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Thursday, July 17, 2008
Glen  Lavy :: Townhall.com Columnist
Same-sex “Marriage” the Same as Interracial Marriage? Hardly.
by Glen Lavy
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In yet another attempt to excuse bypassing the democratic process, California Chief Justice Ronald George recently asserted that a 1948 court decision legalizing interracial marriage in California is analogous to the May 15 ruling granting same-sex couples the “right” to marry. He went on to predict, in an interview with the San Francisco Chronicle, that same-sex “marriage” will be more quickly accepted by the public than racial equality.

Putting aside for the moment that it’s quite presumptuous to say that Californians consider same-sex “marriage” a more important thing to act quickly upon than racism, Chief Justice George’s take on the California fiasco proves once again that judges make poor prophets, as his prediction and comparison fall miserably short on several grounds.

First of all, the court’s role in society is not to make laws, but to interpret and apply them; lawmaking is reserved for the legislature.

But secondly, what about similarities between the California Supreme Court decision legalizing interracial marriage 60 years ago (Perez v. Sparks) and the recent ruling legalizing same-sex “marriage” (In re: Marriage Cases)? The chief justice of the highest court in California apparently fails to see the obvious differences.

It’s an undeniable fact that interracial marriage laws in 1948 were a departure from historical marriage, as prohibitions of interracial marriage had nothing to do with the institution of marriage and everything to do with societal prejudice. It was also quite clear that a key issue in Perez had to do with lawmakers not wanting the mixing of races to produce interracial children.

The court’s ruling to legalize same-sex “marriage” fails to compare with the Perez decision in that redefining “marriage” changed the institution itself, whereas marriage both before and after 1948 remained one man and one woman. Only after May 15, 2008, has the time-honored institution of marriage been adulterated to give virtually any two friends the right to have their friendship licensed as a “marriage.”

Regardless of the unsubstantiated arguments used to create same-sex “marriages,” none of them even come close to justifying the potential and proven consequences children face when raised in a home without both a mother and a father. The government should never set policy and courts should never impose a system that knowingly deprives a child of a mom or a dad.

The key failure on the part of same-sex “marriage” advocates is that they say it’s about love and equality, or they ask, “How does this hurt you?” But they misunderstand that those defending marriage as the union of one man and one woman are not just concerned with themselves. They are concerned with the long-term benefit for children, families, and communities. The issue is bigger than a “personal relationship.” Same-sex “marriage” simply doesn’t make sense to those who have children’s best interest at heart.

Yes, there are great single parents. But there’s a difference between coping well with unfortunate circumstances in the life of a child and enacting public policy that deliberately deprives children of a mom and a dad.

The non-partisan social science research tells us that children raised in a home without both a mom and a dad are twice as likely to use drugs, 54 percent more likely to use alcohol, 62 percent more likely to engage in premature sexual activity, twice as likely to commit crimes, have 50 percent higher depression and suicide rates, and have higher school drop-out rates.

Tragic. But can’t the cohabitation of any two adults in a home make it a healthy home? No. Whether we’re talking about a single parent or one biological parent and an unrelated parent, all non-partisan research and common sense tell us that children suffer much greater risks when their own mother and father are not present in the home. Despite the claims of same-sex couples that two parents of the same sex can do just as well, there simply is no research on children raised by two same-sex parents from birth.

Television viewers have been and will be bombarded with a tidal wave of same-sex ”marriage” images, but we must remember that these ads and media stories are being used to target emotions—not sense, responsibility, or the well-being of future generations. The groups that have designed these messages have not hidden their desire to normalize homosexual behavior. As just one recent example, a joint statement issued by several of the largest national organizations fighting legal battles for same-sex couples stated the following:

Couples who want to should get married, call themselves married, and ask (sometimes demand) that family, friends, neighbors, businesses, employers and the community treat their marriages with respect. Making the marriages of same-sex couples a conspicuous part of American society will help us get something we’ll need to win ultimately: public acceptance of equal treatment for lesbian and gay families.[1]

Strange coming from the same people who accuse their opponents of trying to force their morality on people. Contrary to popular belief, this is not a “live and let live” crowd. This is a “live the way we want you to live, or we’ll use the force of law” crowd. Religious liberty, despite its unquestionable foundation in American history, must take a back seat to sexual desires. Georgetown University law professor Chai Feldblum, a champion of special rights for those involved in homosexual behavior, puts it bluntly:

There can be a conflict between religious liberty and sexual liberty, but in almost all cases the sexual liberty should win because that’s the only way the dignity of gay people can be affirmed in any realistic manner.[2]

So, would Feldblum object to amending the U.S. Constitution to say that “sexual liberty” is superior to religious liberty? Was mention of sexual preference left out of the First Amendment because the Founders were just ignorant of its greater importance than religious liberty? No, they believed that religious liberty was our most important right.

Indeed, the U.S. government recognizes—but does not create—fundamental rights. Fundamental rights transcend the government and cannot be invented simply because some people desire to use the big stick of the government to force everyone else to affirm their behavior.

Marriage, for example, is not a device for affirming any individual’s dignity. Because the government’s interest in marriage is primarily to encourage environments that do not deliberately deny children the benefit of a mother or father, here’s the question all of us should be asking: “Which parent doesn’t matter—mom or dad?”

One hopes Justice George will consider that question, too.

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About The Author
Glen Lavy is a senior vice president and senior counsel for the Alliance Defense Fund (www.telladf.org).
 
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gay marriage
Two biological parents might be best in a perfect world but what if one of those parents is a rapist and has raped the mother? That's just one example of where this logic fails.

I was raised by both of my biological parents however my father happened to be gay. I would have preferred to be raised by him and another guy that the two of my parents.

My dad wasn't looking to marry another guy but when he married my mother it wasn't even the thought of an option. Because of societal pressures and non acceptance of gays he married my mom and had two kids. You can read about the experience on my blog at http://kidsofqueers.blogspot.com/ you can read other stories of kids in similar situations as well.

I am a single mom to two kids. I go to great lengths to keep their dads involved but frankly I married the wrong guys. Not at once but I got back on the horse after the first one failed. He cheated by the way.

Had I been brought up in a family where the parents loved one another it might have been different. My parents fought all the time. They made a bad choice by getting married each other. I can't understand how it can be fair that a portion of the population is denied the right to grow old with someone they love.

Redhead Ranting
This is the same stuff the pro gay marriage crowd disseminates to the public in various themes. It is an emotional plea of compassion that draws from the reader an inevitable conclusion.

I love my mother, brother, father, sister, grandkids, and so on, but how does that give me license to marry them ??. And if three or more people, say three women love one man, why can't they marry ? And don't forget people who love their pets and stil love a deceased lover must be included.

This is the slippery slope of gay marriage. Society over the last few thousand years has found homosexual marriage does not work. No society has ever embraced homosexual marriage.

Religion is another part, but very seperate from human experience. The bible is simply an owners manual for human behavior. It tells you what works and what does not.The milleniums of human existence has shown the bible to be correct

I am sorry to hear life choices in you family were not filled with joy. And the trouble you experienced with men. Your experience however is not an indictment of marriage or a affirmation of gay marriage.

Wierd Conflict
In what possible way could gay marriage deprive a child of life with a mother and father.

I mean, can anyone provide a scenario where a child who would have been with a mother and father will not be due gay marraige?

The decision that the voters

of California will face in November concerning the definition of marriage will reflect the culture of California. If a majority believe and vote that traditional marriage is not worth saving, California will eliminate it.

Love is the Law.
And it's fundamental.

Gays aren't asking for special treatment, just equal treatment. Those who come up with elaborate prohibitions against their loving relationships are fighting the wind.

Our kids will look at anti-gay bigotry today just we look at racist bigotry of the past.

And those who so passionately write against the fundamental law of love?

Believe you me, they'll have a hard time explaining their ignorance away.

Issue is not marriage - issue is judges

The reason gay "marriage" is such a motivating issue for evangelicals and conservatives is because it points to the growing tyranny of lawyers-in-judges'-robes ignoring the will of the people by legislating from the bench. The gay "marriage" issue might never have come up if the gay community and their complicit lawyers had simply asked for recognition of civil unions.

Instead they opted to flaunt their chosen lifestyle, call it marriage, and try to force the rest of us to submit without even a whimper.

The majority, in this case, is being tyrannized by a small, vocal minority.

Love does not require

marriage, nor does civil marriage require love. Love has nothing to do with the defiant same-sex sodomites' attempts to force government sanctioned same-sex sodomy upon us.

"Love does not require marriage"
You've either never been married or never been in love.

Oh no! Not again!
So many misconceptions.... So little time.

I have stuff to do today. You'll have to wait for me to correct them all.

To Redhead Ranting
RR Wrote: "I can't understand how it can be fair that a portion of the population is denied the right to grow old with someone they love."

NO ONE is being denied this "right." How does preserving the definition of marriage stop anyone from living with someone else? It doesn't.

What you have written is a lie and you know it.


Paranoidmystic wrote...
"Love is the Law. And it's fundamental."

In which country do you live?

Y'all just make it up as you go along.

paranoid

Married or not I deeply love many people. Thus I know love does not require marriage, nor must love find its fulfillment in marriage. In purity love finds its greatest fulfillment.

Gravity isn't written in a book.
You obey the law of gravity because that's the way the world it.

""Love is the Law. And it's fundamental."

In which country do you live?"

No country needs to write a law for Love. Love is, and that's that.

Marriage is nothing but love as professed before a God of your understanding with the commitment of a lifetime as the offering.

Nothing else will do. If it was kept from you, you'd do the same.

Fight the rain! Fight the wind! Scream against gravity! Shut out the sun!

You always lose when you go up against Love!

All gays born of straight parents
I wonder if it had occured to anyone that 100% of homosexuals (thats 100%) were born of good heterosexual and (for the majority)loving parents? Yes, every one of us. We were, and are, part of a heterosexual family. We were loved children of God, just like the ones you are "trying to protect" by raising children only in heterosexual homes. I wonder at just what point we ceased to no longer be children of God. No one, NO ONE wants to be gay.

At whatever tender age we, just like hetero teens, struggled with sexuality. We were not attracted to the opposite sex. Suddenly at that tender and trying age, we found that "good Christian people" hated us, riviled us, loathed us. We were suddenly told (implicitly or explicitaly) that we were outside of God's love for doing just what every other teenager in the world has to work through to become loving, confident, caring, compassionate adults. The majority of us did just that. Probably the same percentage as heteros did (and do).

We were kids, we are people. We do everything you do. We, if we're lucky, meet and fall in love with that special person. We go to school, college, have a carrer, and now we can marry. Same as everyone else (at least in California. We pay taxes, buy gas, have pets, have homes, etc. We're only diferent in one way. We were born gay. It's not a choice (we wish is was). But since it's not and we are good people just like you are, we should be able to pursue life, liberty, and happiness!

Again, we gay people were all born into a family of both a mother and a father, just like you. Why not take the opportunity to love your neighbors as yourselves, and work together for a harmony, peace, tolerance and mutual respect... like God says!

The Genie is Out of the Closet
While I tend to understand the anger expressed by "I'd Rather Be in Alaska", the fact is that the very same arguments against inter-racial marriage and the bigotry displayed all those years ago (supported by many preachers with all those loveable Old Testament pronouncements) is still manifested in many people today; except gays are on the receiving end.

And, to add a bit of salt to the imagined wounds in the anti-gay activist movement, Massachusetts is poised to repeal their 1913 law forbidding out-of-state couples from being able to marry there. So, all the effort in California to pass a ban on same-sex marriage will end up as wasted time. Some couple will go to Massachusetts, get married and return home to their state and spark a court case that will end up in the US Supreme Court.

Like I've said, the best is yet to come.

Kai,
Please re-read your Bible. There are no scriptures where God gives the thumbs up for homosexuality; in fact, quite the opposite. Also, the fact that this is pointed out doesn't mean I hate you. That's your imagination, not mine.

Redhead Ranting,
Nobody is denied the right to grow old with anybody in this country. It really is tiresome how many lies have been resorted to in order to try to prove your point.

homosexual practicioners
already have the right to marry.

Scarlet - where is that again?
Like in Canada?

Searcher29's got it dead-on:

"The American people have had it with the moralizers of the far right."

Homosexuals can marry
They just have to marry someone of the opposite sex.

If you gay folks want to "grow old" together, leaving your estates and life insurance benefits to one another, who or what is stopping you?

Will you please go do your shack up, and then shut up, already! Sheesh!

what's a moralizer?
Tell us what's a moralizer? Do all morals happen on the Right? Nobody on the Left can moralize?

Morals are important for your spiritual growth and development. Among gays & lesbians that development is almost 100% stalled. (Although some of them probably repent their sinful lives when Old Boney is at the hostel door.)

But this is about marriage. Not altogether morality. Plainly, nobody can marry unless he's a man marrying a spouse who is vaginally correct. She marries when her dude has male sex organs. Ipso facto: Marriage.

No other kind can rock, People! Hahaha!

.

Gay Marriage
There are already cohabitation laws and civil unions. The only reason whay Homosexuals want to be "Married" is to flaunt it in the face of conventional hertosexual married couples. This "in your face" attitude to gain acceptance
, or is there something more sinister? The majority of hertosexual maried couples rever their marriage vows, "Gay" marriage is an affront to God. Do the civil union route, get your healthcare, 401K shares, but we will never accept the homosexual marriage.

Gay Marriage Ban
is on the ballot in California. The people of California will now have a chance to settle it come November). That is how it should be (which ever way it goes).

Gay Marriage
There are many kinds of religions and almost all of them will tell you how you should conduct your life.
The problems start when people believe that not only is their religion the only one but everyone should believe as they do. If gay couples were to be given the
same legal protections as heterosexual couples then this would stop the anti-gays in their tracks.
But the gay haters are bigots who want to impose their religious beliefs on others.
Think about it- some of the greatest mass murderers in modern history (Stalin, Hitler, George W. Bush) were born into a heterosexual, Christian family.
The people who are against gay marriage are the same kind of people who made interracial marrige illegal.
I am not gay and I have been married to the same women for 29 years and I do not see how gay marriage will threaten me in any way. The world is full of self-righteous, small minded people who are haters and cannot understand what the word love means.

This subject has nothing to do

with homosexuality. It is between defiant same-sex sodomites who are determined to make the government sanction their sodomy.

There are many homosexuals who are able to use self-control and remain chaste. None of opponents of the government replacing traditional marriage with something that includes same-sex sodomy have anything negative to say about homosexuals. They do however something against a small minority of unrepentant deviants trying to get the government to replace traditional marriage with same-sex sodomy. The problem is that these defiant same-sex sodomites refuse to exert self-control and instead insist on engaging in actions that are demeaning and debasing to human beings.

Marriage involves intercourse.
I think in all races the men have men parts and the women have women parts. When the marriage is consummated then the couples are officially married. Different races are able to consummate a marriage. Without consummation there is no marriage. This is how the 2 become 1.

Government out of the biz
Government ought be out of the biz of marriage.

Doing so will allow any religion to decide if it wants to either bless or deny such a union.

Any couple of any race or gender can then enter into a legal agreement whereby they seek legal representation and documents outlining the details of their contract.

If you want to marry your goat, your church approves and you wish to leave all your money to your goat, feel free. This is America and ALL VALUES, MORALS AND STANDARDS ARE PERSONAL AND SUBJECTIVE whether you like the idea or not.

Taking government out of the biz of marriage through endorsement, tax credit, et.al. allows for our Constitutional freedoms of liberty to each individual to live the life he or she wishes to live unobstructed by your personal opinion, is upheld.

The greatest problem is that the religious of this nation want to define how life should be lived; how a "family" ought to be defined; how everyone should "think" and "act". That’s fine… for you as an individual. You are free to destroy your child’s mind by creating narrow thinking and no one will stop you.

Religion itself disenfranchises millions of people who don't believe the same doctrine or no doctrine.

Religions claim about our founders only reveals the nature of intent to take ownership of this country as though religion has warrant and license to it. It doesn't.

Stop talking about your religion; it's personal and belongs only to you.

Stop discriminating others who don't agree with your personal subjective philosophy by which to live your life.

Get government out of the family and marriage biz.

Then mind your own business.

By all means, disagree with Americans living their lives without your interference.

By all means, disagree with allowing Americans the freedom of choice.

By all means, reveal yourself as narrow of mind, undeveloped and uneducated about the nature of life.

Confused people aren't helped by the
The homosexual lifestyle is not a beautiful thing. The homosexual men I know are sex addicts. There lives revolve around their sexual desires. We do not need to normalize this. If two people love one another they can be devoted to each other without sex or marriage. There is nothing wrong with loving someone of your own sex. That is completely normal. Wanting to belong to them. That is not what marriage is about.

same old arguments so little time
@AliveInHim and @David

In the real world (where I live) only the word "marriage" gives my family the legal protection it needs to provide stability and growth. When we attempt to go with "civil unions" hacks like you yell out that its "marriage in all but name" and work hard against it (see: michigan).

I was raised by two straight loving parents who are celebrating their 45th anniversary in two weeks. I am lucky that my parents and my boyfriends parents are people who are rational enough not be threatened in any way by our relationship. Their marriages are not diminished in any way. However - if any single one of them choose two - they could step in and take away his rights for hospital visitation, carrying out my final wishes, or kick him out of my house without a penny if I were to die. Those of you who say we can construct full legal protection have no understanding of the law or reality.

Scooter NYC
Your religion is Libertarianism. You are trying to impose your philosophy or world-view on our culture. I am trying to impose my world-view on our culture. History teaches that your ideas do not work. Nature teaches that you need a man and a woman to be able to come together.

RAnting Redhead
Great story but No one is stopping anyone from loving anyone and growing old together. Two men cannot be made one.

RAnting Redhead
A word of advice. Stop blaming your parents for your bad choices. That's what 15 year olds do.

Searcher29
What morals are you trying to impose on us. That anyone should be able to get married. That is your morality that you are trying to impose on our culture.

Coming Soon To Your State...
Law suits from Gay couples who travel to California and soon Massachusetts to get married. With these two states having no residency requirements, many gays from other states will go marry. Then, under the provisions of the "Full Faith and Credit Clause" of the U.S. Constitution, will return to their home states and file suits in Federal Courts to have them recognized.

About Those Lawsuits...
A gay couple I know went to California three weeks ago and got married. They have already put one of the largest law firms in the Norfolk, VA area on retainer with a view to challenging the anti-same sex marriage amendment to Virginia's constitution. Obviously this will be done in the Federal District Court, Eastern Virginia. The decision, no matter how it is rendered, will be appeals to 4th US Circuit Court of Appeals. Then, by the time it gets to the Supreme Court, Barack Obama will have already appointed at least one extreme liberal to the bench. He is on record as saying his idea of a great justice is Ruth Bader Ginsburg. In her twelve years on the bench she has as yet (in 328 so-called ideological cases) to vote on one social issue with the conservatives, making her the only one on the bench to have never done that - ONCE! Breyer and Souter have a couple of conservative opinions during that time.

Now, when Virginia's amendment is overturned, there is another gay couple I am personally acquainted with who wants a Virginia wedding license and a church wedding. A conservative Baptist Church down the road from where they live has a very nice sanctuary and fellowship hall they desire to utilize but the church's conservative stance will prohibit them using the building. They are talking about suing under the banner of civil-rights violations and using the new anti-hate crimes laws which now protects gays, lesbians, bisexual and transgendered persons as a special class entitled to civil-rights. It appears that soon churches may be forced to utilize their facilities for gay marriages (or be forced to loose their 501 (c) 3 status). Furthermore pastors will be forced to perform such nuptials or face fines, jail time or worse.

The result: Gays will be free to get married, but churches and pastors will not be free to say "NO" under the Freedom of Religion clause of the 1st Amendment.

I can't
wait for two same sex soldiers announce their intention to marry..........

A word of advice, Joycey
Keep your religion OFF my civil rights.

Me neither, Harry.
"I can't wait for two same sex soldiers announce their intention to marry.........."


Same pro gay marriage bunch here
Same tired, lame arguements set forth here by the same pro homosexual marriage crowd, that commented on the recent Dennis Prager column.

They do not get it. Homosexual marriage has never worked in the milleniums of human history. No civilization has ever embraced it. The bible said it would not work, it did not before the bible, or the 2,000 years since.

What sheer arrogance now dictates that a failed concept be forced upon all of us to please a few who don't get it??

Not a single pro homosexual marriage poster can dispute the fact that no civilization has ever embraced same sex marriage. All that is offered is distractions to that central, core, irrefuteable fact.

End of arguement.

Higene
Note the posts by this person. Cut, paste and offer nonsense for a rebuttal.

I stated homosexual, same sex marriage has never worked, and has never been accepted by any society, anywhere. That is the core issue behins same sex marriage.

After answering with academic nonsense, no example was forthcoming by Higene.

All this poster had to do was post the name of a civilization where same sex marriage worked.

This poster can not post such an example , because none exists, or ever has.

Fascism
What people are arguing for is a totalitarian state that regulates parts of life deemed relevant to "their" religion and ideology.

The underlying theme at Townhall continually advocates nationalism and racism, while justifying ways to eliminate personal freedoms.

How can Christians call themselves supporters of freedom when they don't even believe we are free from absolute authority? (God)

This article represents how religion is used to incorporate fascists beliefs into an already growing number of Christian Idendity groups such as the Aryan Nations and WAR.

You hate America because you hate freedom.

It's that simple.

matthew
It is indeed that simple.

Their "conservatism" is nothing more than theocracy wrapped in the worst excesses of the communist fascists.

The only thing they haven't done yet is murder people in their cause.. They prefer--against all expectation--to be more subtle.

OTOH, they are losing, and losing badly. Anyone here under 50? (I exclude the odd repressed homosexual who thinks his/her faith can change him/her. Hello Eddie! Hello Joycey!)

Communist Fascists
Ah, I see Mellor is back with his elf lords and ferries (his gods)! Mellor, for your information, a communist is an extreme leftist who believes that the state (government) owns everything and divides little portions out to the people. A fascist is an extreme rightist which believes that the state (government) owns the people and divides them into groups from strongest to weakest (Darwinian). The only thing these two groups have in common is that they are anti-theists or atheists.

Funny how special interest groups call religious people the very thing they stand against and, by practice, what they can never be.

As for me keeping my religion off of your civil rights: why don't you keep your civil rights to yourself and stop trying to outlaw religion. The courts have already started to do that since Everson v The Board of Education in 1947 when Justice Hugo Black used Jefferson's phrase (erroneously) that the 1st Amendment created "a wall of separation between church and state" and thus started the process of changing the understanding of "FREEDOM OF RELIGION" to "FREEDOM FROM RELIGION." This is, after all, what you are seeking is it not? That, comrade, is Communism; and that, oh friend of elves, is Fascism!

Silly corson
As you might know if you thought for a second, communists and fascists share a desire to retain power for themselves, though in slightly different forms. Atheism has nothing to do with it.

Either way, you're losing. Byeee!

Corson,

what they are trying to do is demean, debase and denigrate human life, which they hate. They hate their own lives and they hate the joy others, who strive for the truth, find in human life.

Mellor's guilt is nearly overwhelming. He knows repentance is his only hope and yet the chains of perversion he has forged around his free will cannot be broken by him alone.

Mellor
Anyone in power these days desires to stay in power. It doesn't matter if you are a liberal, a conservative, a fascist, a communist or gay. We don't have statesmen anymore, we have careermen and women. We don't have transformation leadership anymore - we have transactional leadership, i.e. "You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours (but it might take me a life time - you'll feel the results as we go along).

By the way, Atheism does have EVERYTHING to do with it! One is either a believer in God, or a believer in self (or government, or whatever).

A bunch of emotionalism from gays
But very little facts or logic.

If one truly loves another they will not support a sexual behavior that is harmful to the body and psyche, as well as totally perverse. One does not truly love someone and do nothing to stop bad behavior.

Robert in NY says, "Gay haters are bigots who want to impose their religious beliefs on others." My response is that "Religion and morality haters are bigots who want to impose their sexual behavior on others."

"The people who are against gay marriage are the same kind of people who made interracial marriage illegal." Illogical nonsense. I have never met a person who believed this. Interracial marriage is always people of the opposite sex, and no matter what one's skin color is, they are still men and women. Those who were against different colored people marrying were guilty of racial prejudice. Gay marriage (an oxymoron) is about two men or two women joining which is a whole different ball game. The two are not equal in any way no matter how much propaganda and emotionalism is brought forth.

Scooternyc says, "All values, morals and standards are personal and subjective." I suppose you believe there is no absolute truth? If morals are subjective, then it's my opinion against yours so I can bash in your face because I feel like it and you have nothing to say. A person could rape anyone on the street and you have no right to complain. You can't even complain about a bank robbery or murder because it's just your opinion if you think they are wrong actions. Utter stupidity to make such a statement!

Gay Marriage
>>Our kids will look at anti-gay bigotry today just we look at racist bigotry of the past.
And those who so passionately write against the fundamental law of love?
Believe you me, they'll have a hard time explaining their ignorance away.

Reply: No, like slavery in the past, these bigots will actually take credit for promoting tolerance of gays.

Save traditional marriage!!!

Fight the defiant same-sex sodomites whose agenda is to destroy government sanctioning of the life-giving state of coupling. Do not let their hatred and despair overpower right thinking folks.

Californians have it in their hands to deal a major setback to the defiant same-sex sodomite haters.

Homosexual marriage is fundamentally
different from racial marriage.

I know a black man who married a white woman; a black woman who married white man; a white man who married a whit woman; and a black man who married a black woman. The thing that all of these marriages had in common is that they ALL produced children. That is expectation of all marriages. That does not mean to say that children always happen.

I have heard of homosexuals marrying. What I have NEVER heard of is homosexual unions that produce children. The only thing tht I have heard that homosexual unions produce is more cases of STD's.

IMO the homosexuals seek to get some monetary benfits from the government (read taxpayers pockets) ths forcing societal acceptance and approvalof their abnormal lifestyle. As such, society (meaning the people who are expected to pay the freight) should have a right to mandate conditions concerning marriage. And the CCSS has NO business in forcing their beliefs on society.

we should help those who cannot
or will not help themselves:
"One of the Church's toughest duties is to speak the truth with love and confront the self-destructive ideas and behavior of any society, and often those societies resist. Our Christian "tough love" insists that God intends more for us than homosexual activity can ever offer. Our long standing Judeo-Christian tradition is coming under strong attack especially in America. Every young Catholic can expect to feel this pressure -- some of it even from dissenters within the Church, some of it from otherwise respected teachers or counselors. If you openly affirm the Church's teaching and ask your friend to question the "gay-positive" path, you will very likely get labeled "homophobic." It takes courage to speak an unpopular truth, but it's an act of real love. Reaffirm your love to your friend and hold your ground."
Very good advice.

It is somewhat
comforting to see that there are always the same few homosexuals and atheists who return to TH to speak their hatred to those of us who are Christian. Their numbers are small and we, as Christians, need to continue to stand up and be counted as soldiers of Christ. We didn't do our duty when Roe was becoming law in our country and we've seen the consequences. I commend and encourage all of the wonderful posters on TH to stand up to the hatred and, despite the venom that is spewed,continue to speak the truth in Jesus' name.

in a single aspect, gays can complain:


This thread is only at 50, and the gay argument is already exhausted. So transparent is their pretense. There is one factor that mitigates their futile anger.

Beating up on the never-justifiable gay agenda is so damn simple. It just begs for cheap shots. Every time they're quashed they get a new chance to play victims. "Nobody loves us."

My compunctions lead me to warn: Give them some understanding. They thirst for respectability so badly that every day they come back to be hurt all over again. It's the nature of their vice. For gays, nothing has ever been stronger than that inexplicable urge to screw other men. Not authority, not shame, certainly not unhappiness. They're indeed glad to live unhappy lives, as long as wanton life goes on. Not even AIDS is able to persuade a homosexual.

Since this is all so easy to see, there are countless do-good heterosexuals who can't wait to push militants gays into the abyss. Here in Town Hall that happens a lot.

We mustn't play God over them. It never has worked. Better to PRAY for their forgiveness. Jesus Christ died for each one of these traumatized souls. And He wouldn't want me to hurt a hair of their heads. > > > Please forgive homosexuals and lesbians, O most Holy and Sacred Heart of Jesus! Be merciful to them, as you were to poor lepers in Jerusalem; Hear us, O Lord! Amen.

Recent poll in California
A recent poll in California has Proposition #8 losing/failing 42 to 51.

dreadnaught
I do see your point, but I was wondering. Should we, as Christians, just ignore the insults and venom of the homosexual and atheist agenda? I realize that the few posters here who come again and again to TH probably are not willing to see truth--they are too far gone. Yet, for God, all things are possible. What do you suggest we do "online?" Of course, I'm assuming that we ARE already all praying for them....It's just that I'm old enough to see the damage that was done with abortion when the church "militant" did not stand up soon enough....

i hear you, true


Needless to say; we know when to speak out. You can't allow any of their hard-line activists the uncontested floor.

I'm only saying these are very tortured souls. If we must rebuke one, let it be seriously, not with open animosity. I've been guilty of showing an unchristian edge in my labors with this gang. Some are very savage, as if God were somehow getting away with something by denouncing their depraved activities.

I believe there is a Satan. He motivates hatred for God. He manipulates the worst of the lot.

Yet, for the sake of His Holy Son; we have to be faithful. Pray for them. We're all sinners, and we don't all carry such crosses. You know all this, nobody has to caution you. Just as we believe there is a devil; let us believe the Holy Spirit can calm our fears. Help is on the way!

Pray as well that God will preserve for us His holy sacrament of Matrimony, which is under very insidious attack in our times. God bless YOU, good soul.

Gay marriage
I am gay. I could not care less if governmental marriage rights are extended to gays and lesbians. I believe that there is a certain morality in being honest about my sexuality, if asked.

Cast the demons out of him?
Here is an interesting story in a South Carolina newspaper:

Gay man slides into home; he's 'out', not safe

An 18-year-old gay man from Anderson County, South Carolina, is claiming that when he returned to his home this past Sunday after attending a local gay pride parade, his less-than-pride-filled father proceeded to assault him with a baseball bat in order to “cast the demon of homosexuality out of him.” The Independent Mail has more on this alleged strike:

Anderson man batters gay son from home [Independent Mail]

dear swampie:


That should tell you, then;

Don't go to South Carolina. (i don't mean to scare you.)

To Dreadnaught
I have lived all my life in South Carolina. I wonder if his father will be forgiven by God for what he has done to his son?

dear higene:


When you have these cows, it leads you to make absurd accusations. Calm down. Be at peace.

Gays more than anybody ought to know they're doing the unspeakable. It isn't some nebulous, unknown activity that shouldn't be denounced by thinking people. It surpasses all that's vulgar and unclean. But it's your life. Do as you please.

In the interest of tolerance, we've done everything necessary to avoid confrontations about your private lives. That was the humane thing to do. I'm not sorry this has come to pass. As I said before, God loves you; and I myself am a confessed sinner.

That ought to convince you; don't force me or others to answer you all out of control. Mind your own house and keep it private.

The acronym "SSDD" comes to mind....
The "My God says it, therefore I expect my government to continue to oppress hummasekshuls" argument is fighting for air and gasping its last breaths. From an overwhelming majority some 20 to 25 years ago, to a roughly 50-50 division currently... The tables are turning.

"I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions, but laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors." --Thomas Jefferson

Glen Lavy Should be Disbarred
Glen Lavy and his friends at ADF are responsibile for perpetuating the lie that "same sex marriage" is legal.

Glen knows that it isnt' because it was explained to him by some very prominent Massachusets activists and lawyers but he continues to parrot the liberal lie that the "courts legalized same sex marriage" even though courts can't make law.

Lavy should be disbarred from practicing law.

Why incopetent and arrogant "lawyers" like him, Mat Staver, Jay Sekulow, David Franch, Jim Bopp, etc...still have their law licenses is beyond me.

But the truth about Glen Lavy's incopetence and arrogance will come out very soon.

Pardon the sp, but the end is still NIGH
hi

Higene?
Right...

Your response to Chatfield displays your intellectual dishonesty, or at least a serious lack of logic.

Obviously, no one can "force sexuality" on another person. What is meant by: "Religion and morality haters are bigots who want to impose their sexual behavior on others" is that homosexuals try to force their views of sexual morality on the rest of society. This is exhibited in schools where they teach that homosexuality is a "normal, alternative lifestyle," as well as the media, which for at least the last 20 years has been attempting to portray the homosexual lifestyle in a simliar fashion, while downplaying the value of traditional marriage.

Is there anyone who can deny that both the media and the government-run schools seek to remove God from everyday life while instilling their own "virtues" into society?

Maybe, if you had thought about this, instead of relying on hysterics to provoke an emotional response, people might take you more seriously.

BTW: There is nothing "hygenic" about homosexual relations. May want to rethink your name...

Higene, agood rant, but it failed.
Simple Higene, the bible is explicit about men,men, women, women etc. The bible when it was written did not go into details as to the why of it all, probably because people at that time would not have understood.

Take anal sex, your favorite. The anus was designed specifically for output, throughput, and NOT input. If you use the anus for something other than its intended use, you end up with sickness, death, and mental issues. The bible never expounds on that, humans have found out just how right the bible is.

The bible never says what will happen, it just says don't do it. People have chosen not to listen. People who have tried incestuous relationships have found out how the results of those relationships have severe health and mental problems. The bible days, do not do it. Again, the results show the good reasoning set out in the bible.

Religious beliefs are valid. Just as valid as your pro homosexual beliefs. In fact people like you are the definition of bigotry. You hate religion, morality, and you force your belief about your sexual preferences on others and demand acceptance. That is true unadulterated bigotry.

And there is historical proof everywhere homosexual marriage has never worked. What do you want? Chapter and verse on all of the failures? People figured out long ago a simple fact, homosexuality should not be condoned in marriage.

Homosexuality has been around for milleniums Your statements that somehow homosexual marriage is a new phenomenon exposes your lack of knowledge and cements the premise that your arguements are ideological rather than factual.

To Dred and truetolife
You obviously are unaware of it, but you speak in a language all your own to each other, catholicspeak, which has no meaning among us citizens. Here we speak English. And we know that the Constitution which is the basis of our social behavior does not include any part, even a small one, from Catholic catechism. It doesn't matter how many times you talk about consummation of marriage, or any other nonsense you interject. The state, in 50 states, provides licences to couples who want to declare a lasting relationship with each other, and share social and legal benefits of that relationship. In two of the states this includes homosexual couples. The state doesn't care whether the couples ever have sex, or whatever kind of sex they have. For eddy too, so called "sodomy" describes sex that millions of heterosexuals enjoy too.

We are not talking about praying, or about sin, or about redemption. All that is part of Catholicworld, not of modern American society. Fifty years ago you two would find interracial marriage to be abominable, and would cite chapter and verse to justify that belief.
You are free to hate or pray for anyone, and to believe in a world where people walk on water or have babies without sex. If you are selling things, and somebody came and said "I will buy this DVD player from you, and in payment I will give you this envelope with magic beans, that will bring you great fortune in the future". Would you do accept this bargain? It is the same bargain that you are proposing, for us to accept your magic beans, which will become valid when the Jew who walked on water will come back from the dead. Any day now.
Not only that, but you pick and choose from the Bible. Jesus said nothing about homosexuals, but plenty about divorce. Why don't you ask for an amendment to ban divorce? Why don't you campaign for adulterers to be stoned to death?
Because your faith is a sham.

Anderson659
Yes- Please do give us chapter and verse on the specific instances where homosexual marriage contracts were tried and unquestionably contributed to the fall of said society.

I forgot action
Disbarred for what? Practicing law in a manner you as a non lawyer disagree with?

Disbarred because of his moral beliefs. Do you realize what you are advocating? The criminalization of anyone who disagrees with your rhetoric!

And pray tell just who are you? Another anointed one ? You must have missed the flight to the Brandenburg gate. You could have brushed up on some ways to enforce your beliefs while you were there. Jonah Goldberg has a book out that describes you perfectly. Liberal Fascism. You should read it.

Seth, your request
No need to do that Seth.

Why don't you pass along one civilization from any point in time that embraced homosexual marriage ???. That is the challenge Sethy, not you offering a bogus gotcha question as an answer.

Come on Seth, I made a statement. Challenge it Seth, find one civilization Seth.Anyone who believes in homosexual marriage should have that answer at their fingertips.

Seth, psst, look hard at Greece. Remember the sexual preferences of the Greek warrior? Check out a few books and read.

a little anecdote
My wife and I lived in a condo in southern California years ago. The rental we were next to had a pair of young lesbians living in it. They had little interaction with their neighbors on either side.

It became a common occurrence, after a while; for the police to arrive and take away the bigger of these lesbian partners. She'd leave wearing handcuffs; in the squad car.

The reason was plain, because over time we had been hearing arguments through the wall; and sometimes hard thumps against it. The big girl was beating up on the smaller one. At times she'd be slammed against the walls. I guess she would finally phone for the cops.

I know this can also happen in the homes of real married spouses. It can destroy a real marriage. But that was the only time I ever saw police coming to take away a woman. In ordinary cases it's the man who goes to jail. Strange!

AlphaOmega
I like you, If I had a sister, I would let you date her, that is if you like women.

Your diatribe is that of a person who hates religion, morality, and tries to force his sexual preferences on those by any means. That is the classic bigot and fraud. And your sexual preferences command you to demean others who suggest you may be wrong.Another anointed and enlightened one among us who must lecture us.

If you think you can defend what you just wrote you need help, lots of it.

Emotionalism
Is still all we get from the "gay" crowd (who are really not all that happy in life because they known they are behaving perversely).

Anomins, THANK YOU for your response while I was away. Yes, Mr unHigenic, what the gay people are forcing on us is their demand for acceptance of their sexual behavior; it is being force-fed in the public school system, speaking against it is decried as "hate" speech and in other countries even hate crime.

Swampfox, too bad about that "demon exorcism"; that guy had no clue about Scripture if he things homosexuality is caused by a demon any more than adultery is caused by a demon (although one who is demon possessed MAY engage in these activities)

Sister Anita sounds cultic and certainly not biblical.

As for lack-of-Higene, you say the Bible says little about homosexuality but how many times must it be mentioned if God says one time that He finds it to be an abomination? How many times do you require God to tell you that something is wrong? God's attitude about homosexual behavior is amply noted in Lev. 18:22 and 20:13 in the O.T., andRom. 1:26-27; 1 Cor.6:9-10 in the N.T., with other references in Gen., Jude, and 1 Tim. It's wrong, period, and you know it.

I am "intellectually honest" and being around a "gay" person doesn't make me uncomfortable any more than being around heterosexual fornicators and adulterers; I have worked with all of these types of people. Does homosexual behavior disgust me? Yes, but so does adultery. Do I want all gays to "disappear" etc? No, I want the same tolerance from them that they demand from me; not to have to accept unnatural and perverse sexual behavior as normal. I don't want legal sanction for the sexual behavior of 2-3% of the population, and I don't want it force-fed to my kids.

Glen Lavy's Hypocrisy and Malpractice
Exposed!

http://www.undergroundjournal.net/members/theunderground/ad minpages/RebuttalToLavy

You hypocrite Glen Lavy. You have helped destroy marriage, religious freedom and the rule of law. You are another cowardly counterfeit "conservatve" lawyer propping up impotent and void judicial court opinions as if they were the supreme law of the land. All the blood that flows from Roe v Wade and the social destruction from Goodridge and similar bogus opinions are on your hands and those of fake conservative mercenaries like Sekulow, Hewitt, Bopp, French, Coulter, Bauer, Perkins and David and Rush Limbaugh.


The Bible Says It, I Believe It
Folks, Glenn is right. The Bible is true. How do we know? Because it SAYS SO, stupid!

At my church, we take the Bible literally. If it says men kissing each other on the lips is an abomination, it's an abomination! Mark 16:17-18 and Luke 10:19 tell us that we can pick up rattlesnakes and drink poison without getting hurt, and I BELIEVE IT! "And these signs shall follow them that believe: In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

There's no "taking things in context", folks. If you don't take the Bible at face value, you're going to wake up in Hell being sodomized by red-finned water demons in a literal lake of fire for all eternity.

In Deuteronomy 21:10-14, God tells his armies to forcefully take the women, shave their hair and trim their nails and make them their wives by force. Rape was A.O.K in the Old Testament, but that doesn't make it right now unless God tells you to!

READ YOUR BIBLE!! IT ALL MAKES SENSE!!

just remember
even the demons flee from homosexual acts. Scary, scary stuff. God, in His Divine Mercy, keeps putting the truth in the way of those who would practice such evils. Your free will will either save you from yourselves or you will damn yourselves. The choice is yours. The truth is simple and free of charge. Life is serious--not a sex fest.

TrueToLife is an apostate
TrueToLife, you are preaching a false Gospel when you talk about free will. Repent or perish.

John Calvin (a most excellent interpreter of Scripture) wrote: "Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He hath determined in Himself what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damnation for others."

That is, He for-ordained some to perish, others for eternal life. Those of us who are His precious elect can not earn our salvation, nor can we choose Hell.

You are preaching a damnable Gospel and are as Hell-bound as the homos you critique.
See here, fool: http://www.godhatesfags.com/written/reports/20060331_god-l oves-everyone-lie.pdf

For Anderson659
My sexual preference is often.
As for your sister, I am not sure. How many sex positions does she know? I don't want to have to break in yet another clueless woman.....

I'm joking. You can keep your sister. I am a 60-yr old straight white guy with married sons.

Now that we introduced ourselves: why are you trying to insult me? All you do is spout off your completely ignorant opinion about me, and you do not for one minute even attempt to refute or even discuss my positions. That's ignorant and rude.

I don't hate your religion. I was a Christian for 30 years. What I don't do is VENERATE it blindly, unquestioningly. And you haven't told me, why do you people tend to pick and choose pieces from the Bible, that suit your arguments.
Jesus personally said nothing about homosexuality. But he said plenty about divorce. How about a nice federal amendment to criminalize divorce?
The Bible also says lots against adultery. How about the death penalty for adultery? By stoning?
I bet you would lose more than half of Republican representatives (and 3 quarters of the Democrats...)

Glen Lavy's Hypocrisy and Malpractice
Exposed!

http://www.undergroundjournal.net/members/theunderground/ad minpages/RebuttalToLavy

You hypocrite Glen Lavy. You have helped destroy marriage, religious freedom and the rule of law. You are another cowardly counterfeit "conservatve" lawyer propping up impotent and void judicial court opinions as if they were the supreme law of the land. All the blood that flows from Roe v Wade and the social destruction from Goodridge and similar bogus opinions are on your hands and those of fake conservative mercenaries like Sekulow, Hewitt, Bopp, French, Coulter, Bauer, Perkins and David and Rush Limbaugh.

To several of the posters
Someone said that courts do not MAKE law. I am afraid that poster does not not know squat about the law making process in this country. And, yes, some Christians seem to pick and choose parts of the Bible to condemn homosexuals like no other minority group. Someone can have an abortion and then years later have remorse and ask for forgiveness. I am homosexual. I can't change. And, yes, I did try to change. I wanted to be "normal" like everyone else. But, I have come to the realization that God made me who I am.

questions for swampfox...
Can you please show me where in the Constitution the judiciary possesses law making powers?

You say that homosexuality is innate and as "proof" cite your own futile attempt to be "normal." Well if it is "inate" or genetic, why have no scientific studies born this causal link out? Also, are the hundreds of thousands of ex-practicing homosexuals all in "denial?"

Glen Lavy's Hypocrisy and Malpractice
Exposed!

http://www.undergroundjournal.net/members/theunderground/ad minpages/RebuttalToLavy

You hypocrite Glen Lavy. You have helped destroy marriage, religious freedom and the rule of law. You are another cowardly counterfeit "conservatve" lawyer propping up impotent and void judicial court opinions as if they were the supreme law of the land. All the blood that flows from Roe v Wade and the social destruction from Goodridge and similar bogus opinions are on your hands and those of fake conservative mercenaries like Sekulow, Hewitt, Bopp, French, Coulter, Bauer, Perkins and David and Rush Limbaugh.

Alpha Omegaa
I was wrong, you do have a sense of humor. If you were a Christian for 30 years, and I will assume you were, you would know the bible speaks of Homosexuality. Jesus was the son of god not his biblical editor. biblical messages are clear. Don't do certain things. The consequences are left to the imagination but you are warned. So AlphaOmega what is so hard about that point to understand?

Did you ever read the old testament? Or the new ? Obviously since you are a 60 year old guy who was a Christian for 30 years my presumption is that you are not now, and haven't been for some time. Although you would not admit it, you are probably an atheist or a homosexual yourself.

The core of the issue is, homosexual marriage does not work. Cite something, anywhere anytime in the past that has been successful for a period of time? Can you? Or are you going to continue with a faux intellectual exercise intended to distract. So Alpha Omega ??? In all human history, where ???

Sister Anita
Sister, use context instead of word substitution, and your version of what it means taken out of its context.

The posts you wrote are not biblical and appear designed as sarcasm to believers.

Adjust your meds. Try accepting God into your life.

Swampfox
Just as someone who has had an abortion and, years later, asks forgiveness and is forgiven--so it can be with any sinner. Being homosexual isn't a sin. It is the behavior that is a sin. Just as sinful as any single, non-married individual. So, if you are looking for forgiveness it is certainly there for you just as for someone who had an abortion. Celibacy is a cross, but not a death sentence. If I wasn't married, it would be as sinful for me to engage in sexual relations as it is for you. Many, many individuals can do this. Why can't you?

Sister Anita
First of all, you're probably going to hell unless you repent of calling me a "fool." Do you know any biblical passages? Secondly. You're dumb. The idea of predestination and free will cannot be written about in 2000 words allowed by TH. DUH. Start with this and then, if you have a brain, read up and learn!!! Good luck with that! Public school educated are you??
There are two opposite and equally erroneous positions about predestination that have always been rejected in authentic Catholic teaching. The first is that of the Pelagians.[1] Pelagius taught that a person, by the exercise of his free will, could obtain salvation unaided by grace. The obvious error here is that God has nothing to do with salvation.



Calvinists and Jansenists teach the second error.[2] They teach that Christ died only for the elect; those predestined to salvation. The rest He predestined to eternal damnation by His own decree. Furthermore, they taught that if God predestined someone to eternal life, it is impossible that he should fall away. Likewise, one chosen for damnation has no choice in the matter, but will surely perish in hell. In short, the individual has nothing to do with his own salvation.

There's your starting point. Ready? Set? Go!!!!




About what, eddie?
"Mellor's guilt is nearly overwhelming."

Can't wait to hear this one.

Corson, it seems, has half a brain
"Anyone in power these days desires to stay in power. It doesn't matter if you are a liberal, a conservative, a fascist, a communist or gay. We don't have statesmen anymore, we have careermen and women. We don't have transformation leadership anymore - we have transactional leadership, i.e. "You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours (but it might take me a life time - you'll feel the results as we go along)."

This is the half that's operational.

"By the way, Atheism does have EVERYTHING to do with it! One is either a believer in God, or a believer in self (or government, or whatever)"

Or whatever? What are you smokin'?

Glen Lavy's Hypocrisy and Malpractice

Exposed! You have to see how much of a moron Glen Lavy is. Read this...

http://www.undergroundjournal.net/members/theunderground/ad minpages/RebuttalToLavy

You hypocrite Glen Lavy. You have helped destroy marriage, religious freedom and the rule of law. You are another cowardly counterfeit "conservatve" lawyer propping up impotent and void judicial court opinions as if they were the supreme law of the land. All the blood that flows from Roe v Wade and the social destruction from Goodridge and similar bogus opinions are on your hands and those of fake conservative mercenaries like Sekulow, Hewitt, Bopp, French, Coulter, Bauer, Perkins and David and Rush Limbaugh.

Sure, Glen Chatfield
"My response is that "Religion and morality haters are bigots who want to impose their sexual behavior on others.""

Now let's hear just how I might impose my sexual behavior on you, Glenn.

This should be good.

anderson659
I quote from my post in the other article:

How can you even ask for proof that any civilization has embraced it? It's kind of hard to show that when it has never previously been allowed! That logic makes NO sense! If that logic were valid then NOTHING new would ever be allowed! The FACT is that times change and it is high time that same sex couples be granted the same dignity, respect and rights that opposite sex couples take for granted!

END QUOTE!

Heinz has it exactly right
"No, like slavery in the past, these bigots will actually take credit for promoting tolerance of gays."

They think they should take credit for the prohibition on murder despite Hammurabai. They think this nation was founded on xian principles, when in fact the Enlightenment is explicitly about getting some rationality into public life. They think the Constitution is based on Xianity (where's the clause about not taking the lord's name in vain. Or adultery.)

That's what makes their memeplex so powerful. If it's good (as defined today), it must be xian.

Glen Lavy's Hypocrisy and Malpractice
Exposed! You have to see how much of a moron Glen Lavy is. Read this...

http://www.undergroundjournal.net/members/theunderground/ad minpages/RebuttalToLavy

You hypocrite Glen Lavy. You have helped destroy marriage, religious freedom and the rule of law. You are another cowardly counterfeit "conservatve" lawyer propping up impotent and void judicial court opinions as if they were the supreme law of the land. All the blood that flows from Roe v Wade and the social destruction from Goodridge and similar bogus opinions are on your hands and those of fake conservative mercenaries like Sekulow, Hewitt, Bopp, French, Coulter, Bauer, Perkins and David and Rush Limbaugh.

Lovelsequal
Your'e here !

And still can't answer the same question. Where has homosexual marriage been accepted ??. To say it is a new concept is so laughable that is like calling a full moon new every time it happens.

Maybe you can't understand the point, homosexuality has been around as long as humans have. Homosexual marriage has been tried and does not work. The bible and religion said homosexuality does not work, they are right.

What says it works? Religion and human experience says it does not.

What reference do you have at any point in time anywhere, that says it does? Where? There is none because it does not work. You are trying to reinvent the wheel. You might as well be stating the earth is flat because I can not offer you proof otherwise.

State a time, reference document of the past that legitimizes your position.

Birdman has a point
"IMO the homosexuals seek to get some monetary benfits from the government (read taxpayers pockets)"

Damn right! If you have these rights, so should I. Of course, we would all be better off without these benefits, but just wait for the outcry when social "security" is abolished, or the deduction for brats removed from tax returns.

"As such, society (meaning the people who are expected to pay the freight) should have a right to mandate conditions concerning marriage."

Yup. I'm paying the freight, so I get to be able to married.

OTOH, you do have a point. If I could refuse to pay to educate your offspring, not pay social "security," reduce my taxes by living with my partner and a few other things, I'd gladly give up my right to marriage.

Action
How many times are you going to post your babble?

Stop now or I will call the men in the little white coats !

Naught
"It is somewhat comforting to see that there are always the same few homosexuals and atheists who return to TH to speak their hatred to those of us who are Christian. "

What?

I cannot speak for others, but I don't hate you, naught. I hate the child abuse of the average xian, let alone the sexual abuse of the clergy; the ant-science ideas your promote; the special privileges you demand; the civil rights you take away--all in the name of your sick religion. I mean, who else would celebrate eating their god?

No. I don't hate you. I have only pity that you are so easily conned.

Go Sister Anita!
Sister Anita is hilarious!

The haters on this thread, meanwhile, seem to think that anal/oral sodomy is confined to gays, and that only gays are obsessed with sex. Also hilarious, in a different way!

Anyway, you gay-bashers who want to pretend your particular brand of religious belief is "the one true way" are a reason so many Republicans like myself find it harder and harder to stay in the GOP.

Go Sister Anita!

Excellent advice, 'naught
"That ought to convince you; don't force me or others to answer you all out of control. Mind your own house and keep it private."

Well, the second sentence is. The first is nonsense. Nothing new there!

While I'm here, apologies for attributing to you truetioife's blather.


Who is more repetitive?
Action or Anderson659? Tough one.

But I know who is the stupider. Anderson659. Try this, for example: "Homosexual marriage has been tried and does not work."

Where? You make the claim. You provide the evidence.


Thank you, Sister Anita!
For the best laughs all day. (Yes, I know. I need to get out more.)

That some people (the usual suspects) actually took you seriously really takes the cake. We know these people are credulous (how else they believe this drivel?), but there's credulous and there's insane. Yikes!

Mellor Sj2
Actually, you are the stupid one. I don't have to prove anything because my statement stands on its face without challengre.

And you can't stand it!!

History proves me right across every page in time. And you challenge me to provide you proof?

That challenge is idiocy on your part, the ball clearly is in your court to prove me wrong and you can't!!

You have no arguement! You lost! Now you resort to name calling! How intolerant! And funny!




I asked for you for evidence
You make the claim that same-sex marriage has never worked.

For that to be true, you have to provide evidence for two things. First, that same-sex marriage has been tried. And, second, that it failed.

If you can't do that, you have no case.

If you *can* do that, then your next step would be to try to show that this failed experiment makes any predictions about the future. How many times did Edison try to make an incandescent bulb, eh?

I have no case to prove.

Sister Anita, Mellor and the others
Sister Anita is a laugh! Any believer will use her words to show how deceitful homosexual activists are. Mellor thinks he is the anointed one of knowledge, and the rest are all baloney. Take a look at Dennis Pragers column and the phony posts.

Guess what? These poeple are afraid of believers. They demean, label, and threaten those who believe. Look what they say. Has there ever been a better primer for how someone plans to bully you into denying your faith and moral values?

These people can not offer you an example in time of where homosexual marriage was accepted. They are afreaid of the consequences of their lifestyle. Diminishing believers somehow makes it right for them.

What a ring of frauds.

Mellor Sj2
He is right, he has no case to prove. Dead on. He can't offer you a single point in time where homosexual marriage was accepted.

He has no case ! As I said, state one point in time where homosexual marriage was the norm anywhere!!

Surely as a practicing back door boy, you would have that answer at your fingertips. Get off your knees, and find something, chop, chop!

Quit challenging me to prove my point, I already have! History no matter who wrote it agrees with my statement. You can't prove otherwise, YOU LOST ! ADMIT IT!

You are left holding yor backside, babbling to Alpha Omega on how to deal with facts!

The way to get out of a hole, 659...
... is first to stop digging.

"These poeple are afraid of believers."

I don't know about "these people," but I'm not afraid of believers. What possible reason would I have for that? They have lost many battles, and they are losing this one. Nothing to fear here.

"They demean, label, and threaten those who believe. Look what they say."

Show me one threat. Go on.

"Has there ever been a better primer for how someone plans to bully you into denying your faith and moral values?"

Try to keep your story straight. Is it happening or is it being planned?

"These people can not offer you an example in time of where homosexual marriage was accepted."

Changing our story now, are we? First it's "it has never worked" and now it's "it has never been accepted." Which is it, Anderson?

Mellor Sj2
Don't have to change anything Mellor Sj2, you took the bait.

Change one word and you spring to action with a challenge. You are so utterly a fraud. And still you can't answer the core question, where is a civilization that approved of homosexual marriage? Name one? Mr. No case. Mr, I can't answer that because there isn't one.

You have no facts, just ideology and a hatred for religion and morals. You have been challenged and found wanting. You truly are the emperor with no clothes.

You and your ring of homosexual activist posters have had your try. You lost, big time.

I have a suggestion for you, why not take a vacation to Iran? The president there says there are no homosexuals there. You could be the first. And bring along your homosexual wife.

Ask them what they think of homosexual marriage. After all they are the fastest growing religion in America.

My! My!
(1) I don't need an example of where it worked. I never said it did. But if you want one, look at the UK, or the Netherlands, or RSA, or California, for that matter.

(2) *YOU* said that same-sex marriage has failed. I repeat: For that to be so, it has first to be tried. And failed.

Neither (1) nor (2) makes a blind bit of difference to any argument about same-sex marriage. The Fourteenth guarantees equal rights; the CSC enforced it. Even Arizona ditched Prop 107.

Mellor
#2 It (homosexual marriage) has been tried and failed. Are you so dense that you actually believe your failure to acknowledge that FACT constitutes the denial of its validity?

What a funny!!!!!

I don't have to prove two things to you ! You have the ability to checkmate me. All you have to do is offer one point in time ! YOU CAN'T

California, what a joke. Since you are challenged, remember, in past history, i.e. before the USA, or even the bible if you choose.

P.S. Check out a book on the Greek states and see how dense you now look.


Like I said Anderson
The first step is to stop digging.

Or maybe you should lay off the bottle first.

Mellor Sj2
Is that all you can muster ? Lay off the bottle? How cheap. I expected a much better insult than that from you.

Since you suggested that I stop digging, maybe you should take yor own advice. Your hole is pretty deep and wide form where I stand.

And you can't stand it! You can't answer the simplest challenge!

This is funny!

MellorSJ2
Thank you, I will. Come back anytime when you feel like you need to be totally thrashed again. Next time bring some facts for your side instead of your ring of sorry posters.

In short next time you come to a battle of wits, come armed with something.

Battle of wills?
Oh no, my little friend.

Your repeated assertions of victory have no meaning, as any fair-minded observer would attest.

You can come out and play when you actually have something to say.

Down to the Nub of things
MellorSJ2 Jul 18, 2008 replies to my post, 'IMO the homosexuals seek to get some monetary benfits from the government (read taxpayers pockets)':

"If you have these rights, so should I. Of course, we would all be better off without these benefits, but just wait for the outcry when social "security" is abolished, or the deduction for brats removed from tax returns."

If you have the right to redefine marriage via activist supreme court judges, then 'straights' have the right to legislate the normal, traditional meaning of the word to firm up the understanding of the word's usage.

As to your point that "we would all be better off without these benefits," you seem to forget that it is the 'straights' that have children who are the backbone of this country. Without those children, this country will eventually cease to exist. So you already benefit from our children protecting you. And, yet, you cannot produce children of your own to help protect you and yours. Doesn't that already make you a leech to society? Like all leeches you just want more and more from me.

As to your last point in your paragraph, "...just wait for the outcry when social "security" is abolished, or the deduction for brats removed from tax returns."

Do you not recall, that GWB DID try to fix SSS but was prevented by Democrats? So is it you who would squawk loudest with the death of SSS?

Nub continued...
Still referencing my post, 'As such, society (meaning the people who are expected to pay the freight) should have a right to mandate conditions concerning marriage', MellorSJ
says: "Yup. I'm paying the freight, so I get to be able to married."

And society has NO say in what constitutes 'marriage'? Society has NO say in what it considers acceptable? If that were the case, then society can have no say in pedophilia, beastiality, prostitution, pornagraphy, etc. Somehow, I disagree.

MellorSJ says, "If I could refuse to pay to educate your offspring, not pay social "security," reduce my taxes by living with my partner and a few other things, I'd gladly give up my right to marriage."

If you were to argue strictly for the elimination of the Dept of Ed, and SSS then you would be on my side. But this is not about reducing government is it? It is, and will always be, about your insistence that all in society accept and approve (even if by force of arms) your lifestyle. I think you know that will not happen.

OTOH you could abide by the will of the majority.

Birdman II
stated: OTOH you could abide by the will of the majority.

Amen to that! But this small percentage of mentally ill people refuse to admit their mental illness. Just like schizophrenics off their meds. It still doesn't take away the illness to say, "I feel fine."

Oh, dear.
I saw some flaunting of marriage like you wouldn't believe. This man and woman couldn't be happy to marry in the closet. Oh, no. They had to drive around town, honking their horns and pulling their cans so that everyone could see their privilege. So, I followed them into a bar where I learned that they're both adulterers! It was a second marriage for both and Jesus tells us that a second marriage is a fake marrige. Heck, he told the multiply-married Samaritan woman whom he met at the well just that. So, in Jesus's eyes, they're not even married! Just like that John McCain, who sleeps with his mistress and then has her stand beside him at the podium.

Molly
You're right. Heterosexuals screw up too. So, what's your point?

is molly forgetting something?


Molly is apparently the typical compulsive gossip; like the old Biddies who spy through the curtains at a neighbor, hoping to see some dirt they can spill to their other Biddie pals.

We are all sinners, Molly. Gossip is a sin. You think you're observant and wise about other souls. But when it turns into gross and malicious gossip (on the Internet !) you offend God. Not as much, likely, as homosexuals who go around trying to defile marriage. Yet you aren't without blame.

I have a relative like you-- endlessly gossiping. We call her "The Gazette." Try not to be one here? It's shameful.

response to mellor or meg/al


I forget which one of those idiots wrote:

"The Constitution which is the basis of our social behavior does not include any part, even a small one, from Catholic catechism. It doesn't matter how many times you talk about consummation of marriage, or any other nonsense you interject. The state, in 50 states, provides licences to couples who want to declare a lasting relationship with each other, and share social and legal benefits of that relationship. In two of the states this includes homosexual couples. The state doesn't care whether the couples ever have sex, or whatever kind of sex they have. For eddy too, so called "sodomy" describes sex that millions of heterosexuals enjoy too.

We are not talking about praying, or about sin, or about redemption.

You are free to hate or pray for anyone, and to believe in a world where people walk on water or have babies without sex.
Because your faith is a sham."

I'd like to answer this gibberish calmly, over a number of posts. OK ?

1.) You're wrong; no aspect of the Constitution has ever mentioned our social behavior. (One blot on you.)

2.) The cathecism may not be binding for all Americans. But it isn't so easy to dismiss, in an area such as *legitimate* marriage. You are committed to invalid marriage, something not brought up in our Constitution even in our upside-down present day. So; don't appeal to the Constitution. It's not your private possession.

Next installment, ---->


Birdman says (and truetolife agrees)
"If you have the right to redefine marriage via activist supreme court judges, then 'straights' have the right to legislate the normal, traditional meaning of the word to firm up the understanding of the word's usage."

This is nothing to do with "redefining" marriage. Not a word of law has been changed. It's you lot who want to do that!

The courts have simply insisted that the existing words apply uniformly to all citizens. Which is their job.

As for "OTOH you could abide by the will of the majority" to which truetolife says "Amen," this is again precisely the job of the courts--to protect oppressed minorities against majoritarianism.

More from bridman
"you seem to forget that it is the 'straights' that have children who are the backbone of this country. Without those children, this country will eventually cease to exist. So you already benefit from our children protecting you. And, yet, you cannot produce children of your own to help protect you and yours. Doesn't that already make you a leech to society? Like all leeches you just want more and more from me."

How does your five-year old protect me? He has a gun and is on the front line?

Birdman III
"Do you not recall, that GWB DID try to fix SSS but was prevented by Democrats? So is it you who would squawk loudest with the death of SSS?"

I do. And as usual, he was woefully incompetent.

Why would I "squawk loudest"? Because you believe me to be a "liberal?"


Strawman from birdman
"And society has NO say in what constitutes 'marriage'? Society has NO say in what it considers acceptable? If that were the case, then society can have no say in pedophilia, beastiality.. Somehow, I disagree."


Neither of these are between consenting adults. Society has a right to protect its own.

As for "prostitution, pornagraphy," the government has no business there, so long as these activities take place far away from children.


Molly
Great post. Of course, it went straight past our two resident busybodies.

They'll never see that they are using their bible only to reinforce their prejudices.

I haven't any prejudice
My faith prohibits discrimination, Me.

I'm not prejudiced against any gay who leaves me alone.

I still do not recognize any so-clled marriage in a gay union. Civil unions I can approve; of curse. But marriage between two men is a misnomer. Nothing takes place between two of the same sex that can make it marriage. You named it OK, as an arrangement, or relationship. I'm being honest. You are intellectually dishonest.

I see you're making progress, 'naught
If you wish to say (as you appear to do) that the word "marriage" should be reserved for a church ceremony, then we can have an agreement.

If you are saying that you choose that a same-sex "union" should have different rights and privileges afforded by the state from a different-sex marriage, then we must fight on.

As for you last sentence, please provide evidence.

reply/mellors, al/meg part 2


"The state, in 50 states, provides licences to couples who want to declare a lasting relationship with each other, and share social and legal benefits of that relationship. In two of the states this includes homosexual couples."

The state has no power vested in it; on the matter of gays buggering one another and declaring it "marriage." You can eat your state.


"The state doesn't care whether the couples ever have sex, or whatever kind of sex they have. For eddy too, so called "sodomy" describes sex that millions of heterosexuals enjoy too." That's your perverted opinon. In fact, no state marries us. It is the two spouses who confer on one another the sacrament of matrimonyy. The priest or minister is witnessing for the Church. Gays have no sacrament; hence, no marriage rite. The state cannot perform rites, period. It merely sells you a license.

Sodomy is a mortal sin. You may not care; but when you die that will consign you and your ugly gay boyfriend both to everlasting punishment, i. e., Hell. If heterosexuals do it, every one of those "millions" will be with you in hell. God is not mocked.,m



Spoke too soon!
"God is not mocked?????"

Don't you read my posts?

Perfectly


Yeah; I saw your remarks. You mock God; here in this life.

But in the next life, you'll regret it. In a few years, but God can wait. That's the one argument all of us must lose. He is the Lord; you have to fall into His hands inevitably. Which is why the apostle said: "God is not mocked."

You didn't believe this? Don't worry; He'll remind you.

@ MellorSJ2
I didn't know how to reply to two guys who can't descry satire. Honestly, I pitied them. And I especially pitied the person who warned me not to judge, while judging my persona.

Molly
Quite so.

It's sad really.

Naught
I'd worry more about myself if I were you.

If you don't stop eating mushrooms you will be sauteed in the Great Wok for eternity. Toadstools 13:13 reads "For he who eateth the House of the Lord shall one day meet the Great Wok and be treated in the same way. Woe is he!"

drednaught
It is indeed a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
God isn't finished with atheists yet. He continually puts Himself in their way because of His Divine Mercy. But mercy doesn't last after death. Then it's judgement time.

Hey Molly!
Figure out those heresies yet??? I know things don't come easy to you--but you've had a lot of time already.....or are you too busy smokin the doobie....

The doobie?
Are you one of those curmudgeons who think it's still the 60s and you've got to keep those damn hippies off your lawn?

"Get off my grass, hippies!"

I'm quite clear about flirting with fire.

I poked you and instead of saying, "Forgive her, Father," you fired back.

I judged you and instead of judging not, you judged me.

And I see that you haven't yet sold you computer to give all you have to the poor to trust in God. Instead, you twist and constrict your alleged Christianity to hating gays.

To.

hating.

gays.

And probably to voting Republican. To voting for the torture guys.

Let's see.

Jesus was tortured.

You're allegedly pro-Jesus.

So, you vote for the torture party.

And you think that makes Jesus smile?

You've got a logjam in your eye, pumpkin.

@ truetolife
I'm assuming that you, like most alleged Christians, rarely read the Bible and when you read it, you read godhatesfags phrases, not even understanding that the text was tweaked by some Victorians with an agenda (the Straight Agenda TM) and has since stayed that way.

So many alleged Christians read Jesus's line, "Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me," as, "All I have to do is say the magic words and I'm whooshed to cuddling on Jesus's lap!"

Now, let's see. What was Jesus's way? Poverty. Rejecting the wealth that Satan used in the desert to seduce Jesus. Suffering. How ya doin' with all that, truetolife? Your computer alone makes you a rich man in a global sense.

Why don't you emulate Jesus's life?

He said, "I am...the life...."

You don't because it's hard. You'd rather be on the side of the torturers than submit to suffering. And you try to distract yourself and others from your monstrous cowardice by attacking gay people.

Let's see: Jesus had a lot of folks following him around for years and he talked about gay people how many times?

Zero.

Nada.

Zip.

dear molly, put a sock in it

"I'm assuming that you, like most alleged Christians, rarely read the Bible," OK -- What about it? You may read the Bible ten hours a day & misinterpret 50% of the texts; as millions of "born agains" keep doing. You'll deny that, naturally.

You continue:

". . . you read godhatesfags phrases, not even understanding that the text was tweaked by some Victorians with an agenda."

Reply: --Who told you that malarkey??? First: Read all you want, God has no hatred for that gay person. Nowhere does it say such a thing. God says an act of depravity is abominable to Him. He definitely says it. The apostle Paul as well names that evil practice as cause for a man's damnation.

It shows how badly you know the scriptures.

PLUS; nobody "tweaked" anything. You must be crazy. __Victorian ! ! ! ___ That's a crock.


Dearest dreadnaught,
its' been tweaked and tweaked and tweaked. Do you read Aramaic? If not, then why not? Don't you care enough about your soul to read the original text?

Post here no more. Instead, learn Aramaic. Then we'll talk about tweaking.

And have you ever eaten shrimp? Lobster? Oysters? Clams? Crab? All abominations.

Have you ever attended a second marriage? That's adultery.

When you menstruate, do you flee the city as the Bible decrees? If not, does your wife?

I can't take your religion seriously until you do. Likewise with Mr. Lavy. You're both free to practice Christianity, but you don't. You hoard. You judge. You don't kill recalcitrant kids. You don't poke out your lustful eyes. You don't cut off your masturbating hands. Why not? Don't you believe?

Again, sell your computer. Sell your home. Give all you have to the poor. Submit to God's mercy and grace.

But you won't, because in your heart of hearts, you don't believe. You substitute judging gay people for true belief.

Dreadnaught is gone.
He sold his computer, his car, his home. He gave everything to the poor. He can post no more.

He is a true believer.

put two socks in it


Yes, Molly:

You misinterpret at will, what doesn't please you. Not unusual, you're another believer in "ministers" who abandoned the faith of the holy apostles.

No tweaks can change the Holy Spirit, Molly. You and your love for the text don't calculate HIM into the equation. He prevents the real Church of Jesus Christ from falling into the error you live in now. Catholics don't have to worry about "Victorians" coming to teach us any new tricks.

As for "judging," we know better; since we have NO way of knowing; as you seem to THINK you know, who is repentant and who is not. We leave that to God.

We definitely know what the offenses are, against a just God; who nevertheless will forgive us when we come to Him and confess our sin.

The notorious homosexual, Oscar Wilde is one gay who was forgiven. He repented and was baptized at the hour of his death. Of course you won't care, since it's not written in your Bible. But we know this, all was forgiven in Wilde's confession. You aren't given to confessing your sins are you? Too bad.

Here I was, hoping to persuade at least one poor soul, some homosexual-- to confess he has sinned and offended God. You come along and think, seriously, that he's offended *ME* -- because I "judge" his actions? Nobody has offended me. OR YOU.

My worry is that by offending God, many gays will lose everlasting life. Not more, not less. And I'm not obsessed with the Holy Bible. YOU ARE.

Molly, You have a way with words
And dreadnaught flails about, running the classic passive-aggressive line. God doesn't hate gays; he just hates the act.

Mad as a hatter.

@ MellorSJ2
Thanks, darling!

@ dreadnaught

Father, forgive dreadnaught, for he knows not what he's saying.

@ dreadnaught
Please address the shellfish issue, since I've called for your forgiveness:

Do you eat shellfish? Ever? If so, do you repent? Do you ask for forgiveness from that abomination? And will you join me in picketing Red Lobster? Let's save some souls!

Molly
As a matter of fact, sweetheart, I have suffered for 23 years and counting. Our oldest daughter has Raynaud's Syndrome and Scleroderma. She is in constant pain and bears her cross and offers it up for people like you. She's happy to suffer if even one prodigal son or daughter returns to Christ. Is it difficult? You bet. But God loves you and there is no greater joy in heaven than when one lost sheep returns home.

Molly
I suggest picketing the local fish market.

Sorry to hear about your daughter
But don't you think it a little presumptuous of you to assert that "[she] bears her cross and offers it up for people like you." Have you asked her?

"She's happy to suffer if even one prodigal son or daughter returns to Christ." Can you show any causal connection between her suffering and the fate of a single soul? Does her suffering vary according to the number of souls she directly "saves."


truetolife,
I'm truly sorry that your daughter is suffering and you in turn. I'll think a good thought for both of you. I think suffering puts all of us at a crossroads. One can take the path of compassion or the path of bitterness. I urge you to choose compassion...for all people. Emulate Jesus. Ignore nasty old Paul and Leviticus, which is full of silliness, like not eating shrimp, and absolute horrors, like killing disobedient kids. If you believe that Jesus is the son of God, follow his life, his way. Love all. Live simply. Don't judge.

Mellor
Thanks for your thoughts about our daughter. Yes, of course I've asked her. However, she doesn't "save" any souls--only Jesus can do that! But, yes, I firmly believe that we can offer up our sufferings for others. I'm sure that is no surprise and you've heard it before. I'm not trying to upset you--but I've told you before that I continue to pray for you and you said something to the effect that I should go ahead, it won't change a thing. But, our 4th grandchild was baptized this morning and I specifically prayed for you again. I don't know if it makes any difference for you, but I just thought I'd throw it out there...have a nice day!

@ MellorSJ2
Have you ever had an alleged Christian answer the quandry about shellfish? About all the rules in Leviticus that no one wants to abide? I did hear one faint excuse about Leviticus having social laws, which no longer apply, and moral laws, which apply to...homosexuals! So, in other words, if you're straight, which I am, by the way, then all you have to do is...not be gay!

Of course, so many alleged Christians don't even know what's in the Bible. They just read the godhatesfags passages. And they go shopping. And drive right by homeless people. And vote for the torture party.

The.

Torture.

Party.

And they vote for torture in the name of Jesus.

Jesus weeps. And I weep with him.

Molly
Thank you very much! It's so nice to hear compassionate things when it comes to our daughter and all she goes through. But, you DO know that we all judge every single day of our lives. If we didn't make a good judgment just crossing the street--it could be disastrous. If we didn't take murderers off the streets it would put many more people in danger. That's a judgment call too. I DO NOT hate anyone. It is love of my neighbor that compels me to say certain things. Sometimes I say them nicer than at other times :(
Sorry. But, as a Christian, I AM my faith. There is no separating the things I do, the things I say and I don't mix up the OT with the New Testament either. Jesus came to do away with the notions that people had about God. I prayed for you too today :)

Alleged quandary
Yes, I have been proffered "answers."

Jesus, it is said, made a "new covenant" releasing the new xians (but not the jews) from _some_ of the laws in Leviticus. Of course, he didn't exactly make up a list.

Convenient, eh?

@ MellorSJ2
Yes, it is the convenience of Christianity that has me disbelieving alleged believers. I've met a few Christians (note: no "alleged") in my life. They were deeply loving and compassionate people. They did not judge. They only helped. They were committed to easing suffering. I have the greatest admiration for them.

@ molly
I think you're being a little disingenuous when you parse about judging. You know what is meant. The Bible is quite clear, again and again, about holding one's tongue. If you'd like, I can quote scripture. It is not your duty to judge. That is God's. It isn't even your duty to be certain that you know the mind of God. The Bible contradicts itself sufficiently to leave us all uncertain. And humble.

Oops.
That last message was for truetolife. Truetolife, what do you think of the passage about the mote and the log. It sounds like you see many motes in your neighbors' eyes. Is your eye log-free?

*And* they mind their own business
My best friend is a (no alleged) xian. A fine, honest man and a great friend.

Never once has he tried to convert me, judge me, do _anything_ except live his faith and his life. I admire him greatly.

The alleged xians we see here, though, want to pass laws to enforce (some of) the strictures of their faith on the rest of us, and they have another passive-aggressive line in their "warnings" about the "afterlife."

Nope. You're trying to convert me after I have said No. That is but a small crime compared to rest of it though.

Posts that pass in the night
Well... ether, anyway.

It seems we're saying much the same things.

This thread is dead now. Just the four of us... And I need to get going before all the damn "pilgrims" get out out on the streets again. At least the pope has finally gone back to Rome and traffic can return to normal.

I'll check in again in about 8 hrs....

Nice to meet you Molly.

@ MellorSJ2
Nice meeting you too.

Yep, a true Christian is a wonderful thing. They're rare. As the Bible says, you know them by their deeds. The Bible also says that only faith is required, but faith compels action. The Bible also says that true Christians are rare and that very few will reach Heaven. I'm not a Bible believer, but I do believe that Jesus was a very good man and worth emulating. It's a pity so few aspire to live his way, replicate his life, and follow his word. The world would be a better place. However, Budda would also do, as would many other prophets and Gods.

MellorSJ2 & Molly

Save your pity... you will need it all for yourself.

The point of my post was that 'liberals' are of the opinion that people are inter-changeable. Any body and do the work of any body else. 'Consvatives' disagree with that notion and believe that each one of us has unique abilities that qualify us for specific positions in society. For instance a man produces sperm. A man producing sperm within a female can produce a child. A man producing sperm within another man produces nothing except possibly a disease with the recipient. The 'liberal' thought is that the homosexual action had nothing to do with the disease since a man receiving sperm from a man is the same as a woman receiving sperm form a man.

Natually speaking, homosexuality is a deadend at best and probably a quick deadend if a disease is introduced.

Biblically speaking, homosexuality is an eternal death sentence to the practitioner.

Nothing you can say will change those facts

Birdman
What your bible says is no concern to me.

More to the point, it is of no concern to the state, which is the entity that offers specials rights and benefits to married couples. Please try to get this through your head.

As for this priceless line: "Natually speaking, homosexuality is a deadend at best" perhaps you might care to explain to us all how it is that gay people are still here after millenia... And almost all of us born straight parents!

But I reserve the best to last: "Nothing you can say will change those facts." Half of this is simple biology (man + woman = child etc). The rest is your opinion.

@ birdman
You sound like another Bible quoter who doesn't read the Bible. If you read the Bible, you'd understand that very few people will achieve salvation.

Very.

Few.

And if you walked around with open eyes, you'd see that nearly all alleged Christians ignore the Biblical mandates. Abomination is the same word in the Bible used to describe eating fish and homosexuality. And "homosexuality" wasn't even in the Bible until the Victorians. Don't believe me? Find a pre-Vic Bible and look up your beloved godhatesfags phrases. The word, "homosexuality," is absent. But back to common sinning, as defined by the Bible. Drive through a neighborhood of McMansions. On Sunday, witness how many of those residents attend church. It will likely be a good number. So, they embrace wealth and thereby refuse Jesus's way and life. And how many of them permit a pastor to judge homosexuals, thereby refusing Jesus's way, life, and words? You see, the fundies' obsession with homosexuality keeps them from embracing Jesus's way, life, and word. All the fundies have to do is stay straight and they're in. Except, they're not. Jesus told one story about a man going to Hell and that was a wealthy man. You have a computer, birdman. Therefore, you're wealthy. You vote Republican. You're concerned with wealth. Even your Republican concern with national safety is ludicrous if you're an alleged Christian. You should welcome death. Embrace it. Embracing death means you get to embrace Jesus. However, you probably rush to doctors to delay death and in the process, spend all sorts of money that could feed the hungry and there are hundreds of million of hungry people suffering right now.

And what do you do?

You fret about gay people.

Gay people.

Because you're allegedly concerned about their souls.

And yet, you behave, as if you have no concern whatsoever for your soul, with your judging, your hoarding, and your voting.


too stupid to see?


What a half-wit. It's a dead end because YOU'LL be in the ground without children. YOU are as good as extinct. By choice. So's your main squeeze of the moment. You all live on saliva for a while, might as well never have existed. --Just for the love of buggering. Wasteful and perverse.

-

MellorSJ2

"Half of this is simple biology (man + woman = child etc)."

And man + man = zero, zip, zilch, nada.

Simple biology.

Weird molly and her/his Bible


Already explained, Moll.

Your Bible is a lost cause. You have no clue how to understand it. Yet your posts akl reiterate,

The Bible says, The Bible says, The Bible says, The Bible says, The Bible says, The Bible says, The Bible says, The Bible says, The Bible says,

To you it says NOTHING.

The Mosaic Law is all over with the coming of Christ's New Covenant. Prohibitions in foods are Moses law; we are freed from those dietary laws. Peter was given the new law; see Acts 11 :7 to 10

Sins however, are not Mosaic prohibitions. They plainly are affronts to God's divine Will. You have been told directly; God hates the perverted man sleeping with another man. HOMOSEXUAL ACTS. Saint Paul tells us you have been made REPROBATE for not caring when God is offended. He won't give you grace to come out of your vice. (Rom 1 :28)

Never mind what I think. It's what God thinks we all have to mind. Unless you're already reprobates. I hope not; I hope you're just weird.

@ dreadnaught
"What a half-wit."

And you're a Christian?

You're an alleged Christian. Rather you're an alleged "christian."

Dreadnaught, let's talk straight woman to straight woman. Let's talk Biblical scholar to Biblical scholar. I'm assuming, since I don't comprehend the Bible, even though I attended one of the world's finest divinity schools, that you're the superior scholar. You must be. You, after all, comprehend the Bible and I don't. You know where God changed His mind and I don't. You've read the Aramaic text. No? Then the Greek text. No? Then surely the English text, in its entirety and various versions with contextual understanding. No? Oh, you've just had a pastor tell you that godhatesfags. Yes? So sad. So...tragic.

And you reveal your monstrous misunderstanding of the life that the Christ led in your name-calling and your glee that you get to cuddle with Jesus and just never all mind your gluttony, your greed, and your judging.

Again, Father forgive dreadnaught, for he knows not what he says.

As far as winning via procreation, my progeny don't guarantee my immortality. Rather, given that we're past the carrying capacity of the Earth and at peak oil and the quadrupling of the national debt under Bush, my children are headed for hard times. Maybe dying times. The last thing we need is more babies. Procreation is a selfish act. And my kids aren't even my offspring. In a biological sense, I'm merely the conduit for genetic traits of ancestors who are forever forgotten, just as I'll soon be forever forgotten. If you understand half of this, it must be hard for you to hear and I have all due compassion for you, for the fate that awaits you and me and our children.

Now, call me some more names in the name of Jesus, the Prince of Peace, who commanded that we treat others the way we want to be treated.

still makes the weirdest statements


Weird; Molly never stops. Out of her feverish mind come the dumbest words.

". . . since I don't comprehend the Bible, even though I attended one of the world's finest divinity schools,"

In your dreams it's a divinity school. It's a school of heretical doctrines. All of those pretend Bible schools are in rebellion against PETER. He's our shepherd; not your "world's finest" wordsmith's schools. Becoming a false minister, or "W O R D S M I T H is doing Satan's work; sifting the faithful into sects; and forgetting the teachings of Christ's holy apostles.

"S I F T I N G"-- Molly. See the words of Jesus to Peter: "Satan has desired you, that he might sift you as wheat." Your school is Wheaton; it's only the sifted wheat Jesus spoke of. Broken into 28,000 denominations; all against their shepherd the Pope. You study only to throw away the faith.

" . . . you're the superior scholar. You must be. You, after all, comprehend the Bible and I don't."

REPLY: --The Catholic Church teaches the faithful. In the Church is all our proper knowledge and teachings of Scripture; as the apostles gave them to us. Without the Church you become only the BLIND leading the blind; into the ditch. I was no scholar; I learned everything from Christ's holy Church. It was the Church YOUR ANCESTORS lived in.

.

the half-wit speaks:

Molly: The last thing we need is more babies. Procreation is a selfish act.

If you don't NEED babies, don't marry.

If you're so unselfish, why would you beg to get married as a homosexual? It's you're selfish need.

Your "names" are to guide others who might read this. To alert them about your weirdness and pride. Not to hurt you. Once you've been seen as a homosexual or lesbian, that is about the lowest name you can be called. (But you can someday repent.) Meanwhile, the half-wit speaks.


@ dreadnaught
Again and again, forgive him, Father, for he knows not what he says.

I've got to go, dearest dreadnaught. I hope that the Prince of Peace someday leads you to peace. Maybe love and peace displace your anger and loathing. And may you shed your wealth and thereby submit to God's will. I wish the same for the Vatican, with its hoard of treasure, much of which is pagan art and art created by homosexuals, such as the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, the Pieta, and the Last Supper. And may your pope shuck his Prada shoes and his flamboyant dress and follow Jesus's way, life, and words, living in poverty and service.

Peace.

Your devoted wit,

Molly

weird molly doesn't wish to communicate


Her lame cheap shots at the Catholic Church tell us she's plumb out of rationale.

If they actually were facts, of course; I'd have to concede to her weird analysis of the apostolic succession (which her "divinity school" can't claim.)

In fact, there are no Pradas; no personally collected "treasures" except what belong to all the WORLD (the Pope & bishops can't sell anything; it isn't their property.) And the homosexuals who worked such artistic wonders likely went to heaven.

They repented and died faithful to Christ as Catholics. The Church brings all souls to Jesus Christ. She's done it over 2,000 years. She even gave us the Bible that --

--Weird Molly treats as a fetish.

.

Weird attempt of Molly



She-he says: [The Pope's]

"flamboyant dress and follow Jesus's way, life, and words, living in poverty and service.

We Catholics know the Pope is serving all Christians daily; in many very positive ways. He is poor; since nothing you see him wearing, traveling in, living in, or taking anywhere are his possessions . it's all God's property; dedicated to the worship of His faithful. He obeys Christ's mandate; shepherding the flock of his Master. Far from being "flamboyant," he's humble and ingratiating to everybody; as could be seen during Youth Day services and ceremonies in Australia. He went there to BLESS young people who gathered to meet with him! as humble even in the presence of aborigines, who came to Sydney to greet him!

This, even though at age 82, he could be living in comfort, merely dictating letters to a secretary. His pastoral journey to Australia was a 20 hour flight. At 82 years old! He PRAYED aal the way, While he crossed two oceans as the SHEPHERD of God's people!

WE ARE SO GRATEFUL TO GOD, FOR POPE BENEDICT XVI !


The only thing we're grateful for...
dredadnaught, is that the pope has taken his chartered 747 and his entourage (all men, I might add) back to Rome.

Now if he would just take the 200,000 pilgrims he left behind with him, we'd all be happy.

Mad as a hatter
"He is poor; since nothing you see him wearing, traveling in, living in, or taking anywhere are his possessions ."

Tell you what, naught, try selling that to the IRS.

"he's humble and ingratiating to everybody; as could be seen during Youth Day services and ceremonies in Australia."

Sure. Obviously, you're not seeing same fireworks, road closures, letters to the editor (try http://www.smh.com.au), and general disgruntlement that I am.

"He went there to BLESS young people who gathered to meet with him! as humble even in the presence of aborigines, who came to Sydney to greet him!"

Aborigines, you twit, live in Sydney too. Especially the ones that are wheeled out to greet dignitaries.

"His pastoral journey to Australia was a 20 hour flight. At 82 years old!"

If he were seated in 52E surrounded by screaming children, you might have a point.

"He PRAYED aal the way, While he crossed two oceans as the SHEPHERD of God's people!"

And which two oceans would that be? How'd you know he prayed all the way? Were you there?

@ MellorSJ2
"even aboriginies" is a deeply disturbing phrase. It's soooo colonial, as in, "The Great White Father even deigned to talk to the little, black folks."

I wonder if dreadnaught is even aware of the whispers about the Great White Father and his young and comely aide?

I can't process that dreadnaught fancies a group of guys in fancy frocks who live in boyland, but hates homosexuals. And I am learning something from dreadnaught. I didn't know that there are still Catholics who believe that they're Jesus's extra-special Christians and that they're the only ones who get to cuddle with Jesus. Do you think dreadnaught realizes that some other sects feel that way about him, that he's Hell-bound? But since dreadnaught votes Republican, he's in the right church given that the Catholic church has also tortured people.

Say, since you've got that commonwealth thingy going in Oz, I just read that even the Brits have come out with a statement that they no longer trust America's assertions that it doesn't torture. And we're on the Canadian's list of countries that torture and their diplomats are urged to take all due precautions.

But, hey, hey, hey, let's not talk about torture. Let's talk about teh gays!!!!

a brood of vipers


Yes; this is the brood spoken of by John the Baptist. Filled with the fury and venom of the snake pit.

It's comforting to Molly Weirdo to insinuate holy men are typically given to secret vices. Makes her feel closer to Jesus.

Jesus, however was confronted too. He met Satan who quoted Bible verse just like the Weird lesbian. The weird Mellor has the hardest role. Playing a Pharisee, when his inclination is to have felattio at the soonest opportunity. Go on, foolator. Say bitter things about the Pope. Express your malevolence and envy. Give in to your rotten feelings about anybody virtuous. Eat your lonely heart out! Lol!

And he was comely too!
Almost made me want to watch the old fool as he pontificated, but the comely-to-ugly ratio was simply too low.

As you say re aborigines. My own opinion is that the Australians should refrain from these displays and work on what needs to be done so that aborigines can be the ones shaking hands and not their booties.

And as you say too re visiting the US. These days, people are scheduling conferences outside the US because it is so arduous to enter. Cheap though. As it can be when you go to Third World country.

And as you say regarding torture.

Sigh.

I do love it
when 'naught loses her cookies.

I can almost see the spittle from here.

@ MellorSJ2
Yep, we're becoming a third world country, with gated communities, torture, a disappearing middle class, monstrous debt, warlords, etc. Soon, America won't be able to afford perpetual war. Actually, we already can't afford it, for the invasion of Iraq has been funded by money borrowed from the Chinese. Like the Soviet Union, we'll fall because we loved too many weapons for too long.

It saddens me to read that fewer folks are coming here, but I can understand why you wouldn't. When you look at th list of countries that torture, like Libya, Iran, Sudan, and the U.S., we're in creepy company.

This is why the Right needs gays: to distract from what's been done to our Constitution and what's been done to America's middle class. However, I think many Americans are sick of hearing about gay people being to blame...for everything. The Right would like to blame gay people for high gas prices, but the fall of our dollar is largely due to an unfunded war and the consequent debt. That's a Republican consequence and no amount of neocon spinning can blame gay people, although they'll try.

Say, MellorSJ2, I recently spent a week with a Holocaust survivor and read some books and viewed some of the Nazi propoganda and the similarities between the right's assertions about gays and the Nazi's assertions about Jews are chilling. The Nazis said that Jews were dirty and disease ridden and wielded great power, even when they were being rounded up and shipped away.

I don't believe, "Never again."

I think too many people would be all too happy to fashion another Final Solution and they'd do so in the name of God.

You might be overreaching here
But only a little bit. Then again, the survivors heard many people say that before they were shipped off.

Seriously, I don't think there's a group powerful enough to pull it off. They're all here reinforcing their own lies. Moreover, their grasp on reality is so tenuous, I'm surprised they can make breakfast. And this November they'll be marginalized for a generation, even if McCain (who, as they will loudly tell you, is not one of them) wins. Similarly, the California Proposition in which they put so much store will not achieve want they want. Even if it fails, it is in conflict with other provisions of the California Constitution, and may even end up with the Supremes--which will much saner after a few Obama appointees (or even McCain for that matter.)

The only thing that worries me in this area is a xian lunatic as VP and McCain having a heart attack.

I am far more worried about our debt caused mostly by overspending on the part of individuals and governments. And a principal cause of that is an unfunded war. If you want overreach, this is it. On an imperial scale.

speaking of your mom, mellor


Is her spittle whitish, or blueish?

Bad if it's whiteish. White spittle means a deficiency of acid; you know-- Ph factor, Take her to the doctor.

Me? Only an old man, 70 going on 71. Cookies? My favorite cookie's Ginger Snaps.

How bout you Mellodie? Are Yew getting enough acid? Try a Ginger Snap. Try getting married to a smart woman. She'll give you smart children.

Take a chance; Yew mot lak it! (My best John Lennon bit.)

.

speaking of aborigines


Yeah. I feel for the aborigines.
My wife & I were in Australia some few years back. Stupendous palce. Excellent wine. Loved Sydney. We attended a concert in their fab opera house. Opera season had ended. Afterwards, thy gave us a suer fireworks display over the Circular Quay.

In Adelaide I got to meet some aborigines. LOVELY individuals, but yes. They've been mistreated a lot. I made friends with one. I thumped his chest as a friendly gesture. He said; "Don't hit me, I'm sick." It made me want to cry. He was panhandling. Not shy about it, either. He asked fror 10 dollars (aus) but all I had on me was $2.

I gave it to him. But I said; "If my horse wins, I'll look for you here, and give you that $10."

His eyes lighted-- "You own a RACEHORSE?" I answered, No; I just placed a bet for a late race at the betting shop.

"Oh."

My horse didn't get anything. I never saw them again.

But I treasure that memory of Australia. May God bless those sweet people!

.

@ MellorSJ2
I was thinking you're an Aussie, but you're in Alabama, correct?

I hope I'm overreaching. You see the right's appetite for blood in the torture, perpetual war (McCain's hundred years and more), and their language, which is laden with war metaphors. And, as you know, every few weeks, a gay person is killed in this country and that's okay with far too many folks. That's what you need for industrial killing: murder being okay with far too many folks. At sites like this, you'll hear assertions that gay people sleep with babies and animals and children and those lies are similar to the lies told by the Nazis. I know Godwin's Law and that it's bad form to compare anyone to Nazis and I think that's so. It's just my proximity to the Nazi thinking that has me thinking about nomenclatural congruency.

You sound like a swell guy, MellorSJ2. Smart. Sensible. Funny. Balanced. And...VIRTUOUS!

And yes, yes, dreadnaught, we know you're rich. I assumed that long ago. A compassionate friend once said that the problem with rich people isn't that they lack compassion, but that they lack understanding. That's a loving thing to assert and I think it's so. I once dated a rich man and one weekend, we went to a very big city and he spent a very big amount of money and everywhere we went, people seemed to love us. They didn't, of course. They only loved his money, but I could feel my self being seduced into a false sense of the world. I think that happens to rich people, which is why a true Christian must shuck money, as the Bible instructs, to comprehend. That way, Jesus won't have to say, "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."

Very odd, Weird Moll


Yeah. Odd. In my 70 years, I never heard a Bible say one word. Bibles don't "instruct." Christ sent apostles to instruct, and they established one Church; keeping His faithful. By the power of the Holy Spirit; she is the Catholic Church.

Oh; you never heard of Him? Only want a Bible, without the Advocate Jesus gave us in the Church? (No wonder.)

BTW; to be honest; I'm not a rich man. I'm married to a younger woman (20 years) who gets assignments all over. Her company sends her to give workshops. They pay her flight/hotel, etc, and I tag along. It's been marvelous.

We have spent weeks in London, all over Spain, in Paris & vicinity; in Rome, and lovely Florence. We went to Australia and she taught in Adelaide.

I had to pay for my flight. Hers & our hotels paid by her employer.

ROME was my favorite. We lodged in a hillside area called the Aventine. Not far from the Circo Massimo. I speak pretty good Italian. Great restaurants and so many CHURCHES!

But at home we have nothing luxurious; just nice. My wife's absolutely lovely! And, she's a devout Catholic just like me. She donates to Catholic charities, and our parish. We never forget the poor.

I hate to disappoint you, Molly. In my life GOD (Jesus is His divine Son) is ALL and forever HOLY. Then comes my darling wife. Then all my neighbors. EVERYBODY, DEAR! And I do not hate gays. I pray, always for their salvation. --Hope you won't object. Homosexuals need our prayers!

You sound lonely, dreadnaught,
given the amount of time you devote to this site. Soon, I'll be gone for good, but I expect, you post here, day after day. And it also sounds like you want us to think well of you, to admire you, and perhaps to envy you. You tell us your wife is 20 years ago. You tell us about all the places you've been, about the wines you've drunk and the places you've patronized. Yet, the evidence at hand, which is you trying to insert yourself into a conversation, suggests that you've no place to go and nothing to do. I wish you a good life and now go to your good wife. Be with her. Adore her.

I'm off to walk the kids to Dairy Queen! When I return, don't be here. Be with her.

drednaught

Subject: drednaught
That is SO wonderful that you were able to go to Rome! I would love to be able to go there someday....
I watched some of the coverage of the Holy Father's visit to Australia on EWTN. It is so heartening to see the "masses" of people who flock to see him. Especially the up and coming generation. We certainly do serve an awesome God! My husband and I have been "cradle" Catholics! I was the 6th child of 7 and so I had the advantage of celebrating all of the old Slovak and Bohemian traditions associated with our Slovak parish while I was growing up. Such great memories and I have tried to carry on some of the traditions with our family. God bless you and your wife! It is so nice to meet a fellow pilgrim along the journey!!!

@Molly
Nope. TownHall doen't let you 'live' anywhere but the fifty states, so I picked AL because it was at the top :)

I was born British, and I live there now because I have been looking after my parents. Well, it's only my mother now, so we have to come to my 'summer' place in Australia for a couple of months to get her out of the house.

But at heart I am an American. I chose that nationality because of its commitment to freedom, both fiscal and personal. Both are now lost. At the next election we may see a slowing of losses in the latter, but even greater losses in our pocketbooks.

It's very very sad.

@ MellorSJ2
Yep, America and many Americans are broke. Ther are countries, like Norway, where every baby is born into a national trust fund. In America, of course, every baby is born into debt. As you know, that debt has quadrupled (or more) under the Bush administration. I tell everybody that hard times are coming. They think the hard times are here, but these days will soon be remembered as the good old days. The debt must be paid, although the Federal Reserve's strategy seems to be inflation, which devalues the dollar, which reduces the debt. However, inflation is the unfairest tax, for it disproportionately affects poor and middle class people.

So, you're taking care of your mom. I'm not surprised. You truly are virtuous.


yes, truetolife


It's nothing short of marvelous.

Rome is a great city. The people are terrific and they live life to the hilt. Though there are around 300 churches, it doesn't make everybody a saint. But you do see many beautiful religious sights. Hundreds of devout souls all delighted to be there. Naturally many priests & nuns circulating everywhere. Especially in Vatican City. There we saw Saint Peter's basilica, with the Sistine Chapel close by and the art museums.

Those young men wearing the Swiss Guard regalia impress you as fantastic. The exterior is gorgeous; and interior hard to believe.

You really ought to go & see Rome for yourself. No matter what it costs, it'll prove the most wonderful experience you'll ever live. Save your money and definitely visit Rome.

We were warned there were dangers etc., especially pickpockets. But we rode the Metro, buses, trains; and never had a problem. One lady had her purse lifted in a church, by a boy. But he picked it up & ran, from where she had left it while walking off ! Hardly very careful.

My wife, OTOH, had a purse-snatcher rob her here in Northern Calif; at an AMTRAK stop!

Ironic that what didn't happen in Rome is a worse danger around Oakland. Go figure.

Regarding use of "Holy Father":
I know you guys don't like what the Bible says, beyond gays being an abomination, but the Bible says that we have one Father: God, the Father. No one else should be called father. Not even dear old Dad. So says the Bible.

And don't save your money to go and gaze at the gold in Rome. Give your money to the poor. And be quick about it. Do you think Jesus cares about the Vatican's gold? Or do you think Jesus cares about hungry, unshod children? Where would Jesus go? WWJD?

Bible says, Bible says!
Subject: Regarding use of "Holy Father":

"I know you guys don't like what the Bible says, beyond gays being an abomination, but the Bible says that we have one Father: God, the Father. No one else should be called father. Not even dear old Dad. So says the Bible."

REPLY:

Who cares what any old heretic thinks it says in the Bible? My Teachers are the holy apostles. You bought the gospel of MEN, not God. Jesus is God. The Pope is His VICAR; and he's our Holy Father. You go jump in the lake.

"And don't save your money to go and gaze at the gold in Rome. Give your money to the poor. And be quick about it. Do you think Jesus cares about the Vatican's gold? Or do you think Jesus cares about hungry, unshod children? Where would Jesus go? WWJD?"

He wouldn't ask YOU for anything; since you sold His Gospel out. Every wonderful thing you see in Rome today is there for the GLORY of GOD.

In Jerusalem, the great Temple was covered with a GOLDEN dome; and Jesus never objected. It was for the GLORY of His Father. We serve Him in the Catholic Church too.

We do NOT SKIMP on His everlasting glory. You sound like JUDAS, who complained when the woman got on her knees and anointed the feet of Jesus. Judas saw that as BAD! "The perfume could be sold, and that money given to the poor."

Jesus practically told him to SHUT HIS FACE.

When God needs advice from unfaithful people, He could ask YOU. But so far He hasn't.


drednaught
Good for you! I won't respond to Molly anymore--she/he/it's diatribes are boring. It's really great that she/he/it thinks it's funny, along with her atheist friend, but what do you expect from pea brains? They want everyone to be as miserable as they are.
Your description of Rome is fantastic!!! Sounds like you had a wonderful, spiritual time. Every cent my husband and I can muster is spent on trying to see our grandkids in Houston--it's so difficult to be so far away but our oldest daughter needs a warm climate (although that doesn't seem to be helping anymore either). They are on their way home right now and the lack of oxygen in the plane always is hard on her because of her poor circulation. She has an emergency infectious wound specialist appointment tomorrow because both her feet are so involved now with the scleroderma. She's on pain killers every 4 hours and yet, she NEVER complains. Please keep her in your prayers.