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Friday, July 04, 2008
George Will :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Valuable Self-Validating Tradition
by George Will
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Do you feel the leaked information from a global warming alarmist organization is meaningful?



MECKLENBURG COUNTY, N.C. -- The impatient patriots here had splendidly short fuses in 1775. Those who tilled the startlingly red clay or who lived in the town named for George III's wife Charlotte might have been bemused had they foreseen the annual hoopla that commemorates July 4, 1776.

What occurred that day in Philadelphia might have been a Declaration of Independence, but the first such was enacted here on May 20, 1775. Presbyterians, meaning most Mecklenburgers, were incensed by Anglican meddling from London, such as the Vestry and Marriage Acts of 1769, which imposed fines on Presbyterian ministers who conducted marriage ceremonies. Marriage as a political issue is not just a recent phenomenon.

On May 19, 1775, the day before the Mecklenburg convention met to act on such grievances, a rider arrived with news from Massachusetts about the April bloodshed at Lexington and Concord. The next day, Mecklenburg's convention declared:

"We the citizens of Mecklenburg County do hereby dissolve the political bands which have connected us to the mother country. ... We do hereby declare ourselves a free and independent people ... to the maintenance of which independence, we solemnly pledge to each other our mutual cooperation, our lives, our fortunes, and our most sacred honor."

Thus did a settlement on the fringe of the British Empire declare war on that empire. It used language -- note, especially, the last nine words -- that is echoed in the 1776 declaration, for reasons explained in a new book, "The 4th of July and the Founding of America," by Peter de Bolla of King's College, Cambridge. He is fascinated by Americans' fascination with the fact, such as it is, that their country had, as few nations can claim, an "originative moment." But what, and when, was it?

The Declaration of Independence was not signed that day by the 56 persons whose signatures would eventually adorn it. Perhaps no one signed it that day; the evidence is murky. Still, uncountable millions believe otherwise because they have seen John Trumbull's painting, in the U.S. Capitol's rotunda, depicting Thomas Jefferson, at the center of six colleagues, holding "his" Declaration on July 4, as though for signing.

What Congress actually did that day was agree to print and publish the Declaration authorized two days earlier. So, was July 2 what de Bolla calls the "punctual moment"? John Adams thought that day "will be the most memorable Epocha, in the History of America."

What was voted on July 2 was, however, really decided on July 1. But on June 28, Congress considered Jefferson's draft of the Declaration, so was the die then cast? Or was it cast on June 10, when Congress voted that "a committee be appointed to prepare a declaration"? The Declaration was first actually declared -- read aloud to a crowd (at the State House, now Independence Hall) -- on July 8.

De Bolla says that unlike certain events, such as an earthquake or the beheading of a monarch, the birth of a nation has "a different kind of temporality," one constructed as a tradition. This is true even of the United States, which did not, like Germany and France, emerge over millennia from history's mists.

Fifty years later, less than two months before his (and John Adams') death on July 4, 1826, Jefferson was determinedly protective of his reputation as (he directed his tombstone to declare this) "author" of the Declaration. Still, he candidly acknowledged that it "was intended to be an expression of the American mind," not "aiming at originality of principle or sentiment." Hence, "all its authority rests then on the harmonizing sentiments of the day."

Certain politically charged rhetorical tropes were then society's common property. Writing shortly before his death, Jefferson affirmed his belief that "the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace of God." Those words were as stirring then as they had been when one of Oliver Cromwell's soldiers declared from the scaffold, "I never could believe that Providence had sent a few men into the world, ready booted and spurred to ride, and millions ready saddled and bridled to be ridden."

What de Bolla calls "the intricate history of the nation's founding document" does not and should not inhibit Americans from asserting the truth that their nation originated on July 4, 1776. They hold that to be a self-evident truth, which means they have decided to believe it, thereby making it a self-validating tradition. So there.

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About The Author
George F. Will is a 1976 Pulitzer Prize winner whose columns are syndicated in more than 400 magazines and newspapers worldwide.
 
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What a load
Had America in 1776 been populated with the gutless millions who inhabit it now it would still be paying tribune to the Queen.

There is no principle now that most American's could be said to even understand, worthwhile band together and pledge their very lives to.

In slightly more than its first century America had proven only that it did not have the moral will to be able to agree that the enslavement of an entire race of people kidnapped from far-away lands was morally wrong, so they killed each other over it.

By the time the 20th Century rolled around, American's showed their 'moral' standards by allowing everyone but them to stand up for freedom from tyranny in Europe. Entering the first world war well after any real risk was at hand and proclaiming victory as if it had won it.

Then, when again faced with fighting the sort of tyranny they claimed to be against when they started their war of independence to have 'won' the second world war, as if the millions of Russians who in-fact did win the war were bystanders.

In the 60's America couldn't summon the will to actually defeat an army of poorly armed brigands in Vietnam and abandoned their allies
in South Vietnam to death and destruction. The weakness of American's is shown by the continued insistence of the Democratic Party that somehow the directly caused death of at least 3 million humans as a result of their disgraceful cowardice was an honorable thing.

Now, America has managed to actually take a step toward stopping a tyrant and mass murdered, and then decided that golly it has taken more than a football game's time to achieve and thus is an unworthy task for the over-proud USA.

For this weak history America is busting at the seams to celebrate its promising start instead of the rapid abandonment of its founding principles.

We need to really wake up and see ourselves for what we are and not for what we should be.

Cheers,

Bloefeld

Blowhard
Please, learn to sing in the shower.

Sorry Mr. Bloefeld
I see by your geographic location that you are serving the US overseas. Please, write everything you wish, and ignore my previous post. There were things we need to debate in that post, however, the general tenent of your postings here are "aok."

Throw the first stone ... at yourself
"For this weak history America is busting at the seams to celebrate its promising start instead of the rapid abandonment of its founding principles.

We need to really wake up and see ourselves for what we are and not for what we should be."

Despite and because of your service, Bloefeld, I suggest that you are not qualified to throw the first stone at America. Your personal moral code may require you to execute America for her moral harlotry, but it would also require you to stand with her as she goes down under your hail of insults.

At first I was amazed at how the celebration of America and her founding principles - Independence Day - invariably excites the fools who desire nothing more than to see America and her founding principles denigrated. Now I understand that this phenomenon is akin to the behavior of an envious and inferior child who can't stand to see his more virtuous and capable siblings celebrated. You are just such a child, Bloefeld, and the only remedy for your envy is to acquire the same honorable virtues and capacities that are celebrated on Independence Day.

No longer a courageous people . . .
"the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace of God."

Not so sure that we are not ready to be ridden again, so eager are we to sell our freedom for "guaranteed" social security benefits, prescription drugs, etc., etc., etc., etc.

my 2 cents
July 4, 1776 was a Tuesday

Jefferson
Jefferson the slave owner. Jefferson the fan of the French Revolution, the beginning of the downhill slide of western culture. Jefferson founder of the dimmocratic party. Down with Jefferson; up with John Adams. Let's bring back the Federalist party.

Bloefeld
It is true we do not celebrate what we are. We celebrate because of the ideals. We celebrate with the hope of what we can be.

We Celebrate proudly because what our fellow Americans have acheived. George Washington Carver served himself and his race with pride and dignity under circumstances his great grand children will not have to see. Progress Sir.

We CELEBRATE for the men like my dad who was one of the liberators a Nazi death camp, and those who were in Korea, Viet Nam and now Iraq because they who fought and fight believe(d) in liberty for others.
Could we have been places sooner and with greater resolve? We celebrate the democracy of the people. The people protested and got us from Viet Nam. Even that choice can be celebrated if we believe the lesson can be learned.
I shall hoist a beer and commiserate the lost opportunities another day. Not this day.

No we are Not perfect yet.

Those validating origins

There are no original thoughts. No work that comes without ancestry.

Would we might ask Wm. Shakespeare about Thomas Kyd or Plautus about Menander and how each was beholden to the other.

Only in the consciousness of the a priori causality is there creation and origin.

Whether noble inspiration was spoken from the scaffold, the death bed or from the annals of Rousseau, whether written in May upon the red earth of North Carolina or on the 2nd in Philadelphia,... "We continue to hold these truths self evident."

Part 1
I understand Bloefeld’s sentiments and agree with his disgust which seems aimed at the eunuchs in power not America per se. I still celebrate the greatness of America despite the politicians and liberalism that has become a scourge on this Great Nation. Russians played the primary role in winning the war but they could not have done so without Americas help. The Russians were fighting the nazis long before the US entered the war. When it was all said and done the US lost approx 400,000.. the Russians lost approx 30 million.

A very good article about the Battle of Stalingrad, the bloodiest battle in human history [battle death toll for both sides was about 2 million]………

“Soviet commanders discovered that a close-up, in-your-face style of fighting made it hard for the Germans to "fight their way." The commander of the 62nd Soviet Army at Stalingrad, Vasili Chuikov, writes: "It occurred to us, therefore, that we should reduce the no-man's land as much as possible--to the throw of a grenade." Soviet fighters tried to get as close to the enemy as possible, so the German air force could not bomb forward Soviet units and trenches without risking German soldiers.

Chuikov writes that the Germans hated close-fighting, "Their morale would not stand it. They did not have the spirit to look an armed Soviet soldier in the eyes. You could locate an enemy soldier in a forward post from a long way off, especially by night; he would constantly, every five to ten minutes, give a burst on his tommy-gun, obviously to boost his morale. Our soldiers could find such `warriors,' creep up and polish them off with bullet or bayonet.....


Part 2
.....On November 19 everyone in Stalingrad heard distant artillery--the great Soviet counteroffensive had started! The heroic Red fighters of Stalingrad had held their ground long enough for their comrades to close the trap on this whole German-Nazi army.

Mao Tse-Tung characterized the attack on Stalingrad as "a final offensive on which the fate of fascism hung."

http://www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?t=28586&sid =6c4f72a3853d7ca0b0388556756f73ec

America...
... is an idea.

So there.

Fascism
Mao Tse-Tung? Chuikov? You listen to the winners and expect them to tell the truth?

Rousseau was a coward who never married the woman he lived with and who sent all four of the children he begot into orphanages so he wouldn't have to deal with them. His paramour committed suicide after years of living with him.

Mao Tse-Tung and Chuikov were as much fascist national socialists as Hitler - they just wanted a different nation to triumph.

America may have been founded on different ideas, but this ain't the America the founders created. It hasn't been for well over a century now.

Am I proud to be an American? Well, it beats being most other nationalities, but it ain't heaven.

Dander Up
Please ignore what it is you think I do for a living. I could be in Iraq or sitting in the shade in Germany.

My point is certainly not that America is bad or evil. America is lucky to have had the wonderful coincidence of its founding fathers. If it were not for them and America the world would be a horribly different place.

They did get to stand on the shoulders of Giants, but many others could have too.

My issue is that so few of our fellows understand a thing about why the idea of America and the system that our ancestors have put in place is great that they really shouldn't be taking a day off to celebrate anything.

The left has abandoned reason and because the children of the 60's (people my age) have created a post-modernist tradition where the prime tenant of the founding fathers; truth and knowledge driven reason has been replaced with ignorance, opinion and blind belief.

Instead of standing around lighting fireworks, playing baseball and eating burgers, we would do better as a nation to have someone explain to most of us that personal economic freedom is actually more important than any other 'right' we may think we have.

Cheers,

Bloefeld

3wire
I take no offence at anything you can say to me. And appreciate your apology.

However, it lowers the tone to that of say the Huffington post, to say something in an ad hom way instead of arguing the merits or not of what I stated or disabusing me of a notion that I may indeed be wrong about.

I can get all the abuse on line I need by posting on the Guardian forums.

Cheers,

Bloefeld

RCB
Hi, I sort of think I understand your post. You clearly do not understand mine. That points to my inability as a clear writer.

All people should have pride in their country. And all people should be prepared to clearly look at the difference between what they believe about their country and what it actually is.

If I had substituted the name Canada or Mexico for America you would have had no truck with what I said.

Because you probably think that they are somehow 'inferior' to the USA.

But a lot of people and I will use Canada as the prime example because I know the most about it, would think your sense of superiority is wildly out of line with reality.

I used a couple of military examples because American's are for the most part ignorant about what its military has achieved and what its failures have been.

There are many other examples I could have used to make the same point more or less.

The point I was hoping to get across is that for many who have lived in other places the ignorance of their fellow American's is dumfounding.

Test yourself on a few things (no fair looking it up)

Do you know the top three sources of oil that America buys from to meet its petroleum needs;

Can you name 3 Provinces in Mexico and Canada and the US States they are adjacent to;

Can you name the Prime Minister of Canada and if he is the Canadian equivalent of a Republican or Democrat;

Which has a larger land-mass, Texas or Alberta;

Which is the longer river The Missouri or the Mackenzie;

Did an American, a Mexican or a Canadian invent "time-zones"

What is the furthest North City in North America with a population of more than 1 million people;

I look forward to your answers and to continuing the discourse about why America is great and why it is being taken down a very bad track.

Cheers,

Bloefeld

Allen
Two points, be very proud of the military service of all American's who fought in the two world wars, the Korean conflict, Vietnam, Iraq and elsewhere. They are not perfect by any means, but the would never ever fail if the rest of American's did not insist on meddling with their jobs. Soldiers are just guys who are fighting to save themselves and their buddies. That is the reality of combat. But when all of them do that, the result is almost always spectacular success. America has been fortunate as well to have allies who are on the same path. Bravery in support of the guy in the next bunk is more common than can be imagined.

We need to take the qualifier away from the achievements of people like George Washington Carver, he was a great man. His race should never be an issue. If we could, as American's, quit categorizing ourselves based on immaterial things like race or sex we would all be the better for it.

Maybe if Muslims looked at us as other humans instead of, well not human, then perhaps they wouldn't be so keen to make us use Marines to kill them in droves.

Perhaps if we could quit seeing the skin color of one another and simply dealt with the issues in-front of us in common terms, we would have fewer problems all around.

You would be amazed at the doors this could open

Beware, I am not accusing you of being anything at all on a personal basis. I understand the point you were driving at with the example of G.W. Carver fully. It just opened a door for me to make a comment.

My Uncles liberated concentration camps too. They also told me that some of the guys (I always assumed they were some of the guys) were so sickened that they gave their guns and ammo to prisoners to deal with the guards. I can't personally see anything else they could have done.

Damn Proud of America make no mistake,

Bloefeld

The Great Satan
I am pleased that you really seem to get that I wasn't trying to dump on America but only the direction its politicians and the ignorant people who answer opinion polls are doing to the great idea that America is.

On the subject of Stalingrad, I have studied it as well. It has to be the single most moronic war action ever undertaken. Russians were forced to charge into German positions unarmed and if their comrade with a gun was shot, pick up the gun and start shooting.

When studying this keep in mind that at the time of the war, most Soviets were indeed "true believers" in Stalin and saw these sorts of sacrifices as reasonable and necessary to preserve "Mother Russia."

I can think of about a dozen Soviet Generals who were better than any other allied general officers. And America, Britain, Canada, France, the Netherlands, Australia and even tiny New Zealand has some amazing military minds.

Your point about material supplied by America is an excellent one, both for the service to the Soviets but also to the British and Commonwealth forces as well.

I personally knew one of the men who started SAS, he recently passed away in Canada. He had amazing stories. I recommend that you pick up "The Winged Dagger" by Roy Farran to get some insight into both how special forces originated and how special the Russian fighters were when compared to the Italian's and French.

Then read the book "The Feathermen" by Ranulph Fiennes to gain some newer insight to what it means to have been involved in the SAS and how the experience can never be lost.

Bloefeld:
Good posts, all.
Well stated.
Thanks for the book recomendations.
Regards,
E.

Bloefeld
Curious to know whether you feel the words of John Kennedy and his support of liberty, have had particular meaning starting with the Reagan administration. (Understanding Kennedy's actions did not live up to the rhetoric.)

Paraphrase
Let every nation know friend and foe alike, whether it wishes us ill or well, we will pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, bear any burden to secure the success of liberty

Liberty is the goal not the slaughter of Muslims.

I have a particular fear of not standing for liberty as the valley I grew up in could easily be turned to the kind of rubble we see in pictures of Nagasaki.

I sure enjoy the time I can take to sit and watch the fireworks and celebrate because it was given me at great cost. It does not reflect an abandonment of conscience just a celabration of hope.

Pedantry is great
I love pedantry. You can never have enough.

But (a) I've known since, oh, fourth grade, that there was not a big signing ceremony on July 4, 1776, and that the Declaration was authorized two days earlier.

And (b), for vonryansexpress, the day it's discovered that Rousseau ever brought forth a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal; and the day that we learn that that nation, founded on judicious principles, has endured for more than 230 years, through revolution and civil war -- on that day, I will be happy to credit Rousseau with the founding idea of the United States.

Of course we all build our ideas on the shoulders of previous generations. But no other generation anywhere, at any time, produced the United States of America. The uniqueness of our Founders lies in their unification of action and will with ideas. Incidentally, Rousseau had less to do with America's founding ideas than Montesquieu.

First read Mr. Will's column
"I never could believe that Providence had sent a few men into the world, ready booted and spurred to ride, and millions ready saddled and bridled to be ridden."
Cromwellian Soldier quoted by G. Will


"the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace of God."
Thomas Jefferson quoted by G. Will

Man is born free and everywhere he is in chains.
Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Perhaps a more critical reading of Mr. Will's piece and some less cursory impulses next time Commenter 21.




vonryansexpress
Nice try, given that you have not made a point worth making, or addressed my actual argument.

You might want to check your own cursory impulses. It is banal in the extreme to quote Rousseau here, as if his is the main brain behind the idea of man not being born to be saddled, spurred, or held in chains. (A Cromwellian soldier would have predated Rousseau's adulthood by some 70-80 years, so perhaps he should be awarded the "origination prize.")

I note further that "Man was born free and everywhere he is in chains" is not even the same sentiment as that expressed in the other two quotations. It is an observation, not a moral assertion, and contains in itself no prescription that man's existence should be ordered otherwise. Although one can make more of the totality of Rousseau's ruminations, this is actually typical of him. His ideas were largely non-actionable -- and indeed gave rise more to romantic than to pragmatic revolutionism.

The aspect of American independence that is to be celebrated is not that European Enlightenment philosophers, considered together, had a collection of interesting ideas descended from other ideas -- it is that, uniquely, what America's founders created, incorporating some of those ideas, has endured in the same form for more than two centuries. It is easy to say that man is born free but is everywhere in chains. It is the very devil to come up with principles of government intended to rectify that -- without being so weak, coercive, or unrealistic that they play into the hands of the first Napoleon who comes along.

Allen
I agree with you about President Kennedy's verbal support of Liberty.

But his point on the topic has rarely been reflected in the actual actions taken by America.

Iraq is a perfect example. I would have been if favour of the war if the only stated purpose was that no human should be forced to live under the whim of a tyrant.

That every human should have the opportunity to have the ability to fire his government on a periodic basis by majority vote, is a pretty solid start toward granting Liberty.

America was very grateful at its founding for the support and recognition of foreign countries as it struggle for its freedom from the King of England.

Now, most American's think that giving the same support to people in Iraq is simply wrong.

Now, most American's think that overthrowing a tyrant by force is simply wrong.

I have a worry about what the real goal of the Obama Democrat's is. I think there is at least some realist risk that they will use their power and the support of their ignorant or stupid followers to erode what I believe to be the most important Liberty one can have, that being the right to make personal economic choices with the bare minimum of government interference.

Certainly there is enough evidence contained in his background before he became a politician to convince at least me, that he is nothing more than a communist, tarted up to look like he is something else.

We need to keep in mind that the erosion of our 'real' and inherent rights has been a common theme throughout the latter half of the 20th Century, accelerating through the 50's and 60's and now it seems to me it is whirling out of control.

Cheers,

Bloefeld

SemperVigilans
I tend to the pedantic sometimes too. I liked your post and especially the points concerning the difference between the impression of an artist that we take to reflect the reality of the day and what actually took place.

Today it would have been done by email.

The result of the document has been the ability for all to see that there is no better system of government than that of representative democracy.

Be it from the American model or the British, and many that have taken bits of each.

I would say the best thing that ever happened to the citizens of Germany and Japan was to have what is essentially the American Constitution jammed down their gullets.

From that point they became reliable civilisations that reflected their own cultural traditions and yet still became countries changed from long traditions of tyrannical rule into smooth operating democracies where the change of power can be counted on to be peaceful and fair.

Although I have to say that not more than 10 years ago I was hoping that the Germans would get back on their regular schedule of invading France, and cleaning up their perpetual idiocy. Now it seems that even the French have started to figure out that they need to put some restrictions on their international behaviour and as a tourist, their individual distain for most everyone who isn’t French.

Cheers,

Bloefeld

Bloefeld
You forgot to mention the Declaration of Independence; the Constitution; the novel, sophisticated written political philosophy of the Founders (individualism); the establishment of the first free Constitutional Republic in the history of the world; the development of capitalism; the defeat of the Barbary Pirates; the securing of the land of an entire continent; the Industrial Revolution; the enormous scientific achievements over the past two-plus centuries; the evolution of the mightiest, most advanced military in the history of the world; the wealthiest, happiest, most virtuous population in the history of the world.

Oh, and the moon landing, which would have made modern man seem like gods to the primitive savages that have historically been mankind's representatives.

Did I mention that America's achievements lifted the rest of the world, such that lifespans have more than doubled in the Western World? That our achievements have lifted untold numbers out of poverty? That without our achievements, Europe would have collapsed into another Dark Age long ago?

Just wanted to make sure we are being completely accurate in seeing ourselves for what we are.

Wendy
Hi Wendy,
America did not actually cause all of the things that you wish to claim in your objection. The industrial revolution for example was born in England and exported to the world through their empire. An empire that has spawned a great many more democratic nations than has America, there are more parliamentary systems that look remarkably like that of Britain than you perhaps know about. Britain does not have a constitution at all, but at the time of the American Revolution its philosophers (and a few Germans) spawned most of the ideas that informed the great men that created the American Constitution and wrote the Declaration of Independence.

America was very fortunate to have had as many great minds in one place with a common goal whose learning and ability made America possible.

This does not mean that I am take a back-seat to anyone with regard to the massive good that has come from America; on balance it certainly outweighs anything else that America has ever done that could be construed to be somehow bad.

An interesting aside with regard to the Apollo moon project; its leading aeronautic engineers came out of the Canadian firm AV Roe, when the government of the day shut down the AVRO Arrow Fighter Program. The majority of the rocket engine design was done by Germans, as was a great deal of the guidance work. All however were nothing more than a part of a great American team.

continued

Wendy
Hi Wendy,

America did not actually cause all of the things that you wish to claim in your objection.

The industrial revolution for example was born in England and exported to the world through their empire. An empire that has spawned a great many more democratic nations than has America, there are more parliamentary systems that look remarkably like that of Britain than you perhaps know about.

Britain does not have a constitution at all, but at the time of the American Revolution its philosophers (and a few Germans) spawned most of the ideas that informed the great men that created the American Constitution and wrote the Declaration of Independence.

America was very fortunate to have had those great minds in one place with a common goal whose learning and ability made America possible.

This does not mean that I am take a back-seat to anyone with regard to the massive good that has come from America; on balance it certainly outweighs anything else that America has ever done that could be construed to be somehow bad.

An interesting aside with regard to the Apollo moon project; its leading aeronautic engineers came out of the Canadian firm AV Roe, when the government of the day shut down the AVRO Arrow Fighter Program. The majority of the rocket engine design was done by Germans, as was a great deal of the guidance work. All however were nothing more than a part of a great American team.

continued

Sorry about the double post
Your pride in America however I think helps reinforce the point I started out with. We tend to take more credit than is due for accomplishments ranging from the as an example; winning the two World Wars and the creation of capitalism.

American didn’t secure the entire land of North America. Canada simply negotiated with Britain and established its own nation without firing a shot. Canada has never invaded the US, yet the US has invaded Canada. In all cases, Canada has been victorious over America even thought it had fewer men at arms, smaller population and fewer resources. Remember, it is a common error in the teaching of American history that the Whitehouse was burnt down by the British. It was natural born Canadian’s who achieved that task.

America had to murder many thousands of its Native peoples to ‘win’ the west. Canada simply negotiated treaties and other than a small Métis rebellion led by Louis Riel settled their frontier in a peaceful manner. There were no range wars on the Canadian Prairies, law and order was kept by a small police service now known was the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. Read about them and the courage they had in keeping the Canadian border safe from illegal aliens from the US. Men bent on violence and the exploitation of Canadian natives through the illegal trade of liquor in exchange for valuable furs.

America should be proud of the ideals behind the Declaration of Independence and the American Constitution. They are amazing documents, written by amazing people.

But American’s should also guard against the jingoistic trait of taking more credit than is due in the shaping of world events. The actual facts are plenty enough to for all American people to be proud of, there is not need to embellish those facts, nor ignore the failures.

I think it would do us all a lot of good to look not at what has been done, but what is left to be done.

Cheers,

Bloefeld

Bloefeld if not us who
It was not stated with the words secure liberty, in regards to Iraq, but I think you have already agreed that is what setting up a democracy does.

Given that prior attempts in setting up relationships with governments in that part of the world hasn't had the best results a democracy would seem an incouraging step.

The question, and please understand I have yet to sell myself on the answer, Is If not us who will fight for liberty? The U.N. has had a disasterous record.

Bloefeld
----On the subject of Stalingrad, I have studied it as well. It has to be the single most moronic war action ever undertaken. Russians were forced to charge into German positions unarmed and if their comrade with a gun was shot, pick up the gun and start shooting.-----

I presume when you say moronic you’re referring to hitler’s decision to take Stalingrad. I agree. As you stated the Russians did have to fight with machine gunners at their backs who would shoot them if they retreated. But Russians had no intent of retreating, they weren’t going to surrender to the nazis, they were going to destroy them. And they did, chasing the nazi rats all the way back to Berlin.

Both of my grandfathers were captains in the Red Army and both my grandmothers participated as did all the citizens. Their stories are remarkable; a triumph of the human spirit. There was only one option: to win at all costs. I appreciate the book recommendations.

“A german officer, Hoffman, confided in his diary that the Russians displayed an “insane stubbornness.” They are “fanatics, wild beasts, not men but some kind of cast iron creatures; they never got tired and were not afraid of fire.”
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