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Thursday, January 29, 2009
George Will :: Townhall.com Columnist
When on Thin Ice, Move Quickly
by George Will
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Was the Copenhagen Global Warming Summit Walk-Out a Win for the U.S.?


WASHINGTON -- Summoned to remove a fish bone agonizingly stuck in a rich man's throat, British surgeon Joseph Lister did so. When the grateful patient asked the charge for this service, Lister replied: "Suppose we settle for half of what you would be willing to give me if the bone were still lodged in your throat." The point -- that the price one will pay depends on the urgency of the purchase -- is pertinent to the president's "stimulus" proposal.

Frightened people are receptive to his pleas for large and quick action: Just do it -- we'll count the cost later. As Emerson said, when skating on thin ice, safety lies in speed, and the administration's confidence in what it is doing should be -- this is not its fault -- thin.

Economic policymaking in turbulent times is a science of single instances, meaning no science at all. When economic theories matter most -- when the economy is in uncharted waters -- all theories are necessarily untested. Hence attempts to derive prescriptions from the New Deal are somewhat surreal.

Furthermore, our language is bewitching our intelligence. Long ago -- a year ago -- Russell Roberts, economics professor at George Mason University, deplored terms that suggest that economics is a science akin to medicine. With a "stimulus," of a sort that makes the legs of a dead frog twitch, the government will "inject" money as a doctor gives a blood transfusion. Or as a life-reviving "jolt" from a defibrillator.

Sensible people are queasy about throwing trillions of dollars at barely understood problems on the basis of untested theories. For Republicans, the question is: What are the duties of the opposition at a moment like this? The answer has three components, beginning with elementary political arithmetic:

Having received near 53 percent of the popular vote -- better than Ronald Reagan's 50.7 percent in 1980 -- Barack Obama won 100 percent of the presidency, and almost that much of the nation's leadership expectations now that the public, which really should diversify its investments, invests such extravagant hopes in presidents. To govern is to choose, always on the basis of imperfect information, and the president may never have more public support than he has now. He deserves some deference. Some.

Second, congressional Democrats have turned the 647-page stimulus legislation into an excuse for something that never needs an excuse -- an exercise in wretched excess. They have forfeited some of the president's claim to deference.

The opposition should oppose mere opportunism, which comes in two forms. One is presenting pet projects hitherto considered unworthy of funding, as suddenly meritorious because somehow stimulative. The other attaches major and nongermane policy changes to the stimulus legislation, counting on the need for speed to allow them to escape appropriate scrutiny. For example:

The stimulus legislation would create a council for Comparative Effectiveness Research. This is about medicine but not about healing the economy. The CER would identify (this is language from the draft report on the legislation) medical "items, procedures, and interventions" that it deems insufficiently effective or excessively expensive. They "will no longer be prescribed" by federal health programs. The next secretary of health and human services, Tom Daschle, has advocated a "Federal Health Board" similar to the CER, whose recommendations "would have teeth": Congress could restrict the tax exclusion for private health insurance to "insurance that complies with the Board's recommendation." The CER, which would dramatically advance government control -- and rationing -- of health care, should be thoroughly debated, not stealthily created in the name of "stimulus."

The opposition's third duty is to assert inconvenient truths, one of which is that the truth shall make you modest. There never is a moment when an open society that wants to remain such does not need the wisdom of Friedrich Hayek, the Nobel Prize-winning economist who said: "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design." So the deference accorded this president should be proportional to his willingness to acknowledge that neither he nor anyone else can know whether the stimulus will work.

And from the quantity of deference owed to him, Republicans should subtract the sum of the opportunism of congressional Democrats. If Republicans conclude that the truly stimulative portion of the legislation is less than half the size of the portion composed of banal and brazen opportunism, and irrelevant but consequential policies surreptitiously pursued, they should oppose it.

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About The Author
George F. Will is a 1976 Pulitzer Prize winner whose columns are syndicated in more than 400 magazines and newspapers worldwide.
 
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Tax reduction bears no interest.
We will owe China three hundred billion in interest because the money is borrowed. We would be better off with tax reductions and print some more dilution. I never saw a government Democrat or an economist that knew anything about earning money and the business of business.

PresidentialBalls.com

if Obama ends up worse than Bush
We will be in real trouble. Unfortunately, I think that is possible. To date, Bush made probably the two most costly policy errors in American history. (1) The give-away to big pharma with the medicare drug plan (which unlike other govt plans such as the VA did not allow negotiation to reduce drug prices. (2) The Iraq war -- which Bush fired Lawrence Lindsey for saying that it might cost as much as $100,000,000,000 -- when in fact we are now at $2,000,000,000,000 -- Oh yeah, I forgot Bin Laden does not matter. Perhaps I am un-Christian for mentioning this because W did get the go-ahead to invade Iraq from God -- who apparently had a big problem with the Christian community in Iraq.

"uncharted waters"
So, if I've got this right, Congressional Dems are 'spinning' their pork-barrels as being, in fact, 'stimulation' and the Congressional Reps are being called upon here to oppose 'stimulation' in direct proportion to the amount of pork in motion. And, unless & until Obama admits he's a dunce when it comes to all things economic -- as is everyone, apparently, except Lister & Emerson -- then the Congressional Reps should get out their calculators and subtract 'deference' from Obama equal to the speed of the spinning pork barrels!

Got it! Sounds like spot-on politics & economics to me. Not to mention a plot for a disaster flick.

Has anyone read the actual bill?
This is the house side of the stimulus bill. A must read for those who think they can comment with any degree of certainty on this article or any other stimulus column.

It is scary, the author understates many points.It is a must read for those who wish to be precisely informed.

http://appropriations.house.gov/pdf/RecoveryBill01-15-09.pd f

When the cure is worse than the illness
I agree with you that medical analogies have been overused in discussing the current economic problems. Having said that, I would like to give it a try. A terminally ill patient is told that conventional treatments are not working. Desperate, afraid, and hopeless, he is vulnerable to exploitation, and falls for the secret "cures" and "alternative" treatments.

Our government has given us the diagnosis that our economy is severely ill and unless we immediately pass the "stimulus" plan, it will get much worse and it may never recover. Face with this news, the public becomes afraid, desperate, and hopeless. It becomes vulnerable to charlatans selling fake cures for the economy like the House stimulus plan.

A problem with economics is that it assumes people are rational. Most people in government are irrational. The "stimulus" plan shows this.

Sunken cost shows how real behavior does not always match economic behavior. A rational person would not consider sunk costs when making a decision. In actuality, people often do. Look at TARP and the current "stimulus" plan.

The Dems, Obama and the biggest
most bloated government spending orgy in American history is being foisted on the American people as "stimulus".

Hmmmmm.....

I guess maybe you CAN accurately call it "stimulus" with a straight face.

New Age cures
One can only assume from the behaviour of the US Congress that they, and they alone are aware of the new cure for alcoholism: give the "victim" the keys to the liquor store.
Right.

Marxism has been elevated in America 1

The overwhelming majority of, once, traditional Democrats have little or no knowledge of the philosophies of the people they have been duped into unleashing upon America and it's free-market system. Whipped up in a frenzy of hatred for any and all moral underpinnings of our society, they were tricked under the slogan of "Change" to unwittingly elect a Marxist administration in the purest sense of the word.

Our liberal arts colleges and universities, aided by such individuals as William Ayers, Bernadine Dohrn and others of their ilk, have been indoctrinating our sons and daughters into policies which constantly bombard them with the notion of the failure to attain success in a capitalist society, such as ours, as to have nothing to do with the individual's poor choices and failure to avail his or herself of the opportunities that freedom and free-market capitalism only makes possible; but that the free-market competitive system of governance, itself, is structured in such a way as to cheat them of the lifestyle to which they are entitled.

This entitlement mentality has been carefully nurtured and tested, first with the black community over the past 40+ years, and has proven to be effective in coercing an entire segment of the population [black people] to accept this notion of themselves as victims of a structural barrier to their ever having a chance to become unghettoized under their own volition and without the largess of the Democrat Party system of a social welfare state.



Marxism has been elevated in America 2

Building upon the success of this experiment in population control and political power, the Democrats took it to the next level in 2007-2008 by elevating what they knew was a community organizer schooled in the Marxist social philosophy of Conflict Theory, to unleash their goal of the destruction of capitalism in the U.S. and to insure the ascension of a Democrat-run socialist-collectivist government-as-god type of new world order.

Sound far-fetched?

If it does, it was meant to. That is why Barack Obama's origins in Marxist social indoctrination was carefully hidden with the collusion of the Democrat-elite MSM throughout the entire election cycle.

Marxism has been elevated in America 3

I am currently working as a Senior at a university in downstate Illinois seeking a BSW in Social Work.

One of the textbooks we are studying, "Human Behavior and the Social Environment, Macro Level, by Katherine van Wormer, Fred H. Besthorn, and Thomas Keefe (2007), in describing the "highly-regarded" social work theory of "Conflict" [of which BHO is obviously an adherent] the authors state:

"Conflict theorists Piven and Cloward (1993) utilized the functionalist analysis method borrowed from Merton (1957) to enhance our understanding of how the social welfare system serves as a societal device for "regulating the poor" in the interest of capitalism. The latent function of social services, from this perspective, thus becomes to preserve the establishment. Piven and Cloward's basic premise, based on their review of social change throughout U.S. history, was that "relief arrangements are initiated or expanded during outbreaks of civil disorder produced by mass unemployment and are then abolished or contracted when political stability is restored" (p.xv). In other words, the elites in society can be counted on to provide only enough aid, stigmatized at that, to prevent mass disorder and regulate labor. (Despite their use of functional analysis, Piven and Cloward's perspectives are far more closely aligned ideologically with Marxism than with Parson's funtionalist writings.)"

"Payne (2005) refers to conflict theory as radical and socialist-collectivist. Feminist, empowerment, and antioppressive perspectives are included under the rubric of radical, as well as the structuralist, approaches. We discuss the structuralist approach here because it places a strong emphasis on economic and social equality among people."

Marxism has been elevated in America 4

"These structuralist approaches, so called because the source of social problems is located in the social structure rather than in the individual, were inspired by the radical thinking of the 1970s, but their influence waned, as Payne speculates, with the collapse of communism in the 1980s. Along with the neoconservatism of modern times and the concordant erosion of the welfare state, there is a renewed interest within social work in effecting social change."

"Structural social work is associated today with and best articulated through the writings of Canadian social work theorist Bob Mullaly...Much like his predecessors, Mullaly (1997), in his book "Structural Social Work," espouses a conflict-oriented view of society and recognizes that one's circumstances and difficulties are connected to one's economic and social position in society (Lundy, 2005). "Structural Social Work" is described by Payne as the major statement of Marxist social work."

"Mullaly's (1997, 2002) vision of social work practice is that it must be anticapitalist. If as social workers we do nothing to bring about progressive radical change, we fail the people we serve; we become part of the problem instead of the solution."
______________________________________________

This should give you a better understanding of what "progressive" liberals in today's Socialist-Democrat Party, under an Obama administration, is trying to implement in the United States as we speak.

You see, under their adherence to these types of theories [Marxist to their core] they have as their belief, that capitalism is bad, and Marxism is the solution.

There, fortunately, are other theories being taught which are just the opposite, but this is what is being bought into by the Democrats in our society who proudly define themselves these days as "progressives."

Marxism 101--Obama style.

OncealwaysaMarine
You paint a disturbing picture of modern college "education". The whole structure of welfare is a parasite sucking the blood of worker bees. Vaguely justifiable if the recipients truly benefitted, but only a small per cent do. I have always favored helping those that need a helping hand by providing a last resort employer. those who are in dire straits merely report to the welfare office. Rather than spending months "qualifying" they are immediately employed at some useful task, such as cleaning the streets, razing abandoned public housing or reporting to Habitat for Humanity sites to help the unpaid volunteers. Teachers for schooling and baby sitters could be selected from those capable. Meals would be provided. There wopuld be no such thing as unemployment, welfare double dippers, checks sent to a "qualifying" address. This practice by itself produces fraud and waste equivalent to about half of the money aimed at recipients. The last amount i heard was that it now costs HEW $2.87 to give away a dollar. In the sixties, it was about a dollar. So much for progress. It costs the Savation Army about 20 cents. The biggest benefit is that people on welfare would be educated in showing up, in comparing what they were doing with other jobs and other pay. However fringe, they would be part of the economy.

Cloward Piven
Even ignoring the fact the federal government itself was the primary cause of the economic meltdown with its mandate of subsidized housing, (see under financial crisis on http://billlong.blogtownhall.com) I don't think that we can ignore the fact that the timing of the crisis was very possible purposeful.

Yuri Bezmenov, in a 1985 interview on the subverting of a culture, said that when the time was right for a Marxist takeover, a crisis would be manufactured.

David Horowitz summarizes the Cloward Piven strategy as:

"The strategy of forcing political change through orchestrated crisis. The 'Cloward-Piven Strategy' seeks to hasten the fall of capitalism by overloading the government bureaucracy with a flood of impossible demands, thus pushing society into crisis and economic collapse."

Andy Martin traced Obama's relationship with William Ayers back to 1987 and concluded that "William Ayers has been the mastermind behind Barack Obama's rise to power in Chicago", and that "It can be said without fear of contradiction, a vote for Barack Obama is in reality a vote to put William Ayers in de facto control of the U. S government."

Obama knows what he's doing. So does the radical leftist government that we've elected. Either that or God has given us the leaders we deserve. He said when Israel turned against Him:

"I will make boys their leaders, and toddlers their rulers. People will oppress each other - man against man, neighbor against neighbor. Young people will insult their elders, and vulgar people will sneer at the honorable."(Isaiah 3:4-5).

Does that sound familiar? Do we have leaders without wisdom? Do the vulgar sneer at the honorable? What is our relationship, as a nation, with God?

Pistol
Yes it is sad that what they teach now is that in order to "empower" people, you must first destroy the structure of a government which puts the responsibility on people to empower themselves rather than "spreading the wealth" of someone else's hard-earned money.

Sadly, the young people going into the Social Work programs of our universities don't have enough actual life experience to see the whole picture and are easily indoctrinated into merely viewing those they seek to help as charity cases, and are ill-equipped emotionally to develop true empathic understanding of the need to encourage clients to adopt a "strengths perspective" in solving their problems.

Rather, many of the younger people entering into the "helping profession" are confusing empathy with sympathy, and are being led to believe that the only way to help someone is to steer them in the direction of the next handout or welfare program.

Sad.

But be encouraged, more and more there are people like myself, Conservatives, who are entering the field with the belief that we can help people by encouraging them to explore their own inner strengths and God-given potential for engaging in a society in which the limits on their potential for success can best be lifted with the kind of help that we, as counselors, can provide that aids them in realizing the strengths they possess within themselves, and the most productive ways in which they can unleash them.

This is the mission I have chosen for myself. There are others like me.

DAMN THE TORPEDOS! Full Speed Ahead!
So sayeth Captain Barack on the O-tanic.

Media is the Culprit
We live in an upside-down world.

The advent of an Obama presidency and Dem trifecta (which started to look likely 18 months ago) CAUSED the economic downturn and the "poor climate" for confidence, spending, and investments. Now, the Dems act like they are needed to fix it. Free pass from the media.

Obama ran on tax cuts. Now, no talk of tax cuts. Free pass from the media.

Obama ran on the "end of pork" and a line-by-line review of budget waste. Now, we have the most bloated spending proposal known to man. Free pass from the media.

Obama said we needed governmental transparency. Now, we have a Dem "wish list" being bootlegged inside of a non-stimulating "stimulus package". Free pass from the media.

Liar, liar, pants on fire.

To think that we're barely out of his first week. God help us.

Media is the Culprit
We live in an upside-down world.

The advent of an Obama presidency and Dem trifecta (which started to look likely 18 months ago) CAUSED the economic downturn and the "poor climate" for confidence, spending, and investments. Now, the Dems act like they are needed to fix it. Free pass from the media.

Obama ran on tax cuts. Now, no talk of tax cuts. Free pass from the media.

Obama ran on the "end of pork" and a line-by-line review of budget waste. Now, we have the most bloated spending proposal known to man. Free pass from the media.

Obama said we needed governmental transparency. Now, we have a Dem "wish list" being bootlegged inside of a non-stimulating "stimulus package". Free pass from the media.

Liar, liar, pants on fire.

To think that we're barely out of his first week. God help us.

stimulus
Sure nobody knows if the stimulus would work. We can then do nothing. Obama gets the same answers we have been getting but Krugman insists that it will work. So you decide.
I think (and I don't know either for sure) that SBS's toxic assets destroyed the dollar. Without confidence in assets banks will not resume lending. We need to scrap dollar and issue new currency based on gold. Simply we don't have $15 trillion to replace fake assets and the economy cannot function without a sound currency. Whom to blame: Bush/Paulson. But so what? Matthew

Simple Reason for Our Economic Problems
It is simple macro-economics.

The advent of an Obama presidency and Democrat trifecta (which started to look likely 18 months ago) CAUSED the economic downturn and the "poor climate" for confidence, spending, and investments.

Just prior to that, the Dow was at an all-time high, unemployment was ultra-low, interest rates were low, and inflation was in check. Most importantly, the housing market, which constitutes most people's largest investment (and nest-egg for their future), was at an all-time high.

A movement to a higher proportion of socialistic philosophy does not provide a fertile "backdrop" for a robust economy. Until Obama is gone, get used to the situation we are in because there will not be a return. Hopefully, irreparable harm will not be done in the interim.

People can over-analyze this all they want, but it really is that simple.

Deserves some deference? Give me a break
Obama deserves no deference--not now, not ever. He is leading us (a rhetorical "we", not me) down a very dangerous path.

Mr. Will needs to toughen his position and his rhetoric or he will become quickly irrelevant to the growing conservative cause.

It's true!
What is the difference between an Economist and a Meteorologist (Weather Man)? Answer; the Meteorologist is right more often.

Why does anyone care what they say. Put 100 economists in a room and you will get 100 different predictions.

If you want to know if Obama's spending plan will work, ask a weather man, it will save you money and have the exact same accuracy.

Pistol,
Excellent comment. If we could only get some common sense into our leaders we might actually be able to save this country.

Unabashedly, I HAVE To Say...
I ABSOLUTELY HATE THE LAWMAKERS THAT VOTED FOR THIS BILL.

And, my children and, one-day, grandchildren will say the same f'ing thing about this cr@p sandwich.


I guess that all of us taxpayers need to follow the lead of our new Treasury Secretary and make "honest mistakes" when it comes to tax time.

a week of debate would have been helpful
I suspect the Democrat leadership in the House is engaging in a little "payback" over how it was treated by the GOP leadership back when hacks such as Tom Delay were in power.

And the Democrats may be acting just as foolishly.

They should have permitted the GOP to submit amendments to the stimulus package.

Debate and vote on the amendments. Vote them down, but at least permit the debate.

A few days, even a week, of debate would have demonstrated some good will.

I don't think the Democrat leadership acquited itself particularly well here.

It needs to rise above the shenanigans existing when the Tom Delays were in power.

Used Car Salesman aren't so devious
They are pulling a high pressured sales pitch on the public, the old, you better hurry, I've got someone else interested, etc.

They are hurrying because they are sensing if this bill has a sensible debate, conmensurate with the dollar amout, it will be seen as the ridiculous idea it is. Pelosi's stretch to defend birth control as stimulous was quickly shot down, and this bill if loaded chuck full of like kind spending.

DISTURBED BY THE BOARDS
I am currently reading "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand. All these unelected BOARDS and COMMITTEES are frightfully reminiscient of the of the destructive behaviors of the governements of the world bring down the status and standards of all the people. I fear all of this big grab for the heart of our economy will result isn a horrible ditortion of the opportunities of us allto be independent and act efectively in our own behalves. It should stop now.

AOL Poll
Go take this poll: Does the stimulus have the support of the American people? http://news.aol.com/political-machine/2009/01/29/hot-seat- stimulus-package/

Hand picked executives
Bailouts, stimulus checks and corporate welfare only abled Obama a couple corporate executives.

jerabaub
Amazing. Easy to spot a liberal trying to be relevant. Use your argument to attack the republicans. Please why not use Tip O'Neill as an example instead of Tom Delay. Wouldn't it have been nice if the press had reported that the wonderful Harry Reid didn't allow a republican amendment to reach the senate floor since August leading up to the election. I bet McCain would have won and the democrats would have been in trouble in the senate if that had happened.

53%?
and how many of that 53% were due to a flagrant bribe? lets calculate. obama promised income tax reduction to 95% of americans. only approximately 50% pay any income tax at all. that leaves 45% that were promised a bribe. bribery is illegal. 53-45 is 8%, which is the unbribed percent of obama's "win". congratulations, american voters. you have achieved 3d world political ethics. enjoy.

Thin Ice
Well said, George Will!

Marxism?
Marxist wouldn't throw money at banks, they would nationalize them and send their executives to re-education camps (If they were lucky).


OnceAlwaysaMarine: "These structuralist approaches, so called because the source of social problems is located in the social structure rather than in the individual" Are you saying that the 20,000 people laid off by Caterpillar or the 30,000 who are losing their jobs at Circuit City are individually responsible for this.

Polyanna's
In the end, none of it will work as intended. But that includes Obama's "spending", and Tax cuts. NoKoolAid ignores the practical fact that the Fed's monetary policies created two bubbles that provided false wealth which in turn was pumped into the economy and employed enough people to keep unemployment below 5%. The first bubble, the stock market, lasted from 97 - 2001, the second, the real estate bubble, lasted from 2002 - early 2007. Each added trillions in unearned money.

During the real estate bubble, we also saw record federal deficit spending - which also added jobs.

Now, the Fed is out of bullets. We can't inflate the stock market again, real estate is off the table for 20 years, manufacturing is too small these days to pick up the slack, and the financial services industry is melting down from providing 17% of jobs to under 10%.

What's left is Federal deficit spending. Obama start's with a $1.2 trillion deficit that he inherits, and will add his stimulus package - some of which will not stimulate.

But, it cannot return the economy to 5% unemployment. Any more than tax cuts can.

We will have 10% unemployment by the end of this year, and it will not improve to more than 7% in the next 4 years - because the two engines of empoyment we relied on for the last 10 years - technology job creation fueled by the stock market (there were only 5 Initial Public Offerings last year vs. 300 or so a year in the 90's), and the real estate bubble are gone. Combine this with a declining tax base due to rising costs of deficit spending and debt, and rising entitlement costs, and the question then becomes just how long any president can continue to convince the rest of the world to finance our excessive deficits.

The polyanna's will claim that tax cuts or spending will do the trick - but they'll be wrong.

Bob
Where have you been the past eight years?

Too many Republicans want the government to give American taxpayer's money to nuclear power companies and decide that they are going to be 'winners' in the energy supply marketplace.

American taxpayer's wealth was redistributed in the 1950's. The promise was that electrical power would be so cheap, that a watt-meter wouldn't even be needed on a house. Pay a flat fee of $2 a month and take as much 'juice' off the grid as you want. That's what was promised.

The only problem was that the nuke power industry got fat, lazy, and stupid sucking off the teat of the government sow.

Now, Republicans are planning the same 'great' idea. Once these companies get their taxpayer money, then a multi-million dollar bonus will be given to just too many power company executives. All they have done is garnish some taxpayer's monies and have produced nothing in the dreaded free market.
Slovenliness and stupidity will surely follow.

It's time to get the US government out of the picture when it comes to deciding who will be the winners and losers in the 'free' market.

When Republicans want to emulate Socialist/Marxist France, then you know they have shown their true stripes.

feargalix
sometimes when I see pennsylvania under the name I think I need to move to another state. If Obama ends up worse than Bush. Please stop the Bush attacks. Obama is there to screw up all by himself, and he is more than equipped to do it.

r729
By all means, let us use Tip O'Neill as an example.

His relationship with Reagan was one of cordiality, even friendship.

One of the first people who came to see an injured Reagan after the assassination attempt was O'Neill.

The two differed on greatly policy, but there was a mutual respect that is sadly lacking today between democrats and republicans.


William 4:59 AM
Impressive analysis. Can you provide any reading sources?

How Will The GOP Senate Behave
Probably the biggest political disappointments conservatives have seen in recent years is with thier GOP Senators. While the GOP enjoyed 4 years of majority (2003-2007), it never was able to enact or help with a conservative agenda. There were always Senators willing to cut a deal and join the Dems.

The biggest majority the GOP enjoyed was a 55-45 majority. However, at various times Sen McCain, Senators Olympia Snow and Susan Collins, Chuck Hegel, Lindsay Gramm, or Lincoln Chaffee cut deals with thier opponents. The most famous being the Gang of 14 that saved the Democratic Filibuster on judicial appointees. Normally, whenever the House won a significant politcal victory, one could count on the GOP Senate to give it away.

Which brings us to Obama's Stimilus. The GOP House members rallied behind Boenner and issued a big NO. Obama desperately needs GOP cover, for when this bill fails to deliver jobs he will need to divert much of the blame to the Republicans. His basically needs 20 GOP Senators to cross the aisle and cut a deal. In what form will the 30 pieces of silver come in? The Senate Dems will NEVER tolerate meaningfull tax breaks; nor will they be willing to slice about $400 billion of the current bill. My thinking is McCain will be showered with positive press coverage and he will twist as many Republican arms as possible. Look for a sell-out

jerabub
I agree.

Remember the calls of the Left for Cheney to die from a heart attack or Tony Snow would die from cancer?

As far as hospital visits go, I wouldn't want Queen Nancy or Dingy Harry on the same floor as me.

Precedence Exists, Though
Didn't Andrew Mellon prove that by cutting taxes on the rich in the 1920's (when they were the only ones being taxed) the economy would boom? If so, why do we need a stimulous package that includes anything other than a tax cut across the board, but especially on the upper 5% of tax payers?

to tell the truth
Actually, Denise; it was in Huffingtonpost where a few stupid cretins posting after their meds had run out that those awful sentiments were expressed. You know; simpletons-- welcomed there every day. The place is rife with degenerates. Even a few of their columnists sink to that level. Of course, you're telling us it's the Left, which does cover that type as well. We on the Right have a few wackoes freely spreading hate too.


James
"Didn't Andrew Mellon prove that by cutting taxes on the rich in the 1920's."

Errrr.....I think the end result was the Great Depression.

Where's The Effigy?
DreadNaught, yes there are few on the Right, but the Left takes the cake.

I don't remember burning an effigy of, say, Bill Clinton although he did garner a lot of "f's" from me.

zapdoodat
writes, "American taxpayer's wealth was redistributed in the 1950's. The promise was that electrical power would be so cheap, that a watt-meter wouldn't even be needed on a house. Pay a flat fee of $2 a month and take as much 'juice' off the grid as you want. That's what was promised."

ROTFL. zapdoodat, you really post the most deranged comments on this board most of the time.

"It's time to get the US government out of the picture when it comes to deciding who will be the winners and losers in the 'free' market."

I agree. If this were the case we would probably be getting our electricity practically free from nuclear power plants. Who stopped this? My impression was that the government under pressure from the people decided this industry should lose. Safety issues you know. The same thing is happening now. Oil, gas, and coal are being declared losers. Gotta save the planet, safety issue, you know. If only the government could start a program to remove keyboards from people like you, I could finally have an interventionist government policy I would support. Safety issue, you know.

Btw, please share your conversion story with us. We all want to know how you came to see the light regarding socialism and government as savior since it seems only yesterday, you were a die-hard supporter of such.

Hitchhiker
Even Ronald Reagan prayed at the alter of Socialism from time-to-time!

A year ago, I read “An American Life, Ronald Reagan – the autobiography.” I thought there would be no better way to learn about small government, free market conservatism than from the Maestro himself.

I was shocked to read this on pages 344 and 345.

“Through it all, the farmers who suffered most were those who had been encouraged to overproduce by the billions of dollars available in federal subsidies.”

and,

“In the farm crisis of the mid-eighties we gave farmers more billions than any administration in history. Frankly, I didn’t relish giving so much of the taxpayers’ money away, especially when we were battling to bring down the deficit. But farmers were facing a real emergency, and since government had produced many of their problems, I believed it had an obligation to help bail out the victims, then to work to return farming to the free market.”

Wow, looks like we are still BAILING out the VICTIMS 25 years later. I wish the government would treat unemployed software engineers, like me, with this kind of conservatism. I could have collected a large unemployment check every month for five years and when my job skills had deteriorated, I could be declared a “victim” and President Reagan would mandate an even bigger check, a so-called “bailout” from the federal government, perhaps several hundred grand.

And now, in the year 2009, with farm subsidy handouts and ethanol mandates approaching $35 billion a year, we are well on the way to a free market in agriculture or the FINANCIAL SERVICES industry? The bailouts are only getting bigger.

It's a big shame that the vast majority of these farm handouts go to people who are self-described Republicans and Conservatives.

zapdoodat
The Great Depression was caused by manipulative monetary policies of the Federal Reserve and restrictive trade barriers, not a tax cut. It was worsened when Government tried to solve the problem with spending and we only got out of it after many of those policies were abandoned by FDR and the rest of the world blew up all of its productive capacity, giving America a 10 year monopoly on manufacturing.

Justin
"The Great Depression was caused by manipulative monetary policies of the Federal Reserve"

what kind of manipulations? Tightening the money supply?

A test of morality and integrity
It has been immoral of the press not to let voters know what is in the stimulous bill.

It has been immoral to call it stimulous when democrats are paying off constituents who will receive their share of the stimulous just before the 2010 election.

It has been immoral to rush this bill through for approval thereby taking advantage of the economic situation to get things democrats have wanted for years.

It was immmoral of Pelosi not to let republicans have a voice in putting together the stimulous bill.

It has been immoral of congressman to use this bill for personal gain like Obey who put in money for the parks department so as to double its budget where his son is employed.

As Rush Limbaugh says, it is therefore immoral for republican senators particularily to vote for this bill knowing all they know about what is in it.

CAFE for Cafe?
When the country is in a severe recession, your state needs a bailout, and your city is flat broke, what does a Mayor do?

Well, of course, let's attack restaurants over salt content in food.

The citizens of NYC are in revolt and restaurants are already suffering due to a decrease in diners, but leave it to Mayor Bloomberg to want a new SALT Treaty.

Zap
"what kind of manipulations? Tightening the money supply?"

The opposite: very low short term interest rates were kept too low, too long. A bubble developed in the stock market (1927-1929) much like our real estate bubble. Also, consumer credit for the first time became available to a large portion of our population.

The 1929 stock market crash was forshadowed by a European banking crisis in early 1929 (the Anstalt Bank of Vienna got it started). By October the institutional investors began selling while prices were still high; this set off the panic which engulfed Wall St.

The Fed began raising interest rates before the crash, continued the rate hikes to soak hp excess capital (but it was too late).

Wagyu The Dog!
Stimulapalooza Porkulis followed by Wagyu Feast.

Yesterday was a fabu day "just a guy from the neighborhood."

Oink!

zapdoodat....brain zapped!
You just cannot critically think. Your Ronald Reagan quotes confuse the difference between free market principles and politics. One man in charge can only do so much as Obama is going to find out.

What we need is a Congress full of Ronald Reagan's that have the courage and fortitude to rip the band aid off and just say "NO! NO MORE!"

One president against an entire Congress full of spend thrifts will never be enough.

George Will
"Having received near 53 percent of the popular vote -- better than Ronald Reagan's 50.7 percent in 1980 -- Barack Obama won 100 percent of the presidency, and almost that much of the nation's leadership expectations now that the public, which really should diversify its investments, invests such extravagant hopes in presidents. To govern is to choose, always on the basis of imperfect information, and the president may never have more public support than he has now. He deserves some deference. Some."


Calculating how political winds shift in this country, especially on the heels of 20/20 hindsight, I would have to say Republicans did the right thing in not giving deference. This stimulus will not stimulate one thing, and will fail it's objective. Republicans know this. When a ship has a huge hole in it only a fool would get on it and expect it to sail.

Furthermore if Obama wants quid pro quo, he best give some in order to get some. Lip service does not count.

Gold Problem in the Great Depression
Another problem during the Depression was that all banks were required to cover all the deposits with gold. But the gold value was set at $32 an ounce. When the bank owners found that they could sell that gold to Europe for far more, most of them did. Then it was discovered that the banks did NOT have anything to cover the money they had deposited. When people went in to get their money back, that caused the banks failing.

FDR and friends therefore made it illegal for Americans to own gold to prevent that from happening - particularly since many of the larger banks were owned by FDR's family and friends. The people then lost faith in the banks, in non-gold currency, and in the economy. It took them awhile to recover that faith, particularly with the other things done to "help" them. It was WWII that finally caused the recovery of the economy primarily by manufacturing and exporting a vast amount of goods (ammo, etc.). By then a new generation was in the work force who were used to green backs.

So we should trust the GOP?
You talk about Hayeks wisdom then imply that the GOP is smart enought to know what will and what will not work. Yea, sure they do. This sounds like more RINO speak. Sounds like your saying we can actually be partially soscialist. Big government is good if ok'd by the GOP? Is it any wonder most of us see no difference between the parties these days?

In re: sjpatejak 1
sjpatejak
Location: DC
Reply # 20
Date: Jan 29, 2009 - 9:59 AM EST Marxism?
Marxist wouldn't throw money at banks, they would nationalize them and send their executives to re-education camps (If they were lucky).


OnceAlwaysaMarine: "These structuralist approaches, so called because the source of social problems is located in the social structure rather than in the individual" Are you saying that the 20,000 people laid off by Caterpillar or the 30,000 who are losing their jobs at Circuit City are individually responsible for this.
_____________________________________________

No. I'm not saying that at all, quite the contrary. What I AM saying, however, is that when government manipulates markets and enacts coercive policies [in the name of "social justice" or "entitlements" call it what you will] in order to, however well-intentioned, to create a situation where banks and other free-market institutions are required to extend credit or capitol to people [or businesses] who cannot afford to repay them, such as what has happened in the Mortgage Lending debaucle [ala, Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac], then rather than effecting positive change, when these defaults begin to take place such as they have, more government intervention only exacerbates the problem that can only be solved if the market is allowed to correct itself.

Catepillar and Circuit City are, unfortunately, some of the first and more obvious casulties of an untenable situation in which government-stimulated "false" wealth has not been able to sustain itself.

In re: sjpatejak 2

The workers are losing their jobs as a direct result of this failed policy which led to their companies having grown along with and beyond a credit market built on government bureaucratic manipulation and "false" capitalization, a housing boom built on bad Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae loan guarantees, and "false" wealth credit buying that could no longer sustain itself, thus leaving them bloated beyond what the true value of their commodities were worth.

It's not the workers fault, it's the politicians like Barney Frank, Charlie Rangel and Maxine Waters, who forced the banks into making unredeemable loans and mortgages to affect "social justice."

The belief that markets can be controlled by a federal bureaucracy and that "social justice" can be dictated by a redistribution of wealth is exactly what Obama and "progressive" Democrats are pushing.

That's "Conflict Theory" in social policy...

...and that, sir, is Marxist at it's core.

And if you pay real close attention to what Obama & Co. are saying [and doing], you will find that nationalizing the banks and other financial institutions, is just what they are proposing to do...exactly what FDR did, except for less noble reasons.

In fact, they "nationalized" the home mortgage loan business under their last Democrat administration [President Clinton], and that's precisely the root of the current free-market collapse.

Lolo1
"One man in charge can only do so much as Obama is going to find out."

So your Ronald Reagan was a victim?

Here's how Reagan failed the country!

In Alan Greenspan's 'The Age of Turbulence', pg 102, we have the following tidbit of his thoughts at the end of 1988.

"The economic indicators, meanwhile, were far from encouraging. Huge government deficits under Reagan had caused the national debt to the public to almost triple, from just under $700 billion at the start of his presidency to more than $2 trillion at the end of fiscal year 1988. The dollar was falling, and people were worried about America losing its competitive edge."

and


"When George Bush won that fall, I hoped the Fed and his administration would get along. Everybody knew that whoever came in after Reagan would face huge economic challenges: not just an eventual downturn in the business cycle, but whopping deficits and the rapidly mounting national debt."




Oncewalwaysamarine
"It's not the workers fault, it's the politicians like Barney Frank, Charlie Rangel and Maxine Waters."

Dismal failure of an analysis.

The House Finance Chairman was a Republican for 12 of the past 14 years. The Republican party has been a big failure for the American people.

For your spin to work, I would have to believe that the liberal, homosexual, Democrat from Massachusetts, that is both gay and liberal, has more power than the President of the United States of America.

Did you know that the Speaker of the House was a Republican from January, 1995 through January of just last year?

Did you know that the House Finance Chairman was a Republican from January, 1995 through January of just last year?

What's the point of being in the majority if, you don't exercise power?

Any attempts of Republican reform of Fannie and Freddie the past decade was about taking power from those two entities and giving it to Wall Street. Wall Street used an average leverage factor of 40 and Freddie and Fannie about five. It was all this over-leveraging that imploded the Financial markets.

Even the Chinese Are Starting
To say, "No, We Will Not" buy your "paper".


So, what is the government going to do? Mass stimulation of the printing presses? Great, I will need a F150 full of worthless cash to buy a loaf of bread.

In re: zapdoodat 1
You say: "[Any attempts by Republicans to reform FM and FM in the past] decade was about taking power from those two entities and giving it to Wall Street. Wall Street used an average leverage factor of 40 and Freddie and Fannie about five. It was all this over-leveraging that imploded the Financial markets."
_______________________________________________


"The Bush administration [Sept.11,2003] recommended the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crises 10 yrs. previously."

http:query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E06E3D6123BF932A2575AC0A9659C8B63&scp=1&sq=&st=nyt

"Among the groups denouncing the proposal...were the National Assoc. of Home Builders and Congressional Democrats who fear that tighter regulation of the companies could sharply reduce their commitment to financing low-income and affordable housing."

"These two entities--Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac--are not facing any kind of financial crises," said Representative Barney Frank of Mass., the ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee.

"The more people exaggerate these problems, the more the pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing." Rep. Frank added.

Representative Melvin L. Watt, Democrat of North Carolina, agreed.

"I don't see much other than a shell game going on here, moving something from one agency to another and in the process weakening the bargaining power of poorer families and their ability to get affordable housing," Mr. Watt said.

In re: zapdoodat 2
Investor Business Daily in their Editorial page, Monday, September 15, 2008, stated the following:

"Obama in a statement yesterday blamed the shocking new round of subprime-related bankruptcies on the free-market system, and specifically the 'trickle-down' economics of the Bush administration, which he tried to gig opponent John McCain for wanting to extend.

"But it was the Clinton administration, obsessed with multiculturalism that dictated where mortgage lenders could lend, and originally helped to create the market for high-risk, subprime loans now infecting like a retrovirus the balance sheets of many of Wall Street's most revered institutions.

"The untold story in this whole national crisis is that President Clinton put on steroids the Community Redevelopment Act, a well-intended Carter-era law designed to encourage minority homeownership. And in so doing, he helped create the market for the risky subprime loans that he and the Democrats now decry as not only greedy but 'predatory.'"

You can read this entire editorial at:

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=3063707892 79709

Oncewalwaysamarine
Most of the sub-prime loans made were outside the government's regulatory framework. Private mortgage companies made, by far, the most sub-prime loans. They did so, because Wall Street could quickly package them up and sell them off, making a profit for everyone involved. Only banks that had FDIC insurance and are regulated by the government are subject to the Community Reinvestment Act.

How many loans was the insurance company AIG forced to give?

How many loans were Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers, Merrill Lynch, JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs forced to give? Nil, they were outside the regulatory framework.

Are you telling me all those pesky credit card and home re-fi offers I got in the mail was because the government forced the companies to send them? I got dozens every week!!

In re: zapdoodat 3
Under the president's [Bush, 2003] proposal a new agency would have been created within the Treasury Department to assume supervision of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. The new agency would have had the authority, which, at the time rested with the Democrat-controlled Congress, to set one of the two capital-reserve requirements for the companies. It would have exercised authority over any new lines of business. And it would have been able to determine whether the two were adequately managing the risks of their ballooning portfolios.

The Bush administration's proposal was endorsed in large part by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and would not have repealed the significant govt. subsidies granted to the two companies.

(this is additional information taken from the NY Times article written by Stephen Labaton)

No wonder there is nobody in the Democrat-controlled Congress calling for an investigation of the screwed up regulation and oversight of these companies...THEY [DEMOCRAT CONGRESSMEN] ARE THE CULPRITS!!

They were lining their pockets with campaign contributions from Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae!!

Christopher Dodd DemocRAT Senator from Connecticut was the number 1 recipient of Fannie Mae and Fannie Mac campaign contributions.

BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA (having only been in the Senate now for 3 years) is a CLOSE 2nd!!

John "Genghis Khan" Kerry rounds out the top 3 recipients of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac largess!

Barack Hussein "...my Muslim faith" Obama was given a MSM pass on the campaign trail railing about the "greed of Wall Street" and blaming the collapse on "the failed policies" of President Bush's administration; implying that with John McCain, the American people could expect more of the same.

Oncewalwaysamarine
The Bush White House philosophy stoked the mortgage bonfire.

“We can put light where there’s darkness, and hope where there’s despondency in this country. And part of it is working together as a nation to encourage folks to own their own home.” — President Bush, Oct. 15, 2002.

Then just last year, the credit markets, gripped by panic, had frozen overnight, and banks were refusing to lend money.

Then his Treasury secretary, Henry M. Paulson Jr., told him that to stave off disaster, he would have to sign off on the biggest government bailout in history.

Mr. Bush, stunned, said “How did we get here?”

From his earliest days in office, Mr. Bush paired his belief that Americans do best when they own their own home with his conviction that markets do best when let alone.

He pushed hard to expand homeownership, an initiative that dovetailed with his ambition to expand the Republican tent — and with the business interests of some of his biggest donors.

And the regulator Mr. Bush chose to oversee Fannie and Freddie — an old prep school buddy — pronounced the companies sound even as they headed toward insolvency.

As early as 2006, top advisers to Mr. Bush dismissed warnings from people inside and outside the White House that housing prices were inflated and that a foreclosure crisis was looming. And when the economy deteriorated, Mr. Bush and his team misdiagnosed the reasons and scope of the downturn; as recently as February, for example, Mr. Bush was still calling it a “rough patch.”

“The Bush administration took a lot of pride that homeownership had reached historic highs,” Mr. Snow said in an interview. “But what we forgot in the process was that it has to be done in the context of people being able to afford their house. We now realize there was a high cost.”

“No one wanted to stop that bubble,” President Bush said. “It would have conflicted with the my own policies.”

And here we are!

zapdoodat@3:42 PM
Your arguement wasn't convincing when you first posted it last year; its less so now.

The fact that Republicans were unsuccessful in completely protecting us from misguided Democratic policies, in no way argues that we should now give free reign to the authors of those policies.

Likewise the fact that Republicans and Democrats alike have been spending like crazy since early 2008 to stimulate the economy and avert a recession with increasingly bad results suggests to me that Obama's newest massive spending plan might not be the "change" we were "hoping" for.

zapdoodat
I provided you with references, web addresses to the NY Times and Investor's Business Daily sources of my information.

You make a good attempt at revisionist history, however, your lack of any support to back up your claims doesn't add any shred of credibility to your argument.

Oncewalwaysamarine
Are you telling me Barney Frank had more power than George Bush the past eight years?

Are you telling me that the House Finance Chair was not a Republican for 12 of the past 14 years?

Oncewalwaysamarine
"I provided you with references, web addresses."

The same references and web addresses who spew the notion that it was the Clinton Administration that MADE the defense cuts of the 1990's. As all good conservatives well know, it was the Republican-controlled Congress who made defense cuts that put this nation in danger, no grave danger.

These Republican lies about who cut our national security needs is national disgrace. As a proud marine you should not pander and cater to opportunists who lie while our soldiers die. If these god-less Republicans are willing to lie about matters of national security then they are willing to lie about anything!


zapdoodat in re: Barney Frank 1

I'm telling you that Barney Frank, in his role as chairman of the House Financial Services Committee was regarded as a more credible witness before Congress when testifying about matters of which he was supposed to be an expert, seeing as it was his duty to oversee these entities; NOT President Bush and the Executive Branch of government.

The same Barney Frank who claimed that what the President and other Republicans were saying about the condition of Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac, were [in effect] lies to deprive "poor" [read: black] people from owning homes. Implicit in his derisive remarks was the spector of the Democrat straw "bogeyman" racist Republican card.

The same Barney Frank who, rather than being criticized for his part by the likes of revisionists like yourself, instead of being held to account for his ineptitude, is being held up as trustworthy to provide us with the solution to the mess he helped to create!

zapdoodat...In re: Barney Frank

Take this example of Barney Frank's judgment and ethics:

"That $700 billion TARP (Troubled Asset Relief Program) bill was in part simply a variation on congressional pork - except this time the recipients were banks with friends in high places.

One of those powerful friends was Rep. Barney Frank (D-Newton), chairman of the House Financial Services Committee. And one of the recipients of a $12 million infusion of federal cash was the troubled OneUnited Bank in Boston - a bank that had already been accused of “unsafe and unsound banking practices.” Its CEO, Kevin Cohee had also been criticized by regulators for “excessive” pay that included a Porsche.

Frank admits he included language in the TARP legislation specifically designed to bail out OneUnited. He also acknowledges contacting officials at the Treasury Department about the bank’s bailout application."

http://news.bostonherald.com/news/opinion/editorials/view/2 009_01_24_Frank_s_hypocrisy/srvc=home&position=also

The foxes are still in the hen house screwing us all around, and people like you can't get over your Bush-derangement long enough to remove your necks from under the chopping block.

Oncewalwaysamarine
Your President, George Bush instructed his lieutenant, Hank Paulson, to get the $750 billion 'quick and clean.'

Quick and Clean was designed to transfer as much money to the financial elites as possible. AIG used money for spas and champagne. Many used the taxpayers money for stock dividend payments. Many used it for executive bonuses. Citigroup bought a new $50 million corporate jet.

Did you know Wall Street gave out $18 billion in bonus's last year?

Bush Cr@p, Obama Trash
Zap:

Stop assuming that fiscal conservatives AGREED with Bush's spending policies. There was a huge outcry over TARP and McCain suffered when he "suspended" his campaign to rush back to Washington only to VOTE FOR THE F'ING CR@P.

Republicans and McCain, rightfully, paid a price. Why double-dog down on MORE reckless spending by government?

How does $150M for honey bee insurance or $20M for fish barrier removal "jump start" the economy?

zapdoodat, in re: Barney Frank 3
The same article continues:

“I believe it would have been a very big mistake to put the only black bank (in Massachusetts) out of business,” Frank said. Besides, he insists, “It was a case of the federal government causing the problem.”

Causing the bad loans OneUnited made? Or would that go back to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, which Frank so staunchly defended earlier on?

Frank has never failed to amaze us with his ability to defend the indefensible and to staunchly uphold the double standard. It’s his special talent."
______________________________________________

President Bush is gone.

But Barney Frank and Barack Hussein Obama, both men of questionable character, judgment, and ethics, are still there to continue to screw things up.

Perhaps Paulson has some unanswered questions as to why he came to the President like a chicken with his head cut off asking for billions of taxpayer dollars...but are you proposing we now capitulate to more of the same from Geitner, who Obama elevated to head the same Treasury Dept. and oversee our trillions even after he was exposed to have committed the chargeable felony of failure to even attempt to pay his own taxes?

Do you support entrusting these two with trillions more of our taxpayer money?

zapdoodat
What party affiliation do you think is shared by the people on Wall Street who received the $18 million dollars in bonuses?

Get a grip.


$18 billion in bonuses
I'll bet you a dollar to a dime that, to a man, they all contribute to, vote & support Democrats.

onceamarine said:
$18 billion in bonuses
I'll bet you a dollar to a dime that, to a man, they all contribute to, vote & support Democrats.
*****************************************************

You are half right -- they also all contribute to Republicans. The politician's stripe means nothing -- owning them means everything.

Oncewalwaysamarine
"Wall Street who received the $18 million dollars in bonuses?"

It was $18 billion! Stop trying to minimize the transfer of wealth that Republican kleptocrats have implemented.

NOT TO MENTION THIN UNION ICE
FORCED "SOVIET STYLE" UNIONIZATION
Workers don't want it, companies don't want it and union members don't want it. Why have it?

http://greensrealworld.blogspot.com/2009/01/soviet-like-for ced-unionization.html

Spare us from Obama
George is ways too kind to Obama. To me he is a clown. And he isn't, the followers of he personality cult surely are. Looking at what he has done so far. Is this what he have come to expect from Obama;
1. Saving the economy with more bureacracy, or put another way, saving capitalism with socialism.
2. Closing Gitmo, then after asking what do we do with the crazies in there.
3. Making out Afghanistan is sooo important, Iraq is not.
4. Having Iran mock the pathetic naive attempt at making nice to muslims.
He is pathetic. Have our expectations of a President sunk so low?

WHEN ON THIN ICE !
NEVER TRY TO READ A ARTICLE BY GEORGE WILL !THE ARTICLE WILL TAKE TO LONG TO READ AND UNDER STAND AND YOU WILL FALL THROUGH THE POND!MY, MY MY.

Just
Stop by georgy to give you the usual one star you liberal girly man.

Mr. Will
We *can* know beforehand whether or not the stimulus plan will work. We can know because classical economists and their modern heirs, the Austrian School, have already determined the basic laws of economics. It is only an anti-causality mentality that insists that it cannot know in advance if a thing will act according to its nature. (This thing is a monster).

Regarding the subject of polls, the media once again misrepresented public support for the stimulus plan. The WSJ/NBC News poll story claimed that, "Overall, the poll found strong public backing for the stimulus plan..."

What does it mean by "strong support?" Scroll down to the pie chart. Only 43% supported it. That is a minority. That is a substantial distance from a quorum. The rest of the people were anti-, don't know, or don't care. This plan is unpopular.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123196999580982953.html?mod =djemalertNEWS

The WSJ had better clean the liberals from its house or the Internet Brigade will.

Wrong - Stop!
Will has got it wrong again. When on thin ice move slowly, deliberately and with a light tread. When you have dug yourself into a hole like Obama has in a mere 9 days, stop digging.

He got to George Will too?


George Will writes: “So the deference accorded this president should be proportional to his willingness to acknowledge that neither he nor anyone else can know whether the stimulus will work.”


The "deference accorded this president should be proportional to his" leadership experience and his qualifications for the job. To the best of my knowledge, he’s never even run a Popsicle stand. Little more than 7 years ago he was doing public access TV restaurant reviews for the “Dixie Kitchen and BAIT SHOP”.


~~~


George Will writes: “And from the quantity of deference owed to him, Republicans should subtract the sum of the opportunism of congressional Democrats. If Republicans conclude that the truly stimulative portion of the legislation is less than half the size of the portion composed of banal and brazen opportunism, and irrelevant but consequential policies surreptitiously pursued, they should oppose it.”


Less than HALF?!? Is that the “bar” now? Wasting up to “HALF” is okay?

So George is saying the Dems should get a free pass on up to half-a-trillion dollars of wasteful spending? As long as ONLY *half-a-trillion dollars* of taxpayer money is all that’s wasted, that’s okay, but if a *nickel more* than half-a-trillion dollars is being squandered, Republicans should THEN grow a spine and oppose it?

This is the new “Will Doctrine”?!?

If this is the kind of soft coverage Obama buys for having dinner with George Will, he sure got his money’s worth.

If the Leftists squander even just 5% of a trillion taxpayer dollars (not FIFTY percent, just *FIVE* percent), that’s FIFTY BILLION DOLLARS down the OBLIVION HOLE, George.

Is it “okay” if Conservatives oppose the willful squandering of *just* $50 BILLION taxpayer dollars by Leftists, or should they give the Dems a “free pass” right up to the “fiscal restraint” of YOUR proposed $500 BILLION dollar spending-cap on governmental largess and waste?


Conservative commentators bought off?!?


Why is it that many so-called "conservative" commentators (and many so-called "Republican" politicians) are seeming to behave more like modern examples of the Vichy regime who collaborated with the Germans during the occupation of France in WWII?

Have they been bought off, or have their hearts always been with the enemy?

Will Republicans Stand Up or Cave In
Boy, those bad boys of Wall Street better do as President Obama says and be more responsible or they'll be punished or else what? They won't be handed out as much the next time around? Good grief, America, wake up! Call your Senators in the morning and demand that they cut out the pork to Planned Parenthood and Gay Rights which creates NO JOBS only reduces the population by 2015 worldwide because global warming is coming even though people are freezing to death - duh -and the pork secretly written into the stimulus package that isn't so secret any longer won't create jobs or stimulate the economy. Billions of our tax dollars have already been ripped off and billions more printed and ripped off and unemployment increases while they party and jet around at our expense. Are they attempting to put American back to work and devastate a great nation? That is the question! Call your Senators in the morning and demand that they cut out the pork and reduce taxes and capital gains so small business can create jobs and send out stimuls checks to the taxpayers since the money belongs to the people, not to the politicians!

History and Rules
Scott
Winners write the history and winners make the rules. Wimpy politicians are easier to explain.
While subjugation explains the permanent scars
on the black sense of equity, some of that remains in the Republican politicians "Craw".

10 years before and including WW2 and, after a brief period in the post war era, loyal Democrat voters, duly purchased by FDR when he was able to co-opt that "urgent problem" into an emergency requiring "fast Skating", (thank you Will), sent semi-permanent Democrats to congress and they, now being winners concocted self preserving rules that made Republicans almost invisible. Those Republicans, returning to their mercinary, pork loving voters empty handed, got their head handed to them on a platter!

The majority of the voters in their Republican districts, like all districts, are grubby little pork lovers. The high minded constitute
perhaps 5%. The rest want PORK! And the permenant Democrat Majorities own the only meat market.

So for 40 years the Democrats wrote the rules, each term, giving more "free bread and carnivals" to their voters. Releif, as it was called then, was $15 a month at the beginning.

So as needed, the Democrats paid larger bribes for the souls of their supporters,thereby, not only staying in power, but giving their voters the time to convince themselves they were entitled and, looking at their track record, superior to those dumb Republicans. Any shame for taking unearned benefits was hidden under class envy. So Republicans, even the honerable war hero, Bob Dole, played along, staying alive to fight another day, which when it came, had forgotten how to say no to the "masters" of so many years.

But, as I wrote in another post, Journilists, reporters, pundits, talking heads, reporters need access to bring the symbolic PORK to their editors. They find that to have that access, they have to "render to Caesar".

History and Rules
Scott
Winners write the history and winners make the rules. Wimpy politicians are easier to explain.
While subjugation explains the permanent scars
on the black sense of equity, some of that remains in the Republican politicians "Craw".

10 years before and including WW2 and, after a brief period in the post war era, loyal Democrat voters, duly purchased by FDR when he was able to co-opt that "urgent problem" into an emergency requiring "fast Skating", (thank you Will), sent semi-permanent Democrats to congress and they, now being winners concocted self preserving rules that made Republicans almost invisible. Those Republicans, returning to their mercinary, pork loving voters empty handed, got their head handed to them on a platter!

The majority of the voters in their Republican districts, like all districts, are grubby little pork lovers. The high minded constitute
perhaps 5%. The rest want PORK! And the permenant Democrat Majorities own the only meat market.

So for 40 years the Democrats wrote the rules, each term, giving more "free bread and carnivals" to their voters. Releif, as it was called then, was $15 a month at the beginning.

So as needed, the Democrats paid larger bribes for the souls of their supporters,thereby, not only staying in power, but giving their voters the time to convince themselves they were entitled and, looking at their track record, superior to those dumb Republicans. Any shame for taking unearned benefits was hidden under class envy. So Republicans, even the honerable war hero, Bob Dole, played along, staying alive to fight another day, which when it came, had forgotten how to say no to the "masters" of so many years.

But, as I wrote in another post, Journilists, reporters, pundits, talking heads, reporters need access to bring the symbolic PORK to their editors. They find that to have that access, they have to "render to Caesar".

Sorry for double post
Will try to improve!

Further to Scotts posts
I agree with you completely,Scott. The new standard does seem to be half right is a passing grade in school and half lies OK in Government!

Some things just never get said;

Example: I live in Nevada, Casino land. The casinos in all states are a net loss to the host state(if you make an exception for Vegas and Atlantic Citys tourism) because they do not pay enough taxes to offset the amount of money the locals put into them. Further, a small business man, operating from his garage with one half time employee pays a 2%
higher business tax than the casino which buys nothing locally and pay minimum wages!

And, how about Harry Reid blocking the storage
of semi-spent nuclear material being stored in his cave a thousand feet under a mountain in the Atomic Test Range where 300
atomic explosions have previously occurred without incident? This sight is 90 miles from a million and a half people.

The subject material is presently poorly guarded in 60 locations, all within 50 miles of
80% of the nations people east of the Mississippi River. 18 Miles from New York City!
Our truthful politicians insist it is better off there!

Well, here's a truth, with my complements.
How much is a Trillion dollars?

IF YOU COUNTED IT OUT IN ONE DOLLAR BILLS, AS FAST AS YOU COULD COUNT,IT WOULD TAKE YOU
43,000 (FORTY THREE THOUSAND) YEARS, JUST TO COUNT IT!

Question: Have Congressmen in Washington become Sociopaths? They seem to have no shame or remorse for their actions!

Politicians are Naricissistic by Nature
The type of personality that goes into politics to be a politician is by nature a narcissistic personality. That type of personality is corrupted very quickly by greed and power. That pretty much describes our entire Congress on both sides of the aisle now. It will take a complete collapse of the economy and possibly insurrection by the citizens of this country to wipe the slate clean and start anew.
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