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Friday, March 16, 2007
Gregory Koukl :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Myth of Moral Neutrality
by Gregory Koukl
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Gen. Peter Pace was vehemently denounced and condemned earlier this week for expressing a personal moral judgment that homosexuality is immoral. The criticisms excoriated Pace for making a value judgment, while implying that the denunciations themselves were morally neutral. In reality, Pace’s critics expressed a moral judgment, too. They declared his comments wrong, not just factually but morally – and their moral outrage was palpable.

Let me make this clear up front: All people regardless of their sexual orientation or other differences should be treated fairly. We all have equal intrinsic value and dignity. But the goal of gay rights advocates isn't so much to gain rights they are being denied as to gain societal approval. Thus the loud denunciations when Pace made a moral judgment. All the while, these advocates claim that that theirs is the neutral moral position. It isn't, and really can't be. But their objection conveys a fundamental assumption of many in our society today that one side of the public debate is "pushing its morality" on society, when in fact that is what the nature of their advocacy accomplishes.

This reflects one of the most entrenched assumptions of moral relativism in our society today: that there is such a thing as morally neutral ground, a place of complete impartiality where no judgments nor any forcing of personal views are allowed. Each of us takes a neutral posture towards the moral convictions of others. This is the essence of tolerance, or so the argument goes.

Moral neutrality, though, is a myth, as the following illustration shows.

Tolerance and Moral Neutrality

One of the alleged virtues of relativism is its emphasis on tolerance. An extremely articulate example of this point of view was written by Faye Wattleton, the former President of Planned Parenthood. The piece is called, "Self-Definition: Morality."

Like most parents, I think that a sense of moral responsibility is one of the greatest gifts I can give my child. But teaching morality doesn't mean imposing my moral values on others. It means sharing wisdom, giving reasons for believing as I do--and then trusting others to think and judge for themselves.

My parents' morals were deeply rooted in religious conviction but tempered by tolerance--the essence of which is respect for other people's views. They taught me that reasonable people may differ on moral issues, and that fundamental respect for others is morality of the highest order.

"I have devoted my career to ensuring a world in which my daughter, Felicia, can inherit that legacy. I hope the tolerance and respect I show her as a parent is reinforced by the work she sees me doing every day: fighting for the right of all individuals to make their own moral decisions about childbearing.

Seventy-five years ago, Margaret Sanger founded Planned Parenthood to liberate individuals from the 'mighty engines of repression.' As she wrote, 'The men and women of America are demanding that...they be allowed to mold their lives, not at the arbitrary command of church or state but as their conscience and judgment may dictate.'

I'm proud to continue that struggle, to defend the rights of all people to their own beliefs. When others try to inflict their views on me, my daughter or anyone else, that's not morality: It's tyranny. It's unfair, and it's un-American.

This is impressively and persuasively written, one of the finest expressions of this view available in the space of five short paragraphs. It sounds so sensible, so reasonable, and so tolerant, but there's a fundamental flaw.

Wattleton's Fundamental Flaw

Faye Wattleton's assessment is based on the notion of neutral ground, a place that implies no moral judgment. Wattleton is not neutral, however, as her own comments demonstrate.

In her article, Wattleton in effect argues that each of us should respect another's point of view. She then implies, however, that any point of view other than this one is immoral, un-American, and tyrannous. If you disagree with Wattleton's position that all points of view are equally valid, then your point of view is not valid. Her argument commits suicide; it self-destructs*.

In fact, Wattleton has her own absolute she seeks to impose on other people: "Fundamental respect for others is morality of the highest order." This is a personal moral position she strives to mandate politically. She writes, "I have devoted my career to ensuring a world in which my daughter, Felicia, can inherit that legacy." What legacy? Her point of view. How does she ensure this? By passing laws. Faye Wattleton has devoted her career to ensuring a world in which her point of view is enforced by law.

I don't object to anyone seeking to use the political process to enforce his or her particular point of view in this way. In our system, everybody gets a voice, and everybody gets a vote. We each get to make our case in the public square, and may the best idea win. Because we each can vote, no one can inflict the majority with his point of view (unless, of course, he's a judge).

What is disturbing in Wattleton's article is her implication she is neutral, unbiased, and tolerant, when she is not. She is entitled to her point of view, but she's not neutral. The only place of true neutrality is silence. Speak up, give your opinion, contend for your view, and you forfeit your claim to neutrality.

As a case in point, in May, 1994, Congress passed a law making it a federal offense to block an abortion clinic**. Pamela Maraldo, then president of Planned Parenthood, commented to the press, "This law goes to show that no one can force their viewpoint on someone else." The self-contradiction of her statement is obvious: All laws force someone's viewpoint.

Moral neutrality seems virtuous, but there's no benefit, only danger. In our culture we don't stop at "sharing wisdom, giving reasons for believing as [we] do--and then trusting others to think and judge for themselves," as Wattleton says, nor should we. This leads to anarchy. Instead we use moral reasoning, public advocacy, and legislation to encourage virtue and discourage dangerous or morally inappropriate behavior.

Faye Wattleton is offering an ethic which, although it sounds fair and tolerant, turns out to be the most bankrupt of all moral systems. It's called moral relativism. It's not even tolerant, as Ms. Wattleton makes clear when she condemns those who disagree with her. It sounds persuasive, but it's also misleading and fallacious.

Moral Values and Public Policy

It’s important to have an informed and civil public dialogue about public policy, and homosexual rights is a delicate subject made more difficult when one side is accused of moral judgment. Both sides are making moral judgments; it’s the nature of the issue. The question we should be discussing is which moral judgment makes the best public policy? It’s not possible to be morally neutral so it would be much more productive if everyone owned up to their moral values.

*I wonder if she takes this approach with her daughter. Does she "inflict" Felicia with moral obligations about bedtimes, homework, drugs, cheating, etc., or is she "tolerant" of Felicia's divergent opinions on these issues?

**The Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act (FACE). Passed in the Senate on May 12, 1994.

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About The Author

Gregory Koukl is founder and president of Stand to Reason, an organization devoted to a thoughtful and engaging defense of classical Christianity in the public square. He is also a radio talk show host and author of Relativism—Feet Firmly Planted in Mid-Air.

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Speaking of idiots and morons
See Above.

Antiteenmommas, Hustler
Thanks for taking the time to write that post. If there were more people like you on these threads the country would definitely be improved.

To save Hustler and all the people like him who are going to say all the predictable, neaderthal comments we have come to expect, I'll save you the time: Here is a summary of right-wing comments from another thread dealing with gays (the comments are separated by commas):

“sexual psychopathology's projects his own deadly, deviate, destructive and degenerate self-loathing upon all of the rest of us, Isn't it a shame that faggots are so heterophobic,
Begin writing essays calling for the cleansing and purification of society via the mass murder of homosexuals, this is a type of perversion that cannot be tolerated by society,”
Keep the faggots away from decent people, homosexuality feels like a hugh vulture, snacthing children's innocence,How about bestiality? How about necrophilia?
Just laugh atthe overall irony of someone who likes to plug other dudes in the keister calling someone else vile, They gay guy wakes up and pulls the butt plug out of his mouth???"
HAHAHA!!! You fukking little fairy. I'd beat you like your father should have. I'd knock you straight. Maybe I'll have my wife kick your queeer a-s, the way to gain momentum for their sodomite movement is to divert attention away from the filthy acts of their habitual perversion
Start lobbying your legislature now, and PUSH BACK the evil sodomites....Protect your children!, Fairies like you need to be put in your place, as for Praising Jesus, if you're a homosexual, praise all you want, he doesn't listen unless you repent and turn from your evil’
You silly demented fairy. The AIDS must be rotting your brain, Go to your cellmate and don't forget the rubber sheet and the gerbils!, Hey, what do you call a bouncer in a gay bar?,
you and your sodomite buddies will not get to indoctrinate Zekaryah, Shemu'el or Dawid...My wife and I homeschool ALL of our twelve children (nine girls, three boys)....guess what? NO LAWS to mandate homeschooled children to hear the filthy, nasty, pathetic, sadistic, rancid, putrid message of your clan of evildoers....so, go back to your "battery operated boyfriend" (phrase in quotations compliments of leftismkiller, you keep flapping your ccum receptacle, Hypocritical faggot, this is a type of perversion that cannot be tolerated by society,” liberals support psychotic, violent ideas,All true Conservatives know how to respect other people.

There. Now maybe people like Hustler can spare us their ignorance.

Just more Jamming from ANTIteenmommas
Whether we all heve the same rights to marry is true or false as a function of context.

I am married to Trisha. One could make the case that not all men have the same right, because I did marry Trish, but they may not--she is already married.

In a different context, all do have the same right, because any man has the same right as any other, to wit: to marry an unmarried adult woman who will agree to marry him, so long as he is not already married.

Yet another context can be couched in the terms "to marry the person they love." In that context (primarily) the charge that homosexuals do not have equal rights is leveled. But no one may carte blanche marry whom they love. Minors are excluded from the list of candidates (unless their parent will consent). Those already married are excluded. And those of the same gender are married.

(Context is determinative.)

It shows to me how strident ANTI... is that he does not appear to see the downright axiomatic point of the commentary. ("Axiomatic" meaning "so obvious that further proof is not required, for those of you in Rio Linda.)

His voice serves to alert me to the apparent reality that he is pushing an agenda, not trying to "win hearts and minds."

Generally, if someone actually has a point to make, they make it. All he did (in my assessment) was insult, hurl invectives, slander and whine. This is known as "jamming." It is a technique initially suggested in the book "after the Ball." Anytime someone posits an opinion that is counter to your agenda, you slander them (eg, "homophobe," "heterosexist") and shout them down.

Not a technique requiring a lot of skil nor thought.

More Jamming from Dog
Say Dog,

Care to provide the link to the site you are quoting from? (I suspect it is so fringe, you are actually avoiding that. What is it, the official site of the Ku Klux Klan?)

Care to comment on the central theme of the commentary that the issue of neutrality is a myth? (Along with the vaunted "tolerance?")

Do you have anything to contribute to or against the actual theme of the commentary?

Mr. Koukl
"In our culture we don't stop at "sharing wisdom, giving reasons for believing as [we] do--and then trusting others to think and judge for themselves," as Wattleton says, nor should we. This leads to anarchy."

Are you freekin' kidding me? Sharing wisdom, giving reasons, and trusting others to judge for themselves. Sounds like America to me.

Your using legislation to "encourage virtue and discourage morally inappropriate behavior" is presumptuous, self-righteous, unwelcome and unnecessary.

Brian Wren
Jam this.

Changing the context itself is our goal.
Gays and lesbians in this country would hail victory if marriage law were changed to be legal for "any 2 consenting unmarried adults". We want nothing more.

Wouldn't that provide the necessary Freedoms of "L, L, and POH" our Constitution calls for?

Anti, Dog
Where is the new information not available 10 years ago that now causes the call for special treatment of homosexuals?

Simply invoking "I have a right to X!, They have a right to X!" doesn't make it so. It doesn't matter matter what position Tutu holds.





Will Civil Unions end the 'War' on Gay -
Marriage?

The following is an excerpt from an article titled: "It took a Civil War to end Slavery - will Civil Unions end the 'War' on Gay Marriage?"

The article may be found at: http://voice.townhall.com/g/331f0d34-b56e-4a2e-9c29-64ca7eaaa12a

------------excerpt begins------------
Disclosure#1: I am a happily married, heterosexual, conservative male. Socially, I don't have a personal stake in this debate. What is the significane of this disclosure? In our polarized country, it is assumed that only Gays or liberals care about Gay Marriage and that all straight conservatives oppose it. However, conservatives too believe that there has to be fairness and equality in our policies.

Disclosure#2: Due to my political atheism, I choose to ignore the religious viewpoint that opposes gay marriage or any other issue. If a conservative (or libertarian) position can't be defended based on fundamental rights, the constitution or objective law, then it is lost anyway! As I have mentioned before, that does not constitute an anti-Religious sentiment. What it does mean is that I accept the reality that issues cannot be decided in modern America on a religious basis alone.

I find that the secular, conservative viewpoint opposing Gay Marriage is weak. Most of the points that are raised by secular conservatives can also apply to heterosexual marriage as well. Therefore, conservatives who oppose Gay Marriage typically fall back on the argument from tradition or religion.
------------excerpt ends------------

no to same-sex marriage
I oppose homosexual marriage because granting such unions would be granting approval of homosexuality. If society --through the ballot box-- wants to grant that approval, so be it. But I'd vote against it. Homosexuality is unhealthy and unnatural. To claim a right to something unhealthy and unnatural seems ridiculous.





zzx375, drew
I basically feel that answering your question is a waste of time because nobody really ever wants another point of view on this blog, but here it is anyway:

Gays don't wan't special rights - they want the same rights that straights have, which is to marry the person of their choice and benefit from the legal recognitions that everyone else has.

Drew- I never know how to respond to someone who says what you did. Your ideas about homosexuality are so fixated on the sexuality that you will never have another point of view.

I just said on another thread that Americans have to be the most immature and childish people in the world when it comes to sex and love. It is such a conflict of unrealistic religious romance and wretched knee-jerk disgust that it seems we can never just be human.

We should all grow up and make a society where there is room for everyone, so we can focus on some of the really important things.

Just Don't Get It
I will never understand how homosexuals are asking for "civil rights" when they are not and cannot be a protected class. The reason for this is because they are not identified by an immutable characteristic, but by a behavior. The one and only thing that defines a homosexual is their sexual behavior.

The homosexual might try to tell you that their behavior is not what defines them. They will say it is a committed, loving relationship. They will tell you they live with a member of the same sex, share the bills, ride their bikes together, go bowling, cook meals, enjoy spending time with one another on vacations and what not. But so far they have only described what any two heterosexual roommates might do.

Once you add the intimacy part you have a behavioral action. And it is one that can change based on preference. There are plenty of ex-gays now straight. There are plenty of ex-straights that are now gay. It's not like a skin color, where you can't change it and someone can choose to discriminate based on it. It is an action where, if someone looked at you they could not tell if you were gay or not. How do you protect that? It makes no sense.


S-P's: No Moral Judgments (except ours)
Greg Koukl, in his usual knowledgeable and factual way, expels the Myth of Moral Neutrality in this column.

As Bill O'Reilly pointed out recently on his radio program, the S-P (secular-progressive) mentality is one that "doesn't want anyone to make any moral judgments on behavior." O'Reilly also pointed out that the moral judgments being made by the religious (mostly, conservative Christian) community are often those with which the S-P's want to eliminate from the public debate.

Koukl adeptly points out that the "secular progressive" counter-arguments ARE making THEIR OWN, SPECIFIC KIND of "moral" judgments upon the views of those with which the S-P's disagree.

Keep this in mind the next time someone calls you "homophobic."

Christinewjc
Christians call homosexuality a chosen, deviant behavior that they have a moral obligation to dispute and discourage, based on their faith.

Gays and lesbians and their allies claim that it's not a choice, it's their life: natural, loving, at the very core of their existence.

Likewise, Christians claim that their faith, and everything that goes with it, is not a choice, it's their life: natural, loving, and at the core of their existence.

It seems to me, though, that the Christian faith, the very same that causes the prideful intolerance of so many posters on Townhall, IS a choice, and it's supposed monopoly on "Truth" IS deviant behavior, and as decent, caring Americans we have a moral obligation to dispute and discourage the intolerance, fear, and ignorance that it breeds.

I don't think Christians are dumb, just full of fear and misinformed.

Dog, and ANTI,
Dog,

The structure of your argument is: "I have examples of bad language and insults by 'the right' therefore the opinions of the right are not valid."

Is that really the best argument with which you can come up? Why not comment on the column?

ANTIteenmommas,

Your logic is a little bit convoluted, but let me try to respond to some of your points. You say:

"At no point does it make logical sense to limit a person based on how and whom they like to screw, unless we assume that the military is a giant hetero orgy and not an organization meant to defend our nation."

In fact, it is the gay community which is a big orgy. The military believes that they have legitimate reasons for keeping people screwing each other in combat zones. As you may possibly be aware, the same rule applies to heterosexual relations. The reason which has escaped you has to do with unit cohesion, something which the military considers to be fairly important. If a gay person wants to contribute to their country, there are many ways to do it.

And actually, people with low IQ's ARE turned away, so I don't see your point there.

You also say, "Neutrality is easy if you're not a moron. Live and let live as long as you do no harm to others."

I suppose it's also easy if you don't understand the logic presented in the column. Huslter's point was that your main argument was directly addressed by the column.

You didn't respond to the column, but merely espoused the same views as Faye Wattleton.

sorry, missing word
5th paragraph from the bottom should read that the military has reasons to keep people screwing each other FROM combat zones.

What Greg said
Did any of you notice that Mr. Koukl did not state a position on the issue of homosexuality? Obviously you did not.

The point of the article is that while General Pace was making a moral judgement, so are his critics. So are you. (and, yes, I know, so am I.)

Greg is not saying that making judgements is wrong. He is saying that making judgements while claiming that you are not is wrong. And making a judgement to criticize General Pace for making a judgement is hypocritical.

On The Myth of Morality
To discuss this topic it is necessary to define "values" I define my values as: beyond this point I go no further. There in are my values. The question: Is homosexual behavior immoral behavior? From the standpoint of my values, the answer is yes. I have viewed that type of activity on the Internet. I think it is ridiculous, and disgusting. Yes, it is true on the Internet we term it pornography. But, whether it is on the Internet or in the privacy of the bedroom, I consider it immoral behavior.

Therefore, Greg is right when he says there is no such thing as "moral neutrality."

It is true the Constitution grants us as one of our rights the right of privacy within the home. The fact that two people engage in a homosexual act within the home does not make the act moral. But, it is legally acceptable from within the home. Conducted in a public park or public theater or anywhere else where it can be viewed by others is neither legal nor moral, and therefore can be considered as immoral behavior.

Now, if we view it from the standpoint of the Holy Bible, nothing is said about it in the Ten Commandments. There is not one word in the Bible, directly from God, nor from Christ, that condemns this behavior. In the Old Testament it is man who speaks and says, "...and God gave them up for their filthy ways." In the New Testament, there is not one word from Christ condemning this behavior.

This should give the Church food for thought. In point of fact, Christ speaks of "sin" and says "...and let him who has not sinned cast the first stone."

Falling for The Lie
Something for jeffrob, Bob, and other to consider:

People falling for deceptive philosophy: homosexuality



The idea that "Jesus never said anything against homosexuality" just shows the ignorance of people who don't know Christ and haven't read and studied the Bible. If they had, then they would realize how ridiculous that statement truly is.


Christine


*******

Jesus never said anything about homosexuality.

SO...it must be okay, right?

Talking points from Mission America

Consider these facts:

He also never said anything about rape, incest or domestic violence. Are those things okay, too?


There are many teachings and deeds of Christ that are not included in the Gospel accounts, as John writes in John 21:25.


Christ did say that God created people “in the beginning” as male and female, and that marriage is the union of one man and one woman joined together as “one flesh.” (Matthew 19:4-6 and Mark 10:6-9) Nothing is said about any other type of union.


When He discussed sexual morality, Christ had a very high standard, clearly affirming long-standing Jewish law. He told the woman caught in adultery to “Go and sin no more.” (John 8:11) He warned people not only that the act of adultery was wrong, but even adulterous thoughts. (Matthew 5:28) And he shamed the woman at the well (John 4:18) by pointing out to her that he knew she was living with a man who was not her husband.


Christ used the destruction of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah as an example of God’s wrath ( Matthew 10:15, Mark 6:11,Luke 10:12, and Luke 17:29). Throughout the Old Testament, prophets clearly described these cities as being notorious for the practice of homosexuality. (Genesis 18:20, Genesis 19:4-5, Isaiah 3:9, Jeremiah 23:14, Ezekiel 16:46-59). Jesus certainly knew that this was how the comparison would be understood.


Christ was God incarnate (in the flesh) here on earth. He was the long-expected Messiah, which was revealed in Matthew 16:13- 20, Matthew 17:5-9, Mark 8:27-30, Luke 4:16-30, Luke 9: 18-21,John 4:25-26, John 8:57-59 and elsewhere. As one with God, He was present from the beginning (John 1: 1-13; Colossians 1:15-17; Ephesians 3:9 and elsewhere). So, Jesus was part of the Godhead as the laws were handed down through Moses to Israel and eventually to the whole world. This Old Testament law clearly prohibited homosexuality (Genesis 19, Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13; Deuteronomy 23:18 and elsewhere). The apostles understood this also, as shown by Paul’s writing in Romans 1:24-27, Peter’s in 2 Peter 2:4-22, and John’s in Revelation 22:15.
So--the apostles, who were taught by Christ, clearly understood that homosexuality was a sin as it has always been. When people say, “Jesus said nothing about homosexuality,” they reveal that they really haven’t understood Scripture, or Who Christ is. Maybe some of these points can help them toward a clearer understanding.


Post ID: 709 Posted by: pool6x, 2005-09-17 02:13:00

This was an excellent reply based upon the truth of the Bible. Christ is God, the Holy Spirit (God also) inspired the Bible's writing, So when God declared homosexuality an abomination in the Old Testament, it was in fact Christ (God) who was the one declaring that. So, Christ did say a lot about homosexuality...everytime God says it in the Bible, Christ (part of the Godhead) is dittoing it.



Post ID: 716 Posted by: nitsuard, 2005-09-19 01:44:26

Excellent indeed! But I had a bad link to the original article and hope to read it b4 continuing my comments except to say that John 1 explains that Christ was GOD in the flesh and was the Creator who made everything, including every word written by man to be included in the Bible.
__________________
Christine

See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. Colossians 2:8

The eyes of the Lord move to and fro throughout the earth to show Himself strong to those whose hearts are fully committed to Him. 2 Chronicles 16:9


Bob
Cherry picking? I see you did not mention Apostle Paul.

This is the heart of the argument.
This is what we need to get across to people, that regardless of the topic, no one is neutral. We all are coming from a viewpoint and think that our viewpoint is correct and that of others is wrong.

You've laid this out very clearly here. I have not yet read the comments, but I hope people will grasp what you're saying and not go off on tangents or get all hysterical, as so often happens.

a-a-a-ar-g-h
I just can't stomach another bible-quoting, sanctimonious, finger-wagging, moralistic zealot. I think this blog only represents a small minority of racists, homophobes, obssessed bible-maniacs who are never able to see up or down, backwards or forwards.

There is a famous psychological esperiment where cockroachs are placed between two pieces of tissue paper so that all they see in one wall of color - they become hypnotized, losing all sense oor memory of the world that exists outside of their tissue prison.

You're not even very smart.

I started to read the comments...
And as I so often see, people are not able to have a rational discussion without immediately resulting to name calling and profanity.

It truly is sad.

Great article
The point of view that states any view of truth that is absolute is abusive or morally wrong is "itself" a point of view that is absolute. The inability or unwillingness of the left to acknowledge this point leads to a virtual end to all discussion. How can one even have an interaction when this line of illogic is present. This is closely related to post modernism- which states that no truth really does exist except in the mind of the individual. I know it's different in actuality, however the people who lambast General Pace- usually have this viewpoint as well. When truth is viewed in this light- it loses all meaning. Instead of denouncing Pace for having a viewpoint on the issue which he believes to be true- it would be better to argue that the alternative view is true and leave it at that. Just say that homosexual behavior is not immoral. That would leave it to each one to determine the merits of the two sides. This is the way "I used to" argue with liberal friends. Now the argument is based upon my intolerance and not on my view. A moral judgment is made on me as a human being instead of the truth or lack thereof of my argument. It's an easy way to stifle discussion and shut people up. A unique and frequently unused way to avoid this logjam is to state what the "presuppositions" are in any discussion before procceding. Every interaction has them and these need to be acknowledged before any meaningful discussion can occur. Examples would be "truth exists" beyond my own mind or opinions, that everyone is entitled to be wrong and or express their own point of view, and that one is entitled to their dignity despite their viewpoint. This to me is tolerance. Tolerance is not agreeing to not have a viewpoint, it's having a viewpoint and being willing to tolerate another having a differing view.

Dog -
Do you consider yourself a tolerant person? If so, why is it that people such as yourself cannot have a rational discussion without immediately resorting to name calling, simply because people have a different take on an issue than you do?

(Usually I don't even get in on threads like this because it gets so ugly, so fast. And no one is listening anymore, just trading insults back and forth.)

But it gets tiring when you see this type of thing over and over, and so I had to speak up. I'm always willing to discuss an issue. But swearing and name calling doesn't get anyone anywhere, and I refuse to be a part of it.

Mo
I agree, it's sad to see so much vituperation and name-calling.

This series of comments certainly does prove Koukl's point, though. No moral neutrality here, folks. Nothing to see. Move along.

servant, don't hold out too much
hope that this thread will actually discuss Koukl's point; it will (already has) devolve into a he said/she said argument about homosexuality.

Moe
Because people like Dog lack a humor gene, which is also the gene that controls decency. Thus they are consigned to live a dreary dull angry life hating everyone not like themselves.

Diomedes
what exactly is humorous about this which dog is missing? Indulge me, by all means.

It was inevitable.
An article on moral neutrality morphed into a discussion of homosexuals. It does seem the they keep pushing the boundaries of any limits imposed on them by resorting to all manner of tortured logic, ethics and morality. Anything to have their way.

As CatFish correctly points out, the only defining attribute of homosexuals as a group is a behavior. Now I’m talking about the intimate behavior, not the caricatured, swishy queen of movie fame. Homosexuals claim this behavior is predetermined. In as much as we know of no genetic or anatomic basis for this predetermined behavior, we must assume it is psychological.

A good many individuals are compelled to manifest behaviors that the law does not allow, such as; kleptomania, bestiality, voyeurism, pedophilia, necrophilia etc, etc. Is homosexuality more like Tourette’s syndrome, which is known to have an, as yet unspecified, organic origin, but is a disorder with unpopular, yet understandable and forgivable, symptoms? Do we need special rights for Tourette’s patients, or other OCDs?

Here’s a clue: Homosexuality is observed in the animal kingdom, and it too is a sterile coupling. However, animals do not make a big deal about promoting or attacking it. It seems this aberration of the mating drive is simply self deleting, and its re-occurrence is left to chance. That being the case, why do human homosexuals feel the need to have a parade thrown in their honor? They only want to be treated like the rest of the pack. Sure;)

All claims of moral neutrality are self deluded, or outright lies.

Cynewulf
Koukl's point is simple. Special interest groups, homosexuals in particular, have the temerity to take on the mantle of moral neutrality and brazenly parading around in it as if they are the only one it fits. This is so transparent that Koukl wasted his time even trying to discuss it.

Rowena
"That being the case, why do human homosexuals feel the need to have a parade thrown in their honor? They only want to be treated like the rest of the pack. Sure;)"


huh? Maybe they got tired of religious whackos pushing to have them thrown in jail (which was still possible until just three or four years ago), denied right of inheritance when their partnets die (Virginia for one refuses to recognize wills, power of attorney or adoption documents which in any way involve a gay person...so much for equality under the law ;) Maybe they got tired of being viciously murdered, and the defendants claiming it was "gay panic"...or that they thought the Bible told them it was right...



Maybe they just got tired of having "straight America" get up in THEIR business all the time with laws, restrictions, firing from jobs and hosility.

Rabid dog

Isn't it amazing what someone will say when he KNOWS what he is doing is morally wrong and what he will say to try to convince others that what he believes is O.K?

I like you, dog. You remind me of when I was young and stupid.

St Paddy's Day...
Before the hostilities resume, I will take this moment to wish you all a happy and safe St Patricks Day.

A toast...

Some Guiness was spilled on the barroom floor
when the pub closed down for the night.
A wee gray mouse came out of his hole
and crept through the pale moonlight.
He sipped at the filthy brew on the floor
and back on his haunches he sat.
And all you could hear for the rest of the night, was:
"Bring on the Godd**ned cat!!!"



Ceud Mile Failte! Erin Go Bragh!
All the best from AnneMarie, AKA the celtic-Dragon

Good post Christine
I linked to this forum through standtoreason.org....REASON!, got it? How then do I find myself amongst the same old intellectually barren, idiot-friendly discussion forums that can be found anywhere in the blogosphere? Love the site, hats off to Koukl and Co. Too bad technology as yet is unable to discern asininity, and direct users to appropriate discussion suited for them in particular.

Reason without God is morally useless
Moral relativism is a hard concept to live by. The rules change so frequently. Must be a lot of truth to the fact that moral absolutes do exist.
It brings into question from where moral authority originally came from; does it not?
Who is the ultimate determiner of moral authority? What (or Whom) does a person use as his/her arbitor of such authority?

People are imperfect, finite, and can (and do) disappoint us in a myriad of ways. How can we appoint one of "us" to be the truthful arbitor for this subject...or any subject for that matter?

One person at a site that disagrees with my Talkwisdom blogsite tried to answer that question. The answer was almost there...except for one huge error.

He said, "as a secular humanist I can assure you there is only one moral absolute I need to follow and that is to put fairness first, to follow the golden rule."

He went on to say:

"it should be painfully obvious where moral authority comes from and it isn't a supernatural source. Moral authority comes from an agreement of cooperation between people - it is entirely a human construct. With no agreement there is no moral authority."

Well THAT'S certainly dangerous. The Nazis had such an 'agreement of cooperation between people'; were an 'entirely humanistic construct' and 6 million Jews were viciously tortured and horribly executed during one of the greatest tragedies of the 20th century...the Holocaust.

He was correct when he said, "With no agreement there is no moral authority." However, he leaves out the One with whom we need to agree with in order to combat evil when it rears its ugly head and not let man's sin and evil behavior interfere with the moral good.

OK. We all know the golden rule, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Well, one problem with that as the only basis in moral judgment is what if a person happens to think that it's perfectly OK to torture babies for fun (Greg Koukl's line) and also enjoys being tortured himself/herself? Whose to say that it is wrong? The golden rule is not a sufficient answer.

There must be more to it than that.

Where can the line between good and evil be drawn?

Who decides?

Why?

The ultimate question(s) still remain.

"From where, and Whom does absolute moral authority come from?"

"From where, and Whom, does all authority come from?"

How one answers such questions determines how we will live in this world and where each of us will end up in eternity.

The current culture war (as typically seen within this thread today) displays the reality (and consquences) of such polar opposites in worldview.

One side (secular humanists) wants to demonize Christian people of faith and label the greatest Book in the world as "hate speech."

The other side knows the Person of Jesus Christ and recognizes Him for who he is...as the moral authority in their lives.

Jesus said, "Your Word is truth" to God the Father concerning the authority of the Bible. Christians recognize the Bible as God's Word to all mankind. It was written by human authors, under the supernatural guidance of the Holy Spirit. It is the supreme source of truth for Christian beliefs and living. Because it is inspired by God, it is truth without any mixture of error.

2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:20, 21; 2 Timothy 1:13; Psalms 12:6; 119:105, 160; Proverbs 30:5

Keeping that in mind, let's examine what Greg Koukl says.

Arguing that moral law is subject to change at your (or, more generally, man's) "relativistic" will is not reasonable.

Greg Koukl describes moral relativism as something that does not even qualify as an ethical system. This can be proven in a couple of ways. He mentions them in his book that he co-authored with Francis Beckwith, "Relativism: Feet Firmly Planted in Mid-Air."

Here are the excerpts:



Quote:
What's the difference between a relativist and a person who admits she has no morality at all? There seems to be none.

How does a relativist make a moral decision? He decides for himself whatever he thinks is best. How does someone with no morality know how to act? She decides for herself whatever she thinks is best.

Even those people with no scruples whatsoever can be said to have "their own" morality. This illustrates the problem precisely. How can we make sense of an alleged morality that functions the same as not having any morality at all? If a thing cannot be distinguished from its opposite, then the distinction between the two is meaningless.

Thus the first reason relativism does not qualify as an ethical viewpoint is that the "morality" of relativism in no different than having no morality at all.

Another way to assess the validity of a moral system is to see what kind of person it produces. Given a particular standard of morality, the person who is most moral with the one who practices the specific system's key moral rule consistently.

To assess the value of the moral rule, Love your neighbor as yourself, for example, look at the principle in action. When this ethic is practiced consistently, it produces someone like Mother Teresa, who was thoroughly selfless and always gave to others. The moral system is validated by the kind of moral hero that results.

The consistent practice of the morality of nonviolent passive resistance results in a Mahatma Gandhi. The moral principle requiring perfect obedience to the Father in heaven found its most sublime expression in Jesus of Nazareth. In each case, the quality of the moral hero-the one who most closely lives the ideal- indicates that quality of the moral system.

What kind of moral champion does relativism produce? What is the best that relativism has to offer? What do we call those who most thoroughly apply the principles of relativism, caring nothing for others' ideas of right or wrong, those who are unmoved by others' notions of ethical standards and instead consistently follow the beat of their own moral drum?

In our society, we have a name for these people; they are a homicide detective's worst nightmare. The quintessential relativist is a sociopath, one with no conscience. This is what relativism produces.

Something is terribly wrong with an alleged moral point of view that produces a sociopath as its brightest star. This is another reason relativism does not qualify as an ethical viewpoint.

Relativism does not stand in any great moral tradition. Rather, it has been universally rejected by all. The supreme moral teachers of all time - Moses, Jesus, the apostle Paul, Buddha, Aristotle, Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr. - have all condemned this view.

Relativism simply is not a moral point of view. Its "morality" is no different than having no morality at all, its moral hero is a sociopath, and it has been opposed by every moral tradition. Those who are relativists have no morality.

Some people will object to this characterization because they wish to keep the label "moral," regardless of their ethics. "How dare you say I have no morality!" they protest. "I have a morality. I do whatever I please. That's my morality."

That's our point. Those who are relativists do whatever they want, and doing whatever one wants is not morality. Morality is doing what's right, not necessarily what's pleasant.

Morality, therefore, cannot be "neutral" when faced with the reality of the existence of moral absolutes. The Author of moral absolutes is God. This gets us to the crux of the matter - reason without God is morally useless.







Christinewjc
And how are you qualified to speak for God rewarding moral truth? Are you gifted with some insight we lack? Does God speak to you in a flawless and fundamental way that we cannot particpate in? I read the same Bible you do in all likelihood (mine is NIV in point of fact), but I would never claim to have a handle on moral absolutes. The people who do, make really good inquisitors, or mullahs, or suicide bombers. When you KNOW that YOU are RIGHT, and that THEY ARE WRONG...and that God has empowered you to make judgements regarding right and wrong, then the world becomes a very scary place for everybody else. After all, you can do what you want, because God is on your side.

Celtic Dragon
The point of the quoted sentence was that what started out as wanting sameness has changed in to wanting "moreness." And, this is inevitably pursued under the mantle of that moral neutrality and "let's all get along."

As to the rest of your comments, I fail to see what homosexual marriage can achieve on the material questions that you mention that civil contracts cannot. The law is not just. It is just the law. Heterosexuals also suffer injustices in many aspects of family law, so homosexuals don't even have a monopoly on victimhood. I wonder if that isn't what it's about: The need for a sense of vindication and validation of a minority lifestyle. Certainly, almost every homosexual I have known was a tortured soul.

I'll conclude by saying that if two individuals wish to live as life partners (or even neighbors), in love as well as finance, their financial and health arrangements, if legal, are no-one's business but their's, and should not be negated by government. That said, "marriage" is still between a man and a woman if the law says so.

BTW, would YOU trade your mother for a second father, or your father for a second mother?

The rational side of earth to celtic...
celtic dragon said, "And how are you qualified to speak for God 'rewarding' moral truth?"

Now there's a Freudian slip if I ever saw one!

Ummm...earth to celtic?

It's not 'my moral absolutes' that are being discussed. It's those as revealed by God through His Word.

Keep reading your Bible. Better yet, get a Bible study teacher. Soon you may discover such things as exegesis, Sola Scriptura, and Scripture interprets Scripture which might clear up your confusion "regarding" the truth about moral absolutes.

And...grow up. The idiotic comparison of "suicide bombers," "mullahs," and people of genuine Christian faith is so Rosie O'Dimwit and so typical of liberal left loonie dafts...you certainly don't want to go through life associated with them.

Celtic-dragon
I wonder if you have as little handle on moral absolutes as you suggest. I doubt that you'd have to agonize over whether murdering an old lady for her purse is morally bad. Even if she was a mean-spirited person and scared small children, would you really have to ponder long and deeply, and would you be unable to declare her murder an absolutely wrong act, from a moral perspective?

A key weakness of the argument that moral absolutes cause Inquisitions is that we all run around with moral absolutes in our heads, and yet Inquisitions are rare enough that they make headlines, and are examples of one in their field.

There's never anyone who has truly avoided harboring moral absolutes. Those who claim they have are merely objecting to absolutes that they disagree with.

Hey Benjy
Thanks for the encouragement Benjy. Do you post on the Stand to Reason blog? Took a visit over there. So much new stuff since I was there last. It's been a while. I'm a busy blogger these days!

Christine

dragon
weisignorant.com...check it out

Christine
like to talk with you a little more, I'll try to find your blog if I can...we all need encouragement, especially in the muddy waters of postmodern relativism.

rowena
"BTW, would YOU trade your mother for a second father, or your father for a second mother?"

I'm not on regular speaking terms with much of my family.

So What Else Is New?
The fact that there is no moral neutrality on almost any matter one would care to discuss has been discussed in perhaps a literal one thousand books and articles over the past 25 years.

Surely Koukl is not just now figuring this out.

dyerje
*** wonder if you have as little handle on moral absolutes as you suggest. I doubt that you'd have to agonize over whether murdering an old lady for her purse is morally bad. Even if she was a mean-spirited person and scared small children, would you really have to ponder long and deeply, and would you be unable to declare her murder an absolutely wrong act, from a moral perspective?

A key weakness of the argument that moral absolutes cause Inquisitions is that we all run around with moral absolutes in our heads, and yet Inquisitions are rare enough that they make headlines, and are examples of one in their field.

There's never anyone who has truly avoided harboring moral absolutes. Those who claim they have are merely objecting to absolutes that they disagree with.***


Murdering an old lady...for her purse, yet. Notice the use of the term "murder" (already a judgement in law) as well as the motive, which is outright theft. Both are actions which demonstrably harm another, so they would fall into the "usually evil" catagory. Under what circumstances would it not be "evil" to kill an old lady...or at least not quite as evil?

We killed plenty of old ladies when we and the Brits bombed Germany. Check out some of the things that Air Marshall "Bomber" Harris did with Bomber Command when he hit Hamburg and Dresden. Was that evil? Maybe. Was it evil when we bombed Scweinfurt and the ball bearing factories, and killed old women by mistake? Probably not. It was unfortunate, but not deliberate.

Killing is not an absolute evil. Motive and circumstance work into it. Only God knows the complete answer, and I do not presume to answer for Him.

Gregory Koukl
Great article! You did a fantastic job of exposing one of the most ludicrous assertions coming from the left ...that being the 'virtue of moral relativism'.

Your well reasoned arguments against the concept of 'moral relativism' are just one more example why the loony left has to resort to name calling and character assassinations when confronted by opposing arguments to their world view.

Their highest ideals of tolerance and moral relativism can not even hold up to the scrutiny of their own proclaimed beliefs.

Christinewjc
"Now there's a Freudian slip if I ever saw one!"

Huh? How so?

"Ummm...earth to celtic?

It's not 'my moral absolutes' that are being discussed. It's those as revealed by God through His Word."

Which may or may not actually true. More to the point, we are discussing how YOU interpret those revealed 'truths',, and how you apply that to others.


"Keep reading your Bible. Better yet, get a Bible study teacher. Soon you may discover such things as exegesis, Sola Scriptura, and Scripture interprets Scripture which might clear up your confusion "regarding" the truth about moral absolutes. "

Since I do ive on earth, I do not buy "Sola Scripture", because I think it is imperative to use our own experiences to form opinions. If you want to use Scripture alone, you can justfy burning witches and executing rape victems who didn't scream loud enough. Silly at best in this day and age. We don't live in a bronze age desert culture, and our understanding of how humans can live together and what laws are just has changed rather dramatically. So much the better. As for Scripture interprets Scripture...okaaaayyy. Do you use an empirical evidence at all? I prefer not to base my faith on self reinforcing circular arguments.


"And...grow up. The idiotic comparison of "suicide bombers," "mullahs," and people of genuine Christian faith is so Rosie O'Dimwit and so typical of liberal left loonie dafts...you certainly don't want to go through life associated with them."


I'll be sure to grow up after my son has left for college, thank you. You ridicule my comparison, but present no cogent argument as to why utter moral certainty is dangerous. Please go back and read about the Reformation, and then study Locke, Hobbes and Hamilton. Then get back to me and try again. Thank's for trying, though.

ANTIteenmommas
Good luck arging facts, because faith and beliefs trump empiricism every day. I am a transgendered woman who has made some good friends here, yet I find it difficult to do more then just give a voice to GLBT people and show that we are not "liberal, godless, monsters". Best wishes to you and your partner, and know that we will win real equality.

God Bless
AnneMarie

ps. you can click on "celtic dragon" and go directly to my blog. Hope to see you there.

Christine
I too thought you did a great job of explaining the connecting of biblical truths (both Old & New Testament) to the Trinity ....and the need to take the bible in it's entirety for a complete understanding of God's will or as some would say, his blue-print for our lives.

Your post did a great job of refuting the argument/excuse that 'Jesus never said anything condemning homosexuality'

There is an underlying reason IMO that the God of the bible makes a strong condemnation (calling it an abomination) of homosexuality.

All throughout the bible, but especially the New Testament God/Jesus uses symbolism and parables to explain and teach the truths of the Bible and Gods desires for fellowship and communion with his creation. The 'Word' of God describes his desires for a relationship with his creation through the sacrifice of his only begotten son and his atonement brought about through our acceptance of Christ for the remission of sins and restored spiritual fellowship with the Father.

The Bible refers to the 'body of believers' (those that have accepted Christ or Christians) as the 'Bride' of Christ. It talks about Christ's return to claim 'his bride' and a great 'wedding feast' that will ensue. It goes on to instruct us in the relationships we are to have with each other and in particular as husbands and wives. These instructions are an earthly example of and analogous to the spiritual relationship he desires to have with us. It places roles of obedience and responsibilities for both men and women in marital relationships. It instructs wives to be submissive to the husband's will as the 'body of believers' should be submissive to the will of the father, through Christ. Husbands are admonished to love their wife as Christ loves his 'church'....even to the point of laying down ones life for them.

If you believe in an omnipotent God, it's hard to explain why he would choose this analogy between earthy marriages and his planned spiritual relationship with us....other than his having a greater design and plan for us from the beginning of time. Gods desire and design for a family composed of a husband and wife is to go forth and multiply...or bare earthly fruit (children)...just as it is his desire for our spiritual relationship with him, to bear spiritual fruit (by showing others his great love for us and bringing them into the greater spiritual family as God's children).

In other words, the institution or concept of marriage being between one man and one woman was not simply a matter of accident or coincidence ...that needed a couple thousand years to reach an age of enlightenment that would endorse marriages between same sex individuals. An all knowing and all wise God had a master plan for our earthly and heavenly good. He wouldn't have kept that 'good' from us throughout the age of man for all this time...up until now....if he meant for us to have homosexual relations all along.

Are we to believe that God likes to play practical jokes on his creation for a few thousand years...or maybe he just wasn't smart enough or really all that 'all knowing' after all? Is God the Arthur of confusion?.... Do we have a greater capacity to give 'good' things to our own earthly children than God gives to us...his children? Would a God of love withhold some good thing from his creation, for such a long time, if it were not for a reason....like our greater good? Wouldn't an all knowing God have let us know from the beginning... if he meant homosexual relationships to be equivalent to heterosexual ones. Wouldn't he have made 'fruit baring' (having children) a part of homosexual relations as well...in keeping with his admonishments to bare 'spiritual fruit.

I know some will take offense to what I have posted here but I hope that some will examine their beliefs and come to a better understanding of the God of the Bible with the thoughts I have shared.


Celtic-Dragon...
...thanks for the poem,Annemarie.You made my day!I plan on challenging the cat tonight.

Still no new information dog?
"Gays don't wan't special rights - they want the same rights that straights have, which is to marry the person of their choice and benefit from the legal recognitions that everyone else has." is not new information, it is your assertion, your "They/I have a right!"

Again, what is the new information not available 10 years ago that now says they should get preferential treatment?



Isn't this a state issue to decide?
Regardless of the stance anyone takes, I don't see anywhere in the Constitution where it says the Federal government should be involved in this issue. If not, the decision is to be left to the states and the people, respectively. Why aren't we doing this?

I have to admit that I am not fully versed in the issue of gay marriage. Maybe one of you could fill me in. Off the top, here are my questions.

1. Are gays asking for preferential treatment, or is it equal treatment, under the law? If it is preferential, tell me how how please?

2. I have heard the argument on this board that they can sleep with whomever they choose, just don't try to legislate it.

Made some sense to me. I have a couple of questions however. Aren't "married" couples currently taxed differently? How about inheritance? Aren't the taxes different? If so, should the government be able to tax us differently, based upon whom we choose to leave our money? Isn't that OUR personal business?




Abuse Children
It is no coincidence that the abuse of children is correlated with Gay rights and their obsession with Porn.

If you read Jeffery Satinover's book "Homosexuality and the politics of Truth" you will find a wake up call to this sordid sex cult that call themselves Gay.

They march in parades and support Man Boy love advocates (NAMBLA)which is all about child abuse. They lobby congress to reduce the age of consent so they can attack kids legally.

This promiscuous sex cult will destroy the military if LEGALLY let in as their real sexual and physical abuse will begin on yet another level.

Homeowners and homosexuals
Since many people throw out analogies & examples on this subject, here is a parallel that hasn't been made before (I think).

Homeowners are allowed to deduct their housing cost (mortgage interest) for tax purposes; renters are not afforded the same privilege. Although this might be beneficial to the real estate market as well as the lenders, it seems unfair to the renters. TH readers are smart enough to figure out that homeowners in this example are analogous to heterosexuals - while renters are analogous to gay couples.

So, should renters also get a tax deduction for their housing costs? In fairness, they could certainly make such a case. The reasons that there hasn't been a taxpayer revolt on this issue are (a) most renters eventually aspire to become homeowners (b) landlords are not as organized as real estate professionals (c) due to the numbers, there isn't enough financial or political motivation behind this issue

My solution: repeal this deduction and lower taxes for everyone - clearly the Govt doesn't need this money, if they can give it back selectively!
------------end excerpt------------
The above is an excerpt from an article titled: "It took a Civil War to end Slavery - will Civil Unions end the 'War' on Gay Marriage?"

The article is at: http://voice.townhall.com/g/331f0d34-b56e-4a2e-9c29-64ca7eaaa12a


1% of Heterophobics Dumps on Others
Somebody always gets stepped on when you try to be tolerant to another. I agree with Greg Koukl that the heterophobics have all the laws they need for protection.

Special treatment though is what they desire based upon fleshly desires not morals. I'm tired of being dumped on by the 1% of US Citizens that are supposedly gay. Actually, most of them seem more angry then happy and gay.

General Pace's Remarks About Homosexuals
I read and enjoyed this article very much. It is an outstanding explanation of marality and the fallcies of moral relativity or neutrality. I was also very proud of General Pace for taking the stand he took. However, I very much regret the apology he issued the very next day, doubtless as a result of political pressure. A man of his courage and valor should not fold like a cheap tent just because of complaints coming from gays and gay supporters.

billyjacksblog.com

PC police...
Wow Photogbill, that was an awesome post! I would love for you to join in the discussions at my blog.

talkwisdom.blogspot.com

Benji and others are welcome, too. Even people who disagree with me are welcome, as long as we can keep the dialogue civil.

P.S. Thanks for your kind words, too.

*******

Billy Jack,

I agree with you that General Pace was probably forced (due to PC) to issue an apology. Political correctness has done much harm in this country when it comes to sharing the truth about homosexual behavior being immoral, sinful, and unhealthy. This is exactly why "hate crimes" laws are so dangerous.

bible-quoting, sanctimonious, finger-wag
Dog, Anti: you're trying to claim the High Moral Ground by basing your ideas on relativism. Morality is either based on subjective or objective viewpoints. Yours are subjective. They will flail and toss in the wind of arguments based on objective moral ideas. We cannot and will not stand as a society that includes an anything goes morality. The structure of morality that clearly states right and wrong as a guideline to strive towards emanates from a spiritual source that is good. Child abuse, rape, incest, murder, plunder, bestiality are all arguably permitted on the slippery slope of your relative morality philosophy. It, and all the other ideas from your Secular Progressive philosophy cannot stand.

The Apostate
.
Over a century ago, Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch anticipated modern secular fundamentalism with prophetic precision:

"It is now no longer enough for the apostate to be able to live undisturbed according to his convictions, as he calls them; to him there is no well-being and no peace as long as his convictions have not become the only ones recognized as right and valid.

"He sees in the Law an intellectual slavery from which it is the godly task of a second Moses to redeem his unfortunate brothers. In Torah-loyalty he sees superstition, backwardness, and at the same time a calamity which is to blame for all the miseries of the past.

"He sees in 'liberation' from the yoke of the Law a goal so high and so humanitarian that every means which seems capable of bringing about progress toward this great goal must be employed.

"He has reached the stage of waging fanatical campaigns of persecution against those loyal to the Law."

Killing old ladies
Celtic dragon tries the sleight of hand of substituting the bombing of cities for my question on the murdering of an old lady for her purse -- apparently to avoid being pinned down.

The question is whether you consider it wrong to murder an old lady for her purse, not whether you can think of unrelated situations in which the degree of wrongness may be different.

Your whole way of life depends on the vast majority of society living every day as if there are moral absolutes, whether you agree that it is so or not. Let the sense of moral absolutes slip, and all the police in the world can't preserve your quality of life against muggings, burglary, rape, murder, and various forms of impressment by the state, or indeed anyone stronger than you. The reason we don't all have to post armed guards on our rooftops 24/7 is that we have a common sense of moral absolutes, and infringing on them is relatively rare, and meets reliable punishment.

Your quarrel is not with moral absolutes per se, but with particular moral absolutes. You've demonstrated nicely that you can only attempt to wriggle out of that fact with specious reasoning.

General Pace and His Opinion
General Pace is being criticized for expressing a personal opinion. How dare he do so? He is in the military and therefore he has no right to free speech? This appears to be the center of this whole controversy to me. I spent 22 years in the Army and have heard over and over again that I did not have the same rights as other citizens. I did and so does Pace.

I spent all of my time in the military as a criminal investigator and I have heard the argument that homosexuals were born that way. I have also heard pedophiles say the same thing.

My main objection to this whole situation is calling for "homosexual marriage." Marriage has been one man and one woman in our society and it needs to stay that way.

I have this nightmare that someday one of the questions on a government document might be do you have sex with men or women.

One point that I would like to emphasize is that the left, like in most of their issues, claim to be tolerant however reality kicks in and they are intolerant of anyone that does not agree with them.

The Problem with his remark
The problem with the Generals remark is that the military has a don't ask don't tell policy towards allowing homosexuals to enlist which means there are some thousands of them serving and many serving in combat in an ongoing war and for a high ranking officer to make a remark that might negatively affect the fighting efficiency of a cambatant is a danger not only to the potential Gay person who might be impinged by the remark as he serves in a combat area but also to the soldiers who are serving with him and depending on his doing the job properly. So the General is entitled to his opinion but he should not express it publicly when it might have an adverse affect on some of his soldiers fighting a war. Moral values are relative between various cultures so that our entire value system is held in contempt by Fundamentalist Muslims who are fighting us to impose their own set of absolute morals on us. I don't happen to agree with the Islamic interpretation of moral values but there is nothing more dogmatic than the Koran and the ones who are fighting us follow it to the letter as to how they interpret it. And though Christian values may be abosolute they are the only interpretation of moral values even within the United States as there are other religions with their own set of values varius sects of Christianity which have varied interpretations of what is moral and people who don't follow an organized religion who might still have their own sense of morals. According to absolute morality who is more moral a person who calls himself Gay who doesn't cheat lie or steal, who pays his taxes, who helps others, who gives to charities or a person who calls themselves Christian but they cheat on their wife, steal from their neighbors, cheat on their taxes and never help another person? Also what if the Gay person practices abstinence, is it the fact they desire a person of the opposite sex that makes them immoral or the carrying out of the act?

Re: No moral neutrality.
R_Harris_OKC -

'Surely Koukl is not just now figuring this out.'

Apparently it's not as well known as you would think. Look at this discussion thread, and see how it's gone. See how many people are actually dealing with the point that Mr. Koukl is making.

Only a very few got the point
Seems only a very few got the real point of the original Koukl essay. The debate over homosexuality is not his point though that is where most went off.

Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and Hitler all could sound perfectly moral and logical taken out of context or selected writings taken out of the context of what they did in their lives and to others. Their speeches and writings were truly inspiring to many who wanted to believe. Yet in spite of well documented history of how evil these folks were many liberals especially and certainly the Left still defend the philosophies of the first four.

I am not young. Yet I grew up knowing homosexuals and seeing them arrested for their private and sometimes public actions. While I knew these people, I cannot say I understood their behavior or desires, try as I might. Today, I live in an area and state where homosexuals have lived together in monogamous relationships for a long time. They are not arrested or persecute accept in their own minds. It is known at their place of employment that they are homosexuals. They are rewarded or discipline based on their job performance. Understanding the general failure of two out of three heterosexual couples trying to live in marriage I am missing something about why homosexuals are demanding the legal privilege of marriage. What is their point? I have discussed this with both gays and lesbians and all I get is "we want the same rights as heteros have" but no logical argument.

While today it sounds odd that some believe that if homosexual activity is condoned and blessed by the law by allowing them the privilege of marriage where does the ball stop? Multiple spouses, group marriages, marrying children, marrying animals? I am not being sarcastic here. I know people that care for and love animals far more than they love any human. Their relationship with animals is closer than most humans. There are organizations that promote the same "rights" of sexual behavior for children as we allow for adults. Those organizations are just as well organized and funded as homosexual rights organizations were several decades ago. So why should the debate be logical and over moral standards? Every society has had clearly defined moral standards decided by the majority often based on risk of real threats to that society based on previous societal experiences. It is only in a modern "liberal" western democracy and republic that these subjects can even be debated. Remember the internal threats to democracies have always been just as dangerous as any external threat. Loss of the republic is far more threatening to everyone's rights than the minority's personal need for special privileges for a few.

ANTIteenmommas and the rest of the fa.g$
There is no war on fa.ggots. If there was you would have lost a long time ago.
I am deeply offended by you qu.eer brained morons when you equate bending over and take another man's, manhood in the hershey highway, with a person of color. To be honest if you really think they are the same then the hetero population should maybe stop you. Black people make black babies, are you saying homo-sexuals make homo-sexual babies?

Gays are the logical conclusion of the left. Supidity squared as I like to call it. You make rediculous and usupported arguments and think people should be forced to listen, and when they dont agree you call them homophobes. Sticks and stones should be left on the for school children and logic for the adults. But what can we expect from people who think it a good thing to have their a$$ penetrated on a regular basis.
Please do not insult black people, you are not slaves, you are not born gay, you choose your lifestyle.

moral certainty
If there is such a thing as absolute moral certainty and since suicide is an unforgiveable sin, (The Bible clearly shows that the unpardonable sin is any sin unrepented of (Heb. 10:26; I John 5:16; Jas. 4:17). Killing is plainly sin. One who kills himself is certainly in jeopardy of being left in an unrepentant condition.), then what of a soldier who throws himself on a grenade committing suicide but in doing so saves his fellow soldiers? Let us say he receives the Congressional Medal of Honor for his act but will he burn in hell along side of the likes of Charles Manson and if sin is sin, that is absolute morality then killing yourself is the equivalent of killing another, he is equally guilty as Charles Manson if there are no degrees of immorality but only absolute immorality?

Homosexuals Are People

But when they band together to achieve political goals I have no problem with opposing their EVERY point (if I oppose their political goals.)

But the whole point of the article wasn't, "Faggs vs. Fetuses," it was whether it is valid to take a moral stand.

For some people it is OK. For others it is definitely NOT. \

Get it?

What I like best . . .
about Koukl's article is his use of high standards. The excerpt he used from Faye Wattleton's writting was no straw man/woman concerning tolerance. He gave her her best shot. And then he proceeded to tear the heart out of her position with clear reason and relative ease.

Along comes ANTIteenmommas' immediate, immature and yes, intolerant reply. And we're back to the playground once again, where there seems to be straw everywhere.

The unpardonable sin
Prof Gene,

There is quite a difference between a soldier who throws himself upon a grenade to save the life of others (in reality, he gave his life for the sake of others) and a person who deliberately commits suicide because he/she has lost all hope in this life.

The most important element, however, in both cases of death depends on whether or not one or the other is saved by being born again through faith in Jesus Christ and the salvation he offered us at the cross.

You are correct that "unrepentant" sin can lead to the "unpardonable" sin.

In Matthew 12:31 & 32, the Pharisess had blasphemed against the Spirit by attributing the power by which Christ did miracles to Satan (12:24) instead of the Holy Spirit. The unpardonable sin is the deliberate refusal to acknowledge God's power in Christ. It indicates a deliberate and irreversible hardness of heart. Sometimes believers worry that they have accidently committed this unforgivable sin. But only those who have turned their backs on God and rejected all faith have any need to worry. Jesus said they can't be forgiven - not because their sin is worse than any other, but because they will never ask for forgiveness. Whoever rejects the prompting of the Holy Spirit removes himself or herself from the only way or means that can lead him or her to repentance and restoration to God.

In Matthew 12:34-36, Jesus reminds us that what we say reveals what is in our hearts. What kind of words come from your mouth? That is an indication of what your heart is really like. You can't solve your heart problem, however, just by cleaning up your speech. You must allow the Holy Spirit to fill you with new attitudes and motives; then your speech will be cleansed at its source.

In Mark 3:20-30, we read an additional account of where the religious leaders accused Jesus of being under Satan's power.

I have read in other blogs that Christians sometimes wonder if they have committed this sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. True believers in Christ need not worry about this sin because this sin is attributing to the devil what is the work of the Holy Spirit. It reveals a heart attitude of unbelief and unrepentance.

Deliberate, ongoing rejection of the work of the Holy Spirit is blasphemy because it is rejecting God himself. In Mark 3:20-30, the religious leaders accused Jesus of blasphemy, but ironically they were the guilty ones when they looked Jesus in the face and accused him of being possessed by Satan.

What is being done, today, by nonbelievers is the final rejection of the prompting of the Holy Spirit at the door of their hearts. Jesus is a gentleman and will not force belief in him on any soul. The Holy Spirit will continue to knock at the door of the hearts of the lost, but every lost person on earth must choose to open that door to their hearts and invite Jesus Christ to be the Savior and Lord of their life!

We can see that the pride of the heart often is the culprit that causes nonbelievers to reject Jesus Christ. In Mark 3:22-27, the Pharisees and teachers of the law could not deny the reality of Jesus' miracles and supernatural power. They refused to believe that his power was from God, however, because then they would have had to accept him as the Messiah. Their pride would not let them do that. So in an attempt to destroy Jesus' popularity among the people, the teachers of the law accused him of having power from Satan. Jesus' reply showed how silly they were and that their argument didn't make any sense!

Mark 3:20-27

A House Divided Cannot Stand


(Matt. 12:22-30; Luke 11:14-23)


20 Then the multitude came together again, so that they could not so much as eat bread. 21 But when His own people heard about this, they went out to lay hold of Him, for they said, "He is out of His mind."


22 And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, "He has Beelzebub," and, "By the ruler of the demons He casts out demons."


23 So He called them to Himself and said to them in parables: "How can Satan cast out Satan?

24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 And if Satan has risen up against himself, and is divided, he cannot stand, but has an end. 27 No one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. And then he will plunder his house.


The Unpardonable Sin


(Matt. 12:31, 32; Luke 12:10)


28 "Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; 29 but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation"-- 30 because they said, "He has an unclean spirit."

talkwisdom.blogspot.com


Verse in Mark, too
An additional account about the unpardonable sin in Mark:

The Unpardonable Sin

(Mark 3:31-32)

31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Basic Premise is Wrong
"All people regardless of their sexual orientation or other differences should be treated fairly. We all have equal intrinsic value and dignity."

"Nellie is an elephant. Nellie is pink. Therefore all elephants are pink." - Dr. Who

All people do not have equal intrinsic value or dignity. As I look at the people in my neighborhood, at my job, I see a distinct LACK of dignity.

I am not equal to Bill Gates. Bill Gates is not equal to Albert Einstein. Liberals and pseudo-conservatives like to promote the idea that the individual is special and unique. If I am unique, how can I have any equals?
The idea of universal equality is anathema to the idea of individual self-determination. It is the "one-size-fits-all" philosophy of governance.

The other flaw in his argument, is a concession to the liberal agenda that homosexuals are just another 'group', another segment of society, like blacks or females, INSTEAD of thinking of them as they are: victims of a mental/emotional illness.

My father joined the Army Air Corps during WWII; although he was otherwise physically perfectly fit, had exceptional reflexes and depth-perception, he was denied pilot status because he couldn't distinguish between two shades of red. If such a minor affliction could deny an otherwise healthy and exceptional person the service he volunteered for, how could the mental/emotional defect of homosexuality be tolerated in most fields of military service?


militant gay activism
jdw,

Very good points. My dad wanted to be an Air Force pilot during the Korean War, but his nearsightedness, unfortunately, caused him to be rejected from achieving such a goal.

He didn't protest the Air Force policy and complain that it was "unequal" or "unfair."

The political correctness saga of gay rights advocacy has gone way to far. We see the harm being done in our public schools with the "teaching" of homosexual behavior as "normal," "natural," and "healthy." Nothing could be further from the truth!

Parents' rights are being trampled upon in MA (because of the gay marriage gestapo mentality there) and CA appears to be next on the destruction list.

We must continue to speak out against such militant activism. People...it's time to rein them in.

Mr. Koukl, you are crazy, wrong or lying
You do not really believe that taking a 'morally neutral' stance is impossible. Of course it is, when the action being discussed is of no moral relevance it is the only sane position to take.

Now, I will never defend moral relativism (nor most flavors of subjectivism), but your claim is just absurd...so absurd that you cannot even pretend to commit to it...I sure hope you aren't going to claim there is a moral stance to be taken regarding the sort of sandwich I ordered for lunch? A perfect case of an amoral action with no moral relevance at all.

So, although i am in agreement, attempting to have a morally neutral stance regarding ALL issues is just plain silly, misguided, impossible and naive...The burden is on you, to show, that there is some remotely rational, meaningful, defensible conception of morality that you can ascribe to which will demonstrate that homosexuality is a moral act.

So I will ask you, Why is homosexuality a moral issue? what conception of moral value? what ethical theory? what moral consiterations are you willing to consistently commit to (and by that i mean apply universally) that will consider homosexuality a moral concern?

i can promise you wont come up with one that you are willing to apply consistently.

thanks for the article

The Myth of Morality
Please note to the person who said I did not mention the Apostle Paul. It might interest you to know that biblical scholars are currently debating as to whether Paul, also, may have been a homosexual. This is in reference to his statement: 'Why is it I do what I do not want to do, and cannot do what I want to do?' These may not be his exact words; but, the meaning and context is still there.

To Cristine: May I suggest to you that maybe you need to more carefully read your New Testament with regard to Christ's teachings. For the most part,
these teachings are primarily found in the parables. You might also wish to read his Sermon on the Mount.

We probably would all be better off if no church had ever been founded. Much of what people say is NOT what the Bible says; but, rather what their given church teaches them.

I can assure you that the Church will not save you or excuse you from your sins.

Bob's own myth...
Oh boy...here we go again.

First we have the Metropolitan "church" crowd twisting Scripture (e.g. Sodom and Gomorrah was only about "hospitality"...what a bunch of hooey!!). Then, we have the gay militant fanatics claiming that Jesus was gay. Now we have Bob claiming that Paul was gay?

Sheesh...

Bob, I suggest that you go back to my posts and see that what is being said is backed by Scripture. Go check out the verse references for yourself.

My advice to you is not to take a gay-affirming church advocate's word for it. They are involved in heresy and apostasy with their "Q.ueer Theology" lies.

God's Word trumps theirs...every time!

P.S. I would post how Scripture counters every "q.ueer theology" lie out there, but it is very long. It's at my blog. talkwisdom.blogspot.com

The Myth of Morality

For Cristine: Below I have copied and pasted your remark from a previous post.
My question to you: Christ referred to these things in one class: SINS

Christ also said in the New Testament in reference to the woman at the well, "...let him who has not SINNED cast the first stone." Isn't this tantamount to saying: 'Judge not lest you also be Judged?' Incidentally, Christ also said that in the New Testament.

*******

Jesus never said anything about homosexuality.

SO...it must be okay, right?

Talking points from Mission America

Consider these facts:

He also never said anything about rape, incest or domestic violence. Are those things okay, too?

About making judgments
Bob,

Sometimes it is really important to take into consideration the Bible verses before, and/or after the verse that you quote so you can see the correct context in which it was made.

In his "Critical Issues Commentary," author Bob Dewaay meticulously reveals that Scripture provides straightforward, objective guidelines concerning making judgments and that both the commands to judge and the commands not to judge are understandable - and they are to be obeyed.

The essay is long and detailed, but I wanted to bring over several of the paragraphs that have often come up during discussions within Christian circles regarding the recognition of sound, Biblical doctrine vs. the man-made doctrines often added by men.

One of the most misued verses in the Bible has to be Matthew 7 - the "do not judge" verse. It is unfortunately, often used by certain groups who wish to carry on their lawlessness and sin while claiming to be Christian believers. It is not my place to judge whether or not they truly are Christian believers, but as we go through parts of Dewaay's essay, we will see that we are called to judge and discern their false doctrine.

*******

Quoting Deeway:

Do Not Judge - Matthew 7
The following teaching from the Sermon on the Mount warns us not to judge:

Do not judge lest you be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. And why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your eye," and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. (Matthew 7:1-5)

Before we interpret those verses we must look at the sermon in Matthew that preceded it. The Sermon on the Mount concerns motives and sin. For example, the hypocrite prays to be "seen of men" (Matthew 6:5). Jesus' sermon contains warnings against anger (Matthew 5:22), lust (Matthew 5:28), a command to love one's enemies (Matthew 5:44) and a warning against loving money (Matthew 6:24). Jesus addresses many sin issues in a manner that would show everyone their sinfulness and need for the Gospel. Jesus said, "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:20). This statement would have shocked Jesus' hearers because the scribes and Pharisees were fastidious in keeping the law of external rules. A righteousness greater than theirs could only be the imputed righteousness of Christ that changes the heart. Without Christ's righteousness we cannot enter the kingdom.

Given this context, what is the meaning of Matthew 7:1-5? The answer is that we are warned against judging how righteous others are in comparison to ourselves. This passage is a warning against self righteousness. As sinners, we tend to minimize or rationalize our own transgressions and magnify what we see wrong in others. Jesus warns about this because self-righteousness like that of the hypocritical Pharisees will keep a person out of the kingdom of God. It is the poor in spirit and the persecuted who will "inherit the kingdom of God" (Matthew 5:3, 10). These humbled people know they need a savior.

So does Matthew 7:1-5 teach that Christians should accept all teachers and teachings without discrimination? No. This passage concerns peoples' motivations and the degree of their internal righteousness. These matters we are not to judge.

/end of quote

Christine
More good posts on your part. I'm impressed with your biblical knowledge and your ability to thoroughly answer skeptics and critics alike with well reasoned responses...and in so doing give an account for your faith.

I'll definitely have to visit your web site. Your doing a great job here. Keep up the good work.

dyerje
"Celtic dragon tries the sleight of hand of substituting the bombing of cities for my question on the murdering of an old lady for her purse -- apparently to avoid being pinned down."


Funny. I was saying something similar about you, since you weighted your question with the word "murder", thus already making an inevitable judgement. Murder is wrong be lehgal definition, but even that depends upon the judgement of legal authorities. Can you answer any of my questions? I notice you didn't really address them. For that matter, can you read? Did you go to school, or is somebody reading this to you?? If you want to debate, then learn how. Otherwise, bugger off.

Christinewjc
"Parents' rights are being trampled upon in MA (because of the gay marriage gestapo mentality there) and CA appears to be next on the destruction list."


Gay marriage Gestapo? How about we refer to you as belonging to the funamentalist/consevative Catholic SS?? Burn anybody today. Put any kids in the oven at Treblinka or Dachau? Bergen-Belsen, maybe? Do you have any clue what I am even saying?

Nazi comparisons are hyperbole...and pretty bad at that. You obviously aren't going to throw my son in an oven, and gay people...or trans people like me, are not coming to bother you. Since I happen to married, you can't do anything about it anyway. It's none of your d*mned business to begin with. get a clue, and get a life, because I am not going to roll over and die to make you feel comfortable in your neighborhood, or workplace. Get a grip, and deal with it.

Crackpots

I don't know how any rational, sane person can walk on the sidewalks of San Francisco on one of their Gay Pride Days and NOT see the evidence of debauchery and deviancy.

You would have to be deaf, dumb and blind not to understand that people engaged in the "parade" are not suffering from some kind of moral breakdown.

With the evidence before your very own eyes, what more do you need? As a former San Franciscan, I find the situation is morally repugnant and getting worse. If you want to see what the modern day Sodom and Gomorrah would look like, take a trip there and see for yourself when they have one of their parades. Maybe the Mayor would give you a personal, escorted tour.

Are you trying to kid me and say that they ARE morally representative of the highest levels of a civilized society? It seems to me to be just the opposite in that the things the gays do give evidence of the last days of what was once a great nation.

ANTIteenmommas

"...any human (has) the right to fulfull natural
sexual impluses..."

That, right there, is ABSOLUTELY the last statement that needs to be said on this post on this subject.

That's right, NO restraint, feed any compulsion, forget about good taste, unshackle anything holding you back, let no temptation be denied.

You got it, baby. Let's all get together and have the biggest orgy in the history of mankind.

Uh oh, they tried that once. It seems there was a flood and there were only eight survivors.

Definitions
In some dictionaries Virtuous = moral excellence.

That makes this article hard to understand in certain areas however it makes the big point that "legalizing" a point of view is far different than tolerating a person with bad behavior(immoral).

Once behavior becomes law, tolerance is trumped out of existence.

Legalizing, and tolerating what's now illegal, are opposites. If penalties are involved there are big problems i.e. throwing in jail someone denying the Holocaust.

Now you deny free speech. That's where the Libs are headed.

Similar groundwork is now being laid to stifle criticizism of Islam for its silence of 9/11 now resulting in turning all speech into hate speech in the eyes of the beholder with penalities as more hate speech laws are introduced.


Myth of Moral Neutrality
Koukl has written an excellent piece. I love the way he unpacked Wattleton's argument and revealed her duplicity. The best statement he made was this summary of her argument: "Faye Wattleton has devoted her career to ensuring a world in which her point of view is enforced by law."

Too bad posters such as Antiteenmommas and Dog had to so quickly degenerate the debate and throw up a straw man.

Notice how they were the first posters and neither of them were able to dispute or defend anything Koukl or Wattleton said. Unfortunately they also set the tone for the rest of the posts.

Massachusetts is showing us what will ha
If anyone still beleves the lie that gays just want to be married in order to get the benefits of marriage, just go to Provincetown, where last year a man was fired from his government job because he did not support gay "marriage". This once beautiful town has been taken over by openly gay people who will not tolerate anything but complete acceptance. My whole family, about 35 of us wanted to have a reunion there because we loved it the last time we did, in 1992, but after going there last year for a short trip, I told everyone what was happening, and everyone agrees there will be no reunion again in Massachusetts. They are teaching children as young as kindergartners that homosexuality is normal. This is what will happen in every state that enacts gay "marriage", regardless of what anyone believes.

Celtic-dragon
"It's none of your d*mned business to begin with. get a clue, and get a life, because I am not going to roll over and die to make you feel comfortable in your neighborhood, or workplace. Get a grip, and deal with it."

It's my d*mned business once you try changing my society, just as it would be your d*mned busines once I tried *changing* your society. If you don't want it to be our business, stay in your closet.

As you're the one with the obvious mental/emotional problem, you're the one who needs to get a grip.

If all of us healthy people need to "deal with" your illness, then you, being "equal" and all, need to deal with it, as well. That means dealing with our healthy attitudes about homosexuality.

When Brave Men Speak, Lesser Men Squeal
I was just reading an article written by Pat Boone over at World Net Daily entitled, "When Brave Men Speak, Lesser Men Squeal."

Excerpt:

I believe that homosexual acts between individuals are immoral, and that we should not condone immoral acts."
– Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff


"Hey, what ever happened to "political correctness," to the almost universal notion that personal convictions shouldn't ever be voiced publicly, for fear someone of a different persuasion might be offended? For that matter, who ever said that somebody could just sound off about his beliefs without the approval and authority of the government and all minority groups?

Oh, that's right … our Founding Fathers, the writers of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. That's who. I almost forgot." - Pat Boone

*******
Way to go, Pat!

For Brian Wren
you asked, "Care to provide the link to the site you are quoting from? (I suspect it is so fringe, you are actually avoiding that. What is it, the official site of the Ku Klux Klan?)

Actually, Brian, I copied those quotes directly from a thread on this blog - you can look them up, I think they're on Mike Adams' column on setting fire to Gay bathhouses - I just compiled them from a thread of posters like yourself who I thought were pretty typical of all the Town Hall sages writing about homosexuality. I just wanted to condense all of the hate and ignorance to hold up a mirror to the rest of you.

an invitation to all...
if you wanna actually consider the arguments for and against homosexuality...come to the spice report...im here for you.
ill give you a hand over the next couple days.
most of y'all really need the help...(you too mr. koukl!)

as for the moral neutrality question? it is still absolutely absurd to assume that there exist no 'morally neutral' viewpoints regarding any particular actions. Of course there are. Lets hope that people have morally neutral viewpoints about amoral stuff.

don't forget to use that reason! god gave it to ya for a reason! (just as a bit more assistance, y'all are throwing around that term like crazy. the most workable, acceptable, conventional definition of that term is something like: having to do with reason, reason being the faculty that allows one to determine true or false without appealing to any empirical evidence....y'all sure as heck don't mean that when you are using the term.

bubbaspice— crazy, wrong or lying
bubbaspice writes: “The burden is on you [Koukl], to show, that there is some remotely rational, meaningful, defensible conception of morality that you can ascribe to which will demonstrate that homosexuality is a moral act.”


There’s no burden for Koukl to show same sex intercourse to be a moral issue. You go right ahead and affirm that gay relationships treat people like lunch meat. In so doing, you (or whoever else is foolish enough to push that point) make more than enough points for him.

dull, dull, dull no no no...
sorry if i was confusing...let me make it clear...my claim regarding sandwich choice was in reference to the claim that moral neutrality is impossible...

my sandwich example was used to provide a circumstance under which it is not only entirely possible to take a morally neutral stance, it is the stance that common sense, reason and any remotely acceptable account of morality demands.

that was all. i wasn't referring to homosexuality at all nor was i making an analogy to homosexuality.

at least you are starting to offer a morally relevent characteristic as to way homosexuality may be a moral concern...and i applaud you for it.

but try to stay away from straw men. i put enough stupid words in my own mouth, i don't need you to do it for me.

2 more cents
Although I have no qualms about the morality or immorality of homosexualism, I do strenuously object to the use of homosexuality as a political issue.

While the left generally demands homos the "right to marry", the issue isn't really about that so-called right.

The REAL issue is about the homos getting a piece of paper (called a "marriage license" in most jurisdications), issued by the county government under state law, that actually legitimizes same-sex behavior.

While private sexual behavior between consenting adults has been decriminalized, that's not good enough for the homos. There are, apparently, churches that will conduct marriage ceremonies and issue a marriage certificate to homos. The certificates are not the same as the licenses.

Homos want the LICENSE. They will villify ANYONE who even hints at anything other than that. So much for their vaunted "tolerance".

It's homos' intolerance of straights and homos' insistence of politicizing the issue that I take acception to and am so very offended by.

Talk about straw, bubba,
I think you are being willfully ignorant of what Koukl is saying, but at least you are addressing the topic unlike most of the other posters.

Koukl's column addresses "moral neutrality." The word "neutral," you will recall, is used to describe a position that does not favor, support, etc. any side in an argument, dispute, etc. In other words, if there are no sides, there isn't a neutral position. So, there first has to be an argument with at least two sides for the possibility of neutrality to even exist.

Next, "moral" pertains to judgement dealing with good and bad, right and wrong. When you put "moral" and "neutrality" together, you get a position that does not take sides in an argument over whether something is good or evil, right or wrong. So, you see, your statement, "Lets hope that people have morally neutral viewpoints about amoral stuff" doesn't make any sense. A person's stance on how his sandwich is made might be neutral, but it will not be morally neutral.

It's fairly obvious that Koukl was not talking about any arguments where one can take sides, but about arguments where one can take sides on whether something is good or evil, right or wrong. Of course, his point here is that in these arguments there is not neutral ground.

Now if you want to argue that Koukl is wrong, that there neutral ground in a moral argument, or if you want to argue that the argument over homosexuality is not a moral one, feel free to hack away at it. But let's not confuse the lefties here by interchanging "moral neutrality" with "neutrality."

jdw
If you feel like you want to step into my marriage and make it your business, be aware that I have no compunction about using any means necessary to to get you right back out. You may want to bring body armor with a trauma plate, because I will empty the magazine...reload...and keep shooting. That goes for any fundamentalsit who wants to bring some sort of "judgement" on my family. I won't play around, and I am quite competant with my weapons. Consider yourselves warned.

celtic-dragon
If you do have a child and you are spewing this immoral rhetoric, you should be charged with child endangerment and the child should be removed from your custody. You have no business passing on your hedonistic, self-gratifying, immorals to anyone, let alone an impressionable young person. You should be ashamed. All I ask is that you stop forcing your disgusting lifestyle on the rest of us. I have a right not to have my child be taught that sodomy is a perfectly natural way to carry on a relationship. Why can't you just keep your depraved lifestyle to yourself and we will take care of your child when he or she is grown and can't understand why he was so mistreated by his own so-called parents.

Lucretia
Any relation to Pope Borgia? If there is anyone depraved here, it's you. You don't know anything about me or my family, and your vile insinuations expose you for the perverted harridan that you are. You should get proffesional help, because your disgusting and unseemly fascination with what you imagine other people's intimate lives to be is bizarre and unhealthy.

cyne...we are getting closer...maybe
the example I used, i hoped (maybe stupidly) would illuminate what I take to be a bit of confusion on Mr. Koukl's (and apparently everyone else's) part...and your explication of my point (however thoughtful) seems to make me believe that i hit the mark.

IF we have determined that a particular concern is a moral one, THEN we can not be 'morally neutral' given that concern (for example, if i were to remain silent regarding the morality of say, murder...my silence would be a decidedly strong moral stance). But that stance would be moral because I could give you an account of morality such that murder is included in those things that ought to be considered moral: because it denies happiness, limits freedom, ends a life etc....
My point is that until it is demonstrated otherwise, what Mr. Koukl might be referring to as 'morally neutral' may actually be a case of something amoral. What is moral about this gay humping thing? why? I need a compelling (preferably sound) argument that is gonna lead me to believe that it is in fact a moral concern, THEN I am going to need a reason why it is right or wrong. Whatever features make the gay humping thing a moral concern are going to go along way to helping determine the rightness or wrongness of the action. I haven't heard a compelling argument from anyone as to what the moral features of gay stuff are. (I hope that we can agree that 'God said so' is gonna be a pretty tough argument to support no matter how you slice it)

It's just a pet peeve of mine, all these people arguing oh so vehemently without supporting the assumptions/really contentious claims that serve as their premises.

(by the way not every normative claim [one that includes an ought or should] is going to be moral. We have normative claims regarding all sorts of things that aren't moral (epistemology and aesthetics come immediately to mind...some say 'one should appreciate beethoven,' 'one ought to believe in the law of gravity' etc...)


thanks for the thoughtful response

ANTIteenmommas
Good luck talking to hate mongers. That's why I don't really come around much anymore, except to update my blog and write to some of my friends here. People who get rabid here don't want to listen to reason, and will refuse any attempt to engage in actual conversation. They are already primed to hate you as a godless enemy of their faith. They want mindless vindication of what they have been promised for years, and they don't want to think too hard. What they have been promised is that some avenging 'terminator" Christ will avenge their victemhood, and we have to be cast as the agressors. Note how they always portyay themselves as being under attack, while they are the ones attacking you and me. Like I said, good luck. I think I will go back to writing about military technology at my blog, and leave the rabid zealots to their frenzy. I know in the end that our Lord is a God of love and mercy. I wonder who or what some of these folks worship, because it has no relation to the living God I am familiar with.

The Living God
The Living God has given us rules to live by and if we CHOOSE to ignore those rules, we will not find hapiness and peace in the next life with Him. Isn't that what most religions teach?
But I never mentioned religion. I am talking about the fact that no matter how you must hate it, the pairing of two men or two women will never result in the birth of a new human being. What is it about that, that you don't understand? Why do you espouse to a reality where, if everyone were to suddenly decide to become homosexual and engage only in sex with the same gender, this would be lead to the destruction of the human race? What is wrong with you?
I cannot allow my children to be taught to accept this. Why don't I have any rights?

ANTIteenmommas
Again, what is it about the fact that I do not want your abnormal thinking to infest my children? You are not answering my questions.
And FYI, the blood vessels in the anus are extremely sensitive and can burst very easily. They are not meant to be stretched in any way. Why do you suppose that hospitals recommend that you are sedated when you have a colonoscopy? It's because, it is painful to most human beings to have their anuses invaded. Leads me to believe that anyone who enjoys it is not normal.
You are a very sick, twisted individual, and what you do in the privacy of a sick twisted relationship is your business, as long as you do you not involve innocent children in these depraved endeavors. Your chosen relationship cannot produce a child, therefore, you do not deserve to have a child.

the myth of moral neutrality
Homosexuality and the issue same-sex marriage are currently being used as the spearhead in the effort to destroy the bases of Western civilization, particularly the family and the Judeo-Christian tradition. Homosexualists, of course, have a real grudge against this tradition because of its historic condemnation of homosexuality. Thus, the homosexualists and their secular humanist allies characterize Christian religion as being intolerant, indeed, as bigoted towards gays, said intolerance and bigotry being "bad" things, of course. Their general condemnation of Christianity because of its "inherent bigotry" would be justified, then, which is why Christians are more and more subject to unfavorable court rulings regarding freedom of speech and religion, as well as restrictive legislation concerning them in many countries by judges and legislators sympathetic to the humanist/homosexualist cause.

But this charge of bigotry and intolerance requires, also, that some sort of moral judgment must have first been made. Thus, is posed a very interesting question:

By what or whose moral authority or standard is this judgment of Christian tradition being made?

Secular humanists and homosexualists have never adequately answered this question.

From what I've seen, the "immorality" of Christian "bigotry" towards gays has been based upon the individual feelings and assessments of humanist/homosexualist sympathizers, whether they be judges, lawmakers, intellectuals or other people of influence..... or as some one put it, "all the cool people in the know."

That is to say, these judgments are personal and arbitrary, and may just as well be pure whimsy.

cyne...we are getting closer...maybe
As a response to bubbaspice:

Gay humping in and of itself may theoretically do harm to no one, as any particular sexual practice may do no harm, also. But the gap between theory and reality is vast.

No action or behavior exists in isolation. They create, exist and perpetuate a particular social climate.

Homosexuality might be compared to drug use, and a similar question so often posed by gay rights advocates might also be asked by drug users: How does some one minding his own business and shooting heroin or snorting coke affect your personal life and happiness? Well, it shouldn't.

But that is theory. In real life we know that drug use creates and perpetuates an undesirable social climate. The same can be said of homosexual activity. It creates and perpetuates a climate that glorifies self-centeredness, hedonistic pleasures, the spread of diseases, social instability and so forth, the so-called "gay lifestyle."

If society had to choose between behavior that focuses on children and stable family relationships, and ones that focus on individualistic, hedonistic pleasures and one-night stands, what should be its preference?

The problem with homosexuality is not so much the isolated act, but the entire social climate created and perpetuated by the pursuit of homosexual pleasures. It is no different from the same problem any life of sexual immorality would create.

Finally, a voice of reason
I got worried last night. After reading the filth from anti and the hate from celtic, I thought that this conversation was destined for reaching the bottom of the pit of hell.

But praise God!

After much grossness and hate-spewing from antiteenmomma and celtic dragon (quite the unusual screen names, btw) we have a voice of REASON!!

Thank you, Charlie Feather!

Very well said!!

Moral Values
Abortion is a choice - sort of like an act between consenting adults. That sounds reasonable because that's how the thinking goes. But lets take that a little farther - What If I shoot and kill someone. When I go to court to be tried for murder, I can claim that I performed an act between consenting adults. What Judge could convict me? who could say otherwise? surely noot the victim.
Murder is always wrong, whether before or after birth!

Death by homosexual behavior
Here ya go antiteenmomma - a post just for you:


So....now we are seeing 'safe sex fatigue' among the promiscuous, anonymous-sex-encounters male homosexual and bisexual population which is resulting in an increase in spreading HIV/AIDS as well as LGV? How much longer until something is done to curb these people from spreading DEADLY disease? How long will our medical community just let this go on without doing anything to prevent such behavior? It's just unbelievable to me...people are quarantined for other deadly diseases to halt their spread but not so for people who spread disease sexually. Why is that? Politically incorrect to intervene? Don't want to appear homophobic, bigoted, discriminatory or judgmental now, do we?

Meanwhile, the REAL cause(s) of the problems are being ignored and/or dismissed while hundreds of thousands of people are contracting this disease at an alarming rate and many of them are dying as a result. The mantra of "safe sex using condoms" is NOT WORKING, where the African countries where abstinence is being taught IS WORKING. When are the liberals going to wake up, face the facts of this disasterous situation and DO SOMETHING TO STOP IT? How long are they going to trumpet failed policies THAT ARE NOT WORKING to curb the spread of HIV/AIDS amongst homosexual/bisexual men? I truly wonder...

Christine



This is a WorldNetDaily printer-friendly version of the article which follows.
To view this item online, visit http: //www. worldnetdaily. com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=44561


Thursday, June 2, 2005




'New AIDS' spreading
among homosexual men
LGV cases in U.S., Canadian cities point to spike in anonymous sex acts

Posted: June 2, 2005
5:00 p.m. Eastern




© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com
In an eerily similar way to how HIV/AIDS was first spread, a heretofore rare sexually transmitted disease some are calling the "new AIDS" is making its way through the male homosexual community in Canada and the U.S.

According to a report in the Canadian Medical Association Journal, lymphogranuloma venereum, or LGV, has been identified in 22 homosexual and bisexual men in Canada in recent months, all of whom practice risky sexual behavior – including anal sex without a condom, ingesting the drug crystal meth anally and "fisting."

Six cases have been identified in Boston, Mass., reports the Associated Press, while the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has confirmed LGV cases in San Francisco, Atlanta, and New York City in the last few months.


LGV is spread in similar ways as is HIV/AIDS – among men who have anonymous sex in bathhouses and via near-anonymous encounters arranged through Internet chat groups, reports the Toronto Globe and Mail.

The medical report notes LGV is a bacterial infection and, unlike AIDS, is easily treatable with antibiotics. Symptoms include small painless lesions on the genitals and swollen glands.

Because LGV creates sores, carriers are more likely to spread HIV because bodily fluid is more likely to get into the bloodstream.

"This is an important public-health and clinical challenge," Thomas Wong, M.D., director of the community-acquired-infections division of the Public Health Agency of Canada said, according to the Globe and Mail.

Wong says the growth of LGV points to a "safer-sex fatigue," the popularity of party drugs that strip away inhibitions and the increasingly common practice of anonymous sex.

"LGV isn't the only sexually transmitted disease we're seeing. The number of cases of syphilis, gonorr.hea, chlamydia are all increasing," Wong said.

A form of the STD chlamydia, LGV if left untreated, can cause swelling of the genitals and rectum, and can lead to meningitis, encephalitis and even death.

Though the disease is common in the tropics, it didn't appear in the industrialized world until 2003, when it infected a group of sex tourists in the Netherlands. LGV then spread to Belgium, France, Germany, Sweden, Britain, the United States and Canada.

One LGV patient at Boston's Fenway Community Health clinic said he probably acquired the disease while visiting Brazil.

The Canadian report noted none of the men infected with LGV in Canada had travelled abroad recently, but all had the same strain of the disease that is circulating in the Netherlands.

Those infected in Canada engaged in "Internet partnering," frequented bathhouses, or had sex at rave parties, the report stated.

''We hadn't seen an LGV case for years," Dr. Alfred DeMaria, Massachusetts director of communicable disease control, told AP. ''It's definitely a sign of unsafe sex, and that's a concern in terms of other sexually transmitted diseases and HIV. Now, I think we're at the point that people need to pay attention to it."

charlie..at least you are trying
I really appreciate that you at least made an attempt to actually account for what might make homosexuality wrong...

there are a couple of concers:

are you able to prove a causal relationship between gay humping and the downfall of society that you describe? that is going to be really hard to do.

since it will be impossible to prove a causal relationship (all one need to do is point to oone person engagin in gay sex who DOESNT lead to any of those apparently negative consequences that you talk about) your claim becomes, 'those things that might lead to negative consequences for society x are morally wrong'...if so, i can only assume you will be against a whole bunch of stuff (because i am assuming you are rational)...
like you said, drugs are out, but guns are going to have to be out too, fast food, smoking, drinking, cars...and so on and so on...

if anything, i can offer far more in the way of PROOF that those things CAUSE harm to society... SO, are you willing to be consistent?

are you willing to take as strong a stand against fast food? cars? smoking? booze? and countless other things? we have much more reason to believe that they cause a bunch more harm to society than gay humping does (particularly given that it is going to be impossible to prove that gay humping CAUSES harm (i'll remind you of the difference between causal and corollary relationships)

thanks for responding, giving some reasons for your beliefs and humoring my pain in the butt gadfly self.

The Myth of Morality
To Cristine:

I can see that you are well versed on the Bible. I am not sure about the logic behind your statements.
I think it is because I fail to make the connection of the Holy Trinity with the whole teachings in the
Bible. I cannot define God for to do so would be to limit him. If I did that, God would NOT be God. But we can define Christ. Is he the Savior? As a Christian, I say yes. For the Jews-the orthodox Jews--he is not the Savior.

I am not defending Homosexuality. In fact I loath
their practices. I do not subscribe to civil unions, let alone same sex marriage. I have voted against this in every election here in Oregon.

For me the definition of SIN is anything done against the Teachings of Christ, and The Ten Commandments. I do not think that I said Paul was a homosexual. I did say that biblical scholars are researching the possibility of it based on one of his sayings to the effect: "Why is it I do what I do not want to do; and, do not do what I want to do?" For that matter, let me come up to more recent times. Some literary scholars think that
Shakespeare was a homosexual. Some literary scholars have suggested the possibility of Walt Whitman who wrote "Leaves of Grass" as possibly being a homosexual. They have done so particularly in reference to his long poem in that book, SONG
OF MYSELF.

Back to the Bible, and Sin, I would also consider
the Proverbs in the Old Testament as excellent instruction for life.

Now, for the Holy Trinity. As I understand it,
the Trinity refers to God the Father, God the Son,
and God of the Holy Spirit. I realize the importance of it from the standpoint of the Christian Teaching. What I cannot understand is
the concept of three persons being ONE.

I do believe that we need God and we also need
Christ. Without Christ we cannot possibly identify or relate to God.

I also think that this discussion has gotten off track on what Greg said concerning General Pace and his statement. How interesting.

bubbaspice-- catching up on stuff moral
bubba:
"like you said, drugs are out, but guns are going to have to be out too, fast food, smoking, drinking, cars...and so on and so on...

"if anything, i can offer far more in the way of PROOF that those things CAUSE harm to society... SO, are you willing to be consistent?"


dullhammer:
Same-sex relationships are intrinsically the converse of heterosexuality. They are by nature the abuse of the original design and purpose of human sexuality. Consistent with that: drugs are not out, the abuse of drugs is what is out; guns are not out, the abuse of guns is what is out. You will no doubt want to come back and ask me to prove the obvious, but before you do that I ask you if you will concede that this topic is indeed a moral topic. Yea or Nay?

BTW, I prefer "lunchmeat man" to "straw man" and would appreciate it if you, and the rest of the world, would respect my personal choice of vocabulary.

I knew you did not directly connect the sandwich and the homosexual. But that was essentially what you were asking for. If homosexual (or heterosexual) intercourse is not in and of itself a moral issue then one might as well be talking about lunchmeat man.

I stand by the confusion of your words (and mine). ... ;-)


for the otherly 'oriented'
I'm interested in hearing why it would be 'immoral', or 'wrong' for Farmer Brown to 'marry' Bessie, or a saintly pedophile to 'marry' a busload of boyscouts desirous of a loving committed relationship? Is there a line? Should there be? If so, why there? When the issue of polygamy comes up next, where will you stand?

Bob
Slandering the Apostle Paul. Amazing!
Galatians 1:1

To Bob
Bob said, "Now, for the Holy Trinity. As I understand it,
the Trinity refers to God the Father, God the Son,
and God of the Holy Spirit. I realize the importance of it from the standpoint of the Christian Teaching. What I cannot understand is
the concept of three persons being ONE."

*******
You are not alone in your difficulty to understand the concept. Many people have felt that way too. Perhaps we can discuss it further at my blog since it is going off topic here?

talkwisdom.blogspot.com

I will work on creating a new post on the Trinity. I have done a lot of study on it and maybe what I share will give you a better understanding of the concept. Of course, it is a matter of faith, first and foremost.

I have gotten into discussions about this with Jehovah Witnesses. The one portion of scripture that I refer them to is:

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Mat 28:19 "Go therefore* and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Mat 28:20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.*
*******
Notice the singular of "name" used in the Mat. 28:20 verse.

Plus, how could Jesus be with us always? Through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the heart of each believer.

Plus, where does Jesus' authority come from? God the Father.

dull..i think you got my point exactly
because maybe we are talking about something of no more moral significance than lunch meat.

natural law theory is gonna be even trickier to hold consistently than the do no harm/utilitarian sort of deal you were hinting at.

the initial premise of natural law theory is that everything has a 'natural' purpose and violation of that purpose is wrong...

the trouble starts when we start trying to define 'natural' and trying to determine somethings 'true' purpose. plenty of things have more than one.

if by 'natural' we mean within the bounds of the laws that govern the natural/physical world...well then obviously any human behavior is natural (cause we can't defy gravity)..

if it means something else we are gonna have a hard time figuring out what that is. if it just means normal or average, then we ought to prohibit any and all excellences (because it sure isn't normal to study or practice or work 20 hrs a day)...

the purposeful chunk, the teleoligucal, opens up a whole new can of worms...how do we determine the real or highest purpose?'

is giving a thumbs up the same sort of moral wrong as gay humping? what about snapping my fingers? or twiddling my thumbs? or playing tiddly winks? which of those are the natural purposes of my digits and if they aren't am i not wrong for using them in the wrong way?

if youa re going to consistently maintain that each organ has but one natural purpose...then we are gonna have a lot of trouble determining what that purpose is and if we try to a whole slew of behaviors are going to be out the window. on the other hand, if you are going to allow for multiple purposes, then sex for pleasure/intimacy is gonna be right back in play...

im gonna discuss all this stuff on my horribly lame blog this week...i think it may be worth it...flesh out the popular arguments for both sides and show why they are all pretty darned weak...dont be afraid to visit the spice report (it's on google's blogspot deal, im new to this but its pretty darned addictive ain't it?).

its a tough row to hoe...but im gonna keep on digging.

thanks again for the discussion

re: Homosexuality in the New Testament
Matthew 19, 3-6 Jesus said to them "Have you not read that the Creator, from the beginning, made them male and female, and said, "For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife, and the two shall become as one flesh"?"
The reason Jesus made no specific reference to homosexuality, pedophilia, incest or any other unnatural act, is that this said it for him. He did not want to dignify these debase and disgusting acts by even speaking of them. He distinctly pointed out what the human sexual act was intended for.


For Lucretia
Dear Lucretia,

I, for one, appreciate your attempts to "reach" antiteenmomma with biblical truth. However, when a person closes off their mind to receiving spiritual truth, they tend to "argue their way" by using what they perceive as "human wisdom," rather than recognizing the ultimate kind of wisdom, Godly wisdom, that can only be found in the Bible. She doesn't even realize that she is stuck in the web of deceit that the enemy of our souls has spun in her life.

Notice how angry she became when any of the Christians posting here tried to share the wisdom and knowledge of Jesus Christ and His Word, the Bible.

Why are the lost are so angry at Christians? Why are unrepentant homosexuals particularly and especially angry at Christians? Their rants here are just a symptom of the disease that they refuse to face...their sin nature.

This anger stems from the fact that those who are lost, deep, deep, down, know that something is missing in their life. However, they will do everything humanly possible not to admit or acknowledge that fact.

When God created Adam, He created Adam in perfection and with a spiritual connection to God. One of the byproducts of Adam's sin was that spiritual connection with God was broken. There was now a gulf between man and God
due to man's sin. Since each person is born with sin, they are born with a void in their life that only being reconnected to God can fill.

There is a void in a person's life that subconsciously they know is there and are
trying to fill.

Antiteenmommas and others...I join Lucretia in wanting to tell you today that this void can ONLY be filled by reconnecting to God. The Good News today is that God loves us so much, He sent Jesus to die for OUR sins so that by putting our faith in Him, we could be reconnected with God and that void in our life would be filled.

However, there will always be people who will turn down that offer of forgiveness, mercy and grace simply because pride of self won't allow them to repent of their sins. They would rather stay in their sins for temporary sexual (or other) pleasure; a type of joy that robs the soul and spirit and certainly doesn't last from this life into eternity. The true joy that they seek will always be missing.

The difference is, a Christian can know joy, despite the pain life has to offer. A Christian can know peace, even in the midst of the fiercest
trials. That is why a Christian can enjoy the abundance of this life, even when there is no abundance by this world's standards. The joy, the peace, the abundance of this life comes from having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and being reconnected with God our Creator.

THAT is why the lost are so angry at Christians. They have rejected God's free gift of everlasting life through Jesus Christ and look to the things of this world to try and fill the void only God can fill. From time to time,
they must justify in their own mind their rejection of Christ. The way they
normally do this is by attacking the Bible, since it is God's Word that condemns them.


All of this is done to try and minimize and discredit the Bible from being God's inspired, inerrant Word, representing absolute truth, and our final authority in all matters. Again, it is God's Word that condemns them for their rebellion, so of course it is God's Word they attack.

My advice is for antiteenmommas to visit a local Christian bookstore and you will find many books that explain in depth why the Bible really is the Word of God and perfect in every way.

Lucretia, be encouraged! Many times, the anger of the lost keeps many people from sharing their faith. I can see that you do not shy away from challenges. The verse, "well done good and faithful servant!" comes to mind!

Never forget, they are angry at God, NOT you. Your job is simply to tell them the truth, and share with them the hope and love of Christ. What they choose to do with that truth is
then between them and God.

I applaud your efforts...

Christine

Problems reading &posting TH--any??
others having similar problems? We have not been able (for several days) to even read the 2nd page of columns, or to "vote" on columns.

ANTIteenmommas
That certainly sounded angry.

The fact is that it isn't "hatred" to disagree with someone or say that something they're doing is immoral. I don't hate myself or my wife or my children. All of us have done immoral things and often struggle with habits or tendencies. These tendencies feel quite natural but that simply doesn't make them moral.

Nor is it hatred to reject the irrational notion that a chosen behavior (regardless of arguments concerning tendency) serves as a foundation for the demands being made by homosexual groups.

Koukl's article is dead on and you've provided an excellent example of it.


ANTI & Co--in spite of all posts to cont
contrary, 99% of Americans don't CARE what you and those others with same-sex attraction do IN THE PRIVACY OF YOUR OWN HOME. In fact, we DON'T WANT TO HEAR ABOUT IT!!!

I'd like to propose that we (instead of repealing the policy) EXTEND the "don't ask, don't tell" policy of the military to ALL OF CIVILIAN SOCIETY!!

Let's make it illegal to talk or write about these (SHOULD BE) private matters anywhere.

That CERTAINLY includes in the State Capitols (Legislatures, Court Houses, etc.), and the SCHOOLS!!


Did you all see the latest school scanda
on World Net Daily, about the Deerfield High School in Illinois, where Freshmen were being taught (read INDOCTRINATED) about homosexual stuff (sorry for the bad pun)?

But that's not the WORST PART!! They had to sign a "confidentiality agreement" to NOT SPEAK ABOUT IT to anyone, ESPECIALLY THEIR PARENTS!!

charlie..at least you are trying
reply to bubbaspice Sunday, March, 18, 2007 2:43 PM

I believe you are conflating my two different posts. One concerned the judgment that is passed on the Judeo-Christian tradition by its detractors, where no one has, as yet, attempted to answer the question I posed in it.

But to clarify, it is not "gay humping" that might be a cause for the downfall of Western civilization, but the attack on the pillars that support this civilization that are the family and the Judeo-Christian ethical tradition. It just so happens that "gay humpers" are part of the assault on these foundations for the reason I exposed in my first post "the myth of moral neutrality" of Sunday, March, 18, 2007 8:30 AM.

In my second following post in reply to you, "cyne... we are getting closer... maybe", I make the comparison of the REALISTIC consequences of the habitual practice homosexuality to that of drug use, making the point that each in its own way creates, exists in and perpetuates an undesirable and dangerous social climate. I do not arrive at these conclusions by logical syllogisms, but see instead an empirical reality that needs only to be observed. There is no need to over-intellectualize and argue the obvious. Experience and observation are sufficient guides.

And you are correct in that, yes, I am against violence, unhealthy foods, smoking, drinking, gambling, whoring, and so on and so on...

I suppose that makes me a Puritan, then. But I consider those things in their own ways, an assault on others or on one's self.

ANTIteenmommas
I feel so sorry for you because you think that the seed of man, which is absolutely necessary for the procreation of the human race is garbage.

You have obviously never known a decent man.

The fact is, 100% of all people who "think" they must be homosexual have never had the love of a parent or guardian who was a good, caring, loving, nurturing person of the opposite sex. They are as lost as you are.

I only hope one day that you will find peace with the way God intended us to be.

New information JoJo?
What information, not available in 1993, is now available that compels special treatment for homosexuals?


Neutrality is philosophically impossible
Neutrality is philosophically impossible:
http://www.teamtruth.com/articles/art_impossibleneutrality. htm
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