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Tuesday, June 17, 2008
George Will :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Most Fearsome Power
by George Will
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WASHINGTON -- The day after the Supreme Court ruled that detainees imprisoned at Guantanamo are entitled to seek habeas corpus hearings, John McCain called it "one of the worst decisions in the history of this country." Well.

Does it rank with Dred Scott v. Sanford (1857), which concocted a constitutional right, unmentioned in the document, to own slaves and held that black people have no rights that white people are bound to respect? With Plessy v. Ferguson (1896), which affirmed the constitutionality of legally enforced racial segregation? With Korematsu v. United States (1944), which affirmed the wartime right to sweep American citizens of Japanese ancestry into concentration camps?

Did McCain's extravagant condemnation of the court's habeas ruling result from his reading the 126 pages of opinions and dissents? More likely, some clever ignoramus convinced him that this decision could make the Supreme Court -- meaning, which candidate would select the best judicial nominees -- a campaign issue.

The decision, however, was 5-4. The nine justices are of varying quality, but there are not five fools or knaves. The question of the detainees' -- and the government's -- rights is a matter about which intelligent people of good will can differ.

The purpose of a writ of habeas corpus is to cause a government to release a prisoner or show through due process why the prisoner should be held. Of Guantanamo's approximately 270 detainees, many certainly are dangerous "enemy combatants." Some probably are not. None will be released by the court's decision, which does not even guarantee a right to a hearing. Rather, it guarantees only a right to request a hearing. Courts retain considerable discretion regarding such requests.

As such, the Supreme Court's ruling only begins marking a boundary against government's otherwise boundless power to detain people indefinitely, treating Guantanamo as (in Barack Obama's characterization) "a legal black hole." And public habeas hearings might benefit the Bush administration by reminding Americans how bad its worst enemies are.

Critics, including Chief Justice John Roberts in dissent, are correct that the court's decision clouds more things than it clarifies. Is the "complete and total" U.S. control of Guantanamo a solid-enough criterion to prevent the habeas right from being extended to other U.S. facilities around the world where enemy combatants are or might be held? Are habeas rights the only constitutional protections that prevail at Guantanamo? If there are others, how many? All of them? If so, can there be trials by military commissions, which permit hearsay evidence and evidence produced by coercion?

Roberts' impatience is understandable: "The majority merely replaces a review system designed by the people's representatives with a set of shapeless procedures to be defined by federal courts at some future date." Ideally, however, the defining will be by Congress, which will be graded by courts.

McCain, co-author of the McCain-Feingold law that abridges the right of free political speech, has referred disparagingly to, as he puts it, "quote 'First Amendment rights.'" Now he dismissively speaks of "so-called, quote 'habeas corpus suits.'" He who wants to reassure constitutionalist conservatives that he understands the importance of limited government should be reminded why the habeas right has long been known as "the great writ of liberty."

No state power is more fearsome than the power to imprison. Hence the habeas right has been at the heart of the centuries-long struggle to constrain governments, a struggle in which the greatest event was the writing of America's Constitution, which limits Congress' power to revoke habeas corpus to periods of rebellion or invasion. Is it, as McCain suggests, indefensible to conclude that Congress exceeded its authority when, with the Military Commissions Act (2006), it withdrew any federal court jurisdiction over the detainees' habeas claims?

As the conservative and libertarian Cato Institute argued in its amicus brief in support of the petitioning detainees, habeas, in the context of U.S. constitutional law, "is a separation of powers principle" involving the judicial and executive branches. The latter cannot be the only judge of its own judgment.

In Marbury v. Madison (1803), which launched and validated judicial supervision of America's democratic government, Chief Justice John Marshall asked: "To what purpose are powers limited, and to what purpose is that limitation committed to writing, if these limits may, at any time, be passed by those intended to be restrained?" Those are pertinent questions for McCain, who aspires to take the presidential oath to defend the Constitution.

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About The Author
George F. Will is a 1976 Pulitzer Prize winner whose columns are syndicated in more than 400 magazines and newspapers worldwide.
 
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Excellent article!
A nearly perfect restatement of the evidence that proves McCain is not fit to be President.

I'll be off line
for a few days. conference down south

Robert

TRUTH
If our confidence in our ability to do right,is so easily shaken,nothing can make "US" see our wrong.The Terrorist win each time we betray our own written Constitution.Without a solid knowledge of what "US" stand for,"US" stand for nothing.At the moment in which we cease to stand for "Right", we place into question, "US" right to exist.The constitution was meant to protect the people from the "Tyranny" of the government.When you deny the rights of one,you place into "Jeopardy" the rights of ALL...Thank you Mr.Will,a Conservative without "PEER"...

George Will writes,
"...which limits Congress' power to revoke habeas corpus to periods of rebellion or invasion."

I guess 9/11 wasn't an invasion.

Got to be a way
There has got to be a way to both protect the American People and protect the constitution and give America the moral high ground. During the cold war the solviets has an advantage in that we had an open society and their's was closed. The solution was not to turn us into a closed society.

The Bush Administration and the Neo Cons have played a zero sum game on security when compromises were both possible and prefered. Did they do it with good intenstions sure. But you know what they say about good intensions.

We hear over and over again about the ticking clock, inspite how often you can see that on 24. The reality is that the ticking clock situation is so very rare that it should not be the foundation of our policy it should be the exception.

When we take the moral low road we put our soldiers's at risk. The Supreme court did the right thing.

PS the trails will continue and I have to question if the timing isn't designed to make headlines just at election time in the hopes of giving McCain and the Republicans a national security boost. If this is so, how shameful it is.

michigander
No 911 was not an invasion. It was a terrorist attack. Just because something is awful is does not make it an invasion.

Rockhead29 writes:
I'll be off line
for a few days. conference down south

Robert

Must be going to Matamoros. Thank God, we don't have to put with the arrogance for a few days.

Thank you
Gearge Will for this column.

One star
George you have really outdone yourself this time. In looking for some really bad cases you failed and in this particular case you also failed. You chastise people for “not reading” the decision but it is readily apparent that you did not read the decision either. So let’s take apart your foolishness.

This decision rested on two real challenges. First was whether or not Gitmo is “foreign soil”. The controlling case, as the justices like to say with stare decisis was Johnson v. Eisentrager, which held that the U.S. court system had no juristiction over foreign combatants outside of the U.S. (amoung other things). The court majority blows it off because “although the U.S. legally does not have sovereignty over Gitmo” it does have defacto sovereignty. (Dejure vs Defacto). This is a SCOTUS judge disavowing legality by saying for all practical purposes it does have sovereignty. Or, in other words, legality doesn’t matter. He also waxes poetic about the reasoning for Eisentrager being “convenience”. He also gives other examples of that tired old liberal tradition of quoting foreign law (British). So, in effect, they dismiss Eisentrager over practice and no legality. They do not consider this a reversal of Eisentrager. It is obvious that the decision was a stretch looking for justification.

The second issue was whether or not they could hear the case at all because supposedly congress had limited the ability of the court to act on Gitmo detainees. They called this “unconstitutional”.

cont..

pt 2

Most of the news organizations have called this a huge defeat for “The Bush Admin” and in allows the detainees to have Habeas Corpus. In fact, this is a huge defeat for the American citizen and by effectively reversing Eisentrager, it allows the detainees COMPLEAT access to the U.S. court system and all it entails. I said that last week and lo, this week the lawyers are already filing beefs by the truckload for all kinds of stuff related to the way the tribunals are set up by rules differing from those of the normal court system. People, this decision was the deathnell of the war against these terrorists.

And all of you U.S. hating liberals who say this is freedom for the “innocents” at Gitmo I say this. There are no innocents left at Gitmo. Anyone erroneously swept up has long ago been released. According to all who have been to Gitmo these people left there are the “worst of the worst”; the hardcore terrorist fighters just looking for a throat to hack. I ask you this question; just why is it that you think the countries of origin will not take them back?

What Bush should do is march them ALL out behind the prison and execute them via firing squad.

The Supremes
They need to review the Constitution as it guarantees rights only to citizens, not to enemy combatants. By our laws, combatants caught "in mufti" are considered spies and are summarily executed. Since this would lead to execution of US troops, they have "removed the product from the shelves" and mired it in Cuba. I do note that there is no mention of just how many released detainees have gone right back to their fun-lovin' ways.

how about the other 400
in the time that we have been imprisoning people at gitmo there have been according to the military 600 or so pass through. four hundred- have ben releasd, evidently they are innocent. some of these did the very natural thing after having been falsely imprioned and went on to fight the anmericans. what would you do. most who had been held for an average of over 3 yars, without being told what they wee being detained for, without being shown the evidebce against them without =, for moast of that tiem, being reprsented by an attorney, sometimes subjected to torture no matter what you call it . whqt has happened to this country. what are you so afraind of. i cant think of anything that explins our collective bhavior other than collective fright. reAX a litel, weve been in tough spots before. quit shaking and quivering. they are NOT THAT TOUGH so that we should be so quick to GIVE y=up so much of what THIS s ciuntry stands for,

JM051
As a resident of NY, you above all should not quibble about whether 9/11 was an invasion or a terrorist attack. If you had been in one of the buildings during that attack, or the relative of such a person, you would not quibble, since the people who perpetrated this invasion were certainly not citizens. Why do you stretch so far to give in to the terrorists? George Will is usually on the right side, but here, I think he protests too much. And, lay off using "neo-cons, it's passe. This is a dead-giveaway of a lib speaking.

George is wrong
How can we fight a war without taking prisoners? The Supreme Court is effectively telling our military to give no quarter. As satisfying as this may sound it is poor strategy. We want the enemy to feel free to surrender, knowing that they will get three squares a day and a roof over their head until the war is over. Now they know that they must fight to the death-- even those that otherwise would not. This decision is going to cost American lives.

Basically
all this decision did was hand our enemies the knife to cut our throats with.

One thing
The context to remember is that the U.S. government has declined to designate the Guantanamo detainees as prisoners of war, for whom different procedures are specified, but has held some for up to six years without filing charges. That is shameful, not at all the way an American government devoted to protecting liberty should operate.

G. Will
"More likely, some clever ignoramus convinced him that this decision could make the Supreme Court -- meaning, which candidate would select the best judicial nominees -- a campaign issue"
George has managed to make a Supreme court decision into a politcal blast at McCain.tsk, tsk.Georgey loves Obama.
McCain's opinion was the same as Roberts and Scalia's.The decision was another Liberal decision.
Other decisions equally as bad as this one by our Liberal judge's:
Abortion on demand
Pornography made legal
Sodomy made legal
Euthanasia
Same sex marriage
etc.
And , George, the Dred Scott etc. decisions were overturned.What is our chances with these?

Semper Fi

JM051, you wrote...
"No 911 was not an invasion. It was a terrorist attack. Just because something is awful is does not make it an invasion."

Whether the perpetraters of 9/11 were terrorists or just ordinary, loveable, good-time Charlies, they "invaded" our country and killed 3,000 people.

stupidity!
Given that the SCOTUS allows POW access to the US Courts, what will the military have to do when they take prisoners?

Will they have to debrief everyone and all witnesses during the struggle? Will they have to read them their rights?

or

Will the standing orders be TAKE NO PRISONERS!

If I were still in the armed forces and was in charge, that would be my message. They can't reach the courts if they're dead.

Mr Will is WRONG. 5 of the 9 judges are fools and perfectly willing to jeopardize the country.

The whole idea of stare decisus is not in the Constitution. They made it up. All branches of the US gov't take oaths to the Constitution. They should do the right thing and ignore the SCOTUS decision calling it UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

A Good Case
The ruling makes a good case for the order "take no prisoners."

Gitmo
If giving up liberty means protecting our soilders then when are we going to start. These people who have been released have come back to kill our sons and daughters. Will the Supreme justices replace those dead soilders? Do they have a better idea than holding them? No, they want us to turn them over to lawyers and then let them go as long as it's not on the steps of the supreme court building.

MRCMRC
Are your posts written in some kind of code?


They are very difficult to read, although they don't say very much if I am interpreting them correctly.


Good morning Sheep and Vic...
Gonna be another hot one today here in the Carolina Vic

Lumberjack
re: your 8:20 Rockhead post:

Me thinks there is a coincidence in the fact that CA started same-sex marriages yesterday and now Rockhead is claiming he/she will be "gone" for a few days.

Hmmmmmm......

Very good column.
It is distressing that some faux conservatives appear so eager to extend to this government whatever powers it claims it needs in this WOT.

The president, prior to the Supreme Court's ruling, arbitrarily decided who was an "unlawful enemy combatant"...to be imprisoned indefinitely, with no charges being brought, and with the person having no recourse to contest his status or indefinite detention before a body other than that controlled by the executive.

Faux conservatives, what is so difficult to understand about the following quotation?

"No state power is more fearsome than the power to imprison..hence the 'habeas' right has been at the heart of centuries-long struggle to constrain governments, a struggle in which the greatest event was the writing of the American constitution".

If you think it can only happen to non U.S. citizens, you are wrong.

Jose Padilla was a U.S. citizen, imprisoned for 3 and 1/2 years WITHOUT BEING CHARGED.

Bush administration's power to imprison and hold persons, with no charges being brought, can, and HAS, been used against U.S. citizens.

Faux conservatives might be singing a different tune if some morning they awoke to find that Bush, or some other president, has relied on "information" provided by someone that they or their families were "unlawful enemy combatants".

Good article by George Will.

BMannIII
join us at Jack's place

Will dodges the issue
Will writes:

"None will be released by the court's decision, which does not even guarantee a right to a hearing. Rather, it guarantees only a right to request a hearing. Courts retain considerable discretion regarding such requests."

The issue is not whether any of these thugs will be released. The issue is that the SCOTUS has ripped the authority to make that decision away from the Executive Branch (through the Presidential power, expressly and specificly stated in the Constitution, as Commander-in Chief) and grabbed it for itself, the Judicial Branch.

The court's decision ignores the realities that we are at war with these terrorists, legally authorized by Congress in both Afghanistan and Iraq, that these prisoners were captured on foreign soil, and that historically prisoners of war were not required to even be charged with any crime, but rather were presumed innocent. Their detention was merely a practical matter of conducting war.

Prisoners of war who are believed to have gone beyond the normal violent conduct of making war were identified as "war criminals" and were charged and tried as such.

Finally, how can any such detainee be legally found to have violated US law when they were detained for actions that occured on foreign soil? The left, which has spent the last seven years decrying US abuse of its 'lone' superpower status and an alleged imperial Presidency are now celebrating a decision that presumes US authority to arrest citizens of foreign nations on foreign soil and try them in US courts under US law.

Will is wrong. The five justices in the majority on this decisions are at least being very foolish, and may in fact be fools.

Oh wiseone...
...please grant me an audience.

Is the U.S. military under civilian authority?

Excellent article - less one point
Your insight on the Constitutional protections and the difference between requesting and the guarantee of those rights is an important distinction.
However, on a niggling sore spot, that a lot of us mere mortals have; you made reference to the American "democratic "government. Pundits such as yourself know that the American government is by definition a Constitutional Republic and yet you constantly, consistently and it seems puposely, re-enforce the falsehood of an American "democratic" government. Under a democratic government, you would not have the freedom to write your articles and expound your personal viewpoints in a public forum. You know this to be true and yet you help spread this dis-information. Are you a closet Marxist or just suicidal???
The United States is a Constitutional Republic by the design of the Founders. You, Mr. Will know this to be the case and you know why.The Rule of Law - not the Mob-Rule of the ignorant and the prejudiced. In the future, please quit washing the feet of the Liberal PC powers that be and accurately portray our Government as it was & is designed function. Every time you describe the U.S. as a democracy, you weaken the The Rule of Law. Is that your intent??

Dwain Cleveland

Brad and Bill
I have noticed a "Trend" in Alabama and Florida of late.It is a trend toward "Hate".I am saddened by people who avoid the benefits of "Fact",so as to remain married to their own ignorance.This is how Hitler's Germany came about.We will not permit "Nazis" to run "US" country,or their thoughts.I know,that there are law books in your states and our Constitution is on display everywhere.READ....Please!

Wars of the future
So now the U.S. taxpayer will not only have to pay for the defense and prosecution of prisoners of war but also for flying in witnesses from around the world? Soon we will have more attorneys in Iraq than soldiers. Talk about a can of worms!

ex-Wyomingite (Invasion)
You've got your definition. I've got mine. When an entity enters my bailiwick for the purpose of doing me harm -- whether it's terrorists, an army or a swarm of locusts, I consider it an invasion. I think it's really splitting hairs to say that the perpetraters of 9/11 didn't "invade" the sanctity of our nation, but were simply conducting a little ol incursion.

Hydrogen PE:
Great post!!!

It cannot be repeated often enough. I encourage you to repeat that post every day on every article, no matter the topic. Maybe, just maybe, someday those who come to TH will start to understand the importance of the distinction.

What goes unnoticed is
the failure of the Supreme Court in this case to themselves adhere to the Constitution. This is what troubles me most about their action.

Article III, Section 2 of the Constitution provides:

"In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make."

Congress twice made Exceptions prohibiting the Court from hearing such cases. As they have done on several occasions in the past, but never so blatantly, the Majority ignored the plain language of the Constitution in favor of their personal views. In this case their apparent wish was to be "first among equals" of the "separate but equal" branches of government. They did not act to limit the Executive as much as they acted to remove a limit from themselves properly placed by the Legislative branch. This is not a listed original jurisdiction case, it was taken on appeal.

This is what to me makes this the worst decision ever, worse than all those Will cites. I would hope he would address this issue.


struck out
Mr. Will - you almost hit on something here, but could not bring it home: "The majority merely replaces a review system designed by the people's representatives with a set of shapeless procedures to be defined by federal courts at some future date."

That the court has taken upon itself to re-write law, yet again is the issue. The court has decided that it's wisdom is better than that of the people's elected representatives. Perhaps is it correct - but there is no evidence presented when the entire concept of legitimate government is government by the consent of the governed. The court has done nothing to protect this - it has undermined it greatly - yet again.

The court is wrong.. . AGAIN!!!
American citizens serving in the military are under the UCMJ when they are outside of CONUS. Gitmo is outside of CONUS. If an American citizen serving in our military was charged with a crime there, he would face only a military justice system, even if it was a capital offence. The court has given foreign nationals bent on killing us rights that even American citizens serving in our military do not have.

The court is WRONG AGAIN!!! It was wrong on Kilo, wrong on Roe, and it's WRONG now. It's time we stopped paying any attention to those old mossy backs who have obviously NEVER READ the Constitution. Andrew Jackson did it and it's time we didn it again.

Does anyone know
Does anyone know if the decision was based on the fact that the U.S. has a long-term lease on GITMO as opposed to holding these prisoners in, say, Iraq? I haven't read the decision but suspect that may have been part of the reasoning.

jerabaub
what was Jose Padilla convicted of????

"They were convicted of conspiracy to murder, kidnap and maim; conspiracy to provide material support for terrorism; and providing material support for terrorism"

BBC

hmmmmmm, I wonder how long we really should have held him. Also, wasn't he the one that was detained when returning from.....Ummmmm, wasn't it PAKISTAN???

Just throwin some little facts out there!

killer
I read the Constitution last week, but I don't remember seeing anything in it that banned "Hate". Please elaborate as to where I can find it.

jerabaub
writes:
"Bush administration's power to imprison and hold persons, with no charges being brought, can, and HAS, been used against U.S. citizens"

Names, sources and places please. Otherwise, this in crap!

samswede, you're a genius!
Sending our attorneys to Iraq would end any chance whatsoever of Islamic terrorists ever being able to mount an effective offensive. Brilliant!

I knew in the beginning ...
... that GTMO was a bad location. It should have been Diego Garcia.

Jerabaub the faux intellectual and...
faux con law expert: it's equally distressing to see sanctimonious people extending full rights and privileges of US citizenship to any one in the world while pontificating from an ivory tower.

I guess this faux conservative libertarian can't nuance and parse as well as know-it-alls from Cato, the USSC, and really smart people like you. That must make me a bad person. Where do I go to surrender?

Vic has it right, GW has it mostly wrong
The detainees at Guantanamo are 'terrorists of war'. They are NOT legally 'prisoners of war' since they wear no uniforms and report to national authority. Granting them the rights of the Geneva Convention is a travesty, as is granting them the rights of US citizens.

Judicial excess of the worst kind
This decision is flawed on several different levels. Vic correctly points out the court's abandonment of stare decisis in forcing this outcome.

Other problems:

1) The Constitution does not confer rights upon foreigners detained outside the United States at all -- much less illegal combatants fighting against our citizen soldiers;

2) It violates the executive branch's Article II Section 2 powers of the president to act as Commander in Chief;

3) It violates Article I powers of the legislature to make the nation's laws

Other considerations were ignored. These detainees already had more legal protections than ever offered POW's in any previous time by any other nation, including the United States. Moreover, civilian courts were never intended to interfere with military disputes. Imagine the damage a corrupt activist judge like Mike Nifong could do to the nation's security in furthering his own left-wing agenda. The military already has a robust legal system in place to handle military matters.

What the five majority did was impose their worldview by making law -- not interpreting it -- in clear contradiction of the Constitution. It was judicial excess of the worst kind. McCain will replace at least two of these traitors during his first term. Good riddance.

Our courts and other than US citizens!
Are you kidding me?? Of course they will have the right to request a hearing, and believe me they WILL. And if the courts decide to grant this request, who the hell is going to pay for it?? Who is going to pay for these dirt bag criminals lawyers?? Who is going to pay the court cost for these dirt bag criminals?? Who is going to pay to send them back to what ever country they wish to go to once they are released??, and they will be released. The American Tax Payers, thats who!!!! I CAN tell you one thing, they will be getting back into the fight!! So the US military and all the other Coalition Forces should adopt the rule, "Take NO Prisoners". Many have already been released and guess what???? They have been caught again or killed in the fighting because they just went back to Iraq, Afghanistan or where ever and got right back into the fight. And to you, JM051 the Moral High Ground went to the way side in WWII when the Japanese pulled off a sneak attack at Pearl Harbor, well the Muslim Terrorist did the same thing on September 11th, so again it should go by the way side and get right down in the trenches with the dirt bags and KILL them, don"t capture them, don't take them prisoner, don't send them to a prison in Cuba, KILL THEM! They have no problem killing US do they? SO we are suppose to say we forgive you for killing our citizens on our own soil, you can go home, train some more, find new ways to pull off sneak attacks, and come back and kill some more of our citizens....ok thats fine we forgive you.... again. Tell that to the people that lost husbands, wives, sons, daughters, sisters, brothers, and friends on 9/11........ARE YOU KIDDING ME??? You had better wake up JM051, you or someone in your family could be one of the next victims then how would you feel about YOUR MORAL HIGH GROUND??????????????

Wow...
I was expecting another dose of the apocolyptic ranting we've seen on this case, but this time George Will has provided a welcome does of sanity.

"The decision, however, was 5-4. The nine justices are of varying quality, but there are not five fools or knaves. The question of the detainees' -- and the government's -- rights is a matter about which intelligent people of good will can differ."

michigander
when the robber with a gun enters your home, kills your wife, your children and your dog, I wonder if ex-w thinks this is an incursion of your lives, or an invasion of it? I'm leaning on your side, its kinda like being invaded!


Is war the right word?
In history books we find the story of many wars. To my recollection none were stories of one or more nations battling for survival against an amorphous array of terrorists bent on suicide to kill in the name of a religious call to destroy apostates of that religion and infidels or believers in any other or no religion.

If this condition is new to history, does anyone know just which rules of battle of the past are still in vogue?

Perhaps somebody failed to add a sentence to all previous lists of rules to note that when the perpetrators of the battle represent no nation or when they do not act in response to any recognized government, be it secular or religious then it must be assumed that all who fail to fight to the death, must accept that they surrender without any rights at all. They will be lucky if they are allowed to live.

MDoggg writes:
Subject: George says:
"Does it rank with Dred Scott v. Sanford (1857), which concocted a constitutional right, unmentioned in the document, to own slaves and held that black people have no rights that white people are bound to respect? With Plessy v. Ferguson (1896), which affirmed the constitutionality of legally enforced racial segregation? With Korematsu v. United States (1944), which affirmed the wartime right to sweep American citizens of Japanese ancestry into concentration camps? "

Not to the thugs who inhabit THIS space...These are consider GOOD and SOLID decisions...

Actuall, I cite these cases in my college history as the worst decisions ever made. In order I I rank them

Worst Dred Scott
2nd Worst: Plessy
3rd Worst: Korematsu

Conservative would agree with me.

SIMPLE SOLUTION

.....TAKE NO PRISONERS .....COLOSSUS

Reply to Insighting Truth
The US Military is under the authority of the President. That means it is an arm of the Executive Branch of the government.

Further, the Constitution was written with the idea that the three branches be co-equal, not two subordinate to the third.

Do not try your all-too-typical liberal tactics of moving the the goal posts, changing the target, or, as in this case, redefining or re-framing the issue with me. I won't play your game.

Is your desire to reframe the issue an admission that you have no logical or legal refutation or rebuttal to the point(s) I made?

The Court ignored the realities I mentioned and grabbed power away from both the Executive, and, as other posters have mentioned, Legislative Branches. It has subsequently used this ruling to effectively grant most rights of citizenship to illegal aliens. How many more abuses of judicial power can we absorb before we have a constitutional crisis in which the Prez refuses to comply with some idiotic and/or abusive SCOTUS decision based on "international law" or some contrived, concluded, invented, or outright imagined "constitutional right" that was neither intended or written into the document by the great men who fought for our freedom and then wrote the Constitution to preserve it?

And no, the founding fathers did not right the Constitution to insure the rights of America's enemies, illegal aliens, or even of gays to marry. They also did not write the Article defining the Judiciary to make it an imperial authority. In fact, they wrote the 9th and 10th Amendments to insure this would not happen.

This history does not change merely because leftists find it inconvenient.

tHE UNsUPREME cOURT sHREDS tHE cONSTITUT
See this review of the very dangerous decision.

The court directly violated the Constitution and stepped on guranteed War Powers of the President.

http://mindlessandspineless.blogspot.com/2008/06/unsuprme-c ourt-shreds-constitution.html

Wastch Dog

wiseone
living up to your handle, I see!
good job in breaking it down!

.
"The ruling makes a good case for the order "take no prisoners.""

Wrong. It is not up to the soldier to worry about what happens to a combatant after they are taken prisoner.
His task is to either kill the enemy, or take him prisoner.


The Federal Govt's main job
The chief role of the Feds created by our forefathers was the security of the people in this country from foreigners. While I agree that this does not trump the basic individual rights of citizens if the govt incarcerates, it absolutly trumps any individual rights of foreigners.

And that is why the Supreme Court decision is so terrible in its breadth and extent as it symbolizes a suicide pact for us Americans if we allow this unfettered control over us to continue unabated.

wiseone:
I am not trying to trick you; I am trying to drill down to the essential question.

FYI, I do not use "liberal tactics", I rely on logic, rational thought processes, insight, facts, and knowledge.

My question is straight forward and requires only a yes or no answer. Would you like to try again?

Invasion or incursion
Which did the Japanese do at pearl harbor? Remember they did not invade the U.S.

ssgt
My point was Jose Padilla, a U.S. citizen, was held without any charges being brought against him for three and one half years.

Due to the intervention of the courts, the administration was forced to finally bring charges against Padilla, and he was convicted and sentenced.

Even your kneejerk adulation for ANY decision our commander-in-chief makes, should not blind you to the fact that, given this administration's trackrecord on secrecy, it's highly unlikely it would want the public to know anything regarding those persons it detains.

It knows what is best.

It could not possibly act in an oppressive manner in such a noble cause as this wot, now could it?

You will grant Bush anything, literally, anything he deems he needs on this issue.

Thankfully, Americans who think about this issue, will not.

I agree gitmo detainees must not have access to the full range of rights accorded to Americans tried under our civilian courts.

"Discovery", public testimony from sources, etc. would result in great harm to our Beloved Republic, and to those sources.

But some mechanism must be in place to review, to oversee, the power of this president in his role of singularly deciding who is an "unlawful enemy combatant", as well as some means where these persons can challenge the decision.

This president is not king, despite your view.

You seem to have strayed a long way from the traditional conservative apprehension with the concentration of governmental power, and its deleteriouis impact upon liberty.

Commander45ACP
So the task is simply: "TAKE NO PRISONERS"
Your argument is wasted on anyone with half a brain. A soldiers main objective should be to kill the enemy or remove them by whatever means necessary from the battle. A prisoner of war should only be taken after surrender. Until the enemy does that, kill them.

The
Poles, Czechs, and the Jews had the moral high ground in 1938. How'd that turn out?

The framers...
...wrote the Constitution, and established three branches of government to protect human beings' rights to life, liberty, and property. They professed governments are not possessed of any rights. Therefore, the branches of government have no rights, only powers.


BmanIII
Goodmorning, just got back from town doing battle with WM trying to get them to allow me to substitute the $4.00 Pravastatine for Lipitor. LOL, no go now why does that not surprise me?

And yes, it will be hot today, but not as hot as last week.

samswede #33
How about we get all the lawyers in Gitmo and keep them there?

Vic and wiseone...
are right as usual.

Love to all.

A Summary
I see that there are a lot of questions still open as to the justification the gang of 5 used for this ruling. Not everyone read my post of this morning; I guess that is because it is too long. The problem is that it is hard to critique a juridical decision in a short post but I will try to summarize here.

There were two hurdles that the 5 used to overcome existing case law which stated foreign soldiers on foreign soil had NO ACCESS TO U.S. COURTS whatsoever.

First they ruled that GITMO was “defacto” U.S. soil because we had effective control over it, even as they admitted that it was “legally” Cuban soil, as described by the treaty. Second they simply stated that the congressional action to limit the ability of the court to hear these cases was unconstitutional. In order to do this they used a lot of circular argument and foreign law.

These are two major precedents that go far beyond giving these animals a Habeas Corpus hearing in a D.C. court as the media has alluded. Indeed, as I stated this morning, the courts are already filling up with lawyers filing briefs for all kinds of things BESIDES Habeas Corpus.

And some of ya’ll have joking said we will have to pay for all the lawyers descending on Gitmo. It is no joke. By opening up these people to the full U.S. Court system they get everything, including the “rights” that all U.S. criminals normally get.

To Stupid Liberals
who are supporting the 5 justices on this:

Don't let your insane BDS overcome common sense. As things stand right now, not only will Bush not be the next president, but is appears that your boy the O'Vominsiah will be.

You are actually cheering on a situation which will make it impossible for him to do anything with these animals at Gitmo. Remember, the countries orf origin for what is left down there DO NOT WANT THESE ANIMALS BACK.

That old saying about "be careful what you wish for" comes to mind here.

Vic:
Do you see any human rights issues involved in the ruling?

Hey Shaggy
Last time I checked, there are no concritters in the military chain of command. Wanna dispute that?
Also, the POTUS has sole authority to use the USMC in any manner that he wishes for up to 90 days, WITHOUT CONCRITTERS APPROVAL!!!!
Wanna dispute that also???

IT
One of the circular arguments that the justices used to blow off the commissions that they themselves actually asked for in Hamden was the fact that some of these people had been locked up for 6 years with no end in sight.

I found that ironic since the REASON for all these delays is the on and off again progress of the all the LITIGATION. These people have already had a hearing to determine their status as illegal combatants.

As far as “human rights” goes, these animals certainly were getting a lot more than the people whom they have blown up or sawed their heads off. Indeed, they have already had all the “due process” they deserved. What they deserve now is a bullet in the head. Perhaps we should find their families and make them purchase the bullet the way the Chinese do. You liberals don’t seem to have a problem with the Chinese.

Stupid article
Mr. Will conveniently ignores the rights of US citizens, to which our constitution speaks; vis a vis non-citizens, to which our constitution does not speak.

CLEARLY, Will has never served his country on a battlefield. And CLEARLY libertarians are NOT conservatives as he suggest in his characterization of the Cato institute. And CLEARLY, his viewpoints are becoming more difficult to understand for this conservative of 4 decades.

Great Article
Shows what a dangerous old fool McCain is. Thank god we have 5 justices left on the court who protect our freedom and rights and that Obama will soon be in position to maintain their majority.

I have to question the sanity of anyone who disagrees with this decision. If the government wants to keep prisoners indefinitely they should at minimum be required to show why these prisoners are dangerous. Once you give the government the ability to imprison people forever on the basis of show trials and tribunals with no real ability to defend themselves you have created a fundamental basis for tyrany.

No doubt many of the people in Guantanamo are very dangerous. If so, the government has the evidence to show this. Just do it in a public way, giving the prisoner the ability to contest evidence that is incorrect or non-existant, and the whole debate is over.

Vic:
Do you really want the U.S. to abandon a 200 year tradition of adhering to the rule of law, and follow in the paths of brutal dictators and genocidal communist regimes?

IT
No, in fact, I want the SCOTUS to maintain that tradition which they abandoned with this ruling.

Incoherent
George, you continue to attract the most incoherent comments I've ever seen. The court's decision while imperfect was predictable and inevitable. The Bush Administration has been asleep at the switch dealing with these folks, knowing what was coming. The strategy of just fight this at the Supreme Court was as naive as their initial Iraq strategy.

What they need to do is fine someplace to put these guys, a country with deep dark holes, that don't care about human rights. I would have suggested that Afganistan take them and hold them until the breakout of 1000 prisoners by the Taliban this last week.

These guys are not just fighters, they are leaders. We've seen what a couple masterminds can do. The great reduction in violence in Iraq has a lot to do with getting just a handful of leaders off the street. If the Bush Adm. let's our weeney courts turn these guys loose, its their own fault (and our peril).

TRUTH
We are experiencing one of the saddest moments in American history.It is a moment wherein the ignorance of some, is being allowed to supervise the sanity of others.No matter what Vic,the non-Lawyers says,the truth is our Constitution does extend when "Freedom" is not Threatened.The 5 "Affirms" understand, that these are special circumstances;No Common Uniforms for Combatants and Our techniques for gathering/declaring prisoners.The court sees a system, that is controlled by "Froth" procedures.America was founded on the grounds of Freedom,only to abandon that founding at every threat.The court simply wants to make certain that "Old" mistakes are not revisited.Hatred and emotional immaturity,along with ignorance cannot be allowed to influence our Institutions.I for one,rather doubt that it will!!!"Innocent until proven guilty".

Vic:
It is not clear to me which tradition you want to maintain, and which tradition you want to abandon.

Do you agree that the purpose of government is the protection and preservation of natural human rights?

Jose Padilla
I note that one of our resident liberals referenced Jose Padilla as an example of the government overreaching and calling a citizen an enemy combatant.

Please note that when this was challenged in court, even though Padilla is also a violent criminal who traveled extensively with Al Queda overseas, there was no big outcry by the conservatives when SCOTUS ruled that a citizen could NOT be apprehended in the U.S. and held without charges.

We are not talking about U.S. citizens on U.S. soil here.

Also to some of you liberals “debating” the status of “war”, even the gang of 5 did not question the status of war, that was stipulated.

IT
I want them to follow the Consitution, as written.

Killer mocking Vic...
as a "non-lawyer". He Chief Justice Killer, what law school bestowed a JD on you? Yer opinion and a dollar gets you a bad cup of joe, same as everyone else posting here. Don't mock fellow posters for having a differing opinion on this obviously, and justifiably, controversial issue.


Another Power Grab
By the Supreme Court. This decision undermines Presidential Power, and the Justices know it.

As previously mentioned by a poster, the Constitution is for citizens, not ununiformed enemy combatants.


re: killer reply 87
You're right, however, our treatment of enemy combatants isn't in violation of either our constitution, nor international law. Well, actually per international law soldiers not in uniform and using non-combatants for cover are supposed to be summarily executed. Anything done to them up to that point by international law is the rougher and more horrible the better. The idea is to discourage the placing of un-uniformed troops with civilian populations there by risking the non-combatants. In fact military units that use functioning houses of worship as bases are to be executed as well. Also, those who set up gun emplacements in functioning civilian areas are to be tried by military tribunal and executed. Pretty much international law it really tough on military and paramilitary organizations that use civilians as cover. You should check out the Geneva Convention Accords for 1945 for the rules on warfare and what happens when a force places itself outside those rules.

Our own constitution specifically denies habeas corpus to prisoners of war. Check out the Documents as in this case we aren't violating our own laws except we are letting these barbarians live which is a violation of international law.

BTW
Another little publisized case came down on a dual citizen (U.S./Jordanian) captured overseas. Habeas also applies to him in Baghdad.

MUNAF v.GEREN (Nos. 06-1666 and 07-394)

http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/06-1666.ZO.htm l

MDogggg...
What's the matter? Another rough night shift at the hog slaughtering plant, so you have to take out your daddy issues on other posters here at TH?

Get lost you stupid troll. Find something better to do, like fix the storm door on your mobile home.

badboy
Not to worry, "killer" is a scroll-by. That means that anything he writes is automatcially bypassed as irrelevant.

Vic:
Okay. So do I.

If we both want the same thing, why are we on opposite sides of this particular issue?

And, please Vic, don't just come back at me with a reply like, "...because you are stupid!" that won't get us any closer to agreement.

IT
Please point out the part of the U.S. Constituion that says it applies to foriegn fighters captured and held on foreign soil.

Vic:
There is no such passage in the text of the Constitution. You know we both know that.

Do you see habeas corpus as a legal construction to protect people from illegal detention?

What about We the People?
Doesn't the preamble - We the people of the United States - make the Constitution a compact between the people (as themselves and as state entities) and their federal government? How then can Justice Kennedy torture the law into construing a right of we the people into a universal right of man?

IT
Since we both know that there is no pathway for foreignors on foreign soil to the Constitution, then it logically follows that Habeas does not apply.

Supreme Court Legislation
Mr. Will, Sir!

I must say I was appaled that you would agree with this decision of the Supreme Court. Once again the court legislates usurping the power of both the President and the Congress. The Supreme Court is neither Commander in Chief nor a Legislating body. Compounding their decision is that these prisoners do not meet two Geneva Conventions one they were not in uniform and are not represented by any nation that has signed the Conventions. Perhaps you should consider this before chastising Senator McCain.

TSGT, USAF, RET.

I Wonder
How would this apply to Nazi war criminals in U.S. custody in the American occupation zone in Germany?

Were the Nuremberg trials unconstitutional?

RAZA BY ANY OYHER NAME IS STILL RACE
LA RAZA-REV. SHARPSON-REV.JACKSON-REV. WRIGHT-FARAKAN ALL RACISTS AND RACIST GROUPS. THEIR SOLE PURPOSE IS TO LINE THEIR POCKETS WHILE PUSHING A RACIST AGENDA AT THE EXPENSE OF LAW ABIDING AMERICAN CITIZENS (EXCEPT LA RAZA WHO IS ALSO STICKING IT TO THE GULLIBLE ILLEGALS IMMIGRANTS). THIS IS ONE AMERICAN OF HISPANIC DESCENT WHO AFTER 54 YEARS WILL SIT AN ELECTION OUT SINCE THERE IS NO CHOICE. McCAIN IS RUDE UNCOUTH DEMENTED OLD MAN WHO CONTINUES TO IGNORE THE WILL OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE IN HIS QUEST FOR THE HISPANIC VOTE.

resourceguy:
Because the Constitution is an attempted codification of the concept of the universal rights of man.

Gesell
Do you know how to get to Harvard?I always took "American Legion Highway".I suggest, that you have someone in the Law department explain the Constitution to you.Also a true Conservative, only wants the Constitution adhered to.However,some of those who "Cloak" under our banter,may prove to be enemies to our very purpose.Each time you VOTE,you are affirming the system under which you live.Think,for once with your brain and not your IGNORANCE...PLEASE!!!

Well, (Part 1)
I see the same people debating the same issues of a couple days ago on the same topic, different columnist. So I guess I'll restate my same arguments, too.

First, we're not in a declared war. As Mdogg and others have already stated, Congress has the power "to declare War", and hasn't bothered doing so. The right of Habeus Corpus may be suspended in time of invasion or insurrection, but not just at the whim of the President. Neither condition pertains.

Congress and Bush had the opportunity to declare a war and didn't do so, all while trying to finesse the issue. Well, this is the result.

Further, some of those "combatants" and "detainees" are American citizens. On that basis alone, all must have access to the system if only to merely ascertain their status.

The idea that the government has the power to imprison people for any length of time without access to any type of legal system is anathema to a free society. Hell, that's what the Germans did to the Jews. They were called concentration camps.


This so-called "universdal rights of man
has no buisiness in enterpreting our Constitution.

The one thing that is the major thing is the TEXT. Where that is lacking you then go to historical evidence for the understanding of the writers and founders.

As a last item you go to historical precedent.

Or, at least that is the way it should be done. The way the liberals currently do it is to go to the lasdt case in which the court drifted left and then use it to drift even further left.

That is how you wind up with a ruling that absolutely defies the text of the Constitution like Kelo.

badboy
I will gladly send you a copy of my "Bar Registration",even if you don't have one in return.

Part 2
In past undeclared "wars" we avoided this whole problem by not maintaing possession of captives; we turned them over to our ally host government; the ARVN, the Koreans, whatever. Bush's mistake this time was in not following that precedent.

The solution is simple: open a Federal Court branch on Gitmo to handle these cases. As Will wrote, a court hearing in no ways equates to releasing these people. It simply assures them access to Due Process, to which they're entitled, since they are most definitely NOT POWs. Can't be a Prisoner Of War when no "war" has been declared. If we'd bothered to declare war, then this issue again wouldn't have arisen, because at that point the Geneva Conventions would have applied. This is a classic case of trying to have a cake and eating it, too.

As Vic and others have written, that will entail costs. Yep, sure will. So what?

And don't bother trying to smear me by calling me a liberal. The assertion's simply laughable on its face.

BrianR:
I can't really disagree with any statement in your Reply #105. I do have a question though:

What exactly constitutes a Congressional declaration of war?

BrianR
As I said in the posts above, not even the gang of 5 deny we are at war. Their ruling was based on Gitmo being defacto soil vs legfal soil. A ruling that is patently rediculous for a "legal" proceding to make.

And please note that I have not called you a liberal.

Vic:
I did not agree that there is no pathway for foreigners to qualify for rights protected by the Constitution. I only agreed that the Constitution lacks a specific passage that states such.

You did not answer my question. Allow me to repeat it.

Do you see habeas corpus as a legal construction to protect people from illegal detention?

Stare Decisis? Intellectual Honesty?
Will:

You are wrong. As Scalia quite aptly wrote in dissent, the court pulled a bait and switch. So much for precedent -- the court tells congress and the excutive to create a mechanism for review of Gitmo prisoners' cases. The other 2 branches do exactly that. The court comes back saying still unconstitutional.

Mr. Will, before you climb aboard your libertarion, elitist high horse in myopically singing the accolades of the principles upon which the doctrine of habeas corpus are based, you would do better (as a pure matter of intellectual honesty to balance all of the competing interests presented by the case.

While I acknowledge and value the critically important to a free society that are embodied by principles upon which the doctrine of habeas corpus are based, this decision and its reasoning are intellectually shameful (not just intellectually dishonest); constitutionally dangerous a la Marbury v. Madison (i.e. self-appointed supreme branch of the tripartite paradigm); and a practical nightmare nation defense-wise.

I will elaborate in a following post since this page limits space . . . to eb continued.

The courts should not be making policy
It should be up to our elected representatives and the President to decide whether to treat enemy combatants as mere criminals in our courts. The unintended consequence here is that many of the enemy combatants that would have been detained by the U.S. will now be rendered to a foreign country where they will receive much worse treatment. If I were President, why would I risk American lives just so a dangerous enemy combatant would get better treatment and rights under our system. I'd send him overseas in a heartbeat. I think the point George Will misses is how this decision is designed to take the prosecution of the war out of the hands of the Congress and the President.

reply to killer
Exactly which part of the Constitution am I ignorant of? I know what it says about habeas corpus, but I also know that many conservatives believe--as they've been making clear in their posts--that in time of war the President can do pretty much as he wishes with impunity. Will and the Cato Institute objected to that viewpoint, which shows that they're not true conservatives. So, which kind of conservative are you?

InsightingTruth (and Vic)

A Declaration of War is exactly what it sounds like; it says we are "in a state of war" and names the entities with whom we are at war. For an example, take a look at the Declaration of War for WW2.

As far as I recall, we've declared war 5 times in our history, not counting the Declaration of Independance, which is also a very good template for a war declaration, btw.

There are very good reasons for following this little trivial arcane legality, as I wrote.

Vic, SCOTUS totally avoided the issue of whether we're legally at war or not; it doesn't even enter into their ruling in any way.

The point here is that if we WERE legally at war, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't even have granted cert, because instead of trying to finesse the issue by calling the people "detainees", their status would clearly be that of POWs, who have NO rights to habeus Corpus under established American and International law. Again, if they were legally POWs, they'd be under the purview of the Geneva Conventions, and this whole case would never have gotten anywhere.

I know you didn't call me a liberal; the other day there were others that did, which I guess was the only response they were capable of formulating.

Pretty lame, actually. I thought I'd save them some time.

BrianR...
...has it right. And George Will deserves a lot of respect for this editorial. Will is s conservative who can't possibly want Barack Obama for president (nor do I, as a libertarian), but here he is calling it as he sees it on an issue of great importance.

Frankly, I'm coming to fear my government far more than some pathetic terrorists. The Court's ruling helps to keep the power of the president and military at least under some check. As Will points out, the ruling does not in itself set a single captive free. And as BrianR points out, we are not in a declared war. The word "war" cannot be used as a shield behind which the president does whatever he damn well pleases, whenever, wherever.

Thanks as always, KingLIb

Actually, I did just that and used it on the Blackwell column just now.


BrianR:
Why is the Congressional authorization to invade Iraq, in your opinion, not a declaration of war?

IT
I see Habeas as a "right" given to U.S. citizens under the Constitution. I see it given to foreigners while on U.S. soil via treaty. And IAW with established precedent, foreigners while on U.S. soil, when under a state of war, are guaranteed only two things with respect to Habeas and court review; and that is whether there is in fact a war and whether the individual is an enemy alien. All other items are mooted once that has been established.

I would like to know what you think the pathway to habeas is for foreigners on foreign soil, other than this case which is under dispute.

George Will's article "The Most Fearsome
If everyone would read our Constitution, Article III, Section 2, Para 2 gives the Congress the power under "the Exception Clause" to remove this case from the Jurisdiction of the Supreme Court. Why does not the Congress correct this wrong immediately? Why don't the McCain folks read our constitution and introduce legislation to take this matter from the Courts? Marbury vs Madison in 1803 did not negate this article of our Constitution.

Thanks, Doc W
.

BrianR, I don't know...
...if you are a liberal or not, but I found your post to be a very insightful one.

I would definitely consider myself conservative, but I find myself agreeing that the right of the Government to permanently detain people must be limited.

The Declaration clearly declares the right of the people to change a government which is unresponsive to their needs (life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness).

Should the American people at some point decide that a second Revolution is needed, does the right mentioned above still hold?

Could our Government abuse the right to permanently detain "dissidents" in such an uprising indefinitely?

I think we may agree on much as far as this issue is concerned.

Your Obedient Servant,

George Washington

BrianR
Perhaps you should read the case. In the opening statement they agree to the state of war; I quote:

In the Authorization for Use of Military Force (AUMF), Congress empowered the President “to use all necessary and appropriate force against those . . . he determines planned, authorized, committed, oraided the terrorist attacks . . . on September 11, 2001.” In Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, 542 U. S. 507, 518, 588–589, five Justices recognized thatdetaining individuals captured while fighting against the UnitedStates in Afghanistan for the duration of that conflict was a fundamental and accepted incident to war. Thereafter, the Defense Department established Combatant Status

Aub
One of the travasties of this ruling was that they found the congressional action to remove this from SCOTUS juristiction was "unconstituional". Specifically the change to 28 U.S.C. 2241 subpart (e)

All of you people who keep quoting the
Declaration of Independence are just wasting your time. It has NO BEARING WHATSOEVER on interpretation of the Constitution.

InsightingTruth, Vic

Insighting, as I wrote, a formal Declaration of War states that we are "in a state of war". A troop deployment authorization doesn't do that. The Tonkin Gulf Resolution was essentially no different, but we didn't detain any captives, we turned them over to the ARVN, so we never had to deal with this mess.


Vic, under your thesis, the US Government is free to go into any country and detain anybody for any reason with no accountability to anyone. Do you find that acceptable? I don't.

Further, look at your own post. You used the phrase " when under a state of war".

That's my whole point, isn't it? We're not in a "state of war". No war has been declared.

The Constitution mentions three military scenarios: invasion, insurrection, and declared war. It doesn't authorize "troop deployments" or "funding authorizations" or anything else.

The Framers were very leery of large government and standing armies. They constantly warned against getting involved in foreign wars.

If we're going to be in a war, then DECLARE IT. Let's have the debate, then do what's legally required and make a formal declaration.

This is like trying to be a "little bit pregnant".

Killer
Can you tell me what part of the Constitution gives Ga the Right to S*CK for I live in Fl and we know that if Ga didnt S*CK fl would be an island.

Now stick that in your CONSTITUTION

BrianR
They gang of 5 agreed we are at war, if the liberals accept that while twisting everything else to fit their mold I don't see how you can deny it.

The state of war is not up for debate.

Vic:
Thank you for asking.

The pathway is the inalienable aspect of natural rights. The framers did not distinguish between human citizens, and human non-citizens.

The fact that the U.S. Constitution does not create jurisdictional authority in foreign territory does mean that foreign nationals are magically alienated from their natural rights. To believe that foreigners are not possessed of natural rights is to deny the existence of natural rights. One cannot have it both ways.

Every American has a duty to defend and protect the natural rights of every human being. We, as a people of good conscience, are obliged to honor the ideals upon which the nation was founded. To do otherwise is an abandonment of the principles that we as Americans claim to revere.

Do you agree?

GeoWashington and Vic

Thanks, GW, it poses a very interesting issue on that aspect.

Vic, I did read the decision as, if you'll recall, I was quoting it to you the other day, and you're again misinterpreting the decision.

Nowehere does what you quoted say we are at war. They've simply said the same thing I'm saying using different words: we are in an undeclared war which has raised a variety of legal problems that must be addressed.

You're turning it 180 degrees on its head.

Dimberly
Who gives a SH!T what 11 other countries do or say about America. Im American and could care less what they say.

Yea alsoi your buddies CLINTON, GORE and JIMMA CATTA run around the world bad mouthing their own country and LIBS think that ought to be held as American policies .
If you want to become a U.N junkie just go an do so but dont try bring us down with you on this STUPID Path you LIBS want this country to be on.

We will all be TERRORIST in the EYES of the MUSLIM world soon. If EMIR OBLAMA is elected.

ALAH AKBAR MY SOON TO BE CONVERTED DUMBARSE MUSLIM AMIGO ALAH AKBAR

BrianR
What you and a lot of the other posters are missing is that this is NOT the first instance of justice that these people have had. There have already been multiple hearings prior to any of this cr*p. That is WHY it has drug on and on. And to you liberals, YES, initially some innocents were drug up for bounty. These people were released LONG ago after the initial hearings.

And to BrianR, you ask does this mean that the U.S. can go into any country and detain anybody. What you are really asking here in this strawman argument is whether or not this is a “just war”. That is not the subject of this debate.

To answer your question though, YES if congress has authorized the U.S. to go into a country for military action the U.S. military can detain ANYBODY it sees fit under the laws of war.

Also under the laws of war those combatants who hide behind civilians, bomb civilians, and who fight while not under uniform may be summarily executed, AFTER competent military tribunal has found them guilty of these things.

BrianR
I am reading and quoting directly what the gang of 5 said. They said we werer at war, if you can read English you can see that.

Yep, ex-Wyom

You're right; that IS the problem, no doubt. I'm not sure what the answer is, either.

That's kind of what I alluded to a couple posts up when I wrote that a formal declaration would entail a debate before enactment. That's a problem that definitely needs to be addressed.

Typically, you'd make the nation-state responsible for the actions of groups operating within its borders. "Listen, Turkestan, if you don't stop those Al Queda guys, we're coming after YOU", that kind of thing. Then they'd either invite us in as allies to help them with their problem, or we'd declare war against Turkestan.

In the case of Iraq, since we were going to war with the de facto government, I have no idea why we didn't formally declare war. We wouldn't be dealing with any of these issues if we had.

Political cowardice on the part of Bush and Congress, I suspect.


BrianR:
You and I are on pretty much the same page regarding the lack of a proper declaration of war, both in Vietnam and in Iraq. I just wanted to hear your answer to the question of what qualifies as a declaration of war. The law seems vague on the issue.

I think the root problem is in changes to the meaning of the word war. Our contemporaries do not define war as I believe the framers would have.

Separation of Powers
"...(H)abeas, in the context of U.S. constitutional law, 'is a separation of powers principle'...". Thank you for not citing a reference to "balance of powers", as most do.

"In Marbury v. Madison (1803), which launched and validated judicial supervision of America's democratic government...". Thank you for not writing "...which established...", as most do.

IT
Those are all nebulous and specious arguments that lack merit. If you want to start quoting all kinds of spiritual mumbo-jumbo you can justify anything. Your argument is nothing more than a different wording of the “penumbra argument”.

No, the final arbiter is the text of the Constitution. It has the written word and words have meaning. If you start with the “meta-physics as a reason” philosophy you can make it mean anything you want. In other words, it becomes that “living piece of rubber” that has no meaning other than what you can get 5 unelected t*rds to say it means.

A document that means everything actually means nothing and that affords no protection whatsoever.

Jon
Actually Marbury was a huge power grab by the SCOTUS and the Federal Government made under a conspiracy of Adams and Marshal just before Jefferson took office. Nowhere in the Constitution does it give SCOTUS the sole authority to interpret what the Constitution means. So what does that mean with respect to this wording you are so happy for?

It is false!

For MDoggg
"the CONGRESS SHALL HAVE POWER TO:

"To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces..."

Congress also has the power to enact laws that "regulate" civilian federal agencies like the IRS, the FCC, the ICC, the EPA, OSHA, HHS, FICA, etc., etc, etc.

According to your logic the President does not "control" or have authority over any of these agencies either.

You are the (intellectual) twit in this discussion.

Stick to baseball George
Truly the most uninformed column you have ever written. While the decisions you cite are unquestionably bad neither of them affect the very survival of our country. Perhaps you haven't read the two important articles in today's WSJ. Pick up a copy Mr. Will.

Will wrong on this one
He mistakes judicial review for a supreme check on the power of the other branches, pretty much directly positing that the judiciary is there to keep Congress from being able to make law the judges don't like.

Our Founders were not that naive. They did not assume that the men occupying the federal bench at a given time would be oracles of unassailable truth, who ought to have greater power than the people's representatives. The purpose of our tripartite government was not to give any branch a trump card, but to ensure that action could not be taken without the agreement of at least two branches.

The decision that foreign detainees, persons who are not American citizens and have come under the supervision of Americans by being unlawful combatants, should have the rights guaranteed to US citizens by the Constitution -- that decision is highly debatable. There is nothing in the US Constitution or our judicial history, much less in the documentation of the Founders' ideas, to suggest that non-citizens detained as unlawful combatants must be guaranteed habeas corpus by the US Constitution.

The idea that in political or situational gray areas, it must be the Supreme Court that decides, rather than Congress and the executive, is a pernicious and invalid one. Will is absolutely 100% wrong on this, a slave to the erroneous concept of judicial review he learned as a kid in school. Congress is given authority to limit what the federal judiciary even has jurisdiction over, by Article III Section 2 of the Constitution. This is not an authority congruent with the Supreme Court holding the high card, on what are essentially decisions of policy that fall outside the obvious direct provisions of the Constitution.

re: BrianR
You make some excellent points. Just one question who do we declare war on in the case of the Terrorists? This the problem with unconventional warfare it's designed to attack not just men and material, civilians and private property, but the legal framework set up to allow countries to settle their differences with a minimum of loss of life and a minimum amount of damage to infrastructure. When combatants step outside that framework we need to be able to meet that threat. You can't send a cop in a squad car to arrest a terrorist with AK-47s and RPGs it just doesn't work. International law recognizes this situation and demands summary execution or military tribunals in the field followed by an execution. (Check the Geneva Accords, 1945).

More Irony
Isn’t it ironic that if Sandra Day O’Kennedy had come down on the other side of this ya’ll would be arguing the other way?

Lol, I hardly think so. I think this would never have shown up in the press at all, other than on a back page dedicated to SCOTUS.

This is only getting coverage in the MSM because it is seen as a Bash Bush item for the people afflicted with BDS.

Final response to Insighting Truth
"I am not trying to trick you; I am trying to drill down to the essential question.

FYI, I do not use "liberal tactics", I rely on logic, rational thought processes, insight, facts, and knowledge.

My question is straight forward and requires only a yes or no answer. Would you like to try again?"


Your question is dumb. I made it clear in my first response that I won't play your game.That means that no, I have no desire to "try again."

Merely denying that you are dodging the very logic and reason to which you claim to subscribe does not refute anything.

The point you wish to "drill down" to is not the "essential question". It is irrelevant. But it is the only point on which you think you can prevail. Whether you call this a "trick" or I call it re-directing the discussion doesn't matter. What matters is that you have twice now failed to refute a single one of my points.

As I suspected, your insistence on redirecting the discussion away from the salient points is nothing more than an admission that you can't win on any of the relevant issues at hand.

The Easy Way Out of Gitmo
March the detainees to the front gate. Open it, march them through.

Tell them to walk home and remind Cuba how very thankful we are for the Mariel sea lift and here is returning the favor.

Finished.

Hearings for detainees
It's an easy matter:
Anyone caught on the battlefield killing american has no right to a hearing.

There were reports of soldiers in iraq knocking on doors indiscriminently and arresting some.
Has this been validated?

Terrorists have no right to 'constitutional rights'. Nor should the Geneva convention apply to them.

We need to weigh on the side of caution.
How to determine if some innocent men were imprisoned?
This is the only pertinent question to my mind.


No, Vic,

It's not a strawman argument at all. Under your thesis, there's no accountability required, so the end result is EXACTLY as I outlined. Our troops become a bunch of international kidnappers.

Also, and yet again, you refer to the "laws of war"... which obtain once there's a declaration of war, which is exactly my point. Those laws of war would preclude this entire issue, because ALL these guys would then be POWs, with no rights at all under our judicial system.

That's the point YOU continue to ignore.

But since we haven't declared war, they're NOT POWs.

Therefore, they have rights if it's OUR military that's "detaining" them.

good job
what a terrific job you did inthe writing of this article. both side beautifully presented, just enough sense of menace for both to make onlyuus all wonder and worry a little . the only thing missing is the fate all the others that were in gitmo but reeased, and just a tad of history telling what happened to the property of those groups who were imprisoned during the second world war fot exammple. , you re a good man george will dont let anyonme know your email or your postal address,

Judicial Review
Judicial Review is a legal tradition - nothing more. The Constitution never even mentions it. As a matter of fact, the Constitution only mentions the Federal Courts in relation to supervising and resolving disputes between states, resolivng disbutes between Federal Agencies, and hearing specific legal cases pertaining to ESTABLISHED LAWS PASSED BY CONGRESS. Since Marbury v Madison, John Marshall established an idea that courts could also resolve constitutional matters pertaining to laws that are in dispute. Since Marshall, the courts have taken upon themselves to interfere into the political process. The most memorable one was of course the Dred Scott case, where Justice Taney refused to recognize the humanity of black slaves. However, since the Warren Court, the judiciary has taken away many issues that are primairily political in nature and certainly do not concern the courts. Last week's opinion is just in a the last in a long line of judicial misconduct.

Here is what can be done if a future group of lawmakers ever wishes to return our Constitution to its orginal form.

1)Impeach and remove every single memember of SCOTUS. Yes, this is legal. The Constitution spells out quite clearly that Congress can remove any member of the Judiciary.

2)Re-write the Federal Courts system and jurisdiction in toto. Yes, this is also quite clearly stated in the Constitution. The Congress not only was responsible for establishing our Judiciary but also it is responsible for setting judicial jurisdiction. .

3)The President than should work with the Senate in appointing new judges who clearly understand the role of the courts as defined originally by the Constitution and its authors.

4)The Congress should then draft a law rescinding judicial review - no, there should be a constitutional amendment that for all times rescinds judicial review.

just imagine nixon with this power
anyone who wonders about the real importance of this decision just try to imagine Nixon with his bulit in paranoid antipathy toward certain groups(reporters for example) having the authority that bush said he had. thered be hundred in gitmo or hungary otr poland or wherever yet.

For All Who Favor Rights For Terrorists
The avenue is the political process, and not the legal one. Most Americans have become so accustomed to short-circuiting the political process, that they actually believe it is the court's obligation or holy writ to re-write laws. If you do not like a law, petition your legilsator or elect a new one. The courts orginally were to have no bearing on the political process. Hamilton once quipped that the Judiciary was suppose to be the least dangerous of all branches -little did he know.

PRISIONERS IN GUANTANIMO BAY
SINCE WHEN DO ENEMIES DESERVE THE RIGHTS TO OUR CONSTITUTION? THEY WORE NO UNIVORMS; HID UNDER GROUNG; FOUGHT BY DECEPTION BY WRAPPNG BOMBS ON CHILDREN! WOMEN! CARS! etc. NO WAR DECLARED! UNCONVENTIONAL! TREATED BETTER THAN AMERICAN PRISONERS!THEY HAVE NO RIGHTS AS CAPTURED PRISIONERS! THE CONSTITUTION HAS BEEN RAPED!!!!!L GAIL

Insight, ex-Wyo, Maladain

Insight, I agree, they're parallel and analogous situations. I'm sure this debate was held at least internally in the military during Vietnam, and the decision was made to turn captives over to the ARVN. This is the first non-declared military action in which we've "detained" captives rather than turn them over to the host government.

Ex-Wyo and Maldain, yeah, as I wrote, I'm not sure what an answer would be. That's always been the strength of asymmetric or guerrila warfare; an amorphous enemy.

It's especially problematic in this case, as many if not most of these guys truly are "unorganized militia", i.e. a bunch of individuals acting anarchically. Very much like Somalia during the Blackhawk Down era.


As I wrote way back when I first started blogging, IMO the only hope for success would have been to take all the clerics, line them up against a wall, and shoot them. I'm not sure even THAT would have worked, but the Muslim ME is and always has been a mess. That's why the Brits pulled out back in the late 40s; no possible resolution in sight anywhere. Now we've embroiled ourselves there.


My last word on war status
Since the liberal gang of 5 agreed we were at war and the conservative dissenters also agreed, then the feeling was unanimous that we were and are at war.

I rest my case

MRCMRC
Get real. This nation has a long history of imprisoning foreigner without due process. Heck, we imprisoned thousands of Confederates during the Civil War. Major O'Banion imprisoned dozens of sheiks in Tripoli and then had them shot for piracy. Roosevelt imprisoned hundreds of thousands of Japanese as well as striping them of thier property. In each case, Congress and the President had jurisdiction -not the Courts.

Respond to MRCMRC
"Subject: just imagine nixon with this power"

Um, perhaps if Nixon had done, in the early 1970s, what Bush has done in the last few years (i.e. target terrorists as the combatants they are), the last 30 years of terrorist attacks might not have taken place.

Or, if you don't like "Nixon", try "Clinton"

Aub - regarding your idea
As I noted in my comment #36, the Congress cannot rectify this in the way you suggest because the Congress already twice wrote exceptions under Article III, Section 2, paragraph 2 and the Majority of the Court declared itself unlimited, unconstitutionally in my view.

Read the Majority Decision, they even discussed the Exception Congress had passed before they ignored it. The only thing the Congress can do now is instruct the President to ignore the Court and enforce the law (including the Article III Section 2 exception) and hope the President will join the Congress in enforcing the power of Congress over the Court.

This is not about reigning in the Executive, it is a power grab by the Court of the power of Congress to regulate the Court.

Vic.... ((((((sigh))))))

Nobody said we weren't at war. People are over there killing each other.

We are at war, in an UNDECLARED war, which means it's not technically nor legally a "war", and that's what's at the heart of the status of the "detainees".

They're not POWs, since there's no declared war, and so they are entitled to access to some judicial system of review -- and in this case Habeus Corpus -- to which they wouldn't otherwise be entitled if we'd ever bothered to actually declared war.


Authorized and Declared
Congress is the only body, that can Declare War;United States Constitution Article 1 Sec.8.Congress has NEVER Declared war on Iraq.However, it did Authorize President Bush to move troops into Iraq's borders.Much of this war declaration was between Pres.Bush and the U.N.,not congress.Congress has had over 20 opportunities to make it's war declaration against Iraq,it has declined each time.This being the case all the attending "Madness" about killing innocent people caught in a "Human Shield" predicament is lunacy.The Geneva Convention does not extend to undeclared war.Therefore the issue of uniforms goes unresolved.The fourth Geneva Convention addressed Civilians and requires, that they be tried in a regular court.If a person did not possess a gun,he must be seen as a Civilian.The Geneva Convention uses "Specific Language" and in every reference one must openly possess a gun in order to be declare a combatant.

JPK
Yours at 1:42 PM -- drastic measures, but they may be needed. I think it will take more, however. The entire citizenry needs to be reeducated, to understand your first point: that what we call "judicial review" today is not prescribed in the Constitution. Nor was it an operating principle envisioned by the Founders.

It has arisen through custom, and the exploitation of judicial activists. Far from keeping us safe from "Congressional activism," it has mainly served to impose measures on us when Congress was NOT acting, due to serious divisions among the people, and the consequent impossibility of legislative consensus (or executive approval).

I bet that's not what you or anyone else here learned in school. We all learned that "judicial review" meant the Supreme Court was the final authority on all questions of law -- meaning basically anything anyone thinks we need to have a law about. The Founders never saw it that way, nor is it an effective approach to checks and balances. Legislating against each other should always require a majority in the legislature and the approval of the executive. Our modern understanding of "judicial review" undermines that principle over and over again.

uwcharlie
Yes, and I lost friends in the Trade Towers. I have no problem in capturing and killing the enemy. That is why I am so upset that GWB took his eye off the ball and allowed Osama to escape. But I also concerned about ours or any government imprisons innocents. The supreme court simply provided the right to their day in court. Thats the American way then they can face punishment for their crimes if they are found guilty otherwise they should be treated as prisoners of war. 911 was not an invasion, it was a terrorist attack. I would have loved to see a public trial of Osama back in 2003 when he could have been caught.


michigander
No there was no invading army. It was a terrorist attack, a bombing is not an invasion, neigher is flying plans into a building. Germany invaded france. The Russians invaded afganistan. The Israelies did not invade Iraq when they bombed its nuclear facilities, nor did we invade Libya when we bombed them. They are different things. That is George Wills point.

JM051
Would you believe that trying bin Laden in a US court and convicting him was a method of making American more secure against Islamic terrorism?

That belief is illogical. Bin Laden is close to irrelevant today, and at no time was he the "center of gravity" or motivating force of wahhabist radicalism. He is the leader of one prominent group, three quarters of whose leadership HAS been killed or captured. His personal ability to order and plan large-scale attacks has been effectively removed; he is a fugitive unable to cross a border or keep an inner circle for very long.

Your love of the idea of a public trial is meaningless to national security. You should thank God we have not caught bin Laden, since doing so would not make us even a little bit more secure -- but would be used by foolish people to argue that the war on terror was over, and we had "won."

BrianR:
The ruling is a correct one. The reasons the justices give are specious.

I am not interested in the arguments and counterarguments of the justices. As you can see, the 5 to 4 decision is custom made to divide people.

There are a few things in this world that either are or are not. For example, I am either alive or I am not.

We, as a people either believe in the foundational assumption that underpins our society or we do not. The prime assumption is the existence of natural rights. They exist or they do not.

Vic, among others, denies the pertinence of rights in this case. If rights do not apply in this case, they do not apply in any case. In fact, if they do not apply here they do not exist at all.

If natural rights do not exist, then our two hundred plus year history as a nation has been nothing but an experiment in self-delusion.

Ex Wyoming
The Russians found much easier to learn about going on the US. We had a more difficult time doing intelligence.

The morale high ground is important it gains you international allies and it helps to keep you to your principles. Those principles should not be silly or a non-military standard but an army that is based on rules is a better army. We become superior to our enemy when we conduct war based on a chain of command and the rule of law.

The ticking time bomb is often used as a justification for torture, Would you torture someone to find the location of a ticking time bomb. Experts in intelligence and they are hardly flaming liberals that you get more actionaable intelligence when you establish a relationship with the subject. The Bush administration has consistently ignored the views of the experts and replaced years of knowledge and experience with gut instincts. Most of the post on this subject are from the gut. Kill the bad guys why should we care about their rights, etc. We do what we do because we are who we are and when we lose that we have lost ourselves.

I remember a famous quote from General Swartzkopf who said two who said the two most important thangs in life are doing the right thing and doing what is right. People can certainly disagree on some of the details here but what ever we do I hope we will think rather than feel our way to decisions as important as this otherwise history will judge use badly as it did the Roosevelt administration for the Japanese Internment.

ex-Wyomingite: Framers and Barbary Wars
In one of your posts you state that,
"The 'framers' had never heard of terrorism, Islamism...:"

Google the Barbary Wars and please reconsider your statement.

From wiki:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War

In 1786, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams went to negotiate with Tripoli's envoy to London, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman or (Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja). Upon inquiring "concerning the ground of the pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury", the ambassador replied:

It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise. He said, also, that the man who was the first to board a vessel had one slave over and above his share, and that when they sprang to the deck of an enemy's ship, every sailor held a dagger in each hand and a third in his mouth; which usually struck such terror into the foe that they cried out for quarter at once.

This is the Tripoli event referenced in the the US Marine Corps Hymn

SemperVigilans
I agree that capturing and putting on Trail Osama would not end the war on terror, but just as the Dolittle Bombing of the Japanese Mainland did not have a significant strategic impact. Its effective on both the Japanese and US morale made it worth both the risks and the sacrifice.

A public trail would be great.

Exactly, Insighting

Once Congress passes a war declaration, the President -- as Commander in Chief -- assumes sole and unchallengeable authority over the conduct of the war, including troop dispositions and conduct of operations, including treatment of POWs (who at that point receive that status).

Congress's role is limited to appropriating funds to conduct the war.


When war is prosecuted using Congressional "deployment" and "funding" authorizations, Congress has retained control over the conduct of the war, and the President's role is therefore limited to carrying out the will of Congress.


THAT is the essence of the Bemoudierre decision. Bush was refusing to treat the "detainees" as mandated by Congress in two separate acts, and the "detainees" thus petitioned for -- and received -- Habeus Corpus on that basis.

Yes, moron



Subject: Oh wiseone...
...please grant me an audience.


InsightingTruth 9:19 AM EST
Is the U.S. military under civilian authority?

Its called the Executive Branch.
That differs from the Judicial Branch, moron.

Now I understand why George Will is on ABC with Steponopolous and the other liberals.

Wish he could just say what he thinks clearly instead of posing questions that produce questions.



GO MCCAIN NO TO OBAMA
Since when does the Supreme Court, Congress, or any other body of government have the Right To Grant Citizen Rights to Non-Citizens??? Answer, they do not. The executive branch of government is charged with Executing Law and the President is the Commander In Charge of Military Actions. These Getmo Detainees are wartime enemies and as such are under the exclusive jurisdiction of the executive branch of government. The Congress and The Courts have pretty much given Complete Amnesty to Non-Citizens. Witness the Illegal Invasion of our Country of many nationalities who come across our borders daily. Witness the Un Checked Ports and Borders that Allow Tainted Foods into the country that cause eating scares. Witness the diseased individuals carrying everything from crabs to Aids and Tuberculosis who cross our borders daily without even a health screening. No, our congress, and courts have granted amnesty to the complete subversion of our Rights as Citizens to be free from Foreign Invasions. All three branches of government have been complicit in aiding and abetting the Illegal Invasion and the Refusal to Inspect Food and other cargo that comes into the country. They only react to things after the Food Poisoning, etc. is detected. When are our so-called leaders going to wake up and Do Their Jobs and begin to run the Country For Citizens and quit Running it for the Aid of Illegals and those who want to hire them and for the Terrorists who want to destroy us? It is time that Americans realize that Our Government Gives Illegals and Terrorists Carte Blanche. So, yes, Mr. Will, you elitist, Mr. McCain did make a bold statement. It is about time that somebody in this Dog and Pony Show says something of substance. From: Patriot Jerome Ennis In Tuscaloosa, Alabama

badboy
I think Vic's advice was good on scrollby status. Notworth the time to decode. I do see that the
Poster in question is offering you his bar registration I see. I reckon he probably has one to every bar in town, judging by his posts. They seem to vary in intelligibility, probably correlating to how deep into the bottle they occur...
:-)

The Most Fearsom Mistake!
I have always agreed with you... until today! I believe that giving the enemy the oportunity to sue us for their capture (arrest) and to prove that GI Joe had proper evedence (can prove he was being shot at) to execute an arrest several years ago, and properly read him his rights, when the arresting officer (Marine) may not even be alive today... is ridiculous!!!
I always thought the Constitution applied to US citizens, not world citizens! Should we have tried the Nazis in our courts here in the US???
I don't think so!!!

Norman
EVERY treaty America made with Muslims was broken the moment our warships left!
Use of Wikki proves you a newbe. That is all you can prove with Wikki.

This is why you can't make treaties with Muslims.
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/316

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Capturing prisoners is a dangerous nuisance.
It has also been made futile and a source of both legal & political hazard to the soldiers.
This ruling will help soldiers decide against taking prisoners.
Those inept Judges just sentenced hundreds of thousands of future prisoners to death.

How does the conduct of those Judges & ACLU look if you apply this section of the Constitution?

U.S Constitution, Article III, Sect. 3
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainer of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attained.

Vic
Thanks for your posts on this thread. I have found them to be most helpful and clarifying.

Hi talent scout:
It is nice to hear from you again. Better a late kibitz than no kibitz at all!

I suppose it's too much to ask that you comport yourself with civility.

Regardless, now that you are involved in the discussion I'll address my next question to you.

As a civilian, is the President restrained by the same law that restrains other civilians?

If he is then the civilian court has jurisdiction over his conduct. Correct?

Sunthe1
I don't attend bars and I don't associate with people who do.If you have access to a Lawyer,please have them to review my comments.It is a sad day, when those who don't, become "Envious" of those who do.You don't need a Law degree to understand Mr.Will's truth.But an open mind and a willingness to learn is required.People often wonder why the "Elite" don't interact with the other members of society,ignorance is the greatest "DETERRENT".

Will your spleen is showing
Sen McCain called it ONE of the worst decisions.
Then Mr. Will goes on to ask whether it "ranks with Dred Scott..." and others.
This is quite a disingenuous tactic Mr. Will. It's clear this is all about you not liking Mccain.
You give yourself away when you say some ignoramus must have advised him it was a campaign topic.
Well, actually terrorists and supreme court justices ARE campaign topics.

You let your emotions get in the way here, Mr. Will.
A lousy column. Even if your premise is right, you made an emotional idiot's case for it.

Killer
Limbaugh Column ----National Security is THE issue;;

Killer writes ------------------------Friday, April, 11, 2008 6:47 PM

MyOpine
In 1902 "US" attacked and slaughtered many people in the Philippines.After
much investigation, it was determined, that the war had been wagered² so as to
give our soldiers something to do.The "Depression of 1892" had lasted almost
a decade and tempers were running hot.Innocent people were brutalized by
"Salvages"³, in the name of WAR. Calling me "PINK" or "Sissy" does not bother
me.I care about "Right and Wrong".Everything else can go to "HELL".The word
"Every" allows no exceptions.
.................................................................................................................................
² I think he meant "Waged" (His spacing, content & diction, not mine.)
³ I think he meant "Savages"

Enemy Aliens who hate America like you do should not be permitted to walk free among Americans.
You have come here to this Conservative American site and publicly posted conjecture containing dire insults to all Americans, our Government and our military.
I have asked you to post a link on this site to verify your insulting allegations.
YOU have the burden of proof for YOUR insulting allegations.
Telling me to go buy a book only proves your arrogance!

Either prove the insulting allegations you conjured up are true or retract your insults and apologize to the American people, our Government and our military.

MyOpine You assume too much
ex-wyomingite stated the framers did now know of the actions of these types of terrorists. The purpose of my post was to demonstrate that the Barbary Wars educated them on this topic. The response of the Tripoli Ambassador demonstrates that their tactics are justified by their religious beliefs. I have read this correspondence on many websites, most of them being religious in nature.

I asked ex-wyominite to google the phrase. That would give a bevy of websites to choose from. However, when making a point, I chose to give the correspondence from Wiki because it does not specifically endorse religious views, as many of the others do. If I would have given the wallbuilders, etc. websites, an argument can be made that the comments are taken 'out of context' due to the religous nature of the website or 'bigoted.'

I have posted numerous times, mainly to resonses of the Morse and Chapman articles. Before your attack my scholarship and references cited, I suggest you read my other posts.

The more pertinent Constitutional passage is Article I, Secion 9:
The privilege of the writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.


Norman You assume too much;
1st. I made no attack on you. Dry your eyes and stop crying.
2nd. Your use of Wikki marks you as a newbe.
I have seen few of your posts to judge you by.
If you have so much experience here you should know better.
I had no intent to offend you.
If you had read a few of my posts you would know my intentional insults are not subtile.

Art. I, sect9 deals with Habeas Corpus.
I was addressing "Giving aid and comfort to the enemy"
Which Art.3, Sect.3 clearly defines the actions of those judges in even hearing the case as Treason.

A very interesting
response to the supreme court ruling in the Arizona Republic.

"With the ruling by the Supreme Court on the detainees at Guantanamo, a new piece of equipment will have to be issued to all service members before engaging an enemy.

The new equipment is a copy of the Miranda rights, which our soldiers will have to read to any prisoners they may be so foolish as to capture. After all, we wouldn't want to violate their rights.

Score one more for the liberals. "



reply to MyOpine
In the interests of truth, here are some things you can read about the US action in the Philippines. You don’t even have to go buy a book---I know you think it’s arrogant for someone to ask you to read a book. Is it arrogant to ask you to click your mouse?

Your rant puzzles me. How do you know that the person you attack is (a) an “Enemy Alien” and (b) hates America? I suspect you’re one of those right-wingers who thinks that anyone who even appears to criticize anything at all ever done by the US is some sort of enemy .[What do you think of Pat Buchanan, who has been denouncing the war for several years now? Must be an enemy alien, right?]

Anyway, rather than insult you any more—although it would be fun—here are some sites even a conservative might (just might) believe.:

1.) The Cato Institute: http://www.cato.org/research/articles/niskanen-040430.html

2.) The National Archives: http://www.archives.gov/publications/prologue/2000/summer/ philippine-insurrection.html

3). Military.com
http://www.military.com/Resources/HistorySubmittedFileView? file=history_philippineinsurrection.htm" target="_blank">http://www.military.com/Resources/HistorySubmittedFileView? file=history_philippineinsurrection.htm

(4) Finally, a site even the most rabid conservative can’t diss too much: the official site for the Medal of Honor. (although I’ll bet you’ll think it’s an alien leftist site.)

http://www.military.com/Resources/HistorySubmittedFileView? file=history_philippineinsurrection.htm" target="_blank">http://www.military.com/Resources/HistorySubmittedFileView? file=history_philippineinsurrection.htm

I fully expect some nasty outburst of prosimian ignorance and level of literacy because the truth can hurt.

killer declaration of war
Psst: We did not go to war "against Iraq".

Stick to baseball, George!
Think of these 'detainees' as 'designated hitters' and maybe you'll get it right.

common sense...is required..period!
Civilian court over the president? duh!
However it seems we need to pass some new laws that fit our situation(s): citizens -vs- non citizens(terrorists,etc.)
Our forefathers obviously thought we would have enough brains to preserve ourselves! Silly on their parts,huh?!
The Prez of the U.S. is a citizen..surprise!
The terrorists should be treated as enemies of the nation, they act in a militant manner so treat them in a military manner..execute them!
Future: What prisoners?
To say that liberals are stupid is only 1/2 right..thay are suicidal(sp)!!
Does the Supremeless Court function in D.C.?
If so, that explains everything,that global warming is most sever there..MELTED BRAINS!
ELVIS

killer
Your (3:11pm) post is perfectly coherent to me. That is not always the case, and it's not legaleze you're speaking sometimes.
I do in fact see the point Will is making, and I also see the complexity of it, nicely outlined here by a number of very articulate posters. They've had a very informative debate.

As Long As A President
Can count on political support in the Congress to avoid impeachment he can ignore any decision from the Supreme Court that he wishes to ignore. Indeed, he could imprison any or all justices...

A less confrontational path would be to simply not allow lawyers anywhere near Guantanamo Bay. That would be a violation of a (Supreme) court order, but whom would the justices call upon to enforce their order? Hmmm?

ThunderThudd

The President has absolutely no power to imprison Justices. Where in the world did you get THAT idea?

Care to cite a source clause in the Constitution?

Last I checked, we didn't live in Nazi Germany.