Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Wednesday, January 24, 2007
Gregory Koukl :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Confusing Moral Logic of ESCR: Part III
by Gregory Koukl
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


The pro-choice enterprise in any of its forms is doomed to fail morally because it ultimately reduces human value to functional terms.

For example, Michael Kinsley dismisses embryonic value because of size. They are “microscopic groupings of a few differentiated cells.” First, this only works if human size determines human value. Second, since size is relative, human value based on size would be relative, too. If bigger is better and smaller is lesser, what is the proper frame of reference for comparison? All human beings are much bigger than some things and much smaller than others.

For Kinsley, embryos are so small compared to him that their moral status is negligible. But for others, contemplating the size of the universe is enough to convince them all human beings are insignificant. Compared to Michel Kinsley, embryos have no value. Compared to the size of the cosmos, Mr. Kinsley has no value. Both conclusions are flawed for the same reason: Size does not determine value.

Location fares no better as a criteria for human worth. If you are a valuable human being, do you cease being valuable because you move from the store to the sidewalk? Or from the kitchen to the den? Or simply roll over in bed? If it's wrong to kill an innocent human being at one location, then it's wrong to kill that same innocent human being located somewhere else. This is obvious and axiomatic.

Even so, some pro-lifers lose sight of this logic when it comes to ESCR. Senator Orrin Hatch thinks that the moral status of an embryo in a petri dish is different from one in it’s “proper” environment attached to a uterus. He believes the first will never become a human being and the second already is one. Note, the only difference between the two is location. The embryo itself is exactly the same in each instance.

Of course, it is correct to think such embryos will never grow unto full human beings, but only because it’s very difficult to grow that large in a Petri dish. Seal up a senator in a Mason jar and he won’t grow much, either.

Following this rationale to its logical conclusion reveals its flaws. What if science were to advance beyond IVF to the point where artificial wombs could successfully domicile human embryos for the full nine months of gestation until “birth” (a technological eventuality, some say). Applying this same moral logic—the human isn’t a real human unless it’s in the right environment—what is pro-lifer Hatch to do now? This full-term fetus would not be human and, following the logic of ESCR, could legitimately be mined for his spare biological parts.

Clearly, location can't be the deciding factor. All human beings have some core quality that gives them equal and unalienable rights, and this valuable thing is not altered by anything physical or functional.

This is why the “benefit” argument for ESCR (“Think of all the people it will help”), even if true, has no merit. If embryos are in fact valuable human beings, then the end does not justify the means in this case. We do not sacrifice human beings for medical purposes regardless of the good it might bring others.

This benefit appeal reduces ESCR to, as one put it, “biotechnical cannibalism” in which we devour our own young to satisfy our hunger for personal health.

Eric Cohen, resident scholar at the Ethics and Public Policy Center, is particularly cogent:

They appeal to the suffering of loved ones (or celebrities) to make the argument for destroying human embryos. Such suffering is real and often horrible. But suffering is not an argument, and the case for embryo research must rest on some notion of what embryos are, what standing they should be accorded, and the moral consequences of using them as means for our own benefit. [emphasis added]

Consistently Pro-Life

The moral logic of the pro-life position, consistently applied, is adequate to inform not only the abortion issue, but ESCR as well.

When asked “What gives any human being value?” Pro-lifers have the resources to answer that question. When the human being exists, all of her intrinsic qualities exist, including her transcendent value. This answer, though, does not allow us in ESCR to tie human value to size, location, or level of development without destroying our case for innate human worth at the same time.

This logic also answers another question: What should we do with the extra embryos? Following our moral principles, since embryos are each valuable human beings, we should treat them like anyone else. They should neither be wantonly destroyed, auctioned off for medical experimentation, nor farmed for their valuable body parts. Instead, they should be adopted (implanted in new mothers) or allowed to die naturally. To avoid this problem in the future, IVF should be done only with the number of eggs that can safely be carried by the mother without risking “selective reductions,” a euphemism for abortion.

In ESCR, most embryos are harvested at seven days. A seven-day-old embryo is just 14 days away from a beating heart. For those who are pro-life, there is only one answer to the question of embryonic stem cell research: No. Anything else undermines our entire moral endeavor and completely destroys the case for any transcendent human rights.

That’s what the moral logic requires. Unless, of course, there really is no moral continuity to our position. Unless we are just emoting.

Click to read "The Confusing Moral Logic of ESCR: Part I or II"

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author

Gregory Koukl is founder and president of Stand to Reason, an organization devoted to a thoughtful and engaging defense of classical Christianity in the public square. He is also a radio talk show host and author of Relativism—Feet Firmly Planted in Mid-Air.

Be the first to read Gregory Koukl's column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com delivered each morning to your inbox.

ESCR--your comment re. location of cells
re. "Note, the only difference between the two is location. The embryo itself is exactly the same in each instance. "

I disagree. Your argument ignores that outside the womb the embryo will never progress to human life. The life stops here, so to speak. Following your logic, you should be running around gathering up every aborted and miscarried fetus and trying to save it. I haven't seen you doing that.

It's the only way
Koukl writes: "The pro-choice enterprise in any of its forms is doomed to fail morally because it ultimately reduces human value to functional terms."

Yes, "functional terms" is the only way to define a person. When the body stops functioning, it stops being a person and becomes a corpse. It's basically the same object, but no heartbeat, no brain function, not a person.

The rub (after Shakespeare) is that it's hard to know when a fetus starts to function as a person. Most pro choice people understand this and to not advocate abortion after a certain number of weeks (15?).

Why the debate
Well 34 years after Roe vs Wade and there is still debate on this issue. Why? If it's a no-brainer what's been keeping the rest of the country from jumping on board the train?

"Yes, "functional terms" is the only way to define a person. When the body stops functioning, it stops being a person and becomes a corpse. It's basically the same object, but no heartbeat, no brain function, not a person. "

So people are no different than cattle, cats, or dogs or cars for that matter since everything in the list 'functions'. Why is it a felony in every state to mutilate a corpse? And what exactly is a person's function? And if you become disabled and your 'function' is diminished do you become less of a person, less of a human being?


functional terms
Due to an accident, I have lost function of my index finger on my left hand, should medical science now be able to scavenge my remaining parts? My eyes could give someone sight.

YES and NO

"davyboy" came with this:
"outside the womb the embryo will never progress to human life. The life stops here, so to speak" - no kidding!
and also if you lock up a kid in a room for a year the life would have stopped there...

To: "liberalbadman" - yes, you do operate only on "functional terms". Other people also think.

To: Mr. Koukl: do not accept Orwellian talk like "pro-choice"; that phrase means no choice - only KIIIILL!.
those using that phrase do not give e.g. an adoption choice...just KILLLLL "it"..

Maybe we should perform VERY, very late abortions on those two first einsteins?

Cannot Reduce Human Value to Function!
Liberalgoodman-

zzx375 got it right. If you reduce human value to "function" you have a good case for killing mentally or physically handicapped children and adults.

Flawed arguments
Davyboy and Liberalgoodman, your arguments are flawed and missing critical points of logic:

Davyboy: "outside the womb, the embryo will never progress to human life" Koukl is illustrating that the fetus should be valued as a human being regardless of its location. The Pro-life argument is that the fetus HAD potential to become a living, breathing human being. Why was it taken out of the womb in the first place? Probably because it died naturally, was aborted, or whatever...regardless, it is a travesty that there was a price put on it simply because of its size or location.

The point neither of you have touched is that the fetus has the initial POTENTIAL to live like you and I. By simply saying it's "hard to know when a fetus functions as a person" is completely missing the POTENTIAL value.

Why do we mourn when someone dies? Because their value is lost? Why do we have a pomp and circumstance funeral when someone dies? If one asserts that simple function, location and size determines "value" then we have become a society of emotionless cyborgs. Indeed we have lost all HUMANITY.

It's sad that we debase a growing human as a "fetus" just to put it in scientific terms so that killing it makes us feel less guilty. Since when did a couple wanting a baby celebrate the fact that they're having a "fetus"??? Perhaps Koukl should have used the word BABY throughout his article to further his logic...which apparently is not sinking in.

What makes us human?
The Pro-Choice euphemisms like fetus, or ESCR, or ZEF (zygote-embryo-fetus) dehumanize the debate. It is NOT ESCR, it is HESCR (H=HUMAN), for these clumps of cells will not become goats, or sheep, or monkeys or lizards, but if implanted in a wanting womb can only become human.

But what makes humans different from all the other animals? It's not an opposible thumb on each hand, because racoons have them. We are not racoons.

What makes us unique among animals is the ability to wonder about things not germain to our existence. We have awareness and posess the ability to wonder about black holes, quarks, whether there is an after-life, etc. Theologians would call this ensoulment. Dogs, dolphins, and cattle do not worry about what day of the week it is.

This makes us special, and this uniqueness and potential begins when sperm and egg combine, because it is then that we become unique.


Correction for "the flash"
you wrote "[embryos] if implanted in a wanting womb can only become human."

This is actually false because you can't become something that you already are. Human embryos are human beings from the moment they begin to exist. This is an undeniable scientific fact.

Definition??
If you don't have a functional definition, then you have no definition. If you have no definition, then you have only authority: it's human because I say so. Then the next guy says: it's not human because I say so. Then you're really in the realm where anything goes.

We need a definition because we have painful choices to make. Do we keep a brain dead "person" on life support for years? Not if that person is already dead. (Note that while we respect a corpse, we don't treat is as a person. We stick it in the ground to rot.) The functional definition says that the person is dead even if the heart still beats if there is no brain function.

These are painful and difficult areas. Modern medicine has forced us to face.

Goes deeper than that
First, we ought to be discussing whether we humans ought to be playing God in the first place. I recognize and acknowledge the frustration of people who want to have children and can't do so naturally, but we're discussing ESCR because (and only because) we have played God by created embryos outside of the womb.

When people choose this method for having kids when the option has been removed from them by natural means, they are creating a moral dilemma for all of society. At their request, life is being created that will never be allowed to mature. When the technology first came out, I caught flak from several friends for saying I thought it was immoral. How could I doom people to childlessness? Well, to me that isn't the issue. It's about wanting your own biological children so much that you don't care if a half dozen of them are killed so you can have one or two.

Now, those same friends are pointing to the wonderful possibilities of ESCR, made possible by IVF, but I have to point out that ESCR is at best a pipe dream. It hasn't produced anything of value in the decade plus it's been in research. Meanwhile, ASCR is advancing cures and treatments on an incredible scale and does so without killing anyone.

Why must we embrace the failed research that requires murder when the producing research that gives life is already available? And, why are we allowing people to produce embryos that are destined to be used in bad research?

Do we no longer value life in this country?

Matthew wrote:
"So it's wrong to use babies for research purposes but it's cool to allow them to starve to death?"

Science has always seemed to be short-sighted and has the ability to advance much faster than the moral and ethical and social aspects of humanity can adapt to it. We should have never created these embryos in the first place. You call us strange? Is it justified to kill hundreds of human embryos to save one or two adults? How about a ratio of thousands of embryos before we save the first adult? What if it turns out that you would have to create millions of embryos before you find that one embryo that has the correct DNA in its stem cells that makes it useful? Is it OK to kill someone on death row to harvest his organs to save someone else without his or her consent? We don't ask embryos if its OK to kill them to MAYBE save someone else.

We are not evolved enough morally or socially to handle this type of science. I say top all HESCR until we are certain that all the promises of HASCR which is already saving lives has been exhausted.

Remember the A-bomb and then later the H-bomb? These terrible weapons were developed to end a terrible war. But after the war was over, we kept making them even when not needed (like embryos we are storing in liquid nitrogen in case the mother wanted more children in the future when her now fried ovaries are no longer able to produce viable eggs).

We justified the development of nuclear weapons by claiming that the by-product would be nuclear reactors that would generate electricity as well as bombs. In fact, we were promised "electricity too cheap to meter". Have you looked at your electricity bill lately? Furthermore, we now have created tons of highly radioactive waste that threaten to kill more of us than then bombs those reactors made if leaked into the environment.

We now have reactor technology than can "burn" this waste, and designs that will not cause a melt-down if the coolant is lost, but will never be built them because in our rush 30 years ago, we never stopped to think long term. Well, with IVF we have the moral equivalent of nuclear waste. IF we wait, we will find that adult stem cells can achieve the same things, and not kill anyone in the process.

aurorawatech
I wholeheartly agree that the price of aborting extra fetuses (under the sterile procedural name of undergoing a pregancy "reduction" and that we should not be playing God.

We should ask why there is such a push for human ESCR? THe reason is simple. Money. You cannot patent an adult stem cell, which was created by its owner. But you can patent a stem cell created in a petri dish. So while we have adult stem cell therapies that have cured diseases, there is no money in it. The sooner we admit the real push to destructive human emrbyo research, the quicker we will put this behind us.

liberalgoodman's definition??
I'm not making up any definitions. Whether or not someone is a living human being is strictly a biological question. Go to any embryology text book and you'll find out embryos are living human beings.

Once we've recognized the scientific facts then we can move to the philosophic question -- when do human beings have value? The Declaration Of Independence says "We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal". Since "all men" are created at conception, we gain our equality at conception. Notice that the Declaration of Independence doesn't list any functional requirements for equality like brain power or self awareness.



Drew writes ...
"Go to any embryology text book and you'll find out embryos are living human beings." -- I doubt this is true in the sense you mean. If you take a generic embryology off the shelf, it is very likely that the writer (being a highly educated American) is pro choice. Only a real monster could be pro choice and thing the fetus is a person in the sense you mean.

Human Embryos are Human Beings
Miscarriages are dead before they exit the womb, which is why the womb is expelling them. And most families do mourn and grieve for the dead child, and give them burials. There are in fact court cases where some courageous nurses have been prosecuted and lost their jobs because they have in fact attempted to save aborted but live fetuses. You, davyboy, would have them leave the struggling babies to die of hypothermia and criminal neglect. That is standard practice in hospitals and abortion clinics. But nurses doing their job of SAVING lives are criminalized. You think this is good?

As Mr. Koukl stated, the frozen embryos left over from in vitro fertilizaton (EXPERIMENTS!) deserve to be either implanted in some desirous women's wombs and allowed to fulfill the potential of their human development, or allowed to die naturally (! Not mere starvation, but analogous to an astronaut without his space suit being ejected into space, cut off and left to drift and die for lack of life-sustaining environment) and given respectful burials.

(By the way, the difference between a corpse and an embryo is that a corpse is dead, while an embryo -- from newly-fertilized egg on -- is alive. Even with heart beating but brain-dead, there is no hope of "revitalizing" the corpse. We know, even medically, that sooner rather than later, the whole body, specialized cell by specialized cell, will die. The human embryo, in its mother's uterus, on the other hand, will continue to thrive and develop -- barring accident or fatal disease -- until that human being is born, lives its life, and also dies with no hope of "revitalizing" its corpse. Going through the life cycle from conception to death certainly does not make one less of a human person at any step along the way.

We certainly do treat dead humans like persons -- in a civilized society. We respectfully prepare their bodies for burial or cremation; we do not throw them on the rendering pile or the garbage heap. We mourn them, cherish their memory and accomplishments, and preserve their HUMANITY. We consider a LOSS of a fellow human being, a subtraction from our community, not a slaughter and disposal of an animal. How we treat human persons at death is one of the hallmarks of being human, the respectful recognition that a fellow human being is above all other life forms on earth, even in death and so departed from our presence, and their body entitled to that veneration by virtue of their humanness and unique personhood.)

Do we gain anything by killing the flagrant waste of IVF and then experimenting on them? No.

No one stands to gain anything, morally or scientifically, from killing them by experimenting on them. The fact is in over 20 years of embryonic stem cell research not a single good outcome has resulted, not even a promise of potential. Instead, the experiments have produced death through accelerated aging and tumors. Without a single exception.

The answer is not to compound the problem by adding more barbarism to the deed already done, but to STOP before committing more grievous atrocities. Ever hear the old adage, "Two wrongs don't make a right"? It's true.

On the other hand, as aurorawatcher on a previous post (Part 1) points out, funding this specious ESCR "research" takes away funding for adult and umbilical cord research that has consistently produced positive results, and holds the actual promise for even more. And there are no rejection issues if one's own stem cells are used.

It's all about patent money, as aurorawatch again points out. But consider, the "researchers" don't want to patent any possible postive results from their macabre experimentations for use other than human. The uses are for human consumption -- to save and improve human lives, not for animal or plant use. Because these are human embryos, not some other kind; they are minute human beings, not anything else.

Thus the issue isn't arbitrary, nebulous "life," but is it the life OF a HUMAN BEING?

In animal husbandry, there is never a question of whether an embryo will turn out to be something other than its mom and dad species.

Cattle, sheep, goats, horses, pigs, dogs, cats, all are insured for thousands of dollars in breeding: the male, the sperm -- if it's gotten by artificial means, which is more and more the norm for specialized breeding -- the female chosen to carry the embryo, and the fertilized egg and embryo itself. All of them are valuable, and all are insured based on their value AS: cattle, sheep, goats, horses, pigs, dogs, cats.

No breeder entertains for a split second that the insured embryo is anything other than the species being bred: it IS a bovine, a sheep, a goat, a horse, a pig, a dog, a cat. No one in their wildest dreams thinks the embryos are going to develop into frogs, gorillas, amoebas, eagles, or human beings. Otherwise they couldn't breed the animals, and they surely wouldn't insure the materials and product of the breeding!

A HUMAN blastula, zygote, or embryo is a human being in its first stage of development. It will NEVER be a cow, a sheep, a frog, a dog, a chimpanzee, an amoeba, or anything else but a HUMAN BEING. It is not a "potential" human being; there is NO POTENTIAL for it to be anything else, EVER.

If we had to insure human breedings in the same way, this whole farce would be moot and just go away.

So. Slicing and dicing a human embryo is killing a human being, nothing else.

It's strictly a case of bigger, more powerful human beings exercising lethal force against a smaller, younger, weaker human being. Isn't that what we call bullying? Murder? Despotism? Sociopathy?

liberal-needs to pay attention-goodman
You have to read what I wrote. I didn't say "person" in regards to embryology textbooks. I was addressing the biological question. I have to address the biology because many pro-aborts live in denial of the facts. Here's a quote from an embryology text book:

O'Rahilly and Muller (2001): "Although life is a continuous process, fertilization ... is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is formed when the chromosomes of the male and female pronuclei blend in the oocyte." (p. 31)

To address the issue of "person" --that is, when a human being should be protected by law-- i referred to the Declaration Of Independence. The DOI makes a great statement for considering embryos persons.

"it is very likely that the writer (being a highly educated American) is pro choice."

You make me laugh. The real problem is that pro-aborts, no matter how smart they think they are, haven't really thought their position through. Pro-abort arguments are so easy to upend. But upending a pro-abort's shallow "choice" rhetoric is usually useless because they don't want to see the truth.

i gladly challenge any pro-abort to a debate on the issue right here in this forum.

For starters, when a woman aborts a baby created by consensual sex, it's like inviting someone over to your house then shooting him for trespassing.

Welcome
Greg Kokl is one of the great thinkers of our generation. Welcome, Greg, to the front lines. I've been a huge fan of Greg and Stand to Reason for many years.
Keep on keepin' on...

Michael Smith
The issue is not "What gives any human being value?" A human being may be valuable to some of us and of no value whatsoever to others. Some human beings, such as the lazy, loafing, shiftless parasites that seek to live off my tax dollars, have no value at all to ME, but may still be valued by their relatives. Other human beings, such as inventors, creators and innovators, are enormously valuable to a large percentage of society, but are hated by the envious. Yet all of these human beings possess rights. So, "value" is not the issue.

The issue is, what constitutes a human being; or, phrased in the article, the issue is "what embryos are and what standing they should be accorded".

What they ARE is clear: they are POTENTIAL human beings. This means that what they are NOT is equally clear: they are not ACTUAL human beings. An acorn is not an oak tree.

Every egg and every sperm is a potential human being. The argument is made that an embryo is distinguished from the egg and the sperm in that it possesses all of the genetic material needed to become a human being. But this is misleading: what the embryo actually contains are the plans -- in the form of DNA -- for making the vast amount of additional genetic material required to grow into a human being. But the plans for a thing are not the equivalent of the thing itself; the blueprints of a skyscraper are not the same thing as the skyscraper itself. And the plans by themselves are not enough to create anything: without the mother’s body, or the construction workers, these plans yield nothing.

There is no case for treating the potential and the actual the same way. Every human being is a potential mass murderer -- but we would never treat them as such until they become an actual mass murderer. Every human being is a potential inventor -- but we would never grant them rights to an invention until they become an actual inventor. Every human being is a potential corpse -- but until they become an actual corpse, we do not treat them as such.

Thus, there is no case for claiming that a potential human being possesses the same rights as an actual human being.

Don't forget the "being" part
Those of you claiming that an embryo is a human being are not only making the error of confusing the POTENTIAL and the ACTUAL as I outlined in my last post, you are also ignoring the meaning of "being" in "human being".

A being is a biologically seperate entity. A body part, like an arm or a leg or an internal organ, is not a "being". Neither is an embryo.


flash's question...
the flash asked:

"Is it OK to kill someone on death row to harvest his organs to save someone else without his or her consent? We don't ask embryos if its OK to kill them to MAYBE save someone else."

No, we don't ask embryos anything. The very notion is absurd and, in fact, reveals the utter nonsense of the claim that an embryo is a human being.

Debate drew?
Drew said:

"i gladly challenge any pro-abort to a debate on the issue right here in this forum.

For starters, when a woman aborts a baby created by consensual sex, it's like inviting someone over to your house then shooting him for trespassing."

Before you invite debate, I recommend that you get a text on logic and look up the fallacy of begging the question. After that, I suggest you read about the nature of the arbitrary in the form of unsupported assertions.

A debate is meaningful only within the bousnds of the basic rules of logic. Anything else is a shouting match, not a debate.

Ideology of mindless egoists.....
I was quite shocked what i had seen in article and in discussion...

Firstly I want to say, that I agree with Mike and Liberalgoodman...

...and there is my opinion...

zzx375 writes:
"So people are no different than cattle, cats, or dogs or cars for that matter since everything in the list 'functions'. Why is it a felony in every state to mutilate a corpse?"

Well... And where is a difference...?

Maybe - some people will start mumling something about God - and universal argument, that explains everything by saying "Why? Because!!"

But I'm not god-sneaker...

So I'm free to think... And well, only what I see is huge egoism of our specie...
...we're a little more inteligent than apes (well, some exceptions such as US president G.Bush exist...), dolphins or other animals...

Some pradators have mighty claws, we evolved better mind...

...and because egoistic mind couldn't resist, that it's only a special form of animal, it created and idea of beeing "chosen" - mankind created their gods...
...and their egocentrism shaped them as humanoids...
..claimed humans as only thinking beings and also granted humans monopol for "soul"...

But in fact, humans remained animals in basic...

And why there are rules about how we behave to corpses of our dead...?
Because we have some feelings bounded to those who were that corses before and because of that we don't want anyone to do any harm to taht corpses...
...it's not because of corpse or human it once was - it's because of mourners...

And even animals do similar things... (apes, dolphins)


But back to embryos...

Well - there were some funny quotes about IVF... Funny or sad..?

Noone can say, what is exact number of needed embryos...
...so there will be ever some form of "overproduce"...
Some ppl (??aurorawatcher, flash??) may argue, that it's "unnatural" so it's immoral...
...well, they should awake from their dream...
...we're goin against nature from early begining...
...and nature pays back...

...and we're in same train as Romanian civilization was...
...forgot those nonsense what priest told you...
That civilization was destroyed mainly because of infertility and froblems of "quality" of born children...
Why...? It's simple - poisonous metal: lead...
...once used as a material for waterpipes, later used as a part of petrol...
...now as it's stored in organisms, it damages sperms in male body or eggs (or later fetus) in female body...

And because today ppl are more technically evolved, they added even various forms of pesticides that cause infertility...
...nutrition additives that can cause damage to being or if that woman is pregnant woman - even to her fetus...

For example - what danger, you think, is in a bottle of Light Cola...?
I say you...
It's Light - Aspartam inside - it was proven it damage hormonal system which is causing problems with higher weight (but not only) and kill brain cells if in higher concentration for longer time...
It's probably in PET which is unstable material and due to standart or hgher temperatures sunlight and CO2 inside (CO2 - that gas also do a harm to bones) is turned into hormone, that is used by young girls to control their menstruation cycle... Can You imagine what that hormone can do with male organism...?
...I was cured for a year with anabolics, because my metabolism was totally ruined and I was fat like US children...

...and that's only quite non-harming begining...

Human race will be soon unable to reproduce naturally...
After all, even today, most children cannot be born naturally because of larger head... Nature rely on our skills in medicine...

So IVF will be still there...
...and still, there will be spare embryos - in fact waste...
...so - what is now more immoral:
1) Burn them as biowaste with some similar stuff like remains from liposuction or some cancer cells...?

2) Or use them into science or in education...?

(which can end in saving someone... You know - in-body production of core-cells is not so high to esure for example regeneration of neural systems... After all, it can be also used in case of transplantations...)

It's better to behave to those embryos like to the waste or like to the valuable source of hope for patients and knowledge for scientists...?

And there is even some forecast - Can you imagine future...? On our desolated planet...?
We must find out a method how to regenerate damaged genetic materials - and core-cells can help a lot with that...

(By the way - I thing it's better to have heart made from my DNA using core-cells than heart from GMO pig...)

for Mike
I'm well familiar with "begging the question" because pro-aborts do it all the time.

You don't like the assertion that a woman invites the baby into her womb by engaging in consensual sex? She engages in an act the natural result of which is the creation of an innocent human beings with needs. This makes her (and her partner) responsible for that baby. This is the essence of parental obligation.

Good luck explaining this away. Please give it a shot.

Mike you're ignorant of biology
The stuff you wrote is simply wrong. An embryo is a human being -- a member of the species Homo Sapiens. I reprise my quote from an embryology text book:

O'Rahilly and Muller (2001): "Although life is a continuous process, fertilization ... is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is formed when the chromosomes of the male and female pronuclei blend in the oocyte." (p. 31)

As you can see from the text, upon fertilization, the newly conceived being is a distinct human being. There's no way around it.

"An acorn is not an oak tree." This is true in that an infant is not an adult. An acorn isn't an oak tree but it is an oak. It's simply an oak in the infant or embryonic stage. Likewise an embyro is a human being in the embryonic stage of development.

The text "genetically distinct human organism" also makes it clear that your bit comparing an embryo to a body part is completely false.

It's important that you get your science straight or we won't be able to have a rational discussion.

Comodor W. Falkon
you said you are free to think. Yes you are. That is one freedom even the left can not take from you. In your sucess of free thinking you failed to think clearly and accurately. You said G.W. Bush is dumber than an ape. Makes me wonder how as Ape keeps out smarting your whole party. Smart ape or dumb party, I will let you think freely about that.
Even Mrs Clinton is complaining about how Bush tricked her into voting for the war. If She is so dumb to get tricked by an ape what does that say about the best your party has to offer.
This is an excelent example of what is wrong with the left. You need to think diciplined and not just freely. You need to think well and correct. Freedom is useless if directed and displined. You party seems to confuse this all the time. Rember every time you point a finger at Bush for being "stupid" you have 3 of your own pointing right back at yourself

ridiculous arguements
I am certain that any male can not understand the complex nature of having a child. Scientist or not. I think it is ridiculous that any male can have a complex view on the abortion situation. I know of no man who has carried a child for 10 months. How can a male understand the true nature of the vile act of doctor induced abortions?
That being said, I see little value in the arguements purposed by pro-choice advocates, most of who have never had an abortion themselves. As a mother of four, I know for a fact that life begans at conception. You can not put a timeline on when is the right time kill a baby (which is what abortion is). 15 weeks? 8 weeks.. By the time most women know they are pregnant, the heart is already beating, pumping blood throughout the body. What kind of arguement can one have against the science we already know of human development inside the womb. If a heart is beating.. is that not life? Surely the baby still needs the mother to survive, but so do newborns and toddlers. Are they not human creatures? Furthermore, If a child can not survive outside the womb, a womens body naturally aborts the fetus. Most doctor induced abortions are not because of defects with the child but because of poor planning and irresponsibility.
Abortion is infancide. If people do NOT want children they should be more careful. As for rapes.. I am a rape victim. So what? Just because one crime is commited does it make another right. I was raised to believe that two wrongs do NOT make a right. I also see little proof in abortion statistics that show that abortions are used to destroy a baby in a rape victim. 99% of abortions are because people are lazy, irresponsible and selfish.
Women have the choice to not have sex.. to use protection. PERIOD. Once the deed is done, life deserves the chance.
There are plenty of avenues for women who feel they can not raise the child. Why should death be the only option?
Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.