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Monday, April 02, 2007
Harry R. Jackson, Jr. :: Townhall.com Columnist
Global Warming on the Hot Seat
by Harry R. Jackson, Jr.
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A few days ago, I sat on the set of CNN’s Washington studio. The lights were as bright as the sun in this plush high tech setting. Everything about the office and the organization was very impressive. My task was to talk about Christianity and the environment for a special edition of the Anderson Cooper Show which airs this week.

In classic debate style, a kindly evangelical leader was placed in another studio and asked to share a contrasting view from my own. As I waited for the gracious Mr. Cooper to address us, I could not help ask myself, “How did I get here?” After all, I am not nor ever have been a scientist.

The answer was simple – a private letter, sent to a national religious leader, was leaked to the press. A concerned group of evangelical leaders simply wanted to correct one of their own. The signers of the letter unanimously believe that there was a need for the evangelical community to come to some corporate agreement on this huge social issue before we rush into a national fight. After all, Vice President Gore’s documentary (An Inconvenient Truth) and senate hearings have made this a major popular concern.

As I sat in the hot seat, I hoped desperately that I would not be called upon to attack one of my fellow evangelical comrades. I decided before the program that I would not let the session dissolve into a name-calling contest. Further, I realized that in the name of scientific faithfulness, the reporters could cast me as a well-meaning Neanderthal or worse – a mean-spirited, religious zealot.

I have learned from Martin Luther King, Jr. that the strength of the civil rights movement was twofold – its strategic focus and its public unity.

King’s “strategic focus” was his ability to fight a war based on successive meaningful campaigns. The fight he chose was important but also winnable. He looked for measurable results. King and his team were not looking to be echoes of what others were saying and doing. Instead, they wanted to chart a new course and eventually overthrow the grizzly demon of racism which held America in a death grip.

In addition, King’s ability to mobilize a diverse group of leaders who spoke the same message to the nation gave their cause credibility long before it gained popularity. Through this public unity, a group of relatively unknown men changed the course of the nation. If they had sought personal notoriety instead of advancing a corporate message, their cause would have died with them.

With strategic focus and public unity in hand, early civil rights leaders were extremely effective despite limited financial resources. From the Montgomery Bus Boycott to each successive city campaign or national march, they advanced their cause. Tangible milestones were reached and a growing awareness of the power of the civil rights movement impressed the nation.

The message I sought to deliver on Anderson Cooper’s program was that many evangelicals oppose making global warming a top drawer issue. Further, they do not want global warming alarmism to become a defining or a dividing issue for evangelicals.

As I have stated many times, I believe that evangelical church must take the lead in defining the key moral issues of our day in clear measurable terms. We must be willing to discuss the hot topics that capture popular attention, while maintaining our core commitment to preaching the gospel, the sanctity of life, the defense of marriage, and the protection of religious liberty in the public square.

My greatest concern about global warming has to do with the action steps that people are proposing. All scientists are not in agreement on a course of action that makes both moral and financial sense. For example, Dr. Richard Lindzen (Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Atmospheric Science at MIT) wrote a compelling article for the Wall Street Journal in 2006 entitled “Climate of Fear.” This must-read article would give any rational person pause to reflect. In addition, the mainstream media fails to report that the earth’s temperature dramatically rose from 1900 through the 1940s, causing scientists to recommend immediate and drastic action.

And then, before we could martial the resources to take major steps of action, the temperature fell through the 1970s. Some of you may remember magazine covers and headlines warning us of global cooling. Once again, immediate and drastic action was recommended.

While evangelicals are open to being convinced by new information, we may be wise to weigh the data awhile longer. Instead of launching into programs that could consume hundreds of billions of dollars a year, perhaps we should put this money to better use solving tangible problems we all know something about. With it we could wage quite a war against HIV/AIDS or develop a clean water campaign in third world nations.

Finally, all Americans need to know that we will need an international buy-in to any plan we concoct. Can we guarantee that China, India, Pakistan and other massive nations will work with us for the common good?

I am thankful for the Anderson Cooper program. These issues must be discussed in evangelical circles. My sincere hope is that the next time global warming surfaces in the media we will have a unified evangelical position on the topic.

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About The Author

Bishop Harry Jackson is chairman of the High Impact Leadership Coalition and senior pastor of Hope Christian Church in Beltsville, MD, and co-authored, Personal Faith, Public Policy [FrontLine; March 2008] with Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council.

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Good thoughts
FYI, China is in the midst of one of the most far-reaching and aggressive economic and industrial expansions in history. I think they'd laugh at the idea of signing on to any Kyoto-like treaty that would in any way tie their hands.

If China doesn't do it, it makes no sense for anybody else in the world to do it.

Unless.... unless .... it's all a big scam to move forward another part of the "Blame America First" agenda?

Hmmm...... May be onto something there.......

I completey
agree with BrianR's post so I won't be redundant.
He wrote the words write out of my mouth.
Enough said.


http://peppermintsplace.townhall.com
Chapter VII of Juliet's diary is posted on my blog.

Excuse the typo
I meant "completely", not completey

Bloom where you are planted
That's what the Vacation Bible Schools of childhood taught us; do the task that lies near at hand. Don't start taking on work that you can't handle; it may be meaningful work but is it your work?

The Church should leave politics to the politicians and instead concentrate on feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, comforting the afflicted, visiting the prisoner (including the prisoner of illness, of loneliness, of depression and of grief), picking up trash (and not dropping any more of it), and teaching the children to be respectful, clean, quiet, brave, reverent and thankful for their mercies.

If the Church would stick to doing the work Jesus gave it to do, it would have enough to keep it busy until He comes again. I don't want to be handed pamphlets at the church door urging me to vote against selling water to the United States; I want that pamphlet on praying the rosary daily. Don't give me a rant from the pulpit about dismantling the military -- admonish the blabberjabbering teenagers who are text messaging in the pews to put down the binky and pay attention to the World of God. Give them a reason to believe that coming to church is different from sitting slack-jawed in front of the CBC.

Bloom where you are planted. It worked in Bible School. It's still a good idea.

Path to Extinction?



FOXNEWS-PANEL TO REPORT SPECIES WILL BE LOST DUE TO GLOBAL WARMING!

From the micro to the macro, from plankton in the oceans to polar bears in the far north and seals in the far south, global warming has begun changing life on Earth, international scientists will report next Friday.

“Changes in climate are now affecting physical and biological systems on every continent,” says a draft obtained by The Associated Press of a report on warming’s impacts, to be issued by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), the authoritative U.N. network of 2,000 scientists and more than 100 governments.

In February the panel declared it “very likely” most global warming has been caused by manmade emissions of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases.

Animal and plant life in the Arctic and Antarctic is undergoing substantial change, scientists say. Rising sea levels elsewhere are damaging coastal wetlands. Warmer waters are bleaching and killing coral reefs, pushing marine species toward the poles, reducing fish populations in African lakes, research finds.

“Hundreds of species have already changed their ranges, and ecosystems are being disrupted,” said University of Michigan ecologist Rosina Bierbaum, former head of the U.S. IPCC delegation. “It is clear that a number of species are going to be lost.”

READ MORE http://www.controlcongress.com


Republican evangelicals
The leaders of the "evangelical" movement are Republican operatives. Heaven forbid that a Christian should read the Bible and discover that God did not in fact "hate fags" or support the death penalty or income disparity. But when one does go astray, the helpful TH sheppard can have the sheepdogs herd then back to Republican pastures.

"For example, Dr. Richard Lindzen..." -- Lindzen is the unique GW denier among respected academics. His department has a dozen others with similar credentials who believe we should do something about it.

Keep your eye on the ball
A few inconvenient truths:
1. CO2 is produced by every orgnanism on the planet that uses aerobic metabolism. There is to date no method of tracing CO2 to its source or to demonstrate how the CO2 produced by humans is more harmful than that produced by any other species.
2. Water vapor (clouds) holds much more heat at the surface of the planet than CO2. If you spend any significant time in the area where I live in the winter, you will be quite familiar with the term "radiational cooling", which refers to the fact that on clear winter nights what paltry heat has been stored on the ground dissapates into space quickly, leading to many frozen nose hairs. When the sky is cloudy, the surface temperature does not drop like the Dope from Hope's pants.
3. The concentration of CO2 which is causing alarm is about 375ppm. Do the math, that's less than 0.4% and the change producing these drastic effects is 0.06%, almost as much of a change in the chemistry of tha atmosphere as you could make by peeing into the ocean.
4. It's all about money and power. Big Al & Co want all of your money and the power to force you into a mud hut, kill half your family, and do without any modern creature comforts like a car or home heating so they can live in opulent mansions, take long hot showers, and ride in stretch limos.

The program
The article began with a description of being seated for a debate on the Anderson Cooper show, then ended without mentioning the debate again. So, how did it go?

Evangelicals
liberalgoodman

I am not sure where you get your information, maybe you are reading the Reversed Standard Version of the Bible. Are there nuts out there that believe that God hates homosexuals? Yes, just as there are nuts who believe that GW is going to lead to the seas rising 20 feet (sorry AlGore). However, the Bible does clearly say that homosexuality is one of many sins that are offensive to God.

So, what about the death penalty? Again, you must be reading a different Bible from what Evangelicals read because, the Bible clearly teaches that innocent life is precious and that a person exchanges his or her life when they take that innocent life made in God’s image.

Regarding income disparity, the Bible doesn’t teach about that topic other than to say that the poor should not be mistreated and that we should look out for the widows and orphans. It does not teach the wealth or income redistribution to which most liberals adhere today.

Finally, you commit the logical fallacy of appealing to authority and appealing to numbers. This does not prove anything. For all I know Lindzen and others are in it for the money as are many others in the GW crowd. I just watched the Great Global Warming Swindle and I encourage you to watch it as well.

LNC

China's Plans
Actually China is on track to start up 2200 coal-fired generation plants between now and 2023. They are not at all concerned about sequestering carbon or using the most modern scrubbers or employing combined-cycle technology. All the US is accomplishing by sitting around doing nothing is to allow our industrial advantage to move off shore. China is very pleased to accommodate.

Great Global Warming Swindle
You can find the video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU

LNC

Konop
Exactly what expertise does an "ecologist" have with respect to climate? If you tell an ecologist that the earth will warm/cool by x degrees in a certain timeframe, he/she can tell you the likely impact on flora and fauna, but I certainly don't think an ecologist can intelligently discuss the myriad causes of global climate change.

The Church and Politics
The seperation of Church and State is not about keeping religion out of politics, but rather to keep the State out of the business of religion.

The Christian church in America is the only moral voice left in America. It has a right and an obligation to comment on political matters both great and small.

The US Church has a long history of political activism. The Revolution started in American Churches.

The anti-slavery and anti-Jim Crow movements started in the US Churches.

Us law is based on the Ten Commandments.

Got a problem with that? Well, that's just tough, if you do.

It is the duty and obligation of the Christian Church to "render unto Caesar the things that are Ceasar's and to God...God's".

And that includes politics.

Those that seek to silence the Church and prevent them from advocating for their political causes, are no better than Nazis and Tyrants.

Christians don't cast aside their political rights at the pulpit door...neither does a pastor.

Those that have had a "Damascus Road" experience are unable to keep silent on politics. And if you got rid of us all....the rocks would cry out.














Be carefull of what you wish for.
Hydrogen cars can't wait for em, got to have em now. We need to replace those SUVs that produce green house gases with cars that produce water vapor.

Just imagine millions of little humidifiers driving around :)

Knoop - Do you really think eco-systems have never been through changes before, even radical ones?

Those scientist are in the pocket of somebody anyway (HEY they get paid don't they). The arguments good enough for libards (so there :P)

Here we go again
Remember in the early 70s when government forced us to buy cars that put out fewer emissions per gallon? The result was engines modified with air injection pumps that robbed the cars of power and in turn severely reduced gas mileage. The end result was that though your car put out less pollution per gallon, it took twice as much gas to go the same distance. The net result was that we had the same amount of pollution and burned double the gas. This is government regulation at its finest.

So, even if we were to attempt to reduce our CO2 emissions, we would be idiots to let government set the terms and methods. If government wants to provide an incentive for reducing CO2 emissions, it should do so by offering tax credits (not carbon credits) that reward industry for finding ways to reduce CO2 emissions. Imposing penalties just forces us all to cheat and breeds corruption.

I therefore recommend that we set aside the debate on whether AGW exists; we should insist that the legislature provide extremely inticing tax credits for developing clean technology. That puts the ball in the greenies' court: you want me to go green, show me the green.

Otherwise, I'll cut back on my carbon emissions the day after Al Gore and his ilk limit their CO2 emissions to what they would impose on the rest of us. I won't be holding my breath in the meantime.

Galltegfa
Care full man the carb-police will be after you.

Only the rich can have carbon credits, the libtards want their elitism to be more exclusive.

RE: liberalgoodman
" Lindzen is the unique GW denier among respected academics. His department has a dozen others with similar credentials who believe we should do something about it."

No matter how many times you repeat a lie, it remains, unequivically, a lie.

First of all, Dr. Lidzen is NOT a "GW denier" as you dishonestly claim. He is one of many prominent scientists honest and intelligent enough to realize that that the likelihood of current human activity being the biggest contributor -- or even any statistically detectable contributor -- to global warming is utterly ridiculous on its face. Dr. Lidzen is one of the most renowned in his field, hence the reason his name pops up a lot.

Furthermore, Dr. Lidzen is also among the growing community of scientists that has quit the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, pointing out that the group, contrary to the lies of the global warming scarmongerers, is, in fact, a political, NOT scientific, organization. (Dr. Chris Landsea, one of the leading hurricane experts, and NOT someone who is opposed to the idea of AGW, quit the IPCC, reported that the IPCC as "both being motivated by pre-conceived agendas and being scientifically unsound." Professor Paul Reiter, an expert on malaria, had to threaten legal action to have his name removed from the IPCC report that he labeled a "sham".)

Research is being published every day by scientists around the world that call into question many of the assumptions made by the global warming scaremongerers.

For example, Henrik Svensmark has published the results of an experiment proving that cosmic rays effect cloud cover (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1363818.ece), contrary to the assumptions by the global warming scaremongerers. Mars is experiencing the very same warming as Earth, pointing to the effects of solar activity on global climate (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html).

If the global warming scaremongerers were so sure of their conclusions, why, then, must they threaten not only the jobs of those who call into doubt their findings, but also their freedoms and lives? Until you can satisfactorily answer THAT question, the fact will remain that the global warming scaremongerers are nothing more than a noisy band of flat-Earthers interested in nothing more than duping an unwitting public into funding their pseudo-science.

The bottom line is that the things that the global warming scaremongerers are asking the world to do would be economically cataclysmic. Recently there was a study released that found it would cost a miniscule fraction of what the GW scaremongerers want us to spend if, instead of trying to prevent the so-called global warming, we simply deal with the consequences of even their worst case scenerios.

But this never was about trying to solve any problems -- except for the "problem" of people having more freedoms than these enviro-Nazis think we should be allowed to have.

Freedom of Religion
You are free to practice your religion in your home and your house of worship. But my religion is none of your business, and frankly, I don't care what your religious proclivities are.

If you have a moral code that you live by which your religion dictates to you, that's fine by me, but you do not have the right to impose your morals and your take on the scriptures on me and mine. To me that's where evangelicals cross the line: you want me to accept your moral code which is the same thing as accepting your interpretation of the scriptures. And you have no right to impose your interpretation on me. Period.

So, unless you are willing to allow the open practice of all faiths, including B'hai, Wicca, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Janism, Sikkism, Toaism, and all the others, in the public square and the schoolhouse - and that means equal time for each - just please keep your faith to yourself.

Global Warming
Could someone please explain to me what a carbon footprint is and how you can buy carbon offsets?
this sounds like a "white-man speaks with forked tongue" kind of mush.
thanks

itcanbedone
I believe, your carbon footprint is the amount of CO2 you produce from living your life, breathing, flatulence, driving, house, etc...

Carbon offsets = everyone should only have a certain size carbon footprint if you go over, you can buy carbon offsets (credits) to make up for it. I think someone is suppose to plant a tree or some nonsense like that to absorb the excess carbon you produced beyond your alloted footprint.

Soooo.. you are right it is ""white-man speaks with forked tongue" kind of mush." (its a big scam)

Global Warming-Vanity of Humanity
To think that mankind is the cause, or can halt climate change is secular humanism at it's apex. Miniscule and insignificant man as god must give the Creator quite a chuckle. Not to say He didn't task us with dominion over the lesser animals and stewardship of nature, but not to the point of foolishness. We live in the most opportune time in history to adjust or influence, in whatever small way possible, our own tiny negative affect on the earth. Our brains and common sense should develop the technology and solutions to solve these problems without the draconian and drastic measures pushed by alarmists like Algore.

Nature abhors a vacuum; when conditions change and disrupts one species, another will take it's place. If polar bears are no longer able to hunt seals for lack of pack ice, killer whales will probably fill that void and the bears will either change habitats or die. That's how the world works, and always has. Nature is about survival of the fittest, not the cutest and cuddliest.

Remember the brouhaha over spotted owls? According to environazis, the poor little birdies simply shriveled up and died when their old trees were cut down, ignoring the fact that they are equipped with those extraneous appendages that enable them to remove themselves to other locales, WINGS. Any bird watcher, such as myself, can tell you that birds are nature's ultimate little hustlers (except condors, which are retarded and need some help); they take care of their own needs quite admirably, without any help from, and in spite of, interference from humans. With a little objective observation, I think people will discover that all these furry and feathery little creatures can adapt and take care of themselves, as we do.

The owls may actually prefer clear-cut areas, because it presents easier hunting for them. They seem to be at home nesting in K Marts signs also, but instead of conclusive scientific study we got an arbitrary ruling by judges which erred on the side of a species that may or may not be threatened, to the huge detriment of an essential industry with incalculable cost to the public in lost jobs and frivolous court cases. Typical of liberals' unintended consequences.

Black footed ferrets are a good example of where we needed to intercede with a species whose diet of 90% prairie dogs had been all but destroyed by us dumb humans. I plead guilty to testing my sharpshooting skills and varmit calibers on many prairie dog towns in Wyoming, in total ignorance of the existence of ferrets, generally thought to be extinct. I seek redemption in the fact that the only known surviving colony was discovered near my isolated home town, by my Aunt's old ranch dog, and after some catastrophic set backs (distemper, which was probably introduced by the wildlife biologists' pet dogs) ferrets are now being reintroduced and thriving in protected eco-systems, even here in AZ.

What we need is balance, not reactionary hysterics, nor indifference, in our approach to these problems. God's great design always balances, even if we stomp our tiny feet in lockstep, all at once.

Numerical Computer Models
All of the hype about what is going to happen in the next couple of centuries relative to climate change is coming from about seven numerical computer climate models. Almost every time the IPCC has reported, the magnitude of temperature change has decreased and the amount of time it will take has increased. Yet, it has only been in the past decade that we have had computer fast enough to run the earlier iterations of these models. Even today if you asked the modelers themselves they probably would probably tell you the concerns they have with the other six of the seven models and maybe even the unmet assumptions of their own model.

They are trying to model one of the most complex system we have. A system we do not know very well contrary to what is reported in the press. Just the height and type of clouds make a huge difference in the model outputs.

The models do not take into effect, except at a very basic level, the influence of the world's oceans. Remember that the world's oceans cover 3/4 of the earth's surface and second only to the sun are the significant dominating and mediating forces. While what we know about the world's oceans has dramatically increased our knowledge is still woefully lacking. The larger ocean phenomenons like ENSO (El Nino Southern Oscillation), Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO) and Atlantic Oscillation (AO) have only been described in the past decade or so. While we know a good bit about ENSO we still don't appreciate what actually triggers a change in phase. PDO is even less understood. Yet depending on what phase each is in, changes weather and climate over North America, dramatically.

Remember two things, Earth's climate is defined by change and a model is a small imitation of the real thing.

re: patriot11C
patriot11C wrote:

"... Us law is based on the Ten Commandments..."

=====

Learn your history, *especially* if you're going to use that nickname.

American Law is based on two things, neither of which are the 10 Commandments.

First, is the philosophy of Natural Law from which the concept of Natural Rights arise. The philosophy of Natural Law originated in ancient, *pagan* Greek philosophy. The 10 Commandments had no part of the origins of Natural Law.

Second is the [English] Common Law of which nearly *all* of the Colonials were familiar. English Common Law was born amongst *pagans* and "governed" over *pagans* for centuries *before* the Bible ever meandered to England. Again, the 10 Commandments had no part of defining Common Law.


Our Constitutional system of Law was *not* based upon *any* Bibilical predicate. The entire concept, in fact, avoid(ed) *imposing* [religious] "morality" through Federal Law. It is only coincidental that laws barring murder, rape, theft, assault, vandalism, etceter mimic religious precepts.

They were no legislated for the purpose of punishing "immoral" conduct. They were legislated for the purpose of Securing our Natural Rights. Those crimes are crimes *because* they are assaults against the Equal Rights of Others, *NOT* because they are "sins" or "immoral".

"... That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men..." - Delcaration of Independence



Note: It does *NOT* say, "That to enforce the 10 Commandments, Governments are instituted among Men". Nor were the 10 Commandments ever cited as the controlling authority for the basis of our Law. On the otherhand, Natural Law and Common Law are cited profusely.


How to make up for your carbon footprint
DIE! Your body then returns CO2 to the atmosphere by the worms eating and pooping and the bacteria decomposing you. Then the plants eat your CO2 and turn it into glucose, which then can be eaten by a cow. The cow turns into steak and then I can have the steak smothered in onions, which also consume CO2. Therefore, you will be contributing your carbon to me. Thank you in advance.

Reactions to posts
For liberalgoodman:

How may times are we going to have to read about the IPCC report? I personally have seen it at least a dozen times on this board. The IPCC is no more reliable than anything else produced at the UN. This body is thoroughly political and corrupt. Nothing it produces should be given any serious credibility.

For AudiR10:

I agree that the church has plenty to do without sticking its nose into politics. In fact, I believe the same leftists in the US who promote AGW theory claim the church and state must be completely separate. While I disagree with the absolutist degree of this notion I have to laugh when enviro-whackos claim "all" scientists agree with AGW theory at the same time they are claiming we should adopt it as a matter of faith.

I resist the concept that AGW has anyting to do with "morality".

For galltegfa:

Not only are we using a lot more gasoline because of the Clean Air acts of the '70's, we are also emitting a lot more of the very same CO2 with our cars because of these environmental regulations.

For AreDNmYheaD:

Note how the left wants to "cure" the problem of too much water flooding our seacoasts with a technology that will produce more...WATER! Typical lib solution to a non-problkem that will create more problems than it could ever solve.

For itcanbedone:

The concept of carbon credits was invented during the Kyoto convention on Global Warming. The idea was that countries would all be allotted a limit on how much CO2 they can expell into the atmosphere. Countries that exceeded this amount could by "credits" from countries that didn't use all of their allotment.

The pretense of Kyoto was that this would encourage developed nations to curb excessive emissions while allowing undeveloped nations to continue to progress. The reality is that this was just one more way the rest of the world was trying to raid the US Treasury, since they remain unsatisfied that the US finances over 25% of the UN. This reality was given away by the provision in Kyoto that exempted India and China, the world's two largest polluters.

Al Gore, who helped draft Kyoto and represented the US at the convention, voted AGAINST the final draft. It is not surprising that this charlatan would come up with a thoroughly fraudulent "carbon credit" scam for himself, in which he invests money in a company he owns as a tax dodge and then claims this maked it OK for him to expell 20 times as much CO2 into the atmosphere as the rest of while telling us we must cut back.

The final vote on Kyoto was 120 countries in favor and only 7 against. Gore and Clinton never asked the Senate to ratify Kyoto. In a separate initiative the Senate, on its own, voted 95-0 to reject Kyoto. On Dec. 31, 2000, 20 days before he would leave office, Clinton cynically and obnoxiously signed Kyoto for no reason other than to cause political trouble for his successor, George W. Bush.

A "carbon footprint" is a metaphor for how much CO2 anyone or anything emits into the atmosphere. "Carbon footprint" and "carbon credits" are technically misnomers. The substance of concern is not carbon, which in natural form is a solid element on which all life is based. CO2 is chemical shorthand for carbon-dioxide, which is a chemical compound formed by combining one atom of carbon with two atoms of oxygen to form one molecule of carbon-dioxide. CO2 is a gas in its natural form.

It is important to note that chemical compounds like CO2 share NO common characteristics with the elements that are used to form them. They exist and function in a completely different manner. For this reason you should beware of enviro-whackos trying to interchange the terms carbon and CO2. They do this mostly because they are technologically inept, but it also "allows" them to make the "charge" that AGW skeptics don't care about pollution because carbon is a pollutant but CO2 is not.

AGW is just the latest in a long line of political issues in which politically, economically, and technologically incompetent liberals want to ram their foolish "cures" down the throats of the rest of us.

BrianR
I agree with what you said. China pollutes WAY more than any other country, yet they are excluded from anything resembling Kyoto. Why is that?

This seems plucked right out of the UN's Agenda 21.
http://www.newswithviews.com/Morrison/joyce36.htm

MEASURED WHERE???
iN MY HOUSE, now, temperature readings are:
+72oF, +69, +73, +68, +71.

In my backyard: +46, +52, etc.

Near house - warmer; by my northern neighbor's fence, coldest.
NOW, where do we measure temps of the earth and the universe? In the middle, then +/- a foot, or a centimeter, or an elbow, or what?
PLEASE, tell us, o Know Everything ALGOR!!!!!

re: shubi
That's a great theory, but there's only one problem: The vast majority of the people... well, the vast majority of modern Americans, anyway... opt out of the standard process when they die.

In our vanity and desire to be remembered, we memorialize ourselves through a sort of modern mummification. Bodily fluids are replaced with preservatives and we're packaged into hermetically sealed capsules.

It can take, literally, decades (if not longer) for a modern corpse to "give back" to the ecosystem.

(Nevermind the acreage of clear-cut real estate that is dedicated to storing those capsules...)



Personally, I like the idea of a burlap sack, a 6-foot hole, and an oak sappling as a grave marker.


Correction
My response to liberalgoodman should have been addressed to John Konop.

Sorry about that.

Freedom of Religion
Thanks for telling me how I can practice my religion, I was a little confused until your post clarified things for me. Let me ask you something, if your religion is none of my business, why did you post to this site to tell me and everyone else who reads these posts? It seems that it is now part of my business as you are telling me how I can practice mine while telling me that I cannot do the same for you.

Let me ask you, is your moral code right and mine wrong? Are all moral codes right? Was Hitler right? How about Stalin? You see, all moral codes cannot be right. Although I, unlike you, allow the practice of other beliefs, I do not hold that all are equally valid – that is logically impossible as there are contradictions between them. In fact, each adherent of the various faiths would claim exclusivity of their belief – otherwise, why claim that belief.

Next time, if you want me to keep my faith to myself, might I suggest that you lead by example.

LNC

AreDNmYheaD
You mentioned Hydrogen Autos.
We think alike on that silly idea.
Each time I hear of them I get a vision of one leaking in the basement parking lot of a High Rise.
Someone walks out of an apartment, lights up a smoke and presto! HINDENBURG DISASTER!

People who propose these whacked out solutions to our commute problems should take time to learn the nature of the substance they propose as a substitute.
Hydrogen is more unstable than gasoline and spills are much harder to detect and contain.

Invest 75 Minutes & Get Back to US
over & over, it's been suggested that the brain-washed lemming ALGO rump-swabs make the effort to watch the 75 minute long "Great Global Warming Swindle"...give it a shot, think about it, think about the tragedies of DDT & eugenics & get back to US

galltegfa
You just might want to go reread the Constitution and check if those little modifiers "in your home and place of worship" are there. I will save you the time: they are not. The Establishment clause guarantees the right to practice your religion, not to limit it to private settings. Further, there is no guarantee or freedom FROM religion in the Constitution. So, if some Evangelical approaches you about the Word of God, you may just have to say, "No thank you". If you are a Christian, I fail to see how you could be offended by the Word or the person spreading it. If you are not, maybe, just maybe, it will save you one day. I hope you have a nice day.

Freedom of Religion
I didn't tell anyone a single thing about my religion (not in today's post anyway). Your example of Hitler and Stalin are ridiculous and absurd; such examples are intellectually dishonest, and you know it.

No one can know or prove which faith is the "correct" one, if there is even such a thing. That's why it's called "faith."

How do you know that what is revealed through scripture in one part of the world by one name is more valid than what is revealed scripture that by another name in another part of the world? You can't. You can only have faith that the religion and scripture you subscribe to is divinely inspired. That is a choice.

And deciding whether a literal or allegorical interpretation of any given scripture is also a matter of faith and choice.

You're free to choose your faith and your interpretation of scripture, but you have no way to prove your interpretation and your choice of scripture is more "correct" than any other.

Therefore, because you cannot prove your religion trumps mine, you are not entitled to any more public airtime and taxpayer-supported ink or attention than anyone else.

So, like I said in the previous post, unless you are willing to allow the open practice of all faiths, including B'hai, Wicca, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Janism, Sikkism, Toaism, and all the others, in the public square and the schoolhouse - and that means equal time for each - just please keep your faith to yourself.

re: LNC / Freedom of Religion
LNC wrote:

"Thanks for telling me how I can practice my religion..."

======

I think you missed the point. The original poster was *not* telling you *how* you may practice your religion. Rather, the admonition was against governing *BY* or *ACCORDING* to your religion.

There is a *distinct* difference between practicing your religion and practicing politics. Unfortunately, far too often, it seems, evangelicals *seem* to believe that practicing their religion *necessitates* governing others *BY* their religion.

------------------------

"... Let me ask you, is your moral code right and mine wrong?..."

======

That's a d@mned good question. Which illustrates, precisely, the reason that [religious] "morality" is utterly inappropriate for a basis of Law and governance in a *free* society.

There is no, single, objective [religous] "moral" code that everyone can agree upon. Heck, even Churches of the same *denomination* disagree on "morality".


And that is, in part, why the Federal Constitution established a secular, Federal government founded upon a [more] objective "code" of Natural Rights and, thus, more fully promoting Religious Freedom.


Freedom of Religion
Galltegfa

You are proclaiming moral relativism and I was simply taking it to the end extreme to show you that it cannot be true. You are, therefore incorrect in stating that the Hitler and Stalin examples are intellectually dishonest. They were proclaiming beliefs which they adhered to more than many religious people of our day. If you believe that all viewpoints are equally valid, then that would include their viewpoints as well.

What we do with our worldviews and belief systems is to put them to the test of truth – do they correspond with reality? Are they internally consistent? Are they externally consistent? I have done that with the Christian worldview and found that it meets each of these tests of truth.

In addition, Jesus Christ made falsifiable statements about himself and his future. Those statements have not been falsified (as much as people like James Cameron try to do so). He said that he would die and rise again. He died on the cross as attested to by many witnesses. He rose from the dead as attested to by many witnesses. We celebrate on this coming Sunday that the tomb was empty and that he has risen. He claimed to be God, after which the Jewish leaders picked up stones to stone him for blasphemy.

The Scriptural interpretations are not difficult to make – I would challenge you to read the Gospel of John and see for yourself. The evidence has led me to my worldview and if evidence (such as Jesus’ bones actually being found) ever proves otherwise, I would be among the first to abandon my worldview.

Is there faith in my believe system? Absolutely. Is there faith in your belief system? Absolutely. How do I know that my belief system is more valid than others? Because the tomb is empty and Jesus is risen, he is risen indeed!

LNC

Liberty first
Please show us where, in our founding documents, the Fathers established a "secular" govt.? The frequently reoccurring name of God and our "Creator" (capitalized for a reason) would seem to indicate that they did not intend this. They did not wish to establish a national religion like the Church of England and specifically prohibited this at the Federal level (but not at the state or local level, btw). Moreover, they were mostly devout Christians who would have never dreamed of deciding rules and laws outside of a moral framework, namely the word of God. And where did this "objective code of Natural Rights" originate and devolve from? It sort of sounds like ACLU/SCOTUS doublespeak to me.
Galltegfa-Are you purposely including pagan beliefs along with established religions for any specific reason?

Liberty First
Actually, I think it is you who miss the point. You see, when Galltegfa tells me or anyone else to keep my views to myself, he is telling me how to practice my religion. Christianity, if true, and I believe it to be, tells me to proclaim my faith. That is quite contrary to what Galltegfa has instructed me to do.

Unless moral codes have an objective source we have to ask ourselves why one code is superior to another. This is why I bring up the example of Hitler and Stalin. If morals are not objective, then who are we to say that they are wrong? We are simply imposing our definition of “truth” and “morality” on them, but who is to say that we are right?

Where do natural rights come from if there is not an objective law giver. The natural world cannot be a source for objective standards – otherwise we would tend toward the law of the fittest – which is what the animal world practices. Why is that not the standard to which humans strive? It is because our laws are divinely revealed by the Creator of the world. No, religious morality is not an inappropriate source for morals which is why we see so much reference to it in the artwork within the Supreme Court Building in Washington, D.C. and in courtrooms around the world.

Because people disagree on the moral code does not prove that one does not exist – rather, it indicates that one does, otherwise, who would even care to argue the point. The fact that you responded to my post indicates that you think you are right and I am wrong, which only proves my point – that there must be an objective standard of right and wrong – otherwise you would have followed Galltegfa’s point and kept it to yourself. Yet you did not.

LNC

Liberty First
I was speaking to the leftists. Many of them get cremated so they avoid the worms.

Freedom of Religion
One of the problems that some of us have with the assertion that Jesus did or didn't do or say or mean certain things is that there is only one not-so-unbiased source of Jesus' doings and teachings. That would be the New Testament. Your claim is essentially that the Bible is a holy book because it says so.

Now one can believe that the Bible is the unaltered word of the Creator, and that Jesus did and said everything that's stated in the New Testament, but last time I checked, one cannot prove it using external sources. So, to assert that Jesus said or did something because it says so in the New Testament puts you in a self-validating loop. Hence, the need for faith.

Another problem is that lots of us adhere to the idea that the Bible, including the New Testament, is allegorical in nature. That is, if you read it in a strictly literal sense, you miss all of the spiritual instruction that is there to guide you along your spiritual journey.

I freely admit that to interpret the scripture in such a manner is every bit as precarious as taking the Bible literally and therefore also a matter of faith.

And there's the rub. I believe there is more than meets the eye to the Bible, and other scriptures, than most evangelicals are willing to even entertain. I know that it is futile to try and convince someone who believes in a literal interpretation of the Bible that there's more than one way to read it, so I don't. However, I am as firm in my beliefs as anyone.

And for that reason, I stick to my position that you are entitled to believe what you believe, but so am I and equally so.

Just heard;
Don't know all the particulars but I just heard some FEDERAL JUDGE has based his findings on Algores movie!

So you Attorneys reading this;
Leave you law books at home from now on and bring Spiderman Comic books and CDs of Alice in Wonderland.

Our judges should all need to pass a mental exam twice a year.
This judge needs help, BAD!

Pagans, etc
I included Pagans, Wiccans actually, because there just might be spiritual truths to be gleaned from their scriptures, along with the scriptures of all the others I mentioned. The idea that the Creator reveals Himself to a select few through a single medium does not comport with my faith. If one does not explore other scriptures, how could he know whether there is truth in them?

The Bible was written in the Middle East. How do we know that what the Celts, or the Chinese, or the Eskimos practiced didn't bring them spiritual enlightenment? Would your Creator leave them out in the abyss? I'm pretty sure mine wouldn't.

Liberty First
Real secular--open Congress with a prayer--to the God of the Bible. The first book printed by the U.S. Congress was a Christian Bible. Read the personal documents of the founding fathers.

Galltegfa,
The Bible is a collection of writings from multiple sources which all agree. Now, you can say that it is biased, and I would agree. If I saw the risen Christ would I be biased toward believing his claims? Yes, does that mean that I am wrong in my bias? Not necessarily. You see, if evidence leads me to a conclusion I am biased toward that conclusion; however, it does not mean that my bias is wrong. The Bible is a collection of writings from people who came from all sorts of backgrounds – from fishermen, to Jewish religious leaders. The Apostle Paul was killing Christians for their beliefs until he met the risen Christ, then he went on to write most of the New Testament. What changed his bias? Evidence.

Regarding your next point, the Bible is the most attested to work of antiquity. There are thousands of manuscripts that show that what we have now is, with minor exceptions, what was originally written. That would also include external sources such as the Jewish historian, Josephus, and others. So, that argument actually doesn’t hold up under scrutiny.

You cannot read the Bible as written (which I encourage you to do, http://www.biblegateway.com) and believe that it was written allegorically. It includes too many actual historical facts and characters to be allegory. You read the Bible in the context in which it is written. Some parts are historical recounting, some parts are poetic in nature, some parts are prophetic in nature, and many parts are instructional. If you read it as strictly allegory, you have no weight to the teaching. On top of that, how do you account to all of the historical events that have been uncovered through archeology? Again, the allegorical argument does not hold up when put to the test.

The problem for most people is not hidden meanings in the Bible that may be difficult to uncover, but the plain meanings that are difficult to accept. When the Bible says that “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” (Rom. 3:23) and "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." (Rom. 3:10-12) that is pretty clear; yet difficult to accept. We have all rebelled against the God who created us and loves “but who will by no means clear the guilty” (Ex. 34:7)

On Sunday, we celebrate the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ whose last words before dying on the cross were “It is finished” (John 19:30), or literally, “paid in full.” Jesus didn’t have a debt to pay as he lived a sinless life. In fact the Bible tells us, “For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” Jesus took our sins upon him and became the bearer of those sins, the one who paid the debt that we owed and could not pay. The Bible also tells us “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” (Eph. 2:8-9) We could not pay the debt and God will not have us try, because even that would lead to our boasting and sin.

I encourage you to read the Bible for yourself and trust in the one who paid for our sin of rebellion against the loving God who created us. The evidence is there if you are willing to examine it. Put it to the test and find as I and many others have that it stands against the greatest scrutiny.

LNC

?
Patriot11c: I'll take the rocks, thank you.

Roadmaser: "To think that mankind is the cause, or can halt climate change is secular humanism at it's apex."

Actually, it's an absolute denial of logic and reason. In secular terms, the theory of evolution accounts for millons and even billions of years of development of this incredibly complex system we give the title "earth". To think that mankind can have any direct impact of this magnitude at this stage in the game has nothing to do with man believing he is god. You've gone further than most in identifying the audacity of man having such a thought, but your zelatroy took over. The root of this is the stupidity of individuals not thinking, not whether or not they believe in the concept of a god.

Shubi: The only intelligent post thusfar (or at least as far as I'm bothering to read). At no time has it ever been more true. "Save the planet, kill yourself!"

And now for a bit of original thought about how money can solve everything:

What if (and just think about what I'm saying here, because I know it's much more complicated than this) everyone signs on to this load of meecrob. Developing nations are given a pass on emissions standards. Follow the logic train. Manufacturing and industry are given a final holy grail of an incentive to move operations overseas, where they not only find plenty of workers who work more and harder for less, and reap tax benefits from the country they move operations to, they now bypass all of the sticky assinine environmental regulations placed on their industries as restrictions on production. Stay with me for a moment. This creates jobs, builds an economy, etc. etc. etc. Things grow, prosper, multiply, etc. Got the picture?

With that much money on the line, what are the chances of one of these developing nations doing something stupid?

I'm not expressing a defined opinion, just a thought that I haven't heard anywhere else.

Want to conquer the world? Stop trying to spread democracy. Spread freedom and capitalism, peace will take care of itself.

Will
I appreciate the acknowlegment, especially since its from the other end of the spectrum. I think it's okay to raise your kids however you see fit. But I vehemently oppose you trying to raise MY kids as you see fit. If you think your kids need your brand of religion to temper their education, I suggest you enroll them in a private school that adhears to those ideas. Those of us without the wherewithal to put our kids in private school will have to settle for a secular education for them. But then again, I was laboring under the impression Sunday school was where one takes his kids to learn their religion. Did I miss something?

Hydrogen cars
Allow me to interrupt the Theology roundtable long enough to make a point about this "green" technology.

In terms of its effects on weather and/or climate, water vapor is an orders-of-magnitude more potent "greenhouse gas" than is carbon dioxide.

Imagine, if you will, that we could wave a magic wand and replace all our gasoline- and diesel-burning vehicles with hydrogen-burning vehicles. Can anyone believe that this massive creation and redistrubution of water vapor would have NO unintended consequences on the weather/climate/environment?

will
The irony of your post is that you are so sure of YOUR faith. Because, of course, you have no proof either.

I once thought like you do. Now, I'm not so certain what to believe, so I search for insights and pieces of truth wherever I can.

What makes you so sure?

LNC
I've read the Bible plenty. Even took several college courses on it. I found lots of inconsistencies, in both Testaments, that challenge its authority as the sole unaltered revelation of the Creator, particularly if read literally. Therefore, you and I will just have to agree to disagree on how to interpret what is written therein. That's what freedom of religion is all about. So, please respect my right to practice my faith as I choose. I did not develop a belief system out of chance, but out of experience; however, other than asking you to practice your faith without imposing it on me, I have asked nothing of you. I'm not sure you're asking the same of me.


With all our wonderful technological
and scientific know-how, why don't we just cause a massive volcanic eruption? That would slowdown the global warming by block the major cause--sunlight.

Thank makes as much sense as some of the ideas that the AGW people are suggesting.

Hydrogen Vehicles
I hate being torn away from an insoluble, arcane discussion to address tangible and verifiable issues. But I seem to remember a nasty little detail about hydrogen power, wherein it requires electricity to separate the hydrogen atoms from the oxygen atom in the water molecule. And if memory further serves, generating electricity involves either burning fossil fuels, harnessing nuclear reactions, damming up rivers, or some other environmentally compromising practice. Has this changed? I'm hoping for a breakthrough in cold fusion myself.

will
Quite the contrary, the Enlightenment happened nearly 28 years ago and continues.

I have given you some of my evidence. You make claims, let me ask for your evidence. What is the “fake erudition” that you claim that I make. Claims have been made and attested to by many people regarding these events, do you have evidence that proves otherwise? No, I have told you of evidence for my beliefs – now tell me yours that it is not true and that yours is.

I agree that man’s longing and problem has always been that we want to usurp the power that belongs to God alone. Just because virgin birth has only happened one time does not prove that it has not happened. Nobody actually claims that reindeers pulling sleighs through the air is true, on the other hand, millions claim that the virgin birth is true. Granted, that does not make it true; however, when we combine that with the testimony of those who spoke to Mary and Joseph and attested to that we weigh that evidence. We also look at the fact that Joseph married Mary knowing that he was not the father of Jesus (even the Jews attested to the fact that Joseph was not the father of Jesus).

Now, who are you to claim two thousand years later that they were wrong. Do you have evidence to prove your belief or do you simply take it on faith?

LNC

Galltegfa
The beauty of Christianity is that I cannot impose it upon anyone, it has to be an individual understanding of his/her sin and separation from God and individual repentance and faith in the One who paid that penalty. Regarding inconsistencies in the Scriptures, all I can say is that you took your teaching from a person who was not being intellectually honest. I respect your right to believe what you will; however, I still encourage you to continue to read other writings and points of view. A couple of thinkers that you may want to check out would include Ravi Zacharias (www.rzim.org) and William Lane Craig (http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/index.html) , both are deep thinkers. Craig even has debates on his website that he has had with atheists and agnostics regarding the reliability of the Christian Scriptures.

LNC


Well, since the Supreme Court said it...
...it has to be true. I guess we should all just shut up, close down our power plants, and get on with our subsistence farming.

John Paul Stevens...noted scientist and all-round authority...now THAT'S a laugher.

LNC
And I recommend you read Emmet Fox. I'd start with "The Sermon on the Mount," then "Alter Your LIfe," and finally "Diagrams for Living: The Bible Unveiled."

AMEN! Pah-raise Gore!
Let's all immediately cease releasing any CO2 from our bodies.

Uh, you go first.

BTW, is it even necessary to point out the hilarity of the Supreme Court involving itself in foreign policy considerations?

AMEN, brother!

Supreme Court Decision
I'm going home and firing up my '72 Chrysler Newport (440 4-bbl) and driving around 'til I run out of gas (26 gallon tank) to celebrate.

Will
Try reading the next sentence of the post before wasting your time on straw man arguments.

I wrote: "on the other hand, millions claim that the virgin birth is true. Granted, that does not make it true; however, when we combine that with the testimony of those who spoke to Mary and Joseph and attested to that we weigh that evidence."

I already answered your objection

Miracles are provable. If Jesus was dead and then over 500 people witnessed him risen from the dead- then a miracle happened. If Paul saw the risen Christ with other witnesses with him - a miracle happened. If thousands, if not over a million people walked through the Red Sea on dry ground - then a miracle happened.

You may not have seen these miracles; however, that doesn't prove that they didn't happen. Care to share some proof?

I don't understand your last point about the idea that my arguing is a basic tenet of my philosophy. You are arguing as well, does that mean that it is the “core of who you are, & IT'S INTELLECTUALLY UNSUPPORTABLE.” I am not following your point.

You have not shown me that what you believe is anything more than faith, in fact other than objecting to Christianity, you have not stated your beliefs. Care to put them to the test?

LNC

will
With all due respect, LNC freely admits that his assertions are essentially unprovable but also points out that they cannot be proven false. You come right out and call all of the "supernatural" events described in the bible as untrue. LNC is merely pointing out that you are unable to prove this. You are not saying they are unprovable, you clearly say that they are false and compare them to Santa's reindeer. This is very insulting to Christians. I don't see Christians going out of their way to insult atheists but do see atheists always ready to ridicule them.

liberalgoodman - your post of 8:44 AM

Some day I would like to get together with you and compare Bibles. In the meantime, please provide chapter and verse so the matters can be discussed intelligently.

Homosexuality is a sin, something that is a choice. Yes, in certain circumstances, it is not a sin to take a life. If income disparity is a sin, it is not in my Bible.

Why do we have to go over the same ground over and over with you?

The Bible
The fact that the Bible is the most widely published book in the history of humankind is a tribute to the spiritual truths it contains.

However, the New Testament is not the literal Word of God. First, it was written by men -- most of whom had never met Jesus personally. Second, many religious sects arose after his death, all claiming to represent The Truth of his teachings. The process of selecting and editing had already begun.

Finally, what became the first "official" version of the Bible -- decisions on what scriptures and doctrines to include, and which to delete -- was commissioned by the Roman emperor Constantine at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD.

For those who consider the Bible the ultimate and unquestioned authority on spiritual matters ... fine. Believe as you will. You have no need to think for yourself when others tell you what to believe.

On the other hand, if you decide to ask questions you will find exactly the kind of inconsistencies in the Bible that the centuries-old editing process would seem to predict.

For example: God is unconditionally loving. And yet, we are to be "punished" when we do something God "disapproves" of. Seems we have created a God in our own image, and not the other way around. This God is angry, vindictive and jealous. Does this not make a mockery of God?


Sonny
You have to forgive LGM; he sees absolutely no difference between voluntary charity and that enforced at the point of a government rifle.

The Bible
The fact that the Bible is the most widely published book in the history of humankind is a tribute to the spiritual truths it contains.

However, the New Testament is not the literal Word of God. First, it was written by men -- most of whom had never met Jesus personally. Second, many religious sects arose after his death, all claiming to represent The Truth of his teachings. The process of selecting and editing had already begun.

Finally, what became the first "official" version of the Bible -- decisions on what scriptures and doctrines to include, and which to delete -- was commissioned by the Roman emperor Constantine at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD.

For those who consider the Bible the ultimate and unquestioned authority on spiritual matters ... fine. Believe as you will. You have no need to think for yourself when others tell you what to believe.

On the other hand, if you decide to ask questions you will find exactly the kind of inconsistencies in the Bible that the centuries-old editing process would seem to predict.

For example: God is unconditionally loving. And yet, we are to be "punished" when we do something God "disapproves" of. Seems we have created a God in our own image, and not the other way around. This God is angry, vindictive and jealous. Does this not make a mockery of God?


The Bible
The fact that the Bible is the most widely published book in the history of humankind is a tribute to the spiritual truths it contains.

However, the New Testament is not the literal Word of God. First, it was written by men -- most of whom had never met Jesus personally. Second, many religious sects arose after his death, all claiming to represent The Truth of his teachings. The process of selecting and editing had already begun.

Finally, what became the first "official" version of the Bible -- decisions on what scriptures and doctrines to include, and which to delete -- was commissioned by the Roman emperor Constantine at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD.

For those who consider the Bible the ultimate and unquestioned authority on spiritual matters ... fine. Believe as you will. You have no need to think for yourself when others tell you what to believe.

On the other hand, if you decide to ask questions you will find exactly the kind of inconsistencies in the Bible that the centuries-old editing process would seem to predict.

For example: God is unconditionally loving. And yet, we are to be "punished" when we do something God "disapproves" of. Seems we have created a God in our own image, and not the other way around. This God is angry, vindictive and jealous. Does this not make a mockery of God?


The Bible
The fact that the Bible is the most widely published book in the history of humankind is a tribute to the spiritual truths it contains.

However, the New Testament is not the literal Word of God. First, it was written by men -- most of whom had never met Jesus personally. Second, many religious sects arose after his death, all claiming to represent The Truth of his teachings. The process of selecting and editing had already begun.

Finally, what became the first "official" version of the Bible -- decisions on what scriptures and doctrines to include, and which to delete -- was commissioned by the Roman emperor Constantine at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD.

For those who consider the Bible the ultimate and unquestioned authority on spiritual matters ... fine. Believe as you will. You have no need to think for yourself when others tell you what to believe.

On the other hand, if you decide to ask questions you will find exactly the kind of inconsistencies in the Bible that the centuries-old editing process would seem to predict.

For example: God is unconditionally loving. And yet, we are to be "punished" when we do something God "disapproves" of. Seems we have created a God in our own image, and not the other way around. This God is angry, vindictive and jealous. Does this not make a mockery of God?


Argumentative Fallacy
You can't prove a negative; requiring one to do so is a logical fallacy. Asserting that "supernatural" events occurred that cannot be verified and then challenging one to prove they didn't occur is intelletually dishonest.

it's a greed thing
"Some of you may remember magazine covers and headlines warning us of global cooling. Once again, immediate and drastic action was recommended."
So some greed meisters will most likely decide to start a whole new government department for global warming like they did for the "Department of Energy"....waste of tax money again and again!

Response to many
CVN65 writes: LNC freely admits that his assertions are essentially unprovable (sic) but also points out that they cannot be proven false.

LNC: Excuse me, I claimed no such thing. I claimed that evidence points to the veracity of these events and claims.

JayPMac: However, the New Testament is not the literal Word of God. First, it was written by men -- most of whom had never met Jesus personally. Second, many religious sects arose after his death, all claiming to represent The Truth of his teachings. The process of selecting and editing had already begun.

LNC: Parts of the New Testament are the literal Word of God. Jesus words were recorded, Jesus both claimed and proved he is God, therefore, the Bible contains the literal words of God. Second, we have manuscripts dating back within 50 years of their original writings and thousands of manuscripts that show that the words that we have now, with minor exceptions, are the words that were originally written. You need to do your homework before making these claims.


JayPMac: Finally, what became the first "official" version of the Bible -- decisions on what scriptures and doctrines to include, and which to delete -- was commissioned by the Roman emperor Constantine at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD.

LNC: The books of the Bible were recognized as being canonical long before the Council of Nicea, in fact, there were only a few of the NT books even debated at the Council. It wasn’t like they had a vote and eked out a victory for the canonical books. There were only a few dissenters at the Council. The fact is that there were NT translations as early at 180 A.D. into Latin and the Syriac language. Again, you need to do better homework and stop reading The DaVinci Code as non-fiction.

I have examined all of the apparent inconsistencies and if you would take time to study and read, you would find that they are not inconsistencies at all. However, if you would care to point a few out to me I would be happy to examine them for you and provide whatever answer that I can.

You accuse me of not thinking; however, I have not heard any arguments from you, merely accusations. Give me something real to think about.

Galltegfa: You can't prove a negative; requiring one to do so is a logical fallacy. Asserting that "supernatural" events occurred that cannot be verified and then challenging one to prove they didn't occur is intelletually (sic) dishonest.

LNC: You are right, you cannot prove a negative. However, saying something didn’t occur just because you didn’t see it happen doesn’t prove that it didn’t. I didn’t say that it could not be verified. I have given you eyewitness evidence that it occurred. What have you given me to impeach the witnesses? So far, you claim bias, however, you haven’t proven that point.

LNC

Response to many
I should have stated that all of the Scripture is the inspired Word of God (2 Tim. 3:16) and that parts are the literal words of God in Jesus. In the Old Testament, we have other recorded accounts of the literal words of God.

LNC

Will
Do you believe that Abraham Lincoln lived? How do you really know, did you see him?

I don't ask you to disprove that it happened; however, you have this nagging problem of the testamonial evidence. You haven't impeached the witnesses, so we have to accept that they were telling the truth. Just as we accept that when people tell us that Abraham Lincoln lived 150 years ago that he really lived, even if we haven't personally experienced him.

LNC

Will
You may like to declare me certifiable to escape having to prove a point; however, the facts and evidence still remain unchallenged by you and your side of the argument.

LNC

Aww - too bad

Al Gore's company, Generation Investment Management LLP, is privately held and I am unable to gooble up a bunch of their stock. With this Supreme Court decisionthis morning, I'll bet I could have made a bundle. I'm sure more of you will become familar with the company: it is the place where you can buy your carbon off-sets. In fact, Algore is buying them for himself. (Excuse me: he is buying them from himself?)

Oh, and his silent partner, Maurice Strong, who set Gore up in this farce, is over in China helping to turn that communist country into the world's next superpower.

Edgegroove at 9:59 AM can fill you in on some of the work Strong has going on over there.

will

Hi there,

If you got couple of minutes, Google, if you would: biblical prophecy.

They have 1,570,000 entries on-line. Prophecies are not predictions, but promises from God.

You can discover, by clicking on the right one, a time line of 6000 years of world history.

The interesting thing about biblical prophecies is that about 1/3 of the Bible discusses them and 90% are unfulfilled. Yet, over 300 of them have already been fulfilled, so far.

So what's in store for the future in the Bible? Most of everything that will happen. It's neat to know the last chapter of anything.

What makes the Bible reliable is because what promises of God that have been fulfilled have been done so with 100% accuracy.

Love or Punishment
JayPMac Writes:

"For example: God is unconditionally loving. And yet, we are to be "punished" when we do something God "disapproves" of. Seems we have created a God in our own image, and not the other way around. This God is angry, vindictive and jealous. Does this not make a mockery of"
God?

My question is: Was it Love or Punishment which forced Adam and Eve from the Garden?

re: CVN65
CVN65 wrote:

"Liberty first, Please show us where, in our founding documents, the Fathers established a 'secular' govt.? The frequently reoccurring name of God and our 'Creator' (capitalized for a reason) would seem to indicate that they did not intend this..."

=====

You suggest a frequent reoccurance of the words "God" and "Creator" capitalized in our Founding Documents. I suggest you read them for yourself. The documents generally referred to, unless I am missing something, by the term "founding documents" are the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights.

Here is are links to those documents in that order:
http://www.archives.gov/national-archives-experience/charters/declaration_transcript.html
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/artconf.htm
http://www.archives.gov/national-archives-experience/charters/constitution_transcript.html
http://www.archives.gov/national-archives-experience/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html

Also, here's a link to the remaining amendments:
http://www.archives.gov/national-archives-experience/charters/constitution_amendments_11-27.html

A quick text search at all five of those links will reveal *only* ONE occurance, *EACH*, of the words God and Creator, and those are *only* in the Declaration of Independence. Religion is mentioned once each in the Articles of Confederation, the Constitution (no religious test), and the Bill of Rights (First Amendment). It is not mentioned at all in the remaining Amendments.

Sorry, sir, ONE occurance of EACH word is *HARDLY* frequent *OR* recoccurring.

(You *do* know what "frequent" and "reoccurring" *mean*, right??)

Thus, the glaring *LACK* of such references supports the assertion of a secular (re: non-religious) founding.


Additionally, here is Benjamin Franklin's suggested Articles of Confederation:
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/contcong/07-21-75.htm

The words "God", "Creator", and "Religion" do not occur at all.

... and John Dickinson's draft:
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/contcong/07-12-76.htm.

"God" and "Creatod" do not occur at all and the word "Religion" occurs in the same context as in the ratified Articles of Confederation.


Thus far, the words "God" and "Creator" were used quite *IN*frequently and with very little reoccurance.


Just for completeness, however, here is a link to the Federalist Papers:
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/federal/fed.htm

"God" (capitalized) is used only once (in Federalist 43). "God", without caps occurs once in Federalist 18. "Creator" does not occur at all. Again, hardly "frequent" or "reoccurring".

Still, just for completeness, here are links to James Madison's notes on the Debates in the Federal Convention, Rufus King's notes, and Alexander Hamilton's notes respectively:
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/debates/debcont.htm
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/const/king.htm
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/const/const05.htm

The words "God" and "Creator" are noted twice and once, respectively, by Madison and not at all by either King or Hamilton. Again, hardly "frequent" or "reoccurring"


Indeed, there are far *TOO* few occassions where those words and other religious references are used in our Founding documents, drafts, debates, and pamphlets to support a NON-secular founding as you suggest.



For additional note, please refer to the Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11. It was unimously approved by the Senate and signed by President John Adams, June 10, 1797.
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796t.htm

Article 11:
"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."


QUESTION: IF the United States was not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion, but *WAS* founded as a NON-secular Government (as you suggest), which religion, pray tell, *WAS* it founded on?



----------------------------------------


"... They did not wish to establish a national religion like the Church of England and specifically prohibited this at the Federal level (but not at the state or local level, btw)..."

=====

By the way, you *DO* know why the *DIDN'T* prohibit States from having official religions don't you? Here's a hint, it's called "compromise".

Madison's originally proposed Bill of Rights, June 7, 1789, would have altered Article I, Section X of the Constitution to insert, "No State shall violate the equal rights of conscience, or the freedom of the press, or the trial by jury in criminal cases." (In essence, the "rights of conscience" are the basic rights to believe, act, and worship according to one's own conscience.)

http://www.constitution.org/bor/amd_jmad.htm


In fact, the First Amendment was, in many ways, a reflection of Thomas Jefferson's proposed "Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom". Thus, the original intent of the Bill of Rights *WAS*, indeed, to establish religious freedom throughout the States. However, with the number of States, including the heavily influential Virginia, maintaining official State religions *THAT* would not fly.

To help get it passed the Freedom-of-Religion-ists compromised with the State-Sponsored-Religion-ists to establish Federal Freedom of Religion *without* interfering with the States.

In other words, if they *COULD* have prohibited Official State Religions they *WOULD* have.

Will - Sonny - Creators
Will,

OK, why should I believe your account of how things happened? Just because you dreamed this scenario up in your head and wrote it on this post? How do you know that this is the way things happened? Do you have proof?

How about this? God creates man and gives them a very good place to live and one rule to keep. Man can’t keep the rule and rebels against God. God both punishes man and protects him by expelling him from that place to live. Man continues in deeper rebellion and eventually we have wars, murder, rape, and all kinds of other nasty problems. God comes to earth in the form of man to die for the sins of man at the hands of man. After three days in the grave He rose from the dead to show the world that sin and death had been conquered.

You may claim that these are fictional stories, but one day the reality will strike and hopefully, it will not be too late. “It is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment” (Heb. 9:27). If the Bible were up to man to write, it would have been written far differently.

LNC

LNG
A soft answer turneth away wrath.

I commend you on your replies to your antagonists today. I carefully read each one and you are as good as my Pastor, and he is very, very good. They are simply stated, yet packed full of the Truth, and such a contrast to the cynical accusations and false assertion of your adversaries.

This is what happens when teachers who know nothing of the Word, inculcate their students with their disdain, disbelief and even hatred. I run across empty people such as these on a regular basis, filled with "facts" given them by non-believers and convinced we are fools, immersed in fantasy and myth.

Will, there are so many avowed atheists who have investigated Christ and been converted, they are almost too many to count. I know of few Christians who have gone the other way, from the Light to the darkness.

Click on this link, if you like. What you think you know is actually nothing but falsehoods and half-truths and you really shouldn't try to argue the Bible with someone such as LNG. You make yourself look silly indeed.

http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/ATRJ/truth/ATRJ1203-EVPDF/ATRJ1203-EV-1.pdf

Sonny
That's interesting about Al Gore's company and his ties to Maurice Strong. Maurice Strong is a socialist pig, IMO.

There is a video I found once on google video by one of the Hunts that talked about him and his UN activities. It wasn't positive. Good video though.

Have you heard about the Carlyle Group? Sounds like the same kind of deal.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3995.htm

UNCED Earth Summit Meeting
Here's the video about Maurice Strong, if you're interested:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6642758020554799808&q=maurice+strong&hl=en

will

I am not much of a gambling man, but if someone had made 300 predictions and it turned out to be true, isn't it highly likely that that further predictions would highly likely to be true also?

Emmet Fox
Galltegfa,

I went to the website for Emmet Fox and read some of his works. He is basically teaching a combination of two old heresies – Gnosticism and New Age philosophy. Gnosticism is the belief in secret knowledge (gnosis means to know) and this philosophy was condemned in the early periods of the Christian church. Many believe that the Apostle John was writing against an early form of Gnosticism in his epistles (1, 2, & 3 John).

The New Age movement is a repackaging of eastern philosophies and religions which are monistic; in other words, God is in all and is all. These religions teach that the power is within us and we just need to realize and tap into that power.

The other heresy that Fox teaches on his site is that evil is not real. If that is the case, what then do we say to the rape victim or the victim of child abuse? Do we tell them that it is illusion? If, as Fox tells us that we must mind our own business, then Mother Theresa was a devil rather than a saint, for she was always meddling in the lives of the poor and destitute.

The problem with this guy and his teaching is that when you truly follow it, which I don’t believe that even he did (otherwise he wouldn’t have written all this stuff and meddled in other people’s business), it leads to a very selfish and self-centered existence.

The Bible teaches the opposite, that we are to follow the Great Commission of going into all the world making disciples and teaching all that Jesus commanded. The two greatest commandments are to love God and to love others. We love God by telling others about His Son, and we love others by telling them about eternal life by trusting in Jesus’ death for our sins and resurrection. That is what the Bible calls Good News.

LNC

No circular arguments revealed
Will,

If you are going to make a claim, please back it up. You didn’t tell me where I made a circular argument and I cannot just take your word that I did.

First, most of the English translations that we have now were translated from manuscripts which were copies of the autographs and written in the same language. There are also Greek translations of the Hebrew text and Latin translations of the Greek and Aramaic text. However, we have manuscripts that date very close to the originals and the sheer number of manuscripts give high confidence that what we have is, with minor exceptions, that which was originally written.

How do you know that any Scripture that I quote probably means something different than whatever the original was? Do you have some special insight?

God is the only being whose existence is within Himself. In other words He is eternal, therefore uncaused. Let me ask you a question. The universe had a beginning where matter came from nothing (basic physics), how did it get here? Do you have a fairytale that you would like to tell me about how you think something came from nothing? And don’t tell me that something has existed forever and ever, because science tells us that matter had a beginning and will have an end. Any clues?

LNC

An Inconvenient Truth
"An inconvenient truth" for conservatives who are still laughing at global warming caused by industrial emissions: today the Supreme Court made a ruling which is essentially against conservatives and the Bush administration. Google for details.

lilly

The decision was NOT against the Conservatives. The Bush administration has been trying to save you and the rest of us a boatload of taxes for project that has a very doubtful outcome.

Oh, I forgot. You LIKE to pay taxes. I guess you have too much money and just don't know what to do with it. It must be nice to be in that position. You must be in the same position as Al Gore. You had better be because if the environmentalist get everything you want, we all
will be paying enough taxes so that it will put enough money in the pockets of the environments so they can all have a 20,000 sq.ft house just like their idol.

LNC

What "will" cannot accept is that the Bible was written by men who were guided by the Holy Spirit. The concept of the Trinity is too much for him to grasp. The only thing they can do is to frame their arguments from a "human" standpoint, rather than from a "divine" one. After all, the Bible is a spiritual book meant for spiritual discernment, not human reasoning.

I subscribe to some of the publications that atheists get and I have seen how they are taught to frame their arguments against anything that has to do with the Bible. They wouldn't be atheists unless they were taught to be one.

What I regret is that most of us were skeptics at one time or another, but events in our lives indicated there was a better way of doing things: not our way, but God's way.

Just a thought
Why doesn't the US government use the AlGore method. Instead of financial aid to countries, instead we will buy their carbon consumption that they are, of course, not using. Thereby the USA becomes carbon neutral and provides aid to the "disadvantaged" countries without any further drain on the budget.
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