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Monday, December 04, 2006
Harry R. Jackson, Jr. :: Townhall.com Columnist
Trend Setters or Sell Outs: Obama, Warren , and Brownback
by Harry R. Jackson, Jr.
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The so-called “controversy” over Pastor Rick Warren’s invitation for Senator Barack Obama to join Senator Brownback and others at a church sponsored summit on HIV/AIDS Conference concerns me. It seems to me that liberals are much more unified in their public views than conservatives these days. Once again our attempts at internal, conservative self-policing have become public news. Warren’s attempt to solve one of the world’s most troubling health problems should have been applauded by everyone.

During the last few years, I personally have felt the sting of this kind of criticism. I have a heart to bring white evangelical leaders into a working coalition with black church leaders. Yet, as I have spoken with some civil rights leaders, I have been labeled as an “Uncle Tom” because I have interacted with the Bush White House. On the other hand, some conservatives have wondered about me because I have spoken on the same panel with Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Louis Farrakhan, and others.

Warren’s gesture of inviting politicians from both parties to speak at his summit makes sense to me. This may be the beginning of a new dialogue between evangelicals and the Democratic Party. We have to view the moves that men like Warren make as evangelistic in nature. Warren has a moral agenda that should embraced by every human on the planet, at the same time he never ceases attempting to win souls and to present his message to new audiences.

I believe that Warren’s decision to have Obama speak at his conference is a response to the unanswered questions from November 2006: “What should Bible believing Christians do about the last election?” “How should we feel about the way we were stereotyped by both the press and the major parties?” Many of us are still confused about what happened; while other Christians seemingly write off the fact the nation is in a major transition.

The results produce a variety of conclusions. The most obvious one is that Americans are desperate for a change. Further, they are tired of double dealing, hypocritical politicians of all parties, genders, and races. Just like George W. Bush’s victory of two years ago, the Democrats are claiming a mandate that may not really exist. Fifteen races in the House of Representatives were decided by less than 5,000 votes. In addition, Jim Webb’s Senate victory, which determined that house’s majority, was won by only 9,000 votes. To call these victories a “mandate” is more than exaggeration. It verges on the insane.

My first thought about the election was very simplistic: American’s have abandoned God’s agenda. In my mind, both parties were to blame to some extent. I felt taken for granted by the Republicans and ignored by the Democrats. On the other hand, the scriptures declared that God puts governmental leaders in power (1 Samuel 2:8, Romans 13:1, etc.).Therefore, I eventually concluded that God intends to use the current political “dream team,” even if it feels like a hellish nightmare.

Millions of Christians have defined God’s moral issues as only protection of marriage, religious liberty, prevention of judicial activism, and limiting the massive numbers of abortions. While these things are still important, the culture needs for us to give them practical guide lines for living. Churches and Christian leaders are needed to discuss the morality of war, how to deal with poverty, world hunger

Christians may have actually scored a huge victory in this last election. The victory may not have been in winning certain specific initiatives or putting our favorite candidates in to office. The victory may have been in beginning a much needed process of political change and reform involving both parties.

Many moderate Democrats were elected this year. These candidates often espoused very socially conservative or religious views. The New York Times is citing exit poll statistics which suggest that the “God gap” is closing between the parties. Since the religious vote is still in play, the “anti-God” wing of neither party will be given an unchecked reign these next two years. In fact, the new leadership will be on its best behavior.

The Democrats are making lots of religious speeches and allusions to their values. Fortunately, they have not gotten a tight set of religious talking points together. Their stumbling forays into “religious speak” means that savvy evangelicals can help shape “Democratic religion” if they act now.

Barack Obama has been anointed as their “spiritual leader” on their journey to define themselves. Like many people of our generation, neither Obama nor Bush has been thoroughly tutored in Christian world theology. Church attendance and casually Bible reading are not enough to create solid Christian world leaders. Although Obama’s current stance on abortion, gay rights, and other issues are very flawed; he can be influenced by patient debate and discussion.

Warren was right to ask Obama to speak at the conference. Over the years, I have used this tactic to begin a dialogue with several historic adversaries. Very few people are so hardened that can enjoy your hospitality and then go out and bad mouth you. Religious people from the left need to be exposed to the real conservative movement – instead of PR images and demeaning characterizations. In the Saddleback conference environment, our brightest thinkers reasoned with a man who was motivated to win our support long term.

Realistically, Obama did no damage to the conference audience which consisted of over 2,100 Bible teachers, pastors, and social activists. If that group could be converted to lukewarm Christianity in just an hour, we’re in worse trouble than any of us could have imagined!

Warren’s invitation signaled openness on the part of a new generation of evangelical leaders to create new alliances. World poverty, clean water, the Darfur crisis and the AIDS epidemic may be new frontiers for social action that can help transform our world.

Christians are called to win the world. Let’s influence both their hearts and minds!

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About The Author

Bishop Harry Jackson is chairman of the High Impact Leadership Coalition and senior pastor of Hope Christian Church in Beltsville, MD, and co-authored, Personal Faith, Public Policy [FrontLine; March 2008] with Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council.

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it is simple
think for yourself. throw away partisan labels. make sure law makers adhere to the constitution and the bill of rights. do what is best for the local government, state government and federal government. if someone is not representing you in government, vote them out.
most of all participate!!! with phone calls, emails, demonstrations, ect.

Do we look to politics
for any sort of salvation at all? Politics, dear fellow TH reader, ought not be our religion. We leave that to the other side. But we do have to live in the real world, and we have to plan for the future. How do we learn to do that? Such lessons are taught by the past.

In the early 1950s, when the dems took the house and held it for 40 years, it took them until the late '60s to take on the treacherous and profligate character that they have now. When the Republicans took the House in 1994, they had been transformed before the change of the decade into politics-as-usual pigs-at-the-trough. Well, things move faster in the future, and this holds for corruption too. Let's hope that "conservative" means just that, and is able to stave off the rot -- or learn how to be whole, again.

The Republicans took power 12 years ago, as the party of ideas. And they were. The Dems have taken power, somehow, representing nothing but the idea of opposition. This, weirdly, bodes ill for both sides.

The good news is that Americans seem to have rejected the bread and circus earmarks of the imperial senators. The bad news is that the barbarians are at the gate while the Saturnalia proceeds apace.

I'm Republican because I could never be a member of the betrayal slavery abortion drug gaymarriage party. So I'm in the fatcat hypocrite party instead. Seems, somehow, like the lesser of evils. I'm a Bushman because the alternative is to be a clintongorekerrista, and I'd rather get a tattoo of a snake on my face, than be that. My loyalty to Bush is equivocal. He's not everything I might hope. But I have suffered enough disappointment, by now, that my expectations are considerably lowered -- both of others, and of myself.

So what? Revolution indeed. And a page out of the other team's playbook. Is the MSM biased unto bigotry? Well, don't the Republicans have all the money? Why don't they buy the corporations and fire the management and install malleable drones who will be compliant to the ideological demands of the right? Is there something wrong with that plan? Cuz it's what the Left, somehow, has done. Where did they get all that money? Clearly they have been insufficiently oppressed. Yet another failure of Homeland Security.

And in owning the Media, the left has come to possess Congress. The constant drumming on two simple themes -- Bush is a chimp, and the war is lost -- has changed the biorhythms of the majority of Americans. Like a covey of women all living in the same house, our menstrual cycles have synchronized. The moon will rule us. We are a harmonious one with the left now. And by "we," I mean we -- since the majority has the right to call itself by the pronoun of first personal plurality.

Revolution, then. Not being selfish and corrupt. Iron in the soul. A game plan and the resolve to follow through. Sort of like what the left did, in taking over the courts and the schools and the media.

Simple.

J
http://forgottenprophets.blogspot.com/

YES AND NO
I agree that Bible-believing Christians didn't lose as much as noted on face value. However I adamantley disagree about Rick Warren's invite to Obama. Do you really believe putting him in that environment will change his political positons? Yes, he needs to be born-again, and believe the gospel, thereby getting God's point of view, but I don't think him rubbing shoulders with Christian comprimise will win him to the 'true" Jesus! The focus of a Bible centered church is Jesus Christ, it's message is "the gospel(all have sinned, Jesus paid the price, we must recieve Him), it's mission is "make disciples. Mr. Obama will see a church that has lost this, so what will he be won to? It doesn't mean a church should ignore the social issues of the day, but neither should they be given such a priority as pastor Warren has!

wow
To think the elections past means a new and greater advance for or chance for christians is well like Alice in the land of wonder.Greater still the idea of forming stronger ties and more open dialouge between the two parties is like selling the Golden Gate Bridge to a counrty bumkin, for those of us who are not of the inner belt way crowd can see clearly that their is an angenda at work here and a prevailing idea. It is the same that was at work thirty odd years ago when we pulled out and left a weak foundling nation to face the wrath of an agressor back by two other foriegn powers who stayed to course so to say. Time and history do one thing so very well they repaet themselves over and over, only the names have changed.

Go and make disciples of all men…

‘Warren’s invitation signaled openness on the part of a new generation of evangelical leaders to create new alliances. World poverty, clean water, the Darfur crisis and the AIDS epidemic may be new fronts for social action that can help transform our world. Christians are called to win the world. Let’s influence both their hearts and minds!’ -Harry R. Jackson Jr.

Find sounding words of worldly wisdom that fly in the face of the words of Jesus Christ, ‘Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand…seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness…’

Would you show us in the New Testament where we are ‘called to win the world’? Rather, we are called to go and make disciples of all the nations…teaching them to observe all things that Christ commanded. [Matthew 28:18] The great need of men is to be clothed in the righteousness of God, not man made coverings to accommodate their sin.

Jackson's right about Congress ...
... and we should all be writing to let the leadership (McConnell, Reid, Boehner, and Pelosi) know that conservative "independents" will be carefully watching the Congress, not listening, over the next two years.

We have learned that talk is cheap and actions are all that count in Congress of the United States, where a person's word means nothing and even actions are not always what they seem to be.

But, those actions will determine out votes in '08.

My first thought
My first thought when I heard about the Obama, Warren, Brownback meeting was: You have got to be kidding me!! I am not a worshipper of Obama. His stance and voting record sucks based on my biblical view. Sure I beleive he is going to run for president and is attempting to shore up some support from Christians..My question is to all TH is how did Jesus treat the rulers of his time. Many came seeking an audience.(Nicodemus) Did he turn them away? NO, he used that opportunity to proclaim God's word, will and desire for how we are to live! It's not that they have an audience; it's about our motives

Homosexuals Are Intouch
Homosexuals are in touch with their sexuality, no balance their, just a steady diet of the male sexual organ, thus in touch, really in touch with themselves. When do you beleive they will become desperate for change and balance??? Will the drugs they take to enlighten their sexuality cause a need for change??? Or will they share their love with all of mankind???? Is this the new religion that will be forced on all???? Healthy and life bearing???? Do we as the natural family of mankind, except their teachings of sexuality, and human growth??? What will mankind envole into???? What will womanhood envole in too. What direction is mankind headed for??? A world without God, is no world at all. God made man and woman, for balance and respect and sharing and to care for the creation of life. Sex is a gift to a Marreid Man and Woman, a husband and wife, a mother and father. As God love us, we in return love one another and learn to live life in balance and truth. The truth will set us free. The truth will always be. Mankind is mulipulating God's truth and is becoming beast. Pray and acknowledge our Heavenaly Father, Our Creator, and Jesus Christ Our Savior. Praise Jesus. Amen!!!!!

With The Dems In Power
Sounds like it's definitely time for all devout Christians to PRAY.

THIS PAST ELECTION
Is proof enough that times are a changing, but it is way to early for anyone to have any idea as to which direction. On election night the Dems all put on their party dresses, did their victory dance, and they all developed a severe case of flap jaw, spewing out how huge this victory was for the them, and that the election results revealed a major rejection of the Republican party by the American voters. As we all know, it doesn't take much to impress simple minds, and as the election numbers point out, the victories that the Democrats did pull off, none of them were won by a major landslide by any means. The fact that Democrats were only able to squeak their way in to gaining control of both houses by such a slim margin, even after the Republicans openly spent the past six years flaunting their corruption and out of control spending in the faces of Americans, basically said that Americans still remember the do nothing Clinton years, but wanted to send a message to the Republicans that enough is enough. And over the next two years Republican voters are going take a watch and see attitude and see what changes in the Republican party and be able to do so knowing that there is still a so called Republican President sitting in the White House.

The Democrats really have very little to be happy about, especially considering the internal conflicts that started only days after the election.

Times are changing, and possibly the days of the two party system are coming to the end of the line, as it appears that the system has run its course, and for the good of the country change has to come

hntr admin
http://www.headsneedtoroll.org







GreatFul to Be A Bible Thumper
I'm Greatful to be a Bible Thumper, I am greatful to be a woman, wife, mother, grandmother. I am greatful to have lived my sexuality in a natural and loving, honest and honarable fahison. Endowed by my Creator, to bring forth life and love the man that made love for myself and my children, a true family of God. Praise be to his Holy name, Jesus Christ, for he died for my sins and made me whole. Homosexuals, the truth will set you free!! Free from sexual deviancy and diease. Man don't be a man thumper, woman don't be a woman thumper. Try thumping the Bible, learn the truth and He will set you free. Amen!!! Praise Jesus!!!!

Warren-Obama
Another problem with the Warren invitation to Obama is that the Picture in our paper showed only Warren and Obama and not the Republican Warren also invited!! The media takes things like these and spins them to their own devices. Obama got more publicity and the media made it look as if Warren was promoting him for President!!

O.L. Fort Wayne

Hold Fast
I think it is foolish for any of us to pin all of our hopes on any one party. If we will hold fast to our moral convictions without compromise, we can support any political leader who chooses to do the same. We must be smart enough to know when we are being used, and not be taken in by cheap talk. Study the actual voting records of your representatives, rather than buying whatever they say to get re-elected.
I don't have a problem with Rick Warren trying to brig people together for the common good, but we must recognize the difference between a "photo op" and a real commitment to just causes.

itcanbedone
The difference here is that Jesus taught the politicians that came to him, and it seems that Pastor Warren did none of that. This was a conference that was looking at stemming the spread od AIDS, which is fine and good. But to give your pulpit over to someone that constantly preaches the liberal line of condom use and not abstinence is not exactlt a Biblical principle.

Further, it seems to me that the more these mega-church pastors involve themelves in politics, the less actual preaching of the true gospel is going to go on. The gospel is not something that fits into the present political scene, which is probably why Christ never called us to be politicians. Playing politics from the pulpit is a dangerous game that the chuch should not be playing.

Oz
I have two words for Obama;
VINCE FOSTER

Getting in a Clinton's way can get you to a grassy knowl without grass stains on your shoes.

Thank God for the Difference
Now the democrats are trying to hijack “Christianity” and are learning “religious-speak.” But if your spiritual faith in Jesus Christ is well grounded, they will not fool you. Even a convert who becomes saved needs time to learn how to articulate as a Christian…it doesn’t happen overnight as it seems to have with the liberal left, the recent election being the catalyst. Being a true Christian means having given your heart and life to the Lord…it is not a flurry of catch phrases and “religiously correct” idioms. I wonder what God thinks of all this pretense…well, He put them in office. Do you think that maybe there must be a plethora of evil for us to be able to recognize the truth, and that the world must become much worse before the “last days,” and that is why liberals won the majority of votes in the election? Maybe corrupt and Godless government will usher in the end times of Revelation.

Bible believing Christians cannot embrace the political positions of the left…abortion on demand (called “pro-choice” especially the killing of about-to-be-born children), removing God from the public and private sector of this country, (separation of church and state which, by the way, is not in the First Amendment,) vain attempts to negotiate with terrorists espousing the false hope that it will bring peace (let us dialog with them in the hope of a compromise,) enslaving Americans with additional give-away programs, (social engineering,) amnesty for and acceptance of all illegal aliens who have broken the law to enter this country (compassion, and the need for a working underclass) legislating acceptance of gays and lesbians (civil rights,) imposing medical programs on all Americans at the expense of those who will be forced to pay for it with tax dollars,(everyone has the right to free medical care, or socialism,) appointing liberal Godless judges to the bench at all levels, (encouraging diversity,) and the unacceptable hate rhetoric leveled at all conservatives as a political strategy.

I just do not believe the church (and Rick Warren in particular) should give a platform and legitimacy to those who embrace political opinions that are in direct contravention of Christian principles. Are we going to blend in with them until in the future there may be such a blurred line between evangelical Christians and liberals who eschew Biblical exhortations that we will not recognize the difference? “Be not unequally yoked together” is the way I would choose to go, but then my platform is very small and my voice is very weak; nevertheless I will continue to express my views whenever I am able.


Christians Best Beware
Many economic conservatives in the Republican Party have not promoted the Christian agenda because they believe in it.

Rather - those economic conservatives ("fatcat hypocrites" as one poster above called them) - promoted the Christian agenda because it served as a useful electoral wedge.

If the Christians like Warren reach across party lines too much, then the Republicans will drop their agenda as fast as a cheating husband will take off his ring when entering a singles club. Reverand Dobson and other Christian leaders have realized this for years as they built up their alliances with the Republicans.

dont be fooled
osama obama could care less about aids/hiv and those that have mostly inflicted that disease on themselves, they are merely using the forum for their own political gain.

Mr. Jackson: You're Wrong
Barak Obama has no place talking to a congregation about anything, except perhaps to describe the horrid details of partial birth abortion, since he loves it so much. This might inspire some believers to be more outspoken on the topic.

And by the way, Christians do not believe one of God's moral issues to "limit the massive number of abortions." Our goal is to eradicate this beastly practice entirely, since it is the murder of an unborn child.

We cannot cooperate with Mr. Obama's AIDS agenda because it involves condoms. This does not properly address the reasons for the spread of AIDS in Africa, which are rampant promiscuity and dirty needles. As the bumper sticker says, "Condoms don't protect your heart." Why condone illicit sexual behavior with rubbers?

Get Christian missionaries into Africa now. The only way to address the problem is through the Gospel, which can include clean healthcare opportunities. We don't need to get in bed with the devil to address this problem.

I remember
When Colin Powell thought about running for president and got all of those death threats and hate mail.
Why is one African American the great "Hope of the Blacks" and another a satan or Oreo?
The same for Condi, who they all should be proud of, yet they worship at the feet of the likes of Jackson or Sharpton
It is the way we, as conservative act compared to the Libs.

Rick Warren
is on thin ice. A previous poster noted that Rick Warren didn't have Obama at the conference to reach him spiritually. He may have had that in mind, I don't know. But the overall result of the affair is much less than positive.


Warren has a name now. Not just in Evangelical circles, but politically, and on the world stage. Barak Hussein Obama advocates things that are truey evil. I think he used his appearance at Saddle Back for his own political purposes. That photo of him and Rick Warren had tremendous political implications.


I think we should all pray for Rick Warren. He is in great danger. However good his intentions, politicians like Obama will feed on his reputation to try to conceal who and what they are. Hopefully te furor created by putting Obama on stage at his churh will give warren a heads up about how people will try to use him.

As far as Harry Jackson is concerned, the jury is still out. At least as far as Iam concerned.

Wild Olive
"Barak Obama has no place talking to a congregation about anything, except perhaps to describe the horrid details of partial birth abortion, since he loves it so much. This might inspire some believers to be more outspoken on the topic."

I could not agree more. I am surprised at Mr. Jackson having been so easily taken in. Talk the talk and make all the right sounds; maintain a perfect score on the pro-abortion voting record, AND "outreach" to evangelicals as well?????????????????????

Hypocrisy, of the highest order. Worse than disgusting, but I cant express in words on this site how this article by Mr. Jackson churns my stomach.

Mr Jackson
Now that my initial reaction to your article is out of the way, allow me to examine it more critically.

Mr. Jackson: You refer to the "the so called “controversy”". Sorry. it IS a controversy.

Mr Jackson: "Warren’s attempt to solve one of the world’s most troubling health problems should have been applauded by everyone."

And what attempt WAS that, pray tell? What great sacrifice does he intend to make to solve this particular issue? As a matter of interest, EVERYone is in favor of solving this problem. Safe political ground indeed. But is safe political ground where ANY Christian minister should feel comfortable?

Mr Jackson: "Yet, as I have spoken with some civil rights leaders, I have been labeled as an “Uncle Tom” because I have interacted with the Bush White House."

What on earth would you expect? Larry Elder faces the same difficulty, as does any black conservative. Get over it. It goes with the territory.

Mr Jackson: "On the other hand, some conservatives have wondered about me because I have spoken on the same panel with Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Louis Farrakhan, and others."

Again, no surprise there. So which side ARE you on? If you took their color out of it, you probably would see them for what they are "professionally aggrieved protesters" and wouldnt be within shouting distance of one of them. Your colleague Dr. Sowell has their measure. You should listen to him.

Mr Jackson: "Warren’s gesture of inviting politicians from both parties to speak at his summit makes sense to me."

It makse NO sense to me. He is lending the cloak of Christian "respectability" to rabid pro-abortionists.


Mr Jackson: "This may be the beginning of a new dialogue between evangelicals and the Democratic Party."

Good heavens. I hope not! Can you see these Democrats ACTUALLY voting against the interests of NARAL to please evangelicals??????


Mr Jackson cont'd
Mr Jackson: "Warren has a moral agenda that should embraced by every human on the planet"

And I thought all along that it was JESUS CHRIST who had the moral agenda which should be embraced by EVERY human on the planet!!!!!!!!!
Thank you, Mr. Jackson. Silly old me!!

Mr Jackson cont'd
Mr Jackson: “What should Bible believing Christians do about the last election?”

Easy. Nothing. Its over.

Mr Jackson: “How should we feel about the way we were stereotyped by both the press and the major parties?”

We should feel that it goes with the territory. "The world WILL hate you because of Me." (The words of Jesus Christ Himself..... I can think of no better source for working out my "feelings"...

Mr Jackson: "Further, they are tired of double dealing, hypocritical politicians of all parties, genders, and races."

... A perfect description for... Barack Obama, whose voting record contradicts his words.


Trend setters or sell outs.
Way to go, Harry Jackson.
Jesus was inclusive, and I agree with your point:
"if Bible teachers can be converted to lukewarm Christianity in 1 hour, we are in worse trouble than we thought".
Good food for thought.

Mr Jackson cont'd
Mr Jackson: "Millions of Christians have defined God’s moral issues as only protection of marriage, religious liberty, prevention of judicial activism, and limiting the massive numbers of abortions."

No they have NOT. But let's for sake of argument go along with your train of thought...

Mr Jackson: "While these things are still important, the culture needs for us to give them practical guide lines for living."

I'm glad you think they are "still important"...

Mr Jackson: "Churches and Christian leaders are needed to discuss the morality of war, how to deal with poverty, world hunger"

Ok.
Morality of war? War is a necessary evil, undertaken in defense of the state as a last resort.
Poverty? Eliminate it. (Personally I favor a free-market approach..)
World Hunger? Ditto.

End of discussion on these politically EASY topics. Now, let the REAL Christians stand up and take the hits for trying to eliminate the even GREATER evil of abortion. Not "limit" - as one previous poster expressed, but eliiminate. Why is this a greater evil? Because it is killing done with deliberate intention and under legal protection.

Next time you meet Mr Obama, Sir, you might just ask him WHY on EARTH he is so supportive of a legal mechanism which is decimating black communities throughout the land????

Mr Jackson cont'd
Mr Jackson: "Many moderate Democrats were elected this year. These candidates often espoused very socially conservative or religious views."

Of course they "espoused".... but how did they VOTE? Get REAL!!

Mr Jackson: "Although Obama’s current stance on abortion, gay rights, and other issues are very flawed; he can be influenced by patient debate and discussion."

Wow... Merely "very flawed"???? LOL!!

Mr Jackson: "Warren was right to ask Obama to speak at the conference. Over the years, I have used this tactic to begin a dialogue with several historic adversaries. Very few people are so hardened that can enjoy your hospitality and then go out and bad mouth you."

Very good. So they LIKE you more. So what? It doesnt matter. What you are doing in "inviting" them is giving scandal, because while OBVIOUSLY they wont influence the audience to become "luke-warm Christians" (with respect, a silly point on your part) the scandal is in providing a PLATFORM for them and SEEMING to SUPPORT them.

It reminds me of the late John Cardinal O'Connor of New York. He would not appear on the same platform as the Clintons, PRECISELY because of their stance on abortion. In so choosing, he was making a STATEMENT. That being Catholic-Christian is INCOMPATIBLE with voting for those who support abortion rights. Yes, abortion IS that evil. No compromise is possible. You, sir, are chosing to make a very different statement indeed. A most disappointing one. In the interests of political opportunity, being liked, and getting along.

Very well-reasoned argument!
I enjoyed this article. This is exactly what I have been thinking since election day. I agree that Rick Warren was unjustly criticized without all of the facts. He did the right thing. He did not give up his pulpit. He had Senator Obama come speak on an area of passion & expertise - the AIDS crisis. If he had him come preach during their worship services, then I would have been concerned, but that wasn't the case.

ATTENTION TOWNHALL
Have any of you been reminded that Jesus wasn't a Republican?

Feed the hungry, clothe the naked?

Selective literal interpretation of a document that has been translated dozens of times in the past two millennia is not a productive means of promoting future politicized religious bigotry. Rick Warren and Barack Obama are both men trying to better the world as best they know how. It's sad and frustrating to read the rantings against men meeting to achieve a concrete objective such as AIDS eradication. I'm sure very few, if any of you who read this, will appreciate what I'm saying, but it is time that you might remember that none of you have a privileged view of the divine word of God. Men like John Locke understood this as they tried to configure a way that a polity could survive in modern times. There is a need to move towards maximum inclusion to address our greatest challenges, not religious zealotry and unbridled bigotry.

If none of this is getting through to you that is unfortunate and I feel badly that it is not. Conversely you must understand that I am in my early twenties and similar sentiment permeates my generation. Also understand that working harmoniously is our only means of making progress, and a generational shift in power is coming soon.

I wish you all the best of luck in your lives and must admit that you interpretations may be right and mine may be wrong, but I question whether Jesus would support the policies that you purport he would. This invocation is dangerous, not because it is right or wrong, but because you have left no room for debate or doubt. Messianic certainty is uncalled for unless one professes to be the messenger himself. What Warren did by inviting Obama was push for civility and inclusion in the public discourse in order to solve those dilemmas that Jesus, most likely, would have sought solutions to.

It is also important to note that, while the Op-Ed Page of The New York Times is more liberal than mainstream, this sites authors and viewers tend to hew from the opposite school. Compromise is the only thing that will get us anywhere. We need to continue a vigorous public debate about all issues , but none of us need assert our beliefs or interpretations as supreme edict less we give in to the idolatry that the bible explicitly condemns.

Dangers of association with the left
I agree that the primary goal of Christianity must be to win souls to Christ. However, the Bible tells us not to mingle with the ways of the world. I believe that Rick opened himself up to that by inviting Obama. The left is a deceiver, counterfieter, and will put on any mask to lull you in, and then their real agenda comes to the surface. If the conservative right continues to move closer to the center, Christians will feel abandoned, and conservatism will die.

The door mat mentality
Does anybody remember Religious conservative leader Jerry Falwell. Didn't he get jammed up in a compromise with playboy magazine?
When you allow the world to use you as their door mat...you will feel it. Some say and think you have to push the envelope, compromise a little to get recognition. When you play in dirty sand box...you're likely to carry some of it home.

When I saw
this story about Warren and Obama all I could think was opportunism on both sides, Warren and Obama.

It looked like a side show to me. Promotional circus act.

In the world, not of it
Jesus' work in this world was to live and move amoung us and to spread His good news. He tended to associate with those that who were despised by "proper" society. Whores, cheats, thieves, adulterers. As He lived with "us", He surely rubbed shoulders with some who others considedered detestable. His mission was to spread His gospel to every man and woman and he never compromised His mission. He didn't let a person's position in life (e.g. Nichodemus, Roman soldiers) affect how he treated them or whether He gave His good news to them.
The only people He had trouble with were the religious folks. They crucified Him in the end.
And now we, as modern day ambassadors for Christ, are called to die to ourselves and continue His mission in the world. To be the salt and the light that this world so desperately needs. We are NOT called to determine who is deserving of the good news and who is not. The apostle Paul understood this when he said that he attempted to be all things to all men so that he might by all means save some.
I do not agree with Mr. Obama's position on many issues. But I do not believe that we, as christians, are called to judge whether he is a christain or not. We are only called to mix with the world we all live in and to share this good news about the salvation provided because of Jesus Christ. It is not up to us to pick one over another when it comes to who we share that gospel with. I am very sure that while Jesus was mixing with the world He created he often found the stench of sin unbearable, but found His love for the sinners irresistable.
How can we look someone in the face and tell them of God's love for them, and in the same breath tell them how they stink? I think that Rick Warren is doing the right thing in mixing with the world around him, while refusing to compromise the gospel of love and God's call to repentance. I'm not surprised when short thinking religious folk resist that attempt. It's happened before to a man named Jesus. I'm sure Rick Warren understands that. I applaud and support him.

But Lord,
did we not do many mighty works in your name?


"Depart from me, you evildoers.

"I never knew you."



Warren/Obama
"Divide, and conquer." It seems that this phrase has been around for along time. To me a mega-church with fifteen thousand members is over-kill. Thirty (or more) churches could be established and cover a significantly greater amount of territory---and less finances, etc. I have read the posts written by; tom, Valiant for
Truth, itcanbedone, flagwaver, Lexx777, Skip, Jimmy Joe and Douglas Gibbs and their views are
close (and better said) to mine. Again, if we desire, by Gods' grace in our lives, to be effective in our daily walk, and our influence
to bring glory to the kingdom of God---we of necessity must choose carefully who we keep company with. "Birds of a feather" and "water seeks its own level" and other "sayings" give us the concept of what people will connect us to.
Our lives, as believers, are preaching the gospel
every day. Can I live with that?

Kathy
It's grateful, not greatful.

Jackson, Warren, Obama, show integrity
These men and there willingness to work with the other side of the aisle just might be honest people looking for honest answers.

Somehow people who are willing to work together to solve problems, are now consider sellouts.

Hell, all we ever get with the two main liberal parties in America is bickering and bigger, inefficient government which creates even more problems. But hey, an 8 trillion dollar debt and growing for our grandchildren is nothing.

Conservatives need to be socially tolerant, but fiscally conservative first instead of visa versa.
For ex. We have legal abortion now that is federally funded. Compromise with the liberals for abortion remaining legal, but have all government funding cut off.
This would go further to creating a culture of life than the stalemate we have now.

We got to be wise and crafty in our approaches to eliminating waste and funding that conservatives don't agree with socially and fiscally.


George

George: "ATTENTION TOWNHALL
Have any of you been reminded that Jesus wasn't a Republican?"

Silly point. Of COURSE Jesus wasNT a Republican!

George: "Feed the hungry, clothe the naked?"

What on earth has this quote got to do with ANYthing discussed here? I would presume all Christians would favor this....

George: "Selective literal interpretation of a document that has been translated dozens of times in the past two millennia is not a productive means of promoting future politicized religious bigotry."

This sentence makes no sense. I presume you are hardly trying to point out MORE "productive means of promoting future politicized religious bigotry"????

But be careful with the words you throw around so freely. I would hesitate to use the word "bigot" to describe someone whose views differ from mine. It is impolite, and more often used by those who are in fact rather "bigotted" themselves.

George: "Rick Warren and Barack Obama are both men trying to better the world as best they know how."

So what? This doesNT mean we have to agree with them, OR support them. I'm sure Hitler and Stalin felt they were also trying to better the world. I use this as analogy ONLY.

George: "It's sad and frustrating to read the rantings against men meeting to achieve a concrete objective such as AIDS eradication."

Whose "rantings?" I only saw people agreeing or disagreeing with the author. Presumably those who AGREE with the author are not the "ranting" ones in your eyes? Again, a word I would hesitate to use with those who happen to disagree with my views. Same reason as above.

As far as AIDS eradication is concerned, I know of NObody who would be against this. So big deal. Safe choice of "evils" to conquer. Requires no moral courage whatsoever.

George
George: "If none of this is getting through to you that is unfortunate and I feel badly that it is not."

I presume we are such dumb rednecks that we are a lost cause????

George: "Also understand that working harmoniously is our only means of making progress, and a generational shift in power is coming soon."

Working harmoniously with those who would kill the most innocent life in the womb? Not on your life! Well, the "generational shift in power" is far less than you may think; After all, millions of YOUR generation has been killed off by members of MY unfortunate and misguided generation. Does that not bother you in the least? It sure bothers me!

George: "I wish you all the best of luck in your lives and must admit that you interpretations may be right and mine may be wrong, but I question whether Jesus would support the policies that you purport he would."

How do you know what policies we would "purport he would" support? Having said that though, I just cant somehow picture Jesus tearing the child from its mother's womb, and dumping the little body..... so trust me when I tell you most sincerely I feel pretty safe on that one! Thanks for your good wishes though.

George: "This invocation is dangerous, not because it is right or wrong, but because you have left no room for debate or doubt."

Let me ask you a question, George. Do you have the least doubt that racism is a moral evil? Or slavery? Or rape? Or Nazism? Then YOU also leave "no room for debate or doubt."

George: "Messianic certainty is uncalled for unless one professes to be the messenger himself."

And you lack the certainty that any of the above are morally evil?

George: "What Warren did by inviting Obama was push for civility and inclusion in the public discourse in order to solve those dilemmas that Jesus, most likely, would have sought solutions to."

Well, I fear this is where we part company. Jesus "most likely" would NOT have the patience to deal with hypocrites. This in HIS eyes was the single greatest sin. Obama is a hypocrite for using the language of "Christian inclusiveness" while voting in such a way as to demonstrate nothing but complete contempt for Christianity and humanity.

George conclusion
George: "Compromise is the only thing that will get us anywhere. We need to continue a vigorous public debate about all issues , but none of us need assert our beliefs or interpretations as supreme edict less we give in to the idolatry that the bible explicitly condemns."

Tell you what we'll do, George. Let's debate EVERY moral issue. Let's compromise on slavery and racism. Lets not be absolutist on ANYthing. Let's debate the moral merits of the right to rape... etc etc etc. If you can see why these "compromises" are ridiculous, then you can also see why it is ridiculous to "compromise" on OTHER moral issues on which compromise is morally impossible.

Forgive me for giving you a hard time. I really dont wish to. I also wish YOU well.

Mark B
I have no issue with the beginning of your post, but then....

Mark B: "He didn't let a person's position in life (e.g. Nichodemus, Roman soldiers) affect how he treated them or whether He gave His good news to them.
The only people He had trouble with were the religious folks. They crucified Him in the end."

Well, Nichodemus was a "religious folk". So you contradict yourself. Jesus own MOTHER was a "religious folk". In FACT, the only people he had trouble with were the HYPOCRITES and the Jewish POLITICAL leaders. Those were the ones who "crucified" Him in the end.

Mark B
Mark B: "I do not agree with Mr. Obama's position on many issues. But I do not believe that we, as christians, are called to judge whether he is a christain or not."

By their fruits you will know them. How ANYone who supports the most extreme laws favoring abortion can call themselves Christain is beyond me. Where would YOU draw a line? Is it possible to support a law favoring infanticide, and still remain "Christian"? I dont think so. We are not to "judge" but we are also meant to be as "wise as serpents" - in other words - not be totally stupid!

JimmyJoe
Be careful...you may hurt George's feelings! Seriously though, I have to agree with your retort to George and to Bishop Jackson on this issue. I have an old post at my blog called "Is the Religious Right Wrong" that covers some of my fears about the church becoming too entangled in the world of politics. I think it is a dangerous game to link up the church with any political Party, group, or movement as it can divert us from the true work of the church. Hop over to the blog and check it out if you have time and let me know what you think. Despite our initial rocky meeting, I think that you are an all right guy...usually polite and always with well thought out replies.

Mark B conclusion
Mark B: "How can we look someone in the face and tell them of God's love for them, and in the same breath tell them how they stink?"

I dont think ANYone does this. We are not arguing about whether B.O. "stinks" or not. We are arguing about his POSITIONS on basic human rights issues, which are totally at VARIANCE with a Christian position. We are talking about hypocrisy. The very thing that infuriated Jesus Himself!! Having said that, it IS necessary to point out to the other that his WAYS are sinful. It is a LACK of Christian charity NOT to do so. Because he may be sowing the seeds of his own perdition.

Mark B: "I think that Rick Warren is doing the right thing in mixing with the world around him, while refusing to compromise the gospel of love and God's call to repentance."

If ALL he was doing was "mixing with the world around him" NObody here would have an issue with that.

Mark B: "I'm not surprised when short thinking religious folk resist that attempt."

Oh. I presume that means us dumb rednecks??? I think George above probably shares the same views. Could it be possible to have a view which differs from yours that isNT "short thinking"??

Mark B: "It's happened before to a man named Jesus."

Not sure what this means... but I do happen to recall the slaughter of the innocents - a period in which Joseph was forewarned in a dream, and was forced to flee to Egypt. So all the other male children were slaughtered. Sort of reminds me of the abortion thingY.... I wonder where Joesph would "flee" today? Mexico????

Flagwaver
Thanks a lot. I figured getting past the initial misunderstanding was only a matter of course... bound to happen! I had read too many of your other contributions to think otherwise. I also agree with you regarding getting tangled up in political parties - either way. As you stated above in an earlier post.

Having said that, I am Republican by default - certainly not out of conviction! Its almost like living in a "one-party" state. The second party makes ITSELF impossible to support because of its extreme position on the abortion thingy.

George
When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and beheld a man standing with a drawn sword and Joshua approached him and asked him, "Are you for us of for our adversaries?"

And the man answered, "No..."

May I recommend you pick up a Gospel of John and check out Jesus for yourself instead of allowing your culture to define Him for you.


Irrelevant
All this talk about conservatives, republicans, democrats, etc., is soon not going to matter. Once our liberal, politically correct president has signed the amnesty bill, this will become a one party country - the democrat party. The president has to know this, so why is he doing it?

No compromise on abortion
davy's crock writes:

"...these men and there [sic] willingness to work with the other side of the aisle just might be honest people looking for honest answers."

I disagree. There's nothing magnanimous about working with the other side of the aisle, if it means compromising our position on abortion. Your suggestion to keep abortion legal while cutting its federal funding misses the point. Christians get involved in the pro-life cause in order to stop the murder of the innocents, and also to instill justice in the land. As long as the butchering of babies is condoned by the law, we all have blood on our hands.

"Righteousness exalts a nation,
but sin is a disgrace to any people."

JimmyJoe
JimmyJoe writes:

"Morality of war? War is a necessary evil, undertaken in defense of the state as a last resort.
Poverty? Eliminate it. (Personally I favor a free-market approach..)
World Hunger? Ditto."

Amen.

Saddleback
Does that name sound kinky to anyone besides me?

CC
"The president has to know this, so why is he doing it?"

Maybe the Kossacks are right, and Bush is trying to bring on the apocalypse?

Bipsy Quee
Thank you for that reminder. I love that story. It made me worship God trembling.

Joshua: "Are you for us or our adversaries?"

Angel: "No;"


JIMMYJOE
I'll address your comments on my post one by one:
First, when I use the term'religeous folk', I am refering to those in Jesus time who attempted to justify themselves based on self righteousness and supposed adherence to the Law of Moses. Yes, Nicodemus was a religious man, however, he was not a hypocrite but a truth seeker. Yes Jesus mother was religious, but she was not a hypocrit. She believed God and it was counted to her as righteousness. Today there are many who think of themselves as Christians, yet do not really know God or obey Him. They are the spiritual descendants of those who crucified our Lord.
Second; yes, we know those who truly follow Christ by their fruits. But we are all at different stages in our progress as believers. For instance, is someone who still smokes cigarettes after their conversion, a Christian? I know we can't equate smoking and abortion (which is horrendous), but I think we can say that perhaps Mr. Obama's understanding of what abortion is could be lacking. I don't really know the answer to that question. But all I can do is try to let the love of God be apparent in my own life so that my witness is not compromised. If I show hatred toward Mr. Obama, I have ruined my credibility and my witness. I'm not a stupid fool when it comes to politics and politicians. I realize that Mr. Obama has an agenda that is at odds with most of what we believe politically and socially. And our goal should not to be a witness to Mr. Obama ONLY, but also to those who closely observe how we Christians treat him and others like him.
Finally, you know as well as I do, Joe, that words are not the only language we "speak" with. We speak MORE by how we treat people. Our words are meaningless if they are not backed up by our actions and attitudes.
I try very hard not to pigeon hole people with titles such as "red neck". I think people are people regardless of the color of their necks. What matters is the heart of a person.
I have been around "religious" people since I got saved in 1983, and they never did me one bit of good. The ones who really helped me were the ones who spoke few words, but spoke volumes by their actions. As you said, by their fruit you shall know them. I think the fewer words we can use, the better, and the more we can show who we really are by our actions and attitudes. I think that Rick Warren shows by his actions and attitudes that he really knows and believes God. I think his actions speak to the world that there is a creator who yearns desparately to know them and have relationship with them. Even sinners like Barak Obama.

George
Why are two-dozen translations from the original Greek and Hebrew a problem for you?

Also George
Of the people I've met that raised the translation issue, they never read even one of them! I suspect that this is true of you as well.

I've read many translations. They are almost all of them acceptable alternatives of each other and seldom vary on any point.

The only dangerous translations are the ones that were done for a certain agenda rather than in the name of literary scholarship and translational science.

Mark B
Mark B: "First, when I use the term'religeous folk', I am refering to those in Jesus time who attempted to justify themselves based on self righteousness and supposed adherence to the Law of Moses."

Ok. Thanks for clarification. But I would have used this definition to refer to self-righteous hypocrites rather than "religious folk." And the two do not always equate..

Mark B: "For instance, is someone who still smokes cigarettes after their conversion, a Christian?"

I would certainly think so! Mark, I distinguish between "sins of the flesh" to which our weakness leads us. I have FAR less difficulty with these, than I have with a cold thought-out position which is at variance with the Christian faith, as represented by an extreme view on abortion rights.

Mark B: "I know we can't equate smoking and abortion (which is horrendous),"

Agreed!

Mark B: "but I think we can say that perhaps Mr. Obama's understanding of what abortion is could be lacking."

Yes. And we need NOT encourage him in his false understanding by lending him the cloak of Christian "respectability," and the APPEARANCE of political support. We could always take him aside in private and explain it to him.

Mark B: "But all I can do is try to let the love of God be apparent in my own life so that my witness is not compromised. If I show hatred toward Mr. Obama, I have ruined my credibility and my witness."

Good not to compromise your witness. NObody has EVER suggested showing "hatred towards Mr Obama." I dont know where this is coming from. My position is one of complete opposition, NOT "hatred." And it is a complete opposition borne out of my love for the innocent lives he would destroy by his extreme views on abortion. On that I will not compromise, at ALL. Should I do so, I would not only be less than Christian, but less than human.

Mark B: "I realize that Mr. Obama has an agenda that is at odds with most of what we believe politically and socially."

Good. Then you have no choice but to oppose him too. With love. But with uncompromised opposition.

Mark B: "And our goal should not to be a witness to Mr. Obama ONLY, but also to those who closely observe how we Christians treat him and others like him."

And how we witness FOR the unborn, who have NO voice, and how we treat THEM, and others like THEM, will ALSO be "witnessed" by Mr Obama and "others like him."

I will note a word of caution here, though, Mark. The "witnessing" thing can be taken so far as to set ourselves UP as an example for others - IF we concern ourselves with how we are "observed." I think this is a VERY dangerous position, because it lends itself to the worst sin of all - pride. I am NOT suggesting this is where you are at - but pointing out a danger.



Jerubaal
"Of the people I've met that raised the translation issue, they never read even one of them!"

LOL!!

JimmyJoe
Laughing at what? Jerubaal is as or more insightful than everybody who posts here.

Craig C (!!!??)
Cool it. It should be OBVIOUS from my posts that I AGREE with what he has written. (exasperated sigh!) Did you not see a touch of irony here... you know... complaining about "all" the translations, not having read "even one"...???????? No?? Ok. Well, do you not see a touch of irony here NOW?? No?? Ok.

Rick's Not So Bad
Glad to see someone in the conservative front is sticking up for good ol' Rick Warren. He has shown over the last few years that he really has a had on his shoulders. Christian Conservatives should not have jumped ship so easily when he invited Obama to speak. Didn't they think that Rick carefully considered what he was doing? It wasn't just a whim that failed. I believe as Jackson does. We need to engage those who are Chrsitians but have not seen the light on issues that have biblical mandates from scripture. Well done, Harry!

Step by Step will get there, be patient.
Wild olive writes...
"There's nothing magnanimous about working with the other side of the aisle, if it means compromising our position on abortion. Your suggestion to keep abortion legal while cutting its federal funding misses the point."

To the contrary, wild olive, it goes right to the heart of the matter. If Government supports abortions, you will never end it. It will always lean towards the acceptable side.

However, defunding abortion will go even further to creating " a culture of life ", than making it a issue every election, that really serves no purpose whatsoever and brings about no change.

By defunding abortions the conservatives win twice, less abortions and less spending, which I would believe all conservatives could support as well as conservative democrats. Also we don't look like uncompassinate Christians leaving women to get backroom coathanger abortions.
The Demos will sure to be pointing that out and driving it home against us.

Wild Olive, whether you agree or not, this is a better alternative than to current legal and gov supported abortion policies, that don't in anyway create a " culture of life".

If abortion could be made illegal Bush would have done it.

davy's crock
If the ONLY option or step on the road ahead is the elimination of Federal funding for abortion, then no doubt Wild Olive is on the same side as you. Any reduction means more lives saved.

However, your problem is that you say "conservative democrats" would support this. Name ONE. Not Barack Obama. Not Joe Liebreman. They SAY one thing. But do another when it comes to voting. And I dont know of a SINGLE Democrat who will vote against the interests of NARAL. Scarey but true.

As for the backroom coathanger nonsense. I dont know if you are in fact aware of the reality. The reality is that even if Roe vs Wade was overturned, which is what "conservatives" would want - the individual States will decide on their OWN positions on abortion. Overturning Roe does NOT ILLegalise abortion.

The only power the President - any president - has in this area is indirect. Through his appointees to the Supreme Court. And you will note that Bush's two conservative appointees reached home in the teeth of Democratic opposition in the senate. Hardly a recipe for "cooperation."

Final point. We live in a most amazingly topsy turvy world, in which it "looks uncompassionate" to protect the most innocent life of all from deliberate destruction at the hands of its parents.

The coathanger method is gruesome. So is the saline injection method. So is the suction method. And so is the curette method, in which the body is dismembered and extracted in pieces. Let's not hide the ugliness of that which we oppose through a false compassion and the use of desanitised language which dehumanizes the human who is the real victim.

Trend Setters
It's time for the evangelicals to create new alliances and transform our world.

JimmyJoe, davy's crock
davy's crock:

JimmyJoe pretty much responded to you exactly the way I would have.

Let me add simply this:

Re: coathanger abortions. Those happened in way fewer numbers than people claim, pre-Roe v. Wade. Nevertheless, what about this idea? All pro-lifers, including you, JimmyJoe and myself, will promise to never give anyone an abortion. When Roe v. Wade gets overturned, who will perform the abortions? The pro-choice people; the same ones who do them now. And we will prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law. We will be able to treat those butchers like the murderers they are. So the next time anyone mentions the scary "coathanger" scenario, just promise them you won't ever use a coathanger on a woman, and anyone who does will pay full price.

Btw our dear president did make huge steps toward criminalizing abortion, by appointing two conservative judges, as JimmyJoe pointed out. Let's be patient; it may take time. But I remain hopeful that one day we will have just laws in this nation regarding abortion.

The party is not a one issue party.
Conservatives can make the party all about a social issue(s) and continue to lose to Demos, or we can be smart and get to our goals and remain fiscally conservative as we should first and foremost.

I hope Conswervatives will learn to put fiscal issue first and gain the social agendas we want such as abortion being illegal at the same time.

The otherway weve tried and have lost. We can't keep doing the same thing over and expect a different result.

MacZed
I'm not entirely sure what your point is, but murdering a child is a criminal act. I am just saying it ought to be illegal.

davy's crock
I agree with you one hundred per cent on fiscal conservatism. We need to cut the pork, big time.

As far as social issues go, though, abortion stands out as the most important of all. Why? Nothing else results in the murder of four thousand innocents per day. Not the gay agenda, not drugs, crime, welfare, anything. Abortion is the most horrific atrocity in America right now.


Trend Setters or Sell out
We really don't hnow what agenda Barak Obama had or Pastor Rick Warren. Sometimes I think that many times publicity surrounding such conferences brings out good dialog. But only God knows the true intentions of these individuals. Bishop Harry Jackson I thank for giving us interesting viewpoint.
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