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Sunday, April 13, 2008
George Will :: Townhall.com Columnist
Fooling Ourselves into Entitlements
by George Will
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


WASHINGTON -- During presidential elections, when candidates postulate this or that "crisis" for which each is the indispensable and sufficient cure, economic hypochondria is encouraged, so a sense of suffering is rampant. Recently The Wall Street Journal, like Joseph Conrad contemplating the Congo, surveyed today's economic jungle and cried, "The horror! The horror!"

Declines in housing values and the stock market are causing some Americans to delay retirement. A Kansas City man had been eager to retire to Arizona but now, the Journal says, "figures he'll stay put for another couple of years." He is 59.

So, this is a facet of today's hydra-headed "crisis" -- the man must linger in the labor force until, say, 62. That is the earliest age at which a person can, and most recipients do, begin collecting Social Security.

The proportion of people aged 55 to 64 who are working rose 1.5 percentage points from April 2007 to February 2008, during which the percentage of working Americans older than 65 rose two-tenths of one percentage point. The Journal grimly reports, "The prospect of millions of grandparents toiling away in their golden years doesn't square with the American dream."

Oh? The idea that protracted golden years of idleness is a universal right is a delusion of recent vintage. Deranged by the entitlement mentality fostered by a metastasizing welfare state, Americans now have such low pain thresholds that suffering is defined as a slight delay in beginning a subsidized retirement often lasting one-third of the retiree's adult lifetime.

In 1935, when Congress enacted Social Security, protracted retirement was a luxury enjoyed by a tiny sliver of the population. Back then, Congress did its arithmetic ruthlessly: When it set the retirement age at 65, the life expectancy of an adult American male was 65. If in 1935 Congress had indexed the retirement age to life expectancy, today's retirement age would be 75.

The standard definition of a recession -- two consecutive quarters of contraction -- means we still are likely several months short of being in one. The 9.9 percent first quarter decline of the S&P 500 barely ranks among the 40 worst quarterly losses ever in the index's history. Leave aside the 39.4 percent decline in the second quarter of 1932. The economy experienced no long-term trauma because of the declines of 10.3 percent, 14.5 percent and 23.2 percent in the third quarter of 1998, the third quarter of 1990 and the fourth quarter of 1987, respectively.

Yes, in January single-family homes in major metropolitan areas lost 10.7 percent of their value from last January. To find such a large decline in a year you must peer back into the mists of prehistory, all the way back to ... the 1990s. Furthermore, the vast majority of homeowners will remain well ahead, even after the market corrects for housing inflation.

By one measure, between the beginning of 2000 and the middle of 2006, as the consumer price index was rising 21 percent, average housing prices rose 93 percent -- and much more in some markets (Miami 180 percent, Los Angeles 175 percent, Washington, D.C., 150 percent).

Not long ago there was broad agreement that too much of Americans' wealth was tied up in the nation's housing stock, and that the principal impediment to homeownership was not a scarcity of cheap mortgages but the prevalence of high housing prices. Hence deflation of housing prices would be desirable.

So far during this "crisis," the homeownership rate has declined just three-tenths of 1 percent since it peaked in 2004. At 67.8 percent, it remains higher than it was when President Bill Clinton left office.

Subprime mortgages are a small minority of mortgages, and only a minority of subprime borrowers are not making their payments. Casting this minority of a minority as victims of "predatory" lending fits the liberal narrative that most Americans are victims of this or that sinister elite or impersonal force, and are not competent to cope with life's complexities without government supervision.

The politics of this may, however, be more complex than the compassion chorus supposes. The 96 percent of mortgage borrowers who are fulfilling their commitments, often by scrimping, may be grumpy bystanders if many of the other 4 percent -- those who found the phrase "variable rate" impenetrably mysterious -- are eligible for ameliorations of their obligations.

What next? Adults still burdened with student loans have not yet announced their entitlement to relief, but as they watch this subprime drama, might.

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About The Author
George F. Will is a 1976 Pulitzer Prize winner whose columns are syndicated in more than 400 magazines and newspapers worldwide.
 
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Good Column as usual Mr. Will
A little common sense amid all the doom and gloom but, here comes Sam with gloom and doom. They see the increasingly interdependant nature of the global economy as bringing all types of goblins and evil things unthought of. And it's all a nefarious plot by those CFR types of which you are one. Ya, the left and the democrats would prefer to give up our sovereinty to any world government that came along but, most of us won't and it ain't gonna happen for a quite some time, if at all. In 50 years, we might just be the decadent European socialist society wafting in the wind of China's economic influence, while the current Europe has become the Islamic European Republic united under sharia law.

I agree with Hitchhiker
We do not need Sam and his ilk making all their everlasting references to links of their own to help us "ignoramuses" figure out how to manuever through life's torturous mazes. We somehow figure things out without such experts. Townhall should outlaw all such references using links, it clutters the posts and angers normal people. Somehow, we will survive without the Sams giving us our marching orders.

The New Philosophy
"Sum ergo sum" has morphed into "Sum ergo mereo."

You Tube...
...ought to be banned!

OTOH,if it was,we would be getting more posts on threads.I don't know which is worse.

Entitlements
I, too, wonder why some people expect the federal government to bail them out of their home mortgages when the "variable" part of variable rate mortgage kicks in.

As George Will pointed out, the sub-prime "victims" are not a large part of the total of all mortgagees. The so-called "predatory" lenders are a figment of the left's demagoguery.

The left continues its march toward creating a socialist America by villifying capitalism and demonizing corporations. This "housing crisis" is simply another front in the Socialist-Democrats War Against Capitalism.

I Am Puzzled
If the sub-prime market is described accurately by the statistics I read here and elsewhere, where are all the "bank losses" that are announced coming from? Interest rates on credit cards are still high, most homeowners continue to make their mortgage payments and the government wants to use my tax dollars to give money to the banks. The banks that make up the IMF have announced huge holdings of gold they want to sell--I don't get it. Someone that does , please explain these losses. I saw one figure of $1 trillion dollars--and that is a lot of houses.

Predatory Lending
I used to be such a nice person, so easy going. You'd have had to be mean to my children or burn down my house to make me angry. Now, I'm turning into such a curmudgeon. Even a perfectly innocuous phrase, like "predatory lending," sets me off. Well, OK, so it's not so innocuous. How can you differentiate "predatory lending" from "encouraging home ownership with easy qualifying"?

Well, maybe I am still pretty easy going. Maybe only one thing pisses me off, the filthy damned Democrats and their damned filthy lies!

Even that dark cloud, however, may have a silver lining: We have seen how, for the past eight years, they would say anything, no matter how dishonest, now matter what it might do to our country at war, no matter that they had to contradict what all the Democrats had been saying, right up until they lost the election of 2000, to get back into the seat of power. Now, their desperate lust for power is shown even more starkly, in their willingness to do these things to one another. How good it is, to see thieves fall out!

just an inevitable correction.
I am not sure the left is the primary demon on this housing mortgage problem, altho the left does favor programs designed to make home purchasing available to folks with moderate to low incomes...whose incomes may not justify such purchases.

But then the right also thinks that homeownership is a virtue, infusing homeowners with a "sense of responsibility" for their property.

You can argue tht both groups were complicit here.

I think as with any "bubble", there was this "easy money" mindset, where houses continued to rise in value at unsustainable rates, and lots of folks purchased housing with little or no downpayments, falsely believing houses would always increase in value, immunizing them from financial difficulty.

Some homeowners purchased additional homes as speculators, deeming themselves suddenly savvy sophisticates on financial matters.

And as they thought housing values would always increase, they recklessly borrowed against their equity, spending that money for vacations, big screen televisions, new cars and trucks, etc.

This feeding frenzy has hit a brick wall.

I feel sorry for those caught up in this predicament, but as with the nastaq bubble of the late 1990s, they had to know this thing could not last.




Predatory Lending
Another fact that doesn't get mentioned enough is that these lenders have actually been mandated by law to go into the not-so-wealthy neighborhoods with their loans, to encourage homeownership among certain minorities.

Predatory lending
In my area, there was some predatory lending. And to answer Michael's question (How can you differentiate "predatory lending" from "encouraging home ownership with easy qualifying"?), predatory lending is where an appraisal is made of the property that overstates its value, which means that the homeowner owes more than he should.

I'm not saying that this is what happened in most of these cases. But it did happen in some, and of course the left has run with it, imagining it happened in all cases. Mostly, it was people who didn't understand mortgages. I've said it before and I'll say it again: this stuff should be taught in school.

Whining About Whining
The terrible injustices planted on those who are in debt trouble is a real tear jerker. None could see this coming as they spent way beyond their means. Republicans and Democrats are responsible for these fiascos. Student loans cheap, house flippers getting mortgages they should not have and "high" cost of oil -- all designed by politicians. There is plenty of oil in Alaska and off the shores in the Atlantic, Pacific and Gulf. Congressional oversight of the financial "institutions" - silly boy.

Micael, jerebaub,JFP
Agree, agree. As for being taught in school, what can be taught is only common sense, cause and effect, basically that there is no such thing as a free lunch. Anything more gets lost into details, you can't cover every scam or boo boo, and if you could, by the time the kid is on the street, the info is as obsolete as the vacuum tube theory that formed most of my BSEE electronic education.

All is hardly rosy
Will brings up optimistic points, but there are a couple very large changes in the world economic doings that bode ill for the US. Since WWII, we have benefitted hugely from inputs of investment and brainpower from all over the world. A Chinese shopkeeper in Trinidad used to want his assets in dollars in a Swiss bank. No longer. An Indian doctor or engineer with a new degree came to America to make a living because his local economy would not provide a job. No longer. Economic growth depends on investment and brainpower and these are going elsewhere. I see no reason to believe this trend will be reversed, and many reasoned to believe it will accelerate. I don't agree with everything Sam says, but i am bearish on the dollar, and tailoring my investments to profit from a falling and inflating dollar. George Soros became a billionaire through currency manipulation. Its quite possible his manipulation of American politics is intended to provide opportunities for further gains.

Yes, Sam, it's a free country...
I'm one of the guys Will talks about (the 96%)who saved for a down payment, bought a house we could afford,and never missed a payment on any loan, which isn't hard to do when you only have to remember your house and occasional car loan...never borrowed for anything other than those two...trouble is, since I worked my way through college some 35-40 years ago and never borrowed for that either, I can't, as Will suggests may happen, get in line for help with college loans...I was free to do these things, this being a fre country and all...

My position, thus, mirrors Sam's, in that I agree it's a free country so those who freely chose to live outside their means are certainly free to clean up their own mess...or, since it is still a free country, get second, third or however many jobs it takes to have more means to live within...this being a free country and all...

hmmmm
I have said for years that one day Congress is going to pass a new law and it is that retirement age is now at least 70-72 and "sorry suckers but just think of how much you can get when and if you make it to the new retirement age", hey wait and see. the country is bankrupt in entilement programs and how to pay for them without raising taxes to 60%

What a country of pathetic whiners
Scapegoating, blame shifting any excuse to NOT take personal responsibility. Don't look now but your kids are being inculcated with victimology and political correctness at your local schools by Marxist/socialists like Hill and Barry. As Mr. Will so capably describes, it seems everyone has adopted this attitude. Sickening...

Back in the fifties, I had two uncles (Mom's brothers) who would work when the weather was nice, and then go on unemployment when the seasons changed, mostly drinking, carousing, hunting and fishing. As a kid I thought that looked like a pretty good deal, BUT my Dad was aghast, and pointed out that perfectly able bodied men who would goof off and not work, WERE NOT MEN...

I also remember in the early sixties when we got a MasterCard in the mail. Mom opened it, read the terms and conditions and left in on the table with the rest of the mail for Dad to go through when he got home from work. Again, from a CHILD'S perspective, I was thinking about all the neat stuff we could CHARGE. Dad took one look at the card, then reached for the kitchen shears and cut it up into little pieces. He said that if we didn't have enough money to buy what we needed, we would either save for it, or go without - we WOULD NOT be putting it on a credit card at 20% interest.

We used to have people running the country who thought like my Dad, but like him I'm afraid they have died. I'm 59, but being very healthy and still making good $ in the job market, I plan on working until 65 or even 70 (don't tell my wife), and why shouldn't I? I enjoy my work and there is lots of stuff I'm saving up for. My credit score is 804 and got there from little use.

Changing your plans?
"A Kansas City man had been eager to retire to Arizona but now, the Journal says, "figures he'll stay put for another couple of years." He is 59."

It's a terrible shame that some people are having their plans changed like that. Let's see, um, has that ever happened to me?

Well, there was the time that ... and then, when ...

Actually, what is life if not a long series of changing plans?

I was going to plant my garden today, but it's raining.


jfp
Though I agree:

"I've said it before and I'll say it again: this stuff should be taught in school."

Keep in mind that the government schools are far too busy teaching fuzzy math, reinvented history and re-distributing the wealth.

Woody from Iowa

Government
"Government isn't the solution to our problem; government is the problem," Ronald Regan

Get the nanny state out of my life!!We have paid our own way all our life. We saved up and bought a used house that we could afford. Why should we have to pay for irresponsibility and greed and corrupt power mongers that want to own everybody?
As for the abundance of oil off shore and in Alaska that would make gas prices low? The stinking democrats care more about the caribou who like to get warm by the oil pipelines than people. Kill the people, save the caribou.
BTW: Please send some global warming to Montana. I am sick of being cold!


Get Serious
So, let's see. I bought a house in 2000 for, say, $100K and put down a big downpayment of $20K . My house appraciates to, say, $250K by the end of 2006 and now it is worth "only" $225K. Boy am I s--- out if luck. I "only" have a gain of $125K, which comes to having equity of "only" $145K, not counting my paydown of principal. How terrible, I "only" turned my investment of $20K into nearly $150K in 7 years. Oh by the way, stocks, as mseasured by the S&P 500, were flat over than period.

Oh I know, we have folks who bought at the top and now are wiped out. Many of them, of course, put little or nothing down and thus lost little or nothing.

Well said , roadmaster !
"It's a free country" - That used to mean the freedom to succeed or fail were ours. The entitlement crowd believes instead that any desirable thing is a right, and should be free.
Why should I have to pay the 1st or 2nd mortgage of a neighbor who bought more house, car, boat, plasma screen, etc. than he could afford?

A local bank ran ads 2-3 years ago selling Home Equity lines of credit in which they equated having equity in one's home as some sort of (gasp) disease!
Horrors!
These massive amounts of equity stood in between the troubled homeowner and the happy happyland of possessing "stuff".

Owning things is fine, I'm no ascetic, but borrowing to aquire things that drop in value is financially silly, and puts the borrower in voluntary servitude to the lender. Bye bye, freedom.

Facts don't matter
The MSM will never air any story that does not jive with their view that Mr & Mrs (or Mr & Mr) Average Working-Class, Home-owning American is being squeezed by "predatory" lenders, and Big Oil Companies, who are making obscene profits. That iconic couple is in danger of losing the home they have worked for so honestly for years, and if only the Government Would Do Something, everything would be all right.

I can picture the Soviet-era posters that could illustrate the Left's picture of our world. They'd even have capitalists running around in top hats and morning coats like Uncle Moneybags from Monopoly.

Mr. Will's numbers and observations are correct, but the media will not touch them, and too few people who watch or read the MSM are willing to think skeptically about the stories.

What's next? Here's where I differ with Mr. Will. The ridiculous claim for bailout won't be student loans, it'll be for gambling losses. After all, losing at cards in a casino is just like losing in the housing market when you can't flip that investment property. So, why shouldn't the Government take money away from The Rich and give it to me, when I can't tell when to get up from the table, or couldn't realize that gambling has inherent risk and long odds of success? I'm not responsible for my own actions, everyone else is.

Hillary delenda est.

entitlements and the loss of freedom
Hey, tell you what I'm going to do. I will take away from this guy, sic (the rich), and give it to you sic(the poor). Since there are more poor people than rich people, then these snake oil salesmen and women, will promise every body. When there are no more rich people, then watch out. then they will begin to take away from YOU. I have never seen a group of people go to their hangings singing halleluiah all the way.

entitlements and the loss of freedom
Hey, tell you what I'm going to do. I will take away from this guy, sic (the rich), and give it to you sic(the poor). Since there are more poor people than rich people, then these snake oil salesmen and women, will promise every body. When there are no more rich people, then watch out. then they will begin to take away from YOU. I have never seen a group of people go to their hangings singing halleluiah all the way.

George
"....Deranged by the entitlement mentality fostered by a metastasizing welfare state, ..."

Your I have mine you go to heck mentality is sickening. All you have done is consume the resources of past generations and not replaced them. Now all is used up or badly worn and you fools are saying wait, no go on.... Look Milton is proven wrong and all your conservative borrow and spend mentality has done is prove Keynes was correct. Now that the sorry little conservative experiment is over let's rebuild the country and get it back on track to a future we ALL can be proud of. Oh, stop whining....

theBaron
"...Facts don't matter "

Oh see they do and the facts are we have lost our place vis a vie the rest of the world and we are no better off than we were years ago. The current airlines fiasco is a classic example of incompetent and underfunded government. You know can add the immigrant problem, the poison toy problem and on and on... You know I get tired of you folks saying fear the government yet in much of the world it is the other way around the government fears the people. Which view do you think our founding fathers would approve of?

Savage99
I agree that teaching details of scams and mistakes would be obsolete by the time they got taught.

On the other hand, lots of educated people (like my wife) do not understand how mortgages work. Teaching them that would be an improvement over what we now have. And, believe it or not, some have never heard the phrase "there's no such thing as a free lunch." Or, "if it sounds too good to be true, then it is." Hearing it in school might be the first time they will have heard it.

HalD
HalD wrote: "The current airlines fiasco is a classic example of incompetent and underfunded government."
-------------------------------------------------
How do more funds create competence?
-------------------------------------------------
Obama on Education
“I don’t want to send another generation of American children to failing
schools. I don’t want that future for my daughters. I don’t want that
future for your sons. I do not want that future for America.”
- Barack Obama
Jefferson-Jackson Dinner, Des Moines, Iowa
November 10, 2007
-------------------------------------------------

Obama Solution: Determine those teachers that ARE doing their job and pay them more.

Obama doesn't tell us whether preferences, quotas or affirmative action will be used to determine those teachers who are doing their job.

Teachers who are causing the "failing schools" will continue to teach - according to the Obama plan.

It is estimated that 3.2 million teachers will teach the 49.6 million students in 2007-2008.

Logically one could conclude that a significant number of teachers are contributing to the "failing schools" syndrome. Assume 10%, that means 320,000 teachers are teaching 4,960,000 students - that leaves each state (on average) with 100,000 students with a failed education.

Obama doesn't inform us to why those "failure contributors" shouldn't be doing something else.

The Obama plan for education:

If you are doing the job you were hired to do, I will pay you more than your current pay.

If you are NOT doing the job you were hired to do, I will continue your current pay.

Retired Geek
I am for Hillary but a question for you. Do you believe in rewarding excellence?

HalD
What does Hillary think of big government?
What is her plan in reducing incompetence in government?
How would Hillary handle the incompetence of the FAA?
-------------------------------------------------
Employers in America
Top Five Employers in United States of America
-------------------------------------------------
1) US government 1,800,000 excludes Military.
2) Walmart 1,800,000
3) United States Postal Sevice 678,782
4) McDonalds 447,000
5) United Parcel Service 407,000
-------------------------------------------------
Average Salary of Federal Employee 64,684
Average Benefits of Federal Employee 46,496
------------------------------------ =======
------------------------------------ 111,180

5.74 billion in credit card fraud by FED employees

An Agriculture Department employee fraudulently wrote 180 convenience checks for more than

$642,000 to a live-in boyfriend over a six-year period. The money was used for gambling, car
and mortgage payments, dinners and retail purchases.

This does not include "contractors" that actually do the work FED employees are not
competent to do even though they are qualified for the position.

Retired Geek
"HalD wrote: "The current airlines fiasco is a classic example of incompetent and underfunded government."
-------------------------------------------------
How do more funds create competence? "

There you go again trying to put words in my mouth. Two problems: one, incompetence and two, underfunding i.e. not enough workers to do a job and they are supervised by individuals too weak like General Kelley at Walter Reed who did not speak up but who went along trying to do a job he knew he did not have the personnel to do or like Arabian horse "Brownie" had no clue how to do the job he was hired to do.

I guess
it is now time to change the name of what's left of America.

Welcome to the United Socialist States of America!
Why did we get these people?--Where did they come from?
I WANT MY DAMN COUNTRY BACK!!!
Socialist Liberals, i'm talking to YOU!!!!

The Why's we as a Nation are failing
The Why's we as a Nation are failing or becoming like Europe .
It's simple actually . After WW 2 Europe because of the horrible conditions there (where the war was fought ) Made Big Government move into "Socialism ".
The problem being after those countries slowly became more $ stable the more these receiving this social welfare programs wanted more and more of them . The USA on the other hand had geared up to fight two wars abroad so the closest thing we did was help our Vet's will college and one time home loans "If" they qualified .
America was a nation on fire as a capitalist nation .
But now we are copying Europe so we are failing S because we are become a socialist nation as well

HalD
Will Hillary find the competent within the 1,800,000 Federal Employees and reward them financially for excellence?

Will Hillary fire all of those found incompetent?

Retired Geek
Oh stop it you don't think people should be paid a decent wage? You scream about government employee but Bear Stearns gets gentle treatment and the heads still walk away with millions??? No biod contracts to Halliburton et al Oil industry contractions to oligopoly size, shall I go on? The buiggest expansions of government work force has been under Ronnie and Bush the torturer. So please stop picking isolated examples of malfeasence and get real. Is "big government" bad by definition? Not at all - if it does the job. It seems to me that conservatives much prefer monopolies to competition

Let the buyer BEWARE
What ever happened to that old adage.Couple of years ago I bought a time share it looked good at the time but didn't turn out that way.Too much money for what I got,so I am going to write my senators to seek financial relief for my stupidity.However since that time I have bought others that were pretty good buys.So you see I didn't remember buyer beware.

pandm
"....I WANT MY DAMN COUNTRY BACK!!!..."

The country you want back NEVER existed except in your rosie glasses. But a country like you want already exists it is Nigeria why not move there and see if you like it?

sam
"...The USA on the other hand had geared up to fight two wars abroad so the closest thing we did was help our Vet's will college and one time home loans "If" they qualified ."

That geared up was NATIONALIZING the US economy we succeeded even before our enemies. That closest thing was the GI Bill and it was the largest social program in our history and was the reason we became an undisputed superpower and won the cold war. Not bad for a touch of "socialism" was it

"America was a nation on fire as a capitalist nation ."

We were much more "socialist" then than we are now and sadly we are far worse off for that

HalD
HalD wrote: "The buiggest expansions of government work force has been under Ronnie and Bush the torturer."
-------------------------------------------------

Could you post a link or give us a source for these statistics?

I like Larry Kudllows thoughts
that recessions are cleasing. We needed cleasing.

As for teachers, having worked with them, I found most very hard working but none-the-less, I think they need to know as everyone else knows,they can be fired.

Having said most teachers are hard working, I need also to point out they can't do the job by themselves.

I think of two working parents who hardly have time to survive much less supervise homework, have supper time discussions or to visit museums etc.

I think of Detroit with a mostly black population and one of the worst districts in the country and yet is completely black run including the city administration. It seems much must be done by blacks themselves especially in the area of moving away from the notion learning is acting white. Emphasis on costly clothes and jewelry for which muggings frequently occur should be rejected. Out of wedlock births to teenagers needs to be condemned thereby alleviating the poverty coming out of such births. Government cannot do the job for them.

Retired Geek
"Could you post a link or give us a source for these statistics? "

Nope they are public record look them up

loco
Why pick on black Detroit when a huge part of the problem you mention is with whites in rural areas there is where your welfare/disability system is largest

Entitlements
Everybody who wants to work until they are 75 please stand up. Everybody who wants to give up Medicare and Social Security please stand up. Every body who wants to work til they are 75 please stand up. These columnists make entitlements sound like the plague. They have problems sure, they need taxes to make them happen of course!. But they are not the only financial problem that is putting our economy down the drain. Take a look at these figures.

national debt ($9 trillion), high corporate debt ($9 trillion), high mortgage debt (over $10 trillion as of 2005 year-end), high unfunded Medicare liability ($30 trillion), high unfunded Social Security liability ($12 trillion), and high external debt (amount owed to foreign lenders), high trade deficits, and a serious deterioration in the United States net international investment position (NIIP) (-24% of GDP).

We have had 8 years of idiotic fiscal management. it is going to take years, if ever, to correct the damage.


Compassion
I struggle with the idea of compassion as modernly comprised. How does one distinguish justifiable compassion from pity in response to self-pity, which is not justifiable? Should adults who are free to contract be pitied for making promises they can't keep when free adults should know the difference between promises they can and can't keep? At what point should I shrug and say, "You should have known better"?

Liberty and security are oil and water: they set one another off because they do not mix. If we ask the state to protect us from ourselves, even in our freely negotiated and concluded agreements, then we shall have no liberty. If this is what Americans want, then I shall never return.

chicaree
"We have had 8 years of idiotic fiscal management. it is going to take years, if ever, to correct the damage. "

You got it

The Declaration of Independence
Wonderful article!
Let's look at the DOI again;

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and Happiness...

Wait! Something doesn't look right. Hmmmmm. Any liberals note what's missing? :)

RCB
"Liberty and security are oil and water: they set one another off because they do not mix. If we ask the state to protect us from ourselves, even in our freely negotiated and concluded agreements, then we shall have no liberty. "

I would guess that our frightened and panicked reaction to terrorists and giving up personal liberties are much more likely to do away with liberty. Why some Americans even want the government in our bedrooms and bodies. Hard to believe but far more dangerous to liberty than any social program

HalD
Are you making up your own facts again?
Is Hillary a collectivist?
-------------------------------------------------

"We need to stop worrying about the rights of the individual and start worrying about what is best for society." -- Hillary Clinton

"We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good." -- Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, June 28, 2004.

A second thought
I can't do numbers! They don't compute in my brain, however, everyone complains about prices going down without mentioning, what seems to me, the obvious.
The vast majority of people that want to sell their houses are buying another house. Doesn't that even itself out? Doesn't that mean the 'tragedy' isn't as bad as it sounds?
Or is it more complicated than that?

Ups & downs
Often the phrase "America is in decline" is used to describe how we measure up financially and via standard of living compared to the rest of the world. It is more accurate to say that we are in a relative decline when compared to the rest of the world.

Our standard of living has improved, but so has the standard of living in other countries. That standard may not measure up to what we perceive as acceptable but it is better than what many of these countries had before.

If we are so bad off then why is it that we have such a difficult time keeping people from crossing our borders. Why is it that others still want to immigrate to America.

Capitalism has raised the standard of living in this country for those who have participated. It can never raise the standard of living to those who do not participate. There is an ebb and flow to commerce.

There is one thing that I have discovered. During an election year the economy is always bad. This must be true because I heard it on the news. Hmmmm ! I wonder....

Tibby

Warrior
The excessive losses we are seeing are the result of overcorrecting like any bubble whether it is the stock market or real estate, it always goes up further than it should and then crashes further then it should before coming back. It is the result of banks not holding mortgages but securitizing them and using the money to make more. This was the result of government that created Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and their ilk which have mostly accomplished their goals of making home ownership available to more people.

The current problem in the financial sector is that these packages of loans became hot potatoes and they didn't realize it. When the crash came from foreclosures and declining home values, those holding large packages of loans were left holding the hot potatoe. The purchasers of these loans are no longer buying, waiting to see the full fallout. This renders these packages vitually worthless even though the underlying mortgages are not all bad and the percentage that are will not be known for some time thus rendering the entire group worthless at this particular point in time. This is what is crushing the financial sector.

The value of these packages of loans will return when the full extent of the housing crisis is realized. They are paper losses, still by marking to market, the current value of such holdings is very low until the market comes back.

It is a question of what percentage of those loans will actually go bad. As Mr. Will states, so far, they are relatively few but, the ultimate purchasers of the these loan packages are taking a wait and see attitude and the sellers are currently unable to sell at any price.

The fed has opened the discount window to provide the liquidity to keep them going enterprises until the paper losses are eliminated through a stabilizing home market.

glome
Inheritance tax, tell me if georgie porgie was born equal he could have falied in the oil business

Chicaree, make 28 years

Good Luck
Unless some of you conveniently forget, this country had a Republican President and House, and also a Republican Senat for much of this so called "boom". Whatever laws re-existed the year 2000, they could have changed those laws, and did not. Entitlements, subsequent to social security, have been a bi-party issue as well. Check the votes of medicare, medicaid, and the drug entitlement act. At the same time, we doubled the social security tax under Reagan, and then used that money elsewhere. There is no social security crisis, but there is a serious problem with the large chronic deficts that we have run for the last seven years - going on 8. The GOP is equally - if not more so - responsible for this as well. They had the power - but they did the spending for all but one of these years. Trying to give the GOP a pass doesn't square with the facts. The harsher reality is that at best, 1/3 of those who vote for the GOP are what we might call fiscal conservatives. The rest are not. Because of this, those that vote routinely return the very senators and congressmen to office that are responsible for the combination of budget deficits, high trade deficits in a time of a dollar that has declined by 1/3 in 5 years, and the fact that the costs of entitlements are rising faster than revenues. These issues, not this short term blip in housing, are the critical economic issues that we face. Now, would one of you apologists for the GOP care to give me the parties/presidential candidates position on what they intend to do to resolve these increasingly serious and chronic issues? Good luck.

HalD
HalD wrote: "not enough workers to do a job"
-------------------------------------------------
Now that you have established that the federal employee staff - is to small.

Your complaint that Reagan and Bush increased federal employees more than any other president (which is patently untrue) should have given you great hope in conservatism. Why would you want a liberal president?

HalD
HalD wrote: "We were much more "socialist" then than we are now and sadly we are far worse off for that"
-------------------------------------------------

HalD wrote that Socialism has been reduced under the Bush administration and that makes the country worse off.

HalD are you saying socialism should replace capitalism?

jondo
Are you responding to the post where I said how dumb I was? I hope so because I have no idea what you said to me :)
N u m b e r s do not compute ... sometimes ideas don't either. Break it down into lots of long sentences.

To the Trolls
Posting on these threads. Remember Freedom of Speech is a wonderful blessing. It is guaranteed by our Constitution and protected by the sacrifices of blood, sweat and tears by our brave men and women in our Armed Forces. If this is not obvious to you, I encourage you to go out to your nearest National Cemetery and count the headstones.
Your postings will be monitored by the LWN squad. I warn you, the members of the squad, especially the Ladies, have mastered the art of slicing and dicing. I f you want to depart with your backside intact, I suggest that you walk carefully or you’ll step on a land mine. Remember the Force is with the LWN.

Retired Geek
no, credit default swaps will replace capitalism

Retired Geek
HalD wrote: "not enough workers to do a job"
Ask him does he know what has happened to 50M of them.

Beware of the Geek bearing gifts or else you'll end up like troy

HalD and jondo
jondo do you believe that Hillary is the best choice to advance socialism like HalD does?

LWN Squad

Mount up and prepare to do battle!! Sir Harold of Scranton Manor, his faithful slightly deranged squire Wobbi, together with other knights of the square table;’Sir Boutte, Sir Dogg, etal are posting their inane and mindless drivel on the threads today. They will be accompanied by numerous Ladies-in-Waiting; Lilly, Kimberly, Sophie, etal. Victory will be ours if we are united in our efforts to destroy these trolls. May the Force be with you.

LWN Squad

Mount up and prepare to do battle!! Sir Harold of Scranton Manor, his faithful slightly deranged squire Wobbi, together with other knights of the square table;’Sir Boutte, Sir Dogg, etal are posting their inane and mindless drivel on the threads today. They will be accompanied by numerous Ladies-in-Waiting; Lilly, Kimberly, Sophie, etal. Victory will be ours if we are united in our efforts to destroy these trolls. May the Force be with you.

Sam
"That is completely untrue. Under John F. Kennedy the Federal income tax rate was 2%. World War II we did not have medicare and medicaid as entitlements eating up our budget."

During WWII the entire US economy was nationalised period end stop. There was no capitalism let alone "pure" capitalism

"....That is why John F. Kennedy was assasinated...."

OK ok now that I know what you are ....wooop,woop, woop here come the black choppers woop, woop, woop


Willi Beax
HalD is good at making up facts. Robert is good at not understanding anything. Together I call it the "HalBert" disorder.

HalBerts always maintain that their solutions would succeed if more funds, more compassion and more acceptance were exercised.

HalBerts suffer a type of serious mental disorder called a "psychosis" in which HalBerts cannot tell what is real from what is imagined.

The main feature of the HalBert disorder is the presence of delusions, which are unshakable beliefs in something untrue.


Retired Geek
"Now that you have established that the federal employee staff - is to small. "

Oh I have????

"Your complaint that Reagan and Bush increased federal employees.... Why would you want a liberal president? "

It is about competency and Bush the torturer is very, very incompetent as bad or worse than Clinton even...

Retired Geek
actually I think public financed elections will advance our country and society as a whole

Regulated capitalism seemed to work.

If I chose to change my own oil in my car does that make me a socialist? If I dump the waste oil in your yard does make me a capitalist.

Retired Geek/robert
"Are you making up your own facts again?"

If so show me from a reputable site

Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country... JFK

You deadbeats really just take and refuse to pay back all that society now and then invested in you.

Robert
LOL Sorry about that

I don't know how it will play out we seem to be excellent at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory

Retired Geek
Sir Harold of Scranton Manor aka oberleutnant Klink whines and moans about torture. The LWN squad did a little investigating and discovered that Sir Harold once served as a covert CIA agent. He probably knows all about waterboarding.

Retired Geek
HalBert!! That's great!! HAAAAAAAAAA!! HAAAAAAAAA!

Of course it's not
... an existential tragedy that someone has to delay his retirement from 59 to 62.

That, however, is not proof positive that declining home values won't affect the economy, including put it in recession for some period of time.

One more time, folks: the economic benefit of rising home prices is increasing home equity. Home equity backs more than 80% of small business start-up and expansions, which in turn generate 70% of new jobs in ANY quarter. Doesn't matter which one. Any quarter: 70% of new jobs, from small business.

Hom equity also backs major consumption like home improvement, and even other expenditures like college tuition. When home equity is unavailable (or when householders are concerned it WILL be) for minor consumption like HDTVs, it is also unavailable for the investment purposes to which moral pesssimists tend to forget that people put it.

You can't convince people whose household wealth has been cut in half (or by more) that they are not experiencing a recession. We had one in the early 1990s, incident to the real estate recession mentioned by Will. Yes, we will climb back out of this one, as we did out of that one, if we will stop tinkering with every damn little thing in the economy. But let's stop, already, with the moral pessimism lectures about how people are expecting too much today. Recession isn't about whether you feel sorry for yourself -- must of us don't! It's about how your household bottom line has dropped over the past two years. It has, for a whole lot of us who are still paying our bills -- but are also tightening our belts and battening down our hatches. Translation: less economic activity for us, period. Less investment. Less business created for others. Recession -- for however long it lasts.

HalBert disorder
I am off to an event with my wife.

Those trying to communicate with those afflicted with HalBert disorder should know this:

HalBerts are being harrassed by authorities. Several HalBert rules have been passed by "right wing meanies" who single them out.
-------------------------------------------------
It is now illegal for HalBerts to catch fish with a lasso.

It is now illegal for HalBerts to sleep on top of a refrigerator outdoors.

It is now illegal for HalBerts to walk through any Wal-Mart wearing scuba flippers, fish-net stockings, red polka dot boxers held up with 3" wide yellow suspenders, a tinfoil hat and a flashlight in each hand illuminating their hats singing endless verses of "This foil hat of mine, I like to make it shine".
-------------------------------------------------
The Ninth circuit has ruled in favor of HalBerts:
HalBerts cannot be charged with being drunk as long as they can hold onto the foor.


Sam
writes,"That is called socializing losses on bad debt. The real definition is called increasing the money supply throught the discount window or inflating the currency by means of fractional reserve banking. It is a scheme to prop up banks that have taken serious losses on their balance sheet through bad loans. Let the BANKS DEFAULT.

However Americans get to see their purchasing power erode because the politicians are to scared to raise taxes to directly subsidize the banks losses. They use another means such as opening the discount window to banks. A FREE MARKET ECONOMY. WHAT A JOKE. "

First of all, nobody yet is socializing the losses. That is proposed. The fed is simply loaning money and holds collateral for that money so there is little inflationary impact in that. Have reserve requirements changed? No. That is a tool that has basically never been used. We have essentially the same reserve requirements for the past fifty years. This is not 1913, and we are not arguing the formation of this system. The scaremongering of fractional reserve banking has failed to materialize in almost one hundred years.

The behavior of the Fed during the Great Depression was deplorable, economic knowledge was still in its infancy. Your proposal to return total control of the money supply to congress would result in exactly the fears you claim to have for the Fed. They would simply inflate the money supply to solve their ills at our expense.

Sam, many of your fears are grounded in some substance but, you are blaming the wrong entity and your solution would be worse than the problem. Congress is the problem and giving them control over the money supply and banking system would doom us.

Hal
Please explain to the rest of us why you think Socialism should be the goal for America.
Just give an answer please.

Hal the enemy Propagandist!
"Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory"?
Isn't that what you Kerry wannabes keep trying to do?
Like;
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/john-kerry-gained-fame-t hanks-to-phony-soldiers

You are such a fan of JFK?
Do these words sound familiar?
"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty."
They were a part of John F. Kennedy's 1961 Inaugural Address.

You still did not answer my question.
If you wanted to help defeat America and cause us to loose the Iraq war just like Vietnam;
What else would you do that you are not doing right now?
As the Progressive you are RIGHT NOW, not assuming other form or hypothetical pretense.
Can you think of anything you have not done already?

Redlac
Good comments. Let me take a stab at it. Hillary or Obama and the democrats would of course raise taxes when the entitlement tsunami reaches shore as the most politically expedient solution. Put us into a depression through tax increases on the wealthy. Convert us finally into a European socialist stagnating mess. McCain would blame the corporate world or previous congresses and presidents as the boogeymen and propose spreading the pain evenly through tax increases and entitlement cuts doing a little less harm but, still pushing us toward a European socialist economic malaise.

Basically, we are screwed because most of the people want the government to take care of them so we are going to become a European socialist decadent society whether we like it or not. Our only hope is that the population wakes up and has an alternative political option to excercise which seems unlikely.

pandm
The American Heritage® Dictionary: socialism (n.) Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.

"Please explain to the rest of us why you think Socialism should be the goal for America."

I do not think "socialism" should be a "goal" for America. However, do check the definition of socialism you clearly do not understand the term. You confuse nearly every form of social cooperation or social investment as "Socialism" which clearly it is not. But then again, you extreme conservatives try and do that with many words I think "amnesty" was the last one

MyOpine
You are such a fan of JFK?
Do these words sound familiar?
"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty."
They were a part of John F. Kennedy's 1961 Inaugural Address."

Love that quote now compare that to the Bush Regime's "Go shop" or how about "war??? so what charge it - taxs cuts for all"

Hitchhiker
I will concede all three possible Presidents are incompetent and have their heads screwed on cross threaded.

It is not as depressing as it looks though.
They can do no harm that Congress does not allow.

People like these could help greatly!
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/03/iraq_vets_for_congre ss.html

MyOpine/Hitchhiker
"I will concede all three possible Presidents are incompetent and have their heads screwed on cross threaded.

It is not as depressing as it looks though.
They can do no harm that Congress does not allow."

60 plus senate, veto proof house. That rushing noise that you hear is the fundamentalist conservatism of Rush et al being flushed down the toilet of history. The vast majority of the American people now realise what a disaster the whole believe system is.....

Hal the enemy Propagandist!
YOU BUSHOPHOBES ARE SO STUPID YOU ARE INCAPABLE OF LEARNING!

How many times to you need to be told that Bush is not a Conservative?

How many times do you have to be told that YOU elected Bush!
YOU elected Bush by DEFAULT when you allowed MSM to dictate THIS for your candidate;
http://www.kerrystreason.com/index.html

AND; YOU let MSM pick non viable candidates AGAIN!
AND; YOU will spend the next 4 years crying and complaining!
YOU Socialists chose to crossover and elect what you thought was the weakest candidate for Republicans.
America will stuff McCain up you butt because you are going to run another candidate America HATES!
The only way you Socialists can win any election is by illegal votes, stuffing ballot boxes and voting posthumously.
That is hardly the will of the Governed.
You know full well you can't win an honest election or you would not resort to such measures in every election.

That is all you Socialists seem to be good for!
Whimpering, complaining and badmouthing your own Country and our Military!

Hal the enemy Propagandist!
You haven't made your usual snide remark about my age yet today?
I am proud of my Age Hal. Except for war years, my life has been very pleasing to me.
I do not have your vices and probably am in better health than you are.

You will never live long enough to experience old age Hal
I am proud of my age.
Are YOU proud of being an obese drunk with his brain damaged by alcohol?

Your fantasy of winning elections?
You think the illegals who come here to escape oppression and poverty are all stupid!
America is one of the few places one can come to escape poverty & oppression. Do you think THEY are stupid enough to vote in a Socialist Tyrant?

You still did not answer my question.
If you wanted to help defeat America and cause us to loose the Iraq war just like Vietnam;
What else would you do that you are not doing right now?
As the Progressive you are RIGHT NOW, not assuming other form or hypothetical pretense.
Can you think of anything you have not done already?

MyOpine
"How many times to you need to be told that Bush is not a Conservative?"

Sure he is. He is EXACTLY what you get when you preach everyman for themselves and guess what you got him


Hal Donahue Sunday, 04/13/2008 11:04 AM

Hal said, "Your, I have mine you go to heck, mentality is sickening."

The earliest American colonial settlement was Jamestown. 12 years later the Pilgrims arrived at Plymouth. In both instances, the settlements were established as communal, i.e. all property was jointly owned by the community, and all members worked and received equal shares from the community pot. This is true communism at the core.

What happened is that the lazier individuals began to work less. They would find time to goof off, go fishing, take a nap, and/or do nothing. At the same time, when meal times came around, they were willing to partake equally with the industrious. The industrious workers saw the lazy ones getting by and so they too began to slow down in their endeavors. It got to the point that the crops were not producing as much as possible and the settlements were suffering. People were actually beginning to starve.

The solution was proposed by the governmental and religious leaders that the community property would divided among the people and each person would be responsible for his own family’s food and welfare. This led to the American concept of self-reliance. From that time forward, the communities began to flourish. The fruit of this concept is the country in which we now abide.

This little episode in American history demonstrates that we already experimented with communism (socialism). What would lead some of you to want to try that failed experiment again?

France underwent its own revolution; afterwards, Frenchmen were starving to death. In 1917, Lenin led the Russian revolution; after the revolution, the people began to starve under Lenin, then Stalin, then Khrushchev, then… China tried the same experiment and more starved. Look at Cuba. Look at India. Look where ever self-reliance is not practiced. Is there a pattern?

‘What’s mine is mine’ idea works. Please, allow me to manage mine and have a decision in how mine is spent.

Hal the enemy Propagandist!
I suppose to a hard line Marxist like you, Bush does look conservative.

But you still can't deny he won by DEFAULT because you Communists could not find any better candidate among you than Kerry!
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/john-kerry-gained-fame-t hanks-to-phony-soldiers

GunnyG's present to you Hal;
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0408,schanberg,51276,1.htm l

YOU are just like the rest of the Progressives.
Progressives represent "Government by Bunko Scam"
YOU represent LIES by insinuation & innuendo.
TYpical of Communists!

Birdman II
"Hal said, "Your, I have mine you go to heck, mentality is sickening."

"The earliest American colonial settlement was Jamestown. 12 years later the Pilgrims arrived at Plymouth. In both instances, the settlements were established as communal, i.e. all property was jointly owned by the community, and all members worked and received equal shares from the community pot."

It sure is socialism and no one advocates that at all. Most people do advocate cooperation and community investment and oversight


"....This led to the American concept of self-reliance. From that time forward, the communities began to flourish. The fruit of this concept is the country in which we now abide."

Utter nonsense they cooperated in mutual defense, building roads and dams etc and most taxed with labor. Remember barnbuilding?

"This little episode in American history demonstrates that we already experimented with communism (socialism). What would lead some of you to want to try that failed experiment again?"

No one does but you folks are just like the ones who would not work you suck up all the community built and provided and then want to nothing back like some deadly parasite

‘What’s mine is mine’ idea works. Please, allow me to manage mine and have a decision in how mine is spent. "

Mine is mine works ONLY if you pay your debts and fundamentalist conservatives do not

MyOpine
Don't fret when Sir Harold insults you. That means you got him where the hair is short and he is ready to tuck his tail between his legs and run like he** for the nearest exit.

Hal the enemy Propagandist!
You now claim Conservatives do not pay their debts?

Please show proof thst Conservatives are less inclined to pay their debts that you public parasites that constantly demand higher taxes so you can squander more money buying votes?

Is the cost of defending America simply a Conservative burden?
Is that what you referred to?
This?
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=913809C 9-A26E-4E20-AE27-46F92B034739

I do understand how Communists are social parasites who want to live from the efforts of others but isn't there any line you won't cross? And depth you won't slither to?

We know your Agenda;
http://web.archive.org/web/20020215003619/www.dsausa.org/pc /pc.progag.html

And we know you believe any means you use to achieve it is justified.

Sam
I Korea, I have seen currency inflated to a point where in the highest denomination printed, 4 strong men could not carry enough of it to pay for an 8 cent newspaper!

During the Great Depression, Germans were using paper money in wood stoves because it was worth less than stovewood!

And it could happen to America too!

Hal Donahue, Sunday, 04/13/2008 3:30 PM

Hal, you said, "It sure is socialism and no one advocates that at all."

Social Security IS socialism. It says so in its very name. You advocate it here. The Liberals advocate. Even some Conservatives advocate it.

I do not believe in Social Security; but you had better believe, that when I reach the magic age of 67, I am going to do the best I can to recoup what I was forced to pay by the Fed. Giverment. I will do my part to make it go bankrupt.

I still remember my 1st pay check and saw how much they stole from my hard work. No matter how you slice it, if it is not voluntarily given, then it is stealing.



Hal, "Mine is mine works ONLY if you pay your debts and fundamentalist conservatives do not"

You are demented, sir. Take your pills.



Hal, "Remember barnbuilding?"

It seems, Hal, that barn-raising was community effort of neighbors helping neighbors. Nothing (not money, not material, not work) was donated from the Giverment as I remember. All was voluntarily donated by all neighbors to assist a fellow neighbor. Isn't that the way it should be?

More...

Hal, "No one does but you folks are just like the ones who would not work you suck up all the community built and provided and then want to nothing back like some deadly parasite"

The way it was in Jamestown and Plymouth went like this... They worked, they ate. If some did not work, all mutually ate less, until they all mutually starved.

Under self-reliance, if I don't work, my family does not eat. But OTOH, if I work harder, my family eats better. This concept is ridiculously simple. Even you, Hal, should be able to understand it.

Sam
It was shortly after WW2 and a few years prior to the Korean War.
I have no idea what destabilized the money.

Birdman II
"Social Security IS socialism. It says so in its very name. You advocate it here. The Liberals advocate. Even some Conservatives advocate it."

It is NOT socialism it is a social program. Look up the definition of socialism

"I do not believe in Social Security; but you had better believe, that when I reach the magic age of 67, I am going to do the best I can to recoup what I was forced to pay by the Fed. Giverment. I will do my part to make it go bankrupt. "

Of course you will that is what being a parasite is all about...

"I still remember my 1st pay check and saw how much they stole from my hard work. No matter how you slice it, if it is not voluntarily given, then it is stealing."

Oh no that is not true at all

"Hal, "Mine is mine works ONLY if you pay your debts and fundamentalist conservatives do not"

You are demented, sir. Take your pills."

Oh really your home had no electricity, you had nothing in your home delivered by truck or plane? Better yet you grew or made everything you used or had and did it by yourself? No education, no library, heck you are using government regulated utility right now unless generating your own electrity but wait you are using the government protected and developed internet,,,

"Hal, "Remember barnbuilding?"

"...Nothing (not money, not material, not work) was donated from the Giverment as I remember. All was voluntarily donated by all neighbors to assist a fellow neighbor. Isn't that the way it should be? "

That is government

Birdman II
"..The way it was in Jamestown and Plymouth went like this... They worked, they ate. If some did not work, all mutually ate less, until they all mutually starved."

My point exactly you want to not pay your fair share or do the work necessary to maintain and improve what you used and received as a citizen of the US. I don't know how top break it to you but you are part of a whole and you owe that whole for much of what you have now

U"nder self-reliance, if I don't work, my family does not eat. But OTOH, if I work harder, my family eats better. This concept is ridiculously simple. Even you, Hal, should be able to understand it."

Oh it does and I have benefited extremely well with this system but did I do it myself? Heck no. Did I work hard and reap much yes sir BUT did I do it all by myself? No and I OWE the community that raised and nurtured me and yes invested in me something back. You have this creation myth of some kind that you stand alone. Even the west was built and developed through government money and programs - wake up PLEASEEEeee

MyOpine/Sam
Take a Look at Argentina (I have strong ties there) a few years back. In the space of a few months a house valued at 400,000 US was valued at 39,000 US. Scary and an example of what happens when currency falls apart. A German friend of mine had a long term lease on a pasture for his horse the Old guy who owned the property had long paragraphs in the contract of if inflation was this then this happened at the end If inflation exceeded 50% his rent would be adjusted twice daily at start of day and at end of business day. Just an FYI

Sam
What stabilized the money was taking control of it away from those that would benefit from its control, governments and kings.

There have been many many instances in the past where money was inflated as you fear the federal reserve is doing and it was done with gold and silver as money. It was done to benefit the king at the expense of the common man. It does not matter what we use for money. What matters is that the money supply expand and contract with the overall economy with fighting inflation as the primary goal. When strong central governments or kings control it, they use the power to offset too much government spending.

The fiscal problems of our government could be easily solved through inflation if Congress or the President could simply print more. We would suffer. The treasury dept simply prints the actual paper bills, they do not control how much of it is in circulation, however, the federal reserve does that, treasury simply carries out the discarding of old bills and issuence of new ones to replace them. They insure that a demand deposit can be converted to greenbacks on demand but, they do not control how much actual money circulates.

Placing this control into the hands of a fickle president or congress critter would insure them the option to do what many have done before, inflate their way out of debt. All that amounts to is government taking by price increases what they chose not to take through direct taxation. It has the effect of freezing commerce and bringing an economy to a standstill but, that can be blamed on conservatives failing to pay their debts according to Hal D rather than government taking over the economy.

Welfare
Welfare was intended to help people get back onto their feet, it was not intended to be a way of life as so many people are using it. The Democratic Party loves this life style for people, this way they have more control over them, then if they were working and paying taxes. If I am not wrong, isn't this how the slave owners were with their slaves, they gave them just enough to get by on, therefore, the slave had to depend on its MASTER. Thus, it was the Democrats that voted AGAINST abolshing slavery, if it were not for Independent and Republicans, we would still have legalized slaves. So the Democrats got around this by encouraging people make welfare a way of life, now how many of them are indebted to this party???? (read your history, it tells you who voted against abolishing slavery).

The Republican Party has always wanted people to be responsible for their own life, have the choice to own, work, and be what ever they want out of life, they vote against higher taxes, policies that take away our right etc.

So tell me, who do you want to govern this country for the next 4 years?

Joy of Iowa


HitchHiker
turning the economy over to the court jester and magician is not the answer. Does debt create money?

Hitchhiker
"....Placing this control into the hands of a fickle president or congress critter would insure them the option to do what many have done before, inflate their way out of debt."

Yup and conservatives love doing that even Ronnie BUT this time there is the Euro so that is not an option. I went to the Euro a few years ago when I saw the rampant conservative debt run up

"...but, that can be blamed on conservatives failing to pay their debts according to Hal D rather than government taking over the economy."

That is the same thing. One example your war in Iraq - unneccesary and very expensive. Typical deadbeat style: TAX INCREASE to pay for the war???? Heck no CHARGE IT,,, Irresponsible? you bet, deadbeat? you bet. Typical conservative? you bet

Joy
"Welfare was intended to help people get back onto their feet, it was not intended to be a way of life as so many people are using it."

That was before Reagan now it is no one cares about the lost talent. Before you go off on a rant BOTH the Libs and the nasties (covservatives) created this problem

" The Democratic Party loves this life style for people, this way they have more control over them, then if they were working and paying taxes."

Actually if you check the largest number of welfare people and very low income people are in red states

"If I am not wrong, isn't this how the slave owners were with their slaves, they gave them just enough to get by on, therefore, the slave had to depend on its MASTER."

BINGO so you agree our government programs are oefully underfunded?

"Thus, it was the Democrats that voted AGAINST abolshing slavery, if it were not for Independent and Republicans, we would still have legalized slaves."

Nah, nah technically not a lie but the slave owning ancestory lies in the R party

"The Republican Party has always wanted people to be responsible for their own life, have the choice to own, work, and be what ever they want out of life, they vote against higher taxes, policies that take away our right etc."

Actually not true at all; not even a little close

"So tell me, who do you want to govern this country for the next 4 years?"

Anyone but a conservative ANYONE

Joy of Iowa

To Meg---
In reference to your question on who should pick up the cost for the transplant operation for this illegal immigrant: Definitely not the taxpayers. If some individual or a group wants to, then that is their business.

I have seen these illegal parasites get free education, nutrition, medication, hospitalization, interpreters, etc. on the back of tax paying legal Americans for too long.

So if any whining liberals et.al. want to send us a large money order to help cover our taxes regarding these issues, then say so. If not, then whine somewhere else or you pay for these parasites.

What Meg has posted happens more all the time in a lot of medical facilities. These are entitlements that have to stop.

When you get paid for not working
or recieve money well beyond what you could have ever paid in,you're on welfare,other people are sending you a check every month.Whether It's an unreal pension that current employess don't get,disability,Social Security or whatever ,other people are paying it.I remember pissing off a disabled vet who thinks he deserves my money more than I do when I'm in the generation that gets the shaft.It's immoral and has destroyed US industry.We now have politicians that are saying to working taxpayers that other people deserve their money more than they do.It makes me sick.A lot of these welfare recipients call themselves conservatives.

SVARA/Meg
"...I have seen these illegal parasites get free education, nutrition, medication, hospitalization, interpreters, etc. on the back of tax paying legal Americans for too long."

Just a couple of simple questions. What happens if you become ill in their country? What do we do with the ill you will not treat? Put them at the curb? Dump them at the mall? Put them in your yard?

Hal the enemy Propagandist!
We know you hate America.
We know you hate Conservatives.
We know you want to live in a Communist Dictatorship.
You don't need to keep telling us these same things over & over.

Conservatives are not as thick headed as you are.
You only need to show us your colors one time!

You on the other hand are incapable of discerning the difference between a Conservative and a Communist!

Communists are the ones who want to eliminate borders, have a society where everyone is equally poor and have a "One World Government".
LIKE GEORGE BUSH!

Money?
Money simply represents earned shares the wealth of a Nation.
When the Goverment over prints, or the people underproduce for some reason, the money is devalued in direct proportion.

Fuel prices directly influence cost of production and transportation.
ALL of our present economic setback can be laid at the feet of Democrats, (AKA Progressives), who pamper the nut case Tree Huggers & Animal Rights Activist who just happen to be splinter groups of the Democrat Party, just like the ACLU, CodePink, NAMBLA, etc.

Democrats provent America from being energy independent.

blackjuju
"....I remember pissing off a disabled vet who thinks he deserves my money more than I do when I'm in the generation that gets the shaft."

LMAO thst says it all. Yup dump the old disabled vet on the curb? Do you favor or oppose euthanasia?

"It's immoral and has destroyed US industry."

Actually doing nothing has that is why Detroit is a mess - trying to compete against a much more effecient system that also provides healthcare AND pensions. Are they better and more efficient?

"We now have politicians that are saying to working taxpayers that other people deserve their money more than they do.It makes me sick.A lot of these welfare recipients call themselves conservatives. "

More than a couple gunnyg is a classic example..

I do want to say that I understand why you hate the military - caring for your buddy, all for one and trust in country. All of those are ANTI conservative, every one!

Hitchhiker do you read?
You seem to blame everything on this President and the no good Congress. Well guess what, the no good Congress are controlled by Democrats. They are the ones who VOTED to go to war and they are the ones who raised taxes.

By the way, it was not the conservatives who didn't pay their bills, it was Hillary the Democrat, or didn't you know.

Also, the war is not what is causing our economy to run up, its the PORK money that the Democrates spend on the LOBBIESTS who give them money to run on, this Congress is paying their debt to the Lobbiests with our hard earned money, called taxes.

Don't tell me you don't know the difference between Conservatives and Liberals, maybe someone out there can explain it to you. Press English if that is the language you understand.
Joy

Hal the enemy Propagandist!
What will happen to you if you become ill in Mexico without funds?
They will ship your corps to your relatives, COD!

Know what would happen if you sneaked into Mexico and tried to find employment?

You would learn a new trade, like weaving baskets or hammocks while working to earn your keep in a Mexican prison!
In those prisons, you work or you don't eat!

If you don't have enough money to bribe your way out, Mexico enforces it's laws.

There is a partial solution!
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/01/19/mexican-state-whines- about-influx-of-mexican-workers/



SVARA
I haven't read all of the posts. Some I just scroll past any time I see them. However, I read your latest. Today on CNN, there was a story about California having to cut back 10% of its budget due to a shortfall. Teachers were complaining that they had been advised that they would be laid off. Do you think California will ever make the connection between paying the costs of illegal immigration and budget problems?

Good article
George is usually "spot on" with his analysis. My only concern is how intertwined these defaulted loans are with other potentially high-risk investments. How much money does this "4%" represent? Is this a potential house of cards waiting to crash down? I am not one of the "financially literate" crowd so if someone has a good answer I'm all ears.

Hal - sick over there
Hal, I have become sick in other countries, including Mexico. What did I do? I PAID for medical treatment. I did not expect or seek free medical treatment. I was traveling LEGALLY by passport or visa.

What would I do with someone who came here illegally and was terminally ill? I would send them home. If I had to spend any taxpayer money on them, it would be for transportation back to their home country.

Hal--
To Hal, the Dynamic Duke of Drivel: #1. I am not going to their country. #2. If they are here illegally, why don't YOU personally pay for their medications? #3. Send them back to their country C.O.D., or better yet, put them in your yard Hal so you can take care of them.

Illegal means Illegal. Look up the term or have someone explain it to you.

zedsmom--
The best way I can try to answer your question on whether or not Cal. will draw a parrallel between costs of illegals and budget problems is to say that you would probably have to ask anyone from Cal. that you might have contact with.

Personally, I don't think that they or any state will "get it" until the legal tax payers rise up in mass and demand drastic and quick changes.

I think that a lot of "natives are getting restless" as the cliche says.

SVARA
My brother, who blamed George Bush for everything, I think, including the sun coming up, left California due to the problem with illegal aliens. He is in the medical field. He finally had enough of "anchor babies". If he can see the light, I have hope.

Handsome Son
Don't forget George Soros!!!! He would be an exellent start to your plan.

JD's Handsome Son
You write:

"Oh, one more thing. No more Federal pensions for retired military officers. No more feeding at the public trough for those elitists who spend their time idly surfing the net rather than performing public services. They're the leaders and they should set an example by forgoing unearned income from the peoples treasury."

Correct me if I'm wrong but I remember that the military did not contribute any money to their pension fund other than SS. When they retired especially the officers, who had buddies in the Pentagon, would get a job with Civil Service and get full credit for their military years without contributing one nickel. Congress eventually killed that Golden Goose. This noncontributing to their pension fund may have been part of their contract as deferred compensation. As a vet I don't have any problem with them collecting their pensions. They did put their lives on the line to protect our freedom. Unearned income? I don't know.

zedsmom
"Hal, I have become sick in other countries, including Mexico. What did I do? I PAID for medical treatment. I did not expect or seek free medical treatment. I was traveling LEGALLY by passport or visa."

Me too but treatment that would cost literally thousands of dollars only cost 400 in Germany. What do you make of that?

"What would I do with someone who came here illegally and was terminally ill? I would send them home. If I had to spend any taxpayer money on them, it would be for transportation back to their home country. "

Just a question. Do you consider yourself a Christian? One more question, why waste money shipping them home???

SVARA
",,,I am not going to their country."

Head in the sand works for you? You don't want to see what other folk are doing???

" #2. If they are here illegally, why don't YOU personally pay for their medications? #3. Send them back to their country C.O.D., or better yet, put them in your yard Hal so you can take care of them. "

Nope I do already. It was your filthy conservative Bush Regime that let them in. My suggestion is send them to red states and let them improve the folks -- they need it

"Illegal means Illegal. Look up the term or have someone explain it to you. "

OK dearie let us look at that -- being an illegal immigrant is a LESS serious "crime" than jay walking or illegal parking.

Hal
A discussion of my faith is a rabbit trail off the discussion. Good try to divert attention.

Why would I send them home? It is up to their family and friends to see them through their illness and up to their country to see to their medical care.

I do not believe my tax dollar should be used to treat illegal aliens for terminal illness, those including or not including transplants.

Once exceptions are made and we start nibbling away at treating one in this situation and another one in that situation, soon we are bankrupt with trying to satisfy all. There is no exception for an illegal alien. None. We are a nation of laws. If we start nibbling away at that, we are engaging in self-destructive behavior. Illegal alien is self-descriptive.

Hal - message to SVARA
No. Being an illegal alien is not "a less serious 'crime' than jay walking or illegal parking"; it is a felony while your walking and parking examples are misdemeanors. To that, you may add other felonies such as illegally using social and medical services, identity theft, tax evasion, and other such crimes. The problem with illegal aliens is that we have not enforced punishment, including, but not limited to, deportation and/or imprisonment.

I obey the law. I expect others to, also, or accept the consequences.

Hal - cost of medical treatment
I don't set the costs of medical treatment or medication. I don't feel the slightest bit guilty or responsible about what the costs are in any country on earth. In my state, we have a charity hospital/medical system for our poor. It has satellite hospitals convenient to all of our state residents. It operates on a sliding scale of ability to pay. If you are unable to pay, you are not required to pay. It is staffed by professors and graduates of our medical schools who are doing their internships. Excellent medical care is provided.

Further, we have faith based programs, the largest of which is provided by the Catholic church. And, to cut off your next rabbit track endeavor, I am not Catholic. These faith based programs provide medical treatment, dental treatment, and medications.

You have have your own arguments about who was not treated well in the military system. I am not responsible for that, either, and accept no guilt on that in my state as veterans (and my husband is a veteran of the Army and Navy) may avail themselves of our charity system or faith-based systems.

I absolutely am steadfast that illegal aliens should not burden our medical system at all.

Willi Beax/JD's Handsome Son
"Oh, one more thing. No more Federal pensions for retired military officers. No more feeding at the public trough for those elitists who spend their time idly surfing the net rather than performing public services. They're the leaders and they should set an example by forgoing unearned income from the peoples treasury."

LMAO I love it LOL. Figures that you would want to break a contract, after all what is a conservatives word worth? Probably not anywhere close to the value of Vitter or Craig's tissues

Willi Beax
Handsome Son is being facetious.

zedsmom
"...We are a nation of laws. If we start nibbling away at that, we are engaging in self-destructive behavior. Illegal alien is self-descriptive. "

LMAO nice tap dance but do you consider yourself to be a Christian?

Greenspan, on CNBC: U.S. in recession

Yahoo - Former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan said on Tuesday the U.S. economy was in recession, and said it would be appropriate to tap public funds to resolve the mortgage-related crisis that has helped pull the economy under.

In an interview with CNBC television in which he defended his chairmanship of the U.S. central bank against charges that his policy missteps had laid the groundwork for the current crisis, Greenspan said Fed decisions on his watch were rationally constructed based on evidence at the time.

“I have no regrets on any of the Federal Reserve policies that we initiated back then because I think they were very professionally done,” Greenspan said.

It is unfair to hold his Fed to task for the housing bubble or the current crisis in credit markets, because global market forces were at work to keep long-term interest rates low, not just Fed policies that brought short-term U.S. interest rates down to multi-decade lows, he said.

“Clearly, certain of our anticipations of what would happen as a consequence of those policies were off but there’s no way of avoiding that,” he said.

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/greenspan-on-cnbc- us-in-recession


zedsmom -- YES!
"...it is a felony while your walking and parking examples are misdemeanors."

Liar, it is not even close! It is not even a summary offense. What are you talking about???? A

",,,,I obey the law. I expect others to, also, or accept the consequences."

Oh never parked illegally? or no place to park illegally where you live???? No jay walking either? Trailer park???

Hal
Thanks for the unwarranted compliment. As I am terminally ill, I don't tap dance any more.

You ask about my religion to divert the discussion. The discussion, when I got into it, was on spending taxpayer dollars and went to spending taxpayer dollars on medical care for illegal aliens. My religion has nothing to do with it. Apparently, that has been a diversionary tool that has worked for you in the past. It doesn't work with me. When I plan my budget or pay my bills, I am doing the same thing as all people of all faiths are doing across the country. When I pay my taxes, I am doing what people of all faiths who are citizens and legal aliens in this country are doing. It has nothing to do with religion. It is a fiscal matter.

The judgment I have made as to obeying laws is based on law passed by Congress, state legislatures, and local governments. The last time I researched that topic, it had nothing to do with religion, either.

zedsmom
"...I don't feel the slightest bit guilty or responsible about what the costs are in any country on earth."

Of course you do not

"In my state, we have a charity hospital/medical system for our poor. It has satellite hospitals convenient to all of our state residents. It operates on a sliding scale of ability to pay. If you are unable to pay, you are not required to pay. It is staffed by professors and graduates of our medical schools who are doing their internships. Excellent medical care is provided."

Really what state? And has it earned awards????

"Further, we have faith based programs, the largest of which is provided by the Catholic church. And, to cut off your next rabbit track endeavor, I am not Catholic. These faith based programs provide medical treatment, dental treatment, and medications."

Why should they pay for what you should pay for?

"You have have your own arguments about who was not treated well in the military system. I am not responsible for that, either, and accept no guilt on that in my state as veterans (and my husband is a veteran of the Army and Navy) may avail themselves of our charity system or faith-based systems."

LMAO, LMAO I love it you lady are a total fraud LMAO yup screw those nasty vets LMAO

"I absolutely am steadfast that illegal aliens should not burden our medical system at all."

Oh I know that and when you go bankrupt trying to care for your family, is it absolutely ok that we let you die at the curb? If yes, please list your name and SSAN so we can make sure that happens. You, lady, need help please talk to someone. BUT you do get an AWARD - you are Nastier than Anne and that is a major accomplishment

zedsmom--
Good reply to Halitosis. I don't think that he really "understands" reality.

Several presidential regimes are I believe, guilty of ignoring the illegal immigrant problem over the years, and now we are paying a hard price, and will continue to do so.

My wife's brother is an orthopedic surgeon and I am sure he has seen a few of these "misunderstood, undocumented parasites" in this area. The whole DFW metro area is becoming a haven for them. Things have change soon or the tax payer well will soon run dry.


Hal
Apparently, I have disappointed you in my remarks. I have not called you names. Remarkably, I thought we could maintain a discussion. Obviously, that is not so.

To truthfully answer your question, no, I have never parked illegally. I have gotten tickets for my time in the parking meter running out; and, I have paid them.

As to the 'trailer park' comment, I have no idea whether you are trying to be insulting or what you mean.

If your intent is to see if we can do a one-upsmanship on swapping name-calling or insults, you are corresponding with the wrong person.

zedsmom
"Thanks for the unwarranted compliment. As I am terminally ill, I don't tap dance any more."

I am too but no reason not to dance dear

"You ask about my religion to divert the discussion."

Actually not true. I asked because fundamentalist conservatism ala' Rush constantly "uses" religion. It is fair to clear the air if you will about what you think "jesus would do".

"The discussion, when I got into it, was on spending taxpayer dollars and went to spending taxpayer dollars on medical care for illegal aliens. My religion has nothing to do with it. "

It most certainly does if you are a conservative - you used religion to get into power so a very fair question


Hal Donahue, Sunday, 04/13/2008 6:24 PM

Hal, "Yup and conservatives love doing that even Ronnie BUT this time there is the Euro so that is not an option. I went to the Euro a few years ago when I saw the rampant conservative debt run up"

IOW, Hal, according to you, "What's mine is mine and the heck with the rest of you"? Am I interpreting that correctly?

Hal the enemy Propagandist!
See what I mean about you having a learning disability?
YOU ARE STILL SO STUPID YOU CALL BUSH A CONSERVATIVE!

Bush is a LIBERAL! Perhaps not quite as liberal as you but then you are a screaming Marxist!

You are nearly as incoherent as Wobbie.
See why people think you are Wobbie posting under another name?

You still did not answer my question.
If you wanted to help defeat America and cause us to loose the Iraq war just like Vietnam;
What else would you do that you are not doing right now?
As the Progressive you are RIGHT NOW, not assuming other form or hypothetical pretense.
Can you think of anything you have not done already?

SVARA/zedsmom
"Several presidential regimes are I believe, guilty of ignoring the illegal immigrant problem over the years, and now we are paying a hard price, and will continue to do so. "

Actually you believe VERY wrong

"... The whole DFW metro area is becoming a haven for them. Things have change soon or the tax payer well will soon run dry."

TEXAS LMAO enough said LMAO


Birdman II
"IOW, Hal, according to you, "What's mine is mine and the heck with the rest of you"? Am I interpreting that correctly? "

If it applies to conservatism yes that is their core belief isn't it?

zedsmom
"...To truthfully answer your question, no, I have never parked illegally. I have gotten tickets for my time in the parking meter running out; and, I have paid them."

Then you are as much a "criminal" as who you call "illegals"

But Hal...
That is YOU doing the very thing you supposedly hate about conservatives... That is the idea that you hang onto what is yours and to heck with everyone else. Don't you see your own hypocrisy on display here?

MyOpine
"YOU ARE STILL SO STUPID YOU CALL BUSH A CONSERVATIVE!"

Bush the torturer is EXACTLY what you get with your virulant form of conservatism - dance all you want but he is all yours


SVARA
That is precisely what started me getting on this thread with you. California is feeling the squeeze on their state economy. It will be a question of priorities. That will be a real legislative fight between the governor and the legislature and internally in the legislature. No politician will want to bear the burden of being the one who was in favor of cutting anything. Matching federal funds or percentage of federal funding will diminish. It will be interesting. One of the first things to go will be parks and recreational areas when the across-the-board cuts don't work.

I have family and friends in the DFW area and have heard of the problems.

Bobby Jindal has just taken over as governor here. We have had two special legislative sessions and are in regular session now. Already cuts in the number of state workers are taking place. I don't know about other states; but, it was a good place to start here.

Birdman II
"...Don't you see your own hypocrisy on display here? "

Explain please?

zedsmom
California is cursed with a Liberal idiot for Governor.

He is advertising for tourist trade now that he has chased many of the productive residents away.

He just signed that silly "MicroStamp" law that will have no affect whatever on deterring crime, will waste many tax dollars to enforce and already has angered all gun owners who are aware of what it is.

The GirlyMan could do the same thing Arizona has done if he was not so afraid of his Leftist wife.

Hal
I don't listen to Rush Limbaugh. I don't know what he says.

What do you think Jesus would do?

Hal the enemy Propagandist!
I do not expect you Marxists to accept responsibility for your own actions.
You Communists just do not accept responsibility!

If you got drunk and wet your pants you would curse Bush for it!

You still did not answer my question.
If you wanted to help defeat America and cause us to loose the Iraq war just like Vietnam;
What else would you do that you are not doing right now?
As the Progressive you are RIGHT NOW, not assuming other form or hypothetical pretense.
Can you think of anything you have not done already?

zedsmom/SVARA
"... That will be a real legislative fight between the governor and the legislature and internally in the legislature. No politician will want to bear the burden of being the one who was in favor of cutting anything."

Your point? Isn't this give and take how it is supposed to be???

"...cuts in the number of state workers are taking place. I don't know about other states; but, it was a good place to start here. "

Yes it is and helps Spanish become the language of the land

It looks like --
Yes, it looks like now that Halitosis is on a mad roll. I doubt if he knows where the DFW metroplex is. He posted LMAO. I hope you LYAO, then your drivel would cease.

zedsmom
"...What do you think Jesus would do? "

From what I have read care for them and send them home after all we are the "Rome" of our day...

JD's Handsome Son/Zedsmom
"...For example, he's attempting a take over of his local chapter of the American Legion near his home town of Scranton, Pa."

No actually I was invited

"Like some campus radical he's cynically made veterans' care his issue, beating his post and state commander over their heads with the accusation that they haven't solved this problem."

HUH??? I don't haver the time and most agree with my view why beat them up


"He's also hitched his wagon to a controversial and much discredited "veteran's group" that wants us defeated in Iraq."

I have nothing at all to do with Hegseth and company at all

"In the same way he comes in here carrying the burden of the budget deficit, the war, and all sorts of social injustices on his singular shoulders, pointing his fat finger of accusation against all of us."

Actually why don't you join me?

"He claims to be a retired Air Force Lt. Col and a cop, but his resume and the chronology of his history are suspect. He uses his macho pedigree in an attempt to silence anyone who voices an opinion on the war, national defense, sovereignty, law enforcement, gun control, etc. Only He can speak on such matters. Everyone else is unworthy."

Actually not claims I am. If you consider that macho that is your business. I am just another guy but I am a guy who will speak out against wrong until my last breath.

"He was picked on and bullied as a kid which explains his practice of nitpicking, sticking his foot out to trip everyone. The bigger boys in his school regularly snatched his football out of his hands, took it away, played with it, then flattened it and gave it back to him when they were done. Because of this, we all have to suffer his presence. "

BUT it all falls apart when you realise "I" was the big kid by far


Robert
Just leaving but please be well.


MyOpine and Handsome Son
My, I don't know what the 'Micro-Stamp' law is. I haven't heard of it 'til now. I guess he figured Bill Clinton's Midnight Basketball didn't work.

Handsome, I know you are your mother's heart! Thanks for the information. I had just had my husband read the posts. He served a short stint in the Army and, later, was a SEAL. He calls himself a "recovering psychologist"; but, I put his Ph.D. to work. He said the exchange was pointless and went further to say that he didn't know if my exchange on TH was such a great idea in light of personalities that any blog attracts. My husband was an officer and is a gentleman. And, you are a gentleman for coming to my defense. I have read your posts and have gotten to know when you are, obviously, being facetious.

I hope Anne wasn't offended by my being compared to her!

JD's Handsome Son
Hal's conceit combined with his insane compulsion to be noticed has already earned him the disgust of Conservatives.

His hero is Kerry;
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/john-kerry-gained-fame-t hanks-to-phony-soldiers

He tries to gain notoriety by being just like Kerry.
He claimes to support the troops but he will not condemn CodePink;
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=\\Specia lReports\\archive\\200508\\SPE20050825a.html

If it is something that will get name recognition for hal, he does not care how much it harms America or any American!
The guy is bonkers about name recognition.
That is why he is here right now!

JD's Handsome Son
"...And yes, I can pass the physical."

Will you volunteer for the red cross or USO? What about your regular job? Will they mind if you go?

zedsmom
"I hope Anne wasn't offended by my being compared to her!"

I am certain she will crave the recognition LOL

Robert
Let's be fair you can't always be "on" but still to Barak I say thank you LOL

Handsome Son
I don't like the way the 'war' has been waged, either. VietNam was and Iraq/Afghanistan are politcally correct military maneuvers. They sacrifice too many to get the job done. Civilians are lost in a war; but, the loss of civilians is less when you just go in, fight, and get it over. I have always been an admirer of Patton.

Hal - WWJD
No, all you were told to do for 'Rome' was 'render unto Caesar what is Caesar's'. Take it forward and render unto the U.S. what the law requires to go to the U.S. Pay taxes; obey the laws.

Last comment to you, Hal, as you said you were leaving and I will in a few minutes.

Hal Donahue asks:
"Explain please?"


You invest in euros because it benefits YOU. It is yours and not mine. But you want me to invest in Socialism, i.e. what's mine is yours.

Social Security is nothing more than a part, a piece, a step of socialism. One step here, one part there, a piece of this and another of that and presto, we have lost to Socialism.

The Constitution gives the Giverment no warrant to take money from one indivdiual to give to another. Any charitable donations are to be done on a VOLUNARILY basis by indivdual people to those in need. Social Security is forced taking of money from one to benefit another.

It is really not too difficult to understand.

Sam
I wish I didn't have to leave earlier, don't know if your still checking this thread.

I realize your point, and regarding the overall document of our constitution, I whole heartedly support a literal reading as a rule. In rare cases, one must acknowledge the limitations of the time. They had no idea what kind of power they were unleasing when this country was founded. The power of capitalism. They could not forsee all the needs of the future and this was one of them. They actually gave the power of regulating the money supply to congress because they simply did not know what else to do with it. We have learned in this one instance not to trust the congress with this power and that was one of the best things to happen to this country. Would that we would trust them with much less in other areas also, I would be a happy man.

What I don't understand is
why a reduction in house value would cause someone to delay retirement. All of the reasons for this are also reasons why an individual is not ready to retire to begin with.

House needs to be sold at a high enough profit to pay it off and buy another house in new location?

House needs to be sold to finance retirement?

Anyone who is depending on this is not ready for retirement. In addition, anyone depending on SS for retirement is not ready either.

And finally, the redunction is the value of a house has NOTHING to do with the ability to make payments and therefore not go into default. It does have to do with the bank recouping their losses. So when the government does a bailout they are not bailing out Joe Sixpack. They are bailing out the bank.

Birdman II
"You invest in euros because it benefits YOU. It is yours and not mine. But you want me to invest in Socialism, i.e. what's mine is yours."

Not all you can do Euros too nothing to stop you. I do not support socialism and you might look up the definition

"Social Security is nothing more than a part, a piece, a step of socialism. One step here, one part there, a piece of this and another of that and presto, we have lost to Socialism."

Actually not true it was an investment program that the government looted and now owes to the people when you see it costs to much really read it is a real debt that we don't want to pay. Just like you folks treat the veterans and our wounded - the same deadbeat strategy

"The Constitution gives the Giverment no warrant to take money from one indivdiual to give to another.

The Constitution gives "we the people" the right to do just about anything

"Any charitable donations are to be done on a VOLUNARILY basis by indivdual people to those in need."

Really???? I did not see that in the Constitution either

Liberals are abject cowards
Why does anyone here bother to argue with Hal or Robert? They know all, see all

JamesJ
"Liberals are abject cowards "

Really WOW all those liberal founding fathers too geesh or were you looking in the mirror

"Why does anyone here bother to argue with Hal or Robert? They know all, see all "

Hey that works for me cuts down on typing

Sam
I got to work this morning and the first thing I saw on my econbrowser feed was a post from James Hamilton saying the exact thing I just said last night.

http://www.econbrowser.com/archives/2008/04/central_bank_in .html


Hal
Not one of the Founding Fathers could make it as a Democrat today. Today's Democrats think of the Founders as nothing but Dead White European Males.

Hal Donahue, Monday, 04/14/2008 7:53 AM

Hal, "Not all you can do Euros too nothing to stop you."

That is my point. It is your property to do with as you please. And my property is mine to do with as I please.


Hal, "I do not support socialism"

You do if you support SOCIAL Security. It is a socialistic program.


Birdman, "Social Security is nothing more than a part, a piece, a step of socialism..."

Hal, "Actually not true..."

Actually, yes, it is true. The Giverment is not a benevolent provider. According to the Constitution, it is limited to protecting the individual’s rights to provide for himself. My individual rights come from God, not the Giverment. If my rights come from the Giverment then the Giverment can just a easily take them away. If that can happen then those rights are not inalienable.


Hal, "… it was an investment program"

No, Hal, it is a ponzi scheme that needs more and more people to support it. That cannot continue forever. It forces people to depend on the Giverment instead of themselves. When people look to the Giverment for their needs then we have socialism.


Hal, "The Constitution gives "we the people" the right to do just about anything"

Anything, Hal, except violate my (or anybody’s) rights and property.


I said, "Any charitable donations are to be done on a VOLUNTARILY basis by individual people to those in need."

Hal resp, "Really???? I did not see that in the Constitution either"

Interesting that you use the word 'either'. IOW, Hal, you agree that (1) you do not see in the Constitution where Giverment has the warrant to take from one to give to another, and (2) you don’t see that giving is voluntary 'either'?

Thank you, Mr. Will
Presidential election year economic news reporting is sensationalist at best. Chicken Little, "The sky is falling!" has been reverberating in the media since the Democratic Party decided that it is in their best interest to for the voters to believe it. Every little hiccup becomes full blown HIV.

What is truly shameless, is that all that negative hotair DOES impact the economy. It negatively effects consumer sentiment and becomes a self-fullfilling prophecy. The Dems know that and choose to harm the economy anyway in order to win the presidency. Who gets hurt the most? The poorest among us whom are already living on the edge.

Entitlement? Really, SS?
"In 1935, when Congress enacted Social Security, protracted retirement was a luxury enjoyed by a tiny sliver of the population. Back then, Congress did its arithmetic ruthlessly: When it set the retirement age at 65, the life expectancy of an adult American male was 65. If in 1935 Congress had indexed the retirement age to life expectancy, today's retirement age would be 75."

Social security is hardly an entitlement, in my mind. For one, I'm paying my money into it - forced to do so at gun point in fact. For that reason its more of a tax. Frankly, I should be able to retire anytime I like and collect what SS is due me - or opt out of the system completely. Let me do that and you can keep what I've already paid in!

The way SS is sold, and the fact that it was originally indexed to the age of life expectancy, is quite vulgar. The fact that Congress takes no part in this stupid, evil thievery is just another insult, heaped on high.

The march toward socialism is not
restricted to the Democrats alone. It is true that the party has moved far to the left and has signed on to the European Democratic Socialist model. What should be noted is that the GOP has also moved left and now occupies the old "liberal Democrat" spot in the political spectrum.

Anyone who thinks that both parties are not moving us into the new world order of socialist Utopia is not paying attention.

Both parties have mortgaged the future by consistent overspending and the creation of endless entitlements. The military has been weakening by using US troops to police the world.
Our sovereignty is being sold out via various UN sponsored treaties and by allowing illegal immigrants to flood the nation. Our resources in every way are being used to take care of other nations, and the illegal population is now bankrupting our hospitals and overburdening our local police and the prison system.

The two parties, along with the MSM continue to promote the propaganda that only the "elites" are capable of governing. The citizens are kept uneducated about the Constitution and the foundations of freedom. Immigrants, legal and illegal, add to this uneducated, entitlement minded population. Is it any wonder the country is moving toward the internationalist's vision of socialist Utopia?

Unless and until we the people act to reclaim our inheritance, the slide into the new world order will go on. If you really want to understand how this scam has been perpetrated on us, and what the sloution is, you need to visit my website, JOEOLIVAFORPRERSIDENT.ORG. The elites have stolen our birthright! Exactly when are we going to come together to stop this theft? Are we going to once again elect another elite, doing the same old thing and expecting a different result? Are we going to keep electing these incompetents? Thanks, Joe

Amazing
This from a man whose never worked a day in his life. Hearing a pompous, over the hill used to be write about the laziness of Americans is like hearing Barack talk about the middle class. I'd love to see Will work in the coal mine until he's 82 and then he can talk about Americans "right" to retirement being a recent invention.
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