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Friday, October 27, 2006
Glen  Lavy :: Townhall.com Columnist
New Jersey Ruling Ignores Primary Rationale for Protecting Marriage
by Glen Lavy
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In handing "committed" same-sex couples the full range of benefits available to married couples, the New Jersey Supreme Court has not only invited the state legislature to redefine "marriage" as … well, pretty much anything – it has also shown a deplorable lack of concern for the future of its youngest citizens.

Those pressing for the legalization of same-sex marriage built a lot of their case on the notion that people in love have a right to get married, whatever their gender, and that the government has an obligation to protect and enforce that right.

In fact, the government has only one obligation, when it comes to marriage, and as recently held by three major courts – the New York Court of Appeals (in Hernandez v. Robles), the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 8th Circuit (in Nebraska’s Citizens for Equal Protection v. Bruning), and the Washington Supreme Court (in Andersen v. King County) – it's about what’s best for children.

In New York, the high court pitched responsibility for deciding the "marriage" question to the state legislature, but not before underscoring the validity of the belief that the only interest government has in the loving relationship between two individuals stems from the likelihood of that relationship producing children. We expect married couples to procreate – and in the result of that procreation lies the future of the state.

Clearly, the state has a vested interested in providing the best possible environment for these future citizens and tax-payers, and the New York judges – like those at the 8th Circuit and the Washington Supreme Court – were persuaded that the ideal arrangement for children is a stable, loving, two-parent, two-gender family.

It is entirely possible, the New York court said, that rational, unbigoted legislation, backed by "intuition," "experience," and "common sense," could find "that it is better, other things being equal, for children to grow up with both a mother and a father."

The 8th Circuit followed the same reasoning, finding no evidence of a federal right to same-sex "marriage" when the purpose "of traditional marriage laws (is) to encourage heterosexual couples to bear and raise children in committed marriage relationships."

That being the case, the court said, Nebraska’s laws "limiting the state-recognized institution of marriage to heterosexual couples are rationally related to legitimate state interests and therefore do not violate the Constitution of the United States."

Two weeks later, after more than a year of deliberations, Washington's high court came down on exactly the same track, declaring that the state's Defense of Marriage Act "is constitutional because the legislature was entitled to believe that limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples furthers procreation, essential to survival of the human race, and furthers the well-being of children by encouraging families where children are reared in homes headed by the children's biological parents. Allowing same-sex couples to marry does not, in the legislature's view, further these purposes."

Three major courts, all saying the same thing: the government's interest in marriage is tied inseparably to its interest in children. The primary reason for licensing marriage is to ensure the best possible environment for raising healthy children.

True, no study yet exists comparing children raised from birth to adulthood by two men or two women with those raised by their own biological parents. But we do have the clear, eloquent evidence of nature itself. If two dads were the ideal for raising a child … two dads would be able to produce a child. If two moms were the ideal … two moms would be able to impregnate each other.

Yes, heterosexual couples also adopt or artificially inseminate or use a surrogate parent. But those options are still, statistically, an aberration. It is the design of nature that children are entrusted to parents of opposite sexes. The mix has not only a decisive genetic impact on the child, but a profoundly psychological one, as well.

The jurists in these recent cases have wisely affirmed the obligation of the state to facilitate that natural impact by sanctioning marriage. But in New Jersey, those pushing the same-sex agenda have successfully argued that the state’s first obligation is to underwrite the romantic inclinations of its adults, rather than protect its children.

It is a perfectly politically-correct decision. But it is not one that those who truly care about children – and indeed, the same-sex couples themselves – can applaud.

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About The Author
Glen Lavy is a senior vice president and senior counsel for the Alliance Defense Fund (www.telladf.org).
 
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sour grapes
Just because the court unanimously came to their decision about New Jersey law is no reason to have such a case of sour grapes. Besides, just because 9 out of 10 people agree about something doesn't mean that the 1 person who disagrees is wrong.

Enough already
These pols are grasping at straws if they think it will save them. Talk about something else, already.

Enough Already
I wish these gay people would leave well enough alone and stop suing the government.

How much money are they costing us with all these lawsuits to legitimize their illicit relationships?

blasterboy
"Besides, just because 9 out of 10 people agree about something doesn't mean that the 1 person who disagrees is wrong."

Well that's certainly true. To get at why the 1 person is wrong, you have to look at their reasoning.

Hey Celt...
Why do you read these articles if they make you so mad. You have the power of choice. Use it! And this is just some friendly, stern advice from somebody that is tired of hearing your b!tchin!

This author is not grasping at straws, he is point out the other similar state court decisions found that the interest of children was sufficient reasoning for restrict marriage to 1 woman and 1 man. The same reasoning used to restrict polygamy, as a matter of fact.

While this may ruffle your feathers because of your personal lifestyle choices, but that doesn't make it "grasping at straws". This is a reasonable argument that a majority of Americans agree with.

Once the state gives equal rights to same-sex couples, the state is showing society that same-sex relationships are equal to traditional marriage relationships. While you may choose not to believe this, in countries that have made civil unions and "gay marriage" legal, traditional marriage has gone down and children out of wedlock has gone up. The most stable environment for children to be raised is a traditional marriage between a man and a woman. And the state has a vested interest in promoting the most stable relationship.

This doesn't mean that a gay couple might not make good parents. There are certainly examples of bad hetero parents and I am sure there are good gay parents. But the state has the obligation to promote the "most" stable and natural environment for children - which is traditional marriage.

The NJ Supreme Court said that they didn't find sufficient reasoning to allow hetero couples to have more rights than gay couples. Obviously their legal reasoning was not consistent with the other states and federal circuit court that dealt with the same issue.

What New Jersey ignored
was the voters! The court decided for all residents what they think is right concerning same sex unions. Voters should have been given a voice in this matter, but of course, they were not given the opportunity.

When?
jerubaal writes: Friday, October, 27, 2006 5:59 PM
Enough Already
I wish these gay people would leave well enough alone and stop suing the government.


Jerubaal

We will stop suing the government when petty, narrow-minded people like you, and pandering opportunistic politicians stop trying to deny equal rights to GLBT Citizens.

Jander wrote
"While you may choose not to believe this, in countries that have made civil unions and "gay marriage" legal, traditional marriage has gone down and children out of wedlock has gone up."

I believe you, but is it a cause and effect relationship? Or are the rise of gay marriage and the decline in traditional marriage both due to some other cause? If that's the case, banning gay marriage won't help, and we need to put our energy into finding the real cause.

gary47
What right that I have is denied to you? The right to marry a woman? You can do that too.

The right to think? We both have that right as well. You just need to exercise yours.

It is not society's fault
that you gay guys don't want to marry, procreate, and become fathers.

So we owe you nothing. You have the same rights we do; you just abstain from using them.

Society does not owe it to you to rename your abstention into consumption.

Seriously, You Guys are Whack
You're just like the timid guy who doesn't speak up and them claims his freedom of speech has been denied.

The slippery slope
Unquestionably, there's cause and effect with major social changes such as gay sexriage. And it is a very slippery slope. Although the government miseducation system, pornography, God haters, and the R rated entertainment world have aided its cause, the larger question is: Where does its effect end?

Polygamy?

A 35-year old man or woman marrying three 12-year old boys and girls without the need for parental consent? And, if parents refuse, the parents will be accused of a hate crime?

Book burnings of publications that speak of homosexuality in a negative way?

Churches and synagogues torn down if rumored that their holy books refer to sodomy as a sin?

A promotion at work denied because you support traditional marriages?

Traditional marriage banned?

Worse?

Behind the mask of the new pretty pics of two mothers and their child lies homosexual ideologues who want absolutely nothing less than limitless boundaries to their deviant lifestyle.

Slippery slope? Cause and effect? Indeed.



You guys are a kick....
jerubaal is dead-on correct, and pitbull is a funny fellow. I couldn't add a thing.

Instead of whining about Gays
why don't you people so committed to heterosexual people rearing their biological children get with the REAL program, which would be to (1) marry and (2) stay married, thus making some kind of example for your children that they would desire to grow up and follow?

The "norm" for children in today's society is a divorced woman with two children, married to her second husband who is being unfaithful to her with someone else's second wife. The number of "biological children reared by their biological parents" in the same household in a monogamous relationship is so vanishingly small that it cannot possibly be held up as an example to anybody. In fact, the example your children are following are the Hollyweird serial marry-cheat-divorce-marry-cheat-divorce model, with liberal doses of unwed parenthood, unknown fatherhood and paying others to do the actual dirty work day to day.

If you want to encourage the "traditional" form of marriage, I'd say you had better get with the program of making it (1) more visible and (2) more viable.

The Ship of Civilisation is sinking, the desks are awash and water is cascading down the stairs, and y'all are running around banging on doors and screaming "Are you having gay sex in there?"

AudiR10
Wow! You got any numbers to justify "Vanishingly small?" You've done the work, no doubt, on the misleading stats that 50% of marriages fail. They're misleading because many of those who marry twice, marry thrice. The meaningful stat would be how many FIRST marriages fail.

My personal theory is that you get what you pay for. We pay for people to have children out of wedlock. We're working on laws to make taxpayers pay more for daycare for those children and the children of families where both spouses work outside the home. We have eased the financial costs of divorce and pretty much eliminated any social costs. We provide government support in the form of Social Security and Medicare for those who don't have children to care for them in old age, while we are working on eliminating the sense that children ought to care for their elderly parents. What is my financial incentive to have kids if I can make somebody else's kids pay for my maintenance when I am old and sick?

So, surprise surprise! Taxpayers pay people to be improvident, selfish, licentious, and unproductive -- and that's what we get. Marriage is no longer considered a prudent and charitable act and an institution critical to the health and survival of a culture. Instead it's thought of a package of benefits to which people who are fond of one another ought to be entitled. As somebody better than I once said,"It was not so from the beginning."

Married for 18 yrs.
AudiR10,

Put a sock on it!! I have been married for 18 yrs, I know many people my age and older whom have been married for 20, 30, 40 and fifty yrs. plus. The only way marriage is to survive is to promote it. All this talk of gay rights and sex, sex, sex, is a sure fire way to offend marriage in it's natural state. Sex being taught to young children is a promotion of undisciplined and devalues human life. Children need discipline and morals and values, something soceity will not accept, if replaced by sexual gradification. Also there are many, many drugs being offered as way of decreasing the natural human feelings, thus imposing un-natrual desires. Humans need bounderies, self-discipine, respect for others, values and morals to be equipped to handle life. Life in its essence, A Man, A woman, they come together and become one, sharing their life, their bodies and creating life from generation to generation. How wiil children know this if it is not protected and promoted???

Nice
An entire article about how heterosexual couples get special treatment because they can have kids and will "provide the best possible environment" for them, yet narry a hint on how they will be affected if gays are also allowed to marry. Where is this "deplorable lack of concern for the future of its youngest citizens", as I see nothing that would even remotely affect John-Q-heterosexual-couple and their kids?

Gay's Lie to their children
Gays have a natural tendancy to lie to themselves and their children. As I see it a man and a woman, husband and wife, mother and father can tell their children honestly that they cared enough for each other to committ themselves and their lives to reflect their children, children they made out of that love for one another. When man and woman decide to marry and committ themselves to becoming one, one father, one mother with the interest and sincere love it takes to make the family, guarding their offspring and respecting it. Watching their children grow and becoming a symbol of that commitment. One father, one mother blessed with the fruits of that marriage from geneeration to generation. Family forever.

How many kings married kings
Is there a real need to teach children about a king and a king got married??? Thats exactly what their teaching kindergarden children today. Is this an attempt to normalize gay marriage??? Why what possible good comes out of that devaint move???? As I see it, it is an attempt to confuse and destroy the real meaning of marraige. What say you!!!!

JohnUnderhill
If most courts as well as people can understand it, I think you have a duty to find out what they're saying. We didn't point what's obvious to everyone else.

We have, though, over and over, explained this to you. You just ignore what the courts and us say. Willful ignorance does not warrant an answer from any but the ignorant.

pitbull
It doesn't even take a contract! They can take all their property as joint tenants with right of survivorship. There's no need even for an agreement with consideration - it's just the disposition of the property.

Joint tenancy with right of survivorship gives you a form that overrides a will or lack there of, just like marriage, and it gives you procedures for equal division of the property in the event of a breakup.

Don't even get me started on all the fun you could have with a revocable trust.

Mad Dawg
THANK YOU! Eighty percent of people who get married stay that way until death do they part.

Audir, your whining is like yelling at honor roll students for their failing grades.

Allowing gays to use the label
of marriage is like PETA referring to the slaughter of chickens for food as a "holocaust."

Words are supposed to mean things. To take the Holy Sacrament of marriage and apply it to abberent and unnatural behavior is a travesty.

And don't even start with the "born that way" nonsense.

Even if one does not believe in God, the process of natural selection proves the falsehood of that theory. If homosexuality is genetic, it begs the question, how could it have arisen in the first place. (For that matter, how could sexual reproduction have occurred at all, but that is another lesson).

You can't pass on genetic traits if you don't breed.

In all of the genetic experiments that have been conducted since Mendel, certain facts remain tried and true; No new information or genetic code is created from one generation to the next.
No one has ever observed a "beneficial" mutation arising from natural or experimental breeding. Mutations are generally due to a loss of genetic coding.

While my older brother was involved in the homosexual lifestyle (20 years, but now saved), one thing was pervasive. Every party, every get together with all his "gay" friends; 50 - 70% of the time was spent talking about sex. More and new ways of doing it. Saying as many derogatory things as possible about the "breeders."

None of the homosexual couples I met in that time span ever had monogamous relationships. You had a partner to share living expenses and ensure that there was somebody to get you off when you couldn't score at the bar.

The homosexuals can continue to demand that the rest of us aquiesce to the legitimacy of their perverted behavior by calling what they do "marriage." I don't care if SCOTUS rules tomorrow that the people have to recognize sodomy as marriage. I'll die first.

Just imagine what could happen if the Democrats regain the ability to put judges on the bench.

Minor details for gays and lesbians
In the U.S. thousands of employers have contributed more to supporting family life and hospital insurance married employees than for unmarried ones! This act of encouraging married men and women to have a more costly form of insurance is paid for by employers for a reason that is not based on a desire to discrimminate against single people be they gay, lesbian or just heterosexuals not yet married. The extra expense was originally undertaken to encourage married workers to stay with the company. The tradition continues and may fail when the Courts, not the Congress decides that in a PC environment, any collection of workers, who are not legally married heterosexuals, may join in a 'committed' association to be called by some non-heterosexual term for equivalence to marriage. Thus, any one of the group, working for an employer that offers family coverage life or hospital insurance would be obliged to pay the needed premiums to cover the additional expense whether the group newly qualified was made up of two same sex people or any number. This would, of course, apply fairly to heterosexual 'committed' groups belonging to a sex club, or whatever sexual orientation any and all such groups proclaim. Bingo, employers are forced to abandon group plans to avoid runaway costs.

So much for one of the practical considerations.
Try to keep track of who is in or out of the group for insurance purposes and what constitutes being a legal part of it only adds to the confusion.

But, more important than these pedestrian considerations are the moral implications for the entire nation. If acceptable sexuality relates only to the mind condition of individuals that must not be denied by a government that is afraid of denying a perceived civil right, then if we allow it to happen, we are voting for a nation that allows that marriage is not important and it should not be regulated or licensed at all.

Yes, a loud minority would accept this, although it would prefer to have a legal evidence that it can enjoy in any or all benefits encouraged for those who accept the role of procreation and raising their own children. Some gays and lesbians even want to raise their own adopted sons or daughters, probably to be allowed to experiment to find out if their sexual preference connect them to the adoptive parents, as long as it is their legal right to provide such training,even though that is not the case for heterosexual couples.

These details should make everyone stop and think!

Interesting tactic
1) Proclaim that the gay lifestyle will not affect (you bigoted straight people's) traditional marriage.

2) When marriage is affected, use those statistics to argue that marriage is declining and should therefore be changed from a formal union of a man and a woman for "you" to a meaningless benefit package for "us."

Once I figure out what "I" want changed I can do the same thing right? Declare that my change will not affect whatever it is I'm affecting, and then use that effect to justify my change!

Again, I don't see
why everyone's getting so riled up about this issue. It's rightfully a state issue to determine. If a state wants to make it legal for people to marry their pets, that's up to the state.

The Union then has the option of removing that state from being part of the union through forced secession, if it's so reprehensible to the rest of the country. Or amend the Constitution.

Jerubaal: ?
Did I understand your post correctly, Jer, or out of context?

"Eighty percent of people who get married stay that way until death do they part."

I thought the divorce rate was at around the 50% point.

I'm no expert, and I may have missed something, or my knowledge of the stats may be off.

When I was a child
As a child, I raised bunny rabbits. I used to sepeate the males from the females, because I did'nt want to have too many bunnies. Even as a child I was amazed at how hard that male rabbit would bite the wire cage trying desperatley to get to the female, man he was in a frenzy, and many times succedded. I concluded that it is the nature of male to get to female. It sickens me to see male trying desparatley to get to male. Unnatural and very abnormal.

re: BrianR
"It's rightfully a state issue to determine."

Who's the "state" here? A handful of judges? The legislature that has been ordered to create specific legislation by the judges or the will of the people who live in the state?

New Jersey "Marrriage" case.
The article points out that other courts have considered the societal and familial effects of marriage, whilew the New Jersey court did not.

Anyone who had read the case, which unfortunately does not appear to include either the author or any previous commenter, would know that this is because the New Jersey AG conceded these points.

What New Jersey did was to throw the case while going through the motions of defending the statute. This enables the politicians to say, "Oh well, the judge said, hyuk, hyuk." Big city administrations do this sort of thing all the time.

The court expressly mentions the deficiencies the stat's case in its opinion, throwing the hot potato right back to the politicians.


To BrianR
On the point about 80% versus 50%.

80% of FIRST time marriages last.

But if you homogenously mix in the statistics of all divorces, it averages out to 50%.

This is skewed results.

In order to get an accurate picture, all marriages and divorces should be categorized in the following way:

First and only marriage.
Divorced only once.
Divorced, but remarried the same spouse.
Serial divorces.

I've seen all these permutations.
In my circle of friends and family; I come from a broken home and am an orphan, but I married into a devout Christian family. My M & D in law will be married exclusively for 50 years next year. My two sisters-in-law to their original husbands for 30 and 26 years respectively. My wife and I celebrated our 20th this year.

No infidelity in any of these marriages, even though I came from a family where that had happened a lot.

Has the possibility of divorce raised it's ugly head? You betcha! But we came to our senses in the realization that divorce doesn't solve your problems, it just creates a whole new set of other problems.

Ralf
re: BrianR
"It's rightfully a state issue to determine."

Who's the "state" here? A handful of judges? The legislature that has been ordered to create specific legislation by the judges or the will of the people who live in the state?

EXACTLY!!! Will the voters of Massachusetts ever be allowed to state their convictions? I will probably be long gone before having an opportunity to vote on this important matter, one of the many thousands who leave this land of liberals every year!

My biggest concern on this matter is whether the Massachusetts state legislature will allow this matter to even be voted on by the upcoming constitutional convention...they let it ride through the last one...supposedly it will be allowed to come to a vote in the next session (after the elections so no one will have to answer to their constituents for their vote) Then we have to wait one more year - and one more vote - before it can even be put on the ballot for the voters to have their say! Such judiciary action should NEVER be accepted! Where is it written that judges can set law???

For those of you who are foaming
at the mouth with apoplexy at the thought of "gay marriage", I'll just put this out here again. I'm still married to my wife...who I married legally as a male. I'm a woman now, AND I'M STILL MARRIED TO HER!!!! HA! None of you can do a thing about it! We are remaining together to raise our son and are still best friends. Y'know, so many of you backbiting, sanctimonious hypocrites go screaming that you can't stand it when GLBT people talk about, well, anything at all. Like marriage, or adoption, or laws to protect our kids in school from bullies. Yet YOU keep shoving YOUR opinions IN OUR FACES, and act like we aren't supposed to respond. So actually, my marriage is none of your business...but you keep trying to make it your business. What a whiney bunch of pathetic non-entities.

On the marriage stats
That doesn't make sense to me. If 80% of first marriages last, but the overall rate of divorce is 50%, then of the 20% of first marriages that fail, they'd have to have a divorce rate of 250% to bring the overall average down to 50%. In other words, those 20% of failures would have to have an average of 2.5 failed marriages each subsequest to their first failed marriage. That's the math.

I don't buy that.

Ralf and Cape Conserv: different issue
That's the issue of judicial usurpation of power, which is indeed a huge problem everywhere in the country. It happens out here in Leftifornia all the time. We passed Prop 187, which curtailed public services for illegal aliens, by a whopping margin. Judges threw it out.

My earlier post was referring to some of the commenters who were talking about federalizing the issue.


I'll ask again
to Pitbull this time:

I believe you, but is it a cause and effect relationship? Or are the rise of gay marriage and the decline in traditional marriage both due to some other cause? If that's the case, banning gay marriage won't help, and we need to put our energy into finding the real cause.

Just citing statistics doesn't prove much.

SEXRIAGE
CDR Will writes:
Allowing gays to use the label
of marriage is like PETA referring to the slaughter of chickens for food as a "holocaust."

That's why we must call it what it is: SEXRIAGE. It cannot be dignified in any other way.

BrianR
I basically agree with your math. People who get divorced sometimes do it alot, bringing up the average. But only a small minority of people ever divorce.

I don't understand why it's hard to believe that a statistically small group has results that seem way out there - that's just the way stats work.

BrianR and Divorce Stats
http://www.christianitytoday.com/mp/7m2/7m2046.html

Barna's research may be the best recent attempt at finding the true divorce rate in America. His group surveyed 3,142 randomly selected adults and found that 24 percent of adults who have been married also have been divorced. The survey's margin of error is plus or minus 1 to 2 percent.

The Homosexual Agenda
Diefenbaker writes: Canada
Gay marriage has been legal in Canada for about a year and a half now. Can anybody show me how it has harmed Canadian society?

It's so much more than mere sexriage, Diefenbaker, (albeit an important link to the domination they seek). It's the entire ideological homosexual agenda. Here are quick examples about how this agenda has affected free speech of which we're so fond of on comment sections like these:

In Canada, Dr. Laura's comments about homosexuality have been stifled since she described them as abnormal and linked homosexuality to pedophilia. Focus on the Family has been warned their show will be yanked if they address how homosexuality hurts marriages, the devastation of AIDS, or that the homosexual agenda is widely hyped in schools (one of the primary causes for the growing homo movement.) Certainly Jerry Falwell can't talk about Sodom in his Christian sermons. Oh no! Not that!!!

Even today, it's reported that unionized Vancouver postal workers are refusing to deliver a pamphlet opposed to homosexuality.

Moving home, here's a contemporary story from Harrisonburg, Virginia, home of freedom loving libertarian James Madison University and Eastern Mennonite University. A Honduran male immigrant (legal) had a sign on his back car window supporting Virginia's traditional marriage amendment coming up for a vote in November. He was fired by the very "diverse" sensitive, international Cargill. He parked his car outside the corporate lot but it was still "in view."

Our days are limited to "talk" so openly like this unless we draw a line in the sand. Sexriage is the right battleground to do that since most Americans still agree that enough is enough on this incredible stretch of reality.




Quoting the first sentence...
..."In handing "committed" same-sex couples the full range of benefits available to married couples, the New Jersey Supreme Court has not only invited the state legislature to redefine "marriage" as … well, pretty much anything –" we can look at his very true statement about "REDEFINING MARRIAGE". This is important. Traditionally marriage was for the religious and was defined by God. When the state (individual states on an irregular basis) decided to usurp the religious aspects of marriage and require permission from the state to "Marry", they (the states" by default accepted the (Christian) definition of marriage which was the only definition prevalent in this country at the time. The long and the short of it is that marriage is indeed defined by statute in all fifty states. The courts have no constitutional power by either the U.S. Constitution or any state constitution to change that definition. They actually don't even have the power to tell the legislatures to redefine something that has been, defined by tradition for such a long period of time. There is no way that is acceptable to society for a court to suddenly decide that something that has for so long been defined is now wrong. That's what the courts did with the privacy thing in the early sixties when they suddenly discovered an inherent right to privacy that is nowhere stated in the Constitution and that led us down the road to abortion and most of the problems we have today -- including this one. I'm positive, but lacking the legal history to prove that there is a direct, traceable link between this problem and the original decision on "privacy.
Nuff said? Maybe way to much!

Pitbull:
I studied math at the University of Maryland, where I got my engineering degree.

That answer your question?

Lee
You mentioned the homosexual agenda. So if they have an agenda, what's their ultimate goal?

I can see it now...
It's the year 2016, and gay marriage has been an American institution for 5 years. A young girl of 10 happens to mention to her teacher that her daddies have been having sex with her for the past 5 years. An investigation reveals that the two men declared themselves to be homosexual and obtained a state sanctioned "marriage". They then, according to state law, were permitted to adopt a little girl. As it turns out, the men are pedophiles, but not homosexual. their objective all along was to gain exclusive possession of a young sex partner. In another story, NAMBLA, represented by the ACLU, has successfully sued NJ over its age of consent laws, seeking to have them eliminated entirely.

The UnStoppable Evil
JohnL1,

This is the unstopable evil that will prevail, if it is not nipped in the bud, Now. The sitution you posted, is clear evidence that no-one will care, no agencies to repot to, no morals or values to consider, lust will be the law of the land. It wounld'nt surpise me by then that people will be having sexual relation with animals in public and children will have no value, except for the sexual gradification of adults.

Lee - the Homosexual Agenda
The ultimate goal is the complete decriminalization of the homosexual lifestyle.

In Colorado recently, there were two propositions being considered (I don't know the result). One would have given rights to gay marriage in some form, be it marriage or civil unions. Another bills, which many Christian groups supported, would have streamlined the process for ANY two people to get certain rights, like hospital visitation, power of attorney for wills, etc. The homosexual groups did not like the second bill, even though it would have given them the ability to get most, if not all the benefits that they would have gotten with marriage. It was telling.

Why are they suing over every little thing that speaks out against their behavior? Why are Christians in Canada forced to keep silent about scripture that speaks out against Homosexuality? Why are professors getting fired for simply stating what they believe about Homosexuality? It's easy, the "homosexual agenda" wants to criminalize those thoughts and views as "hate speech" so that they can accomplish their goal of complete and utter decriminalization of their behavior.

It used to be said that what two people do in the privacy of their own home is their own business. However, when they want to bring those activities out into the open by declaring their marriages, but forcing opposition to be silent, it's not longer just their business.

gay divorce
Of course, if gay marriage is made law, then gays will have equal access to adoptions, and the children of lesbian spouses will be automatically legal chidren of both.

So what will happen at the time of divorce? Will custody go to the one with less testosterone? Will the other have to pay through the nose?

Or will such policies only hold for heterosexual couples?

Truth be told
When man learns a distaste for woman, Man sunddenly becomes attractive, thus showing his manly powers, and learn to love himself. In this great love for himself, he convinces himself and another man, that they are made for each other. Then starts they very difficult task of going trough the masses of men to discover their very special interest. How can they make their deviant interest seem real? seem plauseable? and sane? Then the disease strikes, but man knows best, they can lick this minor affliction, because after all this is just a minor setback, so they learn to live with the sickness, it becomes them, overtaking their very bodies and minds. Convinced they can conqueer their disabilities. For Man, father knows best and they are eqquiped to teach their offspring. Woman is convinced that these men deserve each other and decide What's Good For The Goose Is Good For The Gander.

Where do I start on your logic errors?
Pitbull writes: well - correct me if I am wrong but a civil contract can afford anyone the same rights as married people with concerns for money - property as well as POA and DNRs in hospitals - the only issue left is the tax breaks / or in the case of marriage the tax penalties given to heterosexual couples - so don't tell us that we are stamping all over your rights -

what about my RIGHT to free speech to publicly declare that homosexuality is revolting and wrong?
--------------
Gee pitbull - how did a discussion about legal rights/protections granted by the government sink to a claim that equal rights/rites for Gays and Lesbians deprives you of the 1st amendment right to complain about something that doesn't harm or effect you?

The paperwork you so gallantly suggest I use to protect my partner and myself is only as good as the lawyer who prepares it. AND IT costs a hell of a lot of money to try and get the protections you can get for less than a hundred dollars down at the court house.

And the civil contract doesn't provide anyof the protections that you so selfishly arrogate to hetero self.

There are plenty of cases where same-sex couples have followed your advice and then when one dies, the family swoops in like carrion-picking vultures and tries (sometimes succeeds) in stealing everything from the bereaved, in violation of the clear will of the deceased. All because of narrow-minded pettyness and disapproval of the chosen mate of the departed brother/sister or son/daughter.

Civil marriage is the easy way to provide all these benefits and protections to couples, because there is a clear set of rules. Male/female Gender pairing is traditional, but not requried, anymore than it is required that women change their name and sign over all their property to their husband. Expanding marriage to include male-male or female-female couples is completely rational, given the change in social attitudes toward GLBT citizens in places where tolerance is found

There are plenty of licenses to go around, and two men or two women committing and wanting the legal protections that go with that piece of paper has no impact on heterosexuals.

Until you can show me clear evidence (i won't even demand proof) that same-gender civil marriage harms anyone, why don't you admit this is all about kicking around the last remaining minority group for which it is still somewhat acceptable to despise?

Logic errors, continued
Rereading the original article, I am struck at how shoddy Lavy's arguments are. If marriage is about the children, then a marriage license should be conditional until children are born. We wouldn't allow prisoners on death row, without conjugal rights, to wed. We wouldn't allow divorce.

There may be valid legal arguments that the provision of equal rights/rites for same-sex couples should be a political decision, not a judicial one. This depends on whether the question demands rational scrutiny or strict scrutiny.

But the shrill, anti-Gay hollering and vain attempts to justify the status quo on tradition instead of law is absurd and offensive.

If being Gay or Lesbian is so awful, then why aren't you demanding re-cxriminalization and jail? Oh, wait, the Texas GOP is calling for that. Admit it, this is not about protecting marriage - it is pure and simple an attempt to put down a minority that you despise. NOt an admirable attitude on the part of a society that prides itself on protecting minorities from the tyranny of the majority.

One last comment before I start work: The quotes around the word "committed" are entirely gratuitous. Adultery is wrong, but committment is not a legal or social requirement for marriage if you look at how many people don't even pretend to honor marriage vows. If committment is part of your definition of marriage, then get the legislature to recriminalize adultery, and make it a grounds for divorce.

Reflect on Marriage
Marriage is every sense of the word, is the conecting of two to become one, to come together in marriage, the most basic form of the meaning. This is how all human life flourihes, and yes it is the meaning of marriage. When Man and Woman, One man and one woman enter marriage they become a home of the natural family. They build together bonds, create life and family. This insitution becomes and is the home of the family, ready for home improvements and life. This is the most personal and private affair a marriage can offer. Reserved for the two whom declare no others invade, come between or destroy what they themselves have built. Responsibility and rights protected by those two spefic people. Created through the bonding of those two, in love, responsibility to each other and their offspring. Gays and deviants do not have that natural ability and never will. God made man and woman to come together and be as one, to be friutful and mulitply. To create life and to live a life in his image. Mother and fathers, dedicated to their protecting their blood of their lifelines and family, what more basic meaning can marriage carry. It is not a circus, or a freakshow. It is a Matter of Life. Created together from one generation to another.

Divorce rates
Divorce rates and marriage rates are based upon population. Here is the CDC link: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/divorce.htm. For 2005 (preliminary report) the marriage rate was 7.5 per 1000 residents and the divorce rate was 3.6 per 1000 residents (approximately and not all government jurisdictions report the relevant statistics). A rough estimate says that the divorce rate is 45% of the marriage rate. This is a far cry from the misreported 50% of marriages end in divorce. Census bureau statistics estimate that about 75% of all marriages end with the death of a spouse, and that a significant fraction of divorced people remarry.

Glen says:
“Clearly, the state has a vested interested in providing the best possible environment for these future citizens and tax-payers, and the New York judges – like those at the 8th Circuit and the Washington Supreme Court – were persuaded that the ideal arrangement for children is a stable, loving, two-parent, two-gender family.”

If the issue of “gay marriage” is really all about the children as Glen claims, then why don’t any states besides Utah make a preference for married couples in adoption law? While many people who marry choose not to have children, adoption is about nothing but the child's best interests. Since most states don't feel that marriage is necessary to raise the children that are already here, how can they apply a different standard to children that are yet to be?
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