Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Friday, April 06, 2007
Gregory Koukl :: Townhall.com Columnist
Partial-Birth Abortion Is Not about Abortion
by Gregory Koukl
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


When we justify the killing of a fully human child because of severe, congenital defect, we are not making a case for abortion; we're promoting something much more chilling.

Partial-term Abortion Is Not about Abortion.

If there is no good reason to allow partial-birth abortion, then why the intense resistance? Why the repeated challenges to a Federal ban on these procedures? Why do so many--mothers, doctors, Senators, members of Congress--accept such bad reasons for this barbaric practice? Rudy Giuliani's recent comments suggest that he's changed his previous position that he "would vote to preserve the option for women." The Supreme Court will hand down its decision within weeks on a federal law banning partial-birth abortion. Have they finally recognized that nothing justifies killing a baby partially born that can simply be delivered completely?

As I turned this question over in my mind, I realized why people don't see the obvious. They misunderstand this procedure—partial-birth abortion, D&X abortion--because of one very misleading term: abortion.

Abortion is sacred to many in this country. "Abortion is a woman's Constitutional right, therefore all abortions must be defended," we hear. "Make one type of abortion illegal and the dominoes begin to fall," others warn.

There's a problem, though. Simply calling a procedure an abortion doesn't make it one. A thing is what it is, regardless of the name used for it. Language may change perception, but it doesn't change the thing itself.

An abortion is what happens to a child within the womb of its mother. This is clear from every court case dealing with the issue. In partial-birth abortion, however, the delivery is 85% complete. The child is not on the inside of its mother when it's killed; it's on the outside.

If partial-birth abortion is not really an abortion, then what is it? Let me ask a question. What is it called when a newborn child is killed outside the womb? It's not called an abortion; it's called infanticide. The chilling truth is this: Partial-birth abortion is not really abortion; it's infanticide. It's the killing of an innocent human child outside his mother's body, often solely because of the baby's handicap.

Slipping Down the Slope

People often dismiss slippery slope arguments as overstatements. Ethics, however, makes a distinction between two kinds of slippery slopes. The "causal slippery slope" is like a line of dominoes falling. An action that might be morally benign in itself, leads to something else that's immoral, casting a shadow on the first. For example, if pornography causes violence against women, then pornography may be morally suspect. This is the kind that is often overstated.

The second is called a "logical slippery slope." When one thing is immoral, and a second is logically similar in a morally relevant way, the moral quality of the one slips over into the other. Murder is immoral, and some think capital punishment is similar enough to murder to make capital punishment immoral too. A logical slippery slope can slip in either direction. If you have a morally acceptable thing, and something else is logically similar to it, then arguably the second thing becomes morally acceptable, too.

The validity of a logical slippery slope depends on the similarity of the two things being compared. This is why I think the word "abortion" is misleading in "partial-birth abortion." The differences between this procedure and infanticide are only a few inches of physical location and a few seconds from officially recognized birth. What is the moral distinction between a born baby and a baby with only its head left in the birth canal because the birth has been stopped?

The Real Reason

The partial-birth abortion question places America at a critical juncture in the sanctity of life debate. Which way will we slide?

When you start with the view that abortion is a sacred right, then by reason of a logical slippery slope, you must argue for anything called abortion. "All abortions ought to be legal. D&X is an abortion. Therefore, D&X ought to be legal, too." Slide a bit further and it looks like this: "If partial-birth abortion is moral, and partial-birth abortion is essentially the same as infanticide, then infanticide must be moral, too."

We could, however, regain our moral sanity and slide the other way. If this atrocity is made illegal, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the very same thing is happening out of sight inside the womb in every late-term abortion. If the first is morally grotesque and illegal, then the second is grotesque and should be illegal, too.

Pro-abortionists know this, and that's why they're fighting so hard against the federal ban. They want freedom of choice at any cost, regardless of the moral consequences. When they raise the alarm, "This is the first step towards making all abortions illegal!" we finally have their real objection to the federal ban.

It's a legitimate fear. Once one realizes D&X abortions are clearly immoral, it's going to be hard to justify any late-term abortion. On the other hand, if it's clear that a living human child is being butchered, yet D&X remains legal simply because abortion is legal, then even the hardiest libertarians should realize there's something terribly wrong with the current state of abortion law.

No Clear Moral Intuitions

The question we now face is, "Which way will we slip?"

Will the Supreme Court, will Rudy Giuliani admit that there are no good reasons for partial-birth abortion? Will we admit D&X is really infanticide by another name? Will we then recognize that any late-term abortion under cover of the mother's womb is enough like D&X to be immoral, too? If partial-birth abortion is de facto infanticide, what meaningful moral distinction is there between infanticide and any other late-term abortion? They all destroy a little human being.

Or will we slide the other way? Will the public, will the courts admit that pro-lifers are right that partial-birth abortions are virtual infanticide, but then conclude that since abortion is moral--and here we slip the other way--then infanticide must be moral, too? Some have already proposed this.

We can go either way. That's why we're at such a critical juncture.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author

Gregory Koukl is founder and president of Stand to Reason, an organization devoted to a thoughtful and engaging defense of classical Christianity in the public square. He is also a radio talk show host and author of Relativism—Feet Firmly Planted in Mid-Air.

Be the first to read Gregory Koukl's column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com delivered each morning to your inbox.

The cheapening of life
Yes the Left is obsessed with their own appetites, and they value them more than the lives of others.

They would rather see millions of innocent babies die than have anyone even suggest that they keep their dockers zipped.

This is akin to the people who have an agenda to keep our borders open at any cost, and as we have seen this week, this also leads to death.

I have written- indeed ranted- on this topic in my latest blog: "The greed that killed Christmas." Drop by and comment!

War..
Liberals declare war against babies while conservatives declare war against the enemies of the USA.

Abortion is Nazi-ism at it's purest!

What is "Partial Term"/"Partial Birth"?

I suspect this column, like any other TH article regarding Abortion, will draw out all "the usual suspects" giving all their usual opinions.

So I'll just briefly re-iterate that I can't help but laugh at all the anti-abortion activists who sanctimoniously proclaim that the fetus is a human being at the instant of conception, and to abort it is Murder, but who then casually dismiss the untold millions of unimplanted fetuses who are expelled during menstruation and tossed in the trash or toilet.
Somehow they aren't human??

I'll also leave aside the typically self-contradictory title of this article and simply ask, just what is a "Partial Term" abortion supposed to be, anyway? Is it the same thing as a "Partial Birth" abortion, or is it different somehow? It seems like any abortion is a partial-term abortion; if it's not partial term then it isn't an abortion anymore, it's either contraception (zero-term abortion?) or birth (full-term abortion?).


Partial-Birth Abortion
Interesting article.

I think abortion is well suited for women who have been victimized and raped and are too traumitized to handle an unwanted pregnancy. I feel it is their choice. They need to be in control over this since they had absolutely no control over what happened to them. So, I have to say I am glad women do have safe clinics to go to in order to get an abortion for those reasons.

HOWEVER--abortion today is mostly used as a method to handle, "Ooopsie! I guess I was too drunk to remember a condom! Hee hee!" And so, an unborn child dies. There's a greater lack of responsibility out there amongst sexually active people and they are using abortion as a safety net of "just in case..."

But Partial-Birth abortion is a different magilla all together. If you haven't yet, truly read up on the procedure, see pictures as well.

If the baby threatens the life of the mother, and it was a choice between the baby and the mother, that is a family decision alone. Then Partial Birth Abortion should come into play.

But if it comes down to a simple change of heart because your baby's daddy isn't around and you don't want the baby....then Partial Birth Abortion is simply murder.

There is no abortion
in Juliet Smith's diary. Chapter 9 is now up on my blog. The socialists take a beating in this story.

http://peppermintsplace.townhall.coom

No one with any credibility
can make the case that the "thing" they are aborting during a "partial birth abortion" is not a baby.
Come on, people, this is murder, clear and simple.

Let's see how many of these lefty socialists get on this thread and see them make their claim about this not being a "person".

Flaming Liberal Multiculturalist
"who then casually dismiss the untold millions of unimplanted fetuses who are expelled during menstruation"

Just because people die through natural causes doesn't give us a right to kill them. Even if we knew in advance that someone was going to die, it would in no way justify killing the person. So FLM, your comparison is bogus.

Flaming Liberal Idiot,
Your God (science) has proven the baby is alive and fully developed in the first trimester. Abortionists themselves admit the baby feels the pain of it's death (murder). Sonograms and holograms clearly show this. But yet, has anyone ever seen video of an abortion performed? Prior to the Internet, you never, ever saw a picture of one either. So, with all the evidence, why the cover-up? Why the secrecy? If your cause is so just and right, why not have Americans vote on the issue? Because people would believe what they see and you would lose that so-called "right". But no, you'd rather have 5 judges (that your ilk have personally selected) to make that choice for the rest of us. Don't worry though, justice will be served someday when you (participaters, promoters and supporters of abortion) begin your walk into eternity and that, you cannt escape.

abortion's reality
You want pictures? Here are pictures:(warning...prepare yourself)

http://www.abortionno.org/abortion_no.html

Sex was intended to be between a husband and wife who were prepared to bring children into the world. If a human being is not married, that human being should not be engaging in sex. Humans are actually capable of self-control and honor, believe it or not. Anything outside of marriage is irresponsible and outright stupid. Irresponsibility (and stupidity)in any situation can have terrible consequences that someone will bear...the one bearing the consequences of someone else's irresponsibility in the case of abortion is the most innocent of all.

Flaming Something or Other
FLM writes:
...
"So I'll just briefly re-iterate that I can't help but laugh at all the anti-abortion activists who sanctimoniously proclaim that the fetus is a human being at the instant of conception"

1) at the moment of conception it is a zygote, but I'm splitting hairs. If its not human, what is it then, a zebra? Please explain what it is. I'm desperately curious.


"... and to abort it is Murder..."

2) Since it is of the genus homo sapien sapien and has its own unique DNA, it is a living human being. When you stop a human being from living its called...? Tip: Murder. (Or in the case of a person convicted of a capital crime, its called capital punishment, which means ending a life. Some flamers call that murder but I digress.

"... but who then casually dismiss the untold millions of unimplanted fetuses who are expelled during menstruation and tossed in the trash or toilet. Somehow they aren't human??"

3) I have to tell you that I've been around a long, long time and I've never heard such stupidity. Where do I start? Unimplanted fetuses are again called zygotes. They are not yet fetuses which, by the way, is a medical term for unborn baby. When I was expecting my kids, I never worried about the health or welfare of my fetus. I took care of myself because I was carrying a baby. All women refer to their unborn child as a baby. But again, I digress. Unimplanted zygotes are not expelled during menstruation. Menstruation is the shedding of the uterine lining when fertilization has not taken place. (My high schooler could explain this to you better than I, I'm sure.) What you are trying to describe is a spontaneous abortion (medical term) which we lay-folks refer to as a silent miscarriage. Not very common. And, yes they are human but since the woman doesn't know that the baby/zygote exists, what exactly is your point? And, spontaneous abortions (medical term...lay term = miscarriage) are unavoidable, I can only conclude that rocks pay no deference to you. (I hate to get personal, its really not my style but this is unbelievable. I'm hoping against hope that you are an adolescent and that you haven't gotten to Biology 101 yet. If you are in fact an adult of any age, we, as a society, are doomed.)


"...I'll also leave aside the typically self-contradictory title of this article and simply ask, just what is a "Partial Term" abortion supposed to be, anyway? Is it the same thing as a "Partial Birth" abortion, or is it different somehow? It seems like any abortion is a partial-term abortion; if it's not partial term then it isn't an abortion anymore, it's either contraception (zero-term abortion?) or birth (full-term abortion?)."

4) I think you are referring to what is commonly known as a typo. I'm sure the editor at TH will fix it soon.



I can't add to what the others here have said, i.e., sonograms, basic biology, etc. Abortion is the scourge of our time.

Signed,

A former pro-choicer (until I saw a songram...and it wasn't even mine. Damn, could that clump of cells haul butt around the womb! From that moment, I knew it was all a total bunch of bull, cooked up by men who wanted an easy out and women who somehow felt that they needed to be men to achieve in the business world. And then when I heard my first son's hearbeat at 6 weeks...well, you can figure it out from there. If you ever need to find me, you can catch me across the street from the local abortion clinic.)

Shells...
If abortion is well suited when a woman is too traumatized to handle an unwanted pregnancy (or whatever that means), raped or "victimized" (lordy, am I getting weary of that phrase!), why is it murder when its an oopsie or if the baby daddy (actually I think you mean to say "child's father")isn't around?

Is the occumpant of the woman's womb different in different circumstances? That is to say, is it human in one case but not human in another? Do we get to decide in which case it is human and therefore murder? Following that "logic", then someone can decide when and where you have value or not. N'est pas?

Flaming Liberal
Did you sleep through your 10th grade biology class when they discussed menstruation? What's flushed in menstruation is the unneeded changes the woman's body made in anticipation of getting pregnant because of ovulation. The egg cell was never fertilized, thus it's not needed, and it along with the other preparations are flushed. How you can call this a fetus beggars the imagination. Go back to class and stay awake this time.

Don't wast your time
with Multi Cult Flame Lib. We've been around this bend before.

So.Carolina want to pass a bill that would require a woman to look at the sonogram of their unborn child before they abort it.

Of course the abortion group doesn't want this, claiming it's unjust and a woman should not have to look at this.

Suddenly, the same liberal crowd that fights ferociously for any kind of art work, pictures, sculpture, paintings, etc. to be seen by the public, (their first amendment rights you know) now views looking at a sonogram as obscene.

What's wrong with this picture?

The pro abortion crowd is hanging by a thread now with their own god,(science), debunking their lie about just what is in the womb. Instead of some fictitious piece of "protoplasm" it turns out, surprise, it's a human being.

They will not have an argument left soon as their god science marches on diligently to expose them further.

No matter how they have tried to argue their own twisted view of science over the last 35 years, a picture will be their undoing.

Partial birth abortion
It is disgusting that this procedure has ever been allowed in our country. I have no idea how someone could live with themselves if they either performed this procedure or had it done to their own baby. There is no other name for it, but MURDER.

Shells
While I agree with the bottom three-fourths of your comment. May I respectfully ask that you rethink your logic. You say:

"I think abortion is well suited for women who have been victimized and raped and are too traumitized to handle an unwanted pregnancy. I feel it is their choice."

Yet a bit later you say:

"I guess I was too drunk to remember a condom! Hee hee!" And so, an unborn child dies."

Although this is a popular position it is inconsistent. Either the unborn is a human child in which case no justification for abortion would be needed, or the unborn is not a human child in which case no justification for abortion is necessary. (I learn well Mr. Koukle)
While a victim such as you describe is pitable and their situation is not one that I would wish on anyone, I would not extend that pity to a woman being justified in murderering her 2-year old because she was a product of the violent act of her biological father. Nor, if the unborn is a child as you stated, that she would be justified in killing her in the womb. I would argue that the rapist should be punished to the serverest extent of the law. The child--if the unborn is a human child--has committed no crime.

Oops
I meant to say: Either the unborn is a human child in which case no justification for abortion would be adequate or the unborn is not a human child in which case no justification for abortion is necessary.

Where?
Just where is the right to an abortion found in the constitution? If one looks at the constitution and its supporting documents, such as the Declaration of Independence, one can only find a "right to life". This is the legal argument, the moral one is even more obvious.

BD
Doesn't that just burn you up? That this privacy "right" had to be manufactured by "activist judges" who somehow missed the part about "the right to life".

Yes
Actually it does bother me that the 5th Amendment's private property right is applied in this case, as I do not believe that a fetus or embryo is property. I also find the Roe vs. Wade ruling hypocritical in that the court asserts that the "right to private property" can be minimized or ignored during the second and third trimester. This demonstrates that the decision was entirely political (legislative).

BTW
Don't trust RINO Rudy's quoted self-proclaimed turnaround on this issue. Just a few days ago he clearly stated he supported taxpayer-funded abortions, and called abortions a "right".

He's just a lying pol trying for the Golden Ring.


If these pro abortion
people would be honest (that's an oxymoron) they would want to give women the choice to see the baby in utero so that the woman can make an informed decision, not one that has been made for her, ie. that thing in your uterus is not a baby.

Years down the road so many women suffer with trauma for having aborted a child, but this subject is rarely discussed. It's a dirty little by product of abortion that they don't want out of the closet.

"Abortion" logic is dishonesty
"PRO-CHOICE" IS A MYTH. It is the result of a popular "non-sequitur" (Latin for "the conclusion does not follow the premise"). Women who believe they have a "right" to do what they want to with their own bodies, think they can have an unwanted baby aborted. This conclusion is wrong for the following reasons:

(1) A woman may pass hundreds of seeds through her periods, until she gets married to a man. As soon as her husband fertilizes one of her seeds, this is the moment when a new life begins, that will within 9 months lead to the birth of a child. And that seed is no longer part of her own body which she can choose to kill, but this living seed is now jointly owned by that woman who conceived, and by the man who begot, and by the God who Created life and who begins to form that child's physical and spiritual being (body, soul and conscience). God gave us freedom of choice, but He commanded us to “Choose life, that thou and thy children may live” (Deut 30:19).

(2) The baby is not part of the woman's body, it is only within the body, protected during it’s 9-month development until ready for birth, so neither she nor an abortionist has any "right" to harm the baby in any way. At the moment of conception, when the woman's seed is fertilized by a male sperm, the resulting embryo and the fetus, is very sacred. It is a baby boy or girl who belongs jointly to (a) the man who begot it, to (b) the woman who conceived it, and (c) it especially belongs to God who created the entire birth and life process for His divine purpose. Anything that kills the fruit of conception, regardless of the stage of birth (pre- or partial birth), is murder; it is a sin against our Creator's purpose. Loving parents can care for any child that is born, regardless of it's condition or life span.

The one and only "right" (God-given, responsible freedom) the pregnant woman has, is to care for the baby for about 9 months and give it a successful birth into the world. Then, along with help from the husband, they both have the "right" to raise it to be a responsible, normal boy or girl who will grow up, and marry, and bear and raise the next generation of responsible, normal children. What is the opposite of a "right"? A "wrong."

(3) Wanted babies are the fruit of normal marriage. What would you think of a farmer or gardener, who gets great personal (selfish) pleasure out of sowing good fruit, vegetable, flower and tree seeds into the soil; but after the seeds began to germinate and sprout partially above the ground, would consider them unwanted and mutilate them and kill them with a plough or herbicide, just so that he wouldn't have to be responsible for caring for the plants until they produce their intended fruits?

So, likewise, why are man and woman allowed to engage in sex just for their own temporary selfish pleasure? The only reason God created sexuality in men and women is to consummate normal marriage and bring forth wanted children. They do not have a "right" to commit the sins of fornication and adultery, nor any or the more perverse forms of sex (like incest, sodomy or homosexuality). Any category of sexual relationship that does not produce children, is a sin against the purpose of God. Also, population control, a good Global Community concern, can be accomplished by teaching responsible and self-disciplined sex in marriage.

Charles Sproull, Springville IN

Right On
Gregory

Not only are you right but you have the identical situation with Gays. They are generally accepted.

By accepting them we have let their promiscuous cult spread HIV/AIDS now killing 8000 per Day. Yes per day.

Not only are these kids murdering others they are virtually committing suicide as they die like dogs in their 20's and 30's.

Does anyone really care about Gays? i.e. are we not letting them kill themselves. These are not the children of Gay's these are our children that have become addicted to promiscuous Anal and oral sex and are condemned to die early on from it.

That's only half of the story as they have also entered the field of the child molester.

BloodABoilin'
I was going to write a rebuttal of that completely illogical fool Flaming Multicultural Whatever, but yours was more than sufficient, and your added observation of how a simple sonogram rebutted the best pro-abortionist argument was even better. Thank you.

From the very beginning, the abortion legalization movement has supported its position with an unbroken string of bad science, dishonest language, and criminally sloppy reasoning.

Human v Fetus
This is a simple exercise in logic, for any abortion-legalization proponent who happens to be reading.

"Human" denotes species. One is human as opposed to being bovine, feline, canine, equine, or any other species.

"Fetus" denotes a stage of development. A gestating offspring of any species that develops in this manner is a fetus as opposed to a blastocyst, a zygote, an infant, an adolescent, or an adult.

A phrase such as "it's not human, it's a fetus" is a comparison of unlike types, which always -- ALWAYS -- produces nonsense. Other examples: "Don't crush that dwarf, hand me the pliers." "Do you walk to school, or carry your lunch?" "That's not a zebra, I'm a Mormon." You get the picture. "It's not human, it's a fetus" is a nonsense phrase, like something out of Jaberwocky.

What you mean to say, but are too dishonest to put in accurate terms, is "at the stage of development we call 'fetus', human beings don't have any moral meaning." You don't put it in those terms, though, because then it would be apparent on the face of it that you're making a philosophical argument -- and you want to pretend that it's the OTHER side that's rooted in philosophy/religion, and you want to pretend that YOUR side is scientific, you use the nonsense phrase that makes it sound like you're being scientific.

See? Logic is pretty simple. All you need is a little intellectual honesty.

crud. typo
Last sentence, next to last paragraph, after the dash: "and SINCE you want to pretend" etc.

FLM
I have to congratulate you on what had to be the least intelligent response to abortion I have ever seen. I prepared to rebut your arguments, but so many others have beaten me to it. I'll defer to their answers and simply state that I stand in awe of your ignorance.

Murder
That's what abortion is at all stages of a pregnancy. Why is it not clear to a liberal that a child outside the mom's womb is entitled to keep its life? You guys are supposed to be the most enlightened ones and we're all waiting to see some actual evidence of that.

And you Catholic priests who think I "hate the poor" because I won't pay 75 percent of my income in taxes to redistribute stuff always team up with the abortion, euthanasia, and stem cell crowd. Don't preach to me. I pray for you as you team up with evil itself.

Scribe, easy on the Catholic priests
There are way more good than bad. They just don't get the press because they pose no use to the MSM and its abortion/homosexual/sexual freedom agenda.

Most are in the mold of Fr. McGivney.

BloodABoilin, yes
Of course you are right. Just from where I sit, well, your blood would be a boilin. I'm still right there in the pews and am not leaving. There is just much one has to sit through for that prize of a gift we have been given!

Happy Easter.

Scribe, why do you think I'm in a
constant state of being "torqued up"? I hear you completely, and I fight against it like you. We should stick together (and pray for vocations! Its the young ones who will restore our beloved Church.) The social justice crowd will just fade away.

But I digress (which I would do for hours.). Bless you and Happy Easter.

Paul
Not only are you right but you have the identical situation with Gays. They are generally accepted.

Excuse me...

But, I do believe heterosexuals also contract and pass along HIV/AIDS.

It also seems that gays do NOT have the corner on child molestation. There are sickos in both camps.

Finally, do homosexuals have the corner on promiscuity? Last time I heard, gays could not reproduce, yet how many abortions were performed last year? How many babies have yet to be adopted? Is it a stretch to believe that these pregnancies were largely produced by promiscuity?

Note: Before anyone attacks, let me state that I do not agree with homosexuality. However, as long as they do not push it on me or mine, I don't see how it is any of my business what 2 consenting adults choose to do in their own bedrooms.




oops, sorry
The sentence right under Paul's name, should have quotes around it, as I am quoting him.

Happy Easter
BloodaBoilin, You and all those whom you love have my best wishes for a happy and blessed Easter.

Val
Not everyone finds someone to marry by the age of twenty.

People are going to have sex with the opposite sex, if for no other reason than to keep up with the rest of humanity.

Abortion
"Partial Birth" or not, is not about abortion. Planned Parenthood asked this question at their first meeting, "How will we get America to believe this is not really Life?" Abortion is about the devil and his deeds on this earth. Abortion is a tool of the devil. It is our duty to bring about God's kingdom on this earth and we're fighting a spiritual battle. God is so merciful, but I seriously don't know how long his mother, Mary, can hold back His hand of justice....

37 comments
and only one by a pro abortion individual. Their arguments are getting thin indeed. They can no longer defend their position.

Abortion cannot be discussed rationally
Anyone who challenges the status quo that a woman's right to abortion is sacred at all times is called a single-issue absolutist. The problem is that almost all of the public discussion is between the pro-abortion absolutists and pro-life absolutists with no middle ground. I have a big problem with 45 million abortions since Roe v. Wade became law. It is a national catastrophe on more than moral grounds. It speaks volumes about our lack of individual responsibility. We need to be able to discuss abortion intelligently. I believe abortion should be legal (maybe) but extremely rare - as in we've heard about them but don't actually know anyone who actually had one. There is no way even the most strident, but rational, pro-abortionist can justify 45 million abortions and that is the opening to the question: "So what do we do about it?"

Abortion is a private matter
The decision as to whether to have an abortion or not is a private matter between a woman, her partner, and her medical practitioner. It is NOT a political issue and does not belong in a public forum. If one objects to abortion on religious or other grounds, fine, but s/he has no right to impose their opinion on others. Roe v. Wade permits this medical procedure to be safe and legal, performed by a licensed professional in an accredited facility where it should be.

Furthermore, I notice that this article was written by a man and men have no idea what its like to undergo an unwanted pregnancy, especially the result of a rape. No, motherhood does not come naturally and any woman forced to bear a child she does not want will tell you that. I am opposed to any political candidate who makes it a public issue and will not vote for him or her.

When men stop talking about what we women should or shouldn't do with our reproductive organs, we will stop discussing what you can or cannot do with yours.

Mary
It IS a political issue when there are 45 million abortions in 30+ years and much of it was at taxpayer expense. If it were only about dealing with back alley abortions, the number would be much lower. You could then argue that eliminating a few thousand botched, illegal abortions does not justify killing 45 million babies. Clearly, abortion is a major problem for our society. We are the only free country that allows such draconian abortion right. And if men are not allowed to discuss abortion, you are making a strong argument for why women shouldn't have a right to speak about most issues. "Shut up!" is a schoolyard argument used by brats and bullies.

Reason and logic are the domain of anyone who knows how to use them. Those who don't resort to name calling or declare the discussion over.

Partial Birth Abortion
Let this old geezer comment. One of the steps in performing this gruesome procedure is to induce breech birth. Breech birth as I understand it is the most dangerous way to deliver a child and OBY/GN's avoid it like a plague whenever possible. It is very dangerous for the woman. Why in heavens name do the pro-abortion folks say that partial birth abortion utilizing breech birth is done sometimes to save the life of the mother? This doesn't make sense. Someone please enlighten me.

If not for abortion
than Europe would still be Europe. Births would have not declined to the point that mass immigration was needed. Thus, they wouldn't be having *muslim problems* or *immigrant problems* or even *assimilation problems.*

Same (tho to a lesser degree) with America and all other western nations. And who is going to be *breeding* faster than natives?

I can tell of ONE situation in which I WISH that an abortion decision had been ONLY between a woman, her husband and the doctor. A LOOONNNGGG time ago, my mother was found to be pregnant with her 14th child. She asked NOT to be pregnant, the doctor said, "Too late." She died way too soon from complications of that pregnancy. But this will NEVER be seen today except in South American countries.

Chuck;
"Abortion" logic is dishonesty. What more can we expect from the culture of lies that is the left? Any issue liberals ever pushed that was actually good for society has been accepted and incorporated into our society. We never hear about it because the vast majority agrees with it.

Whatever we honorable and moral people fight for or against, their side HAS to be obfuscated by lies to fool those of us who are too busy trying to survive to study the issues. It is the left's only real power.

As a nod to L. Frank Baum, we who "pay no attention to that man behind the curtain" are the ones who get the heart, the brain, the courage. It is we who will find our way home.

The rest of the story....
Dear Gregory,
Unless you are out of sperms and your wife is out of eggs, I have a tough question for you. What if you know that tests show that your wife is carrying a mal-formed and obviously failed array of genetic activity that is producing a certain result that will overwhelm your ability to cope.

At the same time you recognize that your wife has several other eggs and you enough sperms to fertilize and bring that combination on-stream to the gestation process that will be denied, if the current pregancy is not terminated. Do you two have the right to opt for a second chance with the next in line? Or does the state have the right to forbid it and thus murder the embryo that you could have started?

Is it different when a breach delivery puts the head in the impossible position of being virtually undeliverable without destroying the mother to release it? Does the state have the right, duty, or obligation to interfere with or eliminate any decison that you two might make?

Some religious persons subscribe to the idea that any fetus that can live must become your burden, no matter what the alternatives. If that is your choice, I defend it. If others reach a different conclusion, I support it too.

To my knowledge no animal is prevented from eating its own babies to balance the food supply. The white footed Boobie of the Galapogos flys 100 miles to get food for its young and lays two eggs even though it can only support one. If the first one doesn't hatch, the back-up can be fed. If not, the older sibling is taught to kill the younger one to learn this hard lesson of survival.

I have no problem with letting each human pair make their decisions on family and live with whatever consequences other than having to answer to the state.


Keepontryon
Excuse me but we are not animals, we are humans. Go home and eat your own young and try telling those arguments to the judge.

Mary
1) What makes abortion a private matter?

2) Does this private matter have public implications to the society as a whole?

3) I want to molest my children. That is a private matter that should be between me, my husband, should he decide to partake. Since the kids are minors and under my care and custody, their opinion is discounted.

4) What percentage of abortions are performed by a woman's own gynocologist?

5) How much weight is given to the partner's wishes and his 50% stake in the abortion?

5) Has abortion created an environment where men (and women, for that matter) do not take responsibility for their actions on any level?

6) How many women, of the millions upon millions who have had abortions, have realized what an abortion REALLY is, that is to say, the "clump of cells" is actually a seperate, unique individual with his or her own DNA, heartbeat and appendages of all kinds, by the time they were aborted? How many of those women are have been devestated by that realization?

7) How many women became pregnant because the sex seemed so appealing at the time and there was always a "back door" through which they escaped?

8) How many of those women devestated by abortion, could have avoided the heartache by not engaging in sexual intercourse in a situation where an unintended pregnancy would be disasterous?

9) Is it ethical to kill a child because it has handicap(s)? If so, which ones: cleft palate, club foot, spina bifida, Down's syndrome, wrong sex, cystic fibrosis, heart valve malformations?

10) Has child abuse risen since Roe v. Wade? Is every child a loved and wanted child?

11) At what point does a developing fetus attain the milestone of "personhood" where it is entitled to legal protections under the law?

Keep on tryin
So, we play baby roulette until we get the perfect one?

OK, so we abort the disabled ones today. How about the ones who are...let's say, too short, or maybe not smart enough (not Downs, mind you, just not Einstein) tomorrow?

And, just to confuse the issue, what do we do with the children who become disabled AFTER birth, due to illness or injury? Put a pillow over their heads? (Stephen Hawkings mother should have had that option.)

And, for the record, a breach presentation requires a C-section in which the life of both mother and child are maintained. For the record, I would like to meet the woman who wants to kill her baby just because he or she is in the breach position. Good luck finding her. (I would suggest spending some time in the maternal fetal medicine unit in your local hospital where women spend months on end lying on their left side or on complete bed rest to protect their unborn young. Its a truly inspiring place to be to watch those courageous women fight for their babies lives.)

Flaming Lib

You write > "So I'll just briefly re-iterate that I can't help but laugh..."

You could have stoped right there. We got YOUR point. That you are an uncaring, uniformed idiot. Laugh that off cuz I'm having a good belly laugh at your expense right now!

BTW
If your post was meant to shock I assure you it did. I find it shocking that anyone over the age of 10 (I'm guessing) can be so ignorant of the FACTS then spout off like they know something.

Mary Asatruar
If men have nothing to say about abortion then we should immediately overturn Roe v. Wade as nine Male judges handed down that foolish ruling.

Kudos to...
BloodABoilin...damn, you're good. Keep it up, and keep praying.

Let's pray especially for the abortionists and all those who work for them, assist them, and empower them. I read that many are leaving the field as they come to realize the horror of what they are doing. Pray for them.

And pray for the girls/women who have had abortions.

Someone earlier posted the abortionNO.com website. Go see it. Especially those who are pro-abortion. Read the lamentations of the women who were scarred by abortion. If they don't bring tears to your eyes, well...

Allow me to quote one from a woman of 31, already the mother of three, the youngest with heart disease, who was concerned (no, that's not strong enough) fearful of her future when she was again pregnant. She gave in and allowed the abortion of her baby at 5 to 7 weeks. Two months later she wrote,

"I feel shattered inside and out. I can't even say the word "baby" without feeling so guilty, ... Please inform all women young and old, unmarried or married, because this will scar you forever and deeply."

"(abortion) will scar you forever and deeply."


Bloodaboilin
May I add to your reply to keepontryin that in China today, because of their "one child" policy, unborn females are overwhelmingly culled because males are considered more desirable. Is gender selection a legitimate reason to abort?

Correction
The link was to:

http://www.abortionno.org not .com.

Sorry

Fact is

The abortion crowd and the MSM are not about to tell the truth on the "Partial Birth" issue. They are content to try to keep it linked with Roe and make it sound as innocuous a treatment as possible to keep the money flowing in from their donors.

The odd part is that I have had to fully explain & describe the procedure to people who are on the Roe side of the issue... until the procedure is explained to them, in all its disgusting detail, they mostly see the argument the way the abortionists want them to see it, as the government and, extremist religious groups trying to take a womans "constitutional right" to choose away (hello Rudy?).

I get a perverse thrill watching the blood drain from their faces when they FINALLY come to the realization that they are advocating nothing short of the GRUESOME MURDER of a defenseless life.

Oddly enough, IF the real procedure, the truth ever gets to the masses, it could turn Roe on its ear, as more people see they have allowed the woman's right to choose to evolve and to become a woman's right to murder.
That it is all about state sanctioned murder, paid for with their tax dollars doesn't sit well with anyone I've talked to (liberals all) about it either.

At least for those I've talked to the issue has crystalized, their resolve is to now oppose ALL abortion if that's what it will take to end the murder that has been coined "Partial Birth Abortion" by the killers.



Separate Laws
The "Laci and Conner's Law" states that an assailant who attacks a pregnant woman while committing a violent federal crime can be prosecuted for separate offenses against both the woman and her unborn child.

Under that law the unborn is referred to as a CHILD, but under Roe v. Wade the same unborn child can be legally killed.

The only legitimate argument the pro-choice people have is that abortion is legal; they have on their side Roe v. Wade. If the unborn or partial-born is a living human life, then the fact that it's legal to kill it means only one thing: the law is wrong.
***
Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 or Laci and Conner's Law:
As used in this section, the term `unborn child' means a child in utero, and the term `child in utero' or `child, who is in utero' means a member of the species homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb...
`(ii) the accused intended to cause the death of, or bodily injury to, the unborn child.
Note: HR 1997 was placed on the U.S. Senate calendar on March 25, 2004, passed by a roll call vote of 61-38, and signed into law by Pres. Bush on April 1, 2004

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/abortion/unbornbill32504.html

Mary Asatruar
If abortion is a private matter would it also be a private matter to kill your four-year-old or your teenage child who at some point in her life became and inconvenience to you? The largest problem with this debate is that for years states had laws that made abortions illegal. Legislators who possessed neither the courage nor the votes to make abortions legal were saved by a bunch of elitist men in black robes who found a way through cleverness and disguise to call all such laws unconstitutional. Had the debate been held in the legislatures and had any state legislated the decision to make abortions legal, many opponents to the practice would probably have sighed and walked away. The cause to overturn is supported by Constitutionalists like myself, persons of religious belief and persons of other moral convictions. Roe v Wade was a black mark on our court and all those men who as you say know nothing about the female perspective of the birth process will go down in my history book as evil. They are personally responsible thus far for an estimated 45 million deaths. There should be a special place in Hell reserved for Harry Blackmun, Thurgood Marshall, William Brennan, Chief Justice Warren Burger, Lewis Powell, Potter Stewart and William Douglas.

Contrary to another posting that I spotted here, the actual majority opinion cites the 14th Amendment that was intended to prevent anyone denying a former slave due process and the right to vote. No state may "deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the law." There that really spells it out, doesn't it. Blackmun et.al. saw it as clear as day. Women have the right to unnaturally terminate their pregnancy and kill their unborn children. It is written right there. Does everyone see it?

Byron White and William Rehnquist, to their credit, dissented.

Flaming Liberal Multiculturalist

Are you trying to tell us that you regard menstruation to be an unnatural act? I certainly regard abortion as an unnatural act, totally unlike menstruation or miscarriage.

I have yet to hear any doctor argue that a partial birth abortion is ever done to protect the life of the mother. Supporters of this procedure are normally very careful to state the procedure protects the health of the mother. This could be anything from protecting them from embarrassment, economic fears or headaches. Like the author, I would call it infanticide to deliver all but the head, insert a pair of surgical scissors into the skull, suck the brains of the child from its head and then remove a surprisingly dead baby the remaining three or four inches from the birth canal. How could it possibly help to save the mother's life when the baby is all but delivered before the procedure takes place?

Chuck - an excellent post.

Supreme Court
During the Supreme Court hearing of the arguments in the partial-birth abortion case, the lawyer defending the procedure made the astonishing statement that the procedure was safer (than earlier term abortions)because it required fewer insertions of medical instruments into the woman's body. Wow!

Chief Justice Roberts (I believe) then asked, why not, then, allow the baby to fully emerge from its mother and then suck its brains out,
Then there would be no instruments inserted into the woman's body?

(Obviously that is not an exact quote; I believe that is the substance of his question.)

To which they had no answer. BECAUSE THERE IS NO ANSWER.

Please pray that God will withhold his wrath and bring an end to this holocaust.


The slippery slope
Legal abortion was first permitted at about the same time the birth control pill was first marketed.

Abortions at that time were strictly circumscribed, and were permitted only with the certification of three doctors that the mother would suffer serious physical or psychological harm if her pregnancy went to term.

When it was suggested that ANY legalization of abortion would be to take the first step down that slippery slope leading to abortion-on-demand and abortion-as-birth-control, proponents were quick to claim that this wouldn't happen. One of their arguments was that given the reliable birth control now available, there would be no need for abortion absent grave circumstances.

Well.

We started hearing that legal abortion was only available to "the rich" who could afford the mandatory consultations, which resulted in a relaxation of the standards. States responded by making their own rules, with some being restrictive, others permissive. This all culminated in Roe vs. Wade.

The slippery-slope prophets were right, of course. They were also right in their predictions that the intrinsic value of human life would come to be denied, and that its value would come to be conditional upon its convenience.

Affirming a ban on partial-birth abortions, separated only by seconds from outright infanticide, would help stem our current free-fall toward the total devaluation of inconvenient human life, regardless of its age.

Think that's a little rash? Look at the current lunacy of the movement for pet hospice care gaining impetus right alongside the movement to euthanize Grandpa.

mamadoc
I don't think you are being rash at all. All I can say to your post is one big AMEN!

We do not wish them ill
Concervative Ron

Please, sir, we do not wish that the members of the Supreme Court who voted in favor of Voe v. Wade should rot in Hell.

We pray for them and pray that the Good God will give them the grace to see the horror of their decision, repent and ask His forgiveness, which He has promised to all (of us) who ask.

It can happen. It is happening. Norma McCorvey (the Jane Roe of Roe vs. Wade) did repent, ask and receive forgiveness, and was received into the Catholic Church, and is now an active and courageous pro-life advocate.

Please, God, Bless America.

ps. Is it OK to wish that the abortionists who do repent and get to purgatory are placed a day's walk from the water cooler?

ps2. I guess not. Father forgive me. Then I'd probably be placed a week's walk from the water cooler, and be given a thimble to fill.

Priests for Life
Wander around priestsforlife.org, check out the images, enter Norma McCorvey in the search engine and read her interview with Father Pavone.

Please.

Yeah, I Pretty Much Called It
57 comments from yesterday afternoon till now, many of the "usual suspects" and some folks I've never heard of before (Howdy), several of the same arguments, and a teeny bit less than the usual amount of insults, name-calling and verbal abuse. Maybe that's why I'll resist the temptation to reply in kind.

drew writes:
"Just because people die through natural causes doesn't give us a right to kill them. Even if we knew in advance that someone was going to die, it would in no way justify killing the person. So FLM, your comparison is bogus."

Ah yes, the "it's natural" argument. You misunderstand me, or perhaps you don't want to admit that you DO understand. I seek no justification to kill anyone. But I also don't ignore the death of human beings, and choose not to lift a finger to try and save them or to at least mourn their deaths, just because their deaths are from natural causes. Hurricane Katrina and the Indian Ocean Tsunami were 'natural acts', but we didn't stand idly by and let those human beings die, did we? (Those of us not employed by FEMA, anyway.) Yet, about half of fertilized human eggs (zygotes,and fully realized human beings according to you right-to-life folks) do not implant, and end up in the toilet or trash. If you believe we are fully and completely human beings when we are conceived, why aren't you trying to save these people, why aren't you insisting that all sexually active women be confined during their menstrual cycle, which should be carefully parsed for uni- (or bi-, quad-, or even mega-) cellular fully realized human beings to try and save, or to at least mourn and bury properly? (Maybe you could get Rick Santorum to do it, I hear he's not so busy these days...)

Or could it be that, as long as you're sitting idle and comfy at your computer and pouring out your sanctimonious abuse on some unfortunate woman who needs an abortion, THEN full humanity obviously begins at the instant of conception, but when faced with the necessity of turning YOUR OWN life upside down in order to live in consistency with your stated beliefs, then suddenly that Zygote isn't quite so fully a Human Being as it was while your hindquarters were in your comfy chair?

For that matter, when a woman suffers a miscarriage why isn't it the norm to have a funeral, a period of morning, and a burial? According to the "life begins at conception" school of thought here was a life that began, flourished a few months, and then was tragically cut short. Why do we not behave the same way as when a young child tragically dies?

CT writes:
"Flaming Liberal Idiot,
Your God (science) has proven the baby is alive and fully developed in the first trimester."

Really?? How silly of God to waste another six months.... BTW I'm Catholic, CT. I USE science and logic as best as I can, I don't worship them.

"Abortionists themselves admit the baby feels the pain of it's death (murder)."

The Gibbering Fiendish Abortionists who inhabit your imagination may rub their hands together in Ghoulish Glee and proclaim so, but we in the pro-choice movement think that if a pregnancy is terminated early enough, (like before the development of the nervous system) it's unlikely.

"....So, with all the evidence, why the cover-up? Why the secrecy? If your cause is so just and right, why not have Americans vote on the issue? "

I'm not sure what you're referring to here, WRTO secrecy. I'm certainly not in favor of keeping any information about Abortion secret. Put it ALL up on the net! Perhaps you're referring to the SC state law about FORCING pregnant women to look at their fetuses (fetii?) before they could have an abortion? Yeah, I wasn't in favor of that. Y'know what gave me a real chuckle, though? I few days later there was this BIG ARTICLE right here on TH about how those sniveling Liberal types were trying to create a "Nanny State" here in red-blooded independent America by trying pass laws to make us do what was good for us in their Liberal Eyes, while wasting taxpayer money. Funny how that article said nothing about the SC state legislature, isn't it?

Upon PRECISELY what would you have Americans vote? (And mind you, I'm not going to try and protect you from all the States Rights zealots.)

BloodABoilin writes
".... If its not human, what is it then, a zebra? Please explain what it is. I'm desperately curious."

Ah yes, the "species" argument. Well, 'B-A-B', my hair is Human hair, but I cut it, because it's not a FULLLY REALIZED HUMAN BEING. My fingernails and toenails are Human nails but my wife gets pissed if I don't keep them trimmed, and I do so with no qualms because they aren't FULLY REALIZED HUMAN BEINGS, they're finger- and toe- nails. When I go to bathroom I...well, nevermind. It is when we unjustifiably kill a FULLY REALIZED HUMAN BEING that we are guilty of murder.

As ElizabethBennett noted above, if it's a human being at the instant of conception then it ALWAYS is, not just when it's convenient to your ideology. It's a human being when it's stuck to your tampon, and if you are sexually active and not using contraception and it's taking you more than one menstrual cycle to get pregnant, then chances are you've been tossing human beings into the trash or toilet.

" Unimplanted zygotes are not expelled during menstruation. Menstruation is the shedding of the uterine lining when fertilization has not taken place. (My high schooler could explain this to you better than I, I'm sure.) What you are trying to describe is a spontaneous abortion (medical term) which we lay-folks refer to as a silent miscarriage. Not very common.... I'm hoping against hope that you are an adolescent and that you haven't gotten to Biology 101 yet."

I got to Bio 101 about 35 years ago, & aced it. And there I learned that roughly half the time the zygote or fetus (it does divide before implantation) does not ever successfully implant. And I do not believe this phenomenon is called 'spontaneous abortion'. That, which is less common, is when the fetus does not stay implanted.

MarkJ writes (and I removed the insults):
"Did you sleep through your 10th grade biology class when they discussed menstruation? What's flushed in menstruation is the unneeded changes the woman's body made in anticipation of getting pregnant because of ovulation. The egg was never fertilized..."

You infer that all fertilized eggs implant, and this is plain wrong, around half do not. I guess it may be true that the zygote can be expelled at other times than just during the menstrual cycle.....

nkling_revival writes:
"A phrase such as "it's not human, it's a fetus" is a comparison of unlike types, which always -- ALWAYS -- produces nonsense..... "It's not human, it's a fetus" is a nonsense phrase."

This is an imprecision of language, but that imprecision is exploited more by the pro-life side of this debate than by the pro-choice side. See 'BloodABoilin' above, who does not distinguish between species DNA and the Human Soul when it's convenient to her purposes.

"What you mean to say, but are too dishonest to put in accurate terms, is "at the stage of development we call 'fetus', human beings don't have any moral meaning." You don't put it in those terms, though, because then it would be apparent on the face of it that you're making a philosophical argument -- and you want to pretend that it's the OTHER side that's rooted in philosophy/religion, and you want to pretend that YOUR side is scientific, you use the nonsense phrase that makes it sound like you're being scientific."

I can't speak for all pro-choice advocates, but I wouldn't call my argument a scientific one. I guess I start with some facts from freshman Bio, but what I'm trying to underline is the Utter and Blatant hypocrisy of those who regard the fetus as a Fully Realized Human Being when they condemn a woman seeking an Abortion, but don't LIVE that belief when it would be inconvenient for them. This seems like more of a common sense than a philosophical argument.

Chuck Writes:
"(1) A woman may pass hundreds of seeds through her periods, until she gets married to a man. As soon as her husband fertilizes one of her seeds, this is the moment when a new life begins, that will within 9 months lead to the birth of a child. And that seed is no longer part of her own body which she can choose to kill, but this living seed is now jointly owned by that woman who conceived, and by the man who begot, and by the God who Created life and who begins to form that child's physical and spiritual being (body, soul and conscience). God gave us freedom of choice, but He commanded us to “Choose life, that thou and thy children may live” (Deut 30:19).

(2) The baby is not part of the woman's body, it is only within the body, protected during it’s 9-month development until ready for birth, so neither she nor an abortionist has any "right" to harm the baby in any way. At the moment of conception, when the woman's seed is fertilized by a male sperm, the resulting embryo and the fetus, is very sacred. It is a baby boy or girl who belongs jointly to (a) the man who begot it, to (b) the woman who conceived it, and (c) it especially belongs to God who created the entire birth and life process for His divine purpose."

I've already commented on the hypocrisy of most people who decree that Humanity begins at conception. But here I have to ask Chuck: What do you make of the fact that this zygote, this fertilized egg, develops into both the fetus AND THE PLACENTA? Is the Placenta just as sacred as the Fetus? (Their origins appear equally divine to me...) We just throw away the Placenta y'know. (Though there are recipes...)

Also, Deuteronomy 30:19 does not refer to Abortion. The life God exhorts us to choose is the life of his Word in general, as his Word is Life. See Exodus 21:22-25 which shows that God regards the loss of a Woman's fetus as a lesser injury than the loss of her hand, foot, or eye. This is one of the origins of the ancient Hebrew view that the fetus is fully human when it's head and shoulders emerge from the womb.

Conservative Ron writes:
"Are you trying to tell us that you regard menstruation to be an unnatural act?"

I have to say I've found my arguments misinterpreted in a variety of ways before, but never like this. If you've read the above hopefully you understand better.

My Own View (Culled from "Abortion and the Politics of Ultrasound (TH 3/26/2007)")

Certainly the newborn is a human being, and to kill it would be murder. The ancient Hebrew tradition declared the child fully human when it's head and shoulders emerged from the womb. That seems harsh to me, I think the child was just as human the day before it was born. I agree that a woman's right to control her own body does not give her the right to commit murder, and at some point (and that point comes before birth) the developing fetus is a human being and it's abortion would be murder.

I don't know when that point in time occurs, but the Abortion debate will not progress beyond sloganeering and name-calling until we realize that this is a conflict between two valid, legitimate, and fundamentally vital rights: That of a Human Being to live, and that of a Woman to control her own body.

In my opinion our legal system has to make some kind of rough estimate as to when a developing fetus must be considered to be a human being, and among the factors informing that decision, maybe more than anything else, should be an appreciation of the way people traditionally view and behave towards unimplanted zygotes and miscarried fetuses when we aren't debating Abortion.

For the reasons I describe above I find it obviously ridiculous to consider the just-fertilized embryo to be a fully realized human being. (Doesn't this single cell grow into both the fetus and the placenta??) If a woman wants an Abortion she should do it ASAP and unencumbered by waiting periods. If the decision is put off for too long, then it really would be murder.

Flaming Liberal Multiculturalist
May I ask you when you consider a 'developing fetus; to be a human being?

Flaming Liberal Multiculturalist
Sir,

You say, "...our legal system has to make some kind of a ROUGH ESTIMATE (emphasis mine)as to whan a developing fetus must be considered to be a human being..."

And I infer that you would say that after that date, the roughly estimated date, the aborting of that baby would be murder, but before it, it would be morally OK.

But what if that rough estimate were off by 24 hours? Would you want that decision on your conscience?

Would you choose to believe what some human judges say about when human life starts?

I wouldn't.

I choose to believe the Word of God who said, "Before you were knit in the womb, I knew you."

Please, sir, pray on this. I do believe you are seeking the Truth, as we all are.




Flaming Liberal Multiculturalist
Life begins when a egg with 23 chromosomes unites with a sperm with 23 chromosomes creating a zygote with 46 chromosomes. A seperate, living and distinct human being. To argue that if zygotes are unintentionally expelled during menstrual cycles then those who would protect the unborn are hypocrites is a logical contortion that is painful to read. Would you consider me a hypocrite if I drew a distinction between a mother unintentionally killing her children in a car crash and a mother who intentionally drowns her children so that she would have more time to spend with her new boyfriend?

Oops
My fat fingers typed "whan" instead of "when".

Sorry.

Hey Flaming lib...
....are you a fully functioning human yet? When does your life begin? Can we abort you?

FLM
I'm glad you're sticking around to discuss this.
I'll only address my portion of the argument.

"For that matter, when a woman suffers a miscarriage why isn't it the norm to have a funeral, a period of morning, and a burial"

You're making a severe error in assuming that a person's worth is based on how others feel about her. When a homeless man dies and nobody sheds a tear and nobody holds a funeral, does this mean that the homeless man wasn't a human being with a right to live?

"but when faced with the necessity of turning YOUR OWN life upside down in order to live in consistency with your stated beliefs"

Your charge of hypocrisy is irrelevant. Even if i am a hypocrite that doesn't mean babies should be mercilessly killed because they're inconvenient. That said, i'll address your comment.

Think about the rescuing of all embryos with a parallel analogy. If you own a boat, are you under any moral obligation to continually sail the ocean looking for people who've been shipwrecked? I mean just in case someone's boat has sunk? According to your logic, if you don't sail the ocean looking for survivors, you don't believe those survivors are valuable human beings.

Of course, it's ridiculous to even consider such an obligation. This is parallel to attempting to save every embryo.

On the other hand, if you happen to be out sailing and you have good reason to believe that someone is near your boat who is in need of grave assistance, would it be morally ok for you to do your best to make your boat an inpenetrable fortress so that such a desperate person could have little chance of rescue?

See the difference? When people have sex,they have good reason to believe that an innocent human being needs assistance. Yet by using IUDs and abortifacient birth control drugs, their response is to make their boat an inpenetrable fortress. This is an immoral response.

Dilation and Extraction
His story is very misleading. The fetus is not outside, it is partially in the uterus. The largest part of the fetus (the head) is suctioned to reduce the size and make it less difficult to remove the fetus.

Flaming Something or Other
Get off the crack. Seriously, you make no sense. And, just as an aside, science has come a long way in 35 years (but I don't think you fully grasped even the tiniest bit of it even then.)

Spontaneous abortion is the medical term for miscarriage, whether you believe it or not. Ask your wife's gynocologist. On the other hand, tooth fairy is the fantasy term for the little glowing light that puts dollars under your pillow when you loose a tooth. That's probably more your speed.

And, yes, women do mourn a loss through miscarriage. Many do have funerals, depending on how old the baby was. My 2 miscarriages were early on and I still mourn to this day for the children I lost. My sister had a miscarriage at 5 months. She held the baby and had a funeral with his earthly body.

Please, get some rest.

Flaming Liberal Multiculturalist
I apologize for the multiple posts, the length of your post must be my excuse. You do have a point when you say:
"What do you make of the fact that this zygote, this fertilized egg, develops into both the fetus AND THE PLACENTA? Is the Placenta just as sacred as the Fetus?"
So let me clarify that the zygote must of course have an embryonic plate to be considered human life.

DA
Which part(s) of the baby are inside the birth canal and which part(s) are outside when the scissors are used to puncture the base of the skull and the brain is suctioned out?

Answer: The head. Hence the term: Partial-Birth Abortion. In truth, it should be called Nearly-Total Birth Infanticide.

The baby is turned upside down and backwards so that his face looks at the back of the mother. His entire body, up to and past the shoulders, are dangling out of the vagina when the "doctor" kills it. As you said, the brain is suctioned out so that the skull collapses and it is easily pulled out.

Nice, huh? If you can defend that, maybe you can get yourself on the list of hopefuls for the Dr. Goebbles Medical Fellowship.

The right to .....kill?
I never understood those who openly and fully embraced the so-called 'right' to have an abortion. Taking a life, is taking a life. This is not warfare between two armies. It is not about self-defense to protect your family. It is about killing an unborn child just because you don't want it. I am very puzzled by those who rabidly defend the 'right to choose' ideology when it comes to abortion. Right to choose? To choose to kill or not to kill? Is that the question?

Liberals fully embrace a pro-abortion stance but their stance comes at the price of being labled 'hypocrite'. They will rally around the defense of a convicted criminal sentenced to death by the courts and plead for their life but won't lift a finger to save a human child. They will give thousands to save the whales, the rainforest or some small tree frog no one ever sees but once every 25 years but won't say a word of disgust when a woman walks into an abortion clinic to have her own child killed. This is not a surgical procedure; it is plain, outright murder. Even vegetarians seem to promote abortion but cringe when they see videos of cows being killed for sustenance. The defense of abortion is highly hypocritical.

I have heard the counterpoint of 'what about rape?' My counter question is, 'is every abortion caused by rape?'

What about the poor? My counter question 'condoms are not expensive and neither is self control'.

Medical science has evolved to the point where we are nearly able to manipulate our own genetic structure which will make birth defects obsolete. Even this age old defense of 'what about' is beginning to crumble.

But I guess saving the whales is much more important than saving your own species. We speak of kindness and love but then scoop live babies out of a woman's womb robbing that child of it's own life.

I agree with the comments made before mine. If you can defend abortion; then maybe you can get on the list for the Dr. Goebbles Medical Fellowship.

Or even Doctor Mengela???

Various Replies

I see that some of the pro-life types are responding with more typical levels of nastiness.
Skipping the a--holes, then:

ElizabethBennett writes (In several posts):
"To argue that if zygotes are unintentionally expelled during menstrual cycles then those who would protect the unborn are hypocrites is a logical contortion that is painful to read."

I suggest that this is a painful read for you only because it's pointing out a common hypocrisy that you and most other pro-life folks have been comfortably living with. If we are going to consider the newly-conceived to be Fully Human, where is the 'logical contortion' in simply requiring that we ALWAYS consider them that way, not just when we feel like it? That sounds like plain-old smooth CONSISTENCY to me, not a 'logical contortion'.

"Would you consider me a hypocrite if I drew a distinction between a mother unintentionally killing her children in a car crash and a mother who intentionally drowns her children."

No I would not. But you and I everybody's doctor know that around half of Zygotes don't implant; you can't call the act of casually discarding these Human Beings without even the courtesy of a decent burial to be unintentional!

Or, uh, maybe the idea that the newly-conceived zygote is a Fully Realized Human Being is JUST SILLY? You seem to be coming around to this point of view when you write:

"You do have a point when you say:
'What do you make of the fact that this zygote, this fertilized egg, develops into both the fetus AND THE PLACENTA? Is the Placenta just as sacred as the Fetus?'
So let me clarify that the zygote must of course have an embryonic plate to be considered human life."

I think you may be mis-stating here; I've been told that the zygote is unicellular. I don't know what an 'embryonic plate' is, but it's made of cells, isn't it? But if you are even starting to appreciate the absurd places to which we are lead when we insist that Humanity begins at conception, I wont be picky about terminology.


bigfootbob writes:
"You say, '...our legal system has to make some kind of a ROUGH ESTIMATE (emphasis mine)as to whan a developing fetus must be considered to be a human being...'

And I infer that you would say that after that date, the roughly estimated date, the aborting of that baby would be murder, but before it, it would be morally OK."

Look, I have no divine insight here. I would strive to use any legal decision about when a developing fetus must be thought of as human as a marker to try and make sure all abortions occur much earlier than that time. Before that date, it'd be LEGALLY OK, you can't legislate morality.

drew quoting me writes:
"'For that matter, when a woman suffers a miscarriage why isn't it the norm to have a funeral, a period of morning, and a burial'

You're making a severe error in assuming that a person's worth is based on how others feel about her."

I make no such assumptions. But I DEMAND that
your own behavior be consistent with the way that you're trying to force ME (and my wife) to behave. If my wife & I have to bring another child into the world because our condom ruptured and instantly created a new Human Being then you'd BETTER mourn that miscarriage at three months just like you would if (God forbid) your young child was run over by a car or some such tragedy. And that's why I can't believe it when you actually write:

"Your charge of hypocrisy is irrelevant. Even if i am a hypocrite that doesn't mean babies should be mercilessly killed because they're inconvenient."

Oh YES it IS RELEVANT, if your hypocrisy is to let all the ones die that it'd be inconvenient for YOU to save, or at least bury decently. Your boat-&-ocean analogy is too big to cut & paste, but you're sailing by the drowning people all around your boat because your spy glass is fixed on the horizon, where you think you see somebody being tossed overboard.

If your claim about how my wife & I have to live our lives is based in hypocrisy, why should I regard it with anything other than contempt?

among some other nasty stuff, B-A-B writes:

"Flaming Something or Other"

That's 'Liberal Multiculturalist' I added the 'Multiculturalist' when I heard that Bill O'Reilly views 'Dora the Explorer' as a subversive multicultural influence. WHAT A DORK!

"....Spontaneous abortion is the medical term for miscarriage, whether you believe it or not."

What I think is you're too busy being NASTY to realize you're agreeing with me. If 'miscarriage' means the premature departure of the fetus from the uterine wall then we are saying the same thing. If 'miscarriage' also describes the expulsion of a zygote or blastocyst that didn't implant in the first place then I stand corrected, not that it's relevant to anything worthwhile.

"And, yes, women do mourn a loss through miscarriage. Many do have funerals, depending on how old the baby was. My 2 miscarriages were early on and I still mourn to this day for the children I lost. My sister had a miscarriage at 5 months. She held the baby and had a funeral with his earthly body."

I'm sorry for your and our sister's losses. But I still maintain that our society almost always regards miscarried fetuses very differently than deceased little children, and is therefore hypocritical to demand that a pregnant woman has to behave as if her fetus were fully human the whole nine months.

I think that one of the bad side effects of the increasingly strident and polarized debate over abortion is that miscarriage IS regarded more traumatically than it was 200 years ago before the 19th-century AMA decided that abortion was evil.

Mary Asatruar
Mary Asatruar writes: Abortion is a private matter The decision as to whether to have an abortion or not is a private matter between a woman, her partner, and her medical practitioner.

LNC: There is one person that you didn’t include in your equation, the one without a voice in the matter – the child. Slavery was also once considered a private matter. The slave, like the unborn child, was not considered a person, but rather an entity to be controlled by “it’s” master. We need to be a voice for the powerless and innocent today just as some brave souls did over 150 years ago for slaves.

MA: Furthermore, I notice that this article was written by a man and men have no idea what its like to undergo an unwanted pregnancy, especially the result of a rape.

LNC: What difference do the arguments and logic have if they come from a man or a woman; they are either true or untrue independent of the one delivering them.

MA: No, motherhood does not come naturally and any woman forced to bear a child she does not want will tell you that.

LNC: Motherhood is not easy whether the child was planned or unplanned. However, if you are going to engage in sexual activity with the opposite sex, these are the natural consequences. Have you heard of such a thing as adoption? We have adopted two of our children from a country that forces abortion, so your argument about being “forced to bear a child” is falling on deaf ears. Many in the country of birth of our children would be glad to bear the children that they have conceived. Apart from rape, nobody in this country is forced to engage in reproductive activity (i.e. sexual intercourse).

MA: When men stop talking about what we women should or shouldn't do with our reproductive organs, we will stop discussing what you can or cannot do with yours.

LNC: I don’t really care what you do with your reproductive organs, as long as you are responsible for the life that is produced from the use of those organs. I also resent that you are willing to use men for your sexual pleasure, but want them to shut up when it comes to the care of the life that may result from your engagement in that sexual pleasure.

LNC

Please don't Keepontryon
KOT,

Your evolutionary mindset is showing. I guess to you it is all so pragmatic; well, it didn’t work out this time so scrap it and try again. Be thankful that your parents didn’t get test results back indicating the likelihood of some deformity with you, which might have led them to abort. These tests often come back with false-positives.

You should be thankful that religious people subscribe to the idea that “any fetus that can live must become your burden, no matter what the alternatives.” I have heard of many people who have made significant impact on this world because their parents subscribed to this idea. I don’t think that they would consider their children a burden either. Are you in the habit of walking up to people with special needs children and calling those children “burdens?” I doubt that you do.

You should read the Bible where it tells us that we were made in God’s image and that we are “fearfully and wonderfully made” (Psalm 139:14) No my friend, we are not animals and should not act as such.

LNC

Flaming Liberal Multiculturist
Here are your words, "I can't help but laugh at all the anti-abortion activists who sanctimoniously proclaim that the fetus is a human being at the instant of conception, and to abort it is Murder, but who then casually dismiss the untold millions of unimplanted fetuses who are expelled during menstruation and tossed in the trash or toilet.
Somehow they aren't human??"

Why would you think that anyone would mourn the results of menstruation, a natural act? I believe I interpreted your statement as it should have been interpreted, as a feeble argument accusing those of us who argue against abortion because we regard it as the taking of a child's life of hypocrisy.



bigfootbob
Please don't include me in that collective "we" that don't want to see those seven justices rot in Hell. For the record I never said rot in Hell, I hope for a special place in Hell. Rot is okay too but just don't include me in the "we" that hope for their salvation.

FLSoO
Regardless of one's (misguided) opinions, a developing fetus is ALWAYS human. Genetically, scientifically and in all other ways possible. The DNA of an aborted child proves that it is human.

I thought you were going to take a rest before you hurt yourself.

Reply To Conservative Ron

Your last post indicates that you do realize what I'm talking about. As best as I could understand your first post (to me) you were saying that I was calling menstruation an unnatural act, which was wrong.

SO, if the newly-conceived fetus is instantly imbued with Full Humanity just like you & I here on TH, but you feel justified in ignoring all the dead &/or dying Fully Human Beings (unicellular though they may be) in the menstrual flow of sexually active women because menstruation is a 'natural act', then can we also stop worrying about all the Human Beings who die through all other 'natural acts'? Like earthquakes, hurricanes, floods, fires, etc? For that matter I guess all diseases are 'natural acts', too (unless it's from a genetically engineered bug), so I guess I can ignore all THOSE people, too. I suppose that alot of starvation is caused by man, but then we are part of nature also, are we not? (Get lost, malnourished little babies!!)

Or do you believe that this instantly-imbued Full Humanity of the newly conceived Zygote slips away at some point? Perhaps it waves bye-bye as the zygote passes the uterine wall without implanting? Could we plot the "degree of Humanness" of the Zygote as a function of how inconvenient it would be for you to acknowledge it's humanity, or is there some other independent variable that would do a better job?

I hope you can help me out here, I just have these feeble arguments...

Reply to B-A-B
who writes:
"Regardless of one's (misguided) opinions, a developing fetus is ALWAYS human. Genetically, scientifically and in all other ways possible. The DNA of an aborted child proves that it is human."

I'd reply at greater length, but I'm too busy trying to find a Priest who'll administer last rites to my fingernail clippings. (The DNA test came back human....)

Flaming Liberal Multiculturalist
It is good to realize that you too regard your arguments as feeble. Abortion is not a natural act. The loss of a child that was the result of an abortion should not be compared to the loss of people by acts of God or worse, to some bodily function.

Peppermint
You were so right!

ps: You have a good blog, by the way. I enjoy it very much.

It's All Clear Now
"It is good to realize that you too regard your arguments as feeble."

Then I hope you'll be able to answer them.

"Abortion is not a natural act. The loss of a child that was the result of an abortion should not be compared to the loss of people by acts of God or worse, to some bodily function."

Hmm. Pretty ambiguous, but I guess you're going for choice (1), and well beyond! If they can't be compared then I guess one Aborted fetus is a bigger tragedy than everyone who died in the recent Indian Ocean Tsunami. Thanks for clearing that up!

FLM
Your comments don't make any sense. You say that in order for your unborn child to have human rights, i have to feel remorse if that child dies. This is ridiculous on it's face. If you died before reading the next sentence, I'd feel no remorse whatsoever. This isn't because you're not a valuable human being with human rights. It's because I don't know you. The same thing for all human beings who die through spontaneous abortions. We simply don't know them, so their deaths we do not mourn.

You simply imagine hypocrisy where there is none. While they may be the excuse you're looking for, it's worse than weak thinking.

Flaming Liberal Multiculturist
Your logic is beyond belief. I suppose this is why you assume the positions you do. No, you cannot compare an abortion with a tsunami. One is deliberate, the other is not. The abortion could have been avoided or prevented. The tsunami resulted from a shift in the earth's crust.

mom of a preemie here
There is NEVER any reason for a partial birth abortion. If the child is old enough to require this procedure, it is old enough to be viable. Someone has to explain to me why it's *healthier* for the mother to have her child's brain sucked out of its skull rather than to be delivered and transported to NICU.

Flaming Liberal Multiculturalist
"Your last post indicates that you do realize what I'm talking about."

I don't know if "Conservative Ron" knows what you're talking about, but I certainly don't. I have reasonable doubt as to whether YOU even know what you're talking about.

Call it what it is.
Instead of calling it "partial-birth abortion", why don't we simply call it what it is? Namely, murder during delivery.

On Getting Back to Drew & Ron

The argument that I try to advance seems pretty common-sense to me. Maybe it's too radical to be understood (common sense often is) and that is why you two (& others) take it in all 359 degrees of wrong directions instead of the fairly plain straight line that seems apparent to me.

I'll try again this evening; I DO have to earn a living every now & then...

Flaming Liberal Multiculturalist
You said, "The argument that I try to advance seems pretty common-sense to me."

No offense intended, but I've found that common sense is a foreign language to most liberals.

On Common Sense (No Pun Intended)
Ken:
"No offense intended,"

In light of the following, that's a pretty tall order!

"...but I've found that common sense is a foreign language to most liberals."

Well, common sense doesn't have a completely good reputation after all. Most people are aware of Einstein's description of common sense as "That layer of prejudice laid down in the mind before the age of 18". But I think Thoreau had him beat when he wrote that "The commonest sense of all is the sense of men asleep, which they express by snoring."


Flaming Liberal Multiculturalist
With all due respect, you don't seem overly endowed with common sense yourself. As Jerry Clower used to say, I think you've been educated beyond your intelligence.

FLM
I am not really sure of your logic in this.

1) Your comparison of miscarriages and zygots with abortion has a flaw. The former two involve something which happens outside of the control of the mother while the latter involves actively seeking and premeditating the murder of a living being. The question here is whether we have the right to seek the destruction of the life of something that is innocent of wrong doing. This unborn child is not premeditating or actively seeking the harm of the mother. There is no malice involved. Do we have the right to take the life of an innocent?

2) Your argument that feelings determine the intrinisc value of human life is also flawed. Suppose there is a beggar down the street that everyone dispises including his own family. I go down there and murder him and all the police do is bury him so his rotting carcass doesn't bring disease. Was I justified in murdering him? Does the fact that everyone hated him mean that he wasn't really a human being so that he could be killed?
Suppose there was a family in this plane and the plane goes down in a wilderness and only the child lives. There is no living relatives of the child and no one knows he is living. Does this mean the child is no longer human and can be killed like an animal? There is no one around to mourn his death. According to your reasoning, he must not be human and therefore not entitled to be protected from murder.

To Thoughtful Rob(l?)in & Others
Thoughtful Roblin Writes:
"Your comparison of miscarriages and zygots with abortion has a flaw. The former two involve something which happens outside of the control of the mother while the latter involves actively seeking and premeditating the murder of a living being."

First of all, by "The former two" I assume you mean miscarriage ("zygots"(sic) is not an occurance). And by "murder of a living being" I will assume you mean "living HUMAN being", as all the little chickens and piggies are innocent also, but we slaughter and devour them with a clear conscience.

I'm trying to determine if a newly-concieved just-fertilized egg, a Zygote, IS in fact or can be considered to be a human being. I also examine our society's other beliefs and practices WRTO the fetus to see if they are consistent with the claim that the newly-conceived Zygote IS or should be considered to be a Human Being.

I therefore regard your statement:

"The question here is whether we have the right to seek the destruction of the life of something that is innocent of wrong doing."

As CIRCULAR as it applies to a criticism of my argument. You are assuming as a postulate that the newly-fertilized egg is a living human being and deciding if we are justified in killing it. I'm examing the truth, or at least the reasonableness, of that postulate.

Thoughtful Roblin:
"2) Your argument that feelings determine the intrinisc value of human life is also flawed."

I make so such claim about feelings determining any "intrinsic value".

First of all I have no divine knowledge of any kind, and that's what it would take (I believe) to actually determine "the intrinsic value of human life" or to authoritatively state that the newly-conceived zygote is or is not a human being.

At the other end of the pregnancy process I claim that the newborn baby is a Human Being not because I have any divine knowledge about it; it's simply something that just about everybody agrees on. Since I see nothing supernatural about the actual birth that would suddenly bestow this humanity, I believe that the baby is already a Human Being for some time before it's born.

We are all free to hold personal beliefs and opinions without regard to how logically consistent they are. However, to be good ones our Laws that govern our society need to make sense and be consistent.

If we demand in our Law that all pregnant women behave as if the newly-conceived zygote is a Human Being, but our Law does not recognize that some half of all newly-conceived Zygotes fail to implant and our Law does not demand that we strive to save these human beings or at the very least treat their worldly remains the same way as any other deceased human being, then our laws are inconsistent. Frankly, our laws are then inconsistent and self-servingly hypocritical.

The prospect of laying out this argument statement-by-statement from start to finish makes me exhausted just thinking about it. I'll probably be motivated to do so by some other Article about Abortion. And I'm sure with election season coming on, I won't have to wait long to see such an article on TH (right next to the flag-burning one).

But I do know what I'll call it, thanks to "Conservative Ron" above: "The Feeble Argument"!

FLM
First, to able to demand that we save the zygotes, we have to get the law to recognize them as human too. Next we would have to find a way to save the zygotes; but, we cannot legislate doctors and researchers to find ways to save the zygotes because we do not legilsate them to HAVE to find cures for diabetes, cancer, AIDS, and so forth. There are no laws to do such so it is not not inconsistent for the law not to legislate about saving zygotes.

Second, I have to totally disagree with your comment about the remains. The only reason the law has anything to do with burial at all has to do with public health issues. there are plenty of John and Jane Does out there that do not have proper ceremonies for them and the law does not require them to have such ceremonies. Only that they be buried.
Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.