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Friday, November 02, 2007
Gregg Jackson :: Townhall.com Columnist
Is This the End of Evangelicalism in America?
by Gregg Jackson
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  A disturbing sign of the state of American evangelicalism has appeared in the seventh year of the 21 st century in a Townhall.com article dated October 18,2007 entitled, "Why Evangelicals Should Support Mitt Romney" by Wayne Grudem. One of America's most popular evangelical theologians, Grudem is trying to persuade evangelicals to vote a Mormon for president. Wayne Grudem's "Systematic Theology" is the gold standard of evangelical doctrine and a sacred fixture in evangelical seminaries, pastor libraries and Bible studies.  

In it, he defines Mormonism as "clearly a false church." He shows why Mormonism has never been included in the Christian Church: It contradicts major Christian doctrine regarding the person of God, Christ and His work and salvation plan. A cornerstone of the Mormon Church, Grudem writes, is the classic heresy of Saint Paul's day – angel worship. In his book, Grudem insists that an orthodox Christian must practice the theology he reads. So why would he step forward to become part of the Mitt Romney propaganda blitz trying to mislead evangelicals into doing what would shock most evangelicals in American history: elect a Mormon for president?  

It goes from strange to bizarre, considering Romney opened his campaign posing as the uber-evangelical Ronald Reagan while suggesting Reagan's evangelical base are bigots. Romney's evangelists, conservative talk show hosts Sean Hannity and Hugh Hewitt, among others, were much more outspoken. They angrily and repeatedly characterized evangelicals' lack of support for Romney as ugly bigotry.  

Why would a major evangelical leader jump aboard a political campaign that views evangelicals as bigots? Here are 10 important things for evangelicals to consider about Grudem's letter.  

1. Grudem's epistle shows how mesmerizing liberal propaganda has become to the American Right. He buys a lot of liberal myths, including Hannity's bigotry charge. Sounding like Hillary Clinton, Grudem writes: "Have we come to the point where evangelicals will only vote for people they consider Christians? I hope not..." The evangelical bigotry charge comes right out of the 50 year Democrat playbook – "Evangelicals are bigots, racists and anti-Semites!" Why do we need the fairness doctrine when conservatives are making Democrat talking points? The evangelical bigotry indictment is a phony mountain-out-of-a-molehill argument. The immense sacrifice of white lives for black freedom and the fact that no nation has treated Jews and immigrants better than America is evidence that must be balanced against the phony liberal charge of bigotry. The Mormon Church could not have thrived as it has anywhere else in the world.  

2. Grudem would be a heretic in the history of American evangelicalism. The vast majority of Christians for most of American history would have been outraged at an evangelical Christian wearing a sandwich board for a Mormon candidate. As they saw it, America was a Christian nation to be led by a Christian president, who would be led by the God of the Bible. Grudem is out of step with the founding fathers. Voicing the majority opinion of the day, the first Supreme Court justice, John Jay said, "Americans should prefer Christian presidents." Washington wanted to be sworn in on the Bible, which he then kissed and said, "so help me, God." Even the "deists" Grudem cites, Jefferson and Franklin, agreed with Justice Jay. They thought Jesus was the ideal president. Grudem's reasoning is right out of the historically apostate Southern Baptist logic today: we're electing a president not a pope.  

3. Grudem is clueless to the fact that in the 230 year history of American elections, Americans have overwhelmingly chosen conservative Christian presidents. Apparently he's unaware that even in America's most liberal era, the last 40 years, voters elected conservative Christian presidents – or people posing as one. It was Democrats, not Republicans who began the religious right phenomenon with Jimmy Carter who they portrayed as a "born again evangelical Bible teacher." The only way Democrats won the presidency over the last 40 years was with phony evangelicals. We now know Carter and Bill Clinton are as evangelical as Hillary.  

4. Grudem's letter is as shocking and clueless as his book is brilliant and well reasoned. The foundation of his argument for Romney is almost identical to the left wing Newsweek's March announcement of Romney's candidacy: (1) Romney's a brilliant Harvard grad (like Grudem), (2) a successful investment banker and manager, (3) a great governor, and (4) he was savior of the 2002 Olympic games. Grudem says he "disagrees" with Mormon teaching, except that much of their ethical and value teaching is similar to the Bible's. The same could be said for the Koran and the Communist Manifesto.  

5. His epistle contradicts a lot of his theology book. On the one hand, Grudem emphasizes how Christians need to employ theology in their lives and not just read it. Yet even though he deems Mormonism a false church and its angel worship is heretical to the American evangelical tradition that built America, Grudem calls for evangelicals to forget all that and Vote for Mitt. Grudem's epistle is based largely on worldly and liberal reasoning and the biblical reasons he does use are out of context. Let's look at that...  

6. Grudem commits the evangelical sin of "eisegesis" –   reading into the Bible what he wants to see. He cites Pharoah, Nebuchadnezzar and Cyrus as pagan leaders who did God's will. The problem is: God's children never "elected" these people. God did. When the Hebrews cried out for a king other than their God, the king turned out to be demon-possessed. The big Bible picture Grudem misses is the one the founders understood well, and went into their construction of a Christian America. God wants people to elect his son their king. They envisioned America as God's chosen nation with Christians doing God's will by electing godly presidents. The American majority opinion has been: this is a Christian nation and God's tool for good in the modern world.  

7. Grudem's endorsement of Romney is based on arguments that are gullible, naive and plainly wrong. Romney was not a good governor as Grudem insists. He pretends to be against abortion, yet he would never have been elected governor if he were anti-abortion. He has long been pro-choice. His turnaround on abortion smells like a cynical political move that could be abandoned at any time. The bottom line on his term as governor is: If he leaves America in the same state he left the Cradle of LIberty, America will be in a nose dive by the end of his first term. He was secretly instrumental in the gay marriage campaign. He tossed Massachusetts a government health care plan – which includes abortion – as he walked out the door. He helped elect a Hillary disciple as governor and happily presented him to Bay Staters in a public ceremony. The new governor supports gay marriage and gambling casinos.  

8. His reasoning that Mitt's private beliefs and behavior are his personal business and don't influence his political actions is a liberal idea now rejected by voters. It is like the discredited liberal defense of Bill Clinton. His private beliefs have no bearing on his decisions as president. Voters no longer accept this liberal reasoning and they now factor in personal candidate decisions in choosing a president. The idea that Romney's Mormon beliefs would hot have a profound effect on America is irrational and unbiblical.  

9. Grudem's "common sense" arguments for Romney are illogical. Romney has a good shot at winning. He does? His approval rating is roughly equivalent to that of the Pelosi congress, despite the king's ransom he spent. Grudem says McCain and Thompson are "not reliably conservative" as if Romney is. Hello? He was governor of arguably the most liberal state in America. He enabled gay marriage and gave Massachusetts Hillarycare. He helped Massachusetts return to an all Democrat totalitarian state and enabled a Hillary disciple to become governor. Reliably conservative?! What in the Sam Hill is Grudem talking about?!

  10. Grudem's epistle to evangelicals is an attempt to mislead American Christians and is a sad diagnostic of the state of conservative church leadership today. His eagerness to become part of a cynical political Crusade to mislead evangelical pastors and their flocks is a diagnostic of the Laodicean state of conservative Christian leadership. No matter how you slice the Romney baloney, whether it's his religious beliefs that evangelical voters don't accept, or his record as governor of America's Cradle of Liberty, Romney is not a strong conservative candidate and his presidency could spell the end of America.

Co-author Paul Dinger is 30 year veteran Boston journalist writing a book entitled "The Secret Meaning of America."

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About The Author

Gregg Jackson is a radio talk show host on WRKO in Boston and author of "Conservative Comebacks to Liberal Lies: Issue By Issue Responses to the Most Common Claims of the Left from A to Z."

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What a load of paranoid nonsense.
Grudem's ability to support Romney while not agreeing with his religion demonstrates a maturity that people like Gregg Jackson can't begin to comprehend. No one has ever said that all evangelicals are bigots. Just some of them are. And it's really time for the evangelical bigots, however many of them there are, to grow up from the second grade schoolyard and stop bullying everybody else who doesn't have exactly the same religious beliefs as they do.

And, by the way, there is no angel worship in Mormonism. Jackson's assertion that there is demonstrates the fact that the true beliefs and doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints occupy the real universe, and what Jackson thinks Mormons believe occupies a completely separate, imaginary, and bizarrely ridiculous universe.

Mormonism is unique and thoroughly Christian, distinct from the Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant traditions, although it is still true that it has much in common with those other traditions.

Grudem gets it. Jackson doesn't.

Those Mormons...!!!

...just goes to show that anyone who can believe in the "empty tomb" and that Jesus was a bloody human sacrifice for sin can believe in anything.

Thanks to protestants
I want to thank protestants that are supporting Mitt because of his values. I agree as a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints that we are not like other churches. Maybe we are not what YOU define as Christians. So What! Maybe we are just what our church is titled members of the chruch of Jesus Christ. Growing up many evangelicals spat and harrassed me for my beliefs. Parents would not let me play with their kids. I was constantly called a cult member and satan worshiper. Anti-Mormon videos and books were given to me on numerous occasions. Some times my public school teachers spent class attempting to destroy my belief system. This wasnt the best time of my life but it helped me grow even stronger in my faith.It helped me realize how Christ would want me to treat others. I realized that all beliefs including those who persicuted me have strange beliefs like the rapture, the nicene creed, and transtbustiniation. I still respect them for their beliefs even though these are non-biblical and strange to be. I realized that they too had a strange past of black-white churches and racial discrimination. With all of our differences we have many similarities especially in values. I respect those people that with all of our differences support mitt for his values. As the bible says by their fruits ye shall know them. I challenge Mormons and our evangelical friends to try a little bit harder to be better followers of christ and to work towards a better America.

Romney the RINO
The man is not only a heretic, he is a democrat to boot.

If Gruden is an example of the accepted theologians, that shows the biggest probalm evangelicals have is themselves to begin with.

quote:
"Why Evangelicals Should Support Mitt Romney" by Wayne Grudem. One of America's most popular evangelical theologians, Grudem is trying to persuade evangelicals to vote a Mormon for president
--------

I think we are living in the day the Apostle wrote was to come.

2Ti 4:3 -
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Not many stand up for what he believes is the truth in this day, even after he makes a promise he will.

The roaring of the lion scares him to death.
Politics sure makes the ears itch

Are we electing a pope?
Christian conservatives like Jackson appear to want us to elect a pope and not a president. They seek a candidate who gets his marching orders from God, although not the God of the Mormons (or the Jews), just the God of evangelicals. The tone of Jackson's column is that of someone who is absolutely certain that he knows God's politics.

I'm not going to debate TH evangelicals about theology; you folks know absolutely that you're right, so there can be no debate. Rather, I suggest (quite seriously) that evangelicals ponder the possibility that they should use their power to persuade whichever Republican gets the nomination and wins the election (which I think the Republican candidate will win against Hillary) to take steps to create the Cabinet post of Pastor-General of the United States. Only evangelicals would be considered for this appointment, and the job would involve developing and implementing a Christian code of conduct for all Americans.

Now you evangelicals just know in your hearts that you'd love something like this, so get on board, now!

This is embarrassing!
I am a Christian. And I can't stand it when people are so infantile as to suggest that only Christians are fit for public office.

I'd rather have a moral Mormon who represents my conservative positions than a TRUE BLUE CHRISTIAN who doesn't. That's the difference between Mitt and Huckabee. I agree with Mitt. I don't agree with Huckabee.

I admit that, all other things being equal, I vote for the Christian in a two-way race, as the tie-breaker. But, things aren't equal. Huck is a tax-raiser, who has classified people who don't want open borders as bigots. Huckabee is wrong! And, Jackson is wrong in trying to slyly foist this pseudo-conservative upon us with such silly rhetoric.

Not a Christian?
I have to wonder..........what would Jesus have to say about the tempest in-a-teapot. Are evangelicals a cult?

This article is typical
of the evangelical right that wants everyone who says he or she is a Christian to vote THEIR way. I believe it is time for the evangelical bullying to end.

I'm a Christian, but I'm not a member of the religious right. Mitt Romney isn't my favorite candidate right now, but it has nothing to do with his religion. If my candidate doesn't get the GOP nomination and Mitt does, I will work on his behalf and vote for him for president.

It seems to me that Mitt Romney is an excellent representative of his faith. I don't honestly believe any of the candidates would allow their individual religious beliefs to overshadow or deter from the enormous responsibility they have to the American people in the office of the president.

Barret, what you described as your childhood experience sheds shame on many who declare themselves Christian. You are correct. It is by their behavior that people manifest their hearts, not by their words alone.

wow mr. jackson! wow!
townhall is disappointing me by allowing these rants on to the site. that was the most untenable thing i've read yet concerning the mormon/evangelical divide. i know a lot of mormons. and they all seem to care a whole lot about the future of america. i also know that they worry about a future with less god-believing people and more secularist. so i don't really know why you assume that mormons are precipitous to the fall of america. that's fine, your opinions are formed and it appears nothing can reason with you. which is why i oppose a kennedy speech from romney. it will fall upon your deaf ears and cause you to respond in kind with another one of these ridiculous columns.

can i just say something concerning pro-life and pro-choice. this issue is a little more complex than you holier-than-thou absolutist make it out to be. the issue with romney and many like myself is not whether we are personally opposed to the practice and whether we would counsel another on not doing it, of course we disapprove of it. the issue, central tenet to mormonism/christianity, is free-agency. free-agency is absolutely essential in this life, which is why we have a body from which to make choices that affect us positively/negatively. is it better for a person to freely confess jesus christ as their personal saviour or to be forcibly saved? my guess is you believe in the former, or else the evangelical base would be more associated with a cult. agree or disagree, we'll all stand to be judged before our maker based on the decisions we made during our mortal existence.

who am i, to take away the evidence attesting to the way one lived and the decisions they made in this life away from the judgment of god? why does god allow innocent people to die in a plane crashing into a building due to the wrong decisions of others? it is because their deaths, as a result of the poor decisions of another will stand as a witness against their murderer....

... thoughts continued
now, that doesn't exactly make up my mind on the issue of abortion, because their are instances where we as a societal norm take away the free agency of others. in the case of knowing that a murder will occur, we obviously step in a don't allow the potential killer to realize his decision to murder, and i can see how this could be the case with a mother premeditating the abortion of a life inside her. unfortunately, we can't force people to agree on when exactly it becomes a life. i believe at conception.
so this is where my personal moral journey on this issue has taken me and i believe this might be where a good number of people stand because the absolute belongs to god. and i came to this stance a few months ago when my brother asked me a simple question. if faced with the decision of your wife dying due to complications or an abortion, what would you do? i don't really know what i'd do. it would ultimately be up to her since she is the one that is involved the greatest in the ordeal. if she chose to live and abort the baby, how could i question her, or be disappointed with her for that matter? if she did choose to have the baby and died, my other children will have lost their mother and now i'm alone to raise them all. this issue is not easy! so i oppose abortion, except in the case of incest, rape or the life of the mother is in danger making me in effect pro-choice i guess. i can't in good conscience guilt a woman for not having a baby that was conceived in rape, or incest. that is their free-agency to embrace.


... final thoughts.
so what we have is a bunch voters thinking they have absolutes on this issue when in all reality they probably don't, posing this complicated question to a politician who has to make it magically absolute with a "pro-choice, pro-life" label. what has drawn romney further onto the pro-life side is the dangerous direction that science is headed with the matter of farming embryos for testing purposes and his desire to curb that already slippery-slope. so bravo mr. grudem for being smarter than you counterpart mr. jackson.

Wayne Grudem is a great theologian...
...but an amateur political pundit.

He writes theology well.
He writes politics amateurishly.

How difficult is this to understand?

In what way does this speak, even a little, to Evangelicalism as a form of Christianity -- that our professional theologians are amateur politicians at best? To me, it says something good; it says that Evangelical theologians don't succeed because of their political savvy. This is a GOOD thing.

So Wayne Grudem isn't very convincing writing political commentary. That doesn't spell the end of Evangelicalism, merely the end of Wayne Grudem's career as a political pundit.

unChristian: Skepticism and Frustration
The Barna Group, September 24, 2007

...Even among young Christians, many of the negative images generated significant traction. Half of young churchgoers said they perceive Christianity to be judgmental, hypocritical, and too political. One-third said it was old-fashioned and out of touch with reality.

Today, the most common perception is that present-day Christianity is "anti-homosexual." Overall, 91% of young non-Christians and 80% of young churchgoers say this phrase describes Christianity. Non-Christians and Christians explained that beyond their recognition that Christians oppose homosexuality, they believe that Christians show excessive contempt and unloving attitudes towards gays and lesbians. One of the most frequent criticisms was that the church has made homosexuality a "bigger sin" than anything else...

David Kinnaman, who is a 12-year-veteran of the Barna team, was surprised how much their perceptions were rooted in specific stories and personal interactions with Christians and in churches. When they labeled Christians as judgmental this was not merely spiritual defensiveness. It was frequently the result of truly ‘unChristian’ experiences. We discovered that the descriptions that young people offered of Christianity were more thoughtful, nuanced, and experiential than expected."

Jesus told us to expect hostility and negative reactions. That is certainly nothing new. But the issue is what we do with it. Is it a chance to defend yourself and demand your rights? Or is it an opportunity to show people grace and truth?

When the Apostle Paul advises believers to 'live wisely among those who are not Christians' and to 'let your conversation be gracious and effective,' (Colossians 4:5-6, NLT) he could be writing no better advice to committed Christians in America."

http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUp dateID=280

BARNA: Christianity becoming Unchristian
The Barna Group, 9/24/2007

Among young non-Christians, nine out of the top 12 perceptions were negative. Common negative perceptions include that present-day Christianity is judgmental (87%), hypocritical (85%), old-fashioned (78%), and too involved in politics (75%) - representing large proportions of young outsiders who attach these negative labels to Christians. The most common favorable perceptions were that Christianity teaches the same basic ideas as other religions (82%), has good values and principles (76%), is friendly (71%), and is a faith they respect (55%).

Even among young Christians, many of the negative images generated significant traction. Half of young churchgoers said they perceive Christianity to be judgmental, hypocritical, and too political. One-third said it was old-fashioned and out of touch with reality.

http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUp dateID=280

Hopefully
Hopefully this is the end of bible thumpers who want to force their ethics on the rest of us. Anyone remember "live and let live"?

Vote your conscience
That is really all he is saying, in a very wordy and convoluted way.

If an evangelical/Roman Catholic/Christian/Jew can set aside her beliefs and her values and vote for someone who violates most of them, and her conscience gives her no trouble about that, she should go for it.

If her conscience says to stand for what she believes and vote accordingly, she should go for that.

I did not vote for either Gerald Ford or Jimmy Carter because my conscience would not permit me to support either one. Should the choice this time be between Mitt and Hillary, I will again vote for someone else.

There are simply some things that, to my individual conscience (especially as I have been a member of the Mormon church) that are worse than others. And frankly, what Jimmy Carter's election did for the Democratic party (although Mama blames me for his presidency to this day) was a bad four years but it led to a very large backlash that in the end was good for the country.

All he is saying is give your conscience a chance. What's wrong with that?

What I said about Wayne Grudem...
...goes for Gregg Jackson, as well. In spades, and doubled.

The best thing a Christian can bring to politics is virtue and clear, moral thinking. Given those two, it's relatively easy to find one's way in the world of politics. Bringing religious tests to politics, on the other hand, merely creates odd dilemmas.

I'm a devoted, serious, theologically literate, mature, Bible-saturated, born-again Protestant Christian. I'd vote for Mitt Romney in a heartbeat if I thought he was the best man for the job. I don't give a rat's patoot what religion he is. If he's nominated by the Republicans, I *will* vote for him. I won't vote for him in the primaries because he's not the best candidate, imho.

Historical note: I was less mature 30 years ago than I am today. In 1976, I voted for Jimmy Carter because he was a born-again Christian like I was. Even young and naive as I was, I regretted that vote pretty quickly. That was the last time I worried about a candidate's publicly-declared religion.

Mitt, Dems and RINO's
As a Christian, conservative-American, Southerner, and Texan, I ain't votn' fer Mitt, for the same reason I ain't votn' fer Rudy, Hitlery, the Breck Girl, or any other leftist or lib of whatever party.

James Earl was the last "fool me" President for me, though W has been disappointing too (though in the "big gummint, open boarders" kinda way).

It is too far from the election and the primary's to worry, Huckabee is rising, McInsane is too, Brownback is gone as well as Tancredo, let's see whose left after Christmas and then start the decision process. I'm voting my values.

I don't support Mitt or Mormonism, BUT -
Mitt's not necessarily my choice for the Republican nomination (I don't really begin to pay attention until the state party apparatuses go through the caucus and primary process). Mormonism is definitely not a Christian religion (they clearly deny the Deity of Christ). Go ahead and call me a bigot, just know that you're cheapening the word "bigot" and voiding its true meaning.

That being said, if Romney gets the nomination, he has my vote; period. When the choice is between a person who is entrenched in a religion because it's a family tradition and a person who is entrenched in a political ideology that will harm my country's security and its economy, I will choose the former.

I encourage my fellow-evangelicals to do the same.

Gregg Jackson should preach, not pundit
Preaching the conservative "gospel" has nothing to do with the authentic gospel. Mr. Jackson needs to decide between being a conservative Jesse Jackson - combining politics and religion - or being Gregg Jackson, political pundit.

His combining of the two is rather distasteful.

No, they don't deny the deity of Christ.
Mormons do NOT deny the deity of Christ. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and I know what I'm talking about. I quote from the title page of the Book of Mormon which declares its purpose: "...and also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nations..."

No group of people on the earth believes more fervently in the divinity of Christ than members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We are Christians, and this fact is not negotiable with us.

If you still say that Mormons are not Christians after they tell you they are, you are a bigot.

Eichendorff
I think you are wrong. Most people who say Mormons are not Christians just have a different definition of the term "Christian" than members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter Day Saints and I do not think this is bigotry, and I agree with phileo in that it cheapens the word. If someone says we are not Christian, and then discriminates against us or unjustly forms opinions about us, that is bigotry.

As you well should be aware, we believe in worshipping according to the dictates of our own conscience, and believe in allowing all men the same.

If someone believes that a Christian must believe in Christ being divine in sense of the Nicene Creed tradition to be a Christian, then that is up to him or her. And we can agree to disagree that a Christian is someone who believes Christ is divine in the sense that he is our Savior, and the only way to salvation, and the only begotten of the Father; and who believes in trying to follow his precepts, that is up to us.

Although probable, I'm not even sure that someone is a bigot just because they will not vote for a candidate solely because of their religion. Many more people vote from even worse ignorance and misinformation. And that is their right to think those things and vote those ways, even though they are ignorant and misled.

inkling
Probably the only thing I would disagree with you on -- and I rarely disagree with you -- is the implication that Christian theologians are being the most Christian when they are the most clueless about politics. You can rest assured, however, that I won't be calling you any names over this. :-)

It helps sort everything out to keep in mind that politics can tolerate any amount of rank BS, from any quarter. It's impossible for any proponency to embarrass politics, which by its nature is silly and ridiculous.

But taking too political an approach IS an embarrassment to Christianity. Jesus warned his disciples to be wise as serpents yet gentle as doves (Matthew 10:16). I don't think we demonstrate wisdom by having no sense of the exigencies of human politics -- rather, we lack wisdom when we think God's power is constrained or diminished by them.

A good Christian can understand politics quite well. It's when he thinks of politics -- a flawed, blunt, ephemeral human tool -- as a substitute for God's work, one-on-one, with each of us, that a Christian makes his error.

Thanks to Non-Christians for Supporting
So as a Christian I can only support Christian candidates? I find it interesting that lots of solid Republican Mormons and Jews voted for solid Republican candidates for many offices, up to and including President. Yes even though they may have disagreed with them theologically. Because they were the best candidates.

We Christians should vote for the best Republican candidates, regardless of theology. My perfect candidate would be a born-again Christian and conservative and smart and experienced, etc. But since none of the candidates is perfect, I will vote for the best one. Right now I am leaning toward Mitt, but we will have to see.

Regardless, I will support any Republican who is nominated, against Hillary. Those who decide to sit out the General Election in protest of the absence of a perfect candidate should be the first ones to feel the tax hikes she will slam the nation with.

Mr. Jackson...

Why so down on Mormons? Many of us would prefer a theist to a naturalist any day.

The welfare of America does not rest with the next President. It is the health of its churches that will determine the future of America.

As far as the end of evangelicalism in America…Christ has promised to build His Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. The Church was here long before America was born. It will continue with or without America.

Why support any group?
Consider this...

Evangelicals, in droves, support Jews and the State of Israel. Jews who do not believe in Jesus at all, a majority of whom are liberal Democrats. Now millions of intolerant Evangelicals won't support Mitt Romney because he is Mormon. Mormons, take the Bible literally, accept Jesus as the Savior of the World, are pro-life and pro-family.

Gregg Jackson and millions like him cannot see the forest from the trees. The real reason why Evangelicals supports Jews and not Mormons is because Mormons actively proselytize and Jews don't. So here's a good way to identify a bigot from a Christian -- if he supports Israel and opposes Mitt, then that minister is concerned mainly on how much lands on his plate when Service is over and not about this great country.

AudiR10
I usually agree with your posts because they are reasoned, logical and well thought through and well phrased, but I am not sure which article you read. And I don't think we read the same one. This is no writer telling readers to "vote their conscience." Just the opposite. He is clearly telling people what to think, and in the process, what not to believe.

Jackson calls Grudem's letter "shocking and clueless." Or how about this? "Grudem's endorsement of Romney is based on arguments that are gullible, naive and plainly wrong." Or this: "Grudem's epistle to evangelicals is an attempt to mislead American Christians and is a sad diagnostic of the state of conservative church leadership today." That is not, in my opinion, someone who is advocating "vote your conscience."

It's important for you to understand that many of us are not "setting aside our beliefs" in order to vote for someone -- which is kind of a smarmy insinuation, although perhaps it just sounds that way and you didn't mean it to sound that way. We ARE voting our beliefs. You might not agree with them. The religious right or the moderate left might not agree with them, but for most of us, we vote entirely in accordance with our consciences, not in violation of them or setting aside belief systems.

It is my belief that Gregg Jackson is a typical bully of the religious right. "Do it my way or you're not a real Christian." And frankly, I'm fed up with people telling me that. As someone said as the start of this thread -- we are not electing a pope here.

Mormons and Government
Mormons adhere to their scriptures, all of them, including the Bible. They accept a very distinct line between their state and their church:

Mark 12:17 Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.

One of the uniquely Mormon passages addresses the question of how people in general, and Mormons in particular, should relate to their governments:

Doc&Cov 134:2 We believe that no government can exist in peace, except such laws are framed and held inviolate as will secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life.

3 We believe that all governments necessarily require civil officers and magistrates to enforce the laws of the same; and that such as will administer the law in equity and justice should be sought for and upheld by the voice of the people if a republic, or the will of the sovereign.

4 We believe that religion is instituted of God; and that men are amenable to him, and to him only, for the exercise of it, unless their religious opinions prompt them to infringe upon the rights and liberties of others; but we do not believe that human law has a right to interfere in prescribing rules of worship to bind the consciences of men, nor dictate forms for public or private devotion; that the civil magistrate should restrain crime, but never control conscience; should punish guilt, but never suppress the freedom of the soul.

Mormons send missionaries to convert people into their faith.

Socialists send mercenaries to coerce people into theirs.

See the difference?

Governments run schools to indoctrinate young
citizens into "knowing" the state is their
ultimate parent.

Le
==
Please visit http://www.schoolandstate.org

Tragedy and Irony Part 1
I am not sure how Mitt Romney can win the GOP Presidential Primary with the gulf he has to jump with Evangelical/Christians. For 150 years the majority of Christian pastors have been preaching from their pulpits that “Mormons” (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) are a “cult”. It is almost as if this belief about the LDS faith has become a doctrine just as much as faith, baptism, repentance, forgiveness, and grace. I read the following comments the other day which put this all in perspective for me.

"Mormonism is either totally true or totally false. If it's true, every other religion in America is false." To be tolerant of Mormonism is to put evangelical Christianity at risk. And to put a Mormon in the White House would be to place a stamp of approval on that faith.” (John L. Smith, a Southern Baptist who runs Utah Mission--an organization that tries to convert Mormons--told Christianity Today)


Tragedy and Irony Part 2
Is there a faction of people in America that are voting out of “fear” rather than out of “faith” as is the overwhelming claim???? Fear can cause all kinds of emotions within an individual. How does one over come fear? Amy Sullivan writes: “The first time I ever heard about Mormons was in fifth grade, sitting in a basement classroom of my Baptist church, watching a filmstrip about cults. Our Sunday school class was covering a special month-long unit on false religions; (Why?) in the mail-order curriculum, Mormonism came somewhere between devil worshippers and Jim Jones. Although most of the particulars are lost to me now, one of the images remains in my mind: a cartoon of human figures floating in outer space (an apparent reference to the Mormon doctrine of "eternal progression") that appeared on the screen next to our pull-down map of Israel. Even at age 10, the take-away message was clear. Mormons were not like us, they were not Christian.” Proverbs 22:6 “Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.” Would it not be better that we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.
“The tragedy--or, depending on your point of view, the irony--is that Mitt Romney may just be the most appealing candidate Republicans can field in 2008, the one most likely to win the White House by shoring up social conservatives and rallying business interests without frightening swing voters. Yet the modern GOP's reliance on evangelical voters and its elevation of personal religiosity--strategies which have served the party so well in recent years--may doom the chances of this most promising candidate. Or, to put it in evangelical terms, it might be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for Mitt Romney to win the Republican nomination.” http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2005/0509.sulliv an1.html

Tragedy and Irony Part 3
I also read the following blog comment and found my own feelings expressed except that I am a Republican and could not vote for Hillary and I would add to Romney’s qualifications “ he has lived an exemplary life of Christian values more purely than many, even many Christians who will get to vote. That is an irony.

“I’m an independent. I vote based upon a person and principles I hold. I love America and that is why I’m writing. All Republican Party members listen carefully. There is only one candidate I would vote for on your side right now. Mitt Romney. If you put up anyone else you’re done. He is your only real candidate. I know Mormonism is weird but get over it. Bigotry never wins. It wrong and no Democrat would ever dare to look like one. I want someone that can fix America’s bureaucracy and the only one with proven ability on both sides is Gov. Romney. You have the best Champion I ever seen. His record, education, wisdom, foresight, experience, abilities, personality are all amazing. I’ve heard him speak and he lights a fire in my belly and a desire in my heart for America. But, if you choose someone else that is okay I’ll vote for Hilary or Barrack. Hope the information is helpful.”
Posted by: taylor | October 26, 2007 2:18 PM





Support
I have review a lot of polls over the months. When you get right down to it all but a hand full of White Evangelical/Born Agains will support Romney when he gets the nomination.

His primary weakness is not with Evangelicals especially in the general election. His primary weakness is with rural and "good ole boy" voters who are not religious. Further, most of those are in late primary states.

Romney has very good support from more religious voters. People who will support Romney in the general election are not bigots.

In the primary there are those who would prefer someone who is more like them. Someone who shares their religious beleifs. That is understandable.

Jackson's article is pure and simple politics and nothing more. He is doing what Gruden has done. He has taken a political stand. However, Jackson has wrapped his political stand in his religion. He does not seem to understand the difference between religion and politics.

Please keep in mind that if you ask voters if they are willing to support someone for President who is an Evangelical, a large percentage refuse. Evangelicals are almost as unpopular as Mormons if you ask the question in that manner.

I don't Get It
If a candidate had no religious affiliation, but was a good, moral, fiscally responsible, patriotic candidate, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

The Constitution forbids religion from crossing the line; you’ve got a congress for checks and balances.

I’m beginning to wonder myself if there is something wrong with those opposing a Mormon candidate.

I do not believe that Mormonism can be viewed as part of the Christian faith, based upon doctrinal beliefs.

But, we are not electing a pastor for goodness sake.

I’m more concerned about Romney’s past positions, which have changed just prior to announcing his candidacy.

Let’s get our priorities in order here.

The Christian evangelicals are not going to get there favorite evangelical to run for president. If they could they are not going to find enough Christians who agree with him.

Che Midas
As far as I'm concerned, I have the right and the authority to define myself as a Christian. I am the world's authority on what I believe, whom I worship and how I worship. I am a Christian, and every other Latter-day Saint is a Christian as they understand the concept from the New Testament. There is no possible objective test for Christianity one could devise from the Bible alone that Latter-days Saints cannot pass with a perfect score.

Biblical Christianity is Mormonism and Mormonism is Biblical Christianity. The whole of the subject matter of the Book of Mormon has the divinity of Christ and His atoning sacrifice and his resurrection as its central theme. The Bible is stronger because of the existence of the Book of Mormon. No one has the right or the authority to say I am not a Christian. I know I am a Christian, and above all Jesus himself knows I am a Christian. I will never back down from this truth and will never renounce my faith in Christ.

Anyone who disputes me after I have told them I am a Christian is a contemptible bigot.

Pants on Fire
Here's the good news: Evangelicals don't even need to argue about whether it is okay to support a Mormon. All they ---or the rest of us---need to do is focus on Mr. Jackson's point number 7 and apply the words "liar" and "opportunist." It is abundantly clear by now that Romney will make just about any claim concerning his positions and beliefs if those claims will further his ambitions. After eight years of you-know-who, we hardly need someone in the White House who has a less-than-friendly relationship with the truth.

GOP can't nom. Romney anyway
The MSM will have a seizure over Mormonism and crucify Mitt for having any religion.

The entire campaign would center on religion and accusations of bigotry and ahteism and none of the campaign issues like Social Sec. and border security that need to be addressed

johninoregon
Baloney.

Self professing
Please keep in mind that some Evangelical type Ministers routinely claim that most self professed Evangelicals and Born Agains are heretics and not really saved. They denounce other Evangelical type Ministers for disagreeing on all sorts of interpretations of various verses.

Given that perspective it is only natural that they would vocally disagree with Mormon Doctrine.

The doctrinal differences will continue but in the meantime we need to elect someone who will protect the family, sustain basic constitutional rights (religion), stop illegal immigration, manage the economy, protect the country and make government more efficient.

Romney has a much better chance of getting elected that Huck or Fred. We can argue about doctrine later but now is the time to win an election.

If you can support a Jewish candidate or someone who does not attend church you can just as easily support Romney.

Religious Intolerance
Religion, even Christianity (albeit a twisted, false Christianity), has been used throughout time to spread hatred and intolerance of others. We see it most obviously today with the Islamic extremists who want to kill innocent people in their attempts to create radical Islamic states. In the past, we saw it in the crusades.

I find it alarming to see such flagrant and repeated intolerance of religious belief on Townhall.com, one of my favorite sites. It seems to me that good minds should be able to agree on finding respect for religious freedoms and for people of different faiths.

I never thought that I would see so many Townhall.com columnists disqualify their support for candidates because of anything other than differing political ideologies and values.

Let me just say that one of my values is to respect the religious beliefs of others. Since Gregg Jackson does not share this value, I would never vote for him.

Eichendorf/phileo both right/wrong
"Mormonism is definitely not a Christian religion (they clearly deny the Deity of Christ)."

"Mormons do NOT deny the deity of Christ."

The first statement is theologically correct, the second statement is technically correct. Mormons believe that Jesus is God insomuch as they believe we can ALL someday become Gods - if we're Mormons. The Christians take the view that there is ONE God, Eternally existent in Three Persons, Father-Jesus-The Holy Spirit. Therefore the Mormons belief system is OUTSIDE of the Christian understanding of God and Mormons cannot be considered Christians.

And people with differing opinions are not bigots. If they were, we could call Mormons bigots because they believe that any baptism outside the Mormon church is "invalid because the one baptizing did not have the proper authority." But I would never call a Mormon a bigot; I just wouldn't call him a Christian.

BTW, I will vote for Mitt, too, if he's nominated.

Jackson stuns reason with his contempt
After reading this, and making mental notes refuting each and every point I stepped back to look at the larger picture. Jackson not only hates Mormons, he viscerates anyone who would support them. Why conduct a religious test for office and apply it ONLY to Mormons? How does this threaten the existence of Evangelicals? The argument is wholly unreasonable.

We have two political parties that are embraced by people of many different faiths. We have had presidents of many different faiths in office and no harm has come to any anyone because of their faith*. This is as it should be.

No other nation on earth would allow the creation of multiple religions as ours has. Its a marvelous thing to behold. Many faiths living together, governing together, serving each other in communities across the USA. This is how we do it in America.

The Middle East cannot understand our way. Each sect or religion cannot live peacefully with the other; each must have their own state, their own government, and a sturdy dividing wall. This would be unAmerican. Is this what you want Jackson, that only one religion, yours, may hold office?

*I wish to clarify that the Mormons were harmed by a certain President of the US who refused to affirm their rights under the constitution and allowed others to drive them literally outside the borders of the US or be exterminated. The governor of Missouri issuing the extermination order that was only rescinded in the 1970s.

odds
In the Vegas Odds to win the nomination, Rudy is at about 40 and Romney is at 28+.

Ron Paul is next at 8, followed by McCain at 7+ and Fred at 7. Huckabee is last at 5+.

Ron Paul has a better chance of getting the nomination than Fred or Huck. Now is the time for the Christian Right to put their doctrinal differences aside and get behind Romney before Rudy anoints himself.

Romney has a realistic chance of beating Rudy in IA, NH, MI, NV and SC. By then Romney will win FL and go on to dominate Super Tuesday. Romney is the only candidate who has the money and the organization to beat Rudy.

Romney's head to heads vs Hillary have been improving as more voters get to know him. They will keep improving as he gets closer to the nomination.


Show Me
Show me one state that Huck can realistically win?

Fred may still have some support in national polls due to his image from Law and Order but his actual (virtual) campaign has been causing his support in early states to drop. If Fred keep this up he may not win TN (not winner take all unless one candidate get 50%).

Show Me
Show me one state that Huck can realistically win?

Fred may still have some support in national polls due to his image from Law and Order but his actual (virtual) campaign has been causing his support in early states to drop. If Fred keeps this up he may not win TN (not winner take all unless one candidate get 50%).

Typical Evangelical Attitude.
Why is everyone on here bashing Mr. Jackson?

All he is doing is displaying the rigid intolerance that evangelicals have become famous for!

They wonder why they are held in contempt and sneered at by nearly every other group out there. It's because they hold in contempt and sneer at everyone and anyone who isn't EXACTLY LIKE THEM, and they do so publicly and loudly.

They throw around judgemental diatribes saying that only Born Again Christians are moral and truly good and deserving people. Everyone but born againers will burn in the fires of hell for all eternity! They have coopted the word "values" as if fundamentalist Christianity were the ONLY source of "values".

Then they have the nerve to whine about being attacked when say... Jewish or gay movie producers in Hollywood put out products that mock their faith????? What?

What do they expect! I'd mock them too, and I do. A group of people proclaims how awfull they are, and they aren't supposed to respond?

Unfortunately for Chrisitanity at large, these people, this movement, has become the face and mouth of Chrisitanity as a whole. This is why my sister and I both left Christianity about sixteen years ago! It's become synonamous with intolerance, finger pointing, judgementalism and a basic inability and unwillingness to live harmoniously in this world with people of ALL types.

...And you'll know they are Christians by their hate...

Thank you, budbud (1)
I came to TownHall about a year ago following some thread involving gay people. On the one hand, here was a site proclaiming itself 'conservative' that I might reasonably call a home. On the other hand, there was this awful hatred towards gay people.

I began by reasoning with them. It's hopeless. They have their own 'research' institutes that publish unbelievable lies that they believe completely. No matter how many times a gay person tells them "I didn't choose to be this way," they refuse to believe it. When you suggest a thought experiment, YOU be gay for a month, they simply ignore you. I have given up.

Then, of course, we have the preaching. I have not yet decided which type is worse. The type that quotes endlessly from the bible?

Or would it be the passive-aggressive type who pretends there's a difference between hating the sin and making the 'sinner's' life miserable? (Oh no! We don't hate you. We just don't want to have the same rights as us!)

Or is it the downright crazy people, Patrick being my current favorite, who thinks that if we execute pedophiles, there will be no homosexuals with a generation. (Patrick is a barrel of laughs, BTW. He also thinks the California fires are god's warning for abortion, and that Israel be will destroyed because the inventor of some device used to perform abortions is an Israeli. Totally nuts.)

Or would it be the ones who just want to go back in the closet? "Oh! We don't want to deny you anything. Just don't let us see you." AudiR10 is a proponent of this lovely idea.

All four types are expressions of hatred of the different. As you say, budbud: "And you'll know they are Christians by their hate..."




Great, now take it up with Joe Smith
Eichendorff writes: 10:43 PM

As far as I'm concerned, I have the right and the authority to define myself as a Christian. I am the world's authority on what I believe, whom I worship and how I worship. .......

No one has the right or the authority to say I am not a Christian. I know I am a Christian, and above all Jesus himself knows I am a Christian. I will never back down from this truth and will never renounce my faith in Christ.

Anyone who disputes me after I have told them I am a Christian is a contemptible bigot.
------------

Guess one would have to call him a bigot huh, well according to your words here.

Didn't he call everyone else false?
It came from his vision he claimed he had didn't it?
Yes it did.
Joe started it in the first place claiming there were no Christians but him

Ugh
It seems that the authors of this column would relegate Mormons (and other non-evangelicals) to second-class status within the American polity -- welcome to die as soldiers for America, free to pay taxes, but unworthy of election to public office.

Shameful stuff, and just the kind of thing that makes evangelical Christianity seem ugly, hateful, and uncivil to so many in America and abroad.

Fortunately, there is reason to believe that the authors don't speak for all, or even most, evangelicals.

Oh yes, everyone else is so in tune
budbud writes: S 2:16 AM
Typical Evangelical Attitude.
Why is everyone on here bashing Mr. Jackson?

All he is doing is displaying the rigid intolerance that evangelicals have become famous for!
---------

Why don't you be sure and vote for Hilliary.
Lets see how "tolerant" you are with people you disagree with. (assuming you are a republican that is)

Just look at all the phony griping at Jackson for stating his position, a right to express just like all these other clowns.

Lay down all you believe in and allow the others to tell you who to vote for and lets see how tolerant you really are.

This man Jackson has the exact same right to place his values in what he believes, just as everyone else does.
Good article Mr Jackson

I would never vote for Romney either, just another RINO besides being a mormon who has accepted no one but mormons are "Christians" anyway.
They still call everyone outside of this "church" as gentiles, smile.

From a happy gentile

Thank you, budbud (2)
You might have also written: "And you'll know they are Christians by their illogic..."

Once they've finished bashing the gays, they start bashing atheists. Here, the hallmark is illogic. Consider:

"You'll be sorry if you're wrong!" And _you'll_ be sorry if the answer was allah. Or mormonism. Or Thor. Doesn't prove a thing.

"And the fool has said in his heart, there is no god." As if their book was proof. Circular reasoning at its best.

"Everything has a cause. The prime cause is god." This one is breathtaking in its duplicity. On the one hand, we have a self-contradiction (if _everything_ has a cause, what caused god?) On the other hand, we have a massive supposition: Not only is the Prime Cause 'god', but it's _my_ god! Why not Thor?

"The cosmological constants are just so. They must have been designed." This is creationist physics, rather than creationist biology. If the constants were not just so, we wouldn't be here.

"Jesus existed. Therefore he is the son of god." WTF?

"There are eyewitness accounts of Jesus." Written 40-60 years after the fact. I can't remember what I was doing 40 DAYS ago, ferchrisake.

"The prophecies have come true." And so have Nostradamus'. With enough time and imagination, ANYTHING can be prophesied. Especially if you elect people who work to make them come true.

"Moral codes come from xianity." Sure. Like the ones more than half the planet follow, like those derived from Confucius, Buddha, Mohamed, Mao...

"Xianity have survived scrutiny for two-thousand years!" And just how long did we believe that the earth was flat?

"Some of the best minds believe xianity is true." Appeal to authority.

I could go on. And on.

They're mad as hatters. And here they are arguing that one madman is madder than the others?!?

The mind reels. The stomach heaves.

Biggest bigot ever born
(outside of mohammed) Was Joe Smith himself.

He claimed he had a vision from God telling him not to join any church as they were all wrong, and God was left all alone until Joe showed up.

Joe was the only Christian on the earth at that time (according to Joe) as he no followers as yet.

Then only through Joe Smith's preaching could one become a Christian.
The man is as phony as it can get but his lies are sucked up big time by such as Romney.

But for me, Mitt is a RINO anyway

So before you mormonms go hooting and hollering about "bigots" check out your own "prophet" one of the biggest ever was.

Desperate Times Bring Desperate Measures
Your very sincere column is filed with platitudes and hearsay, that you have bought into. We all too often fall in to that at times, and repent when too late to correct. Elections are filled with such events.

Vote For The Person Who Keeps Promises. If life depended on absolute truthfulness, not honesty, but truthfulness alone. Not sincerity but the pure facts how many of us would be dead?

We seem to ignore the truth, because it does not flatter our ego. So we promote our opinion as fact, our hopes as a reality, and our dreams as the only way it aught to be.

To much of what we seem to know just ain't so. Along of what we understand of the past is wrong and so today we are handicapped all because we bartered for the "the-interest-there-is-in-it-for-me-attitude.."

And now we defend that with false pretense rather than to admit our mistake. We would rather not change than to be called a Flip-flopper to repemt.

But if we stand on the truth, we respect God and all men, we honor stranger whether friend or foe.

Seek the good and ban all falsehoods,
If we could we’d all be free.

Aren’t we given reason freedom,
To choose what we shall be?

So as we reason seeking freedom,
Bound in truth and wisdom;

Never lacking understanding,
Knowing freedom rules our lives.

Honoring, respecting, loving truth,
The truth shall always makes us free.

I think I’ll vote my conscience
I’ll vote for Mr. Mitt Romney.




The first dictionary I looked at...
..defined bigot as "One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ."

In that case, talent scout should put himself ahead of the two he calls out.

Of course, there is massive competition on this site from xians of all stripes.

Take Mellnor
Great example of a bigot.
He is on every Christian thread railing and accusing (with hatred) against Christianity.

Go heave before we all see more of your putrid hate, spill it in the toilet for a change

xian attitude, ts
.


So Much Hate And Not Enough Love
talent scout wrote:
Friday, November, 02, 2007 1:33 PM
Romney the RINO
---
I commend you, talent scout for your sincerity and fitfulness to your conscience. Too few have a conscience to be bothered with.

While your comments are sincere, they are far for accurate, Your sincerity moves me to encourage more research and study that challenges your view. In a court intent is very important, but only the facts are relevant as proof. A lot more proof and less opinion. More complete quotes and less out of context, then the truth will be known, and it will make us all free.

May Gods Spirit be with us all as we seek to choose the best person for President. Vote your conscience.

Who Knows the Dark Appreciates the light
http://e-spirituality.townhall.com/g/882bba14-9119-4daf-a22 3-e792f10d5397


If It So Be That We Look To Christ
talent scout writes:
Saturday, November, 03, 2007 3:38 AM
Biggest bigot ever born
---
Talent Scout, what we believe to be true does not make one a bigot. It is the intolerance, persecution and exaggerations we invent that make us bigots.

Did you know that Joseph Smith was not yet 15 when he went to pray to ask God to help him know which church was true. He shared his experience with the ministers who where all competing for converts to their brand of Christianity.

A mere boy became the object of persecution because he could not deny what he had experienced. He was warned of the consequence of ever denying that which he had received from God and His Son Jesus Christ. He gave his life for that truth and the sake of the gospel as many protestants had done as well. We all must be grateful for their sacrifice and have respect for Christ by setting an example of his love.

If it so be that we look to Christ, we shall also be willing do the things of Christ in a Christ like manner, with love one to another.

Mitt has not
convinced me he is not a RINO, and Rudy hasn't either. It will be a tough decision to vote for either, should they win the nomination. Which is more dangerous? An avowed socialist/communist like Hillary, or a commie lite, like the Rudy shows every sign of being? Hillary will do her best to take the country hard left, but may inspire a backlash. A RINO will move us not so far left, but blur the chance for a backlash. Where are the the statesmen? There may be some up there in DC, but they are lost in the shuffle.

Savage99
I agree with your comment on a backlash under Hitlary. She is a stone leftist with a vision of a communist/socialist nation for us. The fact that she is garnering over 10% support is scary simply that it means that the idiot class is growing on the left. Still, I hope she gets the nod from DNC, and how can see not when the Clintons and Soros the DNC? The GOP should PRAY that she's annoited by Soros! haha

I prefer Thompson myself although Romney is not bad.

Mitt's Religion: 1st Centur Christianity
Mitt’s church, the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) has been often misunderstood by Evangelical preachers in the past . . Some accused the Church of not believing in Christ and, therefore, not being a Christian religion . .

http://MormonsAreChristian.blogspot.com/ helps to clarify such misconceptions by examining early (First Century) Christianity's theology relating to baptism, the Godhead, the deity of Jesus Christ and His Atonement. Mitt’s church believes in the Jesus of the New Testament, who prayed to His Father in Heaven in the Garden of Gethsemane, not the Jesus portrayed in the creeds of the 4th Century.

The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) adheres to Early Christian (New Testament) theology more closely than other Christian denominations. . Perhaps the reason Evangelical preachers such as Dr Jeffress of Dallas promote this mis-representation is to protect their flock (and their livlihood). It is encouraging to note that Evangelical preachers such as Bob Jones III (along with Jay Sekulow and Mark DeMoss) have dis-avowed bigotry and appear now to have a moral and competent president as a priority..

This is Ridiculous
This guy believes that the future of Evangelicalism in America depends on which candidate some people support.

Evangelicalism is so much more than that.

And they say that the President is living in a bubble.

Who cares...
If Romney is Christian, Jewish or atheist? What matters to me is what are his political positions? What will he DO as president? I don't actually like Romney but it has nothing to do with his belief system.

Clinton and Obama are both mainstream Christians. Are they to be preferred over Romney simply because their beliefs about Jesus are more consistent with evangelical beliefs about Jesus? Get real. We're electing a secular political leader, not the Archbishop of America.

Update Your Files
foxfire22 writes: Friday, November, 02, 2007 10:11 PM
I don't Get It

"I’m more concerned about Romney’s past positions, which have changed just prior to announcing his candidacy."
---
He did not change "just prior to announcing his candidacy."

As Governor he always protected life.

"Mr. Romney is Pro-life Massachusetts Governor Opposes Stem Cell Work"
By PAM BELLUCK
Published: February 10, 2005

Announced he would run Feb. 13, 2006. that is over a year.

This does not appear his decision had anything to do with him choosing to run for president.

Mitt received an award from Mass. Pro-Lifers for protecting life as governor, just recently. I hope you will update your files. Vote your conscience.


Bot, let your missionaries do it...
There are thousands of fine, clean-cut, articulate young men all over the country wearing white shirts, ties, backpacks, helmets, riding bicycles, wearing name tags and all of them have the first name "Elder". These misguided souls are called Mormon missionaries. I've talked with many of them and they do a fine job of sharing their religion. They do it well, Bot does it poorly.

Bot, if someone WANTS to know about the Mormon version of Christianity, let them talk to the missionaries; don't pollute TH with your "1st Centur Christianity" line (how many times HAVE you written that ridiculous assertion?).

Romney's a good businessman, an outstanding administrator and appears to be a wonderful husband and father. He happens to come from a Mormon family... period. If he wins his Party's nomination, he will be a good alternative to Hillary... period.

People using his religion as a springboard to try to convert readers of TH columnists to Mormonism are almost as reprehensible as people who use his religion as an opening to pollute TH by denigrating all religions.

Romney's a quality candidate IN SPITE of his religion, Bot. Don't ruin his credibility by telling us about "the truth" of a religion of which Romney is a part simply because his family has alway been Mormon.

GOP IN BAD SHAPE
Poll finds GOP in worse shape than ever
How much damage have the NEOCONS done to the GOP?

Politico-One year before voters go to the polls to select the next president, the Republican Party is as weak as it has been in a generation, a detailed new poll from the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press suggests.

Only 36 percent of Republicans and Republican-leaning independents say the GOP “does an excellent or good job” of “standing up for traditional GOP positions” on issues like reducing the size of government, cutting taxes and promoting conservative social issues.

That’s a decline of 25 points since July 2004. In fact, it’s the lowest Republican rating for the GOP since Pew began tracking the issue in 2000.

And while the Democratic Party had only a slight lead in July 2004 as the party “better able to manage the federal government” and as the party that is “more honest and ethical,” today Democrats lead both categories by double-digit margins.

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/poll-finds-gop-in- worse-shape-than-ever

We Can But You Cannot!
tweaky writes:
Saturday, November, 03, 2007 6:56 AM
Bot, let your missionaries do it...
---

“God Created man in His image, in the image of God created he them; male and female created he them.”

Freedom of choice was theirs, and is yours as long as we seek to share and understand each other. However, when we try to prohibit, and accuse others of polluting TH, I can most certainly agree, to prevent profanity, vulgarity and such. So how do we understand and help other to correct a fallacy in belief if we muzzle the one we think is an infidel or unbeliever, because he expresses personal conscience?

Some times unaware, we may just learn that what we thought of another was not, and never was true. So why should we make others unwelcome, or how may we touch each other lives in goodness and truth if we prohibit them?

christ does not need U.S.
Evangelism is not dead, in fact it quite alive world wide. Christ does not need the United States regardless of who is president to carry out His will. We are so vain in this country to think we are really something special in the eyes of our creator. He loves us, but not because of where we live. He will bless and keep us so long as we follow His direction. Personally, Mike Huckabee comes closer than any of those running to my political views, but Romney is not far behind. ANYONE BUT HILLARY, is what we best come together on if we are to perserve this republic. Religion, especially Christianity, is opressed under socialism. The election of Hillary would be a major step in the wrong direction. Regardless of what happens in America, God will most assured use those who honor Him. Ron G

The End of Evangelicisim?
If it's the Moral Majority-Christian Colition- look-at-the-small-picture-variety, well then I hope so. I don't recall the Apostle Paul organizing political action groups, Rather, he said he resolved to know nothing but Christ,and him crucified. I don't think I can do any better than that.

Of the so-called front runners, I'd be more willing to accept Rommney over the others. However, he is GWB lite, a RINO, as others have said before.

My vote is for; 1.Ron Paul, 2.Duncan Hunter, 3.Huckabee(because of the Fair Tax) So far, no others need apply.

From a Liberal Web Site-BY Steven Stoll
This site is a Libertarian disguised, Liberal propaganda site. It figures
Steven Stoll has a beef with the GOP and it may be an Al Gore backed site.

Control Congress the Website at:
http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/poll-finds-gop-in- worse-shape-than-ever is in "Steven Stoll’s" name as contact in the Domain Registrar section below.

Created on: 27-Oct-05
Expires on: 27-Oct-08
Last Updated on: 11-Sep-06

The report that follows at
http://www.beachbrowser.com/Archives/Local-News/November-20 00/

Partial Quote:
November 17, 2000 - Broward conducts full hand recount - FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. (AP) - ... "You had no basis to start your hand recount in the first place," said William Scherer, a Republican activist who sued on behalf of fellow attorney Steven Stoll. "We're going to have a trial." Broward resumed counting Thursday and Democrat Al Gore had a net gain of 21 votes over the initial tallies reported to the state by the deadline earlier this week. ... In other election news, overseas ballots are also being counted in Florida

Domain Registrar:

Registrant:
Steven Stoll
1308 Oak Bluff Court
Canton, Georgia 30114
United States

Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: CONTROLCONGRESS.COM
Created on: 27-Oct-05
Expires on: 27-Oct-08
Last Updated on: 11-Sep-06

WHAT WILL THEY STOOP TO NEXT?

When a Christian is NOT a Christian
I will not cast my vote for this Mormon. I believe he is a Globalist who will be persuaded to cede our constitutional sovereignty to the United Nations and other New World Order entities. It is my concern that he will continue to pursue the so-called "War on Terror" which has been foisted upon us by the fear mongers pulling the strings of President Bush. I am reluctant to believe he is a conservative. I am certain he is lacking in an understanding of the foundational principles contained in the Constitution of the United States of America. I could not vote for him under any circumstances at this point, but his being a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not one of them. As a fellow member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints with Mitt Romney, I will be voting for Ron Paul.

As for Mr. Jackson, I am at a loss as to why TH would find the musings of this irrelevant wannabe worthy of posting on this site unless they simply have a political agenda which is geared toward supporting some other candidate such as Rudy or Fred. Perhaps we are being duped by TH since it seems they continue to bring out of the woodwork such characters of little import.

AudiR10
"Vote your conscience" was accurate indeed.

GOP In Bad Sape For Liberals
John Konop wrote: Saturday, November, 03, 2007 7:00 AM
GOP IN BAD SHAPE
Poll finds GOP in worse shape than ever
How much damage have the NEOCONS done to the GOP?
----
THEY DO ALL KINDS OF THINGS TO INFLUENCE THE PUBLIC MIND. AS WE THINK WE TRAVEL; AS WE ENTERTAIN WE CHOOSE. HOWEVER AS WE DREAM AND ASPIRE WE PLAN AND WE CHOOSE.

BE INFORMED - VOTE YOUR CONSCIENCE

Michael Logic101 - what ward?
michaelogic101 writes:
Saturday, November, 03, 2007 8:27 AM
When a Christian is NOT a Christian

michaelogic101, TH is a bout the truth, and truth is not partisin or respecter of persons. I think that TH is right on. Let us know it all.

I have to doubt that you are a LDS by the way you express yourself buddy. No offense meant. Nice try though. ;-)

If we can’t
If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
HUNTER /Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com

To MellorSJ12
I agree with everything you said, but, you gotta hand it to townhallers, they are optimists. They believe that if a prayer is said at 9 AM in a school, then all day long no kid will cheat on a test nor will any boy peek up a girl's skirt. They believe that anyone who carries a loaded gun stuck in his belt will be able, in an emergency, to draw it like Quick Draw McGraw and shoot it with the accuracy of Rambo. They believe that if public schools are shut down and all the "academically unprepared" teachers done away with, children taught instead by academically totally unprepared parents will become scholars. They believe that if Roe v Wade is overturned, no woman will ever again abort her pregnancy. They believe that if laws are set in place to control homosexuality, all gay men will turn into Marlboro Men cowboys (and the real cowboys on Brokeback Mountain will go to jail).

The Consternation
is the conflict between Grudem's support for a Morman canidate and his own core beliefs. Of course that is going to cause considerable consternation. Why shouldn't it?

Mormanism is in direct conflict with the theology Grudem espouses. Why else would he have to give a lengthy explaination of his support for Romney? So down playing the differences by saying Mormanism is 'Christian' is patronizing.

Grudem undermines the propagation of a sound Christian theology to gain the political support for one who's core beliefs are in conflict with that Christian theology. And isn't a person's theology somekind of hint of the character of a person? Or is that immature to think like that?

Mitt

Well, if you want to destroy a candidate you must first destroy the messenger.
Gregg Jackson does a great hachet job on Wayne Grudem.
Wonder how he would have handled God's messenger, Jesus.

lilly
What ALWAYS amazes me is why bashers come to TH and do their bashing! You don’t believe in God? Why join in? You don’t believe in the “empty tomb” don’t post! There is just something wrong with people who admit to no love of God, want to comment on something they don’t believe in, as well as bash any who do believe! And this talk of guns now, I reckon your type would rather the criminals ONLY have guns! Go figure.

If we can’t have HOME SECURITY first, the rest just don’t matter!
HUNTER /Tancredo 2008!
http://www.gohunter08.com

Jackson purveyor of biggotry
What a load of narrow minded, intolerant and latent bigotry. Mr. Jackson, what a perfect example you are of what a Christian should NOT be? How dare you say, “The Mormon Church could not have thrived as it has anywhere else in the world?” In the history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, people of your mentality right here in the land of the free, murdered, persecuted and drove innocent men, women and children from their homes, communities and states because they chose to worship their God and His Son in the manner they thought was in keeping with their freedom to choose. Yes this happened in our country with a Constitution inspired of God that espouses “Freedom of Religion”. Search your soul Mr. Jackson.

It is my faith and testimony that Jesus Christ of the New Testament and Book of Mormon, even the same Jehovah of the Old Testament is my Savior and Redeemer. If this belief makes me a “cultist” then so be it; let God be the judge between me and thee.

“A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.” John 13:34

Shooting Ourselves In The Foot
Folks I have said it before and I'll say it again. I believe the Republican nominee for president will be either Romney, Guiliani, McCain, or Thompson. While I have reservations about each of these, I am willing to support whoever the Republican nominee is because the alternative is come January 20, 2009 to hear Chief Justice John Roberts say the words "Congratulations Madame President" to Hillary Clinton after he just swore her in. Obama, Edwards, and the other Democratic challengers don't have a prayer of taking the nomination and a third party threat is suicide. My conservative friends, politics is the art of the possible and sometimes of the compromise and realizing that you can't get 100% of what you want all the time. You may have to settle for the best situation you can. Thus yes I can vote for Romney even though he is Mormon. I hope many of you will join me or our worst nightmare of the last 15 years will come true.

Pew