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Thursday, March 27, 2008
George Will :: Townhall.com Columnist
Conservatives Really Are More Compassionate
by George Will
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WASHINGTON -- Residents of Austin, Texas, home of the state's government and flagship university, have very refined social consciences, if they do say so themselves, and they do say so, speaking via bumper stickers. Don R. Willett, a justice of the state Supreme Court, has commuted behind bumpers proclaiming "Better a Bleeding Heart Than None at All," "Practice Random Acts of Kindness and Senseless Beauty," "The Moral High Ground Is Built on Compassion," "Arms Are For Hugging," "Will Work (When the Jobs Come Back From India)," "Jesus Is a Liberal," "God Wants Spiritual Fruits, Not Religious Nuts," "The Road to Hell Is Paved With Republicans," "Republicans Are People Too -- Mean, Selfish, Greedy People" and so on. But Willett thinks Austin subverts a stereotype: "The belief that liberals care more about the poor may scratch a partisan or ideological itch, but the facts are hostile witnesses."

Sixteen months ago, Arthur C. Brooks, a professor at Syracuse University, published "Who Really Cares: The Surprising Truth About Compassionate Conservatism." The surprise is that liberals are markedly less charitable than conservatives.

If many conservatives are liberals who have been mugged by reality, Brooks, a registered independent, is, as a reviewer of his book said, a social scientist who has been mugged by data. They include these findings:

-- Although liberal families' incomes average 6 percent higher than those of conservative families, conservative-headed households give, on average, 30 percent more to charity than the average liberal-headed household ($1,600 per year vs. $1,227).

-- Conservatives also donate more time and give more blood.

-- Residents of the states that voted for John Kerry in 2004 gave smaller percentages of their incomes to charity than did residents of states that voted for George Bush.

-- Bush carried 24 of the 25 states where charitable giving was above average.

-- In the 10 reddest states, in which Bush got more than 60 percent majorities, the average percentage of personal income donated to charity was 3.5. Residents of the bluest states, which gave Bush less than 40 percent, donated just 1.9 percent.

-- People who reject the idea that "government has a responsibility to reduce income inequality" give an average of four times more than people who accept that proposition.

Brooks demonstrates a correlation between charitable behavior and "the values that lie beneath" liberal and conservative labels. Two influences on charitable behavior are religion and attitudes about the proper role of government.

The single biggest predictor of someone's altruism, Willett says, is religion. It increasingly correlates with conservative political affiliations because, as Brooks' book says, "the percentage of self-described Democrats who say they have 'no religion' has more than quadrupled since the early 1970s." America is largely divided between religious givers and secular nongivers, and the former are disproportionately conservative. One demonstration that religion is a strong determinant of charitable behavior is that the least charitable cohort is a relatively small one -- secular conservatives.

Reviewing Brooks' book in the Texas Review of Law & Politics, Justice Willett notes that Austin -- it voted 56 percent for Kerry while he was getting just 38 percent statewide -- is ranked by The Chronicle of Philanthropy as 48th out of America's 50 largest cities in per capita charitable giving. Brooks' data about disparities between liberals' and conservatives' charitable giving fit these facts: Democrats represent a majority of the wealthiest congressional districts, and half of America's richest households live in states where both senators are Democrats.

While conservatives tend to regard giving as a personal rather than governmental responsibility, some liberals consider private charity a retrograde phenomenon -- a poor palliative for an inadequate welfare state, and a distraction from achieving adequacy by force, by increasing taxes. Ralph Nader, running for president in 2000, said: "A society that has more justice is a society that needs less charity." Brooks, however, warns: "If support for a policy that does not exist ... substitutes for private charity, the needy are left worse off than before. It is one of the bitterest ironies of liberal politics today that political opinions are apparently taking the place of help for others."

In 2000, brows were furrowed in perplexity because Vice President Al Gore's charitable contributions, as a percentage of his income, were below the national average: He gave 0.2 percent of his family income, one-seventh of the average for donating households. But Gore "gave at the office." By using public office to give other peoples' money to government programs, he was being charitable, as liberals increasingly, and conveniently, understand that word.

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About The Author
George F. Will is a 1976 Pulitzer Prize winner whose columns are syndicated in more than 400 magazines and newspapers worldwide.
 
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Outstanding
choice of subject Mr. Will. No surprise to any conservative. I am sure the trolls will be here howling.

What no Concervative


Fort Sam Houston, Texas (AFNews) – Officials here are opening the Center for the Intrepid and two Fisher Houses Jan. 29 in a dedication ceremony at the Brooke Army Medical Center.

More than 3,000 people, including wounded and recovering military service members and their families, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Peter Pace, and Senators Hillary Rodham Clinton and John McCain who supported the construction of the center, will participate in the dedication ceremony for The Center for the Intrepid — a $50 million, 65,000 square foot, state-of-the-art physical rehabilitation center — and two new Fisher Houses for hospitalized military members’ families.

The dedication also features a performance by singer John Mellencamp and a military flyover. Other expected special guests include Denzel Washington, Rosie O’Donnell.

Sobering Facts
" In the Center on Wealth and Philanthropy Charitable Giving Indices: Social Indicators of Philanthropy by State study, the top 10 states for CWP Measure 4 of Giving Relative to Income Ranked by State are: New York, District of Columbia, Utah, California, Connecticut, Maryland , New Jersey, Georgia,Massachusetts and Hawaii. 8 of those states would be classified as "blue states" whereas the bottom 10 states are: Maine, Mississippi, Indiana, Missouri, New Mexico, Iowa, South Dakota, Vermont, West Virginia and North Dakota are almost exclusively red."

Source of Taft's quote
to put Taft's quote into context, here is the source

http://www.philanthropy.com/live/2006/11/brooks/

No Surprise in a way.
For instance, Ted Rall, a left-wing pundit and cartoonist, recently mocked people who helped hurricane Katrina victims. In his opinion that's was the government's job.

Oddly, though he thinks the government made a complete hash of Kartrina, he wishes the government would take over all the hospitals and schools in America and make all doctors and teachers federal employees.

I do not recall Christ imploring us
to give other people's money to the needy. But I forget, Liberals do not believe in God unless a reference to him matches some cute bumper sticker slogan.

The only thing liberals contribute of themselves is piety and patronization.


And, George...?
Great article, but I'd also like to know if more Conservatives or Liberals took out "low interest" loans in order to purchase homes they couldn't afford in the hope/belief/expectation that government would bail them out in the end.

Never mind what others do
Keep your own house in order and your priorities straight. Give where the need may be, especially to those who are treading water --the middle class brothers and sisters that are working as hard as they can and need just a boost to get over the hump. People ignore those folks; they are not photogenic and refuse to go on display anyway.

And remember that charity begins at home and sometimes ought to stay there. If you are throwing money at the Gay Whales and your mother is living in desperate straits, you are facing the wrong way.

Lets see what Obama gives of his own abundance to the brothers he constantly throws in our faces. I bet it will be less than Al Gore and his paltry .2%.

The ugly truth about liberalism
Liberalism is sold, by liberals, as being just, generous, caring and compassionate. But, the truth is very often the opposite. The majority of liberals are arrogant, self-absorbed and selfish. They like the concept of government doling out the charity, and not giving individuals the right to decide on their own. That, after all, would be competition, anathema to liberalism.

Brooks's trying to dupe good people
Brooks doesn't get anything right.

"Other scholars, like Paul Schervish, a sociologist and head of the Center on Wealth and Philanthropy at Boston College, express doubts about the claims, though he found them hard to check on short notice. "One thing he does do," Schervish says in an interview, "is to go to different data sets depending on what he wants to be proving." Among other sources, Brooks uses IRS data, the University of Michigan's General Social Survey, and surveys conducted by the Center on Philanthropy at Indiana University."

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2006/12/10/ who_gives/

really no surprise
Liberals want society to be generous and want to tell othes how to spend their money.They want the government to do the charity work because then they won't be troubled as they already gave at the office in the form of taxes.

Dumbing down the softest hearts?
So, explain why charitable conservatives keep voting for the likes of Bush and McCain? These two are icons of the typical conservative leadership that those "giving" constituents continue to keep at the helm - they symbolize the MOST uncharitable leadership ever in their policies, foreign and domestic.

It leads one to the conclusion that while their heart is in the right place, conservatives actually vote with their ears rather than with their heads. They hear the Orwellian rhetoric of Bush and McCain (and Mitt and Thompson), but they don't actually seek out the truth behind the rhetoric. NOR do they learn from the rather blatant manner in which Bush has conducted his nefarious anti-American Average Joe policies.


Conservatives are more compassionate?
"George W. Bush during his six years as governor of Texas presided over 152 executions, more than any other governor in the recent history of the United States."

Take, for example, the case of Terry Washington, a mentally retarded man of thirty-three with the communication skills of a seven-year-old. Washington's plea for clemency came before Governor Bush on the morning of May 6, 1997. After a thirty-minute briefing by Gonzales, Bush checked "Deny"—just as he had denied twenty-nine other pleas for clemency in his first twenty-eight months as governor."

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17670

Sometimes there are things ...
you just know. It's nice to have the data (from a reliable source at least) that confirms the truth for you, but really, you didn't need it (accept to shut up the foul-mouthed whackos that couldn't see the truth if it were on a 2x4 that smacked them on the forehead).

As a person of faith, you do the right thing for the right reason without considering that there will be accolades in this life. God said he loves a cheerful giver. That's good enough for me!

Yes, Taft
Conservatives are more compassionate, especially to the victims of brutal crimes.

Libs seem hellbent to let every sicko murderer and rapist off the hook, but conservative pursue true justice. It is absolutely an uncompassionate response to victims, their families, and society at large, to let murderers, rapists and other violent and brutal criminals off the hook.

Not practicing the death penalty allows more murders to take place. Not punishing violent and brutal crimes harshly allows offenders to have the attitude that they can commit their offenses and get away with it.

Letting murderers and rapists off the hook is not compassion, you sick, twisted individual. It is nothing more than acceptance and a liberal stamp of approval for the actions of criminals.

liberals
are only generous with other people's money

Brutal Crimes Galore!
"By his two visits to Baghdad, one in late 1983 and the second in early 1984, Rumsfeld reassured the Iraqi leadership that it had broad latitude in prosecuting the war against Iran, including by using poison gas. Along with the Reagan Administration, he thereby helped build up a state that terrorized its own citizens and turned a tinpot dictator into a tyrant threatening the region. Post-9/11, Rumsfeld declared Iraq a threat to the U.S., in part because of its W.M.D. capability. The audacity of this claim–Iraq could not reasonably be thought to still have a viable W.M.D. capability after many years of U.N. inspections–conveniently elided his own past role in encouraging Saddam in the 1980s, and the way the Bush Administration used it to justify the war in Iraq shows the need to put an end to the impunity by which criminal policies are pursued in the name of U.S. interests." Harpers

"In March 1988, during the Iran-Iraq war, thousands were killed in a chemical attack on a town in Iraqi Kurdistan. Both sides accused the other. Gradually it emerged that Saddam Hussein, with the tacit support of his western allies, was responsible. This book tells the story of the gassing of Halabja, and how Iraq amassed chemical weapons to target Iranian soldiers and Kurdish villagers as America looked the other way. Today, as the Middle East sinks further into turmoil, these policies are coming back to haunt the West." Amazon

Taft
Yeah, Saddam and his sons practiced all manner of brutality against the Iraqi people.

You, Taft, apparently applauded and supported his actions, as you were opposed to any action to get rid of that murderer and his family of brutes.

What's your next comment going to be, you sicko?

True vs False Compassion
Additionally, conservatives are more likely to show true compassion by focusing on the long term and targeting their charity toward "teaching the man to fish" -- putting people on the road to self-sufficiency -- rather than the false compassion of relieving misery for a moment but doing nothing about the root cause of the misery.

This true compassion for people's long-term well-being is why conservatives are also likely to tie their giving to some type of active effort to reform on the recipient's part. This has the dual effect of using scarce resources in the most efficient and effective fashion and in increasing resources over time since those who have been given a hand-up and are thus now productive citizens are in a position to give as they have been given too.

Those who are given hand-outs without targeting the roots of the needy condition and without requiring any effort or return from them remain perpetually dependent. They suck up scarce resources like a black hole for money and make it impossible to help those who could learn to stand on their own feet.

As an added bonus, since its human nature to favor actions that get results and to refuse pointless actions, charity of the sort that helps people stand on their own feet encourages more people to give because they can see what they get for their money.

While I don't know if my most favored charity, Heifer Project International, was founded by conservatives I do know that it functions in a conservative way -- those who receive animals are expected to both use those animals to provide for their family's needs over the long term AND to donate a portion of the offspring back to HPI.

Compassion narrowly defined
So is how much you give to charity a measure of compassion? I give more money so I am more compassionate?

Compassion comes in many forms..Money and time is certainly one of them. But what about governmental policies and political policies. The public and the needs of our fellow citizens. Cannot they be compassionate as well..?

Conservative basic philosophy is the power of the individual and personal wealth over the public good and the working class. Then they make themseleves feel better by saying:

The poor in this country are not as bad as the poor in other ocuntries.
My wealth does not cause your poverty
Conservatives give more money to charity than liberals.

Charirable organizations in this country are struggling to survive. Individual contributions are down as well as public grants. Also they cannot fill all the needs of their community. Therefore charitable services are not equitable and consistent from one local to another and many people are out of reach and do not get served. In the end who or how do we as a society help our fellow citizens? who is the best arbitor of these services?

In addition, conservative policies of favoring the wealthy and business are not compassionate. The lack of support of new deal policies and Freedman style capitalism has destroyed the middle class and has casued economic genocide throughout the world.

Conservative social polices are not compassionate. Denying gays full rights of marriage, denying stem cell research and attacks on illegal immigrants are not compassionate policies.




Taft
Your last couple posts seem more concerned with copying and pasting anti-Bush rhetoric (disclaimer: I have never voted for Bush) then with discussing the subject at hand. An individual in government doing things you disagree with does not change the actions of the populace.

Liberal dogma
Liberals believe that they show their compassion through govt. programs, laws regulations.

In truth, Taking from one person govt. deems to have too much to give to another that govt. deems to have too little is no more compassionate then stealing.

Compassion comes from individuals. When govt. attempts compassion it quickly turns to oppression and dependence.

History is rife with examples of how good attentions by govt. hurt those they attempt to help.


Curtal Friar,
That's a perfect example of the false compassion that comes from focusing too tightly on some immediate unpleasantness rather than looking at the situation in a big-picture context and exhibiting true compassion by targeting the source of the misery.

I believe I've seen chutzpah defined as killing your parents then pleading for mercy based on being an orphan. The false compassion of the liberals grants that mercy rather than doing justice to the killer so that he can kill no more then putting the slain parents' other kids through tech school so that they can support themselves after being robbed of their parents.


Giving and Democrats
I notice that the Democrat politicians are also the tightest with a buck when it comes to charity. Democrats think the world owes them a living because they are the elite compasionate voters that stand ever ready to increase someone else's taxes and spend someone else's money on some stupid program that provides work for tax termites and fellow travelers striving toward socialism. They only want socialism because Communism has a bad record. They ignore the law of unintended consequences that plagued their programs incessantly. Look at what the LBJ and Carter programs did for us.

choices and consequences
the good book says "by their fruits shall ye know them". See the fruits of government largess by compulsion vs. the work that is done by private organizations and individuals. The answer is crystal clear.

Stedes
stedes writes:

****Conservative social polices are not compassionate. Denying gays full rights of marriage, denying stem cell research and attacks on illegal immigrants are not compassionate policies.****

1. Gays are not denied rights. They, like any other american, have the right to marry someone of the opposite sex, just like I do. No one is denied that right. You, however, are right if you mean that they are not allowed to marry someone of the same sex. That is not a right. That is a privilege that gays want. They want privileges that no American has. They want the privilege of having more than what the marriage laws allow. Spoiled, selfish, whiny little brats is what they are.

2. Conservatives do not deny stem cell research. No laws have been passed that forbid any kind of stem cell research. Bush would not allow funding of embryonic stem cell research, but he did not forbid the practice. One simply must pay for such endeavors himself. Furthermore, there is funding for adult stem cell research, a field which shows much more promise and fewer medical or health dangers than embryonic stem cell research.

3. Attacks on poor illegal immigrants? you mean lawbreakers. you mean the drugrunners. you mean the slavers, the rapists, the murderers, the gang members, and the like. Oh, the poor dears, of course we shouldn't stop them from carrying out their crimes. We should help them brutalize other people.

You and Taft are sick individuals.

Charity or Theft
It sounds like Republicans donate their own money and Democrats like to donate Republican money also.

Relieve or enable?
The purpose of charitable giving, whether of time, talent or money, is to help provide relief from bad situations, not to enable the perpetuation of those situations. Charity DOES begin at home, and the concept of “blooming where you’re planted” is a valid one, because it’s only through personal knowledge of individuals and organizations that I can have some assurance that whatever assistance I’m providing will do any actual good.

Most of the liberals of my acquaintance support public charity over the private variety, never minding the improbability of some bureaucrat in the Department of Social Services looking at an application for aid and saying, “Hmm. Is what we’re about to do going to relieve this situation or perpetuate it?”

I strongly suspect that for every person in real need, there are many more just gaming the system. Which is why I target my own giving the way I do.

stedes
Government cannot be compassionate. No THING can be compassionate. Only PEOPLE can be compassionate -- and then only as individuals rather than as groups.

Compassion is more than a mere emotional impulse. It requires thought. Since resources will ALWAYS be scarce in comparison to needs true compassion must use those resources effectively and efficiently to provide the greatest possible good for the least possible investment. Wasting money that could have been better used is not compassionate.

What shows greater compassion:

To give a poor person a week's worth of groceries or to pay that person's tuition at a tech school so that he/she can get a job and earn his/her own groceries?

To give a dropout $5000 free and clear or to give a dropout $1000 on the condition that he/she show up at an entry-level job (for which he/she will be paid), clean, properly dressed, properly groomed, sober, and on time for 6 weeks -- during the course of which he/she will gain work experience, learn how to conduct oneself on the job, and be offered the opportunity to work towards a GED?

To offer an able-bodied person a subsistence-level existence on the dole or to offer that able-bodied person a choice between starvation and seeking gainful employment that will, in due time, lead to prosperity rather than mere subsistence?

The ugly truth about liberalism
Liberalism is sold, by liberals, as being just, generous, caring and compassionate. But, the truth is very often the opposite. The majority of liberals are arrogant, self-absorbed and selfish. They like the concept of government doling out the charity, and not giving individuals the right to decide on their own. That, after all, would be competition, anathema to liberalism.

It did not take long for the libs
to deflect and obfuscate Brooke's finding. In short time we have seen the patent liberal bromides:
-It's Bush's fault
-Gay's cannot marry
-The Author/study are wrong
-Republicans hate immigrants and Michael J. Fox
-Businesses are evil
-War is bad

It is still early though. We should soon hear about the connections to global warming and the spotted owl.

I hope we can get all of these out of the way so we can return to the subject of the article:

The only time liberals are generous is when it involves somebody else's money.


Curtal Friar
You may try to take the time to read my posts. My point is clear, Saddam was given chemical weapons by conservatives like Rumsfield and used in Haditha.

"In A Poisonous Affair Joost Hiltermann has crafted a gripping narrative out of some of the most chilling events of the last two decades. But A Poisonous Affair is not simply a rigorous and important piece of history. By revisiting Saddam Hussein's worst massacre and the US response to it, Hilterman masterfully excavates the roots of our current predicament. He shows how the traumatization of the Kurds spawned their mistrust of all things Iraqi, fueling the separatism of the present. He reveals the degree to which America's support for Saddam while he was gassing his own people bred fierce and lasting skepticism about whether Washington could be trusted in the region. And he demonstrates how America's indifference to Saddam's chemical attacks on Iran helped convince Iran to go it alone, and to acquire its own weapons of mass destruction. Hilterman has given us a necessary book about a ghastly crime, the legacy of which we will be managing for decades to come."

Curtal Friar
Do you not believe it is rather ironic that stedes says we need to see the big picture when it comes to capital punishment but then is pro govt. sponsored embryonic research?

I bet stedes believes it more compassionate to kill an unborn innocent baby then to inconvenience its mother.

Another Example
Having mentioned Heifer Project International already, here's something that might strike more of a chord among the urbanites who don't connect with farming -- Dress for Success.

"The mission of Dress for Success is to promote the economic independence of disadvantaged women by providing professional attire, a network of support and the career development tools to help women thrive in work and in life.

Founded in New York City in 1997, Dress for Success is an international not-for-profit organization offering services designed to help our clients find a job and remain employed. Each Dress for Success client receives one suit when she has a job interview and can return for a second suit or separates when she finds work."


And likewise for men -- Career Gear.

"Career Gear is a nonprofit organization that fills the gap between job-training programs and employment by providing men with the interview clothing, motivation and follow-up support that helps them get jobs and keep jobs.

Career Gear was founded in New York City in 1998 by Gary Field, a social worker, and David Woolard, a costume designer. Thanks to the success of the program and due to the incredible demand for its services, Career Gear has expanded nationally.

How does it work? A variety of job-training programs refer men to Career Gear. When a client arrives, he is greeted by a personal shopper who helps him put together his entire interview outfit. He gets grooming tips and coaching on his upcoming interview. Each man leaves ready to meet prospective employers not only looking his best, but also radiating the self-confidence needed to get the job."


Taft
You like other libs equate govt. to compassion. Govt. is not capable of compassion no matter who is in charge or how honorable their intentions.


Taft - HA HA!
Quoting the New York Times to prove a point to conservatives is pretty funny. Hilarious, in fact!

Why don't you go to DailyKos or Huffington Post, where the creative fiction of Howell Raines, Jayson Blair, et. al. are appreciated.

acceptreality
I'm sorry, but my post plainly points out Brook's findings are retarded. See link (again).
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2006/12/10/ who_gives/
There are many good conservatives, and I know personally some who give their time to great causes. I know many libs who do too, though. I know several who embody the spirit of the little old lady in the Bible who gave, not much, but all she had.

Voodoo Statistics
If a millionaire donates $10,000.00 and a guy that only has $100.00 donates $50.00 who gave more?


If conservatives donate to causes they believe in, how come Obama raised more money in just February than McCain has in his whole campaign?


How many acts of charity are not reported?



How many donations are made just for tax write-offs?


I know a bunch of hooey when I hear it George.

Oops,
I did not give Taft enough credit.

He found a way to use bed sores to disprove this article.

Taft
First off, good morning to you.

I was here at the opening of the CFI, and I can tell you, of all the "celebrities" that deigned to appear here, only Mr. Washington, and Mr. and Mrs. David Kelley, cared enough to even greet the men and women for whom this center was built. The rest, including Ms. O'Donnell, had a photo op, and left as soon as possible.

And as far as the plea for clemency goes, did you even bother to find out what these criminals did to deserve their fate on Death Row? I did. Not pretty. Think of the rights these criminals denied their victims. Think of the rights these criminals still get while incarcerated. I lost a dear friend five years ago, and her attackers fled back to Mexico. THAT family will never get justice. I respect your opinion, but choose to disagree most vehemently with you.

Voodoo Statistics
If a millionaire donates $10,000.00 and a guy that only has $100.00 donates $50.00 who gave more?


If conservatives donate to causes they believe in, how come Obama raised more money in just February than McCain has in his whole campaign?


How many acts of charity are not reported?



How many donations are made just for tax write-offs?


I know a bunch of hooey when I hear it George.

"government"
Posters, please remember that the word "government" translates to "people-who-work-at-a-government-job". 99 percent burocrats. They are the ones who are expected to fulfill all these liberal great expectations.

Nice try DooDoo Doug, but
The article clearly points out the demographic considerations in several ways:

-As percentage of income.
-Total $ giving
-Personal efforts
-As household wealth in Blue vs Red states

As to your other points:

What kind of moron (sorry, but I do mean you) thinks the study is flawed because not every act of charity is cataloged?

What kind of moron equates giving to a political campaign as an act of charity?

What kind of moron would suggest that tax considerations apply only to conservatives?

No Doug, it is not hooey you hear, it is your own BS that you smell.

Mother of 4
Thank you for posting.

We are guaranteed at least four Americans with brains and compassion.

The aversion to truth and rational thinking of some of these posters is peculiar, and sobering.

heavydoug
"If a millionaire donates $10,000.00 and a guy that only has $100.00 donates $50.00 who gave more?"

Actually Doug, The millionaire gave more.
$10,000.00 > $50.00

You mean who sacrificed more by giving a greater percentage of their income.

"If conservatives donate to causes they believe in, how come Obama raised more money in just February than McCain has in his whole campaign?"

Equating giving to Obama's campaign as charity is rather laughable as well as pathetic. Proving Georges contention.

Is this the so-called litmus test?
So, we're all pretty much anonymous here. How 'bout, for the sake of argument, we take a sampling. What percentage of your gross income did you give away last year, whether to family, friends in need, to strangers on the street, to charitable organizations, or to political causes? Can everyone be honest?

And as to tax write-offs, I did not make the law and would have it removed if I could (it does, after all, only force others to subsidize my giving), but not to take advantage of it would be poor stewardship. The deductions leave more in my pocket to give away.

I would start, but based on the numbers in Mr. Will's article, I may sound like I'm bragging. Let's just say it's higher than the conservative numbers he stated.

Apparently heavydoug isn't
listening. When the program on ABC, 20/20, did a story on this, they performed a test. They put the Salvation Army red kettles in two locations. One at a Wal Mart in Iowa, another at an upscale store, Macy's I think, in San Francisco. In a few short days, I believe the Iowans gave over twice as much. You can't argue with the facts, but you're welcome to make up your own as you go if you really need to feel justified in your selfishness.

Frog
ABC's study is flawed because the kettle in Iowa was a different shade of red and the bell was louder.

YLG
Good Morning,

Great post! One thing Rosie wrote out a hefty check. Thanks

Eschew Obfuscation
George you are confusing the issue with the facts. Please stop it ! You just don't get it !

Tibby

Accept this Reality
Only Morons try to measure the immeasurable.

Charity is Love.

I could give a million dollars it won't make you complete.(that's proved by your posts)

Poor folks share their homes, food, and families.

Many people I know their very lives.. are acts of charity.

And they ain't doin' any studies to prove they aren't as selfish as everyone knows you are anyway.

You have to love someone before you even know the best way to give.

Your name is your challenge.


Taft
I'm sorry if I came off in a bad way. That was not my intent.

Yes, she did give a nice sized check, and we are grateful for it. I just didn't like that some of the celebrities just gave money and took off. In my opinion, it was bad form.

Thanks for reading my rant, though. I appreciate it!

Taft Look Before You Leap ..
Taft, before you cite as evidence of conservative/Bush cruelty the fact that the President refused to stay the execution of Terry Washington you might also note that the offical autopsy of his victim determined Mr. Taft stabbed his 29 year old female victim and, after kiling her eviscerated the girl.


liberals and donations
libs think supporting poltical campaigns is charitible giving. This week the oblahmas released their tax forms. It appears they are most,dare I use the expression, niggardly when it comes to charities. In their early years with incomes exceeding $240,000 they managed to donate all of $1000. These are the same hypocrites that tell others how we must continue to dig intyo our pockets to fund the myriad of social programs that the govt always mismanages. I suppose their is no way of knowing. But the hollyweird crown can donate many millions to politicians but we seldom hear of similar contributions to worthwhile causes. Wew know they spend huge sums on rehab programs for their self indulges lifestyles, but are they helping rehab the down and out

I am struck
by the notion that compassion is only about $$$. I have participated in many TH threads that ridicule the people who have been left dead and homeless in New Orleans, prisoners in Iraq, many of whom were later found to be innocent, who were tortured to death, Muslim families who have witnessed the deaths of their children in Darfur, the work and money that celebrities like Pitt and Jolie put out for others, and calls for a desire to (nd this is a quote) "take those little brown bas--rds that come in illegally with their illegal parens (sic) and smash their heads against a concrete wall."

What is compassion really about?

DexL
Being completely honest to your question--I don't even have to look our household give at least 10% a year, after tax. That is a Biblical guideline that most Christian households follow. We often give more---when we feel the need may be greater, but it never dips under 10%.

And while we are being honest--how about we count charity as my NEVER taking a dime from the governemnt for any kind of "program". My kids don't even attend public school. Can I count my tax dollars given to an education system that my children don't use as charity? I have lived my life so as to not burden anyone else. Can we count that as charity also? I do not commit crimes (never have used the jailhouse) and haven't even had a speeding ticket (no need for any paper-work, just trying to save trees) in 10 years, can we count that as charity too? I like being able to define my charity work--this is fun, I am way more "charitable" than I thought.

naturally
Right on schedule:

I see once again they have come out to assail the inconvenient truth. It helps make a case for that statement: "It is one of the bitterest ironies of liberal politics today that political opinions are apparently taking the place of help for others."

Heavy doo doo
Of course only a moron would try to measure the unmeasurable. That is precisely why I responded to your obfuscations.

I too can draw a conclusion based exceptions. Would you accept my (unprovable) study that (conveniently) supports my OPINION about the level of charity that resides in the hearts of a group that I select?

What you are (unsuccessfully) attempting to do is to deny the results of a study that collected a wide range of data from disparate viewpoints, all of them suggesting the same conclusion. Just because you do not agree with that conclusion does not give you liberty to apply unprovable motivations or unsubstantiated allegations to refute it.


heavydoug
"Only Morons try to measure the immeasurable.
Charity is Love."

Well actually what is being measured are charitable acts not Love. Charitable acts are also quite measurable. So your point is?

"Poor folks share their homes, food, and families."

George write: "Although liberal families' incomes average 6 percent higher than those of conservative families, conservative-headed households give, on average, 30 percent more to charity than the average liberal-headed household ($1,600 per year vs. $1,227)."

Seems you agree with George on this and the measurable data coincides. GO FIGURE!?

"And they ain't doin' any studies to prove they aren't as selfish as everyone knows you are anyway."

I think you have confused yourself.

YLG
Your post was very polite and certainly no rant. Thanks for your service too!

My experience
I have been acquainted with all kinds of people through my life. The one thing that tells me the most about a persons character with regards to generosity is how well they tip the people who wait on them in restaurants. The two biggest cheapskates I have ever encountered have been liberal Democrats and phony loud-mouthed Christians (and they come in all stripes from Born Agains to Fundamentalist to Catholics).

I have on numerous occasions, watched Democrat, friends and work acquaintences take back part of the tip they had already put on the table when they saw that I was giving the individual a big tip (I usually give between 20 and 30% because I have worked in that business and I understand their struggle).

The phony Christians only give a big tip if they can find some way to ensure that everyone present knows about it. (I am in no way denouncing Christians in general because I am a Christian. Unfortnately there are lots of phonys I have come across over the years. The worst ones are the Catholics who advertise how Catholic they are and then vote for pro-abortion Democrats)

Feeling is cheap virtue
That's what I have concluded after years in a liberal field. When it comes to putting shoe leather on the abstract of feeling symapthetic, its always been what can be construed as conservative ideology that helps people. Its why I changed my ideological background in the late 80's, because I saw that the abstract of compassion in application is the exact opposite of liberal ideology.

An aside, my daughter did an experiment 4 years ago in which she observed and questioned 50 people in the check out at Shop Rite. She watched to see who bagged their own groceries in part or entirely or not at all, then asked them their political/ideological affiliation. Of 50 people, 12 did not have a political affiliation, 16 identified as conservative while the remaining 22 identified themselves as liberals. Of the 22 liberal, 3 bagged or helped to bag their own groceries. Of the 16 conservatives, 14 bagged or helped to bag their own groceries. Of the 12 non-affiliates, 10 helped to bag or bagged their own groceries. Interesting.

Big Jokers
Republicans talking about charity is like...Oj saying his going to find the real killers.

yeah,Real charity's are trying, to fix the damage You guys have done.

Another four years of you guys... and we'll all be holding donation buckets.

I got a million of 'em.

HeavyDoug...
Do you have any children? If so, those kids are living proof that Darwinism is BS.


Accept reality writes
"But I forget, Liberals do not believe in God unless a reference to him matches some cute bumper sticker slogan."

Yeah, like those paste-on fish that ride the backs of cars.

Oh, yeah, heavydoug, there's a
story in the Bible about giving. If you're unfamiliar with the story of the widow's mite, check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesson_of_the_widow's_mite

It's about an attitude of giving and selflessness. There was a recent story in the news about a study that showed that people who gave were happier than those that did not give. Our need to give is greater than the need is for those who need to be given to.

Badboy writes to Doug
"But I forget, Liberals do not believe in God unless a reference to him matches some cute bumper sticker slogan. "

Oh my, another example of typical conservative compassion and kindness.

Now that I've had my daily dose of hypocracy, I'm off for a swim.

Richard
I too worked in the business---and I totally know what you are talking about. I once recieved a Jahovahs Witness tract instead of a tip, I also recieved a card saying a donation was made in my name (I don't think they bothered to catch my name) for $20 to a homeless shelter. One "Christian" and one "secularist" both were CHEAP and made fools of their ideologies.

Big Jokers
Republicans talking about charity is like...Oj saying his going to find the real killers.

yeah,Real charity's are trying, to fix the damage You guys have done.

Another four years of you guys... and we'll all be holding donation buckets.

I got a million of 'em.

Do as I say, not as I do
If a donation is made "only" for a tax write-off obviously some think this is a bad thing. So, get rid of the write-off. The truth is that a donation is a deduction not a tax credit. You would understand the difference if you understood economics.

The complaints against the "rich" is nothing more than paycheck envy. Once again liberals want to decide what needs to be done with other people's money rather than their own. Does this sound like the type of person that wants to help the individual, the little guy? The more liberals speak, the more you understand how little they cherish freedom and the more you understand how they want to have government control what you earn and what you say.

Tibby

Tru Arnston
will the liberal non-sequitor ever end?

The fish is displayed as a declaration of belief, not as a tool to promote a political agenda.

Surely you understand this, but found it inconvenient to think it through.

beyond
The homeless shelter ones could have at least gave you the receipt so you could claim it on your taxes. But then, that donation was probably never made.

Don't they have to claim a certain percentage of their sales, ir-regardless of wether or not they got the tips?

Bingo Tibby,
Do you recall the reaction by the Dems when Bush ('08 State of Union) announced that it would be OK for individuals to send additional contributions to the treasury if they felt they were not being taxed enough? He even told them the method of payment that the treasury would accept.

Well, the 'compassionate ones' have failed to take advantage of that suggestion. They do not give THEIR money as Brooke has shown.

Let's broaden the request.
To my post at 11:08, we can agree that giving is more than money. Feel free to include things such as donating blood, taking in a parent so he or she does not have to live in a nursing home, donating time to others, providing your vocational expertise to others at no cost, whatever you feel demonstrates charity or compassion.

Suggestion for the Tax Rebate
I have a suggestion for this phony tax rebate that will achieve nothing more than to add to the national debt. Put it away in a fund for your kids or your gandchildren because that's who that money really belongs to.

heavydoug
I see, sense your posts have been shown to be feckless. All you have left is comedy whatever, makes you feel better about yourself, huh?

dumdoug
Your "joke", like you, doesn't even make sense.

Richard
I doubt the card for the homeless shelter was real. It looked over used. . .So I just tossed it.
Yes tips have to be claimed, that is how restaurants can pay a server below minimum wage. As too how honest most servers are about their tips is a question--I was not a server long enough to need to claim my tips. I quickly moved into the kitchen where my paycheck was all I recieved, and servers got payed tips on the merit of the food I cooked, oh well, I guess I can chalk that up to charitable work as well.

Another Joke
Hey let's do a study, then write an article on something that can never possibly be quantified, and reduce to a democrat/republican issue.

This is literally a "Holier than thou" arguement.

This is as transparent as it gets.

Smart guys, rea-lly smart.


Silly Rabbits, tricks are for kids.


Isabella

In you 8:24am post, you wrote: "It leads one to the conclusion that while their heart is in the right place, conservatives actually vote with their ears rather than with their heads."

Actually, as the article points out, the opposite is true.

You go on to say that the policies of Bush/McCain are the "most uncharitable".
What is an example? Have you looked into spending on foreign aid? Do you have any facts to support your assertion?
We're waiting....

Let's broaden the request II.
Sorry, I meant to my post at 10:08 (CDT).

donations
the people donating to charities did not invent the laws that allow tax write offs, congress wrote those laws. As long as it is a legal tax write off what it the problem. But the left thinks that without a tax write off no one would donate. But the missus clinton had no problem writing off bubba's used undies to get a tax write off. But tax write offs don't take into account the time people donate. I would guess that conservs are more giving of their time as well. If the left dsoesn't like the tax write off than don't use it when you file taxes, just donate and shut up

tru Arntson,
Without giving any of your strawmen an undeserved level of dignity by taking notice of them, ...

True compassion is about the long-term benefit to the recipient not the emotional boost to the giver.

True compassion is about promoting self-reliance rather than enabling dependence.

True compassion looks at the big picture rather than focusing on the trivial while ignoring the larger context.

True compassion is not afraid to apply "tough love" because the truly compassionate know that immunizing people against the consequences of destructive habits and lifestyle choices is not compassion.

True compassion knows how to prioritize -- caring for one's family, one's friends, one's community, one's region, one's country, and the world at large in that order.

True compassion distinguishes between those unable to help themselves and those who could themselves but who, through faults of their character, refuse to help themselves. True compassion reaches out with assistance to the former and rebukes the latter -- for appropriate correction aimed at the reform of wrongdoers is every bit as compassionate as the most tender care for the weak and the helpless.


stedes (8:51am)
You wrote: "conservative policies of favoring the wealthy and business are not compassionate"

Some of think that when you lower taxes on a business, that owner can hire more people. It's borne out in fact that helping business creates jobs. You may not see that as compassionate, but I do. You may prefer a handout, I prefer a job. It's more respectful of human dignity.
You call that economic genocide? Oh my.

You assert that the middle class has been destroyed. What is your evidence for that? Althoug more people have moved out of the middle class (upward), it still looks pretty solid to me.

And lastly, are you aware that more money went to stem cell research under the present administration than any other ever before?

Hello acceptreality
Always remember this, you are not required to take deductions on your tax return. When the Warren Buffets say that the rich aren't taxed enough all you need ask is this, "Did you itemize deductions on your tax return"

I think I know the answer.

Tibby

Heavydoug
What is a "real charity" and what damage has been done that these "real charity's" are trying to fix?

Figures don't lie
The compassionate conservatives give far more of their money to their churches than liberals do. Of course, the overhead of the various churches are far greater than the average charity.

When the Combined Federal Campaign came around, they had a nice pamphlet (truly an informative pamphlet) that showed the overhead of the various charities, local and national. If conservatives wish to say they give more to charity by tithing to their churches, lets compare the overhead and the true donation to charity. This is one more incident of figures don't lie but liars figure.

acceptreality (9:34am)
Your list pretty much sums up the most cogent of liberal objections to the article!

Mother of 4
Well said. I am going to save that.

DUM DOUG: this is really striking a raw nerve with you isn't it? Why is that? You a bit on the cheap side? Kind of like Clinton trying to distract everyone away from the fact that he is a scumbag by claiming everyone is a scumbag but he's just not a hypocrite cause he never stood for anything better anyway.

Bleeding Heart
Combined Federal Campaign? So do you work for the Government?

Dexl and Beyond the Pale...
About eight years ago, my wife and I finally learned (after 16 years of marriage) that we had our budget upside down! We were the type of givers that gave AFTER all the other expenses were met. Thanks to Dave Ramsey and his Financial Peace University, we were debt free (other than our mortgage) in 20 months and now have our budget priorities in order!

Being free from debt has allowed to us to tithe 10% each week on "the first fruits" and also give to our other favorite charities, some of which are not religious in nature. TurboTax figured our charitable giving at 12.1% for 2007. That doesn't count the time spent donating blood, which we do regularly, the time I spend repairing appliances that are donated to need families, and the clothes and furniture we donate to various causes like Goodwill and Salvation Army.

I do not state these things to puff myself up but to give glory to God for allowing me and my family to see the important things in life and focus on what He has called us as individuals to do.

Heavy Doug (9:53am)
The statistics that were reported were percents, Doug. Therefore, the poorer guy who gave a greater percent would have been reported as having given more.

That Mr. Obama is extremely well funded does not say much about charity. I'm not sure what your point is there, unless it's that liberals consider political campaign donations to be charitable giving and concervatives do not.

The hooey's all yours.


perpetuating misery
Our country has the fattest and most material-laden poor people the world has ever seen. The great economist Walter Williams has provided evidence of that. The majority of the poor choose that lifestyle.

The vast majority of those who live in perpetual government custodial care, human pets to a liberal, have willfully chosen that life because they are not asked for anything and are not held responsible for their lives. And the money arrives on time with few questions, if any, asked. Without rigorous demands and requirements of those who live off others, great social mischief thrives.

But the left needs a stable of poor and dependent people in order to maintain power, no matter how many people suffer. If people personally gave to charity, the danger, as a leftist sees it, is that they might expect the beneficiary to straighten up their life.

Whatever you finance you get more of. Whatever you demand others to finance in regard to self-destructive living, you are a heartless, self-absorbed petty tyrant.

An excellent read on the subject of government "caring" is the book, "Life at the Bottom" by Theodore Dalrymple. It's about England's government handout system, but it matches ours very closely. Due to government giving, they have a huge social mess on their hands with no end in sight.

Taft
I think you lack an understanding of state law when you say this:

"George W. Bush during his six years as governor of Texas presided over 152 executions, more than any other governor in the recent history of the United States."

That is true as far as it goes, but no governor may actually order the execution of a criminal. The only power a governor has is to stop the execution. Texas is a populous state which uses the death penalty a lot. I actually graphed this out once. The governors before and after Bush also "presided over" more executions than any other governor simply because the death penalty is frequently used in Texas. It doesn't really matter if the governor is Ann Richards, G. W. Bush, or Mickey Mouse, Texas tends to lead the union in executions.


Richard
Yes I did. I can hardly wait for the critique at my presumption for actually working for the federal government.

Heavy gives up
Okay, I've read the study and you've convinced me...

That I will never see self-aggrandizing repubs as anything but petty.

When is the Catholic Church Going to do a study proving they help more than the Baptist Church?

You guys want to the wrong battles.

Some Dems are charitable some are not.

Some Repubs are charitable some are not.

It depends on the person and circumstance.

Sheesh.


So easily divided. Start being Americans. Stop your whining and help as much as you can when you can.

Charity
I will give liberals this - they are extremely generous with otehr people's money.

Bleeding Heart
I guess you won't answer my question so I will assume you work for the government. I do and all I can say is that if you believe that charities have a higher overhead than government you are a blind idiot.

Government bureaucrats live for the possibility of increasing the size of their staff and the increasing ability to spend more money. It's what gets them high ratings on their evalutations. "So and SO was responsible for the proper allocation of over 4 million dollars in Title ?? funds and mangaged a staff of over 25 case workers and ?? cases...."

Take a look at this Bleeding Heart
http://www.heritage.org/Research/GovernmentReform/bg962.cfm

Heacy
"Okay, I've read the study and you've convinced me...

That I will never see self-aggrandizing repubs as anything but petty."

If the study showed the opposite, liberals would never stop crowing about it.

CFC
I work for the Government. The CFC, or combined federal campagin, does have a book that provides the amount of money (as a percentage) of funds used for administrative purposes (not overhead). These percentages are available elsewhere as well.

I am also a Christian. Unlike other charities, churches are designed to provide full-time service to the community in which they serve. The building, pastor, etc. for which much of the giving pays for are available everyday. Churches provide free counseling, food drives, children's ministries such as vacation Bible school and AWANA, voting stations, etc. And while we are expected to give 10% to the church, we are also expected to give much more by providing time, collecting food, etc. We are expected to share additional money for special collections as well. In addition, many of us give above and beyond this amount to our favorite charities such as Food for the Poor, WorldVision, etc. My guess is that the average Christian who tithes also gives more in terms of percentage to additional charities than liberals do to ANY charity.

Richard, did you read my post?
Did I say government was more efficient?

What I wasn't clear about was I believe that if you tithe to church and that church uses 50 to 90% of the tithe for day to day operations, that is not the same as tithing to a charity that uses 10% or less for overhead. Both are charitable deductions, but one is more effective than the other.

Dum Doug
I specifically remember this being a bit of trivial news in 1980. In 1976 the Democrats held their convention in New York City. In 1980 the Republicans held their convention in New York City. Reporters from the liberal press went around to resaurants and hotels in New York city and questioned workers who were in their line of work for both conventions and found they overwhelmingly had the same opinion. In 1976 the Democrat convention attendees were more likely to be rude to them and to stiff them on tips. They overwhelmingly said that the Republicans were much nicer and more generous with the tips.

BHL
"What I wasn't clear about was I believe that if you tithe to church and that church uses 50 to 90% of the tithe for day to day operations, that is not the same as tithing to a charity that uses 10% or less for overhead"

This doesn't change the main theme of the piece, which was that conservatives give to charity more generously than liberals. What happens to the money afterward is a separate issue.

Richard do you even know what the CFC is
It is a direct payroll deduction to a specific charity. Your referenced site has no relativity to the CFC and donations to charity.

Bleeding Heart
Christians don't just give to thier churches. While churches do participate in charitiable work they are not the only outlet for it. All churches have seperate fundraising to support missionaries, homeless shelters, etc...

Private cahrities have been shown to be far more efficient because they tend to be local and can rely on lower paid staff and lots of voluteers. To distribute government handouts to people who may or may not need it requires lots of GS12 and 14s in Washinton DC, and God only know how many social workers at the state level. It's an enormous expense and never gets cheaper. Govenement programs only have a propensity for growing and increasing in their inefficiency.

FROG
I'm in agreement with you. The liberals are the ones who started this argument by saying that conservatives don't give--then when it is prooved we do "give" then we are not giving to "real" charities---My earlier post was meant a sarcasm---For the person who gives, giving is not something we really keep tabs on, or can necessarily be defined by a static set of rules. But as always libs want to define "giving" from their perspective. What really tweeks them is that "our" charity is not "their" charity---I just have one question; who made them so superior as to think they can define the motives, and nature of my giving to fit their political and social objectives?

I also have a question for the Greenies out there---When America converts to biofuel and is using its land and produce for fuel--how are we going to keep up the nations promises of charity work to the world? Do you feel better knowing that while you drive your stupid biofuel car that a child in Haiti, or Africa didn't get their meal today because the corn we used to feed them went into your car? How very caring of you.

Bleeding Heart
My reference is not about the CFC it is about how inefficient the government is and that fact that it just keeps getting worse. Something that is not true of most charitable organizations.

Wrongheaded Re-pubs
Who gives more Americans or Canadians?

Tall people or short people?

Men or women?

Who do I love the most Mommy?.. or Daddy?

Round and round you go little lemmings.

Here's a REAL question for America:

How come all high school seniors in America aren't given financial literacy classes?


If you guys need studys to convince you that you are good people- it eliminates the need for a study.

George Wills, and You guys need to get on track.

The Definition of Happiness
It seems that liberals and conservatives agree that it is good for people to help others achieve happiness.

But to the liberals happiness is defined as living a life of indulgence without responsibility and without need to work.

While to conservatives happiness is defined as living a productive, useful life working at a job that offers a sense of achievement, the financial ability to support a family in reasonable comfort, and the possibility of achieving prosperity.

Liberals define compassion as supporting people so they can live indulgent, responsibility-free lives of leisure.

Conservatives define compassion and putting people on the path to being productive, useful citizens.

Doug
"Who gives more Americans or Canadians?

Tall people or short people?

Men or women?

Who do I love the most Mommy?.. or Daddy?

Round and round you go little lemmings."

And I repeat, if the study showed the opposite, liberals would crow about it till the end of time.

AZP
It is exactly the issue and not a separate point. Consider this:

I religiously support my state lottery because 50% of every dollar I wager goes to the schools. Will you applaud my donation to the lottery as selfless and charitable? If you don't shout "Bull" there is something wrong.

If I donate the same amount to a church I am selfless and charitable. I shout "Bull".

Wrongheaded Re-pubs
Who gives more Americans or Canadians?

Tall people or short people?

Men or women?

Who do I love the most Mommy?.. or Daddy?

Round and round you go little lemmings.

Here's a REAL question for America:

How come all high school seniors in America aren't given financial literacy classes?


If you guys need studys to convince you that you are good people- it eliminates the need for a study.

George Wills, and You guys need to get on track.

Pale Rider
"The liberals are the ones who started this argument by saying that conservatives don't give--then when it is prooved we do "give" then we are not giving to "real" charities"

Typical liberals - always trying to move the goal posts.

Bush is dumber than Kerry (oh wait, they went to the same school and Bush got better grades). "Well, college grades don't mean anything"

Bush beats Gore in the electoral vote in 2000: "wait, why don't we use the popular vote now (for the first time in 212 years)".

Chelsea: "I'll answer all your questions" (Did your mom respond correctly after the Lewinsky thing blew up (so to speak)? Chelsea: None of your business.

Middle Class Struggling?
Some have suggested that the middle class needs charity because they are struggling so much. As a member of the middle class,(at least I think I am. It depends on whose definition you use.)I would rather give to the poor who are struggling to survive, rather that the middle class who are struggling to pay for the toys they overspent for. Many years ago, shortly after building our house, our family suffered some financial hardships just before Christmas. We had no money for presents so we made some simple items for our children. A friend of ours who knew of our situation spread the work of our financial plight to a couple of local charities. Many anonymous gifts showed up on our doorstep. So many that we gave some of them away. Now each year, my family has a tradition of providing Christmas to a needy family. It's the least I can do for the kindness of others when I was in need.

BHL
"I religiously support my state lottery because 50% of every dollar I wager goes to the schools. Will you applaud my donation to the lottery as selfless and charitable? "

I assume this is not a serious question. If you are donating to charity but hoping to get something back for it, it isn't true charity. Using your logic, I've "donated" hundreds of dollars to the Las Vegas economy.

Public vs. private charity.

After scanning the posts, it confirmed to me (once again) that this subject matter really strikes a raw nerve with the lefties.

Because it exposes what they fear most; that they are true fakes in both word and deed.

That their words or ideas hurt rather than help. That their personal deeds fall woefully short.
And that it is all about their power and control.

For example... how many black families have literally been torn apart during the last few decades by the public charity of welfare?

Absolutely shameful.






AZPhil writes
"And I repeat, if the study showed the opposite, liberals would crow about it till the end of time."

You are absolutely right ! !!!

Democrats, aka liberals, are always generous with other people's money.

I am curious. Are there any conservative Democrats in Congress? I do not mean this as a joke; I am serious. Are there any ? Who are they?

Tibby

Why
are liberals who are so reactionary at any link between Christian moral thought and gov't so inclined to impose their morality on the rest of us through social programs?

Is relief of the poor a "moral responsibility"? Virtually all liberals agree that it is... in fact their whole political system is built on the idea of "good gov't"... gov't that does "good" for its citizens.

The basic problem then is that they presume to tell the rest of us what "good" is. They want to impose their morality on the rest of us... and at the same time squeal when Christians allow their religion to inform their political views and then speak out.

Pale rider/Tibby
More examples of moving the goal post (see Matt Lewis):

A common criticism of liberals is that they famously enjoy tinkering with rules in order to achieve the outcomes they desire. And now HRC is "re-thinking delegate apportionment". Of course she is - she's behind!!!!

Q. What's the definition of an unfair election?

A. One in which the democrat loses.

AZphil
once again, you make my point.

From my non religious point of view, most religious people do expect to get something back, primarily salvation and resurrection.

Check Out Liberal Lilly's Compassion:
Here's a beauty from Lilly last night. It shows her compassionate side for the down trodden...
And to think you all pig piled on Wildwest for being mean to her...shame on you!

Heeeeerrrreeee's Lilly!

"lilly writes: Wednesday, March, 26, 2008 5:24 PM
Bamadox
Sorry, perhaps I didn't make my meaning clear. When I quoted the saying that Pennsylvania consists of Philadelphia and Pittsburg connected by Alabama, I mean to convey the idea that the Pennsylvanian hinterlands are populated by poorly educated, socially regressive, backwards, incompetent people. Like Alabama."


Doug,
Can you be anymore obtuse? You get pilloried for conclusions that have no relationship to the article and no basis in logic. Then, when caught, you hide behind the moral equivalency argument.


BHL
Okay, if you want to equate gambling with being charitable, fine by me. If you REALLY want to know the definition of charity, here it is:

Play the lottery all the time. Suppose you win $50M. After you pay the government the $20M in taxes, of the remaining $30M, give (let's say) $5M to "the schools" that you are so concerned with.

beyond the pale
We don't have to go to Haiti or Africa to see the effects of the ethanol mandate on food budgets.

Between that and the drought, I've seen the price of basic foods I use go up a good 25% this past year. Lamb and shrimp have become a distant dream. I've had to say goodbye to fish. Beef, even hamburger and round, is now a luxury. Chicken and turkey are climbing. Only pork has held at a reasonable level.

I expect my stomach is strong enough to hold up to knowing what farmers are feeding to the pigs instead of the corn (pigs being capable of eating just about anything -- unlike cattle, sheep, and poultry), but I'd bet a week's grocery money most people would rather not know. ;-)

How long will it be before the same people who demanded biofuels will demand tax increases to fund foreign aid to relieve the hunger of people who are starving because we're burning food instead of drilling for oil in ANWAR and off the east coast?

As normal
liberals lie, as is evidence by their bumperstickers, their lifestyle, their giving, and their requirement that money be taken from those that have and give to those that haven't.

Convervatives believe we need to give a hand to teach and assist. Then those that don't have can eventually provide for themselves. I know that is considered "mean" by liberals. But I seldom run into them at the second hand clothing store and the pregnancy center I collect clothes for.

And Ralph Nader had it backwards.

Accept Reality
The problem for liberals is right there in your screen name (or "nom de guerre" if you like): They can't.

Altruism is bad for conservatives
I believe the points of this article. Being more charitable than liberals, however, is nothing to brag about. I'd rather witness greater political activism from the right as well as financial entrepreneurship. I'm disturbed that liberal households make more money even though that statistic is skewed by the higher salaries and costs of living in the large left-wing cities. Charity should be reserved for the unfortunate. Almost all of its recipients, alas, are merely undeserving. Conservatives undermine their own great cause by supporting the reckless. Personally, if I have 3.5 percent of my income burning a hole in my bank account, I'll donate it to McCain 2008.

Call me whatever you want.

LibMark
Try answering a question that way in court sometime, and see if it is deemed "non-responsive".

ModMark: How's your day going?
AZPhil: Go screw yourself.

Yep, I responded...

George Wills
You owe us an apology.

The very title of your column suggests a tit-for-tat arguement.

The useless kind of infighting Americans have wasted time with too long.

This is a "Paris Hilton" distraction by the media.


Red Herring, Straw Man, piece of crap decoy.

Okay, let's turn upside down and look at it.

Let's say Mr. Wills is correct, Conservatives give more than Liberals.

So what. That and a quarter doesn't even get a phone call.

You get some feeling of superiority?

Oh? it shows our hypocrisy you say? We don't practice what we preach?

We still get squat. Nothing. Nowhere.

What is it they say about proving a negative?


I think these petty arguements are beneath all of us.

Go ahead and blow your horn if you want to, but really good people don't need articles and studies to know who they are.

I think Wills should apologize. To Everyone.


Maximilian
I was in the AF for 20 years and am familiar with CFC. You say this: "Charity should be reserved for the unfortunate." I agree...and I chose charities that helped blind veterans and groups of that nature.

Guilty Consciences?

Maybe Republicans and Conservatives give more to charity because they feel guilty about ripping off poor people??

I don't really believe this, but after all the Liberal-trashing I've read in the comments above it seems like a fair proposition...

Taft
writes, "Brooks's trying to dupe good people
Brooks doesn't get anything right.

"Other scholars, like Paul Schervish, a sociologist and head of the Center on Wealth and Philanthropy at Boston College, express doubts about the claims, though he found them hard to check on short notice..."

The main thing Brooks is saying and the main conclusion of his research is the extremely strong correlation of religion with giving. He used many sources to corroborate his findings. Before reading your post, I was actually reading the actual report of Schervish. He found the same thing. Lets look:

" Differences in average amounts of giving per household among states are in large part due to differences in average amounts of religious giving per household, which is individually determined and as much reflects religiosity, religious commitment, and denominational category as well as generosity."

"In the Northeast and Pacific states religious
giving, on average, is less than secular giving; in the “Bible Belt” of the South and Plains states, religious giving, on average, is considerable higher than secular giving. Members of the Latter Day Saints consistently give larger average amounts and larger percentages of their income to religion in every state as compared to adherents of other religions."

"In summary, a state’s population is not a homogeneous group of households..Given this complexity and diversity within each state, one cannot portray state-level indices as
measures of the generosity of the population."

Ya, it's all about religion. Sounds to me like Brooks and Schervish are on the same page. The simple fact that some states that trend blue ranked high on Schervish's report means nothing and he says so.

http://www.tbf.org/uploadedFiles/CWP%20Report.pdf



Charitable Conservatives
That's always been the problem. "Those damn republicans are rich and greedy." According to most liberals anyway. But conservatives give to the causes directly and don't expect or want the government to 'take care' of everyone. It's ridiculous. As a conservative I have a heart and will help anyone out that needs it. I just dislike the idea of big government telling me what I must do with my hard earned dollars.

Taft
writes, "Brooks's trying to dupe good people
Brooks doesn't get anything right.

"Other scholars, like Paul Schervish, a sociologist and head of the Center on Wealth and Philanthropy at Boston College, express doubts about the claims, though he found them hard to check on short notice..."

The main thing Brooks is saying and the main conclusion of his research is the extremely strong correlation of religion with giving. He used many sources to corroborate his findings. Before reading your post, I was actually reading the actual report of Schervish. He found the same thing. Lets look:

" Differences in average amounts of giving per household among states are in large part due to differences in average amounts of religious giving per household, which is individually determined and as much reflects religiosity, religious commitment, and denominational category as well as generosity."

"In the Northeast and Pacific states religious
giving, on average, is less than secular giving; in the “Bible Belt” of the South and Plains states, religious giving, on average, is considerable higher than secular giving. Members of the Latter Day Saints consistently give larger average amounts and larger percentages of their income to religion in every state as compared to adherents of other religions."

"In summary, a state’s population is not a homogeneous group of households..Given this complexity and diversity within each state, one cannot portray state-level indices as
measures of the generosity of the population."

Ya, it's all about religion. Sounds to me like Brooks and Schervish are on the same page. The simple fact that some states that trend blue ranked high on Schervish's report means nothing and he says so.

heavydoug
Congrats, you’ve managed to accomplish two things with your last post: 1) You successfully demonstrated that you can somehow totally miss the point of of a very coherent article, and 2) You established you are capable of posting responses in an extremely annoying manner.

Doug
"Let's say Mr. Wills is correct, Conservatives give more than Liberals."

It's George WILL.

"You get some feeling of superiority?"

No, it just proves mathematically what I've long suspected.

"Oh? it shows our hypocrisy you say? We don't practice what we preach?"

Well, since you mentioned it first, yes.



Lotteries and Chelsea
Bleeding Brain Liberal: I would expect a liberal to put a lot of money on the lottery. According to Ambrose Bierce the lottery is "a tax on people who are bad at math", ie a tax on the unthinking.

MOD MARK: If you ask me a question and I just give you the finger that is a response it is not an answer. Chelsea said she would answer questions but this particular questioner did not get an answer, they got the finger.

BHL
Bleeding heart says: Bleeding Heart Liberal writes: Thursday, March, 27, 2008 12:41 PM
"AZphil -once again, you make my point.

From my non religious point of view, most religious people do expect to get something back, primarily salvation and resurrection."

And from your nonreligious viewpoint you would be wrong. As christians know as the bible teaches it is neither works or charity that lead to salvation...it is belief in Jesus.

FLM
"Maybe Republicans and Conservatives give more to charity because they feel guilty about ripping off poor people??"

In what way do we "rip off" poor people?


AZPhil
You're right about the veterans' charities. They provide a valuable service.

Angels of mercy
"George W. Bush during his six years as governor of Texas presided over 152 executions, more than any other governor in the recent history of the United States."

Too bad other states don't follow Texas's lead and take out the trash.

Compassion to victims of violent crime via justice is something liberals never have.

Retard Terry Washington stabbed a woman 85 times. He got off light compared to his victim.

Now he's in Retard Heaven with plenty of "normal liberals to keep him company.

Illogic
To criticize charitable giving because of the tax write-off it total illogic. The deduction only reduces the amount of money taxes, the reduction in taxes paid is considerably less then the amount donated.

Anyone who gives charitably only for the tax write-off would have to be a fool.

I prefer to give where it will do the most good, rather than where it will give me the most "good feelings". Government welfare is mostly a waste of money, doesn't necessarily go to those who need it most, further finances govt. bureaucracy, and yields more power to the already too big Federal Government.

Cat Scratch Fever
aka ted Nugent - I was about to bring up that Biblical reference, but thank you.

I was off to do some volunteer work, but just stopped by 7-11 and bought some lottery tickets instead:)

It's very simple
Of course liberals favor forced government redistribution over personal charitable giving....for a very simple reason.

If all charitable giving was purely personal choice, groups such as, “The Gay and Lesbian Worker’s Union of Pro-Choice Undocumented Americans Opposed to the Military” would simply dry up and go away.

Libs and their 'special' groups need legalized government muggings in order to survive.

LibMark
Technically, Chelsea gave a response (i.e., she opened her mouth). But I see your confusion - your party does't even know the meaning of the word "is".

Tom the Thinker
Yes, Tom and the other logical thing Ilogic seems to miss is, that many "conservatives" can't even write-off charitable donations off their taxes. Yet, they give anyway.

AZPhil
Damn you!

"I was off to do some volunteer work, but just stopped by 7-11 and bought some lottery tickets instead:)"

Where was the mandatory spew alert!

AZ phil
Good luck with those tickets!!

Of course the libs here wouldn't understand if you gave some of it to charity. Because afterall, in their uninformed, illogical way of thinking your...evil!

Mother of 4 goes fishing ...
I totally agree with the fishing allegory in your 8:50 post.

Conservatives want to teach a person to fish, while liberals want to take that fish and give it away. Liberals need a dependent constituency, otherwise their ideals fail.

Is this the so-called litmus test? II
Why so few respondents to my request of 10:08? Might it not somewhat support or refute the point made in the article, however unscientific it may be? There's nothing to be ashamed or proud of. Our giving of time and talent is simply what it is. It's each of our decision, after all. It would seem to me that if our actions support our assertion that we truly practice what are generally thought of as acts of charity or generosity, we'd welcome the opportunity to tell of them. No?

Icedog
You miss the point.

Facts and figures don't define the human heart.

If you had one, a heart that is, this would not be a foreign concept.

Modmark
"No shame here"

--Wasn't talking to you. It was to other conservative posters that were influenced by an idiot that doesn't know Wildwest, and who stirred up the hullabaloo about him.

"Certain our dear Lilly is not immune to responses from our fellow posters."

-Certainly not. She can throw them, we catch them, and throw them back. Perhaps the joy of attempting to humiliate us conservatives is giving her the will to continue posting here.

"But was Mr. west request that see enjoy the taste of Obama big black *ock in line with her post?"

--Perhaps, perhaps not. Perhaps Lilly is keen on the idea and Wildwest was being charitable to her desire? She certainly does love Obama, like a girl in puppy love, her beau can do no wrong.

"Ahh, but it is an issue for free speech and I wish I could use such language at times. But when I do, my post will vanish and the name ModerateMark is banished from the land of TH."

--I know what you mean. Like what happened to Imus--that was rough. Do you think if Wright had a radio show, he'd be fired? Al Sharpton still does...Hmm, freedom of speech only applies where needed.

"I only ask if you wish to insult me, please be creative so all can enjoy."

--I wasn't referring to you to begin with, so stop poofing your tail at me. But this post is minorly insulting, I hope I was a wee bit more creative for your liking...It is very important to me to keep it lively.


ModMark
Just curious, would you please give me an example of a specific country you believe we can, "teach to fish"?

....and how long do you think is a fair amount of time for them to "learn"?

Obama's charitable givings
From 2000 to 2004, Obama earned over $1,000,000 and gave right at $11,000 to charitable causes. Miserly hypocrite!

heavydoug
Ahhh I see....the "facts and figures" of actual giving doesn't really matter. It's all about "feelings" and "the human heart".

As long as "I feel" charitable, that's all that really matters.

You do understand that Mr. Will was simply demonstrating the falsehoods of decades-old liberal myths?

Chelsea's response
AZPhil wrote:
Technically, Chelsea gave a response (i.e., she opened her mouth). But I see your confusion - your party does't even know the meaning of the word "is".

The only surprise about her response was that she was able to open her mouth without some Democrat Male Politician who is wholeheartely supported by the radical feminists didn't try to stick something in it.

ModMark
I never called you DemMark. Isn't that a Scandinavian country?

Icedog
Just remember "implied spew alert" from here on...

ModMark
Just FYI...two new parodies at my blog. I know you enjoy them :-)

DexL
writes, "It would seem to me that if our actions support our assertion that we truly practice what are generally thought of as acts of charity or generosity, we'd welcome the opportunity to tell of them. No?"

For many, the correct answer is, no.

Matt 6:

1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
• • •
4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly

Simple dog
Charity has nothing to do with democrat/repub.

Period.

Get over it, dude.

It's really that simple.