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Monday, July 07, 2008
Gregg Jackson :: Townhall.com Columnist
Same Sex "Marriage": Illegal in All Fifty States
by Gregg Jackson
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About a month ago, the California Supreme Court, in a 4-3 decision, issued a declaratory opinion that Proposition 22, which states that, “Only a marriage between a man and a woman is valid and recognized in California,” enshrined into statutory law by 61.4% of California voters in 2000 (over four million voters), was “unconstitutional” on the basis that "gender discrimination" violates the equal protection clause of the state constitution.

The LA Times reported that:

"The California Supreme Court struck down the state's ban on same-sex marriage Thursday in a broadly worded decision that would invalidate virtually any law that discriminates on the basis of sexual orientation."

Sadly, many of the leading "conservative" and "Christian" pro-family organizations such as AFA, Liberty Council, ADF, FRC, ACLJ, and Focus on the Family have been in full surrender mode conceding this same liberal talking point that the court "legalized same-sex marriage in California" and that the only way to ensure preserving traditional male-female marriage is through a state constitutional amendment scheduled to be on the ballot in November.

The California Supreme Court issued a declaratory opinion that, in the view of the bare majority, banning same sex couples from marrying was unconstitutional and that the language of the initiative statute limiting marriage to one man and one woman must be stricken from the statute. Unfortunately however, the court doesn’t have the constitutional authority to re-write the marriage statute nor any other initiative statute for that matter. According to the California Constitution, only the people can revoke or amend an initiative statute such as Prop 22. Same-sex “marriage” remains, therefore, illegal.

The court said the plaintiffs were entitled to the issuance of a "writ of mandate" but issued no actual writ to state officials to perform the ministerial act of issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples. Even if they had issued a "mandate," state officials are sworn to execute the law and not effectuate a court's opinion. Moreover, any court mandate or "order" would have been both unenforceable and invalid, since, according to a recent California Court of Appeals ruling from April of 2008, Sondermann Ring Partners v. Buenaventura, the court can declare an action of the legislature unconstitutional where such action exceeds the limits of the Constitution, but the courts have no means and no power to avoid non-action. In other words, the court is not constitutionally permitted to enforce its opinion.

Governor Schwarzenegger has fulfilled his promise to "uphold the court ruling" by authorizing changes to the marriage certificates, replacing "husband" and "wife" with "partner A" and "partner B” which is ironic considering that he vetoed a previous attempt by the legislature in 2005 to eliminate gender requirements for marriage which he argued required the assent of the electorate. He has also authorized Justices of the Peace and Town Clerks to solemnize and perform same sex marriage ceremonies which began on June 15th.

But the main question is whether or not Governor Schwarzenegger possesses the constitutional authority to do so.

The governor, according to Article 5 Section 1 of the California Constitution is solely responsible for seeing that "the law is faithfully executed."

And since all law making powers solely reside with the sovereign people of the state of California and their elected representatives, the governor is bound to only enforce the laws and statutes which have been enshrined into law via the people (in the case of a initiative statute or constitutional amendment) or their elected representatives, including Prop 22, which has not changed.

According to the California Constitution, only the voters possess the enumerated authority to amend or repeal the marriage statute limiting marriage to one man and one woman (Prop 22). As Judge Baxter wrote in his dissent:

Under article II, section 10, subdivision (c), that body cannot unilaterally repeal an initiative statute, such as Family Code section 308.5, unless the initiative measure itself so provides. Section 308.5 contains no such provision.

Nemo dat quod non habet, (You cannot give what you do not have.”) In other words, the California Supreme Court cannot give to the Legislature, what neither it, nor the legislature, has: the power to overturn the people’s initiative legislation. No branch of government, even the branch that claims to be the final arbiter of a Constitution can gain legal authority which it does not possess. To claim then the "the court legalized same sex marriage" by "striking down" the people’s initiative statute limiting marriage to one man and one woman has absolutely no constitutional basis.

Governor Schwarzenegger has violated his sworn oath to uphold the California Constitution to only enforce the current laws and statutes of the state of California by illegally authorizing changes to, and issuance of, marriage certificates to same sex couples.

Like former Massachusetts Governor Romney before him, Governor Schwarzenegger has falsely asserted that the court's opinion, containing no valid or enforceable court order, "legalized same sex marriage" and that it is his obligation to enforce the "court's decision." Romney illegally authorized the Department of Public Health to change the marriage certificates from "husband" and "wife" to "partner A" and "partner B" and ordered Town Clerks and Justices of the Peace to perform and solemnize same sex "marriages," or tender their resignation (which one did), without an accompanying statute approved by the legislature.

Schwarzenegger’s tyrannical actions are straight out of the Romney playbook.

It is no surprise that the vast majority of the leading conservative “pro-family” organizations, lawyers, and radio-pundits have been silent about Schwarzenegger’s illegal actions since virtually every one of them from Focus on the Family to Ann Coulter to Rush Limbaugh totally suppressed the truth about Mitt Romney’s virtually identical illegal actions.

Romney, not the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts, was originally solely responsible for the illegal issuance of marriage licenses to same sex couples in 2004. The claim that the "activist" Goodridge Court "legalized gay marriage" is a total lie. The court didn't even pretend its declaratory opinion on the one individual case before it, could in any way influence the current marriage statute:

"Here, no one argues that striking down the marriage laws is an appropriate form of relief." 

In fact, the court admitted that under the marriage statute, Chapter 207 of the Massachusetts General Laws, homosexual marriage is illegal:

"We conclude, as did the judge, that M.G.L. c. 207 may not be construed to permit same-sex couples to marry."

In California, while the court has claimed that the designation of marriage as a “union between one man and one woman” must be stricken from the statute, it is crucial to reiterate that only the sovereign people of California have the constitutional authority to amend or revoke an initiative statute such as Prop 22.

Since courts lack the authority to enforce their own opinions and cannot make law, they can only be considered “activist” when the executive branch enforces their opinion as if it were the “new law.” While a bare majority of four members of the court, no doubt issued an illegal opinion and should be impeached for doing so, Governor Schwarzenegger alone authorized the issuance of the illegally altered marriage certificates. Executive tyranny, not “judicial activism,” is what occurred in California (and Massachusetts).

The bottom line is this: Same-sex “marriage” is not legal anywhere in the United States of America from Massachusetts to California. Now if only somebody would explain this basic legal concept to our superstar “conservative” leaders, lawyers, and radio-pundits who incessantly swear that it is.

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About The Author

Gregg Jackson is a radio talk show host on WRKO in Boston and author of "Conservative Comebacks to Liberal Lies: Issue By Issue Responses to the Most Common Claims of the Left from A to Z."

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Domestic partner benefits in California
Now that same sex marriage is legal in California there is no need for companies in California to offer "Same Sex Domestic Partner" benefits, because same sex domestic partners could now get married and enjoy married benefits. Right?

So, as I see it, to be fair to all one of two things must happen: either the "Same Sex Domestic Partner" benefits are removed from these companies or "DIFFERENT Sex Domestic Partners" benefits are added. Anything less will be discrimination against different sex domestic partners.

The ACLJ, talk show hosts, and so on (even the ACLU for that matter) might want to start talking about this.

There's a reason they are called...
...the "Supreme" Court.

The courts in California and Masschusetts disagree with you. So there's not much Gregg Jackson or "superstar “conservative” leaders, lawyers, and radio-pundits" can do about it.

Now what do we do?
After reading your article and several others, I completely agree!!! What Governor Schwarzenegger and the State Supreme Court did was completely illegal and unconstitutional! Now what do I do? I'm serious! I've already personally filed formal complaints with the State Attorney General and the Office of Administrative Law about the illegal marriage form. How do I get the attorneys who are supposed to be representing the California Campaign for Children and Families to wake up and do something about this? How do I get the ACLJ to find out what's going on in the San Diego County Clerk's office with the 14 individuals who requested an accommodation so they wouldn't have to conduct same-sex marriages. Some of them removed their request, that's true. But no one knows if they were intimidated into doing so and no one knows if the remaining clerks were subjected to retaliatory reassignment! No one's getting in here and doing anything! Why isn't someone getting the DOJ or the Federal Courts involved in this? What do I do to get someone's attention to this? Please, really, I need some real action steps to take to stop this nonsense!

Hamilton disagreed w you "mistereks"
"Mistereks" says:

"...the "Supreme" Court. The courts in California and Masschusetts disagree with you. So there's not much Gregg Jackson or "superstar “conservative” leaders, lawyers, and radio-pundits" can do about it."

Uh, no "Mistereks" you may want to pick up a copy of the Federalist Papers and check out Federalist #78 specifically. You will notice that Hamilton states that the "judiciary, beyond comparison, is the weakest of the three departments of power" and that they have "neither force nor will but merely judgement and must ultimately depend upon the aid of the executive arm even for the efficacy of its judgements."

Courts have no power of the "purse" or the "sword." All they can do is issue advisory opinions about the constitutionality of the laws and statutes on an individual case basis. They have no enumerated constitutional power or authority to enforce their opinions.

So, Hamilton would disagree with your assessment I am afraid "mistereks" that the court is "supreme" to the other two branches. But what did guys like he or the author of the Constitution James Madison know anyhow?

Same sex "marriage" is illegal in both mass and Ca because the marriage statutes in both states still limit marriage to one man and one woman, and the people are only controllable by the laws and statutes that their constitutional representative bodies have given their consent.And in both states, neither the people, nor their elected reps have consented to same sex "marriage." The certificates that have been illegally issued are null and void and Schwartzenegger and Romney belong in jail for violating their oaths by enforcing anti-constitutional opinions instead of the actual law.

Dave, did you actually read the article?
Dave you say: "Now that same sex marriage is legal in California..."

The whole point of the article is that gay "marriage" is not legal.

You may want to actually read the article before commenting.

No wonder our country is in so much trouble.

Here we go again
'Nuff said

Supreme Court absolutely HAS authority
Oh and the Supreme Court can not directly change the law - that is true. HOWEVER, when they make the ruling the legislative branch (including the Governor) has the responsibility to uphold that ruling and that is exactly what Schwarzenegger did!

And the article misquoted him because when he vetoed the original bill which would have authorized marriage equality he stated that it was up to the people OR (take note of the word OR) the courts to make the final decision!

Very well stated Mr Jackson
Let the heathen rage and foam at the mouth.
No such thing as marriage can possibly exist for same sex people.

Not even possible to be married in the meaning of the word.

Its like putting a wolf in sheep's clothing and call him a lamb.

Marriage is a Religious concept, created by the natural difference between male and female, sanctioned by a religious blessing.

The law did not create marriage to begin with, but only used to insure the existing qualifications society itself has placed on the individuals seeking to marry, a religious rite.

Like age and existing relationships, only the public has the right to decide theses issues.
Not any judge anywhere in the world.

We do not have just 3 divisions of government in America, we have 4.

The people are the rulers and will have the last say


Very well stated Mr Jackson
Let the heathen rage and foam at the mouth.
No such thing as marriage can possibly exist for same sex people.

Not even possible to be married in the meaning of the word.

Its like putting a wolf in sheep's clothing and call him a lamb.

Marriage is a Religious concept, created by the natural difference between male and female, sanctioned by a religious and spiritual blessing.
Cannot be manipulated by fools, imaginations aside.
The Church created marriage, not the law.
Seeing...
the law did not create marriage to begin with, but only used to insure the existing qualifications society itself has placed, demanded on the individuals seeking to marry, a religious rite.


Like age and existing relationships, only the public has the right to decide these issues.
Not any judge anywhere in the world.

We do not have just 3 divisions of government in America, we have 4.

The people are the rulers and will have the last say

If the people are said they cannot place a restriction for marriage on same sex, then they cannot on any other relationship either.
And a man can have as many wives as he wants, or can afford.

After all, if a brother wants to marry his sister, they can make the same claim the sodomites do, and say they are being discriminated against.
Laws of Nature has made the discrimination, not men anyway.

Arrant Nonsense
The Court was wrong in this decision because redefining words to suit the politics of the judges is not part of its function. It has no more right to redefine the word "marriage" to include homosexual couples than it would have to decide that the word "blonde" must include brunettes.

This is just one more example of left-wing Newspeak. It is almost as silly as calling left-wing ideologues "liberal" or "progressive" when they are exactly the opposite.

Gregg Jackson's argument is however absurd. If we accepted his claim that the CA Supreme Court has no power to overturn any initiative statute, it would mean that there would be no checks and balances protecting us from wildly unconstitutional decisions by a simple majority of voters. We would have no recourse if an initiative passed that legalized slavery in the state, or made Satan worship the only permitted religion, or denied education and health care to members of minority groups. Is that what Gregg wants?

It is true that the CA Supreme Court is a disgrace, but the solution is to get rid of activist judges, not to make the Court toothless,


Good intentions, legally clueless
As one who invested countless hours in campaigning for Prop. 22 back in 2000, and then gathered signatures this year to get Prop. 8 (the California Marriage Amendment) on the ballot, I appreciate Mr. Jackson's passionate opposition to the Cal. Supreme Court's judicial imperialism. I just wish he knew what he was talking about. The court clearly does have authority to declare a statute unconstitutional, and it is the trial court that issues the writ of mandate, at the Supreme Court's direction. So this column is a waste of a lot of time and energy. Take a deep breath and focus all that passion on generating supporting Prop. 8, which is our only hope of counteracting this gross miscarriage of justice.

Mr Jackson is 100 % correct
In both, is views and legal opinion.

No court can issue a mandamus unless there is no other prescription of law.
The law had already given a prescription, and done so by the legal due process as precribed for the enactment of law.

"The circuit courts of the United States may also issue writs of mandamus, but their power in this particular is confined exclusively to those cases in which it may be necessary to the exercise of their jurisdiction."

This court had no jurisdiction to legislate a law, that is not in their job description.
If anything, they could say it was unconstiutional, and tell the lawmakers to change the law, but that is it.
They legislated a law, illegally.

"MANDAMUS - The name of a writ, the principal word of which when the proceedings were in Latin, was mandamus, we command.

It is a command issuing in the name of the sovereign authority from a superior court having jurisdiction, and is directed to some person, corporation, or, inferior court, within the jurisdiction of such superior court, requiring them to do some particular thing therein specified, which appertains to their office and duty, and which the superior court has previously determined, or at least supposes to be consonant to right and justice."

Yet Another Anti-Gay Column on TH
What is this, like the 6th week in a row there's an anti-gay article printed of some sort? This article's tone, which is much sharper and much more angry, is trying yet again to rally the ultra conservatives and turn them out to vote in November.

Irratating that we vote, isn't it, Skorp
This forum is for and about normal people and does not promote the peculiar sexual antics of two percent of the US population...it DOES however, publicize those peculiar acts.

And that rankles you. I would suggest you visit a forum more to your liking on the subject of marriage between two peculiar people. You won't find it here.

To SkorpioG
It has been 147 years since the beginning of the American Civil War. And, people are still fighting over minor facts and trivia, playing what I call, what-if history. Anti-gay groups who cover themselves up with the term pro-family are being knocked around like punching bag at a gym. They don't know really what to do next.

Good column, Mr Jackson
And spot-on accurate.

Unfortunately, nothing will be done to correct the situation. Too many in Congress profit from judicial activism to even think about ignoring the so-called orders of the courts.

That and they need a set of b*alls.

Irrelevant
This artile has an interesting angle, and unlike most TH postings, it is quite well thought out.

It is also Irrelevant. The Gays/Lesbians are getting married, the amendment will probably fail and no one really cares.

This is a feeble attempt to ignite energy into the GOP base before the election. It worked in 2000 and 2004. It failed in 2006 and will probably fail this year, too.

My concerns about Romney are this....

Goodridge said that unless the legislature changed the law within the next six months, specific lesbians had the right to a marrage license. And Romney could have done nothing, they would have gotten their licenses, and if other couples wanted to sue to get married as well, they could too.

Romney could have done nothing. He didn't.

No were in Goodridge does it say that MA had to change the birth certificates from biological father & mother to "A" & "B" -- Judge Marshall actually leaned toward the exact opposite saying that the law largely considers marriage irrelevant in parental responsiblities.

So there are the facts of what Romney did.
And no clear explanation from him as to why.
Facts matter, and it is no more homophobic to cite these facts than to mention that Indigo is a color missing from the gay pride rainbow.

God help the GOP if Romney becomes VeeP pick...

Decadence Rises
Isn't there any governor or president with enough cojones to say the Court has passed its ruling now let them enforce it. The perverts and weirdos are undermining our society because normal heterosexuals don't have the cojones to resist them with all the power that they possess.

Sic Transit Gloria.

romney keeps his promises
promised the log cabin republicans he would be more supportive of gay rights than teddy kennedy perhaps obama will tap him for vp

Thank You, Gregg Jackson.
Mr. Jackson -

As a Massachusetts teacher I want my students first and foremost to know the TRUTH, and you have stayed right on course - in the face of "pro-family coservatives" (the beautiful people).

Thank you for never wavering from the truth. You make my job in the classroom easier. The next generation of leaders must know the truth about Gov. Mitt Romney's countefeit marriages, not to mention his 50 dollar abortions.

Greg Sabine
Brockton, Mass.

Nothing will happen.........
until massive civil disobedience occurs by those of any intellectual capacity directed at the bodies of the APA and ABA to prevent the further codification of fraud into the ALIMPC. What is occuring now is virtually identical to the manner in which the National Socialists rose to power in Germany. And sadly, during the Third Reich's decline, the fuhrer's minions blamed the people for giving them the mandate. Is the United States going to continue to allow itself to be ruled by neurotic individuals?

Gay people need help
Gay behavior is not normal and those affected should seek spiritual, psychiatric and medical help. I don't understand why we talk about them, and make laws about them, as if they are another race or classification of people. They are not; they are sick people and should be addressed accordingly. As such, a discussion of a marriage law to accomodate them makes absolutely no sense. Marriage is for men and women, for the natural and normal creation of families. Yes, there is a "normal".

The Court's decision
Jackson's point is correct. The Court's position recognized the Homosexual (GLBT) movement as being political -- not ethnoc or racial -- not even on the basis of sexual orientation. So the Court's finding based on the poltical nature of the Homosexual movement overrulled the poltical authority of the Legilature to act.

Besides this -- the political group comprises Bisexuals and Transgenders who have bo requirement to marry other bisexuals and transgenders! The California Supreme Court was very wrong in its decision. It is a farce and must be corrected by Prop 8.


Court can't overturn initiative statute
"Factualist" (Reply #11)needs to check his facts or better yet actually read the California Constitution. The court, in the words of dissenting justice Baxter,"Can't repeal an initiative statute unless the initiative measure itself so provides" and Prop 22 contained NO SUCH MEASURE. Therefor "Factualist" the court has no power to repeal any portion of the marriage statute. Only the people of CA can revoke or amend Prop 22. Since they have not, marriage remians the legal union of one man and one woman and the licences issued by Schwartzenegger are null and void and Schwartzenegger has violated his oath and broken the law and should be charged for the felony he has committed.

Times Change
I say again that the Supreme Court is the final arbiter to determine the constitutionality of statutes like this. That is why we have checks and balances in this country!

If the Supreme Court were bound to purely "historical" views of what marriage is or whom it should include we would still NOT have inter-racial marriages today! The fact is that as time changes so do the understandings of the constitution. Think about it, 100 years ago the Supreme Court would not have made a lot of the decisions that it does today and that's true not only in CA but the entire country! And I'm not just talking about marriage equality for same sex couples either, I'm talking about ANY decision. Would you expect the Supreme Court justices to make rulings consistent with what they would have done 100 years ago? This country would truly be in a SAD state of affairs if that were true!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Once again the ultra-conservatives want to force their opinions on society. Marriage is not only a religious institution but a LEGAL institution as well. If a religious organization does not want to recognize or perform marriage ceremony for same sex couples that is their absolute RIGHT. BUT, they do not have a right to force their views on society! This ruling only affects marriages performed under LAW - no effect whatsoever on religious organizations!

Same sex couples being married to the person they love does NOT in any way affect any heterosexual marriages so try to get over your hatred and prejudices and realize that same sex couples desire the same rights and responsibilities which comes with marriage that anyone else wants.

And another thing to think about: MANY religious organizations DO support marriage equality for same sex couples! They also have the RIGHT to exercise their religious freedom!!

RE:Court can't overturn initiative statu
Action: if this were true then it would also follow that if the people voted to reinstate SLAVERY and had no provision for it to be changed then the Supreme Court's hands would be tied and they could do NOTHING about it!

What you are stating does not even make sense! The Supreme Court would not be there if there hands were tied in this manner!

People pick on this ONE ruling and try to claim that the Supreme Court overstepped their authority, yet they make decisions MANY times that have overturned voter initiatives which were determined to be unconstitutional!

The reality is that the reason the Supreme Court is being criticized on this ONE ruling is because the ultra conservative religious groups can NOT stand the fact that times have changed and get their hackles worked up because same sex couples have finally been included when it comes to marriage equality!

Religion does not OWN marriage! Marriage is also a LEGAL institution and as I said in my last post, many religious organizations DO support marriage equality - so what about their RIGHTS of religious freedom?!?!?

Radical egalitarianism has got to stop..
... before criminals claim they are being discriminated against by the government for putting them in prison (and the courts agree).

right on as predicted
There are several instances in California already where gay couples are sueing ministers who refuse to marry them. If they want to call themselves married, I dont really care, but when ministers stand up for their beliefs I do not believe there is a right to sue them.

my 2 cents
It doesn't make any difference if all 5 states recognize gm, if all the countries in the world recognize gm.

God DOESN'T recognize it and that's all I need to know

CA SC no authority to overturn prop 22
"Lovesequal" you are 100% incorrect. The SC of CA didn't have the constitutional authority to strike down any provision in the initiative statute. What part of justice Baxeter's dissent don't you comprehend?

"Under article II, section 10, subdivision (c), that body cannot unilaterally repeal an initiative statute, such as Family Code section 308.5, unless the initiative measure itself so provides. Section 308.5 contains no such provision."

Contains no such provision.

Contains no such provision.

Contains no such provision.

Contains no such provision.

Get it? Only the sovereign people of CA, according to their own Constitution, which you may want to actually read, can revoke or amend Prop 22. The people, not the courts, are sovereign.Prop 22 contained no such provision that allowed the court to overturn any portion of the initiative statute. Get it?

With regard to your hypothetical about "slavery" that case would clearly be unconstitutional and the people would have no constitutional authority to enshrine such a blatantly unconstitional statute as it clearly violates the Declaration, and 5th and 14th amendments of the Bill of Rights. All branches of government, including the 4th branch, the people, must all abide by the highest law of the land, the Constitution.


Love is NOT Equal
The love of a father for his son is not equal with the love of a man for his wife. It is different, and rightfully so.

The love of same-sex-couples may be equal with the love of male-female-couples who live together, but neither of those loves is equal with the love of a man for his wife. Marriage has always been defined, celebrated and encouraged by society as a commitment of one man to one woman for one lifetime.

The love that is involved in traditional marriage is "more equal" than all other loves because is the love that most accurately reflects the greatest love; the love of our Creator (So God created man in His Own Image... male and female He created them).

Gay Marriage
Wheather I recognize the GM or not which, I do NOT...Wake up America! You're about to create another minority! That's just what we need right?! Is everyone sleeping?

We Follow the Court's Ruling Anyway
I suppose someone like a county clerk could use this logic, but they'd be fired and any lawsuit they filed over wrongful termination would be thrown out of court. So, even if the author's arguments are valid and his point is true, the practical fact is - neutered marriage licenses are being issued to brideless and groomless couples, and their "marriages" are being recognized by the state government.

Frankly, the column reminds me of the arguments saying we don't really have to pay our income taxes. Just try using those arguments in court and see where it gets you.

Laws of Nature own Marriage
These Laws cannot be amended or abolished men any man, King or Judge.

They cannot be overthrown by a Nation of Judges, they cannot be overthrown by a world of Kings.

They are what they are.
The very foundation of society is the Family.
Laws are passed against evil doers, as there is no law made against doing good.

Sodomy is evil, wicked sexual deviancy.
To call it anything else does not change the Natural Law against this perverted sexual lust.

All men are subject to the consequences of defiling the laws of nature and Natures God.
The sentence on sodomy is death.
Only time of death varies, but is certain.

The destructive defiling of the human body through the lust of sexual deviancy brings the Judgment of Nature, and all who follow the sexual deviancy will pay the cost for their sins against the real laws just as certain as the laws of gravity.

No words, no arguments exist that can change one single detail of nature.
The only thing any person can do against this truth is to fight it with stupid arguments.
And do nothing but deceive themselves and live a lie.
The biggest lie any man can tell, is the lie he tells himself and then believes its gospel truth.
But fools go about deceiving themselves because they are fools




In 1791
When the United States United under the common Law of the Land by the legal process of Ratification by accepting the US Constitution sodomy was a felony.

It was a crime against nature.
Still is.
Every State had Laws on the Book against this Felony of sexual deviancy.
The Founders all supported the Laws of the States, and the Will of the people.
Saying very plainly, the States were sovereign to make and pass law according to the will of the people.
The laws they could not make were laws that did not recognize the US Constitutional Laws as the Primary Laws for the nation.

The people of the States are free to pass any law the US Constitution does not address, and sodomy is not in the US Constitution, nor Marriage.

Both subjects fall under the 10th Amendment.

10th Amendment



"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

"The States should be left to do whatever they can do as well as the federal government"
Thomas Jefferson

Reserved to the people is the right to make and pass laws even laws concerning speech, which they have done.

The Federal Government does not have the power, the Jurisdiction to dictate any law the States are not signed on for through the legal process called ratification.

Nothing has changed in the US Constitution since 1791 concerning sodomy or Marriage.
Reads the same, and the 2003 Supreme Court abomination and transgression of the Law, overthrowing the Due Process of law under the Constitution is null and void.
Regardless what some asinine man calling himself a judge says.
He has impeached himself to defy the US Constitution and just a matter of time until he pays for his crime.

Lawrence v. Texas is a crime against the people of America

If love was the qualifier
For marriage, then everything a man loves becomes eligible to marry.
His dog, his horse, his job, anything and all things he loves would be seen as marriageable.

Moronic to say the least.
Laws are made to punish evil doers, not create rights.

Rights cannot be created by Law.
Impossible, even if imaginations and faith in the power of law is held to by morons.

History of the world is full of men who wielded the power of State to create the laws they wanted enforced, and went about doing what they believed to be right for a time.

As time passed, the Judgment of Natural Law fell upon their heads, and crushed them into powder.

Same thing will happen to all men who think they can make any law that can abolish the Laws of God and Nature.

They mock themselves with their false sense of superiority


Disgusted.
There is no comparison to be made between interracial marriage and single sex union.

Interracial marriage does not go against natural law or Biblical Statutes. Although many bigots tried to read scripture this way. It is not unbiblical for races to mix.

Many states did not have miscegenation laws to overturn. Many states voted and overturned their own bad laws. The Supreme Court had no reason to overturn the rest because most were not being enforced. It was just a matter of time and the rest of the states would have changed their own laws. I suppose this is when the Supreme Court decided to make their power move. They knew the people would not disagree with them on this issue.
For 4 men to make a decision against the will of the people usurping our power is reprehensible. The governors Schwartz and Romni share in the shame by immorally and unethically choosing not do their duty and for all of you out there that do not find the disregard these men have shown for our Constitution deplorable please leave. You are forcing a dictatorship in the shape of the judiciary upon us. If you do not love the way our government was set up by our forefathers you have no business staying here. The constitution is not a ball of clay. It is a solid rock. It can be changed by the means that our forefathers laid out and only in those ways. The people of the USA do not want 1 sex marriage for good reason. I'm offended that my young children know homosexuality exists. My parent's were able to protect the innocense of their children. Please shut up about your sex lives we don't want to hear about it anymore. Homosexuality is disgusting.

Power of a Court has limits
Just as we all do.
There is a power that is unlimited, nature.
No man has any power over nature.

He does have the power to accept the laws of nature by living with-in these unchangeable laws, or he can defy these laws and suffer the consequences.

Many do that, and is their right to do, its a God given Right.
The power of choice is given to every human being.
Choice means we are not limited by any strings like puppets are.
But free living human beings created through the powers of nature.

We are not created by a court, a judge, a king over men.

We are created by a natural process of sexual copulation.
Very strong desire the body itself is born with, if man or beast, its the same.
This is a given desire by nature, not a lawmaker or a judge.
We are created by someone else, and had no choice in our own birth into this world.
We had no say in the matter, and no one asks us first if we want to come here.

We arrive here into this world by some power way beyond our will, our intelligence, our choice.

We have no choice in this and must live with it, or we can deceive ourselves with imaginations like children playing some game.

But real life and the true power of nature goes right on as it always has and always will, until we die.

Then another law takes over, and its the Law of God, the real Judge, who alone has defined good and evil.

Evil cannot be abolished by Law.
It can only be overcome through obedience to the laws of nature and spiritual truths set by the Creator.

Not men.
Just as it says on our nations Birth Certificate.

IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them,...


Paging Skorpio
"Yet Another Anti-Gay Column on TH
What is this, like the 6th week in a row there's an anti-gay article printed of some sort?"

Reply: Dear SkorpioG,

Is there some way we'd persuade you to stick to the truth? Without any stupid editorial?

In fact it's very few posts here with anything anti-gay to add. We're in defense of VALID MARRIAGE according to the law of the land. No one is actively condemning the homosexual lifestyle. Homosexuals no longer sleep in jails or get run out of town. They do anything that pleases them; with never an anti-gay remark in public. They're featured in films and elementary schol text-books; you have yet to see any book burnings.

Why insist this discussion is anti-gay? It's all about marriage. It's about Supreme Court authority and dereliction of duty by bad politicians. If you're going to rant, defend them, not gays.

Gays haven't paid any price at all for their depravity since the 19th century.

Marriage
Marriage apparently is the trigger word in these columns. Gay couples have been living together for years and doing no harm to any of us. The marriage word only makes it legal for them to inherit property when one dies, to visit one another in emergency rooms when seriously ill and to share in the same tax deductions that heterosexual couples benefit form. So what is so scary about that?

Homosexuals have been with us since the start of history. So god must have created them. The line in the bible that homosexuality is an abomination indicates that gays were around in those days. That line was written by some poor old straight guy who recoils against homosexuality as many people do because they can't conceive of being attracted to someone of the same sex. Its just that their brains are wired differently as recent research as described. We now know much more about how the brain works from stroke victims and brain damaged patients. That work has led to techniques to start deciphering the brain.

ken is wrong, the people can take action
Ken (reply #34) says:

"Frankly, the column reminds me of the arguments saying we don't really have to pay our income taxes. Just try using those arguments in court and see where it gets you"

Uh, no Ken the differnce is that the 16th Amendment was ratified by the states and is therefore legal. Same sex "marriage" in both Massachusetts and California was not ratfified by the sovereign people of either state who limited marriage to one man and one woman into statutory law (chap 207 in Mass General Laws and Prop 22 Section 308.5 in the California marriage Statutes) which can't be revoked by the judiciary or executive or even the legislative branch according to the actual initiative statute itself which expressly forbids it.

So the "people" do have legal recourse, Ken. They can grow a "set" and demand that the illegal licences not be issued to homosexual couples and initiate a class action lawsuit against the governor for violating his constitutional oath only to enforce the laws and statutes of the state of California.

It's the Constitution, Stupid
Thank God that this article's author is one of the remnant who understands Civics 101. We just celebrated Independence Day. As our Declaration of Independence declares, government derives its JUST powers from the consent of the governed. And We the People established our state and federal constitutions to ORGANIZE those powers in such form, as to us seemed most likely to effect our safety and happiness. The people, or their elected representative legislators, are to make law; their elected executives are to enforce the law; the courts are to apply the law to individual cases, after correctly interpreting the law's original intent. Thank you, Gregg Jackson.

Lack of understanding
chicaree writes:12:05 PM EST


Homosexuals have been with us since the start of history. So god must have created them.
----
ts:
What God Created is choice.
Men create what they become with-in the God given Choice's.

He Created both Good and Evil.
He Created Law and Nature
He Created the Free Will to choose.
Men create their own choice which one he will pursue.
Good or Evil
Murder was in the the beginning, created by Cain, not God.
God made it possible for Cain to become a murderer by choice.

We have free will to decide which way we go on this life.
It must be so to have the power to become Sons of God, choosing to do good and reject evil.
Despising shame and all wickedness that brings death, eternal death.

Two promises are given, Life and Death.
Good and Evil
You decide which way you go in this world, for a time.

The Judgment is made on both paths.
Those who seek to do right, will find honor and life.
Those who seek to do evil with find trouble and pain.
Its just the way it is, and cannot be abolished by a Judge or a King.

Laws of Nature and Natures God are already set and decided, by the true Judge, the Creator.

Wake up.
Same sex marriage says exactly and precisely what it means. All marriages will be same sex marriage. Whether between a man and a woman, or a man and a man, or a woman and a woman, all marriages will be homosexual relations,(i.e., matingless, genderless, partner A and partner B [e.g., homosexual] relations. It is amazing that EVERYBODY refuses to even consider this as being a possibility when in fact this is exactly and precisely what will happen with same sex marriage--BY DEFINITION! So, am I to conclude equality like beauty is in the eye of the beholder? And if same sex marriage advocates are wrong then what are the consequences and why should those consequences be reevaluated?

If no one else will,

then I will. Same-sex sodomy is an abomination and should be outlawed.

Jackson made a very salient

point about supposed "leaders" of the right refusing to state the obvious about California because they sold out to Romney and to point out Schwarzenegger's duplicity would be to point out Romney's duplicity.

Just as the CSSC cannot make laws, neither can the MSC. On what basis did the two governors act to implement government recognition of same-sex sodomy as being equal to coitus? What laws exist in their respective states that requires issuing marriage licenses to same-sex sodomites? None.

eddie too If no one else will,
Then I will. Adult/child sex is an abomination and shoudl be outlawed. Oops, that's right it is!

But you don't seem to think there's anything wrong with it and defended the FLDS way of life. You even went so far to ask why 12 year-old bodies could pro-create if sex was wrong for them.

You defended the FLDS perverts. When are you going to admit it? I suppose you'll just call me a liar again, because you have no defense. You really do think old perverts should be able to have sex with 12 year olds.

talent scout,

one point, I do not think it is accurate to say God created evil.

PC,

you babbling continues. Yes, I did think the government had exceeded its authority when it removed over 405 children from their parents without any evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the parents. As for pedofilia, I am not now nor have I ever been a supporter. Take your crap somewhere else to spew. Preferably, you will spew it down a hole in the ground where it belongs.

Obviously, you cannot defend Mitter the Quitter's establishment of government sanctioned same-sex sodomy in Massachusetts.

*Gay marriage* is an oxymoron
and absurd on all levels of contract law and
millennia of global tradition.

Maybe worse, we will soon be treated, in the next six months, to all the howling over separations and divorces generated by the rush of CA homosexual couples who rushed into their relationships to get out of them.

Marry in haste and repent at leisure.


So many misguided people...
1. The constitutions of all states were duly ratified according to the people. This includes the creation of supreme courts.
2. The Supreme Court has all judicial powers (which includes declaring laws unconstitutional).
3. In addition, if the EXECUTIVE agrees with the Supreme Court that the people passed a dubious STATUTE, which attempts to usurp the superior laws of the constitution, then the executive has the DUTY to IGNORE the dubious law.
4. Court opinions notwithstanding, scientists have PROVEN (do your own reading) that NATURE INCLUDES GAYS!!! Bugs do it, dogs do it, monkeys do it, humans do it. It is as natural, and expected, as straight sex.
5. Those who quote the bible claim they know God's words. They say, God hates gays, or God says no to Same-Sex Marriage. The same christians should be very scared. The Ten Commandments INCLUDE misusing god's name, worshiping idols, and believing in other gods. Show me where the bible says that God said No to same-sex marriage (SPECIFICALLY! Not interpretation). You can't. So, you're putting words in God's mouth. Shame on you. Time for you to go to church, for you have sinned...you are using God's name to promote your false god of hate, which you worship and believe in, despite God's commandments to the contrary.
6. Life is short. Why don't you worry about yourself? Stop dwelling on other people's business. Unless you plan on getting married to the same-sex, but out. You have your rights, now go enjoy them.

I understand the reluctance
eddie too writes:- 1:00 PM EST
Subject: talent scout,

one point, I do not think it is accurate to say God created evil.
=====
In accepting God is the Creator of evil, but it would not exist without His Will.

I will show you the Lord tells us Himself, He Creates it all.


Isaiah 45:7 -
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things


John 1 -


1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Satan himself is a created being.
He does not exist by his own creation, except through the power of a son of God to make a choice.
Just as all men now have the same power to choose.
Good or Evil
God created both, and gives us the power to decide the issue for ourselves.
Making all of us our own Judge.
The perfect Liberty and Divine Justice for all men.

Each man has great power to decide which way he goes, God Given Choice.

Each man will receive the reward the two choices bestows upon him.
Life found in God, or death found in evil.

chicaree,

it is not logical to proclaim that because sinners exist, God must have made them sinners. God gives everyone free choice. Our choices are what make us sinners not God. Just because a person dwells on certain evil actions until that person surrenders and engages in the evil, does not justify the decision to surrender to the evil act.

Edward,

your argument might have some validity if humans were animals. However, they are not. Humans choose what actions they will perform, animals do not.

If a person chooses to engage in sodomy, they do so knowing that it is wrong.

Judgment is predestinated
The Creator has already predetermined the rewards for all men.

Every man is offered life and every man is offered death.

Life is found in hearing the Words of Life.
Death is found in rejecting the Words of Life.
This is the predestination of God, but each man is given the power to decide the predetermined result of his own choices in this world.

Not God's Will that any man should perish.
And if any man does perish, he does that by his own will.

Not the Will of God
Mankind is a very powerful entity in the universe, given Godly powers at birth.
He is a creator.
He is a judge
He is at perfect Liberty to decide his own fate, life or death.

Before Jesus Christ came and opened to door to life for all men, death reigned.
And all men were in bondage to the fear of death.
This fear has been done away with in Jesus Christ.
The Way to God.
Whom alone is Life and the giver of Life.

Hebrews 2:
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Legal doesn't seem to matter anymore
Several rulings by the U.S. Supreme Court within the last few years have cast precedent aside and turned our Constitution on its ear.

It seems that liberal judges, congress people, legislatures, mayors, governors and even presidents are all going to do as they d - - n well please.

Anarchy is on the rise as our laws become more and more irrelevant.

Pragmatism
The “marriage” debate seems to focus on the effect of applying the “marriage” label to same-sex partnerships. Even I object to that use of the label.

Shouldn’t we, however, debate the rights of two adults to form a partnership with the same legal rights as a married man and woman? It is a given that these partnerships exist, and many exist for as long or longer than man-woman unions. Since the state’s function for marriages is to establish laws for eligibility (age, blood relationship, etc.), property, medical treatment, children and death, should we not offer (or impose) those same laws on same-sex partnerships? These adults are choosing this partnership freely, but are both living in and creating ambiguities that should not exist.

Change the “marriage” label to end the debate. The state is not responsible for the religious aspect of marriage--the state is responsible only for law. In my view, these partnerships should be extended the same legal rights and responsibilities as married men and women.

Is this true?

McCain Wants To Ban Marriage For Gays While Courting Gay Vice Presidents
Is this true?

PSN-In the last week, Senator Obama has been courted centrist and evangalists, but he hasn’t abandoned his liberal values.

Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama, who previously said the issue of gay marriage should be left up to each state, has announced his opposition to a California ballot measure that would ban same-sex marriages.

In a letter to the Alice B. Toklas LGBT Democratic Club read Sunday at the group’s annual Pride Breakfast in San Francisco, the Illinois senator said he supports extending “fully equal rights and benefits to same-sex couples under both state and federal law.”

“And that is why I oppose the divisive and discriminatory efforts to amend the California Constitution, and similar efforts to amend the U.S. Constitution or those of other states,” Obama wrote.

Meanwhile, on the extreme right side:

John McCain?s position on California?s marriage amendment has officially switched from supporting the voters? right to define marriage as they see fit to endorsing efforts to prohibit same-sex marriage by amending the state?s constitution, according to a statement by the Log Cabin Republicans.

I find this all interesting considering that McCain is considering two supposedly gay folks as his Vice President. One is Florida’s Governor Charlie Crist. The other is former Health and Human Services Secretary Donna Shalala, who was just outed by Politico….

read more

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/mccain-wants-to-ba n-marriage-for-gays-while-courting-gay-vice-presidents

Laws concerning sexual behavior
Get made according to the morals of all of society.

When 2 percent of society force their morals on 98 percent of the rest of humanity and call it law, it change nothing.
No more than making a law all people do not die or get sick.

Natural Law ignores it.
All law has a foundation.
American Law is Founded in natural Law.
Saudi Arabian Law is founded in Sharia Law.

Forcing the public to accept sodomite marriage is perverted law.

reply to chicaree


I like eddie too's respnse to your post.

Another aspect: ---Subject: Marriage
Marriage apparently is the trigger word in these columns. Gay couples have been living together for years and doing no harm to any of us. The marriage word only makes it legal for them to inherit property when one dies, to visit one another in emergency rooms when seriously ill and to share in the same tax deductions that heterosexual couples benefit form.

It isn't "the marriage word." It's the nature of homosexual deviance and its evil.

By inserting a marriage clause into their kinked sexual tastes, they trivialize what is TRUE in marriage by nature. If by nature marriage was no more than a bestial meeting between two validly married spouses, the gay "marriage" would be just another equivalent. But marriage between a man and a woman affirms nature. Marriage elevates man to higher esteem than a hog in the barnyard and the sows he mates with.

By the same token; an adulterous man or a promiscuous woman by sleeping around, display the same repulsive behavior that sodomites do. An evil disposition in the act of sexual abandon.

All misplaced sex is an insult to marriage and to spouses.



to chicaree, continued:
Making his/her case:

"Homosexuals have been with us since the start of history. So God must have created them. The line in the Bible that homosexuality is an abomination indicates that gays were around in those days. That line was written by some poor old straight guy who recoils against homosexuality as many people do because they can't conceive of being attracted to someone of the same sex."

You may conclude this foolishness. But a Christian must obey God, not man.

His word is not the particular tastse of any "old man" in the Bible, but a COMMANDMENT of God who created you. (You even admit he did.)

"Its just that their brains are wired differently as recent research as described. We now know much more about how the brain works from stroke victims and brain damaged patients. That work has led to techniques to start deciphering the brain."

Maybe that's really so.

Christian don't call you damned because your brain isn't wired right. You are still a man. By indulging in sodomy and evil acts with another man, you offend God. Not me.

Marriage (so-called) with another man will keep on offending God. You can't clean up salacious forbidden couplings between people of the same sex, by making it your legal right. It may satisfy you both. But it has no valid purpose, nor will it confer on you a blessing of that disgraceful union. You are just damning yourselves.

But living in chastity, you will please God and He'll give you everlasting life. We don't damn or want you damned. You bring damnation on yourselves.


Higene,

the whole issue is whether or not the government should stop sanctioning traditional marriage and start sanctioning same-sex sodomy. I oppose the government equating same-sex sodomy with coitus.

Sodomy is not a term restricted to sex through the "back door" as you euphemistically imply.

I will give it a rest when the defiant same-sex sodomites stop publicly advocating the demeaning and debasing of human life. Any ideas of when that will occur? Then you know when I will give it a rest.

dear higene:


Please don't pretend you know anything about Sodom & Gomorrah. You couldn't possibly.

If eddie too annoys you using the word sodomy, it's too bad. He has every right to speak here in an open forum, same as you. And using the word is accurate, not an "obsession." It's gays today who are all obsessed with the idea of making marriage out of foollatio and sodomy. --Talk about obsession! They go to the Supreme Court rather than letting go of that bone.


Naught Dread (nothing to dread)
I am not insulted by "misplaced sex." Nor is my wife. I do not understand the homosexual lifestyle of the people who have "insulted" you, but I understand your statements even less.

No one can take from me what I share with my wife, and I do not fear the people we discuss as you seem to.

Man does not need marriage to elevate his "esteem" above that of the hog. I think, however, your esteem needs a little work if these people can take something from you.

RMRick

if the government sanctions sodomy and raises it to the level of coitus, we have all lost. To force people to accept the irrationality of equating sodomy with coitus (irrational because one perpetuates the human race and the other only demeans and debases human nature), is damaging not only to me, but to everyone else who expects the government to base its taking away of freedoms on rationality and logic.

You may not understand, but that does not make what you do not understand wrong.

Higene,

I have never restricted my criticism of sodomy to same-sex actors. When I enter these discussions, they are typically about defiant same-sex sodomites seeking to force the government to equate same-sex sodomy and coitus. That has been the primary subject of almost all of my posts on the subject. I agree with you however that all sodomy is abhorrent.

not hard to refute higene


I was saying don't pretend to know anything about the scriptural narrative. It relates to God's punishments; not to Wikipaedia's announcements.

Whether or not heterosexual couples take pleasure in such things, (and some do) it still remains true: THEY have a marriage; and gays don't.

Married couples know spouses are entitled to the kind of foreplay deemed stimulating for --WHAT, Higene?

For the MARITAL ACT.

This doesn't qualify sodomy; a vile act in itself, for anyone.

Not for sport. Certainly not for perverting nature and healthy morals. Examine your conscience, Dear Higene. Don't take anybody's word for this. Your own conscience knows who you ARE, and what you're BECOMING. Do it today!

And "higene" is
Higene 3:10 PM EST
Subject: Regarding Talent Scout
His posts are the stuff of 'the end is coming' posters we used to see on the city streets. I wondered where those guys went with their rantings and ravings. Here they are on Town Hall
====
The reprobate and deviant the bible speaks of.


What its all about...
...The homosexual hate groups want to legalize gay marriage for the purpose of engaging in LAW SUITS. Thats it. Nobody will ever be able to say or do anything they don't approve of or you will find yourself in court and that's what they're after. Other than that these people don't care about marriage as an institution.

Nobody actually believes you were born gay no matter how many times its repeated (...who are they trying to convince anyway?), its all a game to bring down traditional people, ideas and principles (conservatives, breeders, etc). This is just another tool in the kit for that ultimate goal.

BTW...
...if the lefties call you homophobic or racist, wear it confidently as badge of honor. It's clear validation your on the right track.

Factualist
I disagree with you about what exactly the California court ruled, and likely about the merits of legalizing gay marriage, but I do want to give you credit for taking seriously the seperation of powers. It is too common for people to want to give all power to whatever group (temporarily) supports their own viewpoint regardless of the consequences. This is a recipe for long term disaster.

The people who want to take away the Supreme Court's powers to protect rights are essentially reducing their own rights to the hope that the majority of people will never want to take them away. That is a good way to give away ones rights altogether.

As a practical matter though the problem of majority tyranny still exists at the California state level since California voters can get around the Supreme Court by passing a properly worded Constitutional Amendment by majority vote. It is only at the national level, and in states without such simple initiative processes, that rights can be protected against the majority.

higene remains out on a limb


I haven't tried to be triumphalist, Higene. I was really very soft on you. I did refute you and you know it. Since you haven't refuted me one bit.

All responses to article
Wow1 Great article, and some great responses too!

Recently i came across the above article as posted on newsvine.
I hope that some of these articulate writers will go see what some of the chosen news articles on newsvine ,esp. the article; "Homosexual behavior due to genetics and environmental factors says worlds largest study of twins" have generated in comments.
Actually, I need some support for the 61% of the population who voted against gay marriage.
Many responses to comments need to be addresed, by the way the above is currently generating the largest # of responses.

Dreadnaught
Dreadnaught: This doesn't qualify sodomy; a vile act in itself, for anyone. Whether or not heterosexual couples take pleasure in such things, (and some do) it still remains true: THEY have a marriage; and gays don't.

Jen: Typically I enjoy your posts Dreadnaught, but your comments are way off base here. Higene has a valid point. If anal/oral sex is wrong for homosexuals to engage in, then they are wrong for heterosexuals as well. What makes them wrong is that you are completing the sexual act in a way in which God did not intend. You are separating the procreative function of the sexual act when you engage in these kinds of activities. Any heterosexual couple that has anal/oral sex, whether married or not, is committing a grave sin. In this case, it is the act itself that is immoral (this is what we mean by morals being absolute) and not simply based on who is committing the act.



Humans aren't animals?
Eddie too...

Humans in fact are animals, mammals to be exact. "Humans choose what actions they will perform" you say. That's right, just like animals.

Put a dog in a cage with one side electrified, and the other not. The dog chooses the side that doesn't shock him.

Give a mouse a piece of cheese when he pushes a lever, and it will choose to keep pushing a lever.

Hmmm. Give a person a religion that might offer 40 virgins, or at least a pleasant afterlife, and the person will choose to push the righteous lever of hate and intolerance over and over again. And you say we aren't animals?

Wake up II.
The Institution of Marriage has existed, survived, and thrived for a few to several millennia without ever having the concept (i.e., legal fiction, fairy tale) of "genderless human relations". It's same sex marriage that needs the "concept" of "genderless human relations" to exist, not the Institution of Marriage. Conclusion: same sex marriage has absolutely nothing to do with the Institution of Marriage.

Over and over, again and again.
Nothing new here. The same cast of characters. I have my life to live. I have been posting too long on Townhall.

AlphaOmega
Actually, the correct word for any sex outside of marriage is sin.

Talking to gnomes


Alph/Meg is dedicating that last post to all gays/lesbians. It's the best he can do, Kids.

We know a marital act takes place between two married spouses. Otherwise, it's poking, pure & simple. That's what Alph/Meg's mother did, and he ain't mincing words. FINE. On to useful things, from minimally intelligent people. Even if they are perverted.

To Edward, barely a a humanoid, let's say:

Animals don't need laws. Why are gays insisting the law make them "married couples" - - -??? If they're animals, who cares?



paging jen--
Hi, Jen;

You may have misunderstood me; or you might be misinformed.

I stated clearly enough, sodomy is not qualified as respectable foreplay; other things are, ordinarily. When they're a loving prelude to marital intercourse.

Sodomy is merely pollution. It's always a sin, for those who are married or gays. No explanation is necessary.

What if the voters say yes?
I don't personally have a problem with same-sex marriage (I voted against an anti-gay-marriage amendment in my state). However, I don't think gay marriage is a "constitutional right," and I sympathize with the argument that the issue of gay marriage should be decided by voters and elected representatives, not courts.

However.... I note that the elected legislature of Massachusetts had a chance to put gay marriage there up for a vote, and chose not to do so; and I haven't heard of any great grounswell by Mass. voters to turn those legislators out of office. Now California voters will have a chance to vote gay marriage up or down by means of a constitutional amendment, but last I heard it was considered a toss-up whether the amendment would pass or not.

So... what happens if and when the voters in some state say clearly that gay marriage is OK with them? Will the anti-gay-marriage activists who *now* say "let the voters decide" still feel that way? Or will they then be the ones looking for some legal excuse to override the majority will?


Dreadnaught
Animals don't need laws? What kind of statement is that? You assert it; prove it. Have you ever owned a dog? Have you ever noticed how they fight other dogs for dominance? An Alpha male? Animals do have laws.

'Why are gays insisting the law make them "married couples"?' Why are you asserting gays can't be married couples? Don't place the blame on gay people for wanting to fight to get their rights back. Blame people like yourself, who take away rights. How about the law take away your right to marry? How would that make you feel? I bet you'd go about "insisting" the law allow you to get married again.

Face it--the arguments for marriage is about religion. It's not about family (research PROVES kids of gay parents come out just as messed up as kids of straight parents). It's not about procreation. Grandmas get married too--I don't see you taking that away. It's not about societal norms. The divorce rate is astronomical; so too is adultery. It's all about religion.

Don't be a fool, Edward


YOU brought up an animal analogy, not us.

Get over it. If all these people are is animals, why did they ask the Supreme Court to shag the bone for them? They must FEEL human. And they ARE. You play the fool here:

"Don't place the blame on gay people for wanting to fight to get their rights back. Blame people like yourself, who take away rights."


Reply: Gays have the same right I have: Marry someone of the opposite sex. If it's OK for me, why do they demand MORE? I have nothing against you marrying; if you desire a VALID marriage. Find yourself a WIFE. Otherwise, shut up!

You demand an INVALID marriage awarded by the Court. Despite how the people of Calif made it clear-- ONLY MAN AND WOMAN are marriageable. THAT was taken away by YOU, surreptitiously. It's the law!





the same old arguments
I don't live in an idealistic fantasy land. I live in the real world. And in the real world history has shown that marriage has evolved throughout the ages. Heck - love didn't become part of marriage until the Victorian era. And laws on books to prevent marriage between different races existed and was ordained by Evangelist Christians as recently as 40 years ago. Marriage as evolved again to meet the times. As it has done time and time again.

I want to ask the gays here,
if homosexuality is indeed inherited, does that include the homosexual lisp when you are talking as well? And why don't gay females have the lisp?

To Chris
Very few gay people have a lisp and even fewer behave like you assume we do. In fact, most of the assumptions and "truths" imagined by anti-gay activists come out of thin air. Sure there are very effeminate gay people, but that shouldn't be used as an example for the rest of us, no more than the so-called "Reverend" Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist "Church" should be used as the poster-boy for all Christians.

Chris
Why the grudge against Cindy Brady?

Dreadnought Needs a Drydock...
Dreadnought claims the following in Post #40:

"No one is actively condemning the homosexual lifestyle. Homosexuals no longer sleep in jails or get run out of town. They do anything that pleases them; with never an anti-gay remark in public. Gays haven't paid any price at all for their depravity since the 19th century."

Then in Post #59 you do it yourself, like you've done repeatedly for weeks:

"It's the nature of homosexual deviance and its evil."

Since this filth and vitriol carries over to other people and gives them strength to do unspeakable things I'd like to share some incidents that occurred to me over the July 4th weekend, since you claim we gay people can do whatever pleases us with hardly a remark.

At the beach for the summer, this year alone, I've been called "f-ggot" weekly, had bottles thrown at me, and was jumped by two drunk guys on Saturday night. All I was doing was walking down the street. So spare us your ignorant babbling and belief system. Words often carry the force of punches. I got both this weekend.

SkorpioG
How did the any of the people who attacked you ,either verbally or physically, know that you were gay?

To STOK54
That's a good question and I haven't a clue. If you think that somehow by my appearance or clothing choice that I somehow "deserved it" or made myself obvious, please think again. Walk into a Gap or Nordstrom and you'll see what's in my wardrobe. Add a backwards baseball cap, some flip flops and a few days of scrubble gets you a standard young male American on a Saturday evening...

SkorpioG
I was just wondering what may have clued them in that's all.


Several Things
Action: you stated "With regard to your hypothetical about "slavery" that case would clearly be unconstitutional and the people would have no constitutional authority to enshrine such a blatantly unconstitional statute as it clearly violates the Declaration, and 5th and 14th amendments of the Bill of Rights. All branches of government, including the 4th branch, the people, must all abide by the highest law of the land, the Constitution"

You FAILED to answer my question hypothetical though it is. IF the people did pass such a law by MAJORITY vote then does the Supreme Court have a right to overturn it?? If you answer NO then I'm sorry you are a liar. If you answer YES then you have invalidated your own argument! Either way your logic does NOT bear up under scrutiny!

Several Things (continued)
reni: you stated "Maybe worse, we will soon be treated, in the next six months, to all the howling over separations and divorces generated by the rush of CA homosexual couples who rushed into their relationships to get out of them."

This shows your ignorance of the facts! You say RUSHED into marriage - excuse me but where have you been?!? Loving same sex couples who have been together 5, 10, 20 even 50 years or more finally have their chance to be married - something most have wanted for a LONG time and you call that RUSHING! You should be ashamed! Go back and study history; when inter-racial marriage was first made legal there was a rapid influx of marriage licenses being issued - what in the world can you expect when couples are finally granted the legal RIGHT to be married??

So many talk about "sodomy" as being so evil, some (to their "small" credit) even say it's wrong for heterosexual couples. YET, it is still one of the main reasons why hateful bigots want to deny marriage rights to same sex couples. Yet even those who say that "sodomy" is wrong for straight couples still feel that they should be allowed their marriage RIGHT!That along with RELIGION which has absolutely NO business being used as a basis for discrimination!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
And NOT ONE PERSON has answered one key question! MANY religions DO believe in marriage equality for same sex couples!!!! Yet those who would deny marriage for same sex couples do NOT acknowledge this! SO I ASK AGAIN: what about their RIGHT to exercise religious freedom?!?!?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Bigots who use religion as a reason to HATE - as some have stated it is THIS that goes against what God teaches!!

Drop dead
Cheer up ye righteous

This war is far from over, and the rebellion against government into the hands of that eminent tribunal, called the Supreme Court is going to get put in its place and find out the people are the 4th power of government and the true rulers.

quote:
Counties to Supreme Court on 'gay' marriage: Drop dead
'This will be as inspirational
as Alamo, without the guns'

http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=69044

No Court can "overturn" any law!
sorry "LovelsEqual" but even liberal judges have admitted this hundreds of times.

No "LovelsEqual", neither the SC nor any other court in the US can "overturn" or "strike"any law. The judiciary is totally removed from any tampering with laws. To declare something as "unconstitional" is purely an advisory role. It's direct practical impact can extend no further than the named parties in the specific case before the court-not to include the legislature or the constitutional officers of the executive branch.

Example, over 200 plus years ago when the Mass Sup Judicial Court found slavery unconstitional, one slave was freed. The one standing in the courtroom. That is the full extent of the judicial role over the centuries. It is not a policy making branch.

Sorry, you have no clue what you are talking about "lovelsequal."


there's no limit to the gall
Even after a thousand times informed no hatred exists for the homosexual because we need to defend valid marriage; the same false charge keeps coming. That we HATE you.

How is it this hate is all one-way? I never receive so much defiance and mean-spirited arguments from another source anywhere, as from gays. It's rare to meet a gentle, understanding or kindly homosexual in an open forum. Your attitude is invariably hate-filled. Yet I'm the one who was "taught to hate."

Maybe you're "reacting" to other peoples' hatred? Yeah; one or two individuals in TH are abrasive toward gays. But only as regards the activity, not for personal reasons.

There's the rub; YOU all decided you'd defend the disgusting activity, as if it were respectable, or die trying. Nothing to do with personal affront. You love depravity and will make it become respectable no matter what.

Like eating offal at the dinner table. Everybody sees it's all SH!T; but you'll nibble away at it joyfully. You demand everybody else eat the same thing by LAW. Because you love eating sh!t.

Gay Unions
I can't see a thing wrong with a legal contract between two people, same sex or of differing sex. In fact, allowing it is the right thing to do.

My problem with this is totally centered around the idea of their demand that the word "marriage" be redefined. They've made the word "gay" to mean it's original definition, all but unusable since they didn't want to be referred to in polite company as "homosexuals."

So here's the point. You guys come up with a new word to mean legal same sex unions. Tell the rest of us what it is, then go for getting it legislated.

Before you spout off anymore...
Dear "LoveIsEqual" (Reply #103)

Chew on this before spouting off:

The Massachusetts Constitution flagrantly trashed by Romney is the quintessential and most explicit description of the republical form of government in America that is implicit in the federal and other state constitutions:

"The power of suspending the laws, or the execution of the laws, ought never to be exercised but by the legislature..." (PART THE FIRST, Article XX.)

"[T]he people...are not controllable by any other laws than those to which their constitutional representative body have given their consent." (PART THE FIRST, Article X.)

"The judicial shall never exercise the legislative and executive powers (so that) it may be a government of laws and not of men." (PART THE FIRST, Article XXX.)

"All the laws which have heretofore been adopted, used and approved … shall still remain and be in full force, until altered or repealed by the legislature…" (PART THE SECOND, Article VI.)


Re: Drop dead
I see you did not take my challenge in my previous two posts so let me re-iterate:

1) If MAJORITY vote reinstated "slavery" would the Supreme Court have a right to overturn it? See two posts up.

2) What about religious organizations who DO support marriage equality for same sex couples? I'm guessing you would say basically "to hell with them" which is what I'll assume until/unless someone speaks up.

Thank you!

this case is serious
We see the lament of SkorpioG; a misunderstood child.

I really doubt if he tells the truth about the "discrimination" since every post of his I have ever seen was filled with paranoia. Even so; assuming he's driven to desperation by this "hatred."


Why would marrying another homosexual make it better? Correct that; ___pretending to marry____ another homosexual. There is no marriage as everybody knows. It's all a sham designed to stake out some social respectability. Would it make youz FEEL better, Skorpie?

I am not spouting hatred
dreadnaught: I am defending my position and I don't hate you or anyone else. You have to remember that it is gays who are at the receiving end of this. You may choose to call it "defending marriage" but it is us who are being denied marriage.

We love the same as anyone else and desire the same things of life that anyone else does. The ONLY difference is that by our nature of who we are as a person, we find a life-time partner who happens to be the same sex.

And you may not be spouting hatred toward gays personally, but I have been monitoring MANY different forums (not just here) and I see hatred being spewed against gays all the time. Let me quote one in particular from another forum: "GOD hates ALL gays and wants them all to be stoned to death"! This is an EXACT quote from another forum. And I see many similar remarks.

I ask you to consider: if you were being denied something you believed with all your heart how would you feel?

This is where we are coming from.

Action: the point I am trying to make is that the Supreme Court makes decisions many times that over-turns voter initiatives. You may be correct in your "technical" interpretation but not in the practical sense of the word. The point is that this is certainly not the first time that the CA Supreme Court or other SC's have over-turned voter intiatives which were determined to be "unconstitutional".

I would also remind you that the legislature tried "twice" to support marriage equality and it was vetoed by the Governor both times. Why do you think the legislature did NOT resist this ruling?

Lovesequal asks...
"1) If MAJORITY vote reinstated "slavery" would the Supreme Court have a right to overturn it? See two posts up."

I answered that at reply #106.

"Lovesequal "asks...
"If MAJORITY vote reinstated "slavery" would the Supreme Court have a right to overturn it? See two posts up."

I already answered that. Read post #106 and you may want to answer John's response to your comment at #109.

you clearly have not got a clue what you are saying.


P.S. There is also financial impact
To all, just so you know there is also a financial impact to the lack of marriage equality for same sex couples. I cover my husband's health insurance through my company which is taken out AFTER tax and the portion they pay is also TAXED. This results in at least $200 a month MORE that a straight couple would never have to pay if they are married! Add to that the hundreds of Federal benefits we are denied and even the LACK of the RIGHT to care for our spouse in time of medical need! In many states we would not even be allowed visitation rights let alone the RIGHT to make medical decisions. We have to spend an INORDINATE amount of addtional money just to protect us in SOME of these areas and even then if we are traveling to another state they can REFUSE to honor the power of attorney, etc at their whim!

Then there's the children of same sex couples who are very ADVERSELY affected by the lack of recognition of their parent's relationship!

So need anyone ask why we are so passionate in demanding EQUAL RIGHTS?!?

The above are but a FEW of the MANY valid reasons we have for demanding the SAME RIGHT as everyone else..

Once and for all,
we must clearly state what we are fighting for. This is nothing less than a fight for civil rights, in the very same way that other minorities have fought for their civil rights.
For those who have made a half-hearted effort to pretend that the Supreme Court in California, or any other state does not have the right to find any law unconstitutional, or that it's action is only advisory, wake up. The nation accepted Marbury vs. Madison 200 years ago. Legal practices, and the Constitution, are not stuck in the late 18th century, and we American citizens are very much capable of establishing the laws which will govern our lives.
The vast majority of opposition to single sex marriage is religious in substance, and completely irrelevant. For our friend Dred, who thinks that his definition of marriage is a show stopper, drop dead. The definition of marriage is what WE say is a definition of marriage. Your religion has absolutely no part in it. Look at our society. Premarital sex is legal. Extramarital sex is legal. Homosexual sex is legal for all, not only homosexuals. You should try it sometime, it might make you a bit more human. Divorce is legal, although condemned by your religion. Unlike your beliefs, our society is not going to hell, it enjoys more freedoms than our forefathers. I couldn't care less if Washington or Jefferson would not approve of our conduct. I do not approve of their slave holding.
If you go to confession, the first thing you should say is: "Father I have sinned. I have expressed my hatred toward homosexuals".

Court's Jurisdiction
Action,

You are laboring under false information because the author of this article dishonestly misrepresented what the dissenting judge said. If you look at the section of the Constitution that the judge cited, you'll find it is not talking about what the court can't do, rather it says the legislature can change an initiative statute subject to the people having another vote on it.

(c) The Legislature may amend or repeal referendum statutes. It may amend or repeal an initiative statute by another statute that
becomes effective only when approved by the electors unless the initiative statute permits amendment or repeal without their
approval.

The California Constitution is available online. Meanwhile we must all vote to pass proposition 8.

Prop 8
Just remember the precedent you are setting when you vote on adding discrimination to the constitution! Also, there are far more fair minded Californians that you think - polls consistently show that over half of registered voters in this state support marriage equality for same sex couples.

REMEMBER the definition of discrimination: when a group of people are singled out and treated less fairly.... See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination.

One can NOT change the definition of discrimination because it suits them or because the people being singled out is "gay" or "lesbian".

Prop 8 is NOTHING but an attempt to legalize discrimination and for anyone who can vote to actually add discrimination into our Constitution ask yourself WHAT's NEXT? For once the precedent is set, what form of discrimination will someone attempt to add next time around?

Who knows, next time the discrimination might affect YOU! The Constitution is intended to provide fair and equal treatment, to expand civil rights NOT to take them away! The Constitution was NEVER intended to provide for discrimination!!

Prop 8 is the most damaging, Anti-American and divisive ballot initiative in the history of the state! Yet people are so blinded by their disgust of gay/lesbian citizens to even recognize this!

We only demand equal rights, no more and no less!

I still have yet to receive a response regarding a religions RIGHT to support and recognize marriage equality for same sex couples. No one can respond to this w/o having to acknowledge that the two religions are in conflict. How do both have their rights: that is accomplished by realizing there is a seperation of church and state and once the state stops discriminating then a fair minded religion is allowed to support marriage equality while other religions are STILL free not to support it!

Ken is wrong, Jackson right
Ken says:

"You are laboring under false information because the author of this article dishonestly misrepresented what the dissenting judge said. If you look at the section of the Constitution that the judge cited, you'll find it is not talking about what the court can't do, rather it says the legislature can change an initiative statute subject to the people having another vote on it."

"(c) The Legislature may amend or repeal referendum statutes. It may amend or repeal an initiative statute by another statute that
becomes effective only when approved by the electors unless the initiative statute permits amendment or repeal without their
approval."

The author acknowledged this if you bothered to read the article quoting the dissenting judge baxter as saying that if there was a provision in the statute that allowed the legislature to alter any of the individual provisions, they would be able to do so but section 308.5 contained "no such provision."

Again, here are Baxter's own words:

"Under article II, section 10, subdivision (c), that body cannot unilaterally repeal an initiative statute, such as Family Code section 308.5, unless the initiative measure itself so provides. Section 308.5 contains no such provision."

Sorry, Ken, but you are misepresenting what Baxter said, not the author.








babble from the gays
What kind of self-serving babble is this? "LovesEqual" doesn't have a clue about equal rights. Nobody's "discriminating" against a SINGLE gay person here in California. The subject is NOT gays and equality. The subject is MARRIAGE,

Gays complain that heterosexuals are given rights that belong equally to them, under the Constitution. And they're not wrong.

Every gay man and lesbians too-- has the same right I have, and can exercise that right TODAY, if it pleases him/her.

He has the right I had; and I married. The same right George and Martha Washington had, and they married. The Constitution gave Elizabeth Taylor the same right; she divorced and re-married many times, and probably will do it again. The law allows it (ugh).

Gays and lesbians are equal. Marry a person of the opposite sex; you have that right!

If you demand the right to marry a partner of your own sex, that won't be EQUAL rights. That is EXTRAORDINARY, or MORE rights. I don't have that right given me; either by God or the Constitution. Neither can a gay or lesbian. It's just another FARCE demanded by cry-babies. If you wish to marry; do it. Gays, find a wife. Lesbians, get a husband. That is equal rights.

Nobody is keeping that away from you.

.


.


dreadnaught babble
Gays do not have the same rights. You have the right to marry the person you love. Gays do not have that right, because, as I said before, people like you decided gays shouldn't have that right.

Equal rights means being able to marry the person you love. I find it funny that you would stand there and tell gays they should go forth and marry without love, and somehow that upholds your ideals of sacred marriage.

I repeat myself. To you, and those relgious zealots out there, limiting marriage to one man/one woman is about imposing your religious beliefs on others. It has nothing to do with a logical argument.

Question for Edward...
Edward says:"I repeat myself. To you, and those relgious zealots out there, limiting marriage to one man/one woman is about imposing your religious beliefs on others. It has nothing to do with a logical argument."

Leaving aside the main point of the article which is to point out that same sex "marriage" is not legal anywhere in the USA, why limit marriage to 2 people then Edward? Should polygamy, bigamy, and polyamoury etc.. all be legal as well? After all if limiting "marriage" to "one man and one woman" is the result of an "imposition of religious beliefs" and not "logical" (I guess only non-religious people are "logical" according to your rationale)then how can marriage be limited at all? If you say that there should be limits, aren't you guilty of imposing your own "religious" (i.e. secular humanistic) beliefs on others?

The "writ" is legally null and void
Yes, Edward you cite the "writ" of mandate issued by the San Francisco Superior Court, but as Jackson says in his article, the Supreme Court issued no writ and that even if they had it would have been unenforceable since the court has no authority to enforce its opinions.

Here is what he says:

"Moreover, any court mandate or "order" would have been both unenforceable and invalid, since, according to a recent California Court of Appeals ruling from April of 2008, Sondermann Ring Partners v. Buenaventura, the court can declare an action of the legislature unconstitutional where such action exceeds the limits of the Constitution, but the courts have no means and no power to avoid non-action. In other words, the court is not constitutionally permitted to enforce its opinion."

The "writ" issued by the San Fran Suprior court is without legal basis and therefor legally null and void otherwise known as ILLEGAL!

Action...ad absurdum
What you pose is an argument ad absurdum. A fallacy based on the sky is falling mentality.
If you’re so afraid of the slippery slope argument (that is, “what’s to stop polygamy, bigamy, etc.”), I suggest we get rid of marriage all together. After all, if straight people can get married, then oh gosh, maybe gays, and maybe multiple marriages, maybe even bestiality. Oh my.

The fact is, that argument is a scare tactic. Gay marriage has existed in countries around the world for a while now, and there’s no such legalization as you seem fearful of.

If the slippery slope argument was really your motive, then do you advocate murderers, child molesters, arms dealers, drug dealers, blue collar criminals, hate-mongerers lose their right to marry? I mean, God Forbid, we live in a society where someone can commit a crime and then marry. What’s next? Religious zealots get to marry? Obviously, my point is that you can’t use the slippery slope argument. It shows that your motives are not logical, but rather driven by a need to find some explanation, other than logic, to carry your point.

The fact is gay marriage doesn’t lead to other marriages. It hasn’t anywhere else. Above all though, it’s a different fight. Not one that gays have to worry about. But, hey, like I said before, if you’re really that scared of the slippery slope argument, let’s get rid of marriage all together.

Edward You need to answer the question!
Edward, I will give you one more chance to answer my very direct question. If you can't answer it than it will be obvious to all that you can't logically reconcile your belief that limiting marriage to one man and one woman is the result of a religous imposition as you say. I suspect the reason you can't answer the question is because it illustrates the absurdity of the central premise of your very ownn argument.

One more time:

Why limit marriage to 2 people then Edward? Should polygamy, bigamy, and polyamoury etc.. all be legal as well? After all if limiting "marriage" to "one man and one woman" is the result of an "imposition of religious beliefs" and not "logical" (I guess only non-religious people are "logical" according to your rationale)then how can marriage be limited at all? If you say that there should be limits, aren't you guilty of imposing your own "religious" (i.e. secular humanistic) beliefs on others?

Re: Edward You need to answer the questi
Action: I'll answer your question! Marriage is at it's essence the legal (NOT just religious) contract between TWO (repeat TWO) consenting adults who want to spend the rest of their lives together in love, caring for each other, providing for each other, being faithful to each other.... Need I go on. What was challenged in the Supreme Court is that a state (NOT about religion) has no compelling reason to deny a marriage license based on the sex of the two partners! They further ruled that "sexual orientation" is a SUSPECT class and as such used the "strict scrutiny" principle which in the end is why they ruled the way they did. And the REASON they ruled "sexual orientation" a SUSPECT class is because it is an "immutable" trait which cannot be truly changed! THe most one can do is "force" themselves to live the way society thinks they should but that does not change the fact they are in fact GAY! The fact that sexual orientation is an "immutable" trait is agreed upon by most in the medical and phychiatric communities! The main people who continue to deny this are ultra conservative religious people whose main argument is that they belive it goes against God. BUT, that is a religious "belief" and not something you or anyone else has a right to force on us!

(to be continued)

Re: Edward You need to answer.(continue)
For you or anyone else to say that Gay people have equal rights because they can marry someone of the OPPOSITE sex is extremely "stupid"! If we were to tell you that you are free to marry someone of the SAME sex, therefore you have equal rights, your reaction would be the same as ours!! The state does NOT have a right to compel a GAY person to live a LIE and that is exactly what it would be to say that they are free to marry ONLY someone of the OPPOSITE sex!

Allowing marriage equality for same sex couples does NOT change the fact that marriage is a contract between TWO people (NOT multiple) nor would it ever change that! Apart from the procreation bull, relationships between SAME SEX couples are the same as heterosexual couples! And procreation is NOT a valid argument against it as a straight couple is NOT asked if they plan to have children before being granted a marriage license.

Marriage when it REALLY comes down to it is about LOVE and same sex couples love the same way as straight couples!

Again the question about other religions
Why is it that my question:

What about religious organizations who DO support marriage equality for same sex couples? I'm guessing you would say basically "to hell with them" which is what I'll assume until/unless someone speaks up.

No one has taken this question on and it's because you would then have to realize that you can NOT use the argument that marriage is of God and therefore marriage equality is reserved for heterosexual couples, when OTHER religions (ALSO of God) fully support marriage equality. So their RIGHTS of religious freedom are being violated!

Action...
Answer 1. I don’t know why you'd limit marriage to 2 people. Why don’t you answer that question?

Answer 2. I don’t know if polygamy, bigamy, etc should be allowed. I don’t really care.

Answer 3. Let me rephrase this question, because it’s a big one: “How can marriage be limited at all if limiting marriage is the result of illogical religious beliefs?” That question presupposes that limiting marriage is ONLY derived from illogical religious beliefs. In fact, limiting marriage could come from things such as: Spousal rights. Arguments against polygamy, for example, usually center around the rights of a spouse to have a say or right in a marriage…after all, if there are several of you, your voice isn’t quite as loud in the marriage as if there were only one of you. As another example, what about spousal killers? They shouldn't marry. Makes sense…why should the state allow serial spousal killers to prey on spouses? These are rational reasons to limit marriage. They don't come from religion.

Answer 4. I’m not the one asking for limits. You are. I’m saying GAY MARRIAGE should be allowed. That conclusion doesn’t come from religion. It is secular. Gay man loves gay man: gay men should be allowed to marry. Gay woman loves gay woman: gay women should be allowed to marry. Research proves that kids grow up fine in gay households, that the world doesn’t end because gay marriage is allowed, etc

(Now this is the part where I’d expect you to argue the slippery slope? “Well if gays are allowed to marry, then what next?” To that, I'd response: read my last response, I might add you COMPLETELY ignored. But I'll give you one last chance. Otherwise, to take a line from your response, "it will be obvious...you can't reconcile" it with your 'reasons'.)

please, little darlings


If religion isn't your cup of tea, we can understand. We have God to consider; yet our brothers & sisters also have vice,

VICE to consider.

But NATURE; you can't pretend nature is nonsense. Call religion nonsense, but nature means to have MAN and WOMAN the firm foundation of all that's true. It makes __man with__ woman__ BASIC.

Gays are at odds with all that's natural. They are a CLINKER not worth a damn.

Which may not be a personal fault. When they LOVE one another the world is upside down. They wouldn't expect all the rest of the world to go topsy-turvy on account of their morbid taste in sex; would they?

YES. That's what they demand. They earn money and pay taxes; so-- it doesn't matter to them who is basic. VICE is what's basic to gays.







A clinker - not worth a damn
dreadnaught: excuse me but if you don't call this hate speech then you are sadly mistaken! You may not be condoning "going out and killing gays" or something I'll give you that. But some of these statements clearly are "hate" speech whether you like to admit it or not. I don't even deny that you honestly may not see it that way but it IS a form of hate speech.

LOVE is LOVE - gay/lesbian feel LOVE the same as anyone else! I'm sure you or others would have made the same argument against "inter-racial" marriages 60 years ago! It is the SAME thing all over again!

You talk about nature - it's irrelavant! Marriage is about LOVE at the core! Gay/lesbian can not change who they are - the MOST they can do is pretend! And NO ONE has a right to compel us to be something we are NOT, any more than you can be compelled to have SAME SEX relations!! And though it should not matter I'll also throw in that gay/lesbian don't add to over-population. There are SO MANY children needing loving familes and parents to adopt them. Same sex couples adopt, love and care for children the same as any parents! YET, you would demand that we do that WITHOUT the same legal protections you enjoy and take for granted!!!

AND you would call that fair - after all we're gay and are not entitled to even the most basic rights!

Arguments against marriage equality for same sex couples hurts society and hurts children! Children deserve to have parents that are recognized as a FAMILY. If you don't care about the adults who are gay, you should at least care about the CHILDREN but apparently even that it is too much to ask!

Dear LoveEqual, etc,


I understand your personal distress. It must hurt; it has to hurt.

On personal terms there occur many occasions in which NOTHING COULD BE SWEETER than making gays whom you love happy. I have been very close to a few.

Hate is foreign to me. LOGIC has to be faced, even if it hurts us. Gays are not marriage material even when they're truly in love. NATURE has always been indifferent as it concerns variety. It's WASHED OUT, when it opposes the natural order.

Gay couples are unnatural but real. Nature doesn't stop functioning overall. This is a mystery.

If you're Christian you leave it to God. You love the sinner and yet see the sin. Christians have NO license to hate another sinner.

You hate Christians; Christians hate the sins. Not the sinners.

dreadnaught, GREAT NEWS
Your knowledge of NATURE is so far inferior to truth, that you need not worry any longer about putting two thoughts together. Gays are natural; gay relationships are natural; gay marriage is natural.

Not to make your head hurt, but you might want to do some scientific reading. You'll find that research shows not only are gays natural, but get this, may even promote female fecundity! You may owe your very existence to the fact that the human race is full of gays.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080617204459.h tm

dreadnaught
No, dreadnaught I do not hate Christians - in fact I am friends with many! What I do HATE is the use of God's name being used as a reason to discriminate and spread hatred.

To quote you "I hate the sin not the sinners". To use God as a "reason" to discriminate is itself a "sin". MANY spread hatred in the name of God - I QUOTED one of many such posts from other forums several responses up.

As far as logic goes, there is NO logic to discriminate against a same sex couple's love.

And even in your response you have failed to answer MY religion question. So I'll re-paraphrase for your benefit. HOW do you reconcile the fact that your religion does not support marriage equality for same sex couples and YET MANY other religions DO support it?!? Religious beliefs are in CONFLICT and the reality is that you can NOT reconcile it without having to admit that you BELIEVE your religion is more valid than theirs!! And then of course if you do that, then your entire basis of a religious argument against marriage equality goes out the window as a result!!

I raise this question (several times in my posts) to hopefully make SOMEONE stop and think! In the end though, religious BELIEFS do NOT have a right to inflict their beliefs in the form of laws in this country! This is called the "separation of church and state" and is very clearly NOT allowed based on the first amendment to the constitution!


Lovesequal Show me the research
"Research proves that kids grow up fine in gay households, that the world doesn’t end because gay marriage is allowed, etc"

I would love to see your research to support this claim.Which peer reviewed studies are you referring to? I am not familiar with one ever published.

Also, if I "love" two other women and one other man, should I be able to "marry" them?



sexual orientation is immutable Loveseq?
Lovesequal writes that :"sexual orientation"... is an "immutable" trait which cannot be truly changed!"

Care to cite any specific scientific evidence to substantiate your claim?

What about the hundreds of thousands of former practicing homosexuals and others cuaght up in other devient sexual orientations including pedahilia, bestiality, incest, etc..? Or are former necropheliacs and practicing homosexual males, lezbians just in "denial" in your book?


Action, Education fights prejudice.
Here are just a few studies. Enjoy.

McMaster University. "Genetics Has A Role In Determining Sexual Orientation In Men, Further Evidence." ScienceDaily 8 November 2007. 9 July 2008 http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071107170741. htm.

Proceedings of the National Academy of Science. "Symmetry Of Homosexual Brain Resembles That Of Opposite Sex, Swedish Study Finds." ScienceDaily 18 June 2008. 9 July 2008 http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080617151845. htm.

University of Illinois at Chicago. "In Fruit Flies, Homosexuality Is Biological But Not Hard-wired, Study Shows." ScienceDaily 10 December 2007. 9 July 2008 http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071210094541. htm.

Queen Mary, University of London. "Homosexual Behavior Largely Shaped By Genetics And Random Environmental Factors." ScienceDaily 30 June 2008. 9 July 2008 http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080628205430. htm.

Alliant International University. "Children Of Lesbian Couples Are Doing Well, Study Finds." ScienceDaily 30 September 2007. 9 July 2008 http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/09/070928215535. htm.

Action, Education continues
Alliant International University. "Handedness Findings Point To Biological Cause For Sexual Orientation." ScienceDaily 2 December 2007. 9 July 2008 http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071130165501. htm.

Queen Mary, University of London. "Gay Men Navigate In A Similar Way To Women, Virtual Reality Researchers Find." ScienceDaily 3 January 2008. 9 July 2008 http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080103135205. htm.

American Psychological Association. "Equal Level Of Commitment And Relationship Satisfaction Found Among Gay And Heterosexual Couples." ScienceDaily 23 January 2008. 9 July 2008 http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080122101929. htm.

University Of Illinois At Chicago. "Genetic Regions Influencing Male Sexual Orientation Identified." ScienceDaily 31 January 2005. 9 July 2008 http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/01/050128221107. htm.

Just one problem with the studies...
which is that none of them are statistically significantly conclusive that there is a definitive genetic link between homosexual behavior and a "gay gene."

Many of the "studies" you cite also lack a valid control arm as well as flawed therepeutic arms.

There have been many studies attempting to identify a specific "gay gene." But there has been no empirical peer reviewed trial which has successfully identified such a definitive link.

Sorry. The papers you cite are not statistically significantly conclusive. or can you quote specifically which study you cite that shows a statistically significant causal link?

Back to the drawing board I guess Lovesequal for you to find some way to justify the devinet sexual behaviour that so entangles you.

You can be free of it right now like thousands of others have.

Jesus is the answer. He is the great liberator. He will free you if you just ask Him to.