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Monday, July 02, 2007
Harry R. Jackson, Jr. :: Townhall.com Columnist
Acts 17:23
by Harry R. Jackson, Jr.
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“Allahu Akhbar” --- God is (the) greatest! was shouted by a man as he swung his fists at an innocent bystander in Glasgow, Scotland. The screamer was involved in a botched attack on that city’s airport. He and his accomplice planned to kill or maim enough UK citizens to release a fresh wave of fear over the nation.

What he lacked in skill he made up for in zeal, and, to a certain extent, he succeeded. After all, he made the front page of most newspapers and was the lead story on most radio and television news programs.

Unholy acts of torture, suicide bombings, and beheadings have become choice methods of religious expression for some Islamic radicals. There have been too many incidents to dismiss these attacks as isolated outbreaks. Only the naïve believe that the flare up of radical Islam is a temporary response to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

We ask, “How is it that a tolerant, politically correct society like Britain provokes people to respond to the nation in such a manner?” This is an inappropriate question that presupposes that the West is creating an atmosphere of conflict. A more appropriate query is, “Why is Islam trying to dominate the world again?”

We are observing an age old pattern of Islamic imperialism. This is not the result of U.S. and British foreign policy glitches, alone. These are the pervasive and dangerous manifestations of an ancient ideological war. Traditional-minded Islamic families and mosques are raising a new generation of terrorists as intolerant advocates of jihad. While I would be the first to say not all Muslims are evil, I would be very quick to add that we cannot separate the political aims of Islam from its spiritual goals. Unfortunately, in the name of religious tolerance, western cultures may actually be emboldening a terrorist element in their society.

This past week, terrorism was on the mind of every American traveling overseas. My wife and I were in Greece during the tumult. Modern day Greeks are painfully aware of the nearly 400 years of domination their ancestors suffered under Turkish Muslims. Churches and historic buildings were desecrated during the Muslim occupation of the land. The Greek light of democracy and freedom was snuffed out during a long night of national fear. One of the greatest civilizations in human history lay ravaged and imprisoned by a backward, brutish occupation force that only understood the politics of the sword.

Further, religious intolerance was practiced in Greece just as it is every nation in which Islam has the upper hand. For example, “non believers” paid higher taxes, had no say in the government, and were not free to evangelize others. In some modern nations non-Muslims cannot even enroll in school until they change their Christian names to Muslim names.

Greece was set free because they mobilized a religious revival along with military/political action in 1822. God’s grace helped them overcome horrific odds and turn their nation around. Many people died during Greece’s 400 years of occupation, but until Greek apathy died they were unable to turn things around.

Just one day after Gordon Brown became UK’s prime minister, he had to deal with one of the major threats of the next decade – terrorism and Islamic fascism. It was almost as though his enemies said, “We want the new government to know that they have to deal with us.”

How should the UK and other European countries respond to modern Islamic imperialism? They should be totally intolerant to any immigrant violating their national laws, even in the name of cultural pluralism. Next, countries applying to the European Union, such as Turkey, should demonstrate internal religious liberty and a willingness to accept non-Muslim citizens. Finally, terrorist violence should be punished quickly and fiercely.

Sometimes westerners are so concerned about giving other religions “absolute religious freedom” that they allow these groups to undermine everyone else’s freedom. I have seen video tapes of the kindest looking little Muslim children vowing to kill Americans, Christians, and Jews.

Christians are being jailed internationally for preaching against sexual sins and the gay lifestyle. Conversely, western governments are starting to look the other way as Islamic groups incite terrorism and attempt to set up Sharia law (which violates their nation’s internal laws). Islamic radicals do not feel that our concessions are olive branches of peace; they believe that western governments are so depraved that they should honor the “superiority” of Islam. The west is so afraid of making Muslims mad or appearing racist that they violate basic principles of domestic justice.

The UK experienced God’s grace and divine protection this past week. These attempted attacks should be seen as warnings. Ironically, on the day of these foiled attacks, I stood on the very spot where the apostle Paul brought the gospel of Jesus Christ to Athens. He preached to them about an “unknown God” that had been worshipped in Athens – but not fully understood (Acts 17:23). Perhaps God is telling all of Europe to stop following humanistic and atheistic philosophies. The greatest hope for civil peace in the region, once considered the cradle of Christianity, is to stop acting as though the God of Christianity is unknown to them.

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About The Author

Bishop Harry Jackson is chairman of the High Impact Leadership Coalition and senior pastor of Hope Christian Church in Beltsville, MD, and co-authored, Personal Faith, Public Policy [FrontLine; March 2008] with Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council.

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New developments in WOT!
Dear TownHall and readers,

I do not wish to change the subject of this thread, but since this thread deals with Islam and the nature of it thereof, I would wish you to check the latest at the Michael Yon website!

Caution: Photos are very graphic!

Dear readers, this is what we are facing when we face the enemy!!

Please take the time to go and give Mr. Yon your support. Thank You!

Religion of Peace?
Hardly -- Islam is the religion of pieces, that is, pieces of your body scattered up and down the street following a suicide bombing. It is said that a Muslim is someone who will kill himself and his children in order to kill you and your children. How do you combat an enemy who wants you to kill him? We've got to grant them their wishes, and send these s.o.b.'s straight to the hell they so richly deserve.

Christians
To be a Christian is very hard. Christ said, "Love thy enemies". He also said "to turn the other cheek".
The only way to have God's protection is to fulfill Christ's promise through Him. That is to trust in the Lord, knowing that we have eternal life and that God is the judge, not us. Through Christ all things are possible, it is our sinful nature that prevents the good things from happening.
Once again, it isssssss very hard to be a "Christian", but it is commanded by Christ so that we may have His blessings.

Amen, Brother!
"For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you."

Amen, I say! One of my favorite calling cards of the Lord. Let us heed his presence and make Him known.

Sig Writes...
"To be a Christian is very hard. Christ said, "Love thy enemies". He also said "to turn the other cheek."
But he did not say that means being a pacifist at all cost. Turning the other cheek implies patience, consideration, and if need be calculated retaliation. We have done the first, many times over, we don't know how to consider the the threat, so we are stuck at the second element. But, mind you, the Islamist will definitely move us past that and hopefully we will kick his mule back to the cradle of civilization where they can seem to grow up and live in peace.

Being a pacifist?
That is exactly what He said. It is no longer and eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. We are to trust in Him, not ourselves. That is one of the reasons it is so very hard to be a Christian.
And to love our enemies. I will be the 1st to admit that it is reallllllly hard to do that. He commanded me to do that, so I do try.
One must never forget Joshua. He brought down a city without throwing a stone or using a sword. It was Faith my friends, and his willingness to follow that faith.
God will wreck vengance as He sees fit. Remember Gabriel. But also remember, judgement is reserved unto God, not even Christ judges.
Thank you

Mr. Jackson
This is not meant as a loaded question, but only to help me understand your position:
You said, "Perhaps God is telling all of Europe to stop following humanistic and atheistic philosophies."
How is this different than blaming America's moral decay for the attacks of 9/11 (and the USS Cole and the first WTC attacks, etc.)?

Peace be with you.

Religion of Peace
One thing is for sure. These recent terrorist acts in Britain weren't committed by the Methodists.

This time the terrorists were successful(at least two of them were doctors) in British society. Yet their heads had been filled with crud by some imam somewhere. By our standards, they were educated people. They were not some illiterate bedouin whose formal education consists of reciting the Koran at some madrasa.

There is something seriously wrong with a religion that preaches hatred towards your fellow man.

Acts 17:23
Excellent, well written, supported with historical facts & expressing courageous candor. Keep it up Harry! The western world is so deliberately dense on the Islam issue that you and others are going to have keep repeating these facts and arguments over and over until, hopefully, it sinks through some very thick skulls. Well done my brother! -Mike & Debbie Edwards, St. Vincent & the Grenadines

Christ as judge
To Sig who wrote:

"But also remember, judgement is reserved unto God, not even Christ judges."

Paul says of Christ in Acts 10:42, "He (Jesus) commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead."

And in 2 Timothy 4:8, Paul says similarly, "Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousnes, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day -- and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing."

This is how I believe the Bible speaks of Jesus as judge: believers He does not judge because by faith they believe He is their Savior -- he took the punishment for their sins and so there is no judgment for them; they are declared righteous and not guilty.

Unbelievers, on the other hand, Jesus will judge on the last day.

So it is contrary to Scripture to say categorically that Jesus Christ does not judge.







Contend for the faith
Random thoughts
Children of the terrorists learn how to make weapons, to prepare themselves to do battle for their twisted faith.They are training for war. What are American Christians' children learning?
Often, only a weak prayerless watered down Christianity. Are we training our children to put on spiritual armor and contend for the faith? The living God Paul taught in Athens is qually "unknown" in many homes and churches in America. (I can't claim parental perfection for myself, either).

Paul elsewhere says that the weapons of our warfare are not physical weapons, but spiritual weapons, mighty through God to pull down strongholds and break the enemy.

When these fail from disuse, we are left to fight with physical weapons. And, with all due respect to Christians of pacifist background and belief, we must fight.
That is, when we yield the fight to the spiritual enemy, we are left to face human opponents.

and yes, Mr. Jackson
keep up the good work.

We need bold writers/leaders such as yourself to trumpet the truth.

These are perilous times; I agree with you 100%, and I thank God for your courage.

For additional reading on the encroachment of Islam, most notably in Europe, I strongly encourage you to read "Europe's 'Terrible Transformation'?" in the July/August issue of Commentary -- on newsstands now. It is a must read for anyone wanting to learn where we are headed as Islam grows in strength and numbers in the West.


Sig
Jesus did not abolish the law; he fulfilled it. There is still such a thing as justice, which must be considered equally with the love and forgiveness that you choose to over-emphasize. By your reading of the Bible, we should view the command to trust only in God as free rein to ignore the poor and the evildoer. God will take care of them; we don't need to do anything. But when we consider this in relation to other commands, we realize that WE are God's instruments on earth. You can't just ignore the commands to care for the poor any more than you can ignore commands to ensure justice and order in THIS world.

You also wrote that "God is the judge, not us." Ultimately, God is the judge of everyone's soul. (Only Jesus' sacrifice - nothing we can do for ourselves - can make us worthy of entry to heaven.) But, once again, you can't ignore the need for justice, which you will find prescribed all over the Bible. So men ARE called upon to make moral and legal judgments, but those judgments have no bearing on the ultimate destiny of one's soul. That is for God alone to decide.

Loving one's enemies is not the same as allowing those enemies to inflict evil upon ourselves and other innocents. I can love someone and still want to see justice done, let's say, by imprisoning a murderer or rapist. I can also forgive an enemy who killed someone I love while still wanting to see them imprisoned as proper justice. Don't forget that we are called to be God's light in the world, which can be accomplished by actively fighting against evil, just as God does. How can we care for the poor if we allow Muslims to kill them - and us?

I repeat: Do not equate love for enemies with passivity in the face of evil. As Doc pointed out, turning the other cheek means avoiding unnecessary fights when possible. Notice that Jesus did not say that we should turn the other arm when someone cuts the other off. Degree matters. Jesus clearly was talking about patience when facing insults and threats, not mortal danger.

cfountain72
I don't expect Mr. Jackson to respond to your question, so I'll take a stab at it.

Jackson was careful to say that PERHAPS God is sending them a message, not that he knows that to be a fact. It's possible that God stopped my car from working last week because he knew I was going to crash it that day and hurt myself. Perhaps, but I can't say for certain, and I would be foolish to say definitively yes or no.

Personally, I would avoid such speculation because it really doesn't add anything to the discussion. But Jackson's larger point - in his closing sentence - is valid. Accepting Christ would allow Europeans to see more clearly the moral distinctions that would help them secure their countries against such attacks. If anyone is blaming themselves, it's the Europeans. That prevents them from effectively dealing with the real culprits. And I don't mean just the terrorists, but also the imams who preach violent jihad in Europe's mosques and the Saudis who export those particularly virulent brands of Islam.

I don't think Jackson is arguing that things are rosy for everyone when they accept Christ, and therefore no one will be allowed (by God) to attack Christian populations. I'm sure Jackson has read Job and realizes that bad things happen to good people. The Bible also makes clear that punishment for every evil deed does not always happen in this world, but we can be sure that they will be punished in the next (except if one accepts Christ).

Turn the cheek
But do it with good judgment.


Luke 6
24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.

25 Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.

26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.

---------------------------------

As anyone knows not all rich men have been condemned of God.

Nor has all who have eaten their fill, nor all who have laughed.

For the gospels sake and suffering is the way I read that, not for thugs and murderers.

Jesus also said the good man would be watchful against the thief, the killer, the thugs of the world and use judgment already given against such sins.



If Jesus had meant not to resist any and all evil, He would not have bothered using this admonition to watch for it from the thieves.


Matthew 24:43 -
But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.



"and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. "

Sounds like He recommends resistance here to me.



re: radical pacificism
Jimmy Carter's a radical pacifist. A nation can not turn the other cheek and continue to earn respect. We learned that lesson during Carter's administration and that lesson taught us to vote in Reagan.

There is such a thing as the Christian 'Just War Doctrine'. Ecclesiastes says that there is a time for peace and a time for war. Christians are also co-laborers with God. We pray, fast, etc. But we must also go out and work and preach and fight, when necessary. Our strategy is multi-faceted, not locked to one mode or the other.

What Christian husband here would choose praying over knocking the living daylights out of someone who tried to hurt his wife?

The PC crap's got to come to a stop. The ACLU says that some concessions should be given to Muslims in public places (re: the recent controversy over public foot baths). Yet they attack the slightest public expression of Christianity. Enough!

C'mon folks. Those of you who care need to mobilize. We need to barrage our representatives, both local and federal. We need to hound our school boards. We need to make as much noise -- if not more -- than our enemies, which include the gay lobby (some factions actually want to legislate what the church can and can not say, so they are therefore our enemies), Muslims who demand ("demand"!!!) concessions in public places for their religious practices, etc. I say that these people are our enemies, at least on a cultural level, if not worse. *WE* need to stand up and start making noise. Since we outnumber these folks, imagine how much noise we can make! Remember Jesus' parable of the unjust judge and the plaintiff who kept bugging him.

Agree with Jackson
I guess it is true that not all Muslims embrace violence against those perceived to be attacking Islam, but it is even more true that Islam is not a religion of peace.

Some say the foreign policy of the west accounts for Islamic terrorism. But I don't buy that. One can argue whether the U.S. is too beholden to Israel, unfairly siding with Israel, but I don't think that has anything to do with why Islamic radicalism is growing. It is an irritant, but it is not the cause.

I happen to think the Salman Rushdie knighthood by the Brits was what was behind the recent terror attempts in London and Glascow.

Revenge killings among various factions in Iraq have nothing to do with our support of Israel; and nor do Islamic courts authorizing the stoning to death of adulterers in Pakistan.

By the way, I do believe the U.S. is too cozy with Israel. But that is another story.

The main reason socalled "moderate" muslims are not denouncing and expelling the radicals from the religion is the conviction that the radicals are right. Moderates may disagree with the tactics of the radicals, but not with their goals.

The essence of Islam is for the estabishment of a worldwide caliphate. Moderates believe this can be achieved thru non-violent means. Radicals don't.

I agree with Jackson that we are in the throes of an ancient ideological battle between Islam and the modern(Western)world.

Mouthing nonsensical politically correct tripe about Islam being a religion of peace is simply grasping desperately onto a pleasing-sounding falsehood and lie.

It does not follow we must declare war on Islam. But it does follow we must divest ourselves of our naivete, innocence, and idealism, for such naivete will result in our destruction.

Correction
Glasgow, not Glascow. My apologies to the new British Prime Minister.

Not peace, but a sword
Jesus also said that he did not come to bring peace, but a sword -- a sword that would divide families from one another and would divide cities and nations likewise. That Sword was the "terrible swift sword" mentioned in the Battle Hymn of the Republic. But contrary to the belief of the anti-gun people, swords don't operate without human agency. Not the sword of truth, not the sword of righteousness, not the sword that divides the sheep from the goats -- and not the sword that strikes off heads.

The sword Jesus was speaking of was the knowledge of the Kingdom and of His message for our lives. And that message has historically divided families as the hedonistic branch of the family secedes from the righteous branch; the mother who is sleeping with her daughter's friends from the daughter who now knows this is wrong; the father who is looting the office safe to provide his now-enlightened wife with goods that she must speak out to the law about and bring down that house of cards -- thus shaming her family in the eyes of the world to save them from the judgment of the world to come. And so on.

Jesus brought the sword that divided us from our old lives and behaviours -- and if necessary to divide us from those who would drag us back to the old ways or into the pit of their own Hades.

And do you remember that Jesus also said about those whose sons asked them for bread and received stones (think the children of Palestine) were evil and unnatural beings.

Sig:
What non-Christian Cult do you belong to? Jesus is God. Here's what he said (among other things): "I am the Alpha and the Omega", "Before Abraham was, I AM", "Unless you know that I AM you cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven", "I and my Father are one" and so on.

Jesus also said "The Father indeed does not judge any one, but He has entrusted all judgement to the Son" John 5:22

Try reading the Bible, it will reveal the True Jesus to you.

Didn't Jesus ask...

...one of the Apostles (Peter, if I remember correctly) if he had a sword, and, if he didn't, to go get one? Somehow I don't think He had beating it into a ploughshare in mind.

"To every
thing there is a season"

Hmmm
"Sometimes westerners are so concerned about giving other religions “absolute religious freedom” that they allow these groups to undermine everyone else’s freedom."

Are you recommending we ban all religions and go back to forcing religions underground? While that has a certain appeal, it never seems to work. I think we continue to allow freedom of religious expression. That we we can see who and what they really are. I mean look at what all the Christians on Townhall say about immigrants and Islam..... So let all the religions have freedom of expression.

Folks
That said have a happy Independence holiday LOL

Sig writes: 01, 2007 11:20 PM

Christians
To be a Christian is very hard. Christ said, "Love thy enemies". He also said "to turn the other cheek".

The only way to have God's protection is to fulfill Christ's promise through Him. That is to trust in the Lord, knowing that we have eternal life and that God is the judge, not us. Through Christ all things are possible, it is our sinful nature that prevents the good things from happening.

Once again, it isssssss very hard to be a "Christian", but it is commanded by Christ so that we may have His blessings.


DESKJOCKEY RESPONDS

Often people use the Bible to advance some private belief. Many have already dealt with the contradiction of Sig’s private interpretation of Scripture with other Scripture. Because there probably isn’t any contradiction, that leaves us with error of interpretation of the well meaning Sig.

When interpreting scripture one must identify who is the audience and what is the topic. This audience is primarily made up of folks from the temples of Galilee along with some from neighboring areas that heard of his healing. The audience is not, social activist, pacifist, the pagans of the world, the UN, world giver-ments, or the local giver-ment. The scripture is given to the individual not to the war powers of the state.

Mat 4:25 And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.

That is the last verse of chapter 4 and in chapter 5 we see he is talking to folks that believe or at least identify and want to hear the Good News. In short he is talking to a closed society of his own and he covers their civil interactions herein. And therefore we must look to the word "enemy" in meaning and context of audience and topic. Is it expansive, Muslims, or limited, folks down the street that despise you. For example verses:

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

Clearly this is civil between folks of a community not the Arab nations as are all these verses are intended to be community.

Now let us look at Sig’s verse on smiting.

Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

This verse again is of a local and interpersonal nature, not to be construed as some act of war by a foreign power. Specifically in that Jewish culture the ultimate insult was a soft slap on the check. “Smite” in the Greek is rhapizo¯ derived from a rhepo¯ which means to let fall, or rap. Imagine letting you open palm “fall” on the check of your misbehaved child in church. It does not mean to assault or in any way inflict pain on the face. It publicly humiliates only.

The next verse talks about suing, again not something that terrorist bother with in favor of beheadings.

Now lets look at Sig’s other verses about enemies.

Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

“enemy” in these verses is not some foreign power but rather the guy down the street. “Enemy” in the Greek is "echthros" which defines those who oppose or hate and are in sin defying God. The verses discribe "neighbour" then "enemy". The contest is not between local and foreign but between friend down the street and the Taliban, but friend down the street and God hating enemy down the street. I won't give you the Greek on neighbor but that it is close promity of community not some friendly foreign power.

Obviously the church fathers understood the Bible verses to some degree including those above and Augustine and Aquinas both wrote on Just War theory and when the Christian is obligated and proper to partake in war. They specifically wrote on this topic to dispell the pacifist arguments of bad Bible interpretation of the period(s).

Borghe

The question Mister, is are YOU ready to embrace Islam.??. WE are not..



Borghe
Have you ever heard of the Armenian Genocide?
Please read entire history before calling someone a liar.

Until the late 19th century, Armenians were referred to as millet-i sadika (loyal nation) by the Ottomans.[8] Under the millet system of Ottoman law, Armenians (as dhimmis, along with Greeks, Jews and other ethnic and religious minorities) were subject to laws different from those applied to Muslims. They had separate legal courts, although disputes involving a Muslim fell under sharia-based law. Armenians were exempt from serving in the military and were instead made to pay an exemption tax, the jizya; their testimony in Islamic courts was inadmissible against Muslims; they were not allowed to bear arms, and they were heavily taxed,[9] although they were one of the largest minorities in the Ottoman Empire.[10]

In 1914, there were an estimated two million Armenians in the Ottoman Empire.[11] While the Armenian population in Eastern Anatolia was large and clustered, there were many Armenians in the western part of the Ottoman Empire,[12] particularly in and around Constantinople.


Muslim violence
I also tend to agree that at least a partial reason for the recent terrorist activities in Britain is the knighting of Salman Rushdie but of course this may be a minor factor. It is also possible that they are testing the waters to see the new Prime Minister Gordon Brown's resolve and reaction. Sadly I also agree with most who are saying that it is the nature of the beast. The main difference between a moderate Muslim and a radical one is the use of violence but their goals are similar if not identical. Borghe and others can either bury their heads in the sand and pretend there is no problem or blame the victim(the Christian West) or wring their hands and wonder why we can't all just join hands,sing kumbaya, and get along. I work with a man who emigrated here from England several years ago who constantly parrots the line that it is all the United States and/or George Bush's fault because of the Iraq war. When I suggest any of the above reasons to him he goes into deep denial. To my British friends (and I have always considered myself an Anglophile): Any of you that believe like my coworker, wake up. Our very existence is at stake. Yes we should dialogue and negotiate whenever possible but stop denying that Islam will never be satisfied with anything less than the destruction of Israel and a worldwide caliphate.

correction
second to last paragraph should read.

The contest in the verse is not between neighbor and Taliban, but friend down the street and God hating enemy across the street. I won't give you the Greek on neighbor but that it is close promity of community not some friendly foreign power.




Just a thought
Pacifism in the face of a homicidal enemy is madness; it invites attack and leads to subjugation and death. The Muslims that preach and practice jihad care not for pacifism, but rightly see it as weakness and an unwillingness to stand up for what is right. e had better be prepared to defend ourselves, and fight to the death to do it because that is exactly what our enemy is prepared to do.

interesting responses
I am fully and 100% aware of the threat of radical islamists willing to butcher innocent people for the sake of their religion. I have come to the conclusion that those radicals are attempting to force God to bend to their will (attempted before and failed miserably). After 911, I heard cries from two camps:

1. the screeches of radical islam praising God for that cold-blooded, demonic event and accusing Him of that horrid deed,

2. the cries of Christianity lamenting as to why God did not stop those attacks even though He certainly had the power to do so.

I find fault in both camps. God neither had a hand in that bloody event nor did He ignore what was happening. He deliberately and with reason stayed out of it. But I am not going to preach as some here are doing. I do not believe any of us is perfect and have the authority to speak on God's behalf. I'll let Him do so on HIS terms, when HE sees fit to do so.

Having said that, the Glasgow and London incidents disturb me extremely greatly. Why? Well, golly. I just returned home from that country last Thursday. And guess what? I and my young son were at that Glasgow airport just a week before AND at the Hard Rock Cafe where the second car bomb was found only three days earlier. Too damn close for my comfort!!!!! I also noticed the UK is being saturated with non-Brits, much in the same manner this country is being inundated with non-Americans. We better start waking up, folks. The UK got a wakeup call. We're next!

Hmmmmmm
Jesus believed the moneychangers in the temple were an abomination. How did he deal with it? Did he say...."Well, I guess I had better pray that they leave and just have faith?" No, he did what was necessary to rid the temple of that which was evil.

Just War Doctrine

SUMMA THEOLOGICA, (Secunda Secundae Partis) Question 40, Article 1 (Whether it is always sinful to wage war?)

Aquinas writes:

....I answer that, in order for a war to be just, three things are necessary. First, the authority of the sovereign by whose command the war is to be waged....according to the words of the Apostle (Romans 13:4): "He beareth not the sword in vain: for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil"; so too, it is their business to have recourse to the sword of war in defending the common weal AGAINST EXTERNAL ENEMIES. (Emphasis mine.)

Secondly, a just cause is required, namely that those who are attacked, should be attacked BECAUSE THEY DESERVE IT on account of some fault. (Emphasis again mine.)

Thirdly, it is necessary that the belligerents should have a rightful intention, so that they intend the anvancement of good, or the avoidance of evil. Hence Augustine says..."True religion looks upon as peaceful those wars that are waged not for motives of aggrandizement, or cruelty, but with the object of securing peace, of punishing evil-doers, and of uplifting the good."

The entire Article is quite long, (8 prited pages) so yes, I have "cherry-picked" the parts I consider relevent to the discussion.

For the entire Question and Article, please see:

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3040.htm


zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
zzzzzz

neither christianity or islam is peaceful.

both are all about force and insanity.
ok, so christians do not behead or torture people............... anymore............that makes the popular news anway.

christianity and islam, horrible and the worst, dumb and dumber.

inventing a god for your sick psyche is ...well sick. get help

good article!
With a president often telling all that Islam is a religion of peace, we need more articles like this. This is a religion born in violence. We need to be clear about this and we need to constantly display the actual violence that is regularily being performed in the name of Islam. Until the public is fully informed, it will not be as vigilant as it needs to be and it will not support those in our givernment who are trying to defend us all.

I heard the whole thing at Glasgow...
...Airport was just a publicity stunt for a hip new multi-cultural hip-hop/rock band called "The Flaming Muslims".

Don't bother with Borghe
Borghe obviously has no interest in understanding or logically debating, she's just a knee-jerk fit-thrower who wants to cry about how mean "those conservatives" are. Straw men and false acusations, the usual nutty dung that keeps us entertained. I don't know why she comes around TH all the time, but it does serve to remind me of how silly the furthest lefties can get.

Yeah, Borghe, the Muslims have historically been tollerant, life-loving people while Christians have been hell-bent on destroying everything that is good. Yes, defending ourselves from their hatred and malice is being just like them.

Try it on some lefty site, honey. That nonsense just doesn't fly here.

gc misses the point
gc, I'll assume you actually believe that, but it doesn't make sense, really. Beheadings and torture in the name of Christ were wrong, while the same in the name of Muhammed were right. That is, to be about force and control is a bastardization of Christianity according to the scripture and tradition of the church. But Islam is fundamentally about force and control.

So if some (or even many) have done awful things in the name of Christ, they are heretics, but if many do evil in the name of Islam, they are true believers.

Big difference.

no diff mike
crazy is crazy man

How about doing....
what the French are now doing as directed by their new president? They're deporting the muslims and that by a regular schedule.

The French have reclaimed their country, and their leaders are now protecting the native people and culture. Imagine that happening here!

Does anyone recall what...
... Col. David Hackworth said when asked about the care and handling of muslims? He said to deport them all to the middle east, build a high wall around it, and after a hundred years, get a ladder and peek over the top. If those who are left are not killing anyone, welcome them into the rest of the world. If not, wait another hundred years.

Okay, it's impractical, but it does make for a great fantasy.

Muhammad's own kind words
"Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers in fight, smite at their necks; at length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly on them: thereafter is the time for either generosity or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens...But those who are slain in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost". (Qu'ran 47:4)

"And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter". (Qur'an 2:191)

Please do read Robert Spencer's "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam".

...
How would any of you demonstrate to an atheist whether or not Christianity or Islam reflects the will of God Almighty?

Liberal Hypocrisy
For all the Liberal Screeching about how evil America is, you don’t see many of them immigrating to Islamic countries do you?

Now they get it
During the first Gulf War I called in to a local (FL) talk show and tried to explain to the host about my experience in the middle east. I assured him that these people didn't think like us and they will die like kamikasis and they will sacrifice their children ,if necessary, because they dont value life like we do. What followed was 1 hour of back to back to back calls calling me an ignorant racist and that people are people every where and we are all the same. Some people now get it but there is still a large group out their that doesn't and they put our freedom at risk.

gc
So, GC what do you do for your sick psyche.
And let's be honest whether Christian, Jew, Greek, or Atheist... we all have issues, hurts,insecurities

Muslim Violence
A few have touched on it - but what really needs to happen is for CHRISTIANS of the world to grow a backbone! We have allowed weak-kneed governments to legislate against OUR Rights to practice our religion freely - while at the same time we are assaulted with Muslims total freedom to practice theirs! Can someone please explain how Muslim footbaths and forcing Christian children to "live as a Muslim' for several days in PUBLIC SCHOOLS is inoffensive, while a cross, which is actually an international symbol of memorial is "offensive" to one or two people! - AND WE, WHO CALL OURSELVES CHRISTIANS have lain back and allowed this to happen!
Apathy is our greatest national threat! I wish SOMEONE in government would read our Founding Documents and recall that this nation was founded on the very premise of Christianity having the FREEDOM of ". . .free exercise thereof." WE, CHRISTIANS have allowed all or most of our Christian symbols to be hidden from public view - while our government - which is SUPPOSED to be representing OUR needs has continued to encourage the overthrow of our own country!
I keep hearing the trite "but this is a nation of immigrants!" yes, it is! But it is a nation of immigrants who came here and wanted to live AS AMERICANS! - The earlier immigrants came here - NOT to overthrow and overtake our culture - but to live as Americans! Nor did they expect American citizens to bow to their culture!

Several of our Founding Fathers made the observation that this nation could not survive without the Protection of Almighty God....It was the Faith of the people in the Providence of God which made this nation unique in all the world. And we have allowed a tiny minority of atheists and non-believers to change that. Our children in public schools are no longer even taught our own American History - lest they learn the true meaning of sacrifice. Instead they are taught to accept a perverted lifestyle - they are taught an atheistic, secular lifestyle. They are taught that freedoms include sex with anyone and everyone. They are taught that babies in the womb are not life and that we are free to slay those innocents - while we allow child predators and murderers to roam the streets. HOW can we survive if WE CHRISTIANS do not, AS ONE, stand up and say NO MORE! WE WILL NOT TAKE YOUR ASSAULTS ON OUR RELIGIOUS FREEDOMS WHILE AT THE SAME TIME YOU THROW IN OUR FACES THE FREEDOMS OF A SO-CALLED RELIGION THAT PREACHES BEHEADING AND TERRORISM!

STAND UP, YOU CHRISTIAN AMERICANS! BECOME ACTIVE! LET YOUR GOVERNMENT KNOW THAT YOU WILL NOT TAKE ANY MORE OF THEIR SECULAR AGENDA - which is DESTROYING OUR NATION! America is a nation founded upon the Providence of Almighty God - upon STRONG Judeo-Christian principles - and we have allowed those in power to subvert OUR wishes while giving in to the whims of those who seek to destroy us!

WAKE UP AMERICA! Because if you don't waken soon, you will find yourself

nolongersilent
Another interpretation of those oil profits is to look at them like the illicit drug profits. Now who is the problem? Remember, the drug czars don't pay taxes and represent an industry that is about the same size as the oil industry but much more profitable. Both are behavior problems. Idling in traffic for 2-3 hours each day with our gas guzzlers is a CHOICE. Snorting drugs is a CHOICE. The other problems are consequences of our choices. We are not victims here. We are irresponsible children in search of grownups.

GC - Judaism, too
It's true. Both Christianity and Islam have deplorable records when it comes to promoting peace. Their histories are full of religious persecution of one kind or another. That's the problem with any religion who thinks it has all the truth and that all other faiths are infidel or heretical. I write this as a Christian who is not proud of our record on human rights in ages past.

But, let's not forget that both Christianity and Islam honor the Old Testament, which is full of outrageous terrorism. The ancient Hebrews seem to have delighted in slaughtering whole tribes as they invaded and seized their land. Read the stories of Joshua at Jericho and Ai or Saul and the Amalekites - and much more. Those Hebrews were a blood-thirsty people who had the gall to claim that Jehovah commanded them to commit this genocide.

Modern day Israelis certainly are not committing the genocide that the ancient Hebrews perpetuated. And Israel should be permitted to survive. But many of the problems of modern Israel and the Middle East are rooted in this foolish notion that God somehow favors that nation, views its inhabitants as his chosen people, and has given them the Holy Land to be theirs forever. While many, probably most, Israelis are not that religious, this sense of entitlement seems to persist. And there are religious fanatics, many expanding settlements continuously in the West Bank, claiming that God gave them that land. This superstition also is embraced by many Christian Zionists. This is at the root of most of our problems in the Middle East and was initially responsible for Arab (and Muslim) bitterness toward the USA. Hence - 9/11 etc.

Until this foolishness is discarded and the Palestinians get a fair deal, we will face Muslim terrorism. We must have genuine sympathy both for the Israelis and the Palestinians and reject AIPAC and others who have molded our disastrous foreign policy in the Middle East. I hope that it's not too late to undo this serious injustice.


my 2 cents
First off - this piece by Mr. Jackson is excellent. Well written and well reasoned.

Are there any of you out there who honestly believe that if we decadent Americans (and other westerners) were to lay our down our arms and extend the olive branch to the islamo-fascists who are determined to establish the rule of Islam around the world by whatever means necessary (they have made no secret of it) they would suddenly see the error of their ways, embrace us tearfully and say how sorry they were?

If there are - I disagree with you.

We are dealing with a religion (?) whose CLERICS not only condone but encourage suicide, mass killing, sacrificing their children for the cause (children's martyr brigades anyone?) - in other words they will stop at NOTHING to achieve their aim. Their clerics go on TV to incite children to Martyrdom, cite their "Holy Book" (there's a laugh!!) to prove that Jews are descended from "apes, pigs and other animals"

Am I wrong to paint ALL Muslims with such a broad brush?

In my opinion - not really.

Predisposition
Plays its part in every voice of men.

Its up to each man to decide which voice he will follow, and we all follow one voice or another.

The tree is known by its fruit, and is the only way to discern a good tree from an evil tree.

Words have power for the winning of hearts and minds and the promise of certain words is decided by an individual which voice he follows.

The voice of mohammed creates islam and its believers.

The voice of Jesus Christ creates Christians.

They are complete opposites.

Spoken to the great masses of all people and the pool of mankind, there still remains the power of each individual to accept or reject any word or sentence from either man.

Jesus Christ never used violence except for the one time He ran the moneychangers out of the Temple, and Judged their deeds by word and action.

mohammed on the other hand used force and the force of fear to preach violence.

This man himself was a killer, a murderer, a thief, a rapist and robber who can also fit the bill of a warlord.

Those who follow mohammed are not being disobedient to the example nor the words of this man.

All who would use fear, violence and threats to force the conscience of men to accept their voice is satanic, and the enemy of God.

God is not without weapons of war against the aim of satan to overthrow the Kingdom of God.

Jesus was reviled, spit upon, mocked and then crucified from false accusations and hate, and done so by the legal authority and religion He was the author of.

The Law of Moses was given by the same Father of the Son of God.

The Law has not been done away with as any man knows, each city has its police force to fight the evil of mankind, same reason the Law of Moses was given.

The Law is as revelent today as it was when first given, to stop the spread of evil doing from men who think they are above being judged and use freedom of will to kill steal and destroy.

Paul explained the purpose of Law.

Galatians 3:19 -
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


If men would listen to the voice of Jesus Christ and not steal, kill and destroy, there would be no need for law.

Fact is as we all know not all men listen to any law, let alone the Voice of Jesus Christ.

The LAW serves one purpose, to FIGHT evil doers.
And is as revelent today as it was when given to Moses.

The only thing that has changed is what a society accepts and rejects for the standards of their day.

Law cannot be done away with until all evil is gone from the earth and men are innocent of evil as when Adam was created.

That innocence has been restored by ONE man, Jesus Christ.

His sacrifice of His own blood for all the sins of mankind is the only sacrifice God has accepted and restores the innocence found in Gods Kingdom.
As long as this world is still the kingdom of men, there will be evil and the need for law.

One day soon, this world is destined to become part of the Kingdom of God, and all the evil of men be judged in its eternal finality.

mohammed is the prophet of satan, and promotes the will of devils.

The use of force and fear is from Lucifer, not God.






Defense of Family
In order to get a complete picture of when war is justified one has to look at all of the scriptures on the topic.

However, one key scripture that makes the case for war is the following from the Book of Mormon.

Alma 43: 47
47 And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed. Therefore for this cause were the Nephites contending with the Lamanites, to defend themselves, and their families, and their lands, their country, and their rights, and their religion.

This scripture seems highly appropriate for application in the War on Terror and against the terrorist and their acts.

There is a time for diplomacy, and even for turning the other cheek. However, there is also a time for War and sometimes it is justified.

For everything there is a season.

Dr. Jackson may or may not believe the Book of Mormon but his article suggests that he agrees with the quoted scripture.


For those who have condemned
The wars Israel fought when God removed the entire Nation of Jews from Egypt, you lack knowledge of God and His unchanging Attributes.

The sins of the people who lived in God's chosen Land, (Israel as its known today) is what brought the same judgments of God that all nations are still judged today for.

The history of the world is consistant with war and peace, destruction and judgment, happiness and woe.

There is no such thing as a unique exemption or example of that history.

All nations have laws and wars, its inherent to the earth and all flesh.

When any nation trangress's the Laws of Nature, and Natures God, they will produce the Judgment of Nature itself, that will not be toppled or abolished by any society and/or nation of the earth.

The wisdom of former generations is mocked today by a severe madness from the beliefs and arrogance of today.
And the simple minded follow these voices like the pied piper played for the silly of that fictional event, but thoughtful allegory.

The super rich men and the wealth of natural prosperity is todays religion and its priests.

The love of money will bring mankind into conflict with the love of God and pervert all law of nature and produce the Judgment of God and that Law...... Nature has already given and is immutable.
(will not be abolished)

The Jews were Gods army to bring His Judgment for the sins of those nations, and the same God who judged those nations also Judged Israel in the same Severity He had used Israel for war against evil doers.

He is also the same God of today and His Judgments do not change,(and teaches all men His Ways) America once respected the God of Nature and His Laws and today are backslidden from its Christian Foundations, just as Israel done from its foundatyions, and seen its destruction by the same God they were once used by.

Israel is no different than any nation on the planet, but the God they once served is, but unchanged.
God is who made the difference, not the Jews.

One day there comes to an end, words and eternity begins for each of us.

No escape from that warfare.

Today is that day for as many as a million perhaps, and none of us will be exempt from this law of nature.

There is a God, and mankinds unbelief will not convince Him to deny Himself.

It is appointed once to die, and after this the Judgment in it finality.

Jesus Christ is God's answer and only one given for eternity.

You and I are our own judges as we make our choices in life and shows the pureness of God's Wisdom.


If knowledge of God offends any man he is offended willfully.

If such words were from fantasy, they would have no power to offend, but because the truth of God does offend men, the Lord of Heaven and Earth was Crucified.

Be offended by my words, you only acknowledge the truth of it all



Thanks for calling it like it is and not
sugar coating a reason that we (the west) deserve to be killed. These Muslims while a small minority are the ones with the biggest voice. I hear not one word from the moderates. You have a point that we will be destroyed from within as the liberals lead us to the gas chambers while the juhadist light the fuse.

gc writes: 02, 2007 10:25 AM
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
zzzzzz

neither christianity or islam is peaceful.

both are all about force and insanity.
ok, so christians do not behead or torture people............... anymore............that makes the popular news anway.

christianity and islam, horrible and the worst, dumb and dumber.

inventing a god for your sick psyche is ...well sick. get help


DESKJOCKEY RESPONDS

I find it amazing how people who claim there is no God can get so exercised over something that doesn’t exist. Next thing you know TH will have these same folks going ballistic over the tooth fairy and Santa Claus.

Christianity has never endorsed violence no different than AmeriKans or its Constitution endorsed Vietnam, Iraq, Korea, Germany, etc.

People’s private agendas often engage in activities and legitimize them buy claiming endorsement of a reputable authority, be it God, the Constitution, the Boy Scouts, or whatever. In particular, just ½ of one sect in the Christian faith engaged in such activity yet you blame God and Christianity in total. It is like Jim Jones and David Koresh are the only people who speak for God. This is the same insanity of the Southern Poverty Law Center claiming the militias are a bunch of killers and murders because Timothy McVey attended one meeting and was thrown out. The question is did Christ tell his Christians to go out and kill folks and the answer is no, so why make your silly claims to the contrary. Some of those same folks were husbands does that mean married folks endorse killing, some are members of the 4H club 1000 years ago, does that mean farmers and animal lovers are killers. Pleeeez let us show some sanity in are condemnations.

Also, when you consider the minds of God such as Einstein, or G. Washington who would ride right up to the enemy lines while they shot at him to give his men courage to follow behind or Sgt. Alvin York who’d do the same, and so many other great leaders and then claim they have sick psyche speaks of your sickness not theirs.

Also BC cited his Bible demonstrating law provides for defending one's family. Well God gave us two type of law, one is natural law that applies to everybody. In particular it is this law that has all creatures defending their families communities, etc. What the pacifist are declaring is a violation of God's laws of nature. And certainly there is no risk to them as long as they embed with a culture that follows the laws of nature. You don't find them otherwise.

Muslim leaders to condemn this attack?
My greatest concern about this "religious" war debate are the facts about each Religious leaders reaction. If Islam is a "peaceful" religion promoting the welfare of mankind, why haven't I heard condemnation of this attack (Or any of the other millons of suicide attacks and car bombs) by the Imam's or whoever is in authority for Islam? To those who love condemning Christians and their religion and compare them with the Islam faith, do you think you would not hear the Pope or Billy Graham voice their outrage if a Christian did the same thing to Muslims? Think about it and wake up!!!

From 1625
The Lawfulness of War had been expressed elequently by Christians.(long before Joseph Smith)

The Law of War and Peace (1625)
[De Jure Belli ac Pacis]
Hugo Grotius [Huig de Groot]


http://www.lonang.com/exlibris/grotius/gro-102.htm


Many writings to this subject, one other is:

Declaration to Justify Their Proceedings and
Resolutions to Take Up Arms
August 4, 1642



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From John Rushworth, Historical Collections of Private Passages of State, Weighty Matters in Law, Remarkable Proceedings in Five Parliaments: Beginning the Sixteenth Year of King James, anno 1618, and Ending with the Death of King Charles the First, 1648 (London : Printed by J.A. for Robert Boulter, 1680-1701).

http://www.constitution.org/primarysources/decparliament.html

talent scout
Well said. This war is a war between good and evil. Evil has declared it and continues to do so every day. Many refuse to listen to these declarations or believe them to be mere rhetoric. History has shown such a belief is usually in error and the attempts at appeasement only makes it worse in the end.

In the past, evil kings brought many of their subjects to evil, while a good king could be a bulwark against evil for his subjects. In modern democracies a simple majority of the people replaces the king. When the majority of people become evil or subject to its deceptions, the democratic process of achieving something makes it no less despicable. We see in the middle east now that democracy itself is no quick fix. It is useful, however, in pointing out that the evil designs of a despot are not forced on an unwilling population but, rather have the widespread support of the population. This eliminates one of the leftist's favorite excuses for poor behavior by a nation. Blame the dictator but, not the people. How do you justify it when the people vote and clearly vote for terrorism and evil.

What do we have to lose?
What word do you use to describe a people to whom God is unknown? It is certain,
they are not a "people called by the name of God".

The statement at the very end of your article seems to assert that in essence,
the people actually do know God, but somehow have forgotten about Him.

You paint a picture of a society that is teetering on the brink of destruction at the hands of a new generation of terrorists and religious zealots of all ages and sexes.

It seems rather strange and a sure sign of the times that when a decision was made
by society regarding how to deal with Christianity and Islam, the choice was and is
continually being made to subject their citizens to the dangerous elements of radical Islam,
treat them with kid gloves meanwhile, Christians are jailed for preaching against sexual sins
and the gay lifestyle.
In essence what they are saying is that their lives are worth much less than a lifestyle of sexual freedom.

The events of this weekend in Glasgow, Scotland only served to reaffirm what is known by everyone
including Christians, a group of people to whom the writer of this post (Acts 17:23) belongs.

What the world does about the situation is anyone's guess but my concern is what are
Christians going to do about it?

We are a people called by the name of God! We know what to do in perilous times like these!
What the culture has succeeded in doing is robbing Christianity of the best and the brightest of it's stalwarts who were raised up for such a time as this.....who were anointed to serve their generation and serve it well.

We were instructed to bind things and loose things and to speak to mountains and to make our requests for all things known to the Lord with prayer and supplication.
The battle is not ours.....and Ronald Reagan was right - you cannot negotiate with terrorists.

Let us believers remember to wage a mighty spiritual battle simultaneously as the other
battles are being fought.

What have we got to lose since all else seems to be failing?

JisLOML

Well Said!
Mr. Jackson, you bring up a good point which is mentioned too little these days -- perhaps Europe (indeed, the West in general) could once again enjoy God's protection and blessing if we really returned to Him. This would require humility which is hard for us. A theme is repeated in the Old Testament -- ignoring warnings from the prophets, God's people stray from Him as they get prosperous and proud, then God raises up an enemy to chastise them. Sounds familiar.
P.S. -- The enemy later gets chastised for chastising God's people -- He does work in mysterious ways!

Roy / Clarification is necessary...



Roy writes: “It's true. Both Christianity and Islam have deplorable records when it comes to promoting peace. Their histories are full of religious persecution of one kind or another.”


“Christianity” most certainly does NOT have a deplorable record.


Rather than tarring ALL people who have followed Christ since the 1st century with the same broad brush, please be specific:


If you are referring to a specific Protestant denomination (or several denominations) with a “deplorable” record, please name it/them.

If you are referring to the Roman Catholic Church’s record, then please say so.



The responsibility for any “deplorable” deeds committed by those calling themselves “Christians” ought to be laid at the feet of those who committed the acts, and of those who condoned or motivated those acts.


"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad." (2 Corinthians 5:10, KJV)




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




Roy writes: “I write this as a Christian who is not proud of our record on human rights in ages past.”


“OUR record”? Please speak for yourself; you certainly do not speak for me, and you cannot possibly be speaking for the Lord’s church.


You might consider that people can call themselves whatever they want, and many people call themselves “Christians”, but that doesn’t necessarily make it so.


“For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.” (2 Corinthians 10:18, KJV)




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




Roy writes: “Those Hebrews were a blood-thirsty people who had the gall to claim that Jehovah commanded them to commit this genocide.”


What source are you referencing with regard to the “gall” that “those Hebrews” exhibited when they claimed that “Jehovah commanded them to commit this genocide”?

Are you referencing a secular source, or the Bible?

If you are referencing the Word of God as contained in the Bible, then the claim is actually His:


“All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” (2 Timothy 3:16, KJV)


Unless of course you don’t believe that God is powerful enough to preserve His Word…



Wordwarrior - cultural war
One of the most ironic twists of contemporary history is how much traditional Islam, conservative Christianity and orthodox Judaism agree.

All three are against abortion, gay marriage, women's liberation, etc. They are deeply troubled by what they view as moral laxity in the world, especially in places like the USA where pornography is rampant, illegitimate births are commonplace, single mothers are widespread, TV seems to endorse promiscuity, much music (including hip hop) is full of sexual content, etc.

Logically, these three groups - traditional Muslims, the Christian Right, and Orthodox Jews - should be allied instead of in enemy camps. People liks Robertson, Hagee, the late Falwell and many other evangelists preach (or preached) much the same ethical message as Islam and Orthodox Judaism embrace. The problem is that all three of these groups believe that their faith is endorsed 100% by God and that the other two are false.

Much of Islam, in particular, comes directly from Judaism, such as enforced modesty among women, dietary laws, divorce regulations, capital punishment by stoning, severe punishment for changing religion, etc. Muslims recognize the ancient Hebrew prophets, and revere Jesus as a key prophet. Judaism, of course, has traditionally viewed Jesus as a false prophet to be disdained.


Turning the Other Cheek
Turning the other cheek is a noble thing to do as long as it is your own cheek that is getting turned. It is much less noble if it is done simply because one prefers to ignore evil and injustice being inflicted on innocents by wicked nations, religions, and people.

Many Christians believe we are to live peaceably with all men, and we are admonished to do so in Romans 12:18. But the entire verse reads "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men." Well, it lies within me to leave peaceably with all who return the favor - perhaps tolerating even more than I should - but that doesn't mean that I should endure evil imposed by others, including laws imposed by a government that seems to have lost its marbles as well as its morals.

Parenthetically, Romans 13:1-7 is the most irritating passage in the scripture to me. If we didn't know Paul was a very forceful in-your-face kind of man throughout the New Testament, we'd rightly consider him to be a real sycophant.

The problem with turning the other cheek? You'll get that one kicked up between your shoulder blades too. People don't respect weakness. You make likenesses of Mohammed or draw cartoons and you get riots and murder. Put a crucifix in a jar of urine or make a crucifix of a nude Christ out of chocolate - well, that's just jolly good fun and you'll make a reputation and money for yourself too.

If this nation wants to survive much longer - a highly unlikely outcome given the current state of affairs - we are going to have to fight wars to win, not lose for fear of offending others. We should have learned that in Vietnam, when we were afraid China or Russia might enter the fray. Now we are doing the same thing in the Middle East, hoping we won't offend "moderate Muslims." Recently it was reported that there are about 1.2 billion Muslims in the world, but "only" 10-15% of these are radical, i.e., "only" 120 to 180 million. Considering what 19 accomplished on 9/11, I'd say "Why worry?" about a few more.

Islamic leaders do not denounce violence against infidels because converting or killing infidels IS their religion. Renouncing violence would be the equivalent of Christians renouncing Christ's admonition in Mark 16:15 - Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

Sig
Jesus said, "Turn the other cheek," - a slap on the face might sting and result in social embarrassment, but it is not fatal. He did no say, "If someone stabs you in the back, turn around so they can stab you in the heart." Moreover, "turn the other cheek" has to do with personal ethics. The lex talonis "eye for an eye" commandment of the Mosaic law was in the context of civil penalties in formal legal proceedings (i.e., a "court of law"), and in fact was intended as the lawful alternative to personal vengeance.

Roy / Islam, Judaism, Christians & Bible



Roy writes: “The problem is that all three of these groups believe that their faith is endorsed 100% by God and that the other two are false.”


According to God’s Word, the only faith ‘endorsed’ by God is obedient faith to His Word:

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46, KJV)



Islam is false, and God’s Covenant with the Jews was fulfilled by Christ.

If those who practice Judaism today do not believe that the Old Covenant was fulfilled by Christ, then they must believe the Old Covenant is still in full force and effect. Do Jews today still sacrifice the blood of bulls and goats according to the Old Law? If not, why not? What scriptural Authority can they cite for the stopping of animal sacrifices?




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




Roy writes: “Muslims recognize the ancient Hebrew prophets, and revere Jesus as a key prophet.”


But they don’t believe He was the Son of God, the Messiah, the Christ, do they?


What does the Word of God say about such?


“Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.” (1 John 2:22, KJV)


“And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.” (1 John 4:3, KJV)


“For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.” (2 John 1:7, KJV)




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




Roy writes: “Judaism, of course, has traditionally viewed Jesus as a false prophet to be disdained.”


Jews who reject Christ as a false prophet have also disbelieved Moses, meaning they must necessarily believe that Moses is a false prophet too; and if they don’t even believe Moses, then who exactly DO they believe?:


“Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, [even] Moses, in whom ye trust. [46] For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. [47] But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?” (John 5:45-47)




who's really in charge???
Phil 4:19

19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.
KJV
If the church is ever really threatened, Our King will protect the bride he loves...a revival of epic proportions world wide.

This is a religion?
Amid all the Bible waving going on here, along with this Christian trying to persuade that Christian that he is more righteous than the next guy , the real issue falls by the wayside.

The real issue is Islam. It is increasingly questionable to me whether this is a religion at all. Jackson is right; we're not talking about three or four renegade terrorist cellls here. We are talking about millions and millions of people engaging in a massive, brutal and global attempt at world domination. They use the cloak of religion, but this doesn't look like any other religion I have ever seen.

Admittedly, I don't know a lot about world religions, but in the little I do know, I have never seen another "religion" that behaves like Islam. This isn't the ancient past; it's the 21st century, and in it, I have never seen hoardes of people engaged in group violence, car bombs, flying planes into the Twin Towers, beheading journalists and suicide missions in the name of God, except for Muslims. Maybe Jews don't like Methodists or Catholics don't like Budhists, and we know that Germany doesn't like Scientologists, but they don't behead each other or bomb each other in restaurants, for Pete's sake.

I am not concerned at all about giving Muslims the "absolute religious freedom" Jackson writes about. In fact, based on what I'm seeing worldwide, I think it is questionnable whether Muslims deserve religious tolerance. I'd be quite happy if they would all go back to the Middle East and fight it out strictly among themselves. Kill each other and save us the ammo.

Sig, if you and your friends wanna' love them, go right ahead.


ARMOR of TRUTH
__Mr. Jackson asks a very important question,as to why Islam is targeting "a tolerant, politically correct society like Britain...",and western societies.For the whole he asks,“Why is Islam trying to dominate the world again?”With that comes another question.Why does any individual being seek to dominate,control,other individuals? Answer:DOMINANCE+SECURITY+POWER!As Mr. Jackson pointed out,"We are observing an age old pattern of Islamic imperialism...These are the pervasive and dangerous manifestations of an ancient ideological war." Ever since the beginning of time,evolutionist,or creationist, humans have sought power to secure,and dominate.To have dominant control of their lives by securing the possessions enable their desires.Sole individuals,individual groups, individual societies,and nations.The answer enabling mankinds ability to overcome individual terrorist acts of oppression.As well as the answer to overcome oppression seeking to terrorize individuals,lies in his final sentence.
__ "The greatest hope for civil peace in the region, once considered the cradle of Christianity, is to stop acting as though the God of Christianity is unknown to them." Not only is that Europes greatest hope,it is the greatest hope for this nation.Judeo-Christian law is the basis,the starting point, of every democracy.Their hopes have prospered according to faith in this foundation.Just has they have suffered oppressive acts,by individuals seeking to destroy their foundation.The circle of individuals seeking to oppress for personal gain needs to be broken,and destroyed.Their individual passions,though delivered in different forms,are of the same form.

Jackson
"Sometimes westerners are so concerned about giving other religions “absolute religious freedom” that they allow these groups to undermine everyone else’s freedom. I have seen video tapes of the kindest looking little Muslim children vowing to kill Americans, Christians, and Jews."

It is not a religion. It is murderous cult.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com

What are you reading Arby?
Arby writes: Monday, July, 02, 2007 7:34 PM
This is a religion?
Amid all the Bible waving going on here,
-----------------------------------------------

Fact is this thread is about what the bible says my friend.



Acts 17:23
By Harry R. Jackson, Jr.
--------------------------------------------


Arby writes:
along with this Christian trying to persuade that Christian that he is more righteous than the next guy ,
---------------------------------------------
Oh please, show that going on, I read this thread and every post, seen nothing of the kind.

Positive critque is good for all of us, but such accusations are worthless.

And Christians talking about the scripture is the age old method to learn from one another.

Has nothing to do with being "more righteous".

--------------------------------------------


Arby writes:



the real issue falls by the wayside.

-------------------------------------------------

Every post addresses the issue from the angle they seen to address it, and nothing has fallen until you arrived as if to save it, and only you post all that can be said.

I would not normally bother wasting time posting on such as this, but the appeal for keeping to the subject I will waste the time and you took a turn from yourself, as you pat your own (self)righteous views, well, it disgusted me some.


Talent Scout / Re: Arby’s post



I think Arby may have been referring to my posts to Roy, and maybe Arby is just not that familiar with the very real (and unfortunate) differences among various groups of people who refer to themselves as “Christians” and the way Christians look to the Bible (at least they SHOULD look to the Bible) to resolve doctrinal differences. Arby did say that he doesn’t know much about world religions, and since he didn’t specify, that certainly might include Christianity as well.



In my experience, Roy has a somewhat unique take on Christianity. He often comes across as though he is what a non-religious person might consider a “regular” (in the most general sense of the word) Bible-believing Christian, but in previous discussions here on TH, I don’t believe that to be the case. If I recall correctly, Roy’s take on Christianity is about as liberal as one could get, contradicting the Word of God in the Bible so frequently and flagrantly that I do not think Roy himself would say that he believes the Bible is the inspired Word of God or that he thinks there is any reason to obey God’s Word as contained in the Bible. If I am wrong in my recollection of Roy’s position, I apologize in advance and I welcome his correction, and I expect he will do so if I am mistaken.


It was my recollection of previous discussions on TH with Roy that led me to prompt Roy to clarify his remarks. When he speaks “as a Christian” and “who is not proud of ‘OUR’ record”, it is important to me as a Bible-believing Christian to make it clear to people who might not know any better that Roy speaks for himself; this is not an insignificant thing.


So if the first paragraph of Arby’s post was in response to my exchange with Roy, I wanted to take this opportunity to explain the situation (to both you and Arby, hopefully he will read this too), put it in context, and give Arby the benefit of the doubt, that he just didn’t understand how differently Roy and I view the Word of God.

It was not about me being “more righteous” than anyone; it is fine to consider me the least righteous person here (and there’s a good chance that is true) if that will help to diffuse the issue and return the focus to where it belongs: on the Word of God, what it ACTUALLY says, and also importantly, what it does NOT say.


I appreciate the opportunity to extend and clarify my remarks! ;-)





Lit'l Bits
A GREAT BIG AMEN TO YOU BROTHER!

THAT'S WHAT WE NEED, PREACH IT LIKE IT IS!!

WE NEED TO PUT THE FIRE BACK IN THE CHRISTIAN MOVEMENT IN THIS COUNTRY, FOLKS, JUST LIKE LIT'L BITS HAS SHOWN YOU!

Glory be to God in the highest, for only HE is GOOD!




Act 17:23
Bishop Harry,
Thank again for blowing the trumpet.We need to wake up and be well informed about what is taking place with the islamic extremist.Stand up against this or fall without a fight.We must stand.

The Hippocratic Oath: 1st do no harm.
Islamic extremists have turned integrity on its head.

Sworn to helping people, the stealth terrorists in the UK broke their oath in their attempt to destroy a terminal at the Scottish airport, or the attempt to set off car bombs in Piccadilly.

What kind of religion is that?

Do they REALLY think they are going to heaven after that? It is institutionalized insanity.

The flaming terrorist better take note of what it felt like to burn. It is how he and his buddies are going to spend eternity: burning in torment, not burning with passion for a multitude of virgins, as they have beem taught.

17:23
Fantastic article,straight to the point. Politically correct is politically wrong. God bless you and God bless America.

Borghe 2:32am Islams Birth
__You point out some good historical facts,but to imply Mr.Jackson lies,and blathers,is a stretch.You point out that,"The Glory of Greek culture was way passed before Islam as religion was even born."While the glory may have passed its binding,religious,influence was still strong in its teachings.While Islam,the teaching of Muhammad,began A.D. 570-632,and continues on today,its roots are from long before.Roots that have been in contention with Jewish,Christian populations since Sarah acted to banish Hagar, and her son Ishmael.This quote from Mr. Jackson's article enables those,bound by truth,to put this overall battle in context,"These are the pervasive and dangerous manifestations of an ancient ideological war.". Historical recollections,and explainations of world events,will never address the underlying cause,or its remedy.Its cause,and remedy,is in individual manifestations that guide their destiny.

I stand corrected
Scott writes: Monday, July, 02, 2007 11:31 PM
Talent Scout / Re: Arby’s post



I think Arby may have been referring to my posts to Roy, and maybe Arby is just not that familiar with the very real (and unfortunate) differences among various groups of people who refer to themselves as “Christians” and the way Christians look to the Bible (at least they SHOULD look to the Bible) to resolve doctrinal differences. Arby did say that he doesn’t know much about world religions, and since he didn’t specify, that certainly might include Christianity as well.
------------------------------------------------

Thanks for explaining
I forgot for a moment why I do not normally step into on going arguments between other posters.

Jesus Christ alone defines Christianity as the Lord of all, and I agree with any who accept the bible as the inspired Word of God.



Harry - Excellent Article
I believe this message will have to be repeated again and again to penetrate our politically correct culture.

Jeremiah - Added a link to Michael Yon yesterday. It's fortunate we hve a direct source to this news, since the MSM will only report US soldier body counts. A sad commentary.

What fruit?
Borghe writes: Tuesday, July, 03, 2007 2:32 AM
Greg
Yes, Jackson truly deserves praise for his lies. First of all Jackson take on Ottoman empire is b******t. When Spanish inquisition deported all Jews from Spain and its dominions, Turkey (ottoman empire) welcomed the jews, allowed them to freely practice their religion and trade at a time when Jews were widely persecuted by Christians throughout "Christian Europe".

----------------------------------------------

And what is to be compared to a "deportation" to Genocide?
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/genocide.html


The Spanish Inquition lasted about 400 years, and has been throughly condemned by all Christians, protestant and catholic Americans.

Yet in that 400 years around 2000 people died with the injustice now condemned.

Compare that to the million and more Armenians who were systematically MURDERED by the Ottoman Empire, seat of authority being muslim Turkey.

Nothing like that has ever happened in any Christian Nation, only in muslim and communist.

Anyone can cherry pick history to preach their own lies, which is what you seem to be doing here.

Not Jackson


Not Buying
borghe - go ahead, nobody is going to buy into your irrelevancy.

Trying to make the average Christian feel guilty for the Inqusition, a closed chapter in history? Hogwash!
Let's stick to current events. Which religion currently inspires its members to detonate explosives in public places? The Islamic death cult, not Christianity.
If you disagree, please list all the documented Christian-sponsored terror attacks in the last 12 months. Anything you list must not be in a known combat zone. The list for Islamic-sponsored terror attacks is near 100, and I'm not counting the recent attempts in London and Glasgow.
Try to be relevant if you're going to post.
I can respect disagreement on an opinion, but there is no opinion to disagree with here. The article is factual. The question is when nations of religious tolerance are going to act rather than react.

over 7000 such attacks Liz


Liz writes:

If you disagree,(Borg) please list all the documented Christian-sponsored terror attacks in the last 12 months. Anything you list must not be in a known combat zone. The list for Islamic-sponsored terror attacks is near 100, and I'm not counting the recent attempts in London and Glasgow

----

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/


(Debbie Schlussel)
Could the Religion of Peace really be behind a plot to murder hundreds of London night club goers? It's just so hard to believe… ;-)

Not the army in front of us is the true danger, its the army of treasoneous authorities in our midst working behind our backs.

The NWO globalists

http://www.swissconfederationinstitute.org/swisspreserve14.htm



Solving our domestic problems
Ann Coultier was asked once what she would do to solve all of our problems, if she were Preaisent with extensive powers.

"Well, first, I would deport ALL liberals and socialists", she said. [May be paraphrased].
The questioner then asked, "Then what would you do?"
Ann replied,"That's it, all problems are solved!"

That's
supposed to be PRESIDENT.

Our domestic problems
When asked what she would do to solve our problems if she were President, Ann Coultier replied, First, I would deport all Liberals and socialists".
Then what would you do?
"That's it, all our problems are solved", she said.

Hmmmmmm
My posts were gone a coupla minutes ago so I re-entered the one.
Sorry!

Borghe re: jailed pastors
Before dismissing the statement about jail time for speaking against homosexuality, please be sure you know ALL the details. As requested, here is a case pending in Canada over a pastor who is in court over a LETTER TO THE EDITOR! http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46257
And I am sure that a search of "Voice of the Martyrs" website can provide you with many more who have been killed for standing up for the Truth - the Person of Jesus Christ.

gc, you are a fool
the fool has said in his heart there is no God.

All of creation testifies to an all powerful and omnishent supernatural being.

as well as the word of God the Holy Bible which has declared the end from the begening through the writtings of his prophets.

And the existence of the jewish people who are his chosen people through which he divised to save mankind from there sins through Jesus Christ

Christianity simplified
To those of you who take exception to Christianity or events that were "done it its name", I'd suggest:

If you want to take exception to Christianity, please tell me what Christ said that you disagree with. Anything else is just conmplaining about a problem with execution.

Great, great article, Mr. Jackson... oh, for a thousand more like you in every media outlet in the civilized world. Fact is, we are at war with radical Islam. How horrible this war will become is going to be determined by how long the civilized world will turn its head to ignore the obvious. Think Europe in the late '30's (except we have a whole party of Neville Chamberlains in Washington - God help us).


Acts 17:23

Again another article by Jackson that is bold and courageous enough to not be "politically correct." Calling it just what it is:an all out attack by radical Islam to dominate the world.
When are we going to put all the pieces of the puzzles together and see the dragon?
Their eyes have been and always will be until Jesus return on America.
We will become just like every other country who is controlled by extremists,terrorists,dictators,etc. if we continue down this road of radical Islam in America very shortly.

Battle Plan for Islam
After reading all the preceeding comments, many of which I consider excellent, it seems to me that too many writers get entangled in specific details and never get to the underlying driving force. When Osama delivered his congratulatory remarks regarding the destruction of the World Trade Center he said, "We have been waiting 80 years for this!" What did me mean by WE? He wasn't alive in 1921! And, what happened in 1921?
I read much of the Koran. Also learned a little about the treaty signed in 1921. (Not the the one signed in 1919.) Briefly, under Islam the World populace has two parts- Muslim and infidels. It is the duty of members of Islam to either convert the rest of the world population to Islam or subjugate it to a second class status. Under certain conditions, the Muslim is to "strike the infidel above the neck" Do you recall the Catholic Nun who was beheaded in the not too distant past?

Borghe
Are you a person who believes if he uses a word often enough it becomes reality... How many times have you used the word lie to describe Harry Jackson, and what is your real agenda?
why this sowing of discord?
If you disagree with Mr. Jackson, fine.. say so without defamation of his charcter!!
thanks

Mr. Cy-Borghe
How does the name calling feel to you?
I could have tactfully and in politeness disagreed with you...but your playing field of understanding is bash and attack. Add something positive... grow up for once.

itcanbedone
it sure is great that friends move in the same thoughts and spirit at the same time...glad to see your posts ;)

Bishop Harry R. Jackson Jr.
Dear Bishop Jackson!

As a former member of you church I must say that I am disappointed in your writings. You seem to be seeking approval of your conservative friends or maybe you just want to be in the spotlight, I don’t know. You very well call attention to what you say the democrats and liberals are doing wrong and you should. However, you don’t have much to say about the current president or conservatives. As Christians we are told to pray for and support our leaders, not to worship them or and a political party as you May be guilty of doing. Anyone with understanding knows that the Bush administration is guilty of lawlessness. This is the major theme Paul speaks about in his writings to Timothy. As a man of God you don't seem to see that. The republicans and these so called conservatives are so puffed-up it’s not funny. They are the most self righteous folks on earth today. You know that God hates self righteousness more that gays and terrorism. Oh buy the way our currently administration is and has been doing a pretty good job at torture which is terrorism too, incase you forgot. This government has a very famous school that does nothing but teach torture and terrorism so let’s not be so Holier than Thou in pointing out everyone else’s flaws. Our chickens are just coming home to roost.
Therefore instead of talking about how wrong everyone else is, do you think you could do something about the situation and that is to PRAY.

Do you think that you could pray that the president and people that serve him could repents of their sins and transgressions? Do you think that you could stop acting as a self appointed apologist for everything conservative? Remember dear friend, that God said he would, in the last days poor out His Spirit on All flesh, not just Americans, Christians and conservatives but He wants to save - and you may have trouble with this one but Democrats, Liberals, Muslims and Homosexuals too. You may not believe this but He really does Love them too and I think He wants people like you and me to reach out and attract these folks to Him in LOVE and KINDNESS, not be so arrogance and self-righteousness.


I believe God has blessed you with a good mind, please use it wisely Sir.

Consider your ways,

I love you in Jesus Name!
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