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Sunday, September 07, 2008
George Will :: Townhall.com Columnist
Are You Better Off?
by George Will
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WASHINGTON -- John McCain, who is in what Macbeth called "the sear, the yellow leaf" of life, has revived an oldie from seven elections ago with a campaign commercial asserting: "We're worse off than we were four years ago." This, of course, derives from Ronald Reagan's question, addressed to the nation with devastating effect on his opponent, during Reagan's debate with President Jimmy Carter in 1980.

The nation considered the answer obvious. Reeling from oil shocks worse than today's, with 52 U.S. hostages in Tehran and with the Soviet Union rampant in Afghanistan, voters resoundingly said "no." Today we know that the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan hastened the collapse of the Evil Empire, so some things that seem to make us worse off are not unmixed curses.

Imitation is the sincerest form of politics and in 1996 President Bill Clinton, seeking re-election, urged voters to ask themselves whether they were better off than they were four years earlier. Today we know that the nation's affirmative answer reflected the beguiling beginning of what turned out to be the tech stock bubble, so some things that seem to make us better off are not unmixed blessings.

McCain recasts Reagan's question as an assertion in order to pander to the public's dyspepsia and distance himself from George Bush. Enough.

In contemporary politics, nothing succeeds like excess, so permutations of Reagan's trope are going to recur. Therefore, it is time to consider its deficiencies, which are symptomatic of a desiccated mentality.

Unfortunately, the phrase "better off" is generally understood as a reference to your salary, your bank balance, your IRA and the like. But wait. Are you better off being four years older? That depends.

If you are young, since 2004 you might have found romance, had children, learned to fly-fish and become a Tampa Bay Rays fan. In which case you emphatically are better off, even if since 2004 there has been only a 0.6 percent increase -- yes, increase -- in the median value of single-family homes.

If you are near "the sear, the yellow leaf" of life, in the last four years your expected remaining years of life have declined. But that does not mean you cannot be better off.

Suppose in those years you read "Middlemarch," rediscovered Fred Astaire's movies, took up fly-fishing, saw Chartres and acquired grandchildren. Even if the value of your stock portfolio is down since 2004 (the Dow actually is up), are you not decidedly better off?

The late Herb Stein, one of Washington's wisest practitioners in the field of applied philosophy, aka economics, criticized the "are you better off" question" by noting that "everyone has a certain asset, which is the present value of his expected future life." But "all years are not alike." The years that come later in life can have special richness because one has learned things that enable one to appreciate each year more.

Stein noted that the question about being "better off" is thought to be about facts rather than feelings. But feelings are facts. Facts such as delight, serenity and gratitude have values not easily priced in cash.

The people asking and those answering the "better off" question seem to assume that the only facts that matter are those that can be expressed as economic statistics. Statistics are fine as far as they go, but they do not go very far in measuring life as actually lived.

We do, unfortunately, live, as Edmund Burke lamented, in an age of "economists and calculators" who are eager to reduce all things to the dust of numeracy, neglecting what Burke called "the decent drapery of life." In this supposedly rational and scientific age, the thirst for simple metrics seduces people into a preoccupation with things that lend themselves to quantification.

Self-consciously "modern" people have an urge to reduce assessments of their lives to things that can be presented in tables, charts and graphs -- personal and national economic statistics. This sharpens their minds by narrowing them. Such people might as well measure out their lives in coffee spoons.

In 1934, long before mankind strode jauntily into what it contentedly calls "the information age," T.S. Eliot asked:

Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge?

Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?

So, are you better off than you were four years ago? That depends. On what? That, too, depends.

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About The Author
George F. Will is a 1976 Pulitzer Prize winner whose columns are syndicated in more than 400 magazines and newspapers worldwide.
 
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Obama

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpGH02DtIws

What is this tripe?
Well okay George.

Let's just put more idiots like W. in the White House who spend like drunken sailors, turn a surplus into a deficit, weaken the dollar, and produce one of the worst 8-year stock markets in history.

It's all well and good, as long as we all go fly-fishing.

JoeRP
"Let's just put more idiots like W. in the White House who spend like drunken sailors, turn a surplus into a deficit, weaken the dollar, and produce one of the worst 8-year stock markets in history.

I really don't know where to begin. Maybe I should begin with some facts, Joe. (1) There was no surplus when President Bush took office. Check the facts. (2) The DOW hit its highest point ever (14,000). It didn't start coming down drastically until the banking problem started.

The current problem with the economy started with the banking industry and then continued with the fact the oil supplies were diminishing with the expanding global economy.

The subprime loans actually were started in the Clinton administration, with Clinton and Henry Cisneros looking to find a way to get more people into homes by eliminating many restrictions for people buying homes (Google Henry Cisneros and subprime loans). It is all over the internet.

The oil problem can be laid directly at the feet of the democrats for NOT allowing drilling. If we were allowed to drill, the speculators would realize that there would be much more oil on the market, and they would not drive up the price of oil, to put it simply.

President Bush started out his presidency by stating that we needed to drill, in addition to doing many other things such as alternatives (nuclear, etc.)

ALL IN ALL, JOE, YOU NEED TO CHECK YOUR FACTS BEFORE YOU OPEN YOUR MOUTH!!!!

Don't know about
you JoeRP, but I am making more money than I was 4 years ago, made a lot of money in the stock market, and life is pretty good. Maybe you should change jobs and invest better.

Also if you don't know why the dollar is losing it's value, and if you don't understand that it's actually good for the US economy in the short run to have a weaker dollar then you should limit your comments to what you understand.
cheers.

Pat..
Thanks for that posting - it's sometimes a waste of time rebutting stupidity arising from blind ideology, but hopefully JoeRP is only just ignorant.

That's not the question...
The question is... Are we better off than 8 years ago when we had a Democrat President.

The answer is yes. We aren't in a recession. We don't have Islamic Terrorists emboldened by a do-nothing real President.

We have had lower average unemployment in the last 8 years than in the previous 8 years. And, why is it that nobody remembers all of us with REAL financial knowledge warning the left that if they passed their Minimum Wage Law, that unemployment would go up?

And this is the time that we predicted. The summer is over, and all the minimum wage kids are being let go because they are too expensive for the quantity and quality of work they provide as a whole. Of course, there are exceptions. But on a whole, minimum wage earners get minimum wage because they aren't worth more than that until they learn skills and become more mature.

I have more money in the bank than I had 8 years ago, AND 4 years ago. I live better. I have a better computer. A better TV, my health is better, my neighborhood is better.

McCain is pandering to people who are just wrong. People who don't bother to learn about how things REALLY are. People who forget what happened 8 years ago, or the last time we had a Democrat President before that... James Earl Carter. Malaise anyone? Gas Lines anyone? Double digit interest rates anyone?

Obama would be the second year of Carter, not the third year of Clinton.

And I'd rather have a third year of Bush (which we won't have), than a second year of Carter.

Objectively, we've done VERY well under Bush. Better than under Clinton, and especially Carter.

Voting for the change Obama offers would be voting to jump from the log around the campfire, INTO the fire itself...

That's not change, that's national masochism.

Better Off Than Two Years Ago?
The better question is:

Are we better off now than we were TWO years ago, when Nancy Pelosi and this Democrat Congress took control of things? Gasoline was around $2.38 two years ago, before they stepped in.

The campaigned that they could bring about "Change" and claimed they already had a no-nonsense energy policy ready. Where is it? Where are the Democrats hiding their top-secret energy policy? We haven't seen it. Where is Nancy Pelosi hiding, refusing to come back to Washington, D.C. and fix our energy prohibition problems. America wants to drill and refine NOW, what's the hold up?

I don't blame Bush for the condition of the economy, our problems center around the price of gasoline at the pump. Period. This Democrat Congress has the lowest approval rating ever recorded in American history! Bush's approval rating is in the thirties, while Congress is now at 9% approval rating. We aren't blaming Bush for having Congress hinder any progress every step of the way these past two years. Has everyone forgotten the pajama party Nancy and the Democrats in Congress held trying to get the illegals' votes?

Pat 12:51 AM EST
"(1) There was no surplus when President Bush took office."

You can quibble over what's a surplus, but the bottom line is that Bush's increase in the National Debt is massively larger than Clinton's by any measure you can come up with.

"(2) The DOW hit its highest point ever (14,000)."

The DJIA is measured in dollars. If you're going to compare its value at different times, you have to adjust for inflation. When you do that, the highest value the DOW ever achieved was on January 14, 2000 after seven years of the Clinton administration. The equivalent of that value in today's dollars is 14,590; it closed Friday at 11,221. Under Bush, it has declined by 23%. That's a lot of money gone.

Hmmmmmm
I don't know, George. I really did not follow your thoughts. Guess I am just tired. I wlll say this for you, though, Pat. I like that you laid out the facts for JoeRP. I am so tired of hearing the constant tripe, that Bush caused the problems with the economy, etc. Bush gets blamed simply because Dems have no experience in accepting responsibility for their actions and because he started out profession as a Christian. The hate of Bush started there right off the bat. Now, the philosophy of liberal democratic is "ts not my fault." It is the economy stupid. Its how I was raised. Its because I was offended once last year and my feelings are still hurt and my self esteem has been forever damaged. And it is the welfare state, tax and spend, and the answer is to tax even more if a program fails, because we must not have spent enough on it, so we better spend more. JoeBP, its the stupidity of the leftist economy, the elevation of economic guilt to theological levels, and the fact that since WWII the United States has poured billions after billions after billions of dollars into the infrastructure of countries around the world that has depleted us. The United States has put more money into the development of other nations than all other nations in history combined. Perhaps one of the reasons we have survived despite killing 50 million babies, is because of our personal and national generosity. Palin may be onto something. Let's start taking care of Americans rather than the tired, the poor, the yearning to breathe free who have not come here yet. Except maybe the enslaved in the Sudan.

Recurring Nightmare
Maybe, maybe not.

Four years ago we had four years of Bush ahead of us. Now we have only a few months left to suffer under divisive, unqualified leadership, unless we make the mistake of electing Obama. We're still falling for candidates who are full of baloney (Bush, Obama), so we don't seem any smarter.

Is our long national nightmare almost over, or is it a recurring nightmare of phoney, divisive, unqualified leadership?

Personally, I'm doing better. McCain-Palin 08!

The bureauocracy runs the nation while
the elected officials are running all over the place running all over the place running all over the place.

Elect me, elect me,watch me, lookie me. Barf.
Don Jones
PoeSpirits.com

NO WAY
My wife and I have slipped backwards 20% to 30% and on a FIXED INCOME it really hurts.

Trikcle
Trickle Down Economics definatly did not work for me and my wife on our fixed income of under $50,000.
Seems like there are MORE Billionaires and Millionaires than 7 years ago. The savings from the TAX CUTS went into their pockets, and spending increased causing the Deficit to skyrocket to $10 Trillion. My wife and I will be paying the interest on the deficit until we die. Then our children and grand children will pay until they die.

net worth up 17% a year
Over the last 8 years our net worth has doubled. And that's with my wife being out of the workforce while going to school. Of course, we focus on saving and investing. We have rooms that are unfurnished and paper blinds on the windows. We could be retired by now if the government wasn't taking so much of our paychecks to "help" us.

The left measures results by emotion
As Mr. Will says, "the thirst for simple metrics seduces people into a preoccupation with things that lend themselves to quantification". This is necessary in some areas of economic and social policy, unless you are a lefty, that is. Then you'll be likely to support ruinous taxation and social spending because it feels right and just regardless of the results.

For example, the New Deal, the Great Society, and the War on Poverty squandered trillions of tax dollars extracted from anemic economies to generously shower cash money and public services on Americans who were not working or paying taxes. The New Deal extended the Great Depression by one decade, the Great Society tied an economy on the cusp of booming to its sick bed, and the War on Poverty set the table for the Carter malaise. In the meantime, poverty won the war, the federal government expanded in corruption, waste and inefficiency, and entitlements whose future obligations promise to bankrupt us became political hot potatoes that voters simply toss to the next generation of taxpayers, i.e. their children and grandchildren.

The left's response?: We want more of the same because it feels so good, right and just, and to heck with the numbers; we can't expect doomsaying bean counters to understand. But for my part, I'll continue to heed the bean counters and fret about the bankrupt country the left wants to hand my children and grandchildren.

Bob Munck
How many corporations died on 911????
How many TRILLIONS of dollars and investments went down the drain that day????
I fault President Bush for digging in the White House desk drawers and handing money to victim's families, not attempting to stave off a financial collapse which could have been infinitely worse if some industries hadn't been propped up.
Hate GWB if you like- the congress holds the purse.
Credit( or blame) where credit is due.

Again, Cowboy-
Congress holds the purse; and Robert- go away before I post your IP address.

Wobbie
Your posts always vanish before long, and congress spends the money, not the President.

President Bush will be gone soon enough
Who will you blame for your "miserable failures" then?
Barack Obama?
It is to laugh.

Philosophical Puffery George
Well George, not withstanding all that philosophical puffery, what it boils down to for most people when they see that question is simple economics. That is the lifeblood of the family. In some cases the question is an apt question that has bearing on the way the economy is headed. In other cases it has no bearing at all. Let’s look at that for a moment.

For the average Reagan voter who works and pay taxes it is a fair and accurate question. As the economy either grows, or at least holds steady, the economic fortunes of these voters will grow or hold steady with it.

Contrast that with the average Democrap voter. The average is an inner city welfare recipient. It doesn’t matter what the economy does if one is mired in the endless welfare cycle with no interest in a job. Then there is the other group of Dem voters, the fabulously wealthy who are ashamed of their wealth. It doesn’t matter what the economy does for them either. You might say that they are recession proof.

Oh, to answer the question
I am making less money now than I did 4 years ago, or 8 years ago. That is because I am retired now.

But I consider myself a whole lot better off.

Govt --get out of the way
Better off--(no thanks to the govt) Better off from own initiative and hard work. Too many whining cry babies out there. NOT GOVT's JOB to make your life better...geez, get a grip, dude!

This is hilarious
Watching Wobbie/Ranger29 desperately trying to hijack the thread, and being ignored.

Even funnier is that he's constant saying "and right wing heads will explode" when he knows(or would know if he was as smart as he wants us to think he is)that with the pick of Sarah Palin as his running mate, McCain completely energized and brought into his corner, THE MAJORITY OF THE "RIGHT WING," OR CONSERVATIVE BASE, OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

You know, all of the people that you've been saying for a long time that "you don't need." Right Wobbie?

I can just imagine how badly YOUR head exploded when you saw that he'd picked a "far rightwing nutcase" as his running mate. Right Wobbie?

I also thought it was really hilarious when you posted that you'd "met Sarah Palin."
Sure you did Wobbie. And my name is Pope Benedict XVI.

ROFLMMFAO!!!!

PS Wobbie - Even if you do answer this, don't expect me to reply to the BS you post. You're not worth anything more than this post.

I only made it just to laugh in your face about McCains "far rightwing nutcase" VP pick

Follow the bouncing ball!
John McCain... Macbeth... Ronald Reagan... Jimmy Carter... Bill Clinton... George Bush... Reagan's trope... Tampa Bay Rays... Middlemarch... Fred Astair... Chartres... the Dow... Herb Stein... Edmund Burke... TS Eliot.

All before 3 AM!

Mr Will, can't you just straight-talk for once and get whatever it is you don't like about McCain off your chest?

And to answer you George Will
YES, I AM better off now than I was two years ago. In spite of the fact that the Dimocrats in Congress have succeeded in totally screwing things up in that time.

Better off?
While that is a valid question in an election year, I believe a more important (and obviously always overlooked) question is:

Are the politicians financially better off?

I think we all know the answer to that question. Until we, as a nation, lay down the law to these people we are going to continue to fail to reach our potential. Even if you are a democrat, how can you condone the way that Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi (to cite just 2) conduct themselves? They are both dumber than a sack of hammers - but I guarantee you that both are far better off financially.

Paper shade guy:
You and your wife see the value in building a future that isn't dependent on things that wear out or go out of style.

You and your wife understand what few baby boomers understand: that you can't have everything you want the instant you want it. It takes time and sacrifice to build a fortune.

Immigrants know it. Our parents knew it. Aesop knew it. Pay yourself first. Pay your future before you spend the present.

Hats off to you.

(I'm a slow learner. It took me 30 years to figure out that ants are much better off than grasshoppers.)

I don't know anybody
named "We", but I know one thing: I am much, MUCH better off than I was four years ago, and four years ago I was better off than I was eight years ago. And it has nothing to do with who occupies the Oval office; it's beacuse I made some life-changing choices in Y2K. What becomes of you depends more than anything on what you do, not on who's in office. Neither McCain or Obama will get you a job.

Overstatment By A Myopic, Unfocused Will
Will is overstating matters when he uses Reagan's 1980 point against Carter, and in doing so, Will is being myopic and unfocused. The erudite references in Will's article are like good salad dressing poured on rotten lettuce.

What apparently Will is missing is the obvious -- that in a very tough electoral year for Republicans, McCain is doing an excellent job that now even Rush Limbaugh is vocal in appreciating.

McCain, while standing for an even stronger foreign policy than Bush, genuinely wants to go in some new and good directions in domestic policy -- e.g., true fiscal conservatism that cuts out earmarks and pork barrel spending, a market based health care plan, concerted efforts for energy independence, reform of government. McCain, to be elected at a time when voters are unhappy with the Republican brand, needs to provide the voters with a vision of "change" that provides an alternative to Obama, who is vague because his "change" is to socialist approaches to domestic policy and appeasement-minded weakness in foreign policy.

Will was a pessimist about the Iraq War and has been proven wrong whereas McCain was proven right. Will's latest article seems to show that Will may be again off point, this time about the 2008 election that McCain will win.

One of Will's best in a long time.
I'm gonna try this again; i thought i had posted, but i can't believe that i would have been removed, i don't remember writing anything vile. Phil B's comment sounds as if i got posted, then removed.

I agree with Will that we shouldn't just base our answers to "ru better off now' on quantifiable stuff. That's why I agreed with Doug and Tadd Peake; the rest i felt fell into the quantifying mode. Yes, of course, we need a bare minimum; do you have a roof over your head, food on the table, a computer and good enough health to tap out a few posts?

Maybe its because i majored in philosophy in college, but i like Will's historical and literary references.

So Doug, I agree with you, that our happiness should not hang on who lives at 1600 Penn ave. We somehow survived Clinton, and though i will vote and pray for a McCain victory, i THINK we'd survive an obama as POTUS, may godforbidit.

Phil B, I agree that McCain will be better domestically than Bush. But I don't like the sound of your reference to a "stronger foreign policy." I think we are way to close, if not over the line, into a militaristic, interventionist, world-policing imperial policy. defend ourselved, defend our friends, don't have to intervene in every minor conflict.

That's why many people, especially here in Boston, hated the Yankees, not so much because they won so often, but because of the belligerent swagger.

PS With his Tampa Bay reference, you know Will wants to comment on the Cubs being in first place, but doesn't want to jinx them. Back to my navel-gazing.

Irrelevancy
Whether or not anyone is better or worse off by any measure (economic, social, etc...), it isn't a problem to be solved by either one of these candidates for public office. Every voter ought to be skeptical of politicians posing that question as it implies expanded government intervention in and control over more areas of one's life. My success or failure has little to do with Washington, D.C. or Richmond, but everything to do with my own initiative.

I'd like to hear an echo of my own political philosophy from a candidate: "Got problems? Well, this is America, go solve them yourself!"

Perception is Reality
Those arguing that as dismal as the GOP(and Bush's)poll numbers are, the Democratic Congress' numbers are even lower.

But if that is true, why are virtually ALL prognosticators, even the GOP's, predicting MORE democrats being elected in 2008 to both houses of congress?

It is not by accident McCain polls much higher than the GOP itself.

The only explanation on why the GOP polls so low is its trackrecord during the last 8 years of the Bush presidency, and its trackrecord for the time it controlled congress.

It is neither being pessimistic or optimistic on Iraq for Americans to rightly conclude that given what they know now, they would never have supported the invasion in 2003. Today, sizable majorities of Americans think the war was a mistake.

While the economy, especially gasoline and energy prices, along with falling values in Americans' retirement accounts and homes, and apprehension over job security, help to drive the high numbers of Americans who believe our nation is on the wrong track, the backdrop of Iraq still resonates.

It is possible McCain can win, but it will be DESPITE Bush.

Obama has made some extremely damaging remarks, and his position on energy(a growing concern among Americans)is irrational...Americans rightly support domestic drilling, including anwr, promotion of nuclear energy, etc., and Obama and other Democrats are shooting themselves in the foot by opposing measures to make our nation less dependent upon hostile foreign sources of oil.

JoeRP 09/07/08 12:33 AM TRIPE

I have to agree - this column is tripe.

"Let's just put more idiots like W. in the White House who spend like drunken sailors, turn a surplus into a deficit, weaken the dollar, and produce one of the worst 8-year stock markets in history."

Pat hit most of my points above. However, would you rather see Obama sit in the big chair? If so, please explain why.

Obama has stated many times that he would like to raise taxes. His purpose for raising taxes is not to apply against the national debt but for the purpose of wealth redistribution. Bush may be an idiot as you say but at least he did spend the money on the defense of this country - and that is constitutional. There isnothing constitutional about taking the taxpayer's money and handing it welfare recipients.

We could go thru the entire list of Obama-ese if you would like, but I want to give you time to present your case. I understand that you suffer BDS - Bush is not running for office, so take a deep breath and begin expounding point by point why Obama should sit in the oval office.

Joseph's 7:31 post
Strong on erudition and insight.

Have a cigar.

I totally agree with you that McCain's foreign policy would be even more interventionism, even more of a noxious nanny-state meddling mindset extended to foreign affairs that if applied to domestic affairs socalled faux conservatives would find totally abhorrent.

This election has truly caused me great angst.

I utterly despise McCain's foreign policy, which is nothing more than "Bush on steroids", and I think it will cause great harm to our Republic, but Obama is totally irresponsible on a number of issues...especially energy...and also some other matters.

He is very liberal. Not a good thing.

Our forefathers bequeathed to us a great system, and as bad as either McCain or Obama may be, our system will survive.

A clueless leftist versus a neocon nutjob.

My goodness.

To Joseph re 7:31 AM Post
By my describing Will's article as myopic and unfocused and by my pointing out how Will was wrong and McCain was right about the Iraq War, I obviosly disagree strongly with your highly favorable assessment of Will's article. A few points:

1. I also "like" Will's historical and literary references, but they simply are not relevant to McCain's 2008 Presidential campaign. I am a lawyer, and there are statements in certain judicial opinions that I "like"; but those statements are not necessarily relevant in a particular case that I am litigating.

2. McCain knows his stuff concerning foreign policy, military matters and national security. That McCain was right in calling for the surge in Iraq for a long time before Bush adopted it and at a time when it was unpopular reflects that McCain has the knowledge, ability and experience to make the tough calls to keep this nation safe. There were and are reasons why Henry Kissinger and George Schultz endorsed McCain in 2007. McCain will pursue a stronger foreign policy because he knows how to handle it, not because of Yankees-type swagger.

3. Obama is not a Bill Clinton content to govern centrist with a GOP Congress; Obama is a leftist who will have a Democrat Congress and who is not qualified to be Commander in Chief. This is a dangerous world, and with a resurgent KGB led Russia aligning with an Iran seeking a nuclear weapon, we are entering a really dangerous time when we need McCain.

4. I suggest you are consider the view of military families. I have two sons in the military (US Army Captain whjo served in Iraq and US Marines Second Lieutenant), and I cannot imagine anyone but McCain as the next Commander in Chief.

Look at the bigger picture
Ask the better off question of the Chinese, Indians, Koreans, who are doing jobs Americans won't do because they do it cheaper and technology has made it possible, and most of them will answer Yes!

This drain of jobs and balance of payments has been going on for decades, through both Democrat and Republican administrations, driven by union greed and management mistakes (building poor quality cars or lately just the wrong ones), by consumer greed enabled by easy credit card and mortgage debt, by continuing dependence on finite supplies of foreign oil.

It's economics (a change you can believe in) being played out world-wide and it's not over by a long shot. Neither political party has the smarts or the balls to stop this rollercoaster. Their sum of knowledge has devolved into getting in power and staying there. Pandering has become an art form. Why look to them?

So while we quibble endlessly on these pages over which is the dumbest, lyingest, cheatingest, greediest, dirtiest side of the political spectrum and whose fault it all is, the meltdown continues.

Am I better off? I'd have to say no. I own Ford and GM bonds that yield 8% at par and they're valued at 42 cents on the dollar. But I bought gold so I'm about even. I had choices, I just didn't get enough of them right to be better off. Mea Culpa.


Distance from Bush
I'm pretty much for McCain now, especially after his choice of Palin, but his "distancing" himself from Bush disturbs me. He, and we, owe Bush tremendously for preserving a presidency worth passing on, and for giving us Roberts and Alito.

George, Don't
We do not need another article to explain this one -- it is bad enough without seeing it again. I'm guessing that Jackie Gingrich's today article might run a near last with this one. Many comments, coaxed by the silly George question have to do with the money people have earned or haven't earned. Those who earned enough seem to be okay. Those who haven't, are disgruntled and perhaps are in trouble. Sorry for the troubles. If you didn't earn enough and could work, why didn't you have 2 or 3 jobs at the same time. If you quit while you could still work, why? I am retired but this is a stupid way to go through the remainder of my life. But that is my choice -- and you have yours.

Better off??????????
Pavlov used behavorial conditioning to get the proper reaction from animals to his actions. It's called PAVLOV's RESPONSE. The MEDIA has "conditioned" the response we're discussing thru constant bombarding of negative news and controversy. It is a well documented fact that the MEDIA is LIBERAL [80+ %] so the POLITICAL AGENDA we're experiencing is rather obvious. I find it incredible how they have chosen to attack a fine successful leader and mother of a wonderful American family. Just as they attacked Romney, with similar credentials, ostensibly because he is a Mormon. Destroy anyone who is an obvious threat to their AGENDA?Yet the media says nothing about the associations of "their candidate' who doesn't seem to have a relationship he might be proud to discuss in his life. Let's see Marxists, Anarchists, Subversives, Terrorist bombers, Convicted Felon, etc. Maybe that says alot about what the media elites are really all about?????????

PS
Palin will be president, perhaps as soon as 2012 (2013). That prospect bordering on certainty is what is driving the demothugs and their media enablers nuts. Just imagine, a 7 to 2 or even 8 to 1 conservative Supreme Court! Pour liberals, they have imaginations too. I feel, no I glory in their pain.

To redmanrt re 8:08 AM Post
McCain has numerous times praised Bush for nominating Roberts and Alito to the U.S. Supreme Court and has stated from the start of his Presiential campaign that he (McCain) intends to nominate strict constructionist judges like Roberts and Alito.

McCain, to be elected in this year's electoral climate unfairly hostile to Republicans, needs to create some distance between himself and Bush, and McCain has done so on some issues which are legitimate to do so -- e.g., the need for true fiscal conservatism that cuts out earmarks and pork barrel spending.

My assessment lens spans 50 years
I am "better off" in some ways, and not in others. I find when it comes to finances and choice of a place to live, it has been negatively affected by the growth of government. When it comes to family, we would have preferred to have more than one child, but decided I could comfortably afford one since all of now support many. So, things are good, but involves factoring in ever-encroaching socialism.

As for clients I work with, there is FAR MORE wide spread ignorance,want, and lawlessness than 25 years ago. The entitlement mentality is positively epidemic- which makes no one better off and will continue to metastasize throughout our incresingly demanding and irresponsible society.

Those who live in ways that lead to being better off need to be prepared to be pillaged by those who want to be better off but don't want to make the decisions that yield desirable results.

Jerabaub, Redmanrt, Phil Byler
Jerabaub, thanks for the compliments; even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.

Redmanrt, I agree with you in thanking GWB for preventing another 9/11 under his watch, as we approach that auspicious date, and for Justices Alito and Roberts. I especially am grateful to him for defeating algore and john kerry.

Phil Byler, I consider myself 100% pro-defense, and therefore sincerely honor you and what your sons are doing, protecting our wonderful way of life. I just meant that i would prefer if for the most part, if we could continue to call it the Defense department, and not the offense department, thinking mostly of things like our over-involvement in Georgia, e.g. Of course I think it infinitely preferable that McCain defeat Obama; again, I'm just saying that 23 and 1/2 hours a day, who is in the oval office doesn't doesn't obsess me, mostly because i'm confident that men (and women) like your sons will carry on, no matter who the POTUS. If Ubumya actually turned out to be disloyal to the country, I fear to even express the consequences.

redmanrt
I would love that scenario, but let’s be realistic. The Dems have only held the presidency 16 years out of the past 55 years since the FDR/Truman era. Despite having Repubicans in the office about 70% of the time we have still maintained a liberal majority on the court.

This is for primarily two reasons, first the Dems have held the majority in congress almost all of that time and have thus been able to control the nominees. Second not all of the Republican presidents have been conservatives. In fact, most them have NOT been. Out of all of those 55 years only Reagan was a true conservative. McCain is NOT a conservative and unless Sarah Palin makes it in 2012 we still will not have a conservative.

Rogue cowboy
Are you serious.You have an income of 50 grand and you are crying about it.We are on a fixxed income that is a little over half of yours.I lay alot of blame on Clinton.Had he allowed drilling the oil prices probably wouldn't be this high.Had he got Bin Laden,we probably wouldn't be in Afghanistan.Yes the pubbies in congress spent money foolishly,but they paid the price for it.

Ranger
You've made similar arguments on other posts...anytime someone says they're doing well, you say "It's all about you"...well, I'm doing well and it IS all about me as far as my well-being goes...you speak as if the government is responsible for everyone's financial well-being...I regard my finances as mine and mine alone, not depending on the government to creat something for me or throw me a bone if things are tough, which they won't be if one so chooses...life is about choices, and it's a personal choice whether one succeeds or not...people ARE NOT simply innocent bystanders, swaying to the winds of some invisible "economy" that they can blame if they go down...I am currently, by choice, having my best year in the last 5 (though none of the last 5 have been bad) in literally the most hard hit section of the US "economy", which has somehow failed to drag me under...

The government is not responsible for your individual economy...you are...it is convenient to blame the "economy", but there are millions succeeding in the same "economy"...why not join them?

All men are created equal...then they begin making choices...

Joseph
"Date: Sep 7, 2008 - 8:26 AM EST Jerabaub, Redmanrt, Phil Byler
Jerabaub, thanks for the compliments; even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.

... If Ubumya actually turned out to be disloyal to the country, I fear to even express the consequences. "

I hope you do not mean that the military has been politized to the point of revolt? If you do the country is already in very grave danger. But Bush and you folks have severly damaged both the military and national security and the troops stayed loyal to the constitution if that ever changes we as a nation are finished

Scoobie, doobie, doo
California is in a Financial melt down thanks to the Leftist Bay area Hippie through backs running Sacramento, but the buses are still running, Electricity and water & Gas are still being supplied. There have always been people dealing with hard times and today is no different. The Liberal Media is playing on Fear and its pretty obvious, because they have an agenda. We are not in the Great depression like the Libs would like everyone to believe. Economic slowdowns come and go, and are cyclical. At the end of the Clinton era the Country went into a slowdown, but you never heard so much as a peep out of the Liberal Media about it, could be they were covering for their guy Clinton? We had the same problems then as we do now, Health Care worries and Social Security to deal with, but one thing we have to deal with now that Clinton did not address then is TERRORISM. We were attacked when Clinton was in the White House and he blew it off. You can fault George Bush all you want, but at least he did something when our Country was attacked, and that includes US Embassies (Kenya & Tanzania) on Foreign soil and US Military installations and US Navy Ships! The Liberals are barking at the Moon, so I say through them a Scoobie snack, Scoobie Doo....

jax33
"Date: Sep 7, 2008 - 8:29 AM EST Rogue cowboy
Are you serious.You have an income of 50 grand and you are crying about it.We are on a fixxed income that is a little over half of yours."

LMAO and you are a REPUBLICAN???? Why do you vote against yourself and the country? Are you that downtrodden and submissive?

"I lay alot of blame on Clinton.Had he allowed drilling the oil prices probably wouldn't be this high."

Utter rubbish If all the Republicans and yes Deomcrats had simply enforced conservation we would not only be far more internationally competitive but your Bush would not have had to go begging to the saudi princes - I know the Saudis enjoyed that LOL

"Had he got Bin Laden,we probably wouldn't be in Afghanistan."

Had the Bush Regime not gone off on a war of choice in Iraq Osama and indeed Al Q would no longer exist. Stop being a sheeple and take responsibility for your life and government

It always takes two to Tango............
Hal Donahue
Location: PA
Reply # 2
Date: Sep 7, 2008 - 8:41 AM EST Joseph
"Date: Sep 7, 2008 - 8:26 AM EST Jerabaub, Redmanrt, Phil Byler
Jerabaub, thanks for the compliments; even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.

... If Ubumya actually turned out to be disloyal to the country, I fear to even express the consequences. "

I hope you do not mean that the military has been politized to the point of revolt? If you do the country is already in very grave danger. But Bush and you folks have severly damaged both the military and national security and the troops stayed loyal to the constitution if that ever changes we as a nation are finished
..............................................
Hal, I read your response and find it quite entertaining how the Democrats have washed their hands of all responsiblity in the crisis we are in.
While the current administration, has been astray with our parties Idealogy, Congress of Democrats have been rampant to allow it.
And when ever the system of Checks and Balances goes astray so does the nation.
As I said it takes two to Tango, and only one to bare false witness.

what constitutes our national interest?
We need to have a discussion in our Beloved Republic over what constitutes our national interest, especially when it revolves around the sending of our men and women into combat in order to secure it.

While I am no expert on this matter, I do believe some fundamental rift is occurring within the conservative movement on this question.

Some assert we need a robust, interventionist foreign policy that promotes our "values"...implementation, preservation or fostering of socalled democratic governance. The argument being that freedom at home is only secured if freedom abroad is defended(forcibly if necessary).

In furtherance of this ideal, deployment of our military is appropriate, including the consequences arising from that.

Others assert that we are not guardians of world democracies, and were we to assume that role, including deploying our military, it will lead to the tragic and unnecessary sacrifice of the lives of our soldiers, including their sustaining horrific injuries, on behalf of other peoples and nations having nothing to do with our national interest. Additionally, it will eventually bankrupt us.

I don't think any responsible person would argue against a strong, vibrant U.S. military.

The nature of man being what it is, we must always have the strength to preserve our Republic from those intent on destroying it.


Great line
"Therefore, it is time to consider its deficiencies, which are symptomatic of a desiccated mentality."

and another:

"Unfortunately, the phrase "better off" is generally understood as a reference to your salary, your bank balance, your IRA and the like."

Am I better off?

I will have to answer yes to that question because, like St. Paul, I "have found the secret to facing both plenty and want". (Phil. 4:12)

Obama vs. McCain? The Dow Jones average? Putin and Osama?

Only peripherally relevant.



Finley
"Date: Sep 7, 2008 - 8:41 AM EST Ranger
You've made similar arguments on other posts...anytime someone says they're doing well, you say "It's all about you"...well, I'm doing well and it IS all about me as far as my well-being goes...The government is not responsible for your individual economy...you are...it is convenient to blame the "economy", but there are millions succeeding in the same "economy"...why not join them?"

LMAO tell us a lot more about yourself and your business

"All men are created equal...then they begin making choices... "

sounds simple but it is wrong would you have done as well being born in an urban slum not speaking English with little hope of obtaining an education?

Beware Of Economic "Change"
As a person who is interested in political history of Communism I am very interested in the words of Barack Obama.
All past Communists leaders were good speakers, promised economic change, and insulted those who were rich.
All sounds good until their theory of change were put into practice.

The first step to Communism is to divide the people into the haves and the have nots to enforce a movement of so called" Economic equality"to bring in followers.

The words of Barack Obama is serious because he is vague about his past "community Organizing" & other past experiences.

Obama is no different than Hugo Chavez..He just speaks English well.

Who do you Blame
The question is not are you better off. Because as Will points out not all of the factors are controlled by government and anyway are you better off is a snapshop. The real question is who do you Blame when things are not the way you think they should be? If you are a liberal you think that the government is the engine to fix the problem. If you are a conservative you think that government is the problem. Her is the rub, when you are a conservative who gets elected you can't resist the temptation to meddle. With all that power you want to so something. Some conservatives believe you should cut taxes, get rid of a lot of regulation and go home. But there you are still in office for the rest of your term. So what do you do? Start a war, Reagan had his silly little war in Grenada, spend a lot of money on some missle defense system or any other wish list items from military contractors. But that is usually not enough so you get into social engineering with maybe a conservatives slant but still it is social e engineering ever still.

BUSH, CARTER AND POST VIETNAM
I have been saying for months that the last fours years of George Bush was the second term of Jimmy Carter. One of the worst four years in American presidential history especially in foreign affairs as it is post-Vietnam all over again when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan and Khomeine conquered Iran. While we've had a second term of Carter we don't need a third with Barack Obama, a man who makes Carter look like Winston Churchill.





Am I better Off.........................
Well lets see, Under the old American System of work and unity, after WWII. I was in the best place I had ever been in my life.
After fighting that Johnson/Democrats War in Vietnam, I was worse off and stayed that way until Reagan took Office.
I did good until Clintons 2nd Administration and recouped in the first Administration of GWB's.
Now I am back to not so good and I think I'll be like that till I figure out what I can do that is not against the law to make a living.
Today, everything is either illegal or set up such, you have to be a Corperation to begin it, Health prevents my doing labour or petty jobs so I guess I'll do the only thing I can.
Act like a Democrat and go on welfare LOL LOL Ha ha ha ha. NEVER.
I will endevor to perserver.

OBAMA INDOCTRINATING THE YOUTH -from WND
The tax-funded Chicago organization cited as a probable model for programs to integrate youth into the social and political world under an Obama tenure in the White House is the epitome of "Big Brother" that shovels impressionable youth through a course of brainwashing, according to critics.The organization is called Public Allies and Democratic presidential nominee Sen. Barack Obama was a founding member of the board of directors in 1992. He later resigned and his wife became executive director of the group. WND reported earlier when Obama asserted in a Colorado Springs speech that the U.S. needs a "civilian national security force" that would be as powerful, strong and well-funded as the half-trillion dollar Army, Marines, Navy and Air Force.
In the July 2 speech in Colorado Springs, Obama insisted the U.S. "cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we've set."He continued, "We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded.""Big Brother had nothing on the Obamas," said IBD. "They plan to herd American youth into government-funded re-education camps where they'll be brainwashed into thinking America is a racist, oppressive place in need of 'social change.'"The organization itself doesn't seem that alarming. It describes itself as serving communities "while developing better leaders for tomorrow." Young adults are placed in "community leadership" posts with various agencies and given weekly "training." They get $1,800 plus health and child care.But IBD warns the real mission is something else.That, the editorial said, "is to radicalize American youth and use them to bring about 'social change' through threats, pressure, tensions and confrontation – the tactics used by the father of community organizing, Saul 'The Red' Alinsky."

Why is Sarah MIA?
Where is Sarah?

Don't the American people deserve a chance to hear her answer a few questions from the reporters? After all, McCain does.

She is a heart beat away from becoming the president and the commander in chief. I think that the voters should be able to assess her before she takes office.

Hal.
My fixed income is a pension and SS.It was a democrat B.Clinton in the 90's that raised taxes on SS.The main reason I vote republican although I am a independent,is that I have lived for 75 years and seen the dems raise taxes and give my money to people that won't work

Yes, I am
Yes, I am better off; way better, as a matter of fact. I paid off my mortgae 10 years in advance because I don't trust the govenrment to run anything important in my life. So, why would I trust them with my health care? The GOP has not hurt the military but I can plainly state that if the Democrats win, they certainly will. B.H.O. does not even know the difference in troop strenght between a battalion and a division - in fact, he didn't know that an M 16's bullets cannot be used in the Kalishnikov rifle! Rellay, Robert, sit down and shut up. We know it sux to be a Dem these days but relax, even when the GOP wins the White House again you will still be able to bugger your buddy and murder an unborn child.

It's all about THEM!
Meaning scumbag politicians, pontificating judges and entrenched bureaucrats of all flavors. They couldn't care less how your life is going, as long as they can feather their nest and "save the world." Algore is the archetype, although John Murtha and Ted Stevens are high on the list. Rep. Jefferson is a two bit, piker.

Am I better? None of yer friggin business, and it's none of the gubmints either, EXCEPT they make it their business. Especially after you write a nasty letter to a member of congress, like say Raul "supermex" Grijalva, after which the IRS develops a prurient interest in your whole life. Huh, go figure.

Best line on the thread; "Got problems? Well, this is America, go solve them yourself!" Worst of all possible scenarios for US - Obama bin Biden gets into office and we'll be on a slippery slope to Marxism

Oh, special thanks to Ranger and Hal for posting so much that can be skipped, hence getting me to the bottom of the thread where the good stuff is. You see, I play on these things to stimulate thought and glean information; getting anywhere near some peoples' BDS drivel and leftist lunacy is counterproductive. Neener, neener/Nanner, nanner has been replaced with Neocon! Neocon! Neocon! (anti-Semites new favorite word)

Ignorance is contagious and stupidity is terminal - vote republican.

Will we be
better off with democrats staying in control?

EXISTING DEMOCRAT TAX BILLS

45 TRILLION DOLLARS = Carbon credit Tax
1 TRILLION DOLLARS = Charlie Rangel’s Tax
845 BILLION DOLLARS = Obama’s To-The-UN Tax
76 BILLION DOLLARS = Obama’s gasoline tax
10 CENTS PER GALLON = Gasoline pump tax increase

WE THE PEOPLE PAY ALL TAXES, PERIOD!!!

My husband and I are doing well
no thanks to the government but due to our hard work (my husband came out of an orphange to a law degree and I raised a son and went to graduate school) and due to careful plannng so that in retirement we are comfortable.

In our years together, we experienced my husbands almost two years of employment during the last strong recession in the late seventies. We were frugal and hard working and made it through without government help.

Today, the average voter seems to vote on whats in it for them. Being in Michigan, I am very aware of what this pathetic state has to offer. This is hindsight, but my labor attorney husband predicted the downfall of the Big Three as he witnessed the regular cave-ins to the unions. In an international economy, he knew they couldn't sustain the contracts that just "kicked the can" down the road.

Democrats say McCain doesn't have an economic plan. He does but they don't like it with their class envy and hatred of corporations. McCain wants low taxes, less government and the spending it entails, free trade, honest government, fewer earmarks, drilling in the US which would lower all the prices influenced by the cost of oil. Then we all benefit and jobs are created and government giveaways don't inhibit growth of the economy.

Well, Vito
As a former CT native born and bread, the only thing I can say is that it would suck to be you. My mother is 64 years old and barely makes enought money to live on. She blames no one, still busts her asss, and does what she can to live her life and is pretty happy. I fear for all of the bitter folk I encounter at home in CT. Trouble is, you don't want to move or make changes in your life for the better. You really think the GUb'mint can do it for you.
Get a clue. No matter how much money the gub'mint hands you, only you can be proactive in creating happiness and wealth for yourself,nobody else. I don;t suppose you ever heard of standing by your Country in good times and bad? Nah. But I have and I do. It would suck to be you.

Better off - who's job is that?
I firmly believe that creating a "better" life for myself and those around me is 99% up to me, 1% up to the government. And if I had my way, the government would have much less to do with it than they do now. To the government: stop trying to take care of everyone. Instead, let them keep more of the money they earn through hard work and make their own decisions about their lives, wealth and welfare.

Better Off? You Bet!
Yes, I am better off. I work hard, invest my money, and reap the rewards. Democrats should try it sometime.


Hawkeye58
Look at the bigger picture.

Add destructive taxation as a main cause that employers have been going out of business and leaving the country. If all the hidden indirect taxes were eliminated, the price of everything would drop by 1/3.

Hal
Seems there are way more people here taking responsibility for themselves and succeeding in the "economy" that is so bad than you would choose to believe...as I said, success is a personal choice...does involve work and diligence...it simply ain't the President's job to make your life better...

Questions
For anyone who wants to participate.

A. Starting date of the Second American Revolution
1. If McCain & Palin are elected?
2. If Obama & Biden are elected?

B. Date Obama will throw Biden under the bus, or vice versa?

C. Date 47 trillion dollars in new taxes are enacted
3. If McCain and Palin are elected?
4. If Obama and (?) are elected?

D. Date we start drilling our offshore and ANWR oil
5. If McCain & Palin are elected?
6. If Obama and (?) are elected?

E. Date existing hundreds of existing taxes are replaced with one
7. If McCain & Palin are elected?
8. If Obama and (&) are elected?


Globug
With communism, at the end

There are the dictator and the politburo who HAVE IT ALL, and the rest who have to share what is left.

Vito, where to cut taxes
We the people pay all taxes, and we are the sole ultimate source of all tax revenue. Regardless where government initially collects the money, all tax money ultimately comes from us, the people, even though business has to pay thousands or millions of dollars at one time, and get it back from us one dollar at a time.
Since we the people are the one and only source of all tax revenue:
There should be only one tax to collect all tax revenue.
It should be a single, simple, fair, direct, graduated, individual, full-income tax levied on living persons for each level of government: One Tax and Done.
The best thing that government can do to help the country, the people, and even government, is to repeal all of the many hundreds, or thousands of existing taxes, fees, and charges. These taxes are the federal deficit. These taxes are the high price of everything. These tax eliminations are spending cuts. Every tax that is eliminated is a tax that we the people no longer have to pay. These taxes are the difference between the price we pay for health care and everything else, and the price we would pay if these taxes were repealed. Eliminating these taxes will remove them from the price paid for everything by everyone, including government.
One Tax and Done will provide many benefits to all, even government:
One Tax and Done will end government-caused recessions because governments would cut off their only source of tax revenue.
One Tax and Done will stop reductions in tax revenue because people reduced their use of water, sewage, and other governmental services.
One Tax and Done will reduce the price paid for everything by one-third.

9-7-08
Your question is quite relative....If you mean are we better off financially the answer is no...however, there are other measurements which are much more meaningful in life and in most of those categories we are far better off..and for these we are very grateful.....

Good Question
Since 2006, inflation for food and energy has averaged about 12% (monthly average). I have 7 children, so feeding them is definitely cheaper. Besides demand for energy from other nations skyrocketing, Congress and Bush signed into law in 1995 new Ethanol mandates and subsidies. This has caused the food inflation we now see at the grocery store. McCain did not sign the law and he was critiqued it. Our CO2 emissions have not gone down (easy prediction), and food prices have gone up.

Bush will be gone in a few months, but the Dems will still run Congress. Obama voted for the ethanol mandates.

You decide.

jax33
"Date: Sep 7, 2008 - 9:22 AM EST Hal.
My fixed income is a pension and SS.It was a democrat B.Clinton in the 90's that raised taxes on SS.The main reason I vote republican although I am a independent,is that I have lived for 75 years and seen the dems raise taxes and give my money to people that won't work "

I am 61 and the main reason that I vote democrat is that I have seen republicans give money to people that won't work. I guess you are happy about all the payouts etc to big companies and farmers who don't work? Have you enjoyed the no bid contracts and the safety net for companies that fail. I guess you are hung up on the "welfare mom" most of which does go to rural areas

Hal
Having been in the construction industry as a union member for over 50 years,I know a little bit about no bid contracts.These contracts are let out all the time in private industry as well as govt.The contractor takes the job at a cost plus 10% and he is required to finish the job in a specified time.He can be fined for not finishing it and he can be rewarded if he finishes it ahead of schedule.As to the farmers you are talking about on welfare,they are mega corporation farmers not the average farmer from my state.By the way one of those farmers you are carping about is the big mouth lib Sam Donaldson.

Cynical econ plan
Obama's plan to give every middle income family a thousand dollars is the most cynical plan I ever heard of. Just make out my checks in yuan.
The disbursements may change the statistical reports, but that is all. Average income stats are not about real people, but they do show that Americans are the richest people on earth. We take the guns and butter fallacy off the charts when we expect to wage war and have it all too.

What would make me better would be a purge of the negative nabobs and war rooms. Like Chairman Mao did, we should send all of the effete snobs to the countryside to pitch hay.

loco
"Date: Sep 7, 2008 - 9:39 AM EST Subject: My husband and I are doing well
... we are comfortable. "

How old are you? Where did you get your educations? What work did you do and for whom?

"In our years together,...without government help. "

LOL just a point here you did have government help buy the government stabilizing the economy. Just as many workers today still have jobs because of the government stimulus check. I love the way all of you think you did it all by yourselves That seldom happens. When was the last time a child was found being raised by wolves?

"Today, the average voter seems to vote on whats in it for them."

That actually is how it is supposed to work. That is why the house elections are every two years

" Being in Michigan, I am very aware of what this pathetic state has to offer."

Why are you still there?

"This is hindsight, but my labor attorney husband ...unions."

And I saw it when the Big Three made trash and when they felt they could not compete asia and Europe. The final touch was the US healthcare melt down. Unions? Europe and Japan have very strong unions. Do you know Southwest airlines is unionized? Unions can help build a strong society and economy. Actually corporate decay set in with the demise of unions


loco
"In an international economy, he knew they couldn't sustain the contracts that just "kicked the can" down the road."

That is management not unions

"Democrats say McCain doesn't have ...corporations."

McCain knows littel about economics

" McCain wants ...cost of oil."

Nope he caved and selected a VP fundamentalist conservative like Bush heck she LOVES earmarks LOL. And let's face it McCain was badly beat up and abused in the war, he is fighting cancers and he is 72 when life expectency is 75. We are most likely not discussing a McCain presidency here are we?

"Then we all benefit and jobs are created and government giveaways don't inhibit growth of the economy. "

Deficiet spending is ALL you conservatives have done. Deficit spending IS a government handout

jax33
"Date: Sep 7, 2008 - 10:48 AM EST Subject: Hal
Having been in the construction industry as a union member for over 50 years,I know a little bit about no bid contracts.These contracts are let out all the time ....He can be fined for not finishing it and he can be rewarded if he finishes it ahead of schedule."

No bid and cost plus WOW nice hand out there. Cost plus invites run away spending and the higher the cost the more the entity gets. No bid eliminates competition and increases waste

"As to the farmers you are talking about on welfare,they are mega corporation farmers not the average farmer from my state.By the way one of those farmers you are carping about is the big mouth lib Sam Donaldson. "

THAT is my point mega corps on welfare THAT is worse than the welfare mom in my book. I know the small farmer struggles and earns too little for too much work. That is BECAUSE of corporate welfare how can you compete when the big guys are also getting fat on gov handouts. My congressman by the way was from IA he is good

I could care less if it was Madonna

Not Better Off

I was in a job full-time pulling in $80,000/year in 2001 but was a lay-off victim of the terrorist attacks in September 2001 as the brokerage firm I was employed in technology department coped with the stock market downturn. That began 7-years of turmoil for me as the GOP controlled White House has ignored this economy and about 160-million citizens who live paycheck-to-paycheck.

While out of work, I completed my MBA degree in 2002, graduating top 16th percentile.

Today, I am once again unemployed... having worked just four years over the last seven after being continuously employed full-time for about 24-1/2 years (from 1977 to 2001). Every attempt to differentiate myself from others in the jobs I have held has failed despite continual successes in completing projects & tasks on-time with budget & resource restraints and developing effective business relationships with stakeholders.

These last seven years have been awful, not just for my family & I but others too. Our neighbor has been out of work for two of the last three years. Another neighbor has been out of work five of the last six years and saw their modest $250K home foreclosed

There is no way I'm voting for another four years of GOP control of the White House. The RNC will just need to rebuild itself from the ground-up. That is fair & reasonable request.

Posted in my opinion.


JPK
"Date: Sep 7, 2008 - 10:28 AM EST Subject: Good Question
Since 2006, inflation for food and energy has averaged about 12% (monthly average). I have 7 children, so feeding them is definitely cheaper. Besides demand for energy from other nations skyrocketing, Congress and Bush signed into law in 1995 new Ethanol mandates and subsidies."

LOL that was a conservative Republican congress did Ds aid and abet yes BUT that was your bill. If you really expect change you must vote Obama. McCain, Bush three - no arguments he yeilded to Bush's chorus to select a fundamentalist conservative VP. McCain the maverick is now officially dead

"This has caused the food inflation we now see at the grocery store. McCain did not sign the law and he was critiqued it. Our CO2 emissions have not gone down (easy prediction), and food prices have gone up."

You are correct on pricing the bill was a hand out to farmers nothing else

"Bush will be gone in a few months, but the Dems will still run Congress. Obama voted for the ethanol mandates."

will he again I wonder I know he supports saw grasses etc rather than corn

Wekk now ..,
Obama, Reid and Pelosi will give us stuff. Free stuff to fill our homes and our lives.

McCain and Palin will increase competition, and will encourage us to work harder and try for excellence.

So the real question to ponder is which group will make our country and our lives better in the next four years. The Bush record is mixed. Bush kept us safe but he tried to give us too much free stuff; pharmaceuticals for the old people and lots of Federally directed school testing for the young people. So the question is which is better, free stuff or free enterprise.

Recommend...

What would I do differently? Order banking businesses to suspend all payments (including mortgages) for up to six or nine months when a person's unemployed or on disability before any legal action can begin; order employers who have manufacturing units offshore to either move them onshore within 6-months or face federal income tax rates of 50% of gross sales; order executive compensation reform with two 2-year term limits and a $500,000/year cap (this alone will save businesses billions across most industries); our federal government cease all interest payments to non-domestic debt holders; limit immigration quotas to spouses (and minor-age children) and 250,000 refugees and suspend all other immigration visas which then requires all employers to look within the USA or, better yet, have a federal employment registration from which employers must hire workers at wages the government controls; and have compliant business income taxes be based on pre-dividend distribution, not post-dividend as it is today, even if it creates a double-taxation scenario.

Posted in my opinion.

rob
"Date: Sep 7, 2008 - 9:07 AM EST Subject: Why is Sarah MIA?
Where is Sarah?"

I hear her like minded new friend and hero Cheney is teaaching her all about secure locations

"Don't the American people deserve a chance to hear her answer a few questions from the reporters? After all, McCain does. "

You missed it McCain is now avoiding spontanous press and only appearing in well controlled venues. Bush and Cheney seldom answered press questions McCain is now officially Bush the third so why should he?

"She is a heart beat away from becoming the president and the commander in chief. I think that the voters should be able to assess her before she takes office. "

Mighty uppity aren't you? LOL Conservatives follow they do not question

Better off
My family is much better off than eight years ago. Why? Because my wife and I choose to work hard and our income has improved accordingly. We've helped put 1 daughter thru college and are helping another thru at this time. One of the things we enjoy the most is being in a position to help our kids. Best thing is they have learned sound values and don't "expect" our help or have their hand out.We still live in the home be bought in '91 and don't use the equity to fuel an ATM machine.

Clinton 1996-2000
Clinton's real "achievments" economicallly occured during his 2nd term. Economically, 1993-1995 saw a very large tax increase (1993), increased spending at the expense of the military (the "peace dividend"), and stagnant jobs growth throught 1996. Two big things did occur during his 1st term that had ramifications for his 2nd term. Namely, the passing of NAFTA, but most importantly his allowance for US firms to do buisness with China. Demographically, this period was also the period where the biggest group of wage earners would be entering thier peak earning years.

By 1996, Fortune 1000 firms were pouring money and resources into China. This is especially true of the high tech firms (ie Intel, Cisco, Dell, Oracle, EMC, etc...). Greenspane kept interest rates very low, which gave incentive for investors and fund managers to pour money into high tech equities. Like Real Estate a decade later, there was a feeding frenzy in High Tech stocks. This spread to the old Brick and Mortar companies as well. In 1998, Clinton passed Congress's Capital Gains Tax Cut, and the bubble reached its peak in 2000 right before Greenspan popped it.

From 1996-2000 the Treasury collected nearly $1 trillion in unexpected capital gains -namely from the new rich would cashed in thier stock options. For 4 years 14 million new jobs (mainly in the tech and financial services sectors) were created. The budget was "balanced", and Clinton got the glory.

By Jan 2001 it was all over. The Telecom sector was in meltdown; Microsoft lost its anti-trust suit; AT@T and Global Crossings alone shed 50,000 jobs. Even before 9/11, nearly $2 trillion dollars in equities were lost as well as 3 million jobs.



And here's ol' donahooey...

Again just posting one wild accusation and lie after another...

Amazing how his sick little mind just dreams up the strangest things to post...

Of course, donahooey doesn't mention that not only did slick willie LIE every chance he got, he even shook his finger at us while doing it!





rdk - stop with the lies
"Date: Sep 7, 2008 - 11:39 AM EST Subject: Wekk now ..,
Obama, Reid and Pelosi will give us stuff. Free stuff to fill our homes and our lives."

Wrong Obama promised hard work and less didn't you hear his speech. I know conservatives don't know hard choices but watch you may learn something

"McCain and Palin will increase competition, and will encourage us to work harder and try for excellence."

Ahhh yes we now can work more hours for less LOL and there goes the family even further down the tubes. All they really offer is accelerated decay of our nation

"... So the question is which is better, free stuff or free enterprise. "

free stuff? explain please. By Free do you mean enough pay for a days work so you can be with your family rather than the second or third job? Look at the numbers there is no single area where we now clearly lead the world. You want to continue our journey to the second or third world? If you do not it is time for change time for Obama

1. al qaeda is a diminished threat
2. Does anyone wakeup worried about a terrorist attack? America is an expert in dealing with terrorism domestically and militarily.
3.Iraq is no longer a threat. Since Bush 41,43 and Clinton all bombed Iraq, how do you make the case it wasn't?

The bottom line is that we are safer than we were 8 yrs ago.

Tim
"Date: Sep 7, 2008 - 11:53 AM EST Better off
My family is much better off than eight years ago. Why? Because my wife and I choose to work hard and our income has improved accordingly."

What do you do for a living?

" We've helped put 1 daughter thru college and are helping another thru at this time. One of the things we enjoy the most is being in a position to help our kids. Best thing is they have learned sound values and don't "expect" our help or have their hand out."

Public or private colleges? Gosh how do I break this to you neither do mine but yes I do have a daughter finishing her doctorate at a major public university so I guess ahe is getting some help

"We still live in the home be bought in '91 and don't use the equity to fuel an ATM machine."

We have lived in 32 houses in 40 years of marriage and yes we own our home

donahooey: You mean hard work
like "Michelle's Boot Camps For Radicals"

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=3054206551 86700

"By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Thursday, September 04, 2008 4:20 PM PT
Election '08: Democrats' reintroduction of militant Michelle Obama in Denver was supposed to show her softer side. But it only highlighted a radical part of her resume: Public Allies.

BD Series: The Audacity Of Socialism

"Barack Obama was a founding member of the board of Public Allies in 1992, resigning before his wife became executive director of the Chicago chapter of Public Allies in 1993. Obama plans to use the nonprofit group, which he features on his campaign Web site, as the model for a national service corps. He calls his Orwellian program, "Universal Voluntary Public Service."

"Big Brother had nothing on the Obamas. They plan to herd American youth into government-funded reeducation camps where they'll be brainwash ed into thinking America is a racist, oppressive place in need of "social change."

Ranger29
"Date: Sep 7, 2008 - 12:05 PM EST Subject: Hal...if I were you the
internals of all the polls...Gallup/Rasmussen/Hart-luntz/Zogby would really worry me.

Obama is losing the change issue....and it is getting narrowed to a "policy change" issue which is notwhere the independents are going."

Changing as we speak but how do you feel about McCain caving completely for an extreme conservative?

Shelby
I'll look at yours if you look at mine. LMFAO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R20pQK5KO2E

LMAO hic! (not used with seatbuffers permission, because I will NEVER ask for it!)

Biden shoots Obambi in the foot.
What The Dem VP pick has to say about Obambi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R20pQK5KO2E

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Free Ramos and Compean

Anne
post #104

Yup, and with the “other one” it sure gives your scroll wheel a workout. Wonder if I can sue for a new mouse. LMFAO

LMAO hic! (not used with seatbuffers permission, because I will NEVER ask for it!)

Biden shoots Obambi in the foot.
What The Dem VP pick has to say about Obambi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R20pQK5KO2E

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Free Ramos and Compean

Anne
"Date: Sep 7, 2008 - 12:20 PM EST donahooey: You mean hard work
like "Michelle's Boot Camps For Radicals""

Did you miss the word voluntary?

Ranger29
"Date: Sep 7, 2008 - 12:31 PM EST Subject: Plus Hal...I want aleader
BHO is as bad a leader as Mr. Bush is...neither cold lead flies to warm human excrement."

McCain the maverick is dead all hail McCain, Bush the third. In this campaign, John McCain betrayed everything that identified him as unique. This elderly war hero served his country well but his time should be past. John McCain is no longer fit to lead.

Ranger29
"Date: Sep 7, 2008 - 12:29 PM EST Hal Donahue ....I have two major concerns for the POTUS. A well thought out tough foreign policy which wins in Iraq and Afland...and a administration at home which completely reforms the federal government to allow it to operate in this century unshackled from the forms of the past. In McCain/Palin...I have two TR's."

Don't insult TR. Palin is a Rush baby nothing more. McCain is tired and confused. There is no change coming from either only noise.

ClaireSolt 10:55 AM EST
"Obama's plan to give every middle income family a thousand dollars is the most cynical plan I ever heard of."

It's my understanding that the governor of Alaska raised taxes on oil companies tremendously when they began making larger profits from the increase in the price of oil. She then used that money to give every Alaskan (not family, individual) $1,200.

Where does that rank on your cynical list?

Rob in NJ wrote:
Subject: Why is Sarah MIA?
'Where is Sarah?

Don't the American people deserve a chance to hear her answer a few questions from the reporters? After all, McCain does.

She is a heart beat away from becoming the president and the commander in chief. I think that the voters should be able to assess her before she takes office.'

Last week we heard from the feminazis and lib media that she shouldn't take the job because of her family responsibilities. Now 3 days after the RNC you are wondering where she is.

She's probably up in Wasilla doing the damn laundry for six people. Don't panic, she'll be back soon enough to plunge the stake into the lib hearts.

ITMT, is Barack Hussein Obama Barry Soetoro Dunham really an illegal alien?

carlos
"Date: Sep 7, 2008 - 12:15 PM EST 1. al qaeda is a diminished threat..."

LMAO you mean the same Al Q that is threatening BOTH Afghanistan and NUCLEAR Pakistan? You mean the same Al Q thriving under Osama nearly seven years after attacking the US a slaying nearly 3,000 people? That Al Q.

Hey carlos why are you not in the military?

We are all better off...
We are all better off than we were four years ago, because we are alive. We have NOT been attacked since 9/11. Had our troops not killed 20,000 or more terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan since 2001, some of them may have come here and planted bombs, or posioned water supplies, or spread biological agents.

Had a President Kerry simply withdrawn troops from Iraq, that would have signaled the terrorists that we are afraid of them, and are willing to let them advance their cause.

I'll look at the glass as half full, and thank our troops for saving lives here in America.

Obama fans can welcome the 98-pound weakling and his socialist schemes. I'll take McCain and our Republic any day.

If Obama wins, he will serve one term and be the most hated President in history. He will destroy the economy and the American way of life. He may end up the first black Democrat President, but he'll also be the last...

Reasons why at:

http://www.colony14.net

Bob Munck
"Date: Sep 7, 2008 - 12:41 PM EST ClaireSolt 10:55 AM EST
"Obama's plan to give every middle income family a thousand dollars is the most cynical plan I ever heard of."

It's my understanding that the governor of Alaska raised taxes on oil companies tremendously when they began making larger profits from the increase in the price of oil. She then used that money to give every Alaskan (not family, individual) $1,200.

Where does that rank on your cynical list? "

LOL right there with her increasing taxes for a hockey rink and what was it getting what was it a $1,000 US for each citizen in her town. Her friend and endorsee Sen stevens helped her get them

Munck wrote:
'It's my understanding that the governor of Alaska raised taxes on oil companies tremendously when they began making larger profits from the increase in the price of oil. She then used that money to give every Alaskan (not family, individual) $1,200.

Where does that rank on your cynical list?'

Alaska has been doing that since Sarah was in grade school. Only the amount has changed as the price went up. Check your facts, then criticize.

Libtards unite
Like my friend, Loyal Democrat, let me address the coming change that comes from those that are what we've been waiting for. We will finally have a common sense tax that makes sure those 40% that pay 90% of the taxes will pay the whole enchilada. And if they cut my job so what. I can draw fed unemployment for life through the "Great One's" Compassion Fund for Displaced Workers. And along with all the trillions required for the rest of the "Rising Ocean Reduction Plan" that covers defense cuts, all environmental spending, energy taxes and prop-ups and all other community spending requirements we will just go back to that golden goose 40%. Oh they're out of business. Hmmm. Joe, Joe? I thought you learned about economics over 35 years?

Another Classic Piece by Will
Perhaps there needs to be a debate board for people who want to discuss things unrelated to the original article. George Will asks a fairly simple question. The question, are you better off, has always been a somewhat cynical attempt to get people to vote based on their circumstance alone. This election is about the next 4 years, not the last 8 years. Because we live in such a great country, I can't think of any 4 year period when I wasn't better off than the same time 4 years earlier. This year is no different. I want more people in America to enjoy the same quality of life growth.

Wow! A thread dominated by
Hal and Ranger Robert!


Now I know where the TH Village idiots congregate.


I don't know what convention you guys
watched, but the one I saw nominated John McCain for President, ot Sarah Palin.

As soon as the ink is dry on inauguration day I suspect the real McCain will return after his out of body campaign.

He will no longer have to kiss the behinds of religious conservatives and social retrogrades and if Palin becomes restless he can give her a moose to dress.

McCain has never been transformed from anything and thirty years of congress and personal history is not going to disappear.

Palin is about getting votes, any way, any how, and McCain's people understand how voters, raised on american movies, gameboys, and American Idol shows will react with emotion to what is essentially superb political theater.

As for Alaska, they have pletny of moeny to hand out to citizens, and when their drilling dream is done they will be among the richest state in the union. Of COURSE they want to drill ANWR. wouldn't you, if your state was the biggest oil supplier in the union?

However, I wouldn't hold my breath that this is ever going to happen, since Palin will not be president, McCain will, if elected.


Ranger29
Date: Sep 7, 2008 - 12:52 PM EST Subject: Hal ....Leadership is not a litany of issues nor is it a check off list of programs...it is 9/10's personality."

That was McCain, maverick now we have McCain, Bush the third. In this campaign, the elderly McCain worshipped before the once despised altars of the religious right. In this campaign, old John bowed before the extreme conservative fringe of society represented by the talk show mafia. In this campaign, John McCain betrayed everything that identified him as unique.

"BHO is a snob and Average Joe a guy who has been wrong on every issue."

Oh you agree with McCain that we did the right thing invading Iraq now? You now think we should have invaded Iraq with only 100,000 troops? Have you sold yourself that much for McCain? Obama's story exemplifies all that is great in American Society -- THE American dream. The conservatives successfully managed to question the patriotism and courage of a wounded war hero; why not attack the candidate that is an icon for the American dream?

"You folks never could figure out why Ronaldus was as popular as he was...and both McCain and palin are about to shove that right down the same pipe."

Then second world here we come....

"...go see the internals."

I am looking at internals right now LOL

Randy
One of my neighbors lost his home and at the age of 68 he and his wife have gone from a suburban ranch with a view to a cheap motel where they have been hired as managers.

Somehow, I don't think they feel better off. And they are not expecting a Republican win to bring them anything different in the next four years.

Anyway,
How is it you all seem to understand and know Sarah Palin so well? I haven't seen her say anything that wasn't written for her over a three day period. She's supposed to be smart, and tough but her handlers won't let the press anywhere near her, and won't let her loose alone in public for even 5 minutes.

Oh donahooey: Know how easy it is to

remove the word "voluntary?" Watch!


"Universal Voluntary Public Service."


"Universal Public Service."

Marxism isn't into "volunteer" dude... As a Marxist, he'll soon make it "mandatory," you know... for the "common good."


To Hal Donohue re 8:31 AM Post
1. We were right to remove Saddam from power. To justify your opposition to the Iraq War, you have to justify the position that if Saddam were still in power, the world would not be worse off. WRONG. We removed from power a murderous dictator who had thumbed his nose at the international community when violating 17 UN arms resolutions and who during his reign used WMDs and engaged in torture and killings of his own people. We ended the lines of cooperation that Saddan had with al Qaeda; Baghdad had been al Zarqari’s base of operations before the Iraq War; Saddam was a financier of suicide bombers. We ended the risk that Saddam would use WMDs against us: those WMDs went to Syria according to Iraqi Air Force General Sada, Saddam had the raw materials for more WMDs -- 550 metric tons of yellow cake uranium from Saddam's stockpile was a few months ago shipped out and Saddam did have yellow viable plans for a nuclear weapons; and we ended the Oil-for-Food corruption at the UN. We have propelled the Iraqi people to a democratically adopted Constitution and democratically elected government; the “purple finger” will always be a symbol for the courage of the Iraqi people in embracing democracy.

2. You say that McCain has done little in the area of foreign policy. LOL. McCain was the first proponent of the surge in Iraq and is the leading expert in Congress. What alternative universe do yo live in?

3. Obama is no FDR, who had been an Assistant Secretary of the Navy before POTUS. McCain may be an FDR. FDR and McCain both have given a "I hate war" speech. For those of us who have personally seen and talked to McCain, he is very healthy.

4. Your statement about hoping my sons have a better grip on reality is a stupid insult. You are the one who does not have a grip on reality. Obama does not have the experience, knowledge and wisdom to be Commander in Chief, whereas McCain is the most qualified person to be Commander in Chief in a long time.

To Randy re 1:03 PM Post
No, Randy, Will's article is not a "classic." In fact, Will has frequently been off base in the last year. See my 7:09 AM post.

This is rich
"Obama's story exemplifies all that is great in American Society -- THE American dream"

Yes, this highly-qualified community organizer, hooked up with a kook elite, whitey-hater reverend and a monied crook to get an Ill state senator and then Ill federal senator and spent that entire career running for president. Give me a break, you guys are so clueless.

Lets look back farther
Why just look back 8 years, lets look back to the beginning of this country. I read this the other day.... Going back to the Revolutionary war:

Conservatives wanted to stay loyal to England.

Conservatives wanted to make President a life-long appointment.

Conservatives fought against bringing in slave-free states without slave-holding states.

Conservatives fought for the 3/5 rule that counted slaves as partial humans.

Conservatives fought for secession from the Union because they wanted to keep slaves.

Conservatives fought against women"s suffrage.

Conservatives fought for prohibition.

Conservatives wanted to keep us out of WWI and WWII.

Conservatives created Jim Crow laws.

Conservatives lynched blacks routinely.

Conservatives fought against integration.

Conservatives put up "whites only" signs.

Conservatives fought against the civil rights act.

Conservatives wanted to stay in Viet Nam.

Conservatives eliminated state-run asylums and put those with mental health problems out in the street.

Conservatives brought you homelessness and huge deficits.

Conservatives fight to destroy unions and back corporations.


Conservatives want to keep gay Americans second class citizens by denying them the same rights the rest of us enjoy.

Conservatives deny Global Climate Change and fight ANY environmental legislation.

Conservatives fought against Social Security. Conservatives want to teach Intelligent Design in schools.

Conservatives want to do away with the education cabinet post.

Do we really want another conservative in charge of this country? We can't afford to.

Well, then, Hondo

Regarding your comment: "Do we really want another conservative in charge of this country? We can't afford to."

No worries for you, then, since regardless of who wins there won't be one.


Hate to rain on people's parade
but I am better off now than eight years ago. My income has doubled and my investments have been fruitful.

However, I do not give credit to government, with the exception of tax cuts. I give credit to my husband and myself. We worked hard, made good choices even when difficult to do.

Dan and Pat: You have exactly the beat of it!

One Dolphin Fan: You need to rethink your attitude since it is very poor. It reflects in job interviews and I have seen it far too many times. You are quick to blame and loathe to accept responsibility. Perhaps you should also examine what extreme liberalism has done to the very state in which we live because it is affecting you and your job search tremendously.

A Brilliant Article...
...by Mr. Will. Right on the money!

What a shame that 40+ years of pervasive liberalism and revisionist teaching has produced such poisoned perspectives of historical facts as are on display on this thread.

The truth is, every threat, every evil, every perversion that freedom loving people throughout the CIVILIZED world face at this moment in history, is a result of 40 years of rampant liberalism and it's ugly off-spring political-correctness.

If we were to go back in history, we would find that even the so-called icons of the democrat party would, by todays standards, be more conservative than either McCain or Bush.

Wow, Hondo,
Who would a thunk it? Republicans are really liberals and Democrats conservative. Huh!

Better off?
I suppose I am somewhat better off than I was four years ago. That however, isnt the question to ask. The real question is "Will I be better off in the next four years?".
Billions in Iraq; bank failures; Freddie and Fannie now dead; public companies go bankrupt and leave 50% pensions on the floor; gas @ $4.00+ a gal; roads in disrepair; food prices skyrocketing; and on and on and on..
Americans can weather a storm; just not one that lasts for years at a time. And this has been a storm that we're going to, at some time, have to pay for.
And then George, even you will know the answer to your question....

Chuckl
What have you asked of your Congress? What will they do based on their track record of the last two years or does that matter? You've listened to a steady diet of W is Hitler, Cheney is whoever, bash bash whiz whiz oh what a relief it is, war is lost and now you have the dumbest man in the senate (VP candidate) saying the troop pullout is based on Oblaba's plan. Unbelievable! Vote out dims and rinos if you have any sense at all.

What I like about this thread
Is that in less than 24 hours the number of posts up to this point will be cut almost in half when the mods delete Wobbie the magic Ranger's rubbish.
And any posts Wobbie makes after this one will also be gone.

Then all we'll be stuck reading is the nonsense of Hal Doofass and the other libdolts.

So Wobbie, how badly did YOUR HEAD explode when McCain picked a Middle Class American with real values, aka a CONSERVATIVE, or in your words, a "far rightwing nutcase" as his running mate?

ENQUIRING minds want to know.

Phil Byler
"Date: Sep 7, 2008 - 1:24 PM EST To Hal Donohue re 8:31 AM Post
1. We were right to remove Saddam from power. "

And let the man and organization who slaughtered nearly 3,000 people on our soil go free???? If you believe that as smart then I am just speechless

"..To justify your opposition to the Iraq War, you have to justify the position that if Saddam were still in power, the world would not be worse off."

I doubt strongly he would still be in power if we had successfully destroyed the Taliban and Al Q in Afghanstan. You have to justify he would have been

" WRONG. We removed from power a murderous dictator ...."

Yawn was THAT worth all our dead, wounded and treasure? He is one of many why did we stop?

"We ended the lines of cooperation that Saddan had with al Qaeda; Baghdad had been al Zarqari’s base of operations before the Iraq War;"

This is a lie NE Iraq was Not controlled by Saddam

" Saddam was a financier of suicide bombers. "

Wrong again. Saddam paid pensions to families of Palistinian suicide bombers attacking Israel and I suspect the Saudis do also


Phil B
"We ended the risk that Saddam would use WMDs against us: those WMDs went to Syria according to Iraqi Air Force General Sada,"

Completely discredited by CIA et al

" Saddam had the raw materials for more WMDs -- 550 metric tons of yellow cake uranium from Saddam's stockpile was a few months ago shipped out and Saddam did have yellow viable plans for a nuclear weapons; "

Under UN lock and key

"You say that McCain has done little in the area of foreign policy. LOL. McCain was the first proponent of the surge in Iraq and is the leading expert in Congress. What alternative universe do yo live in? "

McCain supported the invasion and thought only 100,000 troops should invade

"3.....For those of us who have personally seen and talked to McCain, he is very healthy."

I thought you were a lawyer are you a doctor too?

4.....whereas McCain is the most qualified person to be Commander in Chief in a long time. "

McCain is no longer fit to lead the Palin pick shows he surrendered to the extremists

Boys and Girls can you say free markets?
The Bush admin has just announced it is taking over Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac making the US gov't the holder of half of the mortgages in this country.

If Obama is a Marxist, apparently Bush is a Marxist AND a hypocrite rolled into one.

The dim congress
got in talking ethics and earmarks and have been worse than Republicans. Fact. In addition they've been trying to lose a war based on politics rather than facts on the ground. If anyone takes them seriously they're either incredibly stupid or heading for the cliff as a good lemming. If you can't acknowledge that get in the big bag of divisive, no credibility libs aka dims led by BO, Pelosi and Reid and get ready to be dropped in the river. McCain needs to say I've been part of the problem. I've let government get bigger and bigger with no intent of performing more efficiently just keep making laws that throw more money at it. We are sick and tired of the bureaucracy and '94 can happen again. We've got less than 60 days. The vast lib conspiracy is not going to happen. Not on our watch.

This is like such a Soap Opera
Should be called: "Liberals In Denial"

Woody from Iowa

Hawkeye58 1:00 PM EST
"Alaska has been doing that since Sarah was in grade school. ... Check your facts, then criticize."

Palin more than DOUBLED taxes on the oil companies, from $5.1 billion to $11 billion. If that had been going on since she was in grade school, the oil companies would be paying ... (let's see, two to the power of ...) $23 trillion dollars a year.

Despite that huge windfall, she continued to lobby for and accept $1.75 from the federal government for every $1.00 her state pays in taxes. Including the money for the Bridge to Nowhere.


No one seems to be commenting on the Republican nationalization of a large chunk of the mortgage industry.

Pat comment 12:51 a.m.
Pat from Arizona and anybody else dumb enough to swallow your comment.

“I really don’t know where to begin.

The DOW hit its highest point ever (14,000). It didn't start coming down drastically until the banking problem started.”

You don’t know where to begin huh?

That really was a pitiful response.

In 1992 the DOW averages were at 3,172.41. They increased to 11,492.12 by the year 2000. They almost quadrupled. And that was with dollars that had real currency, not the ridiculously weak Bush dollars.

It’s been a mess ever since 2000. The DOW is supposed to set record highes frequently as it did in the 90s. You’re supposed to get a return on your money. Cyclical ups and downs are supposed to take place around a line that goes up and to the right, not a horizontal line or a line going down and to the right.

The DOW closed and 11,326.32 in August of 2008. A net loss from 2000.

What exactly are you smoking to write a ridiculous comment claiming that this is an acceptable stock market.

Name any other 8 year period in United States history other than the great depression where I would make more money putting my cash in a checking account instead of investing in the averages.

Shelby
I know that being brainwashed allows you to claim innocence by reason of insanity but stop and think for a moment, and analyze, something you don't seem to be very good at: At conservative websites you read positive messages and at the one you leave us, you read nothing but vindictive innuendoes directed at good people. Is it wrong to place your country and family first? Is individual responsibility such a bad thing?
To the left bloggers who spread diatribes that aren't even true, perhaps you should do more soul-searching and mirror watching.
Sarah Palin is what is good with America. A woman who made her life, not through a silver spoon, or appeasing dishonest people, but self-motivation. She went to 6 different colleges because like most of us, money was an issue.
When she saw dishonesty, she decided to change it, and when we as the people of the best nation ever, are given this gift from God, we should embrace it, and not attack it.
By spreading lies and untruths you reveal your inner self, and boy, am I happy and greatful that I am not you! And you want her to come face to face with the media, the ones who are spreading the lies, when all our lives we have been told, you are who you are by the company you keep! Maybe you should find some better friends!

RR spews:
For the right wing it is the hot button issues on abortion etc.

Funny I remember you saying he was going to win without his base. Are you now saying he could not?

LMAO hic! (not used with seatbuffers permission, because I will NEVER ask for it!)

Biden shoots Obambi in the foot.
What The Dem VP pick has to say about Obambi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R20pQK5KO2E

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.htm l
Free Ramos and Compean



Not at all
The true measure of "better off," and which is never taken into account in the "better off" calculations, is future opportunity. It is bad enough that an American's assets have lost most of the hard-won value gained in the last few years, and that he is four years older.

It is the fact that opportunities are closing left and right. We have more government regulation and interference, not less, with concomitant capital and profitable opportunities leaving or disappearing. It is getting harder and harder to work past it.

Is the starving caveman who sells all his teeth for meat better off than he was before? He has the meat; you can even quantity it.

bryce1 and Bob Munck
I am not thrilled with the government taking over Fannie and Freddie however remember they are doing it at the urging of Congress.

Congress is run by who?

I think this is a no win scenario no matter what is done.

Lolo1 3:39 PM EST
"I am not thrilled with the government taking over Fannie and Freddie however remember they are doing it at the urging of Congress."

In what sense? Congress isn't in session, and hasn't been for quite a long time.

The mortgage crisis is a flat-out failure of unfettered capitalism, and the Republican administration is using the principles of socialism to try to repair the damage.

How GOP stole $11B from Americans

To keep their Chinese and Russian masters happy

Read..

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Federal officials on Sunday unveiled an extraordinary takeover of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, putting the government in charge of the twin mortgage giants and the $5 trillion in home loans they back.

The government said it will recapitalize Fannie and Freddie over time by making purchases of senior preferred stock. The existing preferred shares will continue to trade, the government said, inflicting losses most notably on the regional banks that hold them.

The prospect of a virtual wipeout of existing Fannie and Freddie preferred shares could lead to declines Monday in the shares of regional banks and major insurers that hold the shares.

Virtual Wipeout for Common people who hold the FNM and FRE stocks. Bonanza for Chinese and Russians.

When will the GOP folks will extricate their heads from the asses of Chinese , Big Oil and Russians?

Shameless GOP is asking for 4 more years? They will get spit on their faces come Nov

Kevin
It's all the GOP, despite the Dems being in control of Congress for several years now, and quite a bit more in the last half century when these institutions were established.

Eleven whole billion? The libs will dispense with that in three days of social spending. I don't mean to belittle the amount, but by comparison, there are some really big fish to fry out there and this ain't one of 'em.

If "the GOP" goads the Chinese or Russians into paying the $11B, they are the ones stuck with some risk, not me Mr tax payer (and I am a tax payer.)

Am I better off? Personally, no. The Presidency is about what they'll do for me directly (like purchase my loyalty with $1000) but how they'll maintain the federal State and whether that is sustainable.

I'll take care of myself (and family) and we'll do fine. Please don't get in the way of *my* recovery.

Ranger29
"Date: Sep 7, 2008 - 3:04 PM EST Subject: Hal Donahue LOL
you are arguing history (and I agree with some of your arguments)...when the American people are concerned about the future."

The past is prologue

"he far left and right are very similar. Abortion policy in this Country isnt going to change...but if youever want to distract the right wing ofthe GOP bring it up. "

I am doing so now locally. The bishop et al are actually conspiring with the left to keep abortions high just look at the UN stats I guess they all are making to much money LOL

"or the left it is the decision to go into Iraq."

Hmmm no so sure... except in terms of impeachment which I do not support. Bush the torturer is for the Hague. I know you disagree but watch

"ave you figured out why Joe Biden voted for the war?"

Not a clue my guess is the one on one lies Bush told but hey he voted

"McCain's picking Palin is the smartest political manuever since WM picked TR in 1900..."

LMAO all I know is cash and Hillary females are rolling in... nice try to divert from the issues or McCain's age though. With her McCain desparately pitched back into the fight with low airspeed, altitude and ideas...watch

"I got two mavericks on the ticket, the rightwing is falling in line and the left wing is imploding."

Nat at all LOL McCain is now Bush III he buried maverick when he selected Rush's candidate Palin

"it is a great time for me."

Enjoy it while you can -- grin

Are Americans Better Off?
This is such a good article. There are two questions to ponder, though. Do we believe that our country is better off today or do we believe that we, as individuals, are better off. I think that the two are intertwined and each person must seek balance because there will always be people who believe that they were better off in the past and those who believe that they are better off today because of the variants. Obviously, there are many fears in the world today that affect our country as people worry about their jobs, gas, food, natural disasters, health insurance, social security, education, immoraltiy, sexual promiscuity, millions of abortions, and now, terrorism, and kicking God out of the country, plus more. As individuals, we are each unique and different and some people have physical or emotional problems to deal with while others learn how to cope with them, but we create many of our own problems setting our expectations too high only to be disappointed rather than taking one step at a time. Aksim we can be side swiped by corruption and injustices, as well. So, there aren't any black and white answers, but it is definitely an article that people should think about and explore as well as use to challenge one's mind for answers.

We Get It!!!
The question "Are You Better Off..." of course, depending on venue means different thing. In the one offered in a political sense, my answer would be easy....No. There is so much crap that is whirling around, some of it we are not aware of, and the dough brains are sparing over subjects that just do not, by any stretch, have any consequences as to our Country's future. So, I'm hopping a new rail line, the John McCain, Sarah Palin bus!

Rose
"Do we believe that our country is better off today or do we believe that we, as individuals, are better off. I think that the two are intertwined and each person must seek balance"

This is fine. But ol George seems to be implying that Americans cannot differentiate between a Presidential candidate asking a question regarding "better off" and a philosophical question about our life-long happiness.

Americans are fully capable of discerning the difference. And the idea that Presidential candidates cannot ask the question because it is too vague or that the American people cannot understand the question has different meanings in different contexts is a bunch of nonsense.

number44
"Date: Sep 7, 2008 - 4:58 PM EST Hondo
Putting aside your absurd caricature of conservatism, let me say this: you have nothing to fear. McCain is not a conservative. "

Nope but Palin is....

Ranger 29 (bonehead) & Hal Doofass
I see Wobbie the Wanger is off to war again. My what a pathetic life you must lead. You can't use your own name on Town Hall, your posts disappear as fast as you post them, & Bugs Bunny had more military experience than you'll ever hope to have. Come back to Earth & rejoin reality. Get a grip man! Why don't you & Hal Doofass Drunkahue go into business together. You guys could make a killing in the fertilizer industry. There's no overhead & nothing but profits to be made when the manure is self produced. Between you & Hal the eternally pickled, the fetilizer production will be bottomless. Think about it.

To Hal D re 2:55 PM Post
Your 2:55 PM post in supposed reply to my 1:24 PM post shows you to be an apologist for a murderous thug dictator in Saddam.

1. You pose a false choice between removing Saddam from power and catching Obama. Do you think we know where Obama is? And if we knew, what makes you think that we would not have the resources to go get him? It would be easy compared to fighting two big fronts in WW II.

2. Your notion that Saddam would not be in power if we had destroyed the Taliban in Afghanistan is baseless and indeed moronic. Who would have toppled Saddam in Iraq? What's more, we almost did destroy the Taliban in Afghanistan.

3. You need to quote my entire statement on what we accomplished by removing Saddam. That is not a yawn; that is protecting our country.

4. It is not a lie that Saddam had lines of cooperation with al Qaeda. The two entered into an agreement contemplating arms transfers. Try reading Lawrence Wright's history of the rise of al Qaeda in "The Looming Towers."

5. Your own statement shows that I am correct that Saddam financed suicide bombers -- by paying pensions to the families of the bombers, Saddam "dfinanced" suicide bombers. Njo one has questioned this point.

Mr. George Will
I don't think I know anyone that lives by their calculator. Perhaps that comes from being like Scrooge. Having too much money and finding enjoyment in counting it.

All I do know is we cannot vote with our calculators and the value of our stock. We have to vote for liberty and justice, for upholding our Bill of Rights for Truth and the future of morality.

I am better off
because I didn't have to endure Goofy Gore or Hairy Kerry. I am much better off. The country is much better off. Now to get rid of Nazi Nancy and Hole-in-the-Head Harry would be lagniappe.

Ken
Your response to those whom I scroll past is hilarious!

To Hal D re 2:56 PM Post
Your 2:56 PM post is no better than your 2:55 PM post.

1. General Sada's account is corroborated by translated Saddam government documents. The CIA of Valerie Plame did not discredit anything. What's more, Saddam most certainly did have the raw materials to make more WMDs, and those raw materials were not under UN lock and key. One of the primary reasons we removed Saddam was that he kept excluding UN arms inspectors and would not comply with UN arms resolutions. That was a problem because, among other things, Saddam did go uranium shopping in Africa. Try reading the Congressional authorization for the war that most all Democrats, including Clinton and Kerry, voted for; you might learn the official statement of reasons why we did remove Saddam from power.

2. McCain supported the invasion, and only 100,000 were needed to topple Saddam. More troops, however, were needed to secure the country, a fact which McCain realized when constantly visiting Iraq and talking to Captains and other officers and which McCain said for years before Bush implemented what is called the surge.

3. I am a lawyer. I am also a financial contributor to McCain and an attendee at McCain campaign functions. I was a Delegate to the Republican National Convention.

4. The Palin pick was brilliant. Palin is a reformer maverick Republican Governor who drives left wing nut jobs such as you even more nuts.

Hal
We are in a war against Terrorism. Iraq was just one stop. THis will not be over for a very long time. Do you understand. I don't know how many times George W has made this clear.

We don't have any alternatives. Perhaps one day certain people will stop funding it.

Are you better off?
I am a conservative and I do believe in appreciating the most important things in life like family and experiences over things and money, BUT for people who are living paycheck to paycheck or are in severe debt and worrying that they may lose their house or car, or can't send their kids to college, you still have to think about "if you are better off". With the slowdown in the economy don't think we are right now and it is a grave concern. I fear the Dems will tax the country into a severe recession, whereas the Republicans philosophy of trickle down economics has worked. What do the foolish Dems think brought about this economic prosperity we have had these past 6-7 years? Low taxes, free trade, and reasonable gas prices. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.

Are You Better Off Than Before?
This is a trick question. Kind of like a parlor game.

The answer reflects more on the individual than the world.

No matter the situation, what have you done to better yourself? If you live in America and it has not improved, you have more to answer than anything or any others can contribute.

Mc Cain Ad Idea
Start: Showing Obama saying the standard liberal prescriptions made during this Denver speech.

Overlay: Carter making esstentially the same statements.

Video: Gas lines, charts of interest rates, hostage crisis, etc.

Then show commentators saying it is the same old democratic ideas.

Video: Liberman, Clinton, Biden all saying McCain is better than Obama.

I approve this message.

Hal Donahue Thinks Words Scare People
Hal Donahue offers as to a country being corraled, "Under UN lock and key "

Get serious.

A UN lock and key is like using chalk to draw a line in the sand. It does more to entertain the wild beast than restrict it.

It sounds to me...
...like everyone that is better off became that way throuhg hard work on thier parts. The people that claim to be worse off are due to a lack of said hard work.

One gentleman stated a couple of times that he is retired and living on a fixed income of less than $50,000. Who exactly would he like to balme for that?

I am 47 and have maxed out my IRA since I was 25. My wife saves in her 401K. I have a union job with a pension. Is it luck that I am doing so well? No. I scrimp and save. I buy used cars and live in a modest home. I budget my money and watch where I spend. I'm not a miser, I take vacations and enjoy myself, but I save for the things I want and don't buy on credit. That is why I am better off. The government had NOTHING to do with it. If any of you jokers have some fantasy about Obama making your lives better, raining cash and goodies on you, think again. No matter who gets in office, if you want to succeed, you better start working at it yourself.

Are you better off.
I and my husband are much like Thasic and his wife, we don't live off credit and are pretty frugal with our money. With that said I still find that I have less money for the extras and it takes more time to save for the things that we want. So I don't think that I am better off, my money doesn't go as far.

Observation
I've read most of the posts here, (gawd I gotta get a life - ha.)

One thing I've observed is that the lib's posting here are paranoid about their guy getting elected, now that Gov. Palin has be introduced.

I guess this sort of echos what Matthews said to Olbermann the other night after Palin gave her speech in St. Paul. Matthews referring to Republicans, said something like "They might have a chance in November." Olbermann was speechless. (when has that ever happened?)

I also wonder if any of the lib posters here receive funding from a George Soros entity?

Mac Moore, Thasic
You hit well on a point, in America one still has to account to themselves, not to mother gov't. I already said before I am not better off than 4 years ago. My fault, honestly. I intend to improve that and fully expect to. My doing, with the backing of my family and some friends.

That America is still largely free we can say that. If it was less free, I'd have some