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Sunday, February 11, 2007
Gregory Koukl :: Townhall.com Columnist
Same-Sex Marriage — Challenges & Responses
by Gregory Koukl
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The latest in the aggressive efforts to redefine marriage is a Washington state initiative that would nullify marriages that don’t produce children. “Absurd.” That is even how the supporters describe their attempt to challenge the Washington State Supreme Court’s Anderson ruling last year. As we all know, the redefinition of marriage or the attempt to clarify the traditional definition has been the subject of courts, legislative houses, and voter initiatives across the country.

A few years ago, the L.A. Times quoted a homosexual mayor in New York State dismissing the cultural significance of same-sex marriage. “I’ve never heard of anyone’s life being destroyed because someone got married,” he sniffed. Reading this assertion charitably (he couldn’t have meant no one’s life was ever destroyed by marriage), I take it this government official was mystified by the idea that anything bad could come of men marrying men or women marrying women. I immediately knew I was listening to a man who didn’t understand a simple truth: Ideas have consequences. In the case of same-sex marriage, the consequences will be massive.

First, changing the definition of marriage implies that marriage is just a matter of cultural definition. If so, then “marriage” is nothing in particular and can be restructured at the whim of the people. It’s privileges, protections, responsibilities, and moral obligations are all up for grabs. Even as I write, there are cases wending their way through courts in Utah challenging prohibitions on polygamy. Why not, if “marriage” is just a social construction?

Second, a marriage license for same-sex couples would be a governmental declaration that homosexual unions are no different than heterosexual unions in the eyes of the law. This, too, has consequences.

It will then be impossible to deny homosexuals full adoption rights. For the first time in the history of civilization a culture will declare that neither mothers nor fathers are essential components of parenthood; neither makes a uniquely valuable contribution. Same-sex marriage will deny children a right to a mother and a father.

So, for starters, motherhood, fatherhood, marriage, and family concepts foundational to any civilization are all at stake.

These are no small consequences.

Unfortunately, addressing this issue requires refined distinctions and careful thinking that are easily overwhelmed by sound-byte rhetoric and broad, indiscriminate appeals to “rights.”

What follows is a point-by-point reply to those who are demanding this revision of civilization.

Same-Sex Marriage and Civil Rights

1. “We’re being denied the same rights as heterosexuals. This is unconstitutional discrimination.”

There are two complaints here. First, homosexuals don’t have the same legal liberties heterosexuals have. Second, homosexual couples don’t have the same legal benefits as married couples. The first charge is simply false. Any homosexual can marry in any state of the Union and receive every one of the privileges and benefits of state-sanctioned matrimony. He just cannot marry someone of the same sex. These are rights and restrictions all citizens share equally. I realize that for homosexuals this is a profoundly unsatisfying response, but it is a legitimate one, nonetheless. Let me illustrate. Smith and Jones both qualify to vote in America where they are citizens. Neither is allowed to vote in France. Jones, however, has no interest in U.S. politics; he’s partial to European concerns. Would Jones have a case if he complained, “Smith gets to vote [in California], but I don‚t get to vote [in France]. That‚s unequal protection under the law. He has a right I don’t have.” No, both have the same rights and the same restrictions. There is no legal inequality, only an inequality of desire, but that is not the state’s concern.

The marriage licensing law applies to each citizen in the same way; everyone is treated exactly alike. Homosexuals want the right to do something no one, straight or gay, has the right to do: wed someone of the same sex. Denying them that right is not a violation of the equal protection clause.

The second complaint is more substantial. It’s true that homosexual couples do not have the same legal benefits as married heterosexuals regarding taxation, family leave, health care, hospital visitation, inheritance, etc. However, no other non-marital relationships between individuals – non-gay brothers, a pair of spinsters, college roommates, fraternity brothers – share those benefits, either. Why should they?

If homosexual couples face “unequal protection” in this area, so does every other pair of unmarried citizens who have deep, loving commitments to each other. Why should gays get preferential treatment just because they are sexually involved?

The government gives special benefits to marriages and not to others for good reason. It’s not because they involve long-term, loving, committed relationships. Many others qualify there. It’s because they involve children. Inheritance rights flow naturally to progeny. Tax relief for families eases the financial burden children make on paychecks. Insurance policies reflect the unique relationship between a wage earner and his or her dependents (if Mom stays home to care for kids, she ˆ and they ˆ are still covered).

These circumstances, inherent to families, simply are not intrinsic to other relationships, as a rule, including homosexual ones. There is no obligation for government to give every human coupling the same entitlements simply to “stabilize” the relationship. The unique benefits of marriage fit its unique purpose. Marriage is not meant to be a shortcut to group insurance rates or tax relief. It’s meant to build families. Peter Sprigg of the Family Research Council sums the issue up nicely:

Gay citizens” already have the same right to marry as anyone else – subject to the same restrictions. No one may marry a close blood relative, a child, a person who is already married, or a person of the same sex. However much those restrictions may disappoint the incestuous, pedophiles, polygamists, and homosexuals, the issue is not discrimination. It is the nature of marriage itself.”

2. “They said the same thing about interracial marriage.”

This challenge has great rhetorical force, but it is a silly objection. Consider two men, one rich and one poor, seeking to withdraw money from their bank. The rich man is denied because his account is empty. However, on closer inspection, a clerk discovers an error, corrects it, and releases the cash. Next in line, the poor man is denied for the same reason: insufficient funds. “That’s the same thing you said about the last guy,” he snaps. “Yes,” the clerk replies. “We made a mistake with his account, but not with yours. You’re broke.”

In the same way, it simply is not relevant that the same objection has been used to deny both interracial and homosexual marriage. It’s only relevant if the circumstances are the same, regardless of the objection. They are not.

Same-sex marriage and interracial marriage have nothing in common. There is no difference between a black and a white human being because skin color is morally trivial. There is an enormous difference, however, between a man and a woman. Ethnicity has no bearing on marriage. Sex is fundamental to marriage.

This approach won’t work to justify polygamous or incestuous unions (“In the past people wouldn’t allow interracial marriages, either.”). It is equally ineffectual here. The objection may be the same, but the circumstances are entirely different.

3. “We shouldn’t be denied the freedom to love who we want.”

Columnist Ellen Goodman writes, “The state is on shaky ground when it tries to criminalize sexual relations of the consensual living arrangements of adults.” In San Francisco, a giddy newly “married” lesbian celebrates, “Now we’re not second-class citizens; now we can have a loving relationship like every other married couple we know.” Another opines, “Anybody who is in love and wants to spend the rest of their life together should be able to do it.” [emphasis added in all]

These remarks reflect a common misconception: Same-sex marriage will secure new liberties for homosexuals that have eluded them thus far. This will not happen because no personal liberty is being denied them. Gay couples can already do everything married people do – express love, set up housekeeping, share home ownership, have sex, raise children, commingle property, receive inheritance, and spend the rest of their lives together. It’s not criminal to do any of these things.

Homosexuals can even have a wedding. Yes, it's done all the time. Entire cottage industries have sprung up from Hollywood to the Big Apple serving the needs – from wedding cakes to honeymoons – of same-sex lovers looking to tie the knot.

Gay marriage grants no new freedom, and denying marriage licenses to homosexuals does not restrict any liberty. Nothing stops anyone – of any age, race, gender, class, or sexual preference – from making lifelong loving commitments to each other, pledging their troth until death do them part. They may lack certain entitlements, but not freedoms.

Denying marriage doesn't restrict anyone. It merely withholds social approval from a lifestyle and set of behaviors that homosexuals have complete freedom to pursue without it. A marriage license doesn’t give liberty; it gives respect.

And respect is precisely what homosexual activists long for, as one newly licensed lesbian spouse makes clear: “It was a moving experience after a truly lifelong commitment, to have a government entity say, “Your relationship is valid and important in the eyes of the law.” Another admits, “This is about other people recognizing what we have already recognized with each other for a long time.” And another: “I didn’t start out feeling this way, but that piece of paper, it’s just so important I can’t even put it into words. It’s so important to have society support you.” It’s about society saying you’re recognized as a couple.”

Ironically, heterosexuals have been living together for years enjoying every liberty of matrimony without the “piece of paper.” Suddenly that meaningless piece of paper means everything to homosexuals. Why? Not because it confers liberty, but because it confers legitimacy. Note this telling passage from Time magazine’s “Will Gay Marriage be Legal?”

Ultimately, of course, the battle for gay marriage has always been about more than winning the second-driver discount at the Avis counter. In fact, the individual who has done most to push same-sex marriage – a brilliant 43-year-old lawyer-activist named Evan Wolfson – doesn’t even have a boyfriend. He and the others who brought the marriage lawsuits of the past decade want nothing less than full social equality, total validation – not just the right to inherit a mother-in-law’s Cadillac. As Andrew Sullivan, the (also persistently single) intellectual force behind gay marriage, has written, “Including homosexuals within marriage would be a means of conferring the highest form social approval imaginable.” [emphasis added]

Same-sex marriage is not about civil rights. It’s about validation and social respect. It is a radical attempt at civil engineering using government muscle to strong-arm the people into accommodating a lifestyle many find deeply offensive, contrary to nature, socially destructive, and morally repugnant. Columnist Jeff Jacoby summed it up this way in The Boston Globe:

The marriage radicals have not been deprived of the right to marry – only of the right to insist that a single-sex union is a “marriage.” They cloak their demands in the language of civil rights because it sounds so much better than the truth: They don't want to accept or reject marriage on the same terms that it is available to everyone else. They want it on entirely new terms. They want it to be given a meaning it has never before had, and they prefer that it be done undemocratically by judicial fiat, for example, or by mayors flouting the law. Whatever else that may be, it isn't civil rights.

The Meaning of Marriage

The controversy about same-sex marriage churns principally around the definition of marriage. Activists deny the traditional view, that marriage is about children. Instead, marriage is an ever changing, socially-constructed institution constantly being redefined by society. There is no essential connection with children. Rather, at the core of the enterprise are two people in love.

4. “Marriage is about love.”

Understandably, love is a predominant theme in discussions about marriage. “As long as people love each other,” one person asserted, “it shouldn’t matter whether they are the same sex. What’s important in marriage is love.”13

Initially, this seems hard to deny. In our culture, love is often the immediate motivation for marriage. On reflection, though, it‚s clear that love and marriage don’t always go together.

In fact, they seldom do.

If marriage were about love, then billions of people in the history of the world who thought they were married were not. Most marriages have been arranged. Love may percolate later, but only as a result of marriage, not the reason for it.

Further, if love were the sine qua non of marriage, no „for better or for worse promises would be needed at the altar. Vows aren’t meant to sustain love; they are meant to sustain the union when love wanes. A pledge keeps a family intact not for love, but for the sake of children.

The state doesn’t care if the bride and groom love each other. There are no questions about a couple‚s affections when granting a license. No proof of passion is required. Why? Because marriage isn’t about love.

Yes, love may be the reason some people get married, but it isn't the reason for marriage. It may be a constituent of marriage, but it isn't the purpose of marriage. Something else is.

5. “Marriage is constantly being redefined.”

The definition of marriage has not been in flux in the way people suggest. In fact, marriage itself has not been redefined at all. Because there have been variations on the theme does not mean there has been no theme. From the dawn of civilization marriage has always been between men and women.

There have been changes. Historically some have been denied marriage (e.g., the young, the genetically aberrant, and interracial couples). Others were allowed to marry more than once, either consecutively (divorce and remarriage), or concurrently (polygamy). Spousal rights have altered and traditions have evolved. But marriage has still been marriage. And spouses have always been male and female.

To say something has changed is to say some core thing has remained the same. When an old curtain is changed into a work smock, or an irresponsible bachelor becomes a conscientious dad, something stays the same, the cloth and the man, in these two cases.

In the midst of these obvious changes in marriage, what feature remains the same? What is the essential core that makes marriage distinct from any other relationship? In spite of the variations, spouses have always been male and female. Why? What is unique about this human pairing?

6. “Not all marriages have children.”

Initially it is easy to resist any suggestion that “marriage” and “family” are essentially connected with “offspring.” Clearly, not all families have children. Some marriages are barren, by choice or by design.

This proves nothing, though. Books are written by authors to be read, even if large ones are used as doorstops or discarded ones help ignite campfires. The fact that many lie unread and covered with dust, or piled atop coffee tables for decorative effect doesn’t mean they were not destined for higher purpose.

In the same way, the natural tie of marriage to procreation is not nullified because in some individual cases children are not intended or even possible. Marriage still is what it is even if its essential purpose is never actualized. The exceptions prove the rule, they don’t nullify it. Marriage is intrinsically about and for children.

Ironically, heterosexuals and homosexuals alike confirmed this while lining up to wed at city halls on Valentines Day. “After seven years and the birth of a baby,” the L.A. Times reported, “Robert Manzo and Anna Parker decided to make their union official for 9-month-old Kyle, who they believe should have the legal protection that a marriage gives to a family.”

More than 300 miles away, Kathy Palmer-Lohan stood in line in San Francisco with her partner, Laura, who was seven months pregnant. “We‚re having kids,” Palmer-Lohan said, “and [marriage] gives some formality to the relationship and the family structure.”15

7. “Marriage is a social construction we can redefine as we please.”

What is marriage? There are only two possible kinds of answers to this question: Either marriage and family have a fixed, natural purpose (a natural “teleology”) or they do not. If not, marriage is some kind of social construction, an invention of culture like knickers or bow ties, fashions that change with the times. Marriages defined by convention can be anything culture defines them to be. No particular detail is essential.

It is not possible, however, that marriage is a social construction. Here’s why.

Columnist Dennis Prager has observed, “Every higher civilization has defined marriage as an institution joining members of the opposite sex.” I agree with Prager’s position on marriage, though I take exception with one of his words.

I don't think marriage has been defined by cultures. Rather, I think it has been described by them. The difference in terms is significant. If marriage is defined by culture, then it is merely a construction that culture is free to change when it desires. The definition may have been stable for millennia, yet it is still a convention and therefore subject to alteration. This is, in fact, the argument of those in favor of gay marriage.

The truth is, it is not culture that constructs marriages or the families that marriages begin. Rather, it is the other way around: Marriage and family construct culture. As the building blocks of civilization, families are logically prior to society as the parts are prior to the whole. Bricks aren’t the result of the building because the building is made up of bricks. You must have the first before you can get the second.

Societies are large groups of families. Since families are constituent of culture, cultures cannot define them. They merely observe their parts, as it were, and acknowledge what they have discovered. Society then enacts laws not to create marriage and families according to arbitrary convention, but to protect that which already exists, being essential to the whole.

Why has civilization always characterized families as a union of men and women? Because men and women are the natural source of the children that allow civilized culture to persist. This is the only understanding that makes sense of the definition, structure, legitimacy, identity, and government entitlements of marriage. This alone answers our question, “What is marriage?”

Marriage begins a family. Families are the building blocks of cultures. Families – and therefore marriages – are logically prior to culture.

If the definition of marriage is established by nature, then we have no liberty to redefine it. In fact, marriage itself wouldn’t change at all even if we did. Philosopher Francis Beckwith has wryly observed, “Just because you can eat an ashtray doesn’t make it food.” Linguistic tricks can’t change what nature has already determined something to be. Neither ashtrays nor same-sex marriage provide the nourishment intended by food or families, respectively.

The fact that same-sex couples can legally adopt changes nothing. This, too, subverts the purpose of marriage by robbing families (and children) of a vital ingredient: mothers and fathers. By licensing same-sex marriage, society declares by law that two men or two women are equally suited to raise a child, that mothers and fathers contribute nothing unique to healthy child-rearing. This is self-evidently false. Moms and dads are not interchangeable.

Marriage begins a family. The purpose of family is to produce the next generation. Therefore, family is designed by nature for children. This description alone is consistent with our deepest intuitions, which is why every culture since the birth of time has recognized this. No other characterization fits what societies have been doing for millennia.

Families may fail to produce children, either by choice or by accident, but they are about children, nonetheless. That’s why marriages have always been between men and women; they are the only ones, in the natural state, who have kids.

Government has no interest in affirming any other kind of relationship. It privileges and sustains marriage in order to protect the future of civilization.

Same-sex marriage is radically revisionist. It severs family from its roots, eviscerates marriage of any normative content, and robs children of a mother and a father. This must not happen.

Homosexuality is broadly tolerated in this country. Gays are allowed to pursue their "lifestyles" without reprisal, even to the point of forming committed, monogamous unions. They may not be universally respected or admired, but they have the liberty to live as they choose. This is all they have the right to demand.

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About The Author

Gregory Koukl is founder and president of Stand to Reason, an organization devoted to a thoughtful and engaging defense of classical Christianity in the public square. He is also a radio talk show host and author of Relativism—Feet Firmly Planted in Mid-Air.

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in MA
everything has changed:
crime is everywhere.
people are getting divorced from their opposite sex partners
so they can marry someone of the same sex "just to try it out."
a man is trying to marry his neighbor's dog (if men can marry
men and women can marry women why can't I marry Harley?)
Butch is trying to marry the same neighbor's cat.
Christianity is outlawed.
no one is allowed to adopt except gay couples.
we still have the most stable marriage rate in the U.S.

btw, one is true, the rest is sarcasm.


oops
Changed Harley to Butch.
Did I mention day is night and right is wrong and Romney was governor?
What did you expect??????

Heterophobes
The heterophobes will again be here to level their hate-speech against being straight, normal, and Christian.

Marriage to animals
If you marry a dog and decide to take her (or him) out to eat, be sure to get in the "no Smoking" section of the restaurant. You wouldn't want to get the animal rights people upset.

Marriage from the purely secular side

Legally speaking, civil marriage should not be thought of as a right, but as a mutually beneficial contract made between the state and those entering into marriage. Society has a vested interest in promoting the creation of high quality replacement members and has no compelling reason to contract with classes of people that cannot or likely will not hold up their end of such a bargain.

In exchange for the decades long commitment and sacrifice made to provide the lasting and loving family framework necessary to raise civilized, productive children, society agrees to provide the marriage couple with certain related compensatory benefits. Generally speaking, same sex marriage provides no procreative value to society, so society has no compelling reason to automatically enter into marriage contracts with same sex couples.

There simply is no basis (constitutional or otherwise) for an unqualified legal right to state sanctioned marriage. It is a contract and, like all valid contracts, must provide at least the reasonable expectation of mutual benefit to all parties (i.e., that includes the state).

IMO, all people who have made a good faith attempt to live up to their side of the marriage bargain with society should be eligible for state marriage benefits. This includes heterosexual couples who are unintentionally childless as well as older people remarrying after at least having made a good faith attempt (normally successfully) at producing and raising civilized children. Childless couples by choice slip through on the coattails of productive couples partially because they are few in number and are not an obvious slap in the face of marriage (hard to tell them apart from the unintentionally childless).

What consenting adults (in particular, same sex couples) do privately or legally contract between themselves should be of no special interest to the state, but same sex couples should not have the right to bind the state into a one-sided marriage contract.

Homosexuals seem to think that if they were to legally marry it would only involve themselves and their partners. This is the root of their flawed thinking.

The problem is, legal marriage is not just a contract between the two people wishing to marry. It can't be emphasized enough that it is, in fact, fundamentally a contract between the couple and the community and must provide a realistic expectation of benefit to all parties. From the state's point of view, homosexual marriage would offer little or no return (no children) at only negative costs (state benefits that must be provided and, more importantly, devaluation of the meaning of marriage to normal people, i.e. that marriage is primarily for the benefit of society's children).

You homosexuals out there, go ahead and call yourself married between yourselves, among your friends, and at your place of worship (be they willing). Enter into your hearts' desires of private contracts (the law should not hinder this), and do whatever you want in private, but don't expect to be able to force me, your neighbors and community (i.e., the state) to enter into your private contracts and call it marriage.

Think well - see clearly. :)
____________________________

1) The stability and self perpetuation of society via the fabric of the family and the creation of enough quality children are the raisons d'etre for marriage.

2) Homosexual marriage would slightly detract from normal marriage by marginally reducing the resources and funding that would otherwise be available to support normal marriage.

3) Above all, equating homosexual marriage to normal marriage would debase the meaning of marriage to normal people, i.e. that marriage is primarily for the production and benefit of society's children (point 1 above).

4) Generally speaking, since homosexual marriage would provide no net benefit to society (especially procreative), society has no compelling reason to automatically enter into marriage contracts with same-sex couples (i.e., there would be no justification for homosexual marriage even if it did not harm or detract from traditional marriage).

Abolish Marrage
Seriously, it is time to abolish marrage outright. The state has no business negotiating private contracts between private individuals.

> For the first time in the history of
> civilization a culture will declare that
> neither mothers nor fathers are essential
> components of parenthood; neither makes a
> uniquely valuable contribution.

We have already lost this battle when the sperm banks were allowed to impregnate unmarried women. We lost this battle with the end of the term "bast-rd" and the acceptance of the "single mother" - arguably the worship of her.

As Margaret Marshal wrote in the _Goodridge_ decision (MA Gay Marrage case), society makes no distinction between married and unmarried couples as regarding their children. Hence marrage is now moot.

A marrage license used to be a license to create children. Those who created children in the absence of such a license were subject to social scorn and often criminal liability. Furthermore, a woman who got pregnant without husband was on her own - none of this child support stuff.

Now, well, marrage is moot. The mother is the sole parent of importance and the state will chase the "deadbeat dad" to the ends of the earth. Bigamy, Poligamy, these openly exist today -- said deadbeat dads with multiple children by different women are de-facto poligamists. And what about the sperm donors?

So I propose that the *state* abolish marrage. You can have any contract you want to have with anybody or any thing. Marrage will be defined as being a RELIGIOUS rite and I trust that the Protestants and Catholics and Jews and even Moslems can get together and copyright a specific religious standard of marrage (e.g. what we always thought it was).

So if you want to get married you have to meet the criteria of your Minister or Priest or Rabbi or Iman and if you want to join the free love commune you can do that too. This is a free country - the mistake we made was letting Justices of the Peace do marrages.

And one other thing: Anna Nicole Smith is the icon of Gen X feminism. The world revolved around her and spun her into an early grave. There is a generation of women in their 30s & 40s who got whatever they desired because of their (now fleeting) youth and beauty -- women who are increasingly irrelevant as younger women enter the stage. A certain 43-year-old astronot comes to mind on this....

And I won't even get into the aspect of _Roe_ on all of this...

And one final irony -- the word "bast-rd" is "unacceptable" if spelled out, but the concept is honored in polite society. Dan Quayle was right, just 20 years before his time...

Government is absurd
The thing that is the most absurd about this debate is the government. Marriage is not a civil ceremony, it is a religious ceremony. Why does the State need to recognize marriage at all?

To put it another way, why does the State give people a tax break based on whom they copulate with? The gay marriage issue is actually a reflection of the marriage tax. The solution is to get government out of issueing marriage certificates, not expanding or restricting who gets them.

There used to be this idea that all people are created equal. Marriage laws and discounts for married couples is actually a form of privilege. And, like any privilege, those who don't get it want it for themselves. Rather than debating who should get the privilege, the best solution is always to remove the privileges.

As on so many other issues, both the Left and the Right lack a political solution to what is a simple problem. Both speak volumes, but do not listen to one another at all.

We have in this country what could be called a "financial Jim Crow" system, where people are treated differently because of their age, membership in clubs, employer, marriage status, veteran status, etc. The government and both parties are equally complicit and guilty in perpetuating this stupidity of privileges. We have all been indoctrinated long before we were educated, and even the churches are failing to shed light and wisdom on the situation, because they are a recipient of unnecessary privileges, too.

http://www.behappyandfree.com

Christians Against Gay Marriage
Why aren't Christians as fervently opposed to remarriage after divorce? Some churches that are opposed to gay marriage have absolutely no qualms about people getting divorced for irreconcileable differences and then remarried despite the words of Jesus.

Matthew 5:32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

Heterophobes
Heterophobes want to redefine society in their own image. Having lived in a gay dominate college town for two decades, I have yet to see an example of "gay committed couples [who] add a bit of stability". The have their "commitment ceremonies" and usually within less than 2 years they are with others.

The Author is Right
The issue of same sex marriage is similar in its detrimemtal effect on society as the ERA would have been.

It seems like such a simple thing if one looks at it superficially, but if one looks at the repercussions, it is as serious as a heart attack.

This is why the Left has taken to assigning some of their advocates of various issues to distract you from the whole picture by trying to get you to look at inconsequential aspects, and say "see, see! this is no big deal!"

They work in a sort of "tag team," like a snake oil show where one guy distracts the crowd with sleight of hand while his accomplices go through the crowd, picking pockets.

Every time you hear some activist saying; "how does this hurt you and your marriage?," you can be certain that he is trying to distract you from his real intent, like a magician waving a silk scarf so that you don't notice him pocketing the coin.

The real intent of the Left is to tear down society until it is unrecognizable. Homosexual activists are just another group of willing "useful idiots" in the bigger scheme of the Marxists whose final goal it to create a Socialist state here in America.

What Defines a Marriage?

.....Greg ...

.....According to the Catholic church ...unless a couple has been "married" by a priest ...then they are not married in the eyes of God ...so in effect ...a couple married by a civil authority has entered into a civil union that has the force of a legal contract in a court of law ...the fact that this union is called a "marriage' pays deference to the religious rite without conferring religious sanction ...

.....Marriage is a religious rite ...all else are Civil Unions .....COLOSSUS

Mountain Rose,
This may sound harsh, but I actually mean it with all due respect.

Your arguments are straw man. You are creating an imaginary liberal plot, without any supporting evidence whatsoever for your claims. It sounds as if you are simply stumped by the question, "How does this hurt you and your marriage?" and, since you don't have a good comeback, are simply creating a conspiracy in your own mind, and asking others to blindly believe you.

Try this on for size. Read the following quote from the article:

> For the first time in the history of
> civilization a culture will declare that
> neither mothers nor fathers are essential
> components of parenthood; neither makes a
> uniquely valuable contribution.

Then answer my question:

What, exactly, is a uniquely valuable contribution made by a mother, or a by a father?

I mean this most sincerely, and I have follow-up questions once I know what people think about it.

Thank you!

Martha


Neither side convinces me
Like other discussions of the issue, Koukl's column has failed to convince me that the fate of civilization hinges on keeping legal marriage strictly a male-female affair. I think the social effects of allowing a comparatively small number of same-sex couples to have the benefits of legal marriage would be pretty much a wash. It might make the individuals involved happy. I don't think it would make society crumble or destroy the institution of male-female marriage. (I also don't think it would usher in a glorious new era of social tolerance and responsible monogamous behavior on the part of gays, as advocates of gay marriage sometimes claim.)

On the other hand, the gay-marriage advocates also have failed to convince me that gay marriage is a "constitutional right" or that they suffer horrible, unendurable oppression because they are denied legal marriage. I think the issue should be decided by voters and legislators, not courts. If gay marriage came up for a public referendum I would probably vote for it, since as I said I don't see any great harm in it. (In fact, I did vote against an anti-gay-marriage constitutional amendment in my state.) But if voters continue to reject gay marriage (as they did in my state) I think the gay advocates should accept majority rule and work on convincing more people to share their views, rather than trying to do an end run around democracy through activist courts.

One other note -- while I don't totally agree (or disagree) with their cause, I think the Washington state initiative to dissolve marriages that don't produce children was a clever bit of legislative satire on the part of the gay activists. It does confront the idea that gay marriage is bad because producing children is the be-all and end-all of marriage.


Marriage isn't about love?
"The state doesn’t care if the bride and groom love each other. There are no questions about a couple's affections when granting a license. No proof of passion is required. Why? Because marriage isn’t about love."

What a stupid world gay-marriage foes live in, where marriage isn't about love, and homosexuals are encouraged to marry members of the opposite sex. I'm also having trouble remembering any questions regarding children when granting a license. If the state doesn't care if a couple loves each other, then you must admit that they don't care if they have kids or not.

Martha- just because you don't
agree with me does not mean I am not correct in what I say.

The contributions made mothers as apposed to fathers has to do with the INBORN differences between the genders and the innate need for a child to have contact with a parent of the same gender and one of the opposite gender, in order to have healthy, well adjusted relationships with each.

If you don't believe that there is any difference between males and females, I recommend that you spend a day at the Zoo in the Springtime. If that doesn't change your mind, then I can't help you.

It takes a lot of deconstructing and reprogramming in an Orwellian University to wipe out the common sense of human beings and have them accept nonsense as truth.

Oh, and incidentally... you don't need to know that you are being used in order for the Marxists to find you a useful idiot.

refreshingly intelligent argument
to WRH Bill:

It's nice to hear someone actually support their ideas with details. I'm inclined to agree with your points, even though I would like to see state-granted marriage licenses for all legally consenting adults. While I agree that lack of licensure is not "horrible, unendurable oppression," I also think that it is completely unnecessary to withhold it, and doing so can't help to increase rational thought toward a small and still too frequently mistreated segment of society.

My honest question: People often mention "activist courts" and judges "legislating from the bench" (you didn't, but you do believe that this issue belongs in the legislature). Can you help me understand when it *is* appropriate for the judicial branch to protect the rights of minorities? For example, were there good reasons for the courts to be involved in the CRM in the sixties?

p.s. I live in a state where it would be legal to fire me for _being gay_. This is something I consider far more pressing that gay marriage rights.

Martha
If you can be fired for being gay, maybe you should move to West Hollywood, California and stop tormenting yourself.


Great outline!
This is the best, most cogent refutation of Leftist arguments against traditional marriage, that I have seen printed, anywhere.

Email this to your friends, print it out and tack it up on your bulletin boards!

Martha
Mountain Rose's argument is not a "straw man" argument. The evidence is abundant but obviously you are ignorant. Communism can only win when the society it has chosen to dominate is in chaos and enough people are dissatisfied. Since the early 1900's the left has attempted to replace our democratic society with their socialist "ideal".

Every action, program, etc. they have devised has had the effect of creating poverty (both temporal and spiritual), death, and destruction. The chaos and mayhem rampant on our streets today is directly attributable to the Left. It is what they desire which is why they champion the criminal, the pedophile, the morally bankrupt, drug abusers, rapists, etc. It is also why they are always on the side of our enemies- those who hate freedom.

You're absolutely right,
Mountain Rose, my agreement or disagreement with you does validate or invalidate your point. What invalidates it, in my opinion, is your lack of evidenciary support. To simply throw out a liberal talking point, such as "How does this hurt you and your marriage," and then debunk it by simply claiming that it is a liberal trick of distraction says nothing constructive or convincing whatsoever. I was simply (and I think quite politely) asking you to consider backing up your claims.

I was also asking you to answer a particular question, which you attempted to do. However, you also added quite a few extraneous barbs about universities and such. As a matter of fact, you assumed quite wrongly about me. I do, in fact, believe that there are innate differences between the sexes. I found myself quite at odds with points to the contrary while I was in school for training in special education, although I would strongly suggest that university professors are usually open to thoughts contrary to their own (if they are well supported).

For that matter, it may interest you to know that I stayed out of the traditional work force to provide primary care to our three children all the way through elementary school. I think Lawrence Summers was actually right that innate ability may play a factor in chosen careers and majors, as well as traditional roles and interests -- and I don't think he meant that women are stupid. I'm a mostly liberal, partly conservative, "freethinker" who likes to read from both sides, in order to maintain as much objectivity as possible. My goal, when I write, is to get people to think a little harder about the other side's arguments, and to think for themselves to a greater extent. I also wish that more people would be better read when it comes to logic and rhetoric. I wonder if you, for example, even understood my point about the straw man argument. I mean that in the kindest way possible.

As for your argument regarding innate differences between the sexes, obviously I agree. However, I fail to see how a *general* difference between the sexes is an argument against same-sex marriage anymore than it would be an argument against in vitro fertilization or, for that matter, single-parent headed families or fathers as primary care-givers. The problem with the argument that mothers and fathers make unique contributions is that it can only be argued as a general fact, not as specifically correct or enforceable in every instance. In our country, we allow for differences of expression in families. Some mothers are more suited for the corporate treadmill, for example, while their mates may be quite excellent and nurturing stay-at-home dads. I don't think we'd want to start legislating those details, so I question whether it is a valid argument against same-sex marriage.

Feel free to counter, and I hope you can hear my suggestions in the respectful tone they are intended.

Martha

mahatma-mama and others
"The chaos and mayhem rampant on our streets today is directly attributable to the Left." What are you talking about? Can you
walk down the streets where you live? I hope so, if not tell
us where you live and why it is so unsafe.

Do you live in the sarcasMA that I described in the first two
posts. btw, that was made up - not true.


I am never convinced that gay marriage will ever harm marriage
between man and a woman.
I am also not against polygamous or polyandrous marriages.
All of these should make for a more stable society as long as
people live and let live.

I am against incestuous and bestial marriages. And always will
be.

If gay marriage is a socialist plot it is also a libertarian plot.
Finally, we've seen the connection between these two groups!

Wow...
...and while I write what I consider to be a polite and careful response, Mountain Rose is posting a sophomoric jab about moving to West Hollywood.

Oops. I'm not gay, just informing you of what could be done to me if I was. My point was in direct agreement with someone whose ideas are more conservative than my own, that point being: lack of gay marriage rights do not necessary amount to horrible oppression.

Martha

Fathers are important!
> What, exactly, is a uniquely valuable
> contribution made by a mother, or a
> by a father?

A father shows a son what it means to be a man and shows a daughter the difference between the playboy with fancy toys and the man who stays with the woman after child conception.

A father shows a son the difference between competition and bullying, between strength and tyranny. Read _Children of the Corn_ (written by fatherless Stephen King) if you need a better example.

And there was a case years back somewhere in Africa where they only had young elephants because of poaching. And the young elephants were tearing up the countryside and generally destroying everything. So they brought in some older elephants from away and solved the behavior problem.

I am not saying that all fathers are good fathers but then I am not saying that all homosexuals are child molesting perverts, either.

There is a direct relationship between the loss of fathers and hooliganism, between the single mother and the ill effects of the "welfare" community, between the end of fathers taking sons hunting and gun violence.

The libertarian-leaning Pioneer Institute did a study a while back that found one of the biggest problems in public housing to be the fact that the single mothers traded in their boyfriends every 17-18 months for a replacement. Fathers are fathers for life...

I don't care if it is the lesbian marrage or the single woman and the sperm bank or the woman who dumped her husband as an attempt to 'discover herself' -- there is no moral difference between these women and men who beat up women. Both will reside in a particuarly vile portion of hell.

And for Republicans?
> Martha wrote: p.s. I live in a state where
> it would be legal to fire me for _being gay_.
> This is something I consider far more
> pressing that gay marriage rights.

I live in a state where I HAVE BEEN fired for being a Republican. So, like, ummm???????

obviously I am ignorant
It always strikes me as humorous that people seem to believe that, by simply stating that someone is too ignorant to see the obvious, they have trumped all and won the argument.

To be fair, I am not the world's most knowledgeable in terms of rhetoric. Straw man may not have been the best description, although I think it is accurate to some degree. Begging the question may have been a more appropriate characterization. (I would be very happy to hear from those of you old-fashioned debaters where I might improve.)

In any case, the hypothetical question posed, "How does [gay marriage] hurt you or your marriage?", was never addressed by the poster (Mountain Rose). She was simply denouncing liberalism, communism, and socialism in general -- not sticking to the subject at all.

And before someone tries to "wise me up," I know I am expecting a lot for this forum. Here's a toast to higher expectations! I'm a teacher. I like people to think hard and do their homework. Sue me.

importance of fathers
Pirate,

I agree with you that fathers are important. My point is not that mothers and fathers do not _generally_ serve unique and invaluable roles. My point is that we do not want to start legislating those roles at the micro level, since there are those who find a way to successfully raise children without a father or without a mother. It would get pretty sticky, I think. Short of legislating two-parent, opposite sex partners for all parenting scenarios, I wonder how the argument is a valid one.

Martha

oops
correction: "lack of gay marriage rights does not necessarily amount to horrible oppression."

[subject-verb disagreement drives me nuts. :)]

addition: But no legal prohibitions against firing someone for the stated reason that they are gay? That's oppression, pure and simple.

by the way: Pirate, was your dismissal for being Republican a *stated* reason? Big difference, I think. I find it hard to believe that we have any states allowing that in a legal sense. (However, I'm still appalled if you were fired for such a reason!)

I live a half hour drive from
West Hollywood. It is a beautiful city.

I was sincere when I said that if someone is gay and living in an area where they feel they are not treated well, I would suggest West Hollywood.

I realize now that you are not gay.

If you were really pro-gay, you would not consider it a "jab." Besides, I have straight friends who live there and they seem to be happy.

Regarding the often used question "how does gay marriage hurt you and your marriage," of course, the answer for most people would be, "it doesn't hurt me and my marriage."

But the real question is "WHAT IS GOOD FOR SOCIETY?"

Every Leftist pet project that I have ever seen has been detrimental to society, causing chaos, ignorance, poverty, division between the races and the sexes, child neglect, formation of gangs, and on and on.

Some people think that the Left is just stupid and can't see that their programs don't work.

I don't give them that excuse.

When a Capitalistic free society works well, with everyone propering, the Socialists have no chance of replacing our system with theirs.

But when they stir up discontent, then they have sufficient chaos to convince people that the system isn't working.

Take gay people for example. There is no other demographic group that is more materially sucessful than gays.

If you were to pay a visit to West Hollywood, the self-proclaimed first officially gay city in the world, you will see exactly how prosperous they are.

So you really have to reach to give them something to get stirred up about. What do straight people have that they don't? NOTHING! They have more than most straight people.

Oh yes. Except for marriage.

Until a few years ago, I never heard a single gay say they wished they could be married. Suddenly, after a concentrated effort on the part of the Left, they all imagine they can't live without it.

This is very weird, especially considering the on-going effort that the Left has been making to convince young women that they have no need for marriage.

I don't think that this is just a silly inconsistancy of the Left because they are too stupid to notice the hypocracy of their efforts.

I think it is deliberate.

I Repeat

.....TH...Marriage is a Religious Rite...

.....If you believe in the "Seperation of Church and State" then you must accept that Municipalities cannot issues marriage licenses ...what they are issuing are licenses for civil unions no matter what they want to call them ...if the "marriage" is not performed as a religious ceremony ...then it is not a marriage .....COLOSSUS

just to clarify
I didn't consider your statement a jab _because_ you were assuming that I was gay, but because it had all the characteristics of an insult: a quick "go live where you are wanted" kind of statement. I think most people would take it that way, in the form it was written. So I disagree with your statement that, if I were really pro-gay, I wouldn't take it as a jab. And I also believe you that you didn't mean it that way. Electronic communication can be easily misinterpreted.

Your point that the question is really "What is good for society?" is well taken and I agree with you that it is the more appropriately worded question.

Some of the rest of your arguments are a little hard for me to follow, though, since you really broaden the subject to include "all Leftist programs." I really don't think the world is divided quite so sharply as you seem to see it. That is probably related to the fact that I see myself as partlly liberal and partly conservative in my thinking.

As for your arguments specific to gay marriage:

"If you were to pay a visit to West Hollywood, the self-proclaimed first officially gay city in the world, you will see exactly how prosperous they are."

This is not solid evidence. You need information from the whole country to support your claim. You also need to separate gay and lesbian statistics. Men make more money than women, so two men sharing income(s) are definitely going to have a higher total income, on average, than a man and woman sharing income(s). In addition, it does not follow that financial prosperity necessarily means that gay people have everything that straight people have. For one thing, if you are married, do you expect that you'll ever have to argue the right to be by your spouse's side in the hospital?


"Until a few years ago, I never heard a single gay say they wished they could be married. Suddenly, after a concentrated effort on the part of the Left, they all imagine they can't live without it."

Would you consider the possibility that, until fairly recently, gay marriage was considered an impossible goal, so why talk about it? Or maybe the fact that gay marriage has become more acceptable among churched people has something to do with the increased interest in marriage / commitment ceremonies? I would suspect very strongly that gay people would, as a group, become more interested in faith and religious symbols when they are being welcomed by the church and sent the message that "You can be faithful *and* gay," instead of "Come back to God, sinner. Leave your evil ways."

Just a few thoughts to consider.

baseballdoc
Marriage is relgious right, but that does not mean it it not also a civil right. If you wish for municipalitites to issue documents sanctioning civil unions and not marriage then you are also asking for government to reduce all and any beneifits for marriage.
If it looks like a tree, smells like a tree, and behaves like a tree.... it is most likely a tree.

Marriage is a right
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=388&invol=1

Just for clarification.

These statutes also deprive the Lovings of liberty without due process of law in violation of the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men.

Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival. Skinner v. Oklahoma, 316 U.S. 535, 541 (1942). See also Maynard v. Hill, 125 U.S. 190 (1888). To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discriminations. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State.

These convictions must be reversed.

It is so ordered.

Gay Agenda
About 15 years ago the gay agenda was permision to do what they wanted behind closed doors. As an American I agree with this fundamental freedom. Sodomy laws are wrong and illegal.
The homo sexual community just wanted to be left alone. They have sence changed their agenda to include forceful acceptence of themselves and their values on the American population.
Gay marriage is wrong because the people do not want it and it it not protected under any Constitutional law. It is a leftist ideal that is continually and overwhelmingly regected by the people of this great country. The left and homo sexual lobbies fight toth and nail to block votes and admendments to state constitutions that regect same-sex marriage. This is why it is wrong and dangerous.
For those left loving people reading this response, this is why many of us are no longer lefties. You are not representing the people you are representing your ideals. This is relgious idealism and it is not protected by the governing laws of this country. As long as people are allowed to take advantage of liberty and think freely and clearly agendas such as this will not smell test.

drivebyposting
dude re-read what you wrote. It is about denying marriage based on race not sex.
If you are correct in your interpetataion you have to conclude that poligamy and incest are also fundamental rights.

Martha: I think that the message of the
church should be what the Bible says about sin, repentance and forgiveness.

Anything less than that short-changes the sinner, and leaves them outside a real relationship with God.

Until we acknowledge our sins what can we repent about?

And until we repent, there is no forgiveness.

I would give you chapter and verse, but I have a client coming in a couple of minutes.

I am sure someone out there will help me out as to what God has to say on the subject. My opinion is worthless, because I did not design the system, I just point it out.

Lip Service
This arguement will be moot in 30 years anyway.

The current generation of teenagers is being raised by television and not by their parents.

Which is evident in the polls that show that the majority of people under 30 support gay marriage.

All these state amendments banning them will be overturned in due time.

The problem is what is known as lip service.

I bring this up because of a story the San Fransisco Chronicle is running on its front page.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/02/11/MNG7VO2LUV1.DTL

"So it's not accurate to say that abstinence is the value of the United States when it's not held by 95 percent of the population."

That's right, 95% of the population has pre-marital sex which is strongly forbidden in the Bible. More so than almost any other proclamation in the Bible. Virgins are rampant. Jesus was born to one. Unless only 5% of the population is Christian, conservatives are just as guilty. Is anyone arguing that pre-marital sex is destroying marriage today? The argument against pre-marital sex today is not tradition, religion and the impact on family, it is pregnancy and STD. Avoid pre-marital sex because you might get pregnant or have an STD. Because conservatives have left out God decrees it is bad for the family, God will not be happy.

Absitence laws will never happen. Strong arguments such as the one put forth here about pre-marital sex should be more rampant with respect to damaging the family.

No fault divorce has resulted in 30% of children living in divorced homes. Somehow I do not think there is any evidence that same-sex marriage will have even 1/10th the impact on children (3%).

Here is a hypothectical question to ponder.

Given the hetrosexual population is 90% of the total, would the energy spent on fighting same-sex marriage have been better spent fighting pre-marital sex?

Where are the 29 states passing amendments banning pre-marital sex because of the impact on the family, tradition, etc.?

Is the Bible a smorgasborg where one get's to pick and choose? A close reading of the Bible will tell you just how important virginity is to marriage.

Conservatives today are giving a lot of lip service to tradition. Yet when 95% of kids today are having pre-marital sex, the question must be asked how genuine are these questions? How serious should the conservatives be taken when clearly with matters that involve them directly they do as they will.

Are we just persecuting gays because we've given up on the fact that 95% of the population practices pre-marital sex but the gays are a small enough minority the battle can be "won"?

Still????
The right-wing of the GOP is still trying to breath life into this issue?

It's over, folks. The gays and lesz will have civil unions and absolutely nothing in our daily lives will change.

My 48-year marriage will remain in tact and my husband will still control the remote.


This Issue
..was brought by homosexual fundamentelists who wanted to sue same-sex marriage into law.

drivebyposting
You are not taking into account that the Left is not having enough babies to replace themselves.

The children that the Left successfully brainwashes will tend to abort their babies and get STDs rendering them sterile, while conservatives will continue having decent size families.

Plus, now the conservatives are on to the game of the Left and are working to take back education.

So in thirty years, the Leftists will be in old folks homes and the children of conservatives will be running the show.

Too bad!

Boo hoo!

what the church should say
Thanks, Mountain Rose, but it probably isn't worthwhile to give me chapter and verse. I'm probably far more well-versed in scripture, and have all kinds of texts and locations mostly memorized.

My point actually had nothing to do with what the church _should_ provide as a message. I was simply giving an alternate explanation for why there might be increased interest in gay marriage rights. The fact that the religious landscape _has_ changed (whether or not it should have) may indeed have affected the lives and interests of gay people as a group. (As opposed to the theory that gay people just suddenly wanted marriage because "The Left" started pushing the agenda in order to crumble our society and introduce Marxism. Not so in line with Occam's Razor, to my mind.)

If you'd like to discuss what the bible says or what the church "ought" to say, I suppose we could do that...but I'm starting to run short on time, too.

It's been nice chatting with you, though. Thanks for the opportunity to practice my thinking skills.

Does homo-marriage hurt your marriage?

Just because something doesn't harm you directly doesn't mean that it does not harm the common good and thereby do you an indirect harm.

Homosexuals seem to think that if they were to legally marry it would only involve themselves and their partners. This is at the root of their flawed thinking.

The problem is, legal marriage is not just a contract between the two people wishing to marry. It can't be emphasized enough that it is, in fact, fundamentally a contract between the couple and the community and must provide a realistic expectation of benefit to all parties. From the community's point of view, homosexual marriage would offer little or no return (no children) at only negative costs (state benefits that must be provided and, more importantly, devaluation of the meaning of marriage to normal people, i.e. that marriage is primarily for the benefit of society's children).

Quoting Mr. Right:

Strong marriages are the building blocks of society. You only need look at the social devastation caused by weak marriages and the havoc wreaked on children as a result. Strong marriages produce strong, self-reliant children. Weak marriages or no marriages produce children who are more likely to be in every kind of trouble known to society. The underlying cause of the problems with marriage today are the narrow self-interest of far too many married folks and their lack of commitment to anything other than themselves. Weak marriages, with or without children, are destructive to strong, free societies and lend themselves to government takeover of functions normally provided within families. Social Security, Medicare, welfare, ADC - all of these are government services that enslave people. Strong families negate the need for these government services.

Gays are by nature narcissistic. You will note that many of the arguments for gay marriage focus on rights like "partner benefits." In other words, their question is not "What can I provide for my spouse?" but "What can we get that we aren't getting now?" A good marriage is about giving, not getting.

If one is building a brick wall, good bricks are required. There can always be a few bad bricks and the wall still retain its structural integrity. But when the norm is lousy bricks, the wall will not stand. Heteros have screwed up a lot of marriages. They are bad bricks. Allowing gay marriage which is by the very nature of homosexuality going to be a weak marriage, will only increase the number of bad bricks. At what point do we tacitly approve the collapse of the wall? We would be better served to increase the strength of the existing institution by making marriage a more serious commitment and making divorce more difficult and by demanding much better treatment of children by parents - in other words demanding a higher level of commitment.

Your notion that gay marriage won't affect anyone outside the marriage is pure sophistry. Why not add more questions.

How would society be harmed by allowing 3 to 8 people in a marriage?

How would society be harmed by allowing partner benefits to animals?

How would society be harmed by allowing single parents to sell their children to the highest bidder under the notion that anyone willing to pay must love them.

How would society be harmed by allowing 10 year olds to marry?

Why is it...
Why is it that one can burn the American flag with impunity *but* would be arrested for burning the Rainbow flag?

So much for equality...

the C.S. Lewis Solution
In "Mere Christianity," C.S. Lewis makes a proposal that would resolve a lot of this conflict. He proposes that there be two kinds of marriage. One would be a civil marriage, the other a religious (although he says "Christian") marriage. The former would be conducted by government, the latter by a church. Everyone, he ways, would be able to tell (presumably by means of documentation, though he doesn't get this specific) by which procedure a couple had been married.

If (and I agree with those who've questioned this) there is any justification for government involvement in marriage, then marriage could be defined by law (which means it would be defined by means of the political process). As for church or religious marriage, then presumably any church could impose whatever requirements it wanted to on marriage.

Also, in his refutation of the "interrracial marriage" issue, Koukl writes that "skin color is morally trivial." But that's precisely the point. The laws against miscegnation were based on the widespread and legally sanctioned belief that skin color was NOT "morally trivial." Why do we now think it IS morally trivial? Because all sorts of horrible liberal activists and judges made decisions that it was, and most (obviously, not all) of us have acquiesced to the power of the liberal state. In other words, Koukl hasn't even come close to spiking the parallel drawn by advocates of gay marriage between the prohibition on white/black marriages and that on gay marriages.


Donaldddddd- if all of the things
you mentioned are so bloody important, then why is the Left making such an energetic effort to convince heterosexual couples to not get married?

And why, pray tell, were they so excited about the bogus statistics about 51% of "women" living without a man(including 15 year-old-girl and elderly widows)?

Why aren't they spending equal time convincing young women that they desperately need a father for their children for the same reasons as they are telling gays that they need to marry a man.

I think this inconsistancy is so obvious that it couldn't have been overlooked.
........................

(Q) Instead, go back and think what is accomplished if these conflicting issues are "won" by the Left?

Tick tock, tick tock, tick tock...ennnnnt!

(A) Of course, traditional marriage is changed to the point where it is unrecognizable.
.......................

(Q) Now, why would someone who cares about society want to do that?

Tick tock, tick tock, tick tock...ennnnnt!

(A) The answer is, of course, the person who is simultaneously promoting both ideas and destroying marriage DOESN'T care about society as we know it.
........................

(Q) Instead, he wants to tear it down and replace it with what?

Tick tock, tick tock, tick tock...ennnnnt!

(A) Since most of the people who are promoting these ideas at the same time are Socialists, it is clear that they want to replace traditional American culture with a socialistic, and perhaps even Marxist society.

unnatural
the essence of "sodimites" marrying is their method of "making love"/having sexual relations. please describe for us your process, then convince us why it is not unnatural.

why does your goal of performing an unnatural sexual behavior require you to be married. your behavior can be done without being married. you have already accomplished your goal. haven't you.
thank you
gary

Thought police are coming
I fix roller coasters and I'll guarantee you there are government laws as to what is allowed and what practices are not. Our government is now chicken to apply our commonsense description of what a marriage is. When Mom and Pop set junior into a roller coaster, the government protects that kid from danger. And you know where this is leading. Those kids about to be born and those picked off the shelf of an orphanage don't seem to stand a prayer of a chance of being protected now.
And if I protest...? "They" will be after me. Marriage is an institution; it can not be redefined! If you fudge the rules, people get hurt.
Please don't gripe; the little ones will thank you.

Besides West Hollywood there is
Wilton Manors, Fla:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilton_Manors,_Florida

Every time the gays "take over" a neighborhood, it becomes more prosperous, because gays have more money to throw around.

And I mean both gay men AND women.

The notion that lesbians make less money than gay men is nonsense.

Lesbians tend to gravitate toward male dominated jobs and because they generally don't have children, they are able to work as hard and as consistantly as a man, and compete with them.

The real reason why women average out to make less than men is that there are many who choose to avoid work altogher while they raise their children, or work part time, or choose employment that will allow them to schedule their work hours around their family.

As a woman who never had children, I was able to do the corporate thing, working 60-80 hour weeks. I was able to make a 6-figure income, the same as the men because I played the same game the men did. And that was without a college degree! (I wish I had that income now!)

People want to feel sorry for gays, for some reason, but I know a lot of them and see them as wealthy, well educated, well connected and powerful, and do not feel sorry for them at all.

If a gay guy wants his boyfriend to visit him in the hospital, he can draw up paperwork to that effect.

And if he is worried about getting on his friend's health insurance policy, why doesn't he do what I do: Buy his own friggin' insurance!

Excellent Article
In Washington, the homosexual lobby is once again using Mafioso tactics to get it's own agenda across. They are the ones forcing their lifestyle choice down America's throat and demanding they be accepted.

In California, the VAST majority of voters stated that marriage was between a man and a woman (Proposition 22). The homosexual community would not accept this and has challenged it on every level, including using the liberal judges here in this state to try and overturn what 80% of Californians voted for.

Marriage is the building block on which our society is founded. Marriage is between a man and woman. I mean, come on now - you don't have to take an anatomy class to see how things are supposed to work together.

We are ripe for another Civil War over issues like this and abortion. It will destroy our country from the inside out and leave us vulnerable to our enemies.

God help us!

Martha- is it the horse or the cart?
Did gays (1) join churches, (2) get changed by religion, and (3) THEN want to get married, as you suggest?

Or was it more like this order:

(1) Purpose to change society by any means necessary

(2) Join churches with the intention of changing them in order to change society.

(3) Work at changing congregant's notion of what their religion says about homosexuality.

(4) Try to force society to accept "gay marriage" in order to make homosexuality seem more mainstream.

I think that the later was the more likely scenario, and more in keeping with my memory of their activities.

Oh yes, and so solly challie, but the true believers have been leaving mainstream denominations because they have become apostate churches after being taken over by the left.

Sayonara!

You see, because we know what scripture really says, we are not fooled by Leftist bait and switch. This is why the Left hates the Christian Right so much: because we can see right through their subterfuges!

Meanwhile, back at the Ranch
Heterosexuals have given up on the morality of pre-marital sex as indicated below.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070210/ap_on_re_us/living_in_sin;_ylt=Asm9IV4FnexU4QBgz_4RkoHMWM0F

By DALE WETZEL, Associated Press Writer Fri Feb 9, 7:22 PM ET

BISMARCK, N.D. - Living together out of wedlock would be downgraded from a sex crime to fraud, and then only if the couple claims to be married, under a proposal that passed the state Senate on Friday.

The bill was changed from an outright repeal of the state's anti-cohabitation law. The amended proposal would make the false representation of marital status a misdemeanor crime for a man and woman who live together.

Cohabiting couples who do not falsely claim marriage would not be penalized.

The proposal now goes to the state House.

Since statehood, North Dakota has barred unmarried couples from "openly and notoriously" living together as if they were married. It is one of seven states with anti-cohabitation laws.

The punishment would be the same, with a maximum 30 days in jail and a $1,000 fine. But the proposal would remove the blanket ban on cohabitation, which has not been prosecuted in years, and its listing among other sex crimes, including rape and child sexual abuse.

"This is, in fact, the 21st century, and I believe it's time to put to rest this 19th-century legislation," said state Sen. Tracy Potter.

"If people are more comfortable in this wording, I have no problem, but I don't think it changes anything," said Sen. Tim Mathern, D-Fargo.

okay...I'm letting myself back into it..
...so long as we don't get into scripture... :-)

Hey, Mountain Rose, I'm on your side, as far as not pitying people for their lot in life. I'm not that prone to feeling sorry for people, and I haven't really heard anyone arguing that we should -- just that we should be fair, and rational. If straight people don't have to worry about their partner having custody of a child they raised together (in the event one of them dies), than neither should gay people.

Your arguments about average income are good enough, if anecdotal, but they still don't address the fact that financial success is not the definition of social parity, nor is it a birthright of being gay!


progress v. social decline
Well, obviously, Mountain Rose, I think you have it backwards and inside-out. That's my opinion. My assumptions are made partly because of your fairly extreme conspiracy theory types of statements, that seem to be based solely on your personal experience with groups and individuals. I'm not much of a conspiracy theory kind of girl, and that may indeed be because of the experiences I've had that perhaps differ radically from yours.

If I saw a shred of openness to another point of view, or some sign that you occasionally look to empirical evidence, instead of primarily casual observation, I'd be more likely to be impressed by your logic.

Maybe it's all a plot by this incredibly powerful "Left" -- or maybe, as my sweet fundamentalist Christian grandmother told me once, when I was bemoaning all the changes taking place, the natural world being overrun by concrete, etc., etc., "You know what? Everyone complains about 'progress'. Well, progress is not all bad or all good, and it just keeps happening. It's best to accept it and find the good in it."

Just a thought. I, for one, am quite sure I'm neither a puppet of the Evil Left, nor a central conspirator trying to impose socialism on the good old USA (I rather like capitalism).

I think it's far more likely that times just change, gradually, and we throw out some good and some bad and generally keep working to make society better.

unnatural
I have a better idea, eig2m/gary, let's all share exactly how we have sex / make love, then decide who among us does it naturally and/or unnaturally.

You go first.

On second thought, I really don't *want* to spend time thinking about other people's sex. Hmm...maybe that's why I don't get so worried about gay marriage...

(Sorry to be flip, but that was just *such* a rude and offensive post.)

Mountain Rose is lying AGAIN
Her so called observation of West Hollywood (the gays call it WEHO) is bull. To say that neighborhood represents the gay community is so far from the truth I don't even know where to begin. Would you consider Beverly Hills a representation of "straight society"? There are actually MORE heterosexuals living in West Hollywood than gay. Oh, and if marriage is SOOO important to Mountain Rose, just ask her about hers! It doesnt' exist that's why. Her divorce, her unemployment, and all the other factors that reduce her to her bitter state is why she projects her hate towards a specific community. PS. I'm gay, I live in Los Angeles, I'm not rich, and the handfull of queens that parade around West Hollywood are NOT rich. They are simply maxing out credit cards or trust-fund kids. If you are such a conservative christian mountain rose, why don't YOU MOVE somewhere else. You might even be able to find love again and cure that spoiled heart of your. I wish you luck.

Another Mountain Rose LIE!
Also, the majority of gays that live in West Hollywood are WHITE! The majority of people in Los Angeles are NOT. Therefore most of the gays in this area are poor hispanic men and women. From South Central to East Los Angeles gays live there in huge numbers. They are POOR! Besides, West Hollywood isn't even considered a gay "mecca" as Mountain Rose wants you to believe. Miami Beach, Minneapolis, and San Francisco are the only places that could take that title. Just because a neighborhood is safe for a gay couple to walk down the street and hold hands hardly makes it the gay capital of the world. (oh and check out the statistics of gay bashing that happens there, not to safe!). Mountain Rose will go to any length and tell any lie to spread her hate speech. Lying is hardly christian, lying is harldy moral. Pathetic.

Mountain Rose stated
""You are not taking into account that the Left is not having enough babies to replace themselves.

The children that the Left successfully brainwashes will tend to abort their babies and get STDs rendering them sterile, while conservatives will continue having decent size families.

Plus, now the conservatives are on to the game of the Left and are working to take back education.

So in thirty years, the Leftists will be in old folks homes and the children of conservatives will be running the show.

Too bad!

Boo hoo!""

You are putting faith into the fact the all these "conservative babies" will grow up with your way of thinking. The opposite will be true though. Once they are old enough to start thinking for themselves they break free of your hate-slave mentality. Sorry Mountain Rose, kids these day don't care about gays the way you do. You are part of a dying breed. Adios!!!

Hey, Gay Mafioso
What about all the gays I used to work with in the entertainment industry, including lesbians, who all made more money than me, who all used to back each other up (no pun intended) and band together?

How about the gays I know who live in other fashionable areas, who have custom-built theaters in their million-dollar homes?

I am trying to recall what I said about gays that registered to you as hate for gays.

I do recall calling them useful idiots who were stirred up by the activist Left. I think they are foolish to be used in that manner, but I don't consider that hate.

Are there gay people I hate? Certainly, but there are also gay people that I like. But that does not change my opinion about tearing down the society by changing the definition of marriage.

hokey-dokey, then...I think it's time...
...me to take my little idealistic view (that having a "positive attitude" and arguing patiently might actually have an impact and make people less afraid of moderates and liberals) and crawl back out for some fresh air. Can you hear me laughing at myself?

Thanks for the info, Gay Mafia. It was a great kick in the a... Time for me to get more productive.

You know...I don't think the world is in great shape or terrible shape. It's just a whole hell of a lot better than the depressed doomsayers would like me to believe. I think I'll take my fun, 25-year + marriage and middle income job and get back to helping kids with special needs and minding my own business. I'm such a tool of Satan and The Left, obviously.

SO WHAT!
You know a dozen gays who own big screen tvs and you think you have a grasp on the whole society! What a joke you are. They probably made more money than you because they deserved it or were more qualified. You've proved my point, your jealousy and bitterness have led you to hate a specific group of people who have done NOTHING TO YOU. Of course with your attitude, I can't believe anyone would WANT to work with you. There is always McDonalds honey. They will hire you! hahaha. PS. You shouldn't HATE anyone.

Hi Martha Sweetie!
You're 25 year marriage is what keeps this society structure together. And the fact that you give back by teaching (thanks, we all love our teachers) is a blessing. Mountain Rose and her divorce, hate speech, and jealousy is what destroys the fabric of our society! I hope she finds happiness some day.

Gay Mafioso- do you have your knickers
in a knot, or are you just happy to see me?

I must be effective in what I say if I p!ss you off so much!!!

Yes, the conservatives are on to the ploys of the Left who have taken over the universities, as well as other branches of education, and are doing something about it.

Can you say "Home Schooling?"

I knew you could!

Children may be more courteous to gays, which is a good thing, but if they are raised properly, they still know right from wrong.

I am flattered that you know so much about me, and while that is nice, I am hoping that you don't plan to stalk me.

I've only read the "gay articles" on TH
And for some reason "mountain rose" is spatting on every one of them! If you don't want people to know about your life, don't write it down for the world to see. This is why I'm convinced you married a gay man who left you. Your contempt for the homosexuals is scary.

Seek the Truth
There is much research that shows homosexuality is not in anyone's best interest. There are many studies to date that show the detriment to society and it affects all of us. In America, Human Herpes Virus 8 is a disease found exclusively among male homosexual practitioners. There are diseases found in homosexuals that are only seen in the tropics. Promiscuity is on the rise among gay males. Gay men reportedly have sex with someone other than their partner in 66% of relationships within the first year, rising to approximately 90% if the relationship endures over five years. (In heterosexuals, over 75% of men and approx. 88% of women remain monogamous as long as they are coupled.) A headline in the New York Times on August 14, 2001 was "Officials Voice Alarm Over Halt in AIDS Decline". The only epidemiological study to date on the life span of gay men concluded that gay and bisexual men lose up to 20 years of life expectancy. Comparatively, smokers lose 13.5 years. In 1999, King County, Washington reported 85% of syphilis cases were among self-identified homosexual practitioners. Newsweek ran a story stating that with the media coverage of homosexuals, more young adults were experimenting with it. The impact of the health consequences of gay sex is not confined to homosexual practitioners. Even though nearly 11 million people in the US are directly affected by cancer, compared to slightly more than three quarters of a million with AIDS, AIDS spending per patient is more than seven times that for cancer. The inequity for diabetes and heart disease is even more striking. And this movement will continue with other lifestyles. The ACLU believes that criminal and civil laws prohibiting or penalizing the practice of plural marriage violates constitutional protections. (ACLU Policy #91, p175)
There are many medical studies out there on the homosexual lifestyle. Research and make an informed decision.

http://www.corporateresourcecouncil.org/white_papers/Health_Risks.pdf

Thanks, Gay Mafia...
...for the kind words -- and to you, Mountain Rose, for an interesting afternoon. Maybe the three of us can do lunch sometime when I visit my son who lives in Santa Barbara.

:) Just thought it might be time for a laugh...

Good luck!
Martha the Happy Geek

Hey Gay! I guess that anyone who
disagrees with you practices hate speech.

You know, king of like this:

You: "the sky is orange."

Me: "it kind of looks blue to me"

You: "admit it, you hate orange, don't you?"

Me: "Well no, I eat oranges sometimes, and wear orange."

You: "See, see! you are abusive to orange! You are an orange hater!"

Me: "huh?"

You: "You should move out of Southern California because oranges grow here! Don't you know that California isn't the only place that oranges grow? Of course you wouldn't, because you hate orange! Oranges grow in Arizona and Florida as well, and in fact, orange juice comes almost exclusively from Florida, but you wouldn't know that because you hate orange!"

Me: "Huh?"

That's funny!
I could pick mountain rose up in my 400 thousand dollar Bentley! Us gays just have soooo much money! I'd be afraid that she would fall in love with me though. I wouldn't want to break her heart. Poor thing has been through enough!

Hmmmmm... I think I express contempt
for the Left.

If you can bear it, go back and read my posts, and you will see that I consider gays to be used by the activist Left.

There are people who are both gay and Leftists.

I admit contempt for them.

And for anyone who is trying to deconstruct my culture and reinvent it in the image of Karl Marx.

The sky?
Uhmm, you said nothing about the sky, so there is nothing to "disagree" with you there. You hate the gays. It's ok, lots of people do. Just quit LYING! You lie way to much for one person, I think you actually start believing yourself.

SO only
self-loathing gays who hate themselves and their entire existence are ok in your book? I guess misery does love company. Go find a man mountain rose and you won't be worried about all this mess.

Thanks Martha
I hope you are picking up the tab!

intelligent response (I hope)
to WRH Bill:

It's nice to hear someone actually support their ideas with details.

Thank you.

My honest question: People often mention "activist courts" and judges "legislating from the bench" (you didn't, but you do believe that this issue belongs in the legislature). Can you help me understand when it *is* appropriate for the judicial branch to protect the rights of minorities? For example, were there good reasons for the courts to be involved in the CRM in the sixties?

This is a complicated question (but a fair one) that I'll try to answer. I'll start by saying that I'm not entirely comfortable with referring to the "rights of minorities" since I see constitutional rights as belonging wholly or primarily to individuals, not to groups.

But anyway, I think courts are justified in acting against the will of the majority when they are protecting rights that are *specifically* stated in the Constitution. It helps if the court's understanding of the right is compatible with the way the people who actually wrote the Constitution (the framers of the original Constitution and Bill of Rights, or the authors and ratifiers of later amendments).

An example of a court ruling against majority wishes that I think was justifiable (but one that still may make many conservatives on this board unhappy) was the ruling against school-organized, compulsoary or quasi-compulsory prayer in public schools. I think putting students under pressure to pray (or pretend to pray) in a particular way violates both the "no establishment of religion" and "free exercise" clauses of the Constitution. ("Free exercise" doesn't mean you get to pray *in a group* in the classroom, any more than freedom of speech means school kids get to talk in class whenever they want.)

Another unpopular but I think justified ruling was that to permit flag burning as a protest. I despise the idea of flag burning, but I don't think it ought to be a crime except insofar as it qualifies as vandalism or creating a fire hazard. The crucial point to me is that flag burning is not only permitted but actually *recommended* if done in a "respectful" manner to dispose of a worn-out flag. This means it is not the *action* itself that is criminal, but the idea or attitude it is meant to express-- and banning expression of an idea is not constitutional.

And just to disabuse any notions that I'm a crazed liberal, I would be glad to see courts overturn local gun control laws on Second Amendment grounds, even where those laws were supported by a majority.

As for the Civil Rights Movement (it took me a minute to figure out that was what you were referring to by "CRM") I think much of what the courts did was justified-- for instance, overturning segregation in public schools-- but perhaps not all. I'm a supporter of private property rights, and I think an argument can be made that the courts went too far in prohibiting discrimination by private persons and businesses. (This was the view taken by then Sen. Barry Goldwater in voting against one of the Civil Rights Acts, which caused him to be unfairly regarded as a racist.) Please note I'm not saying someone who chooses to discriminate in operating a private business is doing something good or right, any more than someone who uses his freedom of speech to express racist or hateful ideas is to be admired. But I think sometimes people have a legal "right to do wrong". To apply this to your concern, Martha, I think it's unfortunate if you are denied a job you're qualified for because of your sexual preference-- but I would not be inclined to use the law to *force* an employer to hire you.

Anyway, to get back to the original gay-marriage issue... I just don't think the Constitutioal requirement for "equal protection of the laws" provides a specific enough requirement of allowing gay marriage to justify courts in enacting it against the intense opposition of majorities. (Certainly gay marriage fails the original-intent test; if you had told the Founders, or even the authors of the 14th Amendment, that they were enacting a right for two men or two women to marry in order to engage in what was then called "sodomy," they would not only have denied it, they would have considered you *literally* insane.)

Gay Maf
"...You hate the gays. It's ok, lots of people do. Just quit LYING! You lie way to much for one person, I think you actually start believing yourself."
**************************************

Well, I admit that there are gay people I hate.

But there are also gay people I like.

Depends on the person.

Hysterical gays I feel sorry for.

Who cares if the founders
would have thought gay marriage is "insane". I think the idea of slave-owning WAS *literally* insane. Nothing stopped them.

Hey Gay Mafia
I was thinking of making a joke about West Hollywood and slaves, but decided against it since Leftists have no sense of humor!

Rosie
You don't "like" them at all. Let me put it to you this way, if I printed out all the posts you "hysterically" ranted on about homosexuals, then read them to these alleged friends, I'm sure their opinion of you would change drastically. We have no agenda, there is no conspiracy. I want to live my life in peace without the fear and ideas that people like yourself induce into society that breeds hate and violence. Being gay is not a choice, it is not a disease, and it is not immoral. I DO agree with you though that factions of the left AND the right exploit us whenever possible to further their OWN agendas. In the end we end up losing and getting our faces kicked in. And you wonder WHY we stick together. Just leave us alone Rosie, seriously, just get your own life back together and don't worry about ours.

Challenges & Responses
"First, changing the definition of marriage implies that marriage is just a matter of cultural definition. If so, then “marriage” is nothing in particular and can be restructured at the whim of the people."

Yeah. So?

"Any homosexual can marry in any state of the Union and receive every one of the privileges and benefits of state-sanctioned matrimony. He just cannot marry someone of the same sex."

How freaking generous.

In other words, if homosexual marriage were legal and heterosexual marriage were not, heterosexuals would have no right to complain. They could always marry someone of the same sex.

Here are your options, gays: Marry someone you're not attracted to, or don't get married.

Generous!!!

"Homosexuals want the right to do something no one, straight or gay, has the right to do: wed someone of the same sex."

And this is why they are trying to change the law, genius.

"Denying them that right is not a violation of the equal protection clause."

Bull pucky.

"The second complaint is more substantial. It’s true that homosexual couples do not have the same legal benefits as married heterosexuals regarding taxation, family leave, health care, hospital visitation, inheritance, etc. However, no other non-marital relationships between individuals – non-gay brothers, a pair of spinsters, college roommates, fraternity brothers – share those benefits, either. Why should they?"

If marriage is sacred, sacred above any other kind of relationships, like these people claim, then naturally you would assign special rights to it. Wouldn't you?

(And yes, marriage is a special right, reserved for straight couples only.)

"If homosexual couples face 'unequal protection' in this area, so does every other pair of unmarried citizens who have deep, loving commitments to each other. Why should gays get preferential treatment just because they are sexually involved?"

Why should straights?

See, there's not a lot of thought going into this article.

"The government gives special benefits to marriages and not to others for good reason. It’s not because they involve long-term, loving, committed relationships. Many others qualify there. It’s because they involve children. Inheritance rights flow naturally to progeny. Tax relief for families eases the financial burden children make on paychecks. Insurance policies reflect the unique relationship between a wage earner and his or her dependents (if Mom stays home to care for kids, she ˆ and they ˆ are still covered)."

What about gays who have kids?

"Marriage is not meant to be a shortcut to group insurance rates or tax relief. It’s meant to build families."

As has been noted many times before here, marriage is not necessary to produce children, and it is not necessary to have kids once one is married.

"Gay citizens already have the same right to marry as anyone else – subject to the same restrictions. No one may marry a close blood relative, a child, a person who is already married, or a person of the same sex. However much those restrictions may disappoint the incestuous, pedophiles, polygamists, and homosexuals, the issue is not discrimination. It is the nature of marriage itself.”

The nature of marriage results from man's opinion. Marriage is not a law of nature. It is a government/church institution.

2. “They said the same thing about interracial marriage.”

"Same-sex marriage and interracial marriage have nothing in common. There is no difference between a black and a white human being because skin color is morally trivial. There is an enormous difference, however, between a man and a woman. Ethnicity has no bearing on marriage. Sex is fundamental to marriage. This approach won’t work to justify polygamous or incestuous unions (“In the past people wouldn’t allow interracial marriages, either.”). It is equally ineffectual here. The objection may be the same, but the circumstances are entirely different.

Ethnicity used to have bearing on marriage. Where's the "That's the way it's always been" argument now?

I suppose, too, that this author is calling for the immediate divorce of anyone who is married but not having sex, no?

"These remarks reflect a common misconception: Same-sex marriage will secure new liberties for homosexuals that have eluded them thus far. This will not happen because no personal liberty is being denied them."

EXCEPT MARRIAGE, GENIUS.

"Gay marriage grants no new freedom"

Except the freedom to marry...

"and denying marriage licenses to homosexuals does not restrict any liberty."

...except the liberty to MARRY, genius.

"Denying marriage doesn't restrict anyone. It merely withholds social approval from a lifestyle and set of behaviors that homosexuals have complete freedom to pursue without it. A marriage license doesn’t give liberty; it gives respect."

So gays are not worthy of respect. Check.

"Ironically, heterosexuals have been living together for years enjoying every liberty of matrimony without the 'piece of paper.'”

Clearly, then, heterosexual couples don't need to be married. Which means they have no reason to withhold marriage from gays.



"It is a radical attempt at civil engineering using government muscle to strong-arm the people into accommodating a lifestyle many find deeply offensive, contrary to nature, socially destructive, and morally repugnant."

Why do these people get to be in charge of what society says is acceptable? The fact that they object to homosexuality doesn't mean they are right.

"If marriage were about love, then billions of people in the history of the world who thought they were married were not. Most marriages have been arranged. Love may percolate later, but only as a result of marriage, not the reason for it."

Again he makes it seem as though marriage is not necessary. So why the fight?

"The definition of marriage has not been in flux in the way people suggest. In fact, marriage itself has not been redefined at all. Because there have been variations on the theme does not mean there has been no theme. From the dawn of civilization marriage has always been between men and women."

Umpires used to wear top hats and sit off to the side of home plate in a high chair. Why don't they anymore? Because someone figured out a better place on the field for them to be.

"And spouses have always been male and female."

Not always. As we have seen, for one example, in Massachusetts. So that argument is bogus. He's simply wrong.

"Initially it is easy to resist any suggestion that “marriage” and “family” are essentially connected with “offspring.” Clearly, not all families have children. Some marriages are barren, by choice or by design. This proves nothing, though. Books are written by authors to be read, even if large ones are used as doorstops or discarded ones help ignite campfires. The fact that many lie unread and covered with dust, or piled atop coffee tables for decorative effect doesn’t mean they were not destined for higher purpose. In the same way, the natural tie of marriage to procreation is not nullified because in some individual cases children are not intended or even possible. Marriage still is what it is even if its essential purpose is never actualized. The exceptions prove the rule, they don’t nullify it. Marriage is intrinsically about and for children."

Nothing but rationalization. He has no argument here.

"Columnist Dennis Prager has observed, 'Every higher civilization has defined marriage as an institution joining members of the opposite sex.'”

Prager's been divorced twice.

"The fact that same-sex couples can legally adopt changes nothing. This, too, subverts the purpose of marriage by robbing families (and children) of a vital ingredient: mothers and fathers. By licensing same-sex marriage, society declares by law that two men or two women are equally suited to raise a child, that mothers and fathers contribute nothing unique to healthy child-rearing. This is self-evidently false. Moms and dads are not interchangeable."

And...that's it? He stops the argument there? That's not much.

"Families may fail to produce children, either by choice or by accident, but they are about children, nonetheless."

And this article is pretty much about rationalization.

"That’s why marriages have always been between men and women; they are the only ones, in the natural state, who have kids."

MARRIAGE IS NOT NECESSARY TO HAVE A FAMILY. IT ISN'T NECESSARY, PERIOD. A piece of paper issued by the state does NOTHING to prevent families. NOTHING.

"It privileges and sustains marriage in order to protect the future of civilization."

Bu**pucky! People having kids is what is going to keep a society going, if only to prevent it from dying out.

"Same-sex marriage is radically revisionist. It severs family from its roots"

No, it doesn't. Families will continue to happen regardless of whether gays get married. This is a fact.

"eviscerates marriage of any normative content"

Using the word "normative" here allows the author to avoid saying the phrase "It's just how things ought to be."

"and robs children of a mother and a father. This must not happen."

Is this author pressuring single parents to get married?

If not, why not?

"[Gays] may not be universally respected or admired, but they have the liberty to live as they choose."

Except as a married couple.

I agree also
That West Hollywood is a gay ghetto. I'm sure that's what you were getting at. I think it's sad that these kids are driven out of their homes and have to run away to cities like Los Angeles and New York and Miami. It's sad that their parents abused them and turned their backs on them when they needed help the most. You enjoy that though, you like to witness their suffering and make "jokes". I'm glad we could assist you in your laughter.

What is a society?
Gays are people who have feelings, beliefs, needs, desires, ideas for solutions to problems, etc. They, like all human beings have a right, whether "approved" by God or man, to have their own society. But, at the same time, all other people have a right to their own society, as well.

Our nation was founded by "religious" societies that later became the 13 states and we have to remember that the Bill of Rights in the U.S. Constitution didn't apply to the States but only served as a limit of federal power for 150 years until 1925.

Further, each state was its own society until almost 1950 with its own moral and social laws based on the majority in each society. The U.S. Constitution didn't apply to issues left to the states and the rights protected in each State Constitution, all 50 of which still have God in them, by the way, because only the Federal Government was prohibited from having a "relationship with anything to do with religion."

That is why until the N.H. Constitution was changed in 1877, Catholics couldn't be governor or hold other offices because the Constitution denied anyone who wasn't a protestant from holding high offices. It is why atheists couldn't testify in some courts. It was why the Bible was used as a textbook in public schools, etc.

Not that they were "right" but that they had the right to have their own society. Each new group of people that sought statehood had their own society and Constitution that defined which rights the people wanted protection from state powers. The U.S. Constitution, of course, protected the rights they wanted the federal government to have no sway over.

Thus the feds couldn't ban adultery, but the state could. The feds couldn't require business close on Sunday the state could. The feds couldn't require state schools open with prayer, the state could. The feds couldn't set the age of consent for marriage or sexual relationships but the state could and did and it varies from state to state. The feds couldn't outlaw profanity or obscene language but the states could. The feds couldn't ban sodomy but the states could.

The feds couldn't ban prostitution but the state did while Nevada didn't, same with gambling. There are only 7 states that still ban cohabitation with intent to fornicate and only 21 or 22 that ban adultery because they are state issues and until challenged and overruled as was Sodomy stand. Just recently a man was fined $150 in New York for adultery so it is not only on the books but still results in a fine if there is a complaint filed and the person found guilty.

Gays have the right to have a society under original intent but, under original intent they wouldn't be allowed to force the rest of the societies in the nation do the same.

We were formed as a republic with separate societies where each set the standards of morality and they varied from state to state (society to society) so that we were free to choose the society we would live in.

We weren't a pure democracy and democracy was word that was avoided because of the dangers of democracies. We were a representative government and a republic and we used a "Constitutional form of government" to set limits on the majority rule we set up.

For 175 years that is how our nation functioned. Only after socialism started to gain power through the Courts did we see our system of determining morality change. Only after the Courts started to undermine the original principles the nation was founded on, (separate societies, each with its own culture, morality, standards, laws, etc.) did issues like this become national issues.

Of course the reason for that is simple. Using the Courts and federal centralized power to force the people to comply with the wishes of a minority allowed what wasn't possible before about 1950.

Since socialists couldn't convince the majority in many states to comply with the people in other states, they have decided to use the power of the federal government to force the majority to do what they would otherwise not do. They claim this involves the protection of rights guaranteed in the U.S. Constitution but those rights were never and still aren't in jeopardy of federal power.

They could always convince the majority in a state to have a state that allows gay marriage, allows adultery or fornication or sodomy, etc. too. The only thing they couldn't do is use the federal government force states that didn't want to allow those things in their individual society if they didn't want to.

People who don't understand that the U.S. Constituion's Bill of Rights were never intended to apply to state powers can't understand why this has become a big issue. Yet for 175 years the 1st Amendment did apply and at no time, not even the most liberal Supreme Court has applied all the Bill of Rights, leaving some things to the States.

Why, if the Bill of Rights, apply aren't they all applied? The answer is it has been an arbitrary application where 5 of 9 Justices usually, decide the "method of change in states" required by the Constitution is too slow and they want to speed it up based on their own beliefs even if they have to change the interpretation of precedent that has stood for 175 years.

When Gitlow, in 1925, after 150 years started the incorporation of the Bill of Rights, it wasn't long, less than 25 years that the 1st Amendment "establishment of Religion" clause started to be applied to the states. Remember we had state religions until about 1833 and it was 1877 before N.H. would allow Catholics to be elected to high office because they aren't protestants.

Gays have a right to have their own society in any state they can convince to allow them rights to any aspect of their lifestyle including marriage. They just don't have a right to force any society to do it because that would take away the type of freedom by majority rule we had and still have to some degree. It would mean we go from majority rule as Washington and Jefferson said "must prevail," and replace it with tryanny or rule by a minority though force (Court rulings siding with minorities over legal majority or Constitutional majority rights under State Constitutions)

Thus, this issue has a lot to do with the future of this nation and the separations of state and federal powers it was established on. That is the whole reason we all live under two Constitutions, a Federal and a State Constitutuion and are supposed to honor and uphold both.

Marriage vs Civil Union
As the author clearly states, marriage is a union between one man and one women. To change that definition is to open Pandora's box.

Assuming homosexual unions are marriages; why then cannot marriage be between siblings? Neither union may produce progeny. How about between law partners? Between college roommates? Between groups of men and women? Between one man and many women? One woman and many men? Between human and animal? Why should one group get preferential treatment and not all?

The government's acceptance of civil unions between same sex partners already discriminates against all the other abnormal "marriages", where is equal protection under the law for them?

The slope is way more slippery than same sex union advocates realize. In the end, the backlash against homosexuals may prove worse than what they suffered decades ago.

Gay Maf- Who started it?
Gay Mafia writes: Sunday, February, 11, 2007 5:56 PM
Rosie
"I want to live my life in peace without the fear and ideas that people like yourself induce into society that breeds hate and violence.... Just leave us alone Rosie, seriously, just get your own life back together and don't worry about ours."
*************************************

Hey cutie, maybe you should go back and look to see who was on this blog first and who wrote to whom first.

I gotta go.

Got a dance class.

appreciation for an intelligent response
Thanks, WRH Bill, for your patient effort! I can definitely understand your viewpoint, especially with all the examples. If I had not sworn I would stick with lesson plans for the rest of the night, I'd respond more. Also, in my hurry, what I say may reflect a hasty conclusion here or there...please excuse.

I understand your discomfort with talking about the "rights of minorities," but I also wonder how unjust and brutal a society might become if it always operated by pure majority rule. I think the fact that rights of individuals who are members of minorities are likely to be limited because of their limited voting power (and by the human tendency to be afraid of anything and anyone who is "different") is significant and therefore those rights might, at times, need protection from the courts. I'll be reading more on the subject, though, since you took the time to post so carefully.

What I like about your views is that they appear to be consistent with your understanding of law and an underlying philosophy of freedom, rather than just an adherence to an inconsistent party platform.

Okay...back to the books!

Thanks again,
Martha

Pappy Micheal
You might know people who want to marry their goat, but I surely don't. Your post is a slippery slope into stupidity. What great lengths people go to spreading their hate. Two people, one man and one man, or one woman and one woman. Get it. I don't ever recall animals or Mormons coming into the picture here. Also, state unions are not good enough! We need to be recognized be the federal government because they are the ones who deal with immigration and marriage. I have a friend and her girlfriend's papers expired and she has to return back to germany. It's sad because they are so in love and can't get married. My friend is leaving and moving with her. Why? Because our country turned its back on her. If she were to marry a man though, he could stay and they could build their life here together. Our bigoted society doesn't see that people and families are torn apart because of our actions. I love it how someone from the middle east, or mexico, or china, or anywhere else in the WORLD can migrate here, become a citizen and then sponser their spouse with citizenship, BUT my friend, born and raised in a small town in Ohio has no rights at all for this cause. Sure, she could lie, have her girlfriend marry some guy, but her integrity and honesty won't allow her to do that. She is now leaving America, her home and her family. I will miss her dearly.

Dance Class!
Make sure you get a gay partner. We are known to be light on our toes.

quick addition/correction
But, of course, you were directly answering the issue of when it's appropriate for courts to rule against majority sentiment, and you did so quite well. I suppose I essentially agree with you, that the issue boils down to whether or not the constitution is specific enough to guarantee marriage rights to all. I definitely don't think original intent is adequate, given other qualified questions that would have failed that test. My point is: you got me thinking. Thanks!

MarthaGeek
p.s. I can't imagine that you buy the arguments of the original article by Koukl...?

There are?
>there are cases wending their way through courts in Utah challenging prohibitions on polygamy.<

I would have to see a link to these cases in order to believe this claim. Has anyone who has followed this thread challenged this claim, which I'm certain is erroneous?

martha
the american heritage college ed. dictionary defines "sodomy" as "any of various forms of sexual intercourse held to be unnatural or abnormal, especially anal intercourse or beastiality"

intercourse between a man & a woman involves a phallus and a vagina. now, two men having sex with each other cannot have natural sexual relations with each other because they are missing one of the tools---same is true for two females. therefore, any and all sexual relations not having both a phallus and a vagina are unnatural. i have nothing against the unnatural, however it doesn't require redefining marriage so one can be unnatural. you are free to have sex the way you desire.

how can one describe my comments as offensive? only when a person uses the unnatural method that person does not want to acknowledge it being unnatural, therefore he/she would call my comments offensive.

thank you
gary

Homosexuals really don't want Marriage
QUOTE:BUT my friend, born and raised in a small town in Ohio has no rights at all for this cause. Sure, she could lie, have her girlfriend marry some guy, but her integrity and honesty won't allow her to do that. She is now leaving America, her home and her family. I will miss her dearly. END QUOTE

Gay Mafia,

I think the last thing any gay couple would want is marriage like "man-woman" marriage is marriage. For if they did then they would have to consider all the ramifications of divorce -- the dividing of assets, custody, adultery (or whatever you would call it -- fidelity to a spouse). Homosexual arrangements are notoriously lacking in any long term fidelity. From all accounts I've read homosexual couples are highly prone to unfidelity and having sexual liasons. Marriage is the most illogical arrangement a homosexual would desire. The demands are totally against the life style that they live. I know heterosexual marriage AT LEAST puts a pretense of faithfulness in the relationship; at least there's an expectation of loyalty to ones partner. There are vows that are expected to be honored. There is expected behaviour in a marriage relationship and frankly homosexuals cannot handle the demands. So, Gay Mafia, your posturing that our country is discriminatory is really nothing but that, posturing. To put the demands of marriage on your gay relationships is a socital act of love looking out for your best interests. Marriage promotes loyalty - fidelity - forsaking all others UNTIL DEATH. It's an act of kindness that we don't put these demands upon you. You want legitimacy but for that legitimacy you've got to pay the price and that price is just too high for you to bear.

How Low Can You Go
QUOTE:i have nothing against the unnatural, however it doesn't require redefining marriage so one can be unnatural. you are free to have sex the way you desire. END QUOTE

Look at the above quote. We're narrowing marriage to the bottom line of orgasm. Something as lofty as marriage being reduced to the lowest common denominator. How cheap can we be? We might as well say that one can marry themselves and masturbate - who needs a partner at all.

qwerty: don't preach to me
Go ask mountain rose and other posters about their "till death do us part" charade. They are divorced and their ex spouses are still alive. If gays can handle constant abuse, torment, violence, and discrimination on a daily basis, I THINK we can handle divorce courts! In the meantime, my friend is leaving the country because of our bigoted laws. At least they will be together. I would do the same thing if I was in her position. Are you in love, married? Would you not go to the ends of the earth for her? Enjoy the freedom you have, but don't take it for granted. Don't relish in the misery of others. Thank you.

Gary
I know lots of guys that have "sodomized" their girlfriend or wife (mutual consent). I also know that the women enjoyed it. I thought straight couples did that stuff all the time?? Most straight porn involves "gang banging" in the rear! sorry, I know that sounds sick, but hey, that's what out there. Now can I ask you this, what does this have to do with Civil Rights?? The posters here always seem bring up all these strange sexual almost borderline fantasy topics. I'm beginning to wonder about you all! Hahahaha.Is the guilt to much! Are you going to punish yourself tonight because of these impure thoughts! Give me a break. Let the gays get married, no biggie. Everything will be ok. I promise. If we want to get divorced then we'll contact Mountain Rose and request a referall to a great divorce lawyer!

Dear Gay "Mafia"
RE: "You are putting faith into the fact the all these 'conservative babies' will grow up with your way of thinking. The opposite will be true though. Once they are old enough to start thinking for themselves they break free of your hate-slave mentality."

A strong dose of nonsense wrapped in a thick layer of wishful thinking. All that will happen in real life is that most of the current generation of children will grow up in line with the following maxim: "if you're not a liberal by age twenty you have no heart; if you're not a conservative by age forty you have no brain." The fruitcake community will get no more than its usual two or three percent of them, if that. I wish you all the best, "gay mafia!" Your sun is setting and it will take with it your putrid cause. All that your posts (and those of the other fruitcakes here) prove is that the capacity of the human mind to rationalize deviant behavior is limitless. Now, please be good sports and move on to Moveon!

robert E lee
thanks for spreading the hate. my point is proven. there is nothing rational in your post nor in your sad life. You will be gone soon and the world will continue, gay marriage and all. Sorry you have to live with this anger, oh well, that's life I guess. My grandfather HATED black people, but at the end, on his death bed I'm sure that was the last thing that crossed his mind. (except for WHY DID I SPEND ALL THOSE YEARS HATING PEOPLE) I have no cause but my happiness and the happiness of EVERYONE. If me being married consumes your life, then I'm sorry. That is not my purpose. Life goes on robert e lee, bigots like yourself and all.

PS. ROBERT E LEE
I just went over to moveon.org. There doesn't seem to be any debate on gay marriage over there?? I guess since townhall is where all the gay action is, I'll camp out here for awhile! Next time, give me a decent lead.

Dear Gay "Mafia" - Part Two
I think you've proven my point, especially the part about rationalizing. Why? You immediately lapsed into using the stock form of argumentation the Left uses -- the ad hominem attack. This may come as real shock to you and your fruitcake buddies, but calling those who disagree with you "bigots" who spread "hate" will not change our minds, nor does it constitute a valid argument in favor of legalizing your so-called "lifestyle." All that tactic tells me is that lefties and libertines like yourself have very little intellectual ammunition to use. Yelling and shrieking and throwing name-calling tantrums just makes you look, well, babyish.

Marriage for gays is NOT COMPASSIONATE
QUOTE:Go ask mountain rose and other posters about their "till death do us part" charade. They are divorced and their ex spouses are still alive. END QUOTE

Gay Mafia,

Divorce is brutal and punishing. It's emotionally devastating. I personally, am against what I consider "serial monogamy" that is too much a part of U.S. culture. But the laws of our land are not friendly to those who go the divorce route. Unless a woman is professionally educated she's almost guaranteed poverty. The very foundation and solid footing which children enjoyed through the marriage of their parents is destroyed. Men, to survive as they want, bury themselves in work making a future relationship have a severe handicap from the very beginning.


QUOTE:I THINK we can handle divorce courts! END QUOTE

I honestly don't think you (homosexuals in general) can handle it. All the reading I've done suggests emotionally instability. Higher rates of suicide than the average population. The fact of facing a divorce, IMO, would add to that pressure and may put them over the edge to more serious problems than before. You may not like to hear that but I think that's the way the facts would bear themselves out.


QUOTE:Don't relish in the misery of others. END QUOTE

My whole point is to not put you in a situation (marriage -- with the same demands as heterosexual marriage) that WILL cause you more misery. I think by NOT allowing homosexual marriage we are going down the path of compassion for your and those like you. The commitment level of homosexual couples just isn't demonstrated by the facts of your promiscuous life style. Marriage isn't good for you. I do NOT relish in the suffering that your lifestyle bears upon you. Sincerely. Believe me on that point. Studies done on the well being of homosexuals bear out that you carry far more suffering on your plates than heterosexuals. I would like to spare you that, which is ONE REASON why I think marriage for homosexual couples is a grave mistake.

excuse me but
I just assumed you like to wear the "bigot" name as some badge of honor or something. I mean you hate and you are a bigot, what's the debate? I'm not trying to change your mind, I was telling some stories. I've learned a long time ago that you can't debate with prejudice people. I think they were abused as children or something, and they would need years of counseling. I'm not equipped to do that, so instead I was simply telling some stories. PS. The guy that works at the gas station at the end of the street (he's middle eastern or something) he calls me "fruitcake" as well! Boy you guys have more in common than you think! I don't know why you are so busy killing each other.

qwerty
You really need to get out more. That's all I have to say about that one.

PS. qwerty
Yes, gays do suffer. We suffer from hate and discrimination and anger and violence from people who think like you do. Go read some of THOSE facts. Spare the bigotry wrapped up in your so called "compassion" speech.

**Gay Mafia** civil rights
response to your question! I am quoting you.

"know lots of guys that have "sodomized" their girlfriend or wife (mutual consent). I also know that the women enjoyed it. I thought straight couples did that stuff all the time?? Most straight porn involves "gang banging" in the rear! sorry, I know that sounds sick, but hey, that's what out there. Now can I ask you this, what does this have to do with Civil Rights??"

you have just made my point. you don' have to redefine marriage to perform unnatural sex acts. this is done already within marriage and outside marriage. you have as i the civil right to have unnatural sex. why is this even an issue with sodomizers (homosexuals). what has marriage have to do with your right to be involved with sodomy?

thank you
gary

Somebody help me out here...
I am trying to figure out what my own personal failure to remain married has anything to do with the criteria for getting married?

How about this: let's make it harder to get divorced, like in the old days when the judge got to tell you to go back and try again. Would that make you happy?

It would make me happy.

Or how about this: let's make it harder to get married. What if we have a manditory 18 months engagement period?

I would rather do that than change the definition of marriage.

gay mafia
it is true you cant debate with prejudice people which is why i will not debate you as nothing i say will convince you i dont really care about your life. Personally i dont really care about gay marriage i say marriage is a religious issue and most religions are not in favor of homosexuality thus i am not in favor of goverment forcing them to accept something they do not accept that is constitutionally wrong always has been always will be.

eig2m AGAIN
what DOES it have to do with civil rights. You are reducing marriage to just sex. It's more than that, gays included.

eig2m & Gay Mafia
No, I am not starting a rumor: I am just commenting on your posts.
****************************************

(eig2m): "**Gay Mafia** civil rights
response to your question! I am quoting you."
.............................................
(Gay Mafia) "know lots of guys that have "sodomized" their girlfriend or wife (mutual consent). I also know that the women enjoyed it. I thought straight couples did that stuff all the time?? Most straight porn involves "gang banging" in the rear! sorry, I know that sounds sick, but hey, that's what out there. Now can I ask you this, what does this have to do with Civil Rights??"
.............................................
(eig2m): "you have just made my point. you don' have to redefine marriage to perform unnatural sex acts. this is done already within marriage and outside marriage. you have as i the civil right to have unnatural sex. why is this even an issue with sodomizers (homosexuals). what has marriage have to do with your right to be involved with sodomy?
thank you
gary"
**************************************

While people have the right to do anything they want together when they are alone, I just want to point out that American women still tend to be a bit puritanical, and generally don't practice "back door entry" because of it.

This is the very reason why American tend to not get HIV/AIDS while women in other countries do.

Besides intervenous drugs, using the booty as a "love recepticle" is the major factor in contracting HIV/AIDS.

chr335
Then what about a federal civil union law that contains all the "special rights" married people recieve. I'd be down for that one. I don't care about "marriage" either, but when you live your life day after day after day hearing what a "bad" person you are, sinful, evil, child molester, fruitcake as so eloquently spoken above, faggot, and every other name you could possibly think of, well it starts to get on your nerves after awhile. When you try and put people down, block them into corners, expect a fight. Sorry.

Mountain Rose
Would you really be happier if you were still married to your ex because YOU HAD TO? I don't think so. Do you think there are gays who could benefit from the marriage you squandered away? See example above. Thatis why you were singled out. I'm sorry for your divorce, and I do hope you find happiness, but COME ON NOW, every time TH brings up gay marriage, there you are, telling us how we are going to destroy society. You guys are doing that just fine yourselves. At least let us be a part of it!! HAHAHA.

Sorry Rosie
The above comment didn't mean you can't be happy being single. It's just I kind of like having a man around the house myself!

HIV AIDS
I know alot of people who have sex here also wear condoms. Something they don't do in africa. I guess the fear of getting pregnant trumps any old desease.

Gay Mafia
I have been saying that the Left has been destroying society.

You guys are just a tool in their arsinol

Whatever Rosie
So denying me civil rights so you can "get back" at the left is ridiculous. So are YOU using me as well?

back to Gay Mafia
QUOTE:I don't care about "marriage" either,
I don't care about "marriage" either,
I don't care about "marriage" either, END

Gay Mafia,

Thank you. This was my point. You don't really give a fig about marriage -- so quit the pretenses.

I think if you want to fight for a cause that the general population would be able to be convinced of, it would be that a cure for HIV/AIDS be found. If medical researches finds the cure of HIV/AIDS they will probably unlock many of the diseases dealing with the breakdown of the immune system; diseases that are common across all populations, including several cancers.

qwerty BUT
I do not speak for all gay people. Many want gay marriage, why shouldn't they have that right? I'm with you on the whole hiv thing. I've lost many friends to it. PS. Did you read my civil union post or just pick out what you wanted?

AND
I know ALOT of young people my age (all straight) who don't care about marriage either. The fact is, if one day they decide they do, well they have that right! All I am asking for is mine. What is so wrong with that? I just can't seem to grasp what goes on inside the brain of a prejudiced person. With the divorce rates and single people in this country one could say that MOST people don't care about marriage either. You can still go to Vegas and have a wedding that last a week. I can't though. My friend who is in a very long loving relationship can't. Now she is leaving the country. I know though that one day they will return, gay marriage will be the law of the land! How comforting to know that.

Gay Mafia
Should I be surprised that you did not answer my questions?

I suppose not, you seem want to narrow the field to only "your" issue, but what about the others?

What about siblings who want to be "married"?

All the other questions I brought up are valid as well, to someone and they will have a bearing on the discussion of marriage in the future.

Why do you feel it is okay to discriminate against people who want to have a group marriage or be polygamists? What is so wrong with that?

Name calling-first line of defense by someone without a logical argument.

Pappy
I never brought up the sibling subject you did. Why should I? How ridiculous! When I discuss gay marriage, incest and humping dogs don't pop into my mind like it does yours. So sir, to answer your question "my" issue IS gay marriage. YES gay marriage,plain and simple. Go find a goat lover to answer the rest of your fantasies, I mean, questions. I have no experience in those fields.

Gay Mafia
Perhaps you could share where all this brutal victimization of gays is taking place.

In case you you don't get to read the papers much, most if not all major corporations require sensitivity/diversity training which pretty much says if you say or do anything to harrass gays, you can kiss you job good-by. Many are now also offering insurance benefits for gay couples.
Most city governments have taken the same tack.
I'd be hard pressed to see corporate discrimination because of sexual orientation these days.

Koukl, the author of the article being debated here hit the nail on the head:
The gay community is pushing so hard on the marriage issue because this is the one way to FORCE straight people to respect your life style.

There are legal methods available to:

pass on wealth/property after death that have nothing to do with marriage.

binding documents can be prepared that allow gay couples to say who is allowed to visit them in a hospital, make life or death decisions about treatment of a gay partner who is unable to do so, etc.

Sodomy laws have pretty much been revoked everywhere so gays can't be persecuted for that.

If you truly wish people (i.e. evil, vicious, homophobic, right wing, "so-called Christian" -where's all that love crap you bigots keep talking about) nut cases would leave you alone, then stop trying to make the majority of people (as has been proven wherever it came up for a vote) approve your need for acceptance, via marriage.

I was raised to believe that if you calling a particular group a nasty name (fill in any racist/ethnic/sexual orientation cheap-shot) or claiming "they" are "all the same" is a sign of ignorance and mental laziness. My parents accepted neither. I was taught to take people one at a time and either like them, dislike them or not care one way or the other... thus I don't care if you're homosexual, bi-sexual or asexual.

I do wish you would make your points without whining so much. Whining, by the way, has nothing to do with sexual orientation.



POINT
Gay people should legally be allowed to be married, and THROUGH that marriage enjoy all the legal rights that come with that union. Calling someone a bigot because they call me a fruitcake HARDLY is a cheap shot. Of course nobody hear would ever tell people like that, "Hey that isn't very nice". Therefore I am to assume that you agree with them. So my point is, YES bigots you are, like it or not. If you really want to see what it is like to be a gay person, find someone of the same sex, hold there hand or embrace, and Walk down your main street wherever. I just hope they believe you when you scream "I'm really not a homo!" before they slug you out. You can deney your heart away, but facts are facts.

AND
My friend who is leaving for Germany doesn't care if you accept her relationship. She is not on a crusade to FORCE anything on you. She simply wants to marry her girlfriend so she can stay with her in this country and they can live happily ever after. Isn't that what we are all searching for. Why do you have such a problem with that?

Marriage
Gay Mafia,

Your question is actually a very good one. But the answer is a Christian response. God created man "in His image" -- male and female He created them. The scriptures speak of the first man and woman being ONE flesh and they are commanded to be fruitful and multiply. The Christian understanding of God is that of Trinity -- Three Divine Persons making One God. Marriage reflects this Divine Image of God in that when man and woman marry they are no longer two but ONE. The Nicene Creed, a summary of the Christian faith devised 325 AD, states that the Son is "eternally begotten" of the Father; there was never a time when there wasn't Father and Son. The Holy Spirit is said to "proceed from the Father and Son" demonstrating that their love is fruitful. This is reflective of the Trinity in that the relationship of male and female is to also be fruitful. The fruit of human love in marriage is children. So, Marriage is a reflection of God Himself. Marriage was created by God Himself BEFORE societies existed as such. Marriage is HIS creation and we, as men created in His image, have no right to define it in any way other than the way He created it. Marriage is a Divine institution.

Socities can be studied as to how they fashioned laws according to the creation of the Creator. The more socities marriage laws reflect the Divine Image the more stable the society. When this image becomes marred societies falter; EVERY TIME. NOTHING man can do can change this. If marriage were simply a creation of man and his culture things would be different; but this is not the case. This is why Christians are so passionate about this issue. Homosexual marriage CANNOT be fruitful, cannot bear children as God intended for His creation from the beginning, and therefore isn't a reflection of the Trinity. Marriage is sacred and must be protected as such.

POINT-LESS
You seem to have missed the point... I was suggesting that it was the Nasty ole right wing Christians WHO WERE THE BIGOTS FOR CALLING NAMES not you, you twit. Now you're getting hysterical (hysteria has nothing to do with sexual orientation either). Other than what happened to your friend, what legal rights do straight married couples have that gay couples don't?!?!??
Other than the fact that you're not "legally" married, what are some of those other rights you keep going on about????

PS
And how funny it is that people say the nastiest things, then turn around and WHINE (your word) DON'T CALL ME A BIGOT, PLEASE! Give me a break. Just own it already. Talk about laziness. Oh and the "law tips", really thanks for the bone.

Bi-national relationships
I already discussed that. Her girlfriends papers have expired, she has to move back to Germany. My friend is leaving with her because there is nothing she can do. Others suggested she lie and have her girlfriend marry some guy so she can stay. She hated that idea which she should. Why should she have to lie? I think it's horrible. All those marriage shams that people like Britney have, and when there are two people really in love, who could benefit from its rewards, NO. America has turned its back on her.

Gay Mafia
You're dodging the issue!! What theose rights that you don't have?? Please (other than your friend) give me some examples!! Okay, just ONE example.

BY the way, please read back thru my posts.. I NEVER CALLED YOU A BIGOT!!! I was, and I repeat,calling people who put you down bigots- THEM, NOT YOU!!!!!! Pay attention, okay?

PS saying that you tend to whine in your posts is a reflection of your writing style not your sexual orientation (i.e. not bigotry, unless critizing your method of expressing yourself is bigotry)

qwerty
I understand the religious aspects. Not all people are christian though. I was baptized luthern but never went to church. I was also born gay and I will die gay. If the church were to become more inclusive, maybe one day I would put in some interest. I'm not ever going down that Haggard route though. Creepy. Anyways, I think you would find that most gays would be happy with federal unions. I personally would think that would be great. You can call it anything you want, it doesn't have to be called marriage. We will save that "sacred" institution to people like Guliani, or Britney Spears, or Mountain Rose, or Donald Trump. No problem here. I will respect your church and your beliefs, you will only have to "tolerate" my civil union.

Shurely-u-jest
My friend is not alone. Thousands of bi-national couples AND families are torn apart by this. I think it's tragic. I read what you wrote. You want gays to just shut up and go away. You think we must bring on all these problems ourselves? Ps. I'm not a twit, i've had 5 coronas.

Guess Gay Mafia can't think of examples
Awww come on, just one example of white a legal marriage or federal union would give you that you don't have.

By the way, even if the federal marriage deal was passed, do you truly think that the bigots would stop making fun of you?

By the way,I live in a small city(60,000 pop.) in Texas. We have a hugh mall. Gay couples walk hand-in-hand there all the time... no hard looks, no snide remarks, certainly no phsical violence.

I'm sure there are areas where it wouldn't be safe for gays, there are also lots of areas where straight, white guys wouldn't be safe either. So we can both go on and on ans on with anecdotes about ill treatment. BUT you still haven't given any examples are those "lost rights".


Shurely-u-jest
I gave you ONE example and it's a BIG ONE. Even just a single "lost right" should not be tolerated. Equal means equal. I already said above that I am well aware that the world is full of bigotry. "That's life" or something to that extent is what I said. Would you support a federal civil union or would that go against your outlook of gays being inferior?

Oh
And what about the tax items.Death tax, head of household, I'm sure there are more. I mean I've heard there are over a thousand special priviledges that come with being married FEDERALLY. You do the research.

Wrong again!
I didn't ask you to shut up and go away, ON THE CONTRARY, I've asked you three times now to respond to my question.. other than what happened to your friend, what "rights" have you lost?? Gee whiz, I'm not speaking chinese here (please -no bigotry intended toward the chinese)

And I'm sorry if I find it hard to believe that THOUSANDS of bi-national couples and families have been torn apart by this injustice. Do you have any evidence to back that up or is some vast right-wing conspiracy keeping that information hidden from the public.
BUT, lest we get caught up in that last sentence, what about those rights that you don't have. Sorry if I keep pressing this issue but I've heard this kind of accusation before, but NOBODY will back it up with examples!!

You said
"If you truly wish people (i.e. evil, vicious, homophobic, right wing, "so-called Christian" -where's all that love crap you bigots keep talking about) nut cases would leave you alone, then stop trying to make the majority of people (as has been proven wherever it came up for a vote) approve your need for acceptance, via marriage."

How should I interpret this? There are gays who want to get married and you think they should shut up as not to upset the homophobes?? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Also
A preliminary study of the 2000 census by demographer Gary Gates at the Williams Project on gay studies at the UCLA, found that 6 percent of the 594,391 same-sex unmarried partners that were counted included one citizen and one noncitizen. That would indicate more than 35,000 same-sex bi-national couples living in the United States at the time of the census.

Taxes

"And what about the tax items.Death tax, head of household, I'm sure there are more. I mean I've heard there are over a thousand special priviledges that come with being married FEDERALLY."

Sorry to break your balloon, there there are not
thousands or hundreds of tax breaks for "married couples" I don't know where you've "heard" that or who it was that mis-informed you. But here's a fact (as reported by AARP -see their web-site) that many old couples get divorces because they can receive higher benefits (soc. sec. and tax breaks)as SINGLES while still living together.

Cut and Paste
On the order of 1,400 legal rights are conferred upon married couples in the U.S. Typically these are composed of about 400 state benefits and over 1,000 federal benefits. Among them are the rights to: joint parenting;
joint adoption;
joint foster care, custody, and visitation (including non-biological parents);
status as next-of-kin for hospital visits and medical decisions where one partner is too ill to be competent;
joint insurance policies for home, auto and health;
dissolution and divorce protections such as community property and child support;
immigration and residency for partners from other countries;
inheritance automatically in the absence of a will;
joint leases with automatic renewal rights in the event one partner dies or leaves the house or apartment;
inheritance of jointly-owned real and personal property through the right of survivorship (which avoids the time and expense and taxes in probate);
benefits such as annuities, pension plans, Social Security, and Medicare;
spousal exemptions to property tax increases upon the death of one partner who is a co-owner of the home;
veterans' discounts on medical care, education, and home loans; joint filing of tax returns;
joint filing of customs claims when traveling;
wrongful death benefits for a surviving partner and children;
bereavement or sick leave to care for a partner or child;
decision-making power with respect to whether a deceased partner will be cremated or not and where to bury him or her;
crime victims' recovery benefits;
loss of consortium tort benefits;
domestic violence protection orders;
judicial protections and evidentiary immunity;

Gay Mafia, it's time to call it a night
It's 12:13 am where I am and time to hit the rack as I have to be up at 5am.

I've enjoyed debating with you. perhaps we'll met on one of these forums again

Sleep on this one
the dixie chicks won 4 grammy's. (sorry cheap shot) Good night. PS. Give me directions to that mall. I'd love to meet a hunky texan guy...(sorry if that was TOO GAY for TH)

Dave - opposed to remarriage?
Dave writes: Sunday, February, 11, 2007 8:10 AM, "Why aren't Christians as fervently opposed to remarriage after divorce?"

First, I am against divorce period. Second, I am against remarriage after divorce. But like the gay advocates, none of the divorcees really want my opinion anyway.

So want is your point?

Gay "Rights"
Gay Mafia

Why are you okay with discriminating against polygamists, platonic couples and group marriages, but demand "rights" for gay couples?
What about NAMBLA? Should they have the same rights as gay couples?

It all seems so hypocritical of you.

Again Pappy
I gave no stand (yes or no) on any of the examples you have given so no discrimination has taken place. You are one obsessed with the boy, animal, polygamy arena. What does talking about 2 gay adults getting married or having a civil union have to do with NAMBLA or polygamy? With your wisdom, marriage itself is a "slippery slope" to everything you have stated, is it not? Again, if you wish to know what "rights" these groups seek, GO TALK TO THEM! Gay EQUAL rights have nothing to do with some guy marrying 6 woman. If they feel the need to fight that battle, so be it. They are not of my concern right now. We all have our battles, this one is mine.

birdman
I agree with you! When I fall in love, it will be forever! (isn't that from a song)

Oh and Pappy
Why is everyone NOT demanding the constitution be altered to forbid polygamy, bestiality, and kid sex? Only gay marriage. Makes me wonder why? I guess you and the president think that two consenting "adults" are more of a threat than child molestors and animal humping. Oh,and as for "traditional" marriage being altered, well you can thank that whole interacial law thing that allowed people of other races to get married. Maybe that was your "culprit" of this whole slippery slope thing. How desperate people become to validate their bigotry.

Cure for HIV/AIDS found
It is called morality.

HIV/AIDS is spread by specific lifestyle choices and is 100% preventable. If gay men were really monogamous, then AIDS would not keep spreading through the Gay Community.

Getting married does not make anyone faithful: but character does.

For a short time the incidence of new cases was declining, because people were horrified watching their friends die a terrible death. But with the new medications that control the disease, the consequences are no longer so obvious. Young gay guys are now doing the bath house thing and becomming in appalling numbers.

Condoms only help a little bit. If they were all that effective, then why is HIV/AIDS still spreading in a country where they are so readily available?

For example, I remember a news story where there was found a "condom reef" in the ocean. It seems that similar objects collect together in water and float together (this can't be good for the fish). If that many condoms are being used, then the obviously are doing little good in stopping AIDS.

Our country needs to return to teaching values and character. Only then will HIV/AIDS begin to go away.

An uncomfortable admission:
“This is about other people recognizing what we have already recognized with each other for a long time.”

It is the above admission right there that proves, beyond all doubt, that marriage is NOT a right.

A right is something that one recognizes whether or not other people want to recognize that right. The First Amendment, for example, delcares that you have the right to free speech, but, however, it does NOT say that everyone else must listen to and accept what you have to say, nor even be forced to provide you with a venue from which to say it.

A marriage is a recognition BY A THIRD PARTY that a certain state exists. This being the case, it is NOT a 'right'.

Personally, I think that if the voters want to legitimately change the law of their state to recognize homosexual marriage, so be it. BUT for unelected judges to hereby decree homosexual marriage as a 'right', as is the case here in the CommonTheft of Taxachusetts, is a most eggregious and blatent abuse of judicial power imaginable. It is not the job of a judge to force their personal views upon an unwilling public, and the members of the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court who did so should be removed from office for failing to uphold their oaths of office.

Family Decline
If you want a perfecly good example of what happens whenn the family unit decays all you need to do is reference Bill Cosby's rant on the state of the African American family. There is only one parent in the majority of the examples he cites and the results are not favorable at all. 50% drop out rate, 70% out-of-wedlock birth which perpetuates the cycle of single parents and poverty. Unfortunately we have diminished the role of fathers and mothers from something noble to something cheap and stale. Now for all of the Christians who champion marriage, I have only seen one of those denominations put forth an official declaration on the family and institution of marriage, http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,105-1-11-1,00.html.

I think we should keep up w/ the addage of "Heterophobe" just to see how they like it. And the Heterophobes have not convinced me that it is a constitutional right for them to get married. Any one else notice that on one hand the left is advocating that women don't need to get married to men because it is just a piece of paper but on the other hand it is imparitive that the gays get married for equal status, it does't add up to me.

Skin color remains trivial
Gestell writes: Sunday, February, 11, 2007 2:07 PM
Also, in his refutation of the "interrracial marriage" issue, Koukl writes that "skin color is morally trivial." But that's precisely the point. The laws against miscegnation were based on the widespread and legally sanctioned belief that skin color was NOT "morally trivial." Why do we now think it IS morally trivial? Because all sorts of horrible liberal activists and judges made decisions that it was, and most (obviously, not all) of us have acquiesced to the power of the liberal state. In other words, Koukl hasn't even come close to spiking the parallel drawn by advocates of gay marriage between the prohibition on white/black marriages and that on gay marriages.
-----------------------------------------
Skin color is morally trivial because Christ has instructed us so, through his Apostles. http://www.christiananswers.net/bible/gal3.html#29 Galatians 3:29.

You should stop taking minor spikes in progressive opinions as fact. The ignorance that history must change according to your skewed viewpoint is laughable. Skin color should have no significance to any follower of the Son of Man.

Times change
Marriage is actually about institutionalizing the sexual bond for the purpose of having and raising children, which is a more complex issue than just having children. When you marry someone, you are making that person your legal sexual partner. That is why extramarital affairs are still frowned upon by society, even if those affairs produce no children.

In the past, the issues of sex, child-bearing, and child-rearing, were all conflated. Because for healthy couples, having sex meant having children eventually; and in order to have children, a couple had to have sex. After children were born, sex continued to help sustain the emotional bond that would keep a couple together, because both were needed to raise the children.

That's not true anymore. The contraceptive Pill finally made it possible to have sex without procreation; and in-vitro fertilization (IVF) has made it possible to have procreation without sex.

As for raising children, we now have millions of single-parent households in this country--far more than the number of gays who are asking to marry. That is made possible by improved education and more white-collar jobs that a mom can do, and day-care for children.

But which is worse for a child, having two gay parents or being a "latchkey" child with only one parent who has to work full-time? Yet social conservatives seem far less interested in dealing with single-parenting than they are in banning same-sex marriage. Why?

Also, if marriage were solely about having children, then why would social conservatives not be upset about banning polygamy (plural marriage), since polygamous marriages can produce more children.

I believe it is simply because they insist on bringing in the Judeo-Christian Bible into a discussion of civil marriage, and they believe that in their religion, homosexuality is more morally repugnant than single-parenting. But their religious beliefs about the morality of homosexuality should have no bearing on a discussion of civil (as opposed to religious) marriage. America has no official state religion. We're talking about civil marriage, an institution that has to cover couples who are not Judeo-Christian.

Seperation of marriage and state
would solve this problem easily. End the entitlement mentality that makes marriage a finacial boon (for some) and, as far as government is concerned, people, straight or gay, who feel some need to register their partnerships w/ the state could do so, whether as domestic partnerships, civil unions, etc... not "marriages."

As private, ie, non-civil, institutions, no church would be forced to marry two individuals who do not subscribe to that church's tenets, thereby taking any religious coercion arguments out of the mix.

Two questions- has anyone here documented one instance of a straight person leaving his/her spouse to wed a member of the same sex? I'm a conservative Republican who lives in Massachusetts, and I have yet to see this occur. Has anyone? Does anyone believe they would be tempted to leave their spouse to marry a member of the same-sex should that be legal? I know I'm not tempted.

Heterophobe!
That is imaginative but I will not disagree with you. Yes, there are gays who are terrified of heterosexuals.

Wow
I don't like much about France, but one thing I've seen there that makes a lot of sense is the whole marriage thing. In France, you typically have two ceremonies; one in the church and one civil ceremony.

This is because there are two things happening in a "marriage". First, there are civil rights/privileges attached to a civil union. Second, a religious aspect is recognized during the ceremony at the church.

Why, oh why, would it be so darn hard to simply recognize all couples with a civil union (should they so wish) and for marriage to be officially recognized as the religious aspect of a union? I mean, I would think liberals would be all over this, in fact, why would a liberal voice a desire for the state to recognize "marriage"? Isn't that "establishing" a religion?

As a nation, we have spent a great deal of time arguing over this issue. If a homosexual couple wish to live together they have the means to grant each other all of the personal privileges that marriage/civil union confers. Inheritance, visitation at the hospital, custody of children, etc. There are simple legal agreements that can be entered into conferring these rights/privileges. So, I look at a civil union as simply bundling these privileges as well as some of the state granted rights/privileges (ex., higher taxes, formal divorce, alimony, etc.).

I have no problem with a system recognizing the secular aspect of a civil union for all couples. Just don't call the damx thing "marriage".

Howee
I kind of agree with your post. If I were ever to want to get married in the future the last thing I would ever want to do is trample on somebody's beliefs. I understand people CHOOSE religions, some adopt the same beliefs as their parents, others become independent and go other routes. I completely and utterly respect their decisions and wish for their happiness. I think the idea of church is wonderful and all the generous contributions that the religious communities make is something that should always be applauded. I went to my friends wedding last month (they are straight) and they had an absolutely stunning and beautiful church wedding. As happy as I w