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Friday, January 18, 2008
George Will :: Townhall.com Columnist
Fact-Checking the Straight-Talk
by George Will
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


WASHINGTON -- In 2004, one of John McCain's closest associates, John Weaver, spoke to John Kerry about the possibility of McCain running as Kerry's vice presidential running mate. In "No Excuses," Bob Shrum's memoir of his role in numerous presidential campaigns, including Kerry's, Shrum writes that Weaver assured Kerry that "McCain was serious about the possibility of teaming up with him," and Kerry approached McCain. He, however, was more serious about seeking the 2008 Republican nomination.

But was it unreasonable for Kerry to think McCain might be comfortable on a Democratic ticket? Not really.

In ABC's New Hampshire debate, McCain said: "Why shouldn't we be able to reimport drugs from Canada?" A conservative's answer is:

That amounts to importing Canada's price controls, a large step toward a system in which some medicines would be inexpensive but many others -- new pain-relieving, life-extending pharmaceuticals -- would be unavailable. Setting drug prices by government fiat rather than market forces results in huge reductions of funding for research and development of new drugs. McCain's evident aim is to reduce pharmaceutical companies' profits. But if all those profits were subtracted from the nation's health care bill, the pharmaceutical component of that bill would be reduced only from 10 percent to 8 percent -- and innovation would stop, taking a terrible toll in unnecessary suffering and premature death. When McCain explains that trade-off to voters, he will actually have engaged in straight talk.

There are decent, intelligent people who believe that equity or efficiency or both are often served by government setting prices. In America, such people are called Democrats.

Because McCain is a "maverick" -- the media encomium reserved for Republicans who reject important Republican principles -- he would be a conciliatory president. He has indeed worked with Ted Kennedy on immigration reform, with Russ Feingold on restricting political speech (McCain-Feingold) and with Kennedy and John Edwards -- a trial lawyer drawn to an enlargement of opportunities for litigation -- on the "patients' bill of rights."

McCain is, however, an unlikely conciliator because he is quick to denigrate the motives, and hence the characters, of those who oppose him. He promiscuously accuses others of "corruption," the ubiquity of which he says justifies McCain-Feingold's expansive government regulation of the quantity, timing and content of campaign speech.

McCain says he would nominate Supreme Court justices similar to Antonin Scalia, Clarence Thomas, John Roberts and Sam Alito. But how likely is he to nominate jurists who resemble those four: They consider his signature achievement constitutionally dubious.

When the Supreme Court upheld McCain-Feingold 5-4, Scalia and Thomas were in the minority. That was before Alito replaced Sandra Day O'Connor, who was in the majority. Two years later, McCain filed his own brief supporting federal suppression of a right-to-life group's issue advertisement in Wisconsin because it mentioned a candidate for federal office during the McCain-Feingold blackout period prior to an election. The court ruled 5-4 against McCain's position, with Alito in the majority.

In the New Hampshire debate, McCain asserted that corruption is the reason drugs currently cannot be reimported from Canada. The reason is "the power of the pharmaceutical companies." When Mitt Romney interjected, "Don't turn the pharmaceutical companies into the big bad guys," McCain replied, "Well, they are."

There is a place in American politics for moralizers who think in such Manichaean simplicities. That place is in the Democratic Party, where people who talk like McCain are considered not mavericks but mainstream.

Republicans are supposed to eschew demagogic aspersions concerning complicated economic matters. But applause greets faux "straight talk" that brands as "bad" the industry responsible for the facts that polio is no longer a scourge, that childhood leukemia is no longer a death sentence, that depression and other mental illnesses are treatable diseases, that the rate of heart attacks and heart failures has been cut more than in half in 50 years.

When McCain and Joe Lieberman introduced legislation empowering Congress to comprehensively regulate U.S. industries' emissions of greenhouse gases in order to "prevent catastrophic global warming," they co-authored an op-ed column that radiated McCainian intolerance of disagreement. It said that a U.N. panel's report "puts the final nail in denial's coffin about the problem of global warming." Concerning the question of whether human activity is causing catastrophic warming, they said, "the debate has ended."

Interesting, is it not, that no one considers it necessary to insist that "the debate has ended" about whether the Earth is round. People only insist that a debate stop when they are afraid of what might be learned if it continues.

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About The Author
George F. Will is a 1976 Pulitzer Prize winner whose columns are syndicated in more than 400 magazines and newspapers worldwide.
 
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Well, I guess McCain would know
about corruption.

Does the Keating Scandal ring any bells?

I really detest the clown.

McCainian Intolerance
Interesting words which simplified mean- he brooks no opinions contrary to his own. Example- his determination to shove the immigration fiasco on us. He said "I always do what's right"-that's in HIS opinion and he said the 70% of American CITIZENS who disagreed were stupid and evil. He wants to be king, dictator, tyrant and is totally unfit for the power of POTUS.
In Arizona, he will never again be elected to anything!

Fred is the ONLY consistent conservative.

So quick Mr. Will
George writes, "Interesting, is it not, that no one considers it necessary to insist that "the debate has ended" about whether the Earth is round. People only insist that a debate stop when they are afraid of what might be learned if it continues."

So true. It really is amazing how much support and how mainstream republican people like McCain can be perveived. That's why we have the term RINO. It also explains the frustration level of many of us here regarding the future of our country. There really is no differences in the parties, only between an increasingly smaller constitutional minority and all the rest.

It's hard to watch, every day, the progress made by the forces for more control. Between the hysterical calls for a return to the cart and buggy to combat AGW, the constant dire predictions for the economy while it chugs along oblivious, and all the nanny state intrusions for our own good, it gets downright depressing. It's no wonder so many are ready to just turn over their lives to absolute big brother control. The population is being educated, manipulated, and scared into relinquishing our liberty for darn near everything but a martian invasion. If AGW fails, they might just try it. Um, guys, some really really powerful aliens just contacted our government and said if we didn't stop burning carbon stuff, they were going to eradicate us as a threat to the universe. They won't show themselves to you but, trust me.

Hopefully, if that happens, I will have a towel handy and my trusty guide with the words DON'T PANIC clearly embossed on the cover. Won't do me much good if it's just a farce though.


Well, good for you, Roberto
And when Thompson wins, I'll get a real kick out of watching your head explode.

Not that THAT will be anything new.

McCain's liberal side
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's a duck.Actions speak louder than words.I think we all have the picture.He still will always be a hero and deserves the respect that entails.Fred Thompson has disagreed with his policies and has not been shy about it so I believe the voters will be able to make the right decision when they go to the polls.They are friends now and will be after the election I don't believe these two will be working very closely though in the future.Funny how Mc Cain's ,Huckabee's,and Giuliani's new plans resemble Thompson's that were put out month's ago.Shame because if a man runs for the highest office in the land you'd think he wouldn't have to plagiarize policy from a candidate they publicly tried to demean.

Wow Wobbie
You Just hate Tompson don't you?
Are you sure your BDS isn't morphing into TDS?

Suyddenly you've shifted from constantly trashing Your commander in chief, to Trashing Thompson.

Something about him must really frighten you.

Good, now you know how every american feels when they think that it may just be possible that you were actually a Naval Officer.

It must be really lonely Being You.

I must be a noob
why is it wrong to import safe drugs from a Free Canada but Running up a huge trade deficit by importing poisoned food and toys from Communist China is OK?

Why is McCain slammed
By "conservatives" for regulating big business but GWB and the rest of the "conservatives" regulate the citizens with out remark?
I honestly would rather see a corporation regulated for emissions than an individual regulated for thoughts or intents. (HR1955, hate crime legislation, and the patriot act)

USMC LT, you're right!
It can't explode.

I should have written "implode".

Good ole Roberto, the TH Court Jester, or as they used to call them in medieval times, the Fool.



Yo, Roberto
You're going to "drive around with a bumper sticker on all your cars"?

What, is that one big, long bumper sticker, and your cars being driven in a brace? You gonna cut that bumper sticker up into pieces and put a piece on each car? Won't that kinda make the message incoherent? Of course, that's nothing new.

Man, you really do need to learn the English language. And you claim to be a pilot!


Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!

SeekerofTruth
Believe me, Bush is slammed all the time for those things; he's no conservative at all, and has pretty much worn out whatever welcome he had.

After his JOD brief filed yesterday on the DC gun case at SCOTUS, I can hardly wait for January 2009 to come around. Good riddance, and I hope to never have to see another Bush in public office again.

Bush brought us scamnesty, NCLB, Scrips for Seniors, Harriett Meiers, Alberto Gonzales, couldn't even find his veto pen for 6 years.... believe me, he's been a mess. He was right on the tax cuts and the war, IMO, and that's about it.

Didn't even follow through on Social Security reform.


BrianR
Can you explain my question about drugs from Canada and trading for poison with communist China?
I really do not understand that question.
it seems to me that trading with Canada for drugs would benefit people. Especially if we are the party of global markets and free trade

This is a for real honest question

Defending McCain on McCain Feingold
Granted the bill sucked.
BUT when Washington is broken for so long and coorporations gain so much power. Somehting has to be done.
The GOP was in charge and they should have fixed it a long time before McCain got his liberal paws on it.
You cant blame McCain for a bad attempt at fixing something broken when you just ignored it.

Seeking truth my a--!
If you are serious about your handle, go back and CAREFULLY re-read paragragh 3.

And you know d--m well NO ONE is advocating deliberately importing "poisoned" products.

As for McCain-Feingold (aka the Incumbent Protection Act); the original post-Watergate campaign finance "reform" got us in the current mess. Obviously, the only real solution is MORE government control, right? That must be why McCain-Feingold worked so well.

latebloomer
It is an honest question that simply needs an answer. I would appreciate it if you answered it instead of smeared me.

Our government is designed to ONLY to protect the liberty of the people against THREATS both foreign and DOMESTIC. Corporatism is a real lagitamte threat. It how many people went to jail over the Ambrmoff scandle? How much money was and is special interest pumping into washington legislation?
Even the NEO CON hero Mitt said today specail interest has ruined washington.

There could have been 100 different alternative. BUT no one else did anything. If you want to complain complain to them for not doing something better sooner.

seeker of ?
the reason we don't reimport drugs from CANADA is the same reason CANADIANS stream over our border to get surgeries performed (you do know they don't REIMPORT thier own specialists and best doctors don't you). You know the lifesaving kind that thier National system tells them to wait on.

Now please SEEK THE TRUTH in my statement above think of the differences between our countries HEALTH methods and which one YOU prefer.

1. Canadian model of no new medical progress in both Surgury and Pharmaceutical industries where everyone is happy to get thier VIAGRA cheaper than the USA but upset that the back surgeon they are seeing got the worst grades of anyone in the medical school (apparently all the good smart doctors went to where thier skills would be valued with a better salary)

2. USA model of new innovations in the best doctors and new pharmaceutical breakthroughs (you know all the lifesaving drugs you take for granted). Unfortunatly you end up paying more for having the best doctor and subsidizing the PHARMACEUTICALS for all the R&D they spent on the 500 loser drugs they lost money on.

Nitwit

FLIP FLOPPER KING MCCAIN
* McCain _Kennedy was for AMNESTY BEFORE HE WAS against it before he was FOR IT

*McCain supported the Law of the Sea Treaty that Ronald Reagan defeated. NOW says "probably vote against it."

*McCain, who has been a supporter and even a co-sponsor of the DREAM Act, Now claims would oppose it

* McCain said before the war in Iraq, "We will win this conflict. We will win it easily." Four years later, McCain said he knew all along that the war in Iraq war was "probably going to be long and hard and tough."

* McCain went from saying he would not support repeal of [tag]Roe v. Wade[/tag] to saying the exact opposite.

* McCain went from saying gay marriage should be allowed, to saying gay marriage shouldn?t be allowed.

* McCain used to oppose Bush?s [tag]tax cuts[/tag] for the very wealthy, but he reversed now or who knows tomorrow:

* McCain supported a major campaign-finance reform measure that bore his name. In June, he abandoned his own legislation.

* McCain used to think that Grover Norquist was a crook and a corrupt shill for dictators. Then McCain got serious about running for president and began to reconcile with Norquist.

* McCain took a firm line in opposition to torture, and then caved to White House demands.

* McCain opposed a holiday to honor Martin Luther King, Jr., before he supported it. [corrected]

* McCain was against presidential candidates campaigning at Bob Jones University before he was for it.

* McCain was anti-ethanol. Now he?s pro-ethanol.

* McCain was both for and against state promotion of the Confederate flag.

* McCain is now both open and closed to redeployment in Iraq.

* And McCain claims to have "bitterly disagreed" with a "failed strategy" in Iraq for more than three years, despite having argued the need to "stay the course" just one year ago.



seeker of ?
why don't you ask all the desperate CANADIANS waiting in line to get surgery in thier own country how much of a threat CORPORATISM is to them?

might surprise you when they get down on thier knees and thank god thier is a country where the DRUGS they depend on for life were developed and the hospitals have adequate facilities with the best doctors and surgeons to use them.


seeker of ?
It's OK to take the CANADIAN option and recognize you want to support crappie DOCTORS, HOSPITALS, and depending on your neighbor to the south to develop all the new drugs that will eventually save your life.

And then to demand they give you these drugs for cheap (realizing YOU could never develop them).

Sad little seeker aren't you.

seeker of ?
Hey seeker,,, i've got it....
Lets sock it to the pharmaceuticals so that they never make another profit...
Then they can all go out of business and we can all swallow lots of ASPIRIN when we come down with the FLU, AIDS, CANCER, ETC.....

I'm feelin pretty healthy, how about you?

seeker of ?
Next seeker,,, we definitly need to regulate those doctors and surgeons to canadian levels....
Who do they think they are,,,, going thru 10-15 years of schooling to become the best of the best and THEN having the GALL to come to AMERICA and get paid more than other SOCIALIST crapholes (sorry canada).

Darn strait,,,, get rid of that profit thing and lets shove any BUM off the street into a doctors role.

Yippeee I AAAYYYYYY (picture Howard Deans scream here)

The corporate threat
Somebody please explain to me why corporations are such a grave threat to my liberty, health and welfare? Absent government collusion in the corporations' schemes to plunder taxpayers, regulate markets, and deny competitors and consumers a level playing field, corporations would be entirely beholden to me - a worker, consumer and investor. To my ears, then, it's the very pinnacle of hypocrisy for a politician who sells, licenses or leases his political power to corporations in return for campaign cash to decry the very power of corporations he has provided them.

Absent the collusion of government, corporations pose absolutely no threat to my liberty, health and welfare unless I voluntarily work for them, purchase their products, their equities, or their debt. This means that all the power over corporations would be in my hands, where it belongs.

All you anti-corporation populists, please explain to me why you can't see something this fundamental and simple?

Mccain is bad for our country
I honestly dont think he would even carry his own state these days with how he has basically told us 70 percent of citizens were idiots who hate mexicans because we insist that our lands and country stop being invaded by illegals. In the last debate I think i heard him say he knows the issue because he is from a border state? I voted for bush thinking finally a border state governor would get the issue we americans are dealing with Boy was I wrong ! well same goes for mccain. That amnesty bill would have basically allowed or changed our country to the tune of roughly 60 million mexicans within 20 years time. Amazing that guy has the balls to say he understands the issue and that he " learned" he is full of crap. The last version actually allowed the gangsters ms 13 types to actually stay as well under his system. You mccain supporters need to realize he is a democrat plain and simple. The notion he is now on this straight talk BS is laughable.

I dont think mccain will even get relected as a senator. People from his state are sick of the death from illegals. having to pay for the schooling and medical needs of people who dont belong here.

He is a one trick pony in regards to national security. Its funny when he stresses the concern of protecting and guarding the borders of iraq yet he could give a flying crap about our own borders !

Peter O
North Idaho
Romney for president and no im not a mormon just want someone who has experince besides being a double talking politicians

Fact Checking the RINO Pundit
While I think that McShame is truly a Democrat(R), the answer to the drug issue is NOT that we would be importing the Canadian price controls. The answer is “Wrong question Will, we don’t accept straw men arguments and red hearings”.

The problem we have with the price of drugs is three-fold. First and foremost about ten or 15 years ago the drug lobbies got a bill through congress that extended the time that they could maintain a monopoly on a drug through their patents. It also loosened the rules for allowing a drug company to make minor changes in a drugs composition and call it a new drug and start the patent time clock over. Basically this was a pure give-away to the drug companies. The next price pusher is the advent of lawyers and the ease at which they can get a civil suit started and elevate it to class action. This literally screams for tort reform but the odds are likely that it will never happen. The last item that pushes prices up in a major way is government buying for Medicaid/Medicare. Any action by the government to pay subsidized costs always drives the prices up.

What needs to happen is first, restore the patent laws to what they were originally. This will not happen due to the lobbyists paying off the critters.

The next thing that needs to happen is massive tort reform. This will never happen because the lawyer guild has the entire Democrat Party in their back pocket. This is one of the two bugs I have with Fred. He is against major tort reform based on the principles of Federalism. In other words, he says it is a State issue. I view that as somewhat similar to Rudy’s stance on gun control. In this case, if we are going to have the feds meddling in everything else via interstate commerce, then they certainly can meddle in tort reform for the same reason. Either get rid of ALL the interstate commerce meddling or get us some worthwhile meddling.

cont....

pt 2
The third thing is for the feds to get out of Medicare/Medicaid business. LOL, that has become like SS, another rail of politics that can not be touched. It will never happen.

So George, although McShame is a detestable RINO better suited in the Democrat Party, you are not much better.

Who is right?
McCain and Romney Disagree About Drug Companies

WATCH VIDEO

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/mccain-and-romney- disagree-about-drug-companies


From the article:
"McCain is, however, an unlikely conciliator because he is quick to denigrate the motives, and hence the characters, of those who oppose him."

Same trait as all prima-donnas and weak minded leaders everywhere. If I am correct HalD is a McCainiac when not pushing the Dumb-O-Crap party...oh, wait...


Remeber the Keating 5!!
Senator John "Keating 5" McCain accuses others of corruption. That's rich.

We revisit this drug controversy...
...every couple of years and the arguments do,in fact,apply.When this same controversy was in the headlines about ten years ago,I made the suggestion that the only thing the government should do is pass a law that says that Pharmacutical firms can only charge Americans what the LOWEST price they are charging other countries.

Now, other country's have socialized medicine.Let the other countrys have their governments make up the difference to our drug companys so that everyone pays for the research and development expenses.If a foreign government doesn't want to pay,they don't get the drug.Their own people will suffer and will probably not stand for that.But the expenses of developing a new drug should be born by all.

THE REAL JOHN McCAIN

Professional, political parisites listen to LOBBYISTS who eventually get them into trouble! Have you forgotten the Lincoln Savings and Loan scandal of Arizona? Senator John McCain was one of the ringleaders of the "KEATING FIVE" that cost the American taxpayers $160 BILLION dollars. Keating was convicted of more than70 criminal violations. What will McCain do as POTUS? McCain accomplishments: McCain/Feingold(D)(FreeSpeech), McCain/Kennedy(D)(Amnesty Bill), McCain/Lieberman(I/D)(Energy Tax), Gang of 14(7D's/7R's)(Filibusters), Voted against Bush tax bill), against MLK Jr. holiday and anything else Republican if he did sponsor or write the bill. Be afraid! Be very afraid!

McShame Also Pushing
George Will is on the member list of the CFR. McCain currently also pushing the Law of Sea Treaty that would give some UN type "government" control over our boundry waters. That could end up with a UN "navy" patrolling our seas. Nice! I'm convinced that McCain plays maverick at times so he can get face time with cameras. If you think Jorge Bush is screwing up so much think about McShame as prez. I believe that the CFR is for open borders and free trade. Re-importing is not part of its current agenda.

Unfortunately,
Any Republican likely to be reading George Will is already well opposed to McCain.

BTW, corporations do much more to make life better for everyone than the government ever even thought of doing.

John McCain
He is a Moderate to say the least! His Kennedy-MCCain Amnesty Bill spoke volumes to me! His campaign manager even tried to tell him he was making a big mistake with the GOP Base what did MCCain do ignored his campaign manager and fired him. Do we really want a President that is that stupid? Well guess so cause we have Bush who also ignores his base on Globalization, Immigration, Gun Control, etc etc. Im sick of the status quo I WANT CHANGE IN THE GOP AND IM READY TO VOTE FOR IT.

If drug company profits are too high
why don't you protesters do the logical thing....buy their stock? You could easily cover your prescription costs with your share of those obcene profits. Better yet, why don't we insist that the Social Security (Medicare) invest in those same companies? Wouldn't that just solve the whole problem?

Perhaps you SEEKERS OF TRUTH can chew on that for a while.


Canadian medicine
At the risk of suffering the vitriol of people who are so committed to conservative ideology they see no room for even a little compromise (i.e. actually getting something accomplished), I just have to weigh in on the whole meds thing.

Seeker raised a legitimate question and was soundly beaten by a bunch of ideology with very little relation to facts. Importing meds from Canada has nothing to do with the "health care system" of Canada. I have lived near Mexico most of my life. We have a child who has chronic asthma. Albuterol on this side of the border costs around $50; good insurance brings it down to $10-15 (but of course, we all know that this added cost just comes out elsewhere). In Mexico, and I assume Canada, I can get 3X the amount for around $10. I know how to read labels (and Spanish...I'll have to get the Pimsler tapes for Canadian..."Eh?"). Here's the kicker: it's manufactured in the exact same plant as the more expensive USA purchased stuff. Now, before you flip out, just remember one key conservative principle (cf. Bastiat, Sowell, etc.): "free trade." Are we so committed to "conservative principles" that we allow ourselves to be screwed by conservatives who really aren't applying conservative principles? The rules that prevent reimportation (note: REimportation...it's stuff that is manufactured HERE!) is "protectionism" - a very UN-conservative position (unless you're Pat Buchanan).

Do I like everything McCain stands for? No. However, if you actually want to WIN an election, it's a good idea to consider somebody that people besides simply the core of conservatism would support. Say McCain gets the nomination (I'd say at this point he has about a 25% chance), do you think people like George Will (and the faithful readers at Townhall.com) are going to stay home or worse, vote for Hilary?

Last point: Read Newt's new book.

acceptreality
In most cases I would agree with you on the profit issue. Companies deserve every ounce of profit they can earn and it isn’t up to the government to tell them how much profit is acceptable. However, in this case the drug companies are getting profit due to government action with the lenient patent laws that were put in place a few years ago. The government is in effect stifling the free market and encouraging monopolies.

Put the laws back like they were before the change and let the drug companies have all the profit they can earn.

Vic, I humbly disagree
There is absolutely no reason why anyone cannot purchase generic equivalents of out-of-patent drugs, particularly if the reformulated version has only minor changes. In fact there are powerful economic reasons otherwise.

And if the reformulated drug is certifiably better, why shouldn't the developer benefit?

What you are really talking about is the purpose and fairness of patent laws. That is an entirely different discussion.

acceptreality
The pointr is you can NOT purchase generic drugs until the patent expires. The law was changed to make the patents last much longer and in a lot of cases restart the clock due to minor changes.

I know this because I did some research when I tried to find a generic for one of the drugs I'm taking and found that the generic could not be sold in the U.S. because of patent laws and an ongoing civil suit.

Surely you can't be opposed to putting the laws back to where they were previously?

We need more price controls!!!
After all, FDR and Jimmy Carter proved they work GREAT!! That is, they work great if your intention is to wreck the economy!

Vic
By your logic, if reducing the patent duration is good, why not remove them completely? Who says they were optimal before?

RE: Vic
Without patents, there wouldn't BE any drugs.

Dopes who think that patents on drugs either need to be eliminated or shortened are ignorant morons who are advocating that people ought to be dying of easily curable diseases.

The most recent estimate of how much it costs to develop a new drug is just shy of $1 BILLION. A BILLION dollars. It is because of this cost that drug companies don't even try to get approval for 9 out of 10 substances, and 8 out of 10 substances that DO gain approval never make their development costs back.

You think cutting edge cancer treating drugs, or drugs to treat fatal diseases like MS are expensive, and that the drug companies are raking in huge profits from them? Guess what: they're not. The only drugs that make back their money are drugs like OTC pain relievers and Viagra.

Canadian price controls have DIRECTLY led to rationing in that nation, and denial of various other cutting edge drugs.

The United States is the world's leading producer of pharmeceuticals, and the reason is that the US is the only nation on Earth that allows drug companies to pay for the research and development costs of those drugs. Patents are a part of that means by which they can pay for those R&D costs.

Economic idiots
Rev,

You are just plain ignorant about economics and have no understanding how reimporting prices controls where everyone pays the same price will actually screw the poor. The reason there are big disparities between what different groups pay for the drug prices is the same reason that airline ticket prices vary. It is a matter of getting customers to pay what they can afford. An airline can fill up the last 5% of its plane tickets with almost no extra cost so they expand their market by selling these tickets really cheap.This makes air travel more accessible to the poor. Drug companies do the same. It doesn't cost much to make more Albuterol that can be sold for $10 in Mexico. The rich pay more than the poor which helps finance further research! If drug companies can't charge more from those who can pay it, the poor will have less access to life saving drugs. Of course, why don't we just tax the rich so the government can fund the research. We can trust the government to take care of our needs more than a drug company who loses our business if their product fails. This is the very same government that profits from our death with estate taxes.

Well said Beowulfe
but you forgot two more important costs:

-litigation costs to protect patents and, more important,
-the uncalcuable cost of legal action should an approved drug subsequently be found unsafe (Thalidamide, Vioxx, Zetia, Vytorin.

And what of the opportunity costs of having to wait a decade or more for POSSIBLE approval?

Only a fool thinks the drug companies
are profiteering because they only see what they want to see, the successful drugs. For them, I strongly suggest they simply become an investor in Pharmaceuticals and let the chips roll in!

McInsane
BrianR... I too destest that man. Yes, I remember he was one of the Keating Five. McInsane's ego is far larger than Billary's, Jean Francois' or Fat Ted's. I will not vote for McInsane, he is not even a RINO, he is a Bloomberg with a TRUE war hero's record.

Thumper
Thank you for your measured, erudite, and insightful comments. I would venture to guess that I am much more informed on the issue, both via formal education and personal experience than you are. But nevertheless, I will accept your criticism. That said, I believe you have totally missed the point.

Yes, I get the whole accountability of the free market argument...in fact, I whole-heartedly agree with it. Here's the problem: the drug market in the U.S. is not a free market. Part of the corruption of the system is because of the price controls, not from the government, but from the insurance companies. "...customers to pay what they can afford" is a very free-market/conservative idea. But that is not what we have in the U.S., which is why there are busloads of senior citizens going to Canada and Mexico...to pay what they can afford.

Again, here is the point: why should I pay more for the exact same drugs if I can get it cheaper? Isn't that free-market economics...or am I not free? Am I asking the government to somehow intervene? Hell no! (Note my handle to appreciate my depth of response here...) I would however like the government to get out of the way.

Deception
I respect the right of anyone in the Republican media to support McCain openly. What is frustrating is that their support for McCain is almost always deceptive. They write puff stories about how McCain the martyr is suffering from negative attacks (even though all candidates get the same negative attacks). They make up weird, double standard momentum rules which say that Romney's wins don't matter, but each and every McCain win could build some sort of irresistable momentum which will quickly give McCain the nomination. Every state is a must-win for Romney, they say, but McCain can skip any state he wants, and that state becomes meaningless. They cover up McCain's record, just giving favorable stories about his war record or supposed good character.

See McCain This Way
McCain is a decent guy but unfortunately he is dumb as a brick. In his military career he is a reverse ace--he lost 5 airplanes. Three he crashed and 2 were lost either to enemy or friendly fire. He believes what sounds good when he hears it, hence his partnering with Democrats to appear bi-partisan. McCain has no idea what the Constitution means; he probably has read some of it but he understands none of it. McCain would have completely failed flight school if his Admiral father had not interceded to have him recycled for a second try. McCain's history is replete with "dumb things done" and yet he will defend all his actions, not with reason, but superficial bluster. McCain's war story is a litany of suffering and he spent 5 and 1/2 years enduring it, for that he has my respect and undying gratitude, unfortunately, that will not earn him my vote for POTUS.

Re: It's the cost of labor, stupid!
"It is a world gone mad far right wing conservatives are about to get a first..

"The first deep wide recession named after one of them.

"'The Arbusto Recession.'"

As opposed to the "Jimmy Carter Recession" (cured by Ronald Reagan supplyside economics), and the "Clinton Recession" (cured by Bush supplyside economics).

The Market is reacting to the effect of President Hillary!/Obama/Edwards and the Democrat Controlled Congress on the Economy and taxes on earnings.

The current small, shallow economic downturn should named after the real culprits: "The Pelosi-Reid Recession". After all, the ONLY thing that has changed in our economy is that the Democrat controlled Congress can now brag increasing the "minimum wage" and thus the cost of labor by 35%. Talk about being mad!

The real "mad" politicians are those who believe that in the market you can increase the price of something by 35% without effecting its demand. Apparently there are also "mad man" on this thread who believe the same.

Re:Classless Rearends of the World Unite
"I hope all those people are buried in watertight coffins becuase I wouldnt mind 'squriting' on their grave."

Spoken like the true classless rearend you obviously are!

A quick lesson...
... in price discrimination from an economics professor.

Prescription drugs are, on average, around 35% cheaper in Canada than they are in the U.S. Have you stopped to ask why? Try looking at the demographics of the two countries.

The U.S. has 9 times as many people as Canada does. If the drug industry were perfectly competitive, the market size wouldn't matter -- the price would be driven to the lowest possible price for consumers. But in a monopolistic market, price depends on the size of demand: more people = higher prices.

The average income in the U.S. is also 18.5% less than average income in Canada. That also explains some of this.

So what happens if we allow reimportation of drugs from Canada on a massive scale? We take two markets and essentially make them one. What do you think will happen? Do you think that the drug companies will lower the prices for Americans (which make up 90% of this new market) and give us all a break? Or do you think they'll just raise the prices for Canadians to keep us from going there? As Dr. Williams would say, if you answered the latter, move to the head of the class.

Reimportation of drugs from Canada is not a means of solving any problems in health care costs. All it will do is raise prices of drugs in Canada and make them dislike us more than they already do. Here's a little tidbit for you: Canadians don't want us shopping for our drugs there any more than the drug companies do. Canada has already passed a law limiting the quantity of drugs a foreigner can purchase from Canada.

Another lesson
This same thing came up with Al Gore lamented that his mom paid 5 times as much for the same arthritis medication that she gave to her dog. Taking his argument to its logical conclusion, Al Gore believes that all animals should pay the same price for arthritis medication. Ok, Al, what's going to happen? Let's look at the stats. There are 6 times as many people as there are dogs in the U.S. and people feel their pain a lot more directly than they feel their dogs. If arthritis drug companies had to charge the same price, they're not going to give Al's mom the discounted dog price -- they're going to raise the price for the dogs. Then many people will have to stop getting arthritis medication for their dogs, and many of them would probably be put down. So if Al Gore had his way, thousands of dogs every year would die.

When you make arguments about how something is not fair and should be fixed, think a second about what profit-maximizing companies and smart consumers will end up doing in response to it. You just may find that the "law of unintended consequences" holds true, and you end up with an even worse situation than the one you were trying to fix.

Vietnam Vets Don't Like McCain
I never understood why John McCain, who suffered horribly in a Vietnam POW camp was such good friends with John Kerry who had a picnic in the war compared to McCain. They both united to cut off any further search for American soldiers still in that country.

Does anyone know the truth about McCain's so-called collaboration with the North Vietnamese? I always thought he just broadcast a propaganda message in order to gain medical treatment for his broken arm and leg, but a Vietnam veteran site says he gave the North Vietnamese actionable information on bombing flights.

I supported the Vietnam Veterans Against Kerry but I'm unsure about the validity of this charge against McCain.

Reacting to a Democrat president!
John Action, you are SO RIGHT that the market is TERRIFIED of the potential of a Democratic president.

In December, financial advisors were surveyed by the Brinker Barometer on what their biggest worry is on the economy. While 13% said "a terrorist attack", 15% said "US economic growth", and 15% said "global unrest", the number 1 fear of financial advisors was a "Democrat in the White House" (which got 22% of the vote).

http://www.investmentnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20 080114/REG/461139017/1017

d'oh
I meant to write that income in Canada is 18.5% less than it is in the U.S. In looking up my facts, I wrote it down wrong.

Average Income?
"The average income in the U.S. is also 18.5% less than average income in Canada."

I think you got that backwards.

McCain is a liberal with a nasty temper.
While he panders to the media, his ego doesn't allow him to listen to or respect anyone that dissagrees with him. To get media support for his presidential campaigns, McCain has given us:

McCain-Feingold — the most brazen frontal assault on political speech designed to protect incumbents.

McCain-Kennedy — the most far-reaching amnesty program in American history.

McCain-Lieberman — the most onerous attack on American industry in American history.

McCain-Kennedy-Edwards — the biggest boon to the trial bar since the tobacco settlement.

McCain – Opposition to Tax Cuts -- McCain’s stated opposition to the Bush 2001 and 2003 tax cuts was largely based on socialist, class-warfare rhetoric — tax cuts for the rich, not for the middle class. The public record is full of these statements. Today, he recalls only his insistence on accompanying spending cuts.

McCain - As chairman of the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation -- McCain was consistently hostile to American enterprise, from media and pharmaceutical companies to technology and energy companies.

McCain - Gang of 14 -- prevented approval of judicial nominees.

McCain - ACLU — the unprecedented granting of constitutional rights to foreign terrorists. McCain has repeatedly called for the immediate closing of Guantanamo Bay and the introduction of al-Qaeda terrorists into our own prisons — despite the legal rights they would immediately gain and the burdens of managing such a dangerous population.

Nice piece
I am not a McCain fan but will say each of the candidates can have articles just like this written about them, substituting the names and the issues. Each has major strengths and weaknesses. Dang it.

Settle down beavis (I mean scooter)
SEEKER OF TRUTH asked a sincere question: why is it wrong to reimport drugs from Canada?
Scooter seems to think we're importing canadian drugs, so he/she misses the whole point (I might have misread--I tend to scan over some posts that are to rantified, so I apologize if I didn't get scooter's point)

What we'd ACTUALLY be doing is importing drugs from Canada that they bought from the US, but paid a lower price for (due to their price controls, and a business decision on the part of the Pharmas to sell to them at that cost).
It's no secret that we pay a higher price for the same drugs from our our Pharmas than some of the rest of the world does. Some might argue that's why we HAVE those drugs in the first place: because we paid the price to develop them.
It's really not sustainable to have Canada act as a discount house for our drugs. Do you think it would last if it were sanctioned. I'm not sure how it would be sanctioned anyway. The Pharmas will supply Canada with enough for their needs at that price, but when they start ordering extra to sell back to Americans, the price is likely to change. That's what's wrong with the idea.

Re: And if McNasty becomes POTUS
This could only happen if McCain switches parties and runs as Edwards' runningmate (as he planmned to do in 2004 with that great Vietnam War Hero whose BuPer's Jacket is still "Classified -Top Secret" - John Kerry-Heinz) and the "Prell Girl" dies in office during a pantic attack over manmade "Globsal Warming" - as this member of the "Keating Five" and the "Gang of 14" will never win the GOP Presidential nomination.

The best thing about McCain's Quixotic run for the GOP nomination is that maybe the Republicans of Arizona will wakeup and fill the "Goldwater US Senate Seat" with a REAL "far right wing conservative" Republican like Mariposa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio.

acceptreality/beowulfe
Pardon me I though I was dealing with logical people. I said NOTHING about eliminating patent rights. I said put them back where they were originally before they backdoored a sweetheart deal.

McCain
As a life-long Republican, I remain faithful to the Party, win or lose. Should my preferred candidate, Mitt Romney, lose the nomination to John McCain or Rudy Guliani, we must support the victor against the Evil Empire's candidate. Accordingly, we as Republicans should be objective in critiquing various GOP candidates, but carefully avoid negative attacks which may aid Democrats in the general election. Any one of our GOP candidates is superior to any particular Democrat.

Can any Republican honestly vote for Clinton, Obama or Edwards over any Republican candidate?

McCain -Just say NO!
Never would I vote for McCain for a multitude of reasons...BUT as far as the pharmaceutical companies...I think George Will is remembering the companies of old....They have changed considerably since corporate takeovers and the recent data proves they spend far more on advertising than on research.......The FDA partly responsible and part of the same problem in allowing unchecked approval of drugs that do NOT meet earlier standards.VIOXX, Phen,PHEN, Zyprexa..et al. Anyone see the recent story about anti depressants and how they are proven ineffective in numerous studies and yet nothing published before on this?? The influx of poisons and tainted toys from China and The importation of Big Pharmas manufacturing from China and India are yet another example of what a phony argument this is......If you don't believe me about big Pharm...turn on your TV..I bet you will see a Cialis commercial within five minutes......Pretty soon they will be touting Cialis as another way to prop up the economy.

McCains promise of Spending cuts HA!
How does one cut spending when one also imports 20-30 million impoverished Illegals? Obviously CA has been unable to make any cuts as they take in more and more freeloaders.........That's one area where McCains argument falls as flat as his poll numbers with conservatives. The only ones getting their services cut are tax paying Americans who are watching as their schools,roads,hospitals and government fall into disrepair while they cater to non english speaking students who DO NOT BELONG HERE!The man is a traitor to this country -no two ways about it!

Vic
Again, you don't have the SLIGHTEST clue about what you are talking about. If they were "put back", the patent would have expired even before most drugs have been brought to market because it takes YEARS of research and even MORE years to gain FDA approval. That, kiddo, is why the patents were extended to begin with.

If they weren't extended, you'd have slimey drug companies just sitting back while some other company spends the nearly $1 billion on research, then as soon as a drug is approved, WHAMO, it's already on the market as a "generic" for 1/1000th the price.

This, of course, would mean NOBODY would ever even THINK about doing any new R&D because by the time they were able to come to market, there'd be a dozen generics that, because the producing companies never had to pay the extreme costs for R&D and approval, would undercut their price. While it might be an acceptable cost in your mind that never again with any new drugs or treatments come out, RATIONAL people aren't willing to pay that price.

No Democrats, including McCain
"Can any Republican honestly vote for Clinton, Obama or Edwards over any Republican candidate?"

I would vote third party rather than vote for John McCain, the man the Democrats wanted as Vice President in the last presidential campaign. He is a Democrat in Republican clothing.

Would you vote for Hillary if she became a Republican?

McCains promise of Spending cuts HA!
How does one cut spending when one also imports 20-30 million impoverished Illegals? Obviously CA has been unable to make any cuts as they take in more and more freeloaders.........That's one area where McCains argument falls as flat as his poll numbers with conservatives. The only ones getting their services cut are tax paying Americans who are watching as their schools,roads,hospitals and government fall into disrepair while they cater to non english speaking students who DO NOT BELONG HERE!The man is a traitor to this country -no two ways about it!

Re: Tampa Dave
Well said. We need to focus on the greater enemy here, and that is getting a win against the Democrat come next November. While I still believe that McCain is the most electable and conservative enough, and think that Mitt Romney is a huge phony, I will be voting for whoever gets the nomination.

Re: Squirrels for McCain
"YOu get tired of nuts who say "Keating five" (sorry BrianR) when McCain himself has apologized for that to death and more or less gets what he did wrong...as do most people."

For once you are right - McCain's support and defense of the Savings and Loan swindler (Lincoln Savings and Loan), Charles Keating, merely further demonstrates unlimited McCain's bi-partisanship. After all, every one of his partners in the click to obstruct justice in this public fraud case was a Democrat - Alan Cranston (D-CA); Dennis DeConcini (D-AZ); John Glenn (D-OH); and Don Riegle (D-MI).

McCain's criminal pal's conviction record includes:

Securities Fraud convicted of 17 counts 4-Dec-1991

Conspiracy convicted 6-Jan-1993,0

Fraud convicted 6-Jan-1993

Racketeering convicted 6-Jan-1993

Transporting Stolen Property convicted 6-Jan-1993

Wire Fraud pled guilty 6-Apr-1999

Fraud (bankruptcy fraud) pled guilty 6-Apr-1999

Please note that all Keating's convictions, accept the ones for Wire and Bankruptcy Fraud) were BEFORE Bill and Hillary! fired ALL the US Federal Prosecutors in 1993!

Fortunately for Bill and Hillary! they were able to fire or tranfer the Federal Prosecutors and Agents looking into their little S&L scnadal with James and Susan McDougal (she should have been "waterboarded" to force her to talk) of Whitewater Development Corporation and Madison Guaranty Savings and Loan before the truth got out.

James B. McDougal died in prison while in solitary confinement in 1998 at the time of the Clinton Impeachment Trial before he could testify.


Right
Professor, thank you for your insight. I understand the economic workings, but I do appreciate your reasoned explanation. Yes, simply allowing reimportation would likely result in economically screwing up Canada's already screwed up system.

btw, the Mexicans love it when we come and shop there. Here's where I am frustrated: it's not the specific issue of reimportation, but it is the bigger issue of the corrupted system (I realize that sounds rather leftist...something I am far from, but hear me out). We do in fact have price controls...sort of - they are established by the insurance companies. Here's a wild idea: instead of developing some sort of scheme wherein everyone gets insured (ala Mitt or Hilary), why not allow a free market of medical care and pharmaceuticals? In my opinion, the insurance companies have become a pseudo-gov't agency (in practice, not reality) where they have usurped the power to set prices. Part of this is somewhat reasonable from a purely business perspective - an insurance company should be able to set limits on what it will and will not pay for. The problem is, the insurance companies have negotiated price with the pharmaceutical companies instead of simply allowing the free market and demand and supply to establish a competitive and "fair" (by free market standards) price. Instead, what we get is, if you have (good) insurance, you're fine. If not, you're screwed. So what do you do? Go to Mexico where the market is still free (yes, I understand the Mexican system, but believe me, the border towns are a long way from Mexico City).

Re: Squirrels for Hillary!
Jim McDougal was a close friend and business/political of Bill and Hillary! and probably knew them best while they ran Arkansas. Here are a few of his quotes on the First Couple:

"What irritates me is the constant self-comparison to Eleanor Roosevelt. We didn't get Elenore! We got Evita!" 1996 on Hillary Clinton.

"I wouldn't go to the bank on that". 1997: The former business partner of President Clinton when asked after receiving a three-year prison sentence whether he believed the Clintons would be exonerated in the Whitewater scandal as he insisted during his trial.

"I was just tired of lying for the fellow". 1997: On why he changed his story to say that President Clinton was involved in the wrongdoing.

"The institution I'm going to is coeducational, and I think there's an excellent chance I might get to see Hillary there" 1997: McDougal who cooperated in the investigation of the first couple on the eve of beginning his term in the federal penitentiary in Lexington, KY.

"They were like tornadoes moving through people's lives. I was left in their wake, and I had company" 1998 On Bill and Hillary Clinton.

"Since I spent so much of this decade dealing with lawyers and journalists, I like to say that I've improved my associations by joining the criminal class" 1997.

Great article, George Will
Get McCains record out and let people judge for themselves because listening to his "straight talk" will not be helpful.

Wu Wei
Wu Wei writes: Friday, January, 18, 2008 11:06 AM

"I would vote third party rather than vote for John McCain, the man the Democrats wanted as Vice President in the last presidential campaign. He is a Democrat in Republican clothing. Would you vote for Hillary if she became a Republican?"

Yes, I would vote for Hillary Clinton if she were the GOP nominee. Be realistic, however. If she survived our nominating process, imagine the Marxist candidate the opposition would put forth! Hillary would, in that instance, likely appear conservative and the preferable candidate between the two parties. In a real world scenario, Hillary Clinton would get no further than Dennis Kucinich in the run for the POTUS nomination.




beowulfe
Again I know what I'm talking about and you don't. The patent clock does not start until the FDA gives approval for the drug. That is the way it is now and the way it was before. They just get longer now, along with new patents for minor changes.

bigkam
bigkam writes: Friday, January, 18, 2008 11:08 AM
Re: Tampa Dave
Well said. We need to focus on the greater enemy here, and that is getting a win against the Democrat come next November. While I still believe that McCain is the most electable and conservative enough, and think that Mitt Romney is a huge phony, I will be voting for whoever gets the nomination.

Republicans must not allow the Democrats the opportunity to control the executive and legislative branches of the federal government simultaneously. Can you imagine the state of America thereafter? Additionally, the GOP must preserve and increase, if possible, the conservative numbers in the Supreme Court. A Democratic victory would be disastrous for all Republicans and America.

Reacting to a Democrat(ic) President
And whose interests do you think those financial advisors are interested in?

And who are those financial advisors speaking for?

And who designated those financial advisors to speak for any one?

And who determined, and how was it determined, that those financial advisors are smarter than everyone else?

And if they are so smart why don't they run for president themselves?

I bet they play a mean game of balls and strikes while watching a game on TV.

And shouldn't we fire the idiot who thinks that getting the financial advisors opinions provides us with any meaningful information?

I'm with you, Wu Wei
I won't vote for McCain, even if the Dems nominate Satan himself.

Who needs a megalomaniacal loose cannon in the White House? Hasn't the last 6 years been bad enough?

McCain doesn't want to be President, he wants to be coronated Emperor. In some ways, he's more dangerous that the Dems.

Vic, you prove you're clueless
"Again I know what I'm talking about and you don't. The patent clock does not start until the FDA gives approval for the drug."

Absolutely, completely, and totally WRONG. the patent clock, as you call it, starts once the patent has been issued, which in the drug industry occurs shortly after a substance is discovered, YEARS before it ever gains approval.

THAT was the problem that was solved by extending the patents. Get a clue and return when you know even the TINIEST BIT about what you are talking about.

Re: The real question
"What needs to happen is first, restore the patent laws to what they were originally. This will not happen due to the lobbyists paying off the critters."

As no American Drug Company seems to enjoying triple digit earnings (except some street thugs selling illicit drugs) do you actually believe that it would be better for US consumers of medicine to have a SHORTEN amortization period on the extremely high cost of developing and testing patent drugs? Do you have any idea what that would do to the cost of medicines in the US? The best thing that could happen to improve the drug cost in our country would be for these development costs to be amortized over longer periods (not shorter) and equally over MORE COUNTRIES.

RE: Proud Liberal
So instead of listening to experts on the economy about what are the biggest threats to the economy, we should listen to dimwits like you? Uh huh. Gotcha.

RINO???
It appears that all of your candidates are RINOs except for the one the writer supports. If I were to vote for a Retardican, which I won't, it would be for McCain. Of all your prospects, he is the only one who put the welfare of his country above his own. He not only talked the talk, he walked the walk.

My main question is about drugs. As I understand it, Canadians get a free ride on innovation because we pay a higher price here and that higher price supports R&D for future drugs. We pay a higher price than Mexicans...Higher than South Americans...Higher than Africans...Higher than Indians...Higher than Chinese...and obviously higher than Europeans with their national health care.

Is there anyone who pays the same price for drugs as we do, or are we just subsidizing the rest of the world?

Re: Netroots for McCain
"Some live and other dies Long LIve The Republic"

Like McCain, you haven't the foggiest idea about what the "Republic" the Framers gave really is.

This contrasts dramatically with the two GOP Presidential candidates remaining that TRULY understand what our Republic was and should be again - Fred Thompson and Alan Keyes!

How shocking.
Bleeding Heart Liberal says "If I were to vote for a Retardican, which I won't, it would be for McCain."

Need we any more reason NOT to vote for McCain then he's received the endorsement of the kooky commie crowd?

Financial Advisors II
Repeat after me: "Conservatives are not the party of Special Interests."

And isn't the conservatives' hearty condemnation of Huckabe's "populism" an admission that they are the party of special interests?

Unfit for duty
"Who needs a megalomaniacal loose cannon in the White House?"

That's another problem with McCain, that he's a psycho who can't be trusted with the nuclear weapons.

That's also why he can't get along with anyone in Congress, which is why he could never lead this country.

He's also the phoniest politician in Washington, and rides around in the Straight Talk Express.

This is also possible because the media loves McCain so much, and has shielded him. We never hear about any of these things, because the media wants him to win so bad. It would be dangerous to vote for the only candidate who hasn't been screened.

Remember that story about a McCain scandal which was leaked from the New York Times to Drudge? Looks like the MSM quietly buried it. We won't even get to hear the facts, both sides of the story before election day. Just like they covered up Clinton's rape until after the impeachment trial was done. In this case it may have been covered up because McCain threatened so sue. That shouldn't be surprising since he has always fought the first amendment.

Beowulfe
I hope your financial advisor was smart enough to get you heavily into derivatives backed by sub-prime mortgages.

Vic, I understand your frustration
and it is easy to for all of us to lose patience with each other. Beowulfe is 100% correct about the realities of the Pharm industry. If you doubt that, apply simple logic; Would you enter into a business with so many costs, perils and competition if the payout stream for success was not insured? Say nothing of the political opportunist looking for ways to demonize you and steal the rewards of your effort.

But, you do not have to go through that mental exercise. Just go out and purchase Pharm stocks. Do it today because the price will fly once this secret gets out.

Re: Liberals for McCain
"If I were to vote for a Retardican, which I won't, it would be for McCain."

Thus proving "beyond even a reasonable doubt" the correctness of George Will's astute commentary in question! Thank you for your honest contribution to our discussion, even if you only back losers!

WuWei, John Acton (& BHL)
Exactly, Wu, the stories about his explosive temper, mistreatment of his aides, cavalier attitude and contempt for those who don't agree with him.... all suppressed.

The MSM would LOVE McCain to be the GOP nominee; it's win-win for them. He's easily defeated by the Dem candidate, and even if he wins, he's on THEIR liberal side on a bunch of key issues.


John Acton, well said! I was going to make the same point. BHL's statement is the actual proof positive that McCain's a RINO; even the LIBS will vote for him.


Harder after SC
It gets much harder for McCain after SC. He won NH, and MI and ran hard in SC during 2000. That has helped him in 2008 in those states. All 3 are open primaries where Rudy has vacated to help McCain.

The road ahead has Rudy in the hunt taking 1/2 of McCain's vote. Most of the next primaries are closed primaries where McCain's main support of Independents and Dems can not cross over to help him.

If Romney wins NV (McCain's back yard) that helps Romney in CA and the rest of the West.

If McCain wins SC the alternative media will go ballistic to try and stop him in FL.

Easy answer
Easy answer 'Bleeding Heart Liberal'

Move to Canada, Mexico, Africa or wherever. Don't let the door hit you in the behind.

McCain voted against drilling in ANWR
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out with the rising costs of fuel we should have been drilling in the Alaska Natl Wildlife Refuge and other places for years now....yet McCainites and other liberals (most of the Dem party included who have stupidly opposed drilling) think it will harm the environment. It's a feelings-based, loony fringe argument to think that modern oil drilling is going to destroy thousands of acres of the environment I guess they prefer we all remain dependant on foreign oil. This way of thought needs to be exposed, and we know the MSM is not going to expose it. It's this McCain-Leftist-Enviro-whacko triumvirate that has been holding the country back for years now. McCain has been a disaster to the Republican cause. I live in Arizona and was astounded the last time McCain was voted back into office as there was nobody willing to run against him....he only won because there was no alternative on the Repub side.

We should not only be drilling in ANWR but we should be doing everything to suppress the often-violent environmental whacko control over our government. Drilling should commence in every part of our country that has oil to extract. In addition to the traditional oil drilling methods, we have trillions of barrels (more oil than is found in Saudia Arabia) buried in the U.S., much of it in shale in the areas of Colorado, The Dakotas, Wyoming etc. With the rising costs of oil, this shale oil is now feasible cost-wise to extract from the ground. An all-out effort needs to be started to extract that shale oil now...the technology exists to extract it and yet the machinery of govt approvals and in-fighting over rights and so on will cause it to take years before we see any benefits. I'm just waiting for McCain and his leftist friends to put the kabosh on extracting that oil completely.

Re: Special Interest of Class Warfare
"And isn't the conservatives' hearty condemnation of Huckabe's "populism" an admission that they are the party of special interests?"

So, is it your contention that the great so-called "vicitim class" (the object of the Populist Politician's Dying Affection) is NOT a SPECIAL INTEREST?

If so, please explain the rhetoric of one of the World's Greatest Populist politicians: "Workers of the World Unite"!

Populism's ideas work great if your object is economy downturn and increased unemployment, such as the Populist promotion of the Minimum Wage. Or as in the case of the Populist darling "Welfare" which virtually destroyed the Black working class in our country.

However, if you think about it makes perfect sense. Why would a Populist Politician promote policies that would improve the economy and thereby the lot of their "special interest" constituency - those who consider themselves to be "victims"?

I just don't get...
why Repubs support McCain. This guy is no conservative. He's just an egomaniac who supports gun control, amnesty, and 100 year wars. McCain is a war hero for sure, but that's all he brings to the table. Beyond that, he's just a RINO with no principles.

If McCain is nominated, this principled conservative will sit at home on Election Day. If that means we get Prez Hillary or Obama, so be it.

That Big Tent's getting pretty small and cozy for the once-principled GOP. After 8 years of reckless spending and now the prospect of nominating a liberal RINO, I've had it with this sell-out party.

Excellent article, Mr. Will, as usual.

McCain opposed drilling in ANWR
Let us not forget that McCain either voted present or no, on drilling in ANWAR, I can't remember which. But either way, he no doubt was working behind the scenes with his Leftist friends to ensure we remain almost completely dependant on foreign oil. The Left always tries to make up these fantasies that Bush and Republicans are workign for the oil industry, but consistently it is the Democrats that oppose helping the citizens by increasing our own US drilling. That needs to be exposed and the Left needs to be held to account. People like McCain are certainly not going to hold anyone on the Left to account. When McCain gets worked up about something, it's usually to take a swipe at someone on the right, not the left. The guy is a phony and it would be a disaster for the country if he were to be the Repub candidate. I think enough conservatives would stay home and not vote at all, which would mean that Hillary or Obama (lord help us all) would win....that would be the worst scenario our country could face.

Re: Giving a little back to the World
"Is there anyone who pays the same price for drugs as we do, or are we just subsidizing the rest of the world?"

Nope! Yep! So doesn't this fact alone prove that American people are much more generous than those folks (who HATE US) that are living in the Socialist Utopias that provide Universal "Free" Healthcare. It is only FREE because Americans willing to pay for it!

McCain's not electable
"He's easily defeated by the Dem candidate"

That's a key point, which might not be obvious at first. McCain has decent numbers against the Democratic contenders now, but that's only because the media has covered up for him nearly his whole life.

If McCain actually won the nomination, then things would change. For the first time in his career, the media would turn on him. With all the stories which have been covered up, they would peel him like a boiled peanut. The libs might prefer him among Republicans, but in a head to head race with Hillary or Obama, the liberal media would desert him in a minute. McCain would never know what hit him.

Some proof is this can be seen in what the media did in 2000 right around the time McCain's campaign seemed like it could win, but after South Carolina clearly lost. Some liberals had already turned on him, and his temper, etc.

Re: Who backs McCain?
"I just don't get... why Repubs support McCain."

They don't - his support comes from crossover Democrats, Independents and until the general election - the MSM!

More on Drugs
Alright the patent starts on approval. However my original statement is still correct. The patent lasts for 17 years from approval date or 20 years from application date. They now have extensive methods of extending the time beyond those time frames. This is all from the Lamocrat Hatch-Waxman Act. Since that act drug company profits have sky-rocketed and the generics have been delayed. That is really a good thing (ha, ha) since the act was stated to be for the purpose of getting the generics out sooner (but we know how those Democrats lie). The drug companies made lots of profits before Hatch-Waxman and now they make exorbitant profit afterwards.

As I said before , I don’t have a problem with them making the max profit possible ON THEIR OWN. But when they get government assistance from people like Hogface Waxman that results in people like me being gouged I take offence.

Al... "war hero"
I don't consider getting captured by the enemy anything heroic.


Well, right now, looking at Saturday's
primary & all the "Super Tuesday" polls, most pundits give McCain a slight edge over Romney & Huckabee.

Let's say the unimaginable (for some) happens: let's say that McCain clinches the nomination. And on the dem side it will be Obama or Clinton.
What is the "true" conservative going to do? Crawl into a hole for the next 4 years? Bad mouth McCain or Obama/Clinton routinely? Rush Limbaugh & Hugh Hewitt have literally gone WAY out of their way to bloody up McCain's image. Almost like spitting on a corpse. I've never heard this kind of trash talk in a primary (within your own party to a leading candidate). If McCain wins the nom, you'd think the conservative party would be irreperably harmed & fractured in places like Townhall & conservative talk radio. Too much damage has been done verbally to McCain, too much blood under the bridge.

Re: Just who supports McCain?
"I just don't get... why Repubs support McCain."

They don't exist polls show that McCain's support (until the general election) comes from Democrat and Independent crossovers and from the MSM. That is why he only shows up in OPEN Primaries (NH and MI) and not closed Primaries and caucuses like IA.

Thank goodness the libs
understand that the subprime mortgage problem is due to Republicans, and that the coming recession is a far-right conservative recession. FYI,your good buddy John Edwards has been in the middle of the subprime stuff; for every Republican you name, I will find you a Democrat. Besides, many of these loans have been let in the name of racial equality. If your vaunted public education system was worth a spit, people educated under it would know how to evaluate these mortgages. The other side is that there are people who bought these things gambling on future rates, and lost. The result is that individual greed, John Edwards, and the NEA are to blame for the subprime mess, not the Republicans.

Robert, I hope your knees don't get too sore praying for a recession; I don't see it until about 2010. When the tax rates go back up in 2010, the recession results, and people realize how badly you libs have lied about these tax cuts being "for the rich only" there are two chances that you Dems keep Congress beyond 2010. And slim is the high probability.

McCain would be the opposition
"What is the "true" conservative going to do? [if McCain wins]"

I would treat him like any other Democratic President. If he actually did something conservative, which I doubt, I would support it.

There is no reason to think that McCain would even try to act like a Republican; he's not doing that now as a Senator. McCain refuses to rule out selecting Democrat Joe Lieberman as his Vice Presidental running mate! So we could have a unity ticket in which McCain tries to work with the Democratic majority plus enough liberal Republicans to avoid a filibuster, just like he has done as Senator.

It's true that tensions would be very high, at least from McCain's side of it. He threw a temper tantrum after losing last time, and spent 4 years helping the Democrats and spitting in the face of the Republican Party. He is still mouthing off about attack ads from 4 years ago. That shows why, IMO, McCain is unfit for the office.


Will
If you've never heard this kind of "trash talk" before, then you're young.

Reagan was trashed a lot in his early primary runs (he didn't always win). Bush 1 was trashed. Haig was excoriated. Many others.

This kind of schism within the GOP isn't new. This goes all the way back to Rockefeller, at least.




thanks, BrianR...
for the correction. I should have written "McCain served his country honorably and has legitimate military credentials." Regardless, I agree with you that he's not worthy of supporting, even if that means one of those repugnant Dems wins. Maybe 4-8 years of Hillary the Vile as president will force the GOP to return to some semblance of principles rather than the Party of Sell-outs, corruption, and recklessness.

John - you're probably right in your assumption. I can't imagine why any conservative would support McCain.

I'm with you, Al
We had to go through Carter to get Reagan. Four tough years, but a good result.

Sometimes it seems the American peeps need a kick in the head just to wake up and take a look around.

Too much American Idol.


Hey Vic
If you think it's so easy to make money in the drug industry, how 'bout you start your own drug company?

20 years on a patent to make back however much it cost to develop. At $1 billion per drug, that's $50 million per year per substance. You try making $50 million a year on a drug that would only be used by 1000 people per year.

If you shorten patents on drugs, as you are clamoring for, sure you'll get generics faster, but until the patent expires that drug will cost far, far, FAR more (assuming the drug is ever developed to begin with) becuase drug companies will have a shorter period by which to earn the profits from new drugs.

As I pointed out, 9 out of 10 substances that drug companies develop are never brought to market because they know they couldn't pay the excessive costs to get it approved, and only 2 out of 10 of those that are brought to market ever make a profit.

Yeah there are some drug companies that earn pretty big profits. That isn't because they are "gouging", it's because the produce something that is in high demand.

will
There is no "conservative party" and if there was one McCain would not be a member of it.

McCain is liberal on the major issues with the exception of Iraq. Since Ron Paul is the only Republican candidate who opposes continuing the war in Iraq McCain stance doesn't forward his candidacy in my view.

If by some unlucky fluke McCain gets the nod I will either stay at home, vote third party, or right in BrianR’s name. I will not vote for the lesser of the evils again. I have been doing that for too long. Besides that, if we are going to have a liberal in the WH it is better to have a (D) after the name so when the country goes to the hot place in a hand basket we can blame the Lamocrats.

LOL
write/right????

Would the Dems support Leiberman?
I want to make clear that I'm not against McCain just because of his votes. I believe in party unity. But when someone actually works with the other party, and against our party, a certain time comes when I have to say "He's a Democrat".

An example would be Joe Lieberman. Imagine if he were somehow in the lead for the Democratic nomination. Some Democrats would be arguing "We need to support him since he's better than a Republican." But others would be saying "He ran as an independent against the party candidate, and endorsed a Republican, John McCain, for President."

How far can a candidate go before he's not entitled to party unity any more? There has to be a line somewhere.

LOL, Vic
Well, I think my "write-in" vote count's up to 3 or 4 now.

Thanks, man! I won't let you down!


Best thing you've said all day:
"Besides that, if we are going to have a liberal in the WH it is better to have a (D) after the name so when the country goes to the hot place in a hand basket we can blame the Lamocrats."

My only fear is that the damage the Klinton Klux Klan could do in 4 more years might just be irreversable. But if the 'R' would just do the same thing anyhow, at least what little hope we might have would not be all lost by the perpetual Democrat disaster that would follow a McCain regime.

exactly, Brian...
that's what it takes sometimes. And honestly, looking at the current state of things, Carter was, in my opinion, a *much* better president that GWB. So was Bubba Clinton. Seriously. At least those two didn't totally bankrupt this nation.

And yes, our insipid newsfotainment culture is killing us. If people want to watch American Idol, then fine. Just don't vote. Nothing wrong with being ignorant/apathetic and not voting. There's a lot wrong with cancelling out the vote of someone who pays attention.

For example
When McCain started the amnesty bill, he didn't contact the Republicans first. McCain went to Ted Kennedy and said he would be honored to co-sponsor the amnesty bill with him. During the initial negotiations it was the Democratic Party and John McCain. He was the only one allowed in the negotiations.

So they knew they had almost all the Democrats in favor of amnesty, and Bush was ready to sign it. They just had to find enough liberal Republicans to avoid a filibuster.

That's the way McCain usually operates. Most of his legislation is co-sponsored by Ted Kennedy or Joe Lieberman, and gets more Democratic votes than Republicans.

Wu Wei...
the answer is no. The Dems didn't support Lieberman in CT, so why would they support him nation-wide as an independent?

The only party that's likely to support Lieberman would be the Likuds... and even that's in question. The Likuds don't usually favor the Lieberman's heavy socialistic bent on domestic matters, i.e., allowing government to regulate/choke businesses to death... but they might give him a pass on that, considering how badly he wants to nuke Iran.

BrianR - consider it 5 now. I'll write you in if McCain, Romney, Julie-Annie, or the Huckster gets the Repub nod.

Someone slept through the late '70s
"And honestly, looking at the current state of things, Carter was, in my opinion, a *much* better president that GWB."

You must either be too young or too old to remember the Carter years. Unemployment over 7%, double-digit inflation, interest rates approaching 20% on home loans, gas shortages, American hostages....

Yeah, Carter sure beats the crap out of Shrub!

Re: War hero
"I don't consider getting captured by the enemy anything heroic."

Unlike "Hanoi John" Kerry-Heinz, McCain may have been a legimate "war hero" right up until after the war, when he sold out the Missing POW/MIAs.

Re: War hero
March 25, 1999, The Phoenix New Times: Ted Guy and Gordon "Swede" Larson, two former POWs, who were McCain's senior ranking officers (SRO's), at the time McCain says he was tortured in solitary confinement, told the New Times that while they could not guarantee that McCain was not physically harmed, they doubted it.

"Between the two of us, it's our belief, and to the best of our knowledge, that no prisoner was beaten or harmed physically in that camp [known as "The Plantation"]," Larson says. ". . . My only contention with the McCain deal is that while he was at The Plantation, to the best of my knowledge and Ted's knowledge, he was not physically abused in any way. No one was in that camp. It was the camp that people were released from."

In 1993, during one of his many trips back to Hanoi, McCain asked the Vietnamese not to make public the records they hold pertaining to returned U.S. POWs. Apparently, in an effort to keep the Bush from discover more effective torture techniques, sach as those used on him at the time when McCain was being held as "black criminal" terrorist by the People's Republic of Vietnam. A charge he apparently confessed to under their benign treatment:

June 1969 - "Reds Say PW Songbird Is Pilot Son of Admiral. . . Hanoi has aired a broadcast in which the pilot son of United States Commander in the Pacific, Adm. John McCain, purportedly admits to having bombed civilian targets in North Vietnam and praises medical treatment he has received since being taken prisoner." New York Daily News, June 5, 1969

"The English-Language broadcast beamed at South Vietnam was one of a series using American prisoners. It was in response to a plea by Defense Secretary Melvin S. Laird, May 19, that North Vietnam treat prisoners according to the humanitarian standards set forth by the Geneva Convention." The Washington Post

Al, John Acton
Al, thanks for the vote. What you see is what you get!

Man, I've got grassroots momentum going for me now.

I wonder who I'll choose for my VEEP?



John, I stick with my assessment. Getting captured doesn't meet my definition of War Hero. Hell, ANYBODY can get captured.


Re: Democracy by Polls and Pundits
"Well, right now, looking at Saturday's primary & all the "Super Tuesday" polls, most pundits give McCain a slight edge over Romney & Huckabee."

HMMM! Do you mean those same "pundits" and "polls" that had Osama Obama whipping Hillary! butt in New Hampshire by double digits?

beowulfe...
you're correct that I was a bit young during Carter (was 5 when he left office in early 1981). However, I can read history for a comparative perspective.

1. Carter didn't lock us into a multi-TRILLION dollar quagmire based on "faulty intelligence" (aka lies) where we lost 4000 soldiers and any shred of international credibility. And believe me, we haven't begun to see the true costs of this quagmire. Our grandchildren will likely end up paying for it.

2. Carter re-established the dollar as the default international currency. It drove interest rates to 21% and the economy was in the tank, but the dollar rebounded. Under Bush, the dollar is worth less than the Canadian dollar and falling.

So maybe things for John Q. Taxpayer were worse in 1979, but the fallout from Bush will continue long after he's out of office.

By no means am I saying Carter was good. Quite the contrary - I'm using Carter as an example to clearly demonstrate how much of an incredibly disgusting failure GWB is.

Al, I've got to say
Though in many ways I agree -- Bush is a huge disappointment -- Carter was abominable. You have to have been old enough to actually suffer the consequences and remember it.

Interest rates at 20%+, incredible inflation and recession, unemployment up the ying-yang, a foreign policy that made us a joke, and opened the door for the current mess in the ME.

The guy was an unmitigated disaster. IMO, the worst President in our history as a nation.


Democratic slogans
" Carter didn't lock us into a multi-TRILLION dollar quagmire based on "faulty intelligence" (aka lies) "

Quagmire? Bush lied?

Who are you voting for: Hillary, Obama, or Edwards?

I'm sorry, John Acton....
but I don't recognize the name "Osama Obama". Isn't that a little cheap & over-the-top?

You better be glad that you aren't running for public office or I'd have to secretly shower paper circulars on car windows explaining how you fathered 2 half-pakistani babies out of wedlock. That is, after you had a brief sexual liaison with Pervez Musharraf. And gave a $2500 donation to NARAL.

Hey, Wu! Give Al a break!
He already said he's voting for me.

Leave my voter alone!

Heh heh heh


Re: War Hero
"John, I stick with my assessment. Getting captured doesn't meet my definition of War Hero. Hell, ANYBODY can get captured."

I suppose it depends on just how you get to be a POW. Being shot down while attacking an important, heavily defended enemy target is pretty heroic, IMMHO. Heck, just flying such as mission is heroic! However, selling out the MIAs and your fellow POWs is not.

BTW, Navy pilot Duke Cunningham, the 1st US Ace of the War Against Vietnamese Aggression was an American hero despite being shotdown on a mission over the North where he and his RIO killed 3 MIGs (including North Vietnam's top Ace), and who avoided capture only by being lucky enough to have bailedout over the South China Sea was also a hero. Congressman Cunningham sadly also exhibited Sen. McCain's propensity for mixing politics with greed.

I'm supporting...
none of the above. I simply don't like government controlling every aspect of my life.

Wu Wei - will this quamire not cost us in the trillions? Did Saddam have WMDs and was he conspiring with bin Laden (his mortal enemy)? Which candidate are *you* supporting? One of the arm-chair chicken-hawks who never served or the "maverick" RINO who said he wants to stay in Iraq for 100 years?

And btw, Hillary and Edwards both voted to allow Bush to invade. That DQs both of them (along with their socialistic agendas). Obama is a disingenuous no-show on foreign matters, but tries to play up that he's anti-war... which he clearly is not. I support none of them.

BrianR - Carter was a disaster during his term, but the fallout didn't last much beyond 1981. The repercussions from our current Disaster-In-Chief will be felt for generations. Literally, generations. My 4 month old daughter will be among those paying for King George's little excursions abroad.

Re: Real Cheap Shot Artists
"I'm sorry, John Acton.... but I don't recognize the name "Osama Obama". Isn't that a little cheap & over-the-to?"

Not when you compare it to what Hillary! supporter and BET Founder, Robert Johnson, said about Osama Obama.

Anyway, to give you some idea about he is coming from, Osama Obama attends church in a congregation that apparently thinks Black Muslem Extremist, Louis Farrakhan (aka Calypso Louie), was "Man of the Year". The ghost of Malcolm X was not available for comment. Also, his pastor calls our Nation the "United States of Whiter America".

Yep! This is truly the guy who will bring this country together!

Considering his support of al Qaeda in Iraq, and other Islamofascist enemies of our Nation since he started his term in the US Senate, I believe the name fits him well. After all, he has done nothing since coming to Washington except bellyache about how bad the US treats terrorists and how we need to turn Iraq over to al Qaeda and Iran.

BTW, what do think about Hillary's assertion that Democrat racist LBJ did more for Civil Rights than did Martin Luther King, Jr. Now that is REALLY "cheap & over-the-top", IMMHO.

So do you prefer "Hussein" Obama?

Well, John
Again, the only thing that distinguished McCain from thousands of other fighter pilots was getting captured. That doesn't amount to being a hero to me.

Getting shot down and captured is heroic? No.

Cunningham was more in the heroic mold, as you mentioned. He was an ace, which means he shot down at least 5 enemy planes in combat; that's a tough hurdle. I've also seen the Military Channel program on Cunningham's exploits, and he really did perform some heroic feats.

Under the "any combat pilot is heroic" scenario, anyone who saw combat would have to be included in that mold. When you're talking about millions of guys still alive who are combat vets, that diluted the whole idea of heroism.

I'M a combat vet, and I don't consider myself any kind of hero.


Al, I'll posit that
Carter's Middle East policy ALONE has had disastrous repurcussions we've still not seen the end of, and he's been out of office since 1981, 2.5 decades.

That's pretty a impressive failure.

Will is a trade restrictionist
George Will's assertion that we would would be importing Canada's system of government if we were to import their drugs is such a moronic statement. Does that mean that we are importing the Chinese system of government every time we shop at Wal-Mart?
I agree with Will that the pharmaceutical companies have gotten a bad rap. They have improved our lives considerably. But how would opening up free trade in the pharmaceutical industry be a bad thing? Competition is the driving force in a free marketplace. More competition equals better product and lower prices for the consumer. That's the entire point of a free market economy.
George Will's politics are more in line with the isolationist Pat Buchanan/ Ron Paul wing of the party. He is also a coward who opposes the Iraq War.
Will is the one who doesn't belong in the Republican Party. Him and Buchanan and Ron Paul should go off and start their own little anti-war, isolationist third party and leave us alone.
I'll take a war hero like Mccain

Re: Hysterical Historians
"Carter was a disaster during his term, but the fallout didn't last much beyond 1981."

Oh, really - not much beyond 1981, eh?

Hmmm! So the Mullahs don't still control Iran. And Iran is not working to build the 1st "Islamofascist Bomb", and it doesn't control Hezbollah, and by proxy Lebanon. No Nobel Laureate Jimmy Carter fallout here!

You don't actually believe that the USSR would have invaded Afghanistan had our ALLY, the Shah, still controlled Iran and US Aircraft were based there, do you? And if the Afghanistan is not invaded by the USSR, you don't actually believe that Osama bin Laden would have still gone there and fought as part of a nonexistent mujahadeen against a "foreign enemy of Islam" that wasn't there, leading his creating al Qaeda, do you?

And you don't really think that an Iran run by the Shah, an American ally, would have let Saddam Hussien, his arch enemy, get away with invading Kuwaite, do you?

And truly believe that if the US didn't deploy to Saudi Arabia to drive Iraq from Kuwaite and maintain a permanent presence in the Islamic Holy Land to keep Saddam out the Saudi oilfields, that 9/11 would have ever happened, do you?

Okay, where did you learn your geopolitics? Moveon.org, I wouldn't doubt!

mid-east policy...
Ok, BrianR - I think we've finally touched on a topic where I don't agree with you.

I fail to see how Carter's Mid East policy could be characterized as disastrous. He bungled the rescue effort of the hostages in Iran badly, but that pales in comparison to the 4000 military lives the Iraq quagmire has cost us... not to mention the unforeseeable blowback we'll invariably suffer for the estimated 150,000 Iraqi civilian deaths since we invaded. Carter succeeded in bringing Egypt and Israel together... an unprecidented feat, so I see his Mid East policy as a massively welcome improvement to Bush.

I'd prefer to see us get out of the Mid East entirely. Our involvement has only caused bad things to happen for those over there and for We the People. Like Reagan indicated, it's a mess over there... so just get out and stay out.

John Acton...
is proudly carrying the banner for mindless talk radio myrmidons. He has all the inane barbs in there from "Islamofascist" to moveon.org. Congratulations, John - you're a certified non-thinking Hannity mouthpiece.

If you had critical thinking capabilities, John, you'd realize you make the point that we shouldn't be involved in the Mid East at all.

1. Bin Laden was our "ally" against the Soviets. How did that work out for us? We armed the Muhajadeen to the teeth... and then the Taliban took over and facilitated several al-Qaeda attacks through the 1990s... and 2001.

2. Saddam was our "ally" in the 1980s, fighting Iran. How did that work out for us?

3. The Shah was a ruthless dictator who killed and tortured dissenters. Prior to 1953, Iran was democratic... until the US and Britain overthrew their government and installed a puppet more to our liking. And back in 2003, GWB justified going into Iraq because, if for no other reason, we could rid the region of a ruthless dictator.

4. Kuwait was a regional dispute and we had no business being there. In fact, the Muhajadeen wanted to oust secular Saddam from a fundamentalist Wahabbi nation... hence, why al-Qaeda became hostile toward us.

But don't let facts and history influence your political beliefs. Just listen to the convenient rhetoric of Rush and Sean and be a good little talk radio parrot.

Re: Hysterical Historians
"If you had critical thinking capabilities, John, you'd realize you make the point that we shouldn't be involved in the Mid East at all."

Why? Because MoveOn.org says so, perhaps?


scooter
You dumb bucket
I work in phamacuticals. A PHD chemist makes more money in Canada than they do here. So you arguemnt is moot.

May question still stand WHY IS OK TO TRADE WITH CHINA but not Canada!!!!!!!

There is no HINT THAT I LIKE CANADIAN health care in that question what so ever. So stop with the red hearings and use your head and not your emotions.

John Acton
Maybe a strong Iran would have stopped the Russians from coming to Afghanistan, but that's just one unlikely scenario, isn't it. What if, a weakened and unstable Iran, as a result of an extremely brutal and unpopular leader like the Shaw, had precipitated the growing influence of Russia onto the Iranian politics. Instead of the Cold War, thanks to the bleeding they took in Afghanistan, one would have a renewed and strengthened USSR with one of the world biggest oil producers.

BrianR for President!
I'm with you, Wu. I'll vote for BrianR if McCain gets the nomination!

And, to anyone who's paid attention, Carter is STILL selling us (and Israel) out to Iran.

ILYMTYLM_Mom
Carter never "sold us out to Iran," Dick Cheyne did. Iran offered to help us again, like they did in Afghanistan and against AQ, in Iraq and to stop all funding to Hezbollah, but he cut them off.

Carter
It appears people are forgetting that Egypt use to be Israel's biggest enemy and Carter stopped all that at Camp David. All Bush has offered Israel is growing radicalism in their neighbors and a hurt international reputation.

No, John...
because of the facts I cited in my post. But I wouldn't expect someone as intellectually lazy as you to actually read something. Much easier to mindlessly accept whatever rhetoric Master Sean and Master Rush fill you up with.

Hanoi John Kerry & Hanoi Hilton
John McCain would have made an interesting team running for President. One was a POW of the VC for 5 years, and the other was an agent for the VC in Paris after making a propaganda broadcast that the VC commander used as his reason for continuing the war, after losing 40,000 men in Tet. One was in a cell in Hanoi, and the other's picture is in the war memorial in Hanoi as a hero. Without that broadcast, the war might have ended as early as 1969, not as late as 1973, saving thousands of lives.

Ron
Richard Mellon Scaife, who never served a day in his life spent millions on slandering Kerry, so there is a lot of stuff that's very true. Here is a guy with a better reputation and who I'm more likely to believe about kerry.

SEN. JOHN McCAIN: Excellent, we are very good friends. And there was an article in one of the newspapers the other day; I said that we didn't socialize a lot. No, we don't socialize a lot, but we've traveled to Hanoi on a number of occasions and we've worked together on a lot of issues. And I didn't in any way mean to, any of my comments to be construed that John Kerry and I are not good friends. And he has my respect.

Isolationism
Al: "I'd prefer to see us get out of the Mid East entirely. Our involvement has only caused bad things to happen for those over there and for We the People."

What about 9/11 and Afghanistan? Wasn't bombing us (with hijacked aircraft) an act of war like Pearl Harbor in WW II? President Bush asked the Afghan government to surrender Al Qaeda to us. When they refused and couldn't guarantee there wouldn't be more attacks, wasn't our only option self defense by liberating Afghanistan?

Al Qaeda has said they won't cease fire against us until the USA becomes a fundamentalist Islamic nation. How would staying out of the Middle East protect us against that danger?

correction
"stuff not very true.."

Straight Talk over Stiff Talk
George Will is one of the nattering nabobs of negativity floundering about in the tar pits of a conservatism that only sucks in the old thinkers and kills them. Huck and Mac offer vitality and life and much more enthusiasm. Mac has straight talk. George Will has stiff talk. Things stiffen up as they die. Let's move on to a new conservatism that cares about someone beside the wing-tip set.

cannot trust Juan McQuisling
A supporter of ILLEGALS by another name is a quisling. Been there, done that with Presidente Jorge Bush!

"McCain denies that he backed amnesty (citing the fines that illegals would've had to pay to regularize their status under his bill)"

**********************
He can try to put lipstick on the pig, but paying a token fine and learning a little English hardly makes up for border crashing, tax and identity fraud, welfare cheating and often, pandemic social pathologies like violent crimes, drugs, gangs, illegitimacies, and barrio blight. Middle Americans have been superciliously branded "racist, xenophobic and nativist" by Sen. Juan McQuisling, fellow Sen. Lindseed Gramnesty (the grinning hyena), and other apologists for ILLEGAL aliens. Now that about 75% of America is righteously indignant about the ILLEGAL invasion and permeation of America facilitated by quislings like McCain, the artful dodger says he never favored scamnesty, and NOW "he gets the message"... that message should have been obvious prima facie!

Each household of undereducated ILLEGALS will cost taxpayers $1.4 MILLION more in govt. services alone than it ever pays in taxes. This is NOT cheap labor, and the miscreant employers simply pocket their savings-- your hotel room is NO cheaper than it would be if tended by a legal citizen, just as they were throughout history. Today's America with its modern service economy can ONLY BENEFIT on balance from LEGAL, educated, skilled immigrants. Enough of the disingenuous drivel about "just doing jobs Americans won't do that we need done."

Afghanistan...
is not in the Middle East. Getting out of the Middle East means pulling out of Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Israel, and anywhere else in the region.

Yes, al-Qaeda did attack us, so I fully supported overthrowing the Taliban and killing terrorists hostile to the US. This has zilch to do with Iraq, however. And al-Qaeda's reason for attacking us in the first place was because... our presence in the Middle East.

BTW, I'm a non-interventionist, not an isolationist. There's a big difference.

taft
obviously you never studied history. I guess in the libs world fact are meaningless. Carter betrayed the shah of iran and helped install the ayaottlah knomenine who started the iranian revolution still in power and sending terrorism throughout the region. The peace treaty between egypt and israel was brokered elsewhere. Carter signed on with americas money to buy off egyt. We have billions in aid to egypt ever since but they are in the process of enabling more terrorism. Kerry has promised to release his military recordes to prove he was telling the truth. # years later he still hasn't released the records. T. Boone Pickens stated he was willing to pay $1 million to anyone who could prove the swift boat vets lied. Kerry accepted the bet and 4 months after claiming he would prove the swift boat vets lied he still hasn't delivered his proof of innocence. Got any more fairy tales you want to claim as true

Iraq
Al: "Wu Wei - will this quamire not cost us in the trillions? Did Saddam have WMDs and was he conspiring with bin Laden (his mortal enemy)? "

Whether or not Saddam had WMD is irrelevant. We were there to eliminate that possibility. The Democrats had access to the intelligence information, as did other countries who had their own information, and they agreed there was a possibility of WMD. We couldn't rule out WMD because Saddam refused to comply with UN inspections. There is no evidence that Bush lied.

There's an old saying,

"Every man is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own set of facts."

As a Republican who has problems with the last stages of the Iraq War, I feel that the Democrats have hurt the country by not providing an effective loyal opposition. Instead they made up an alternate reality (their own set of facts), and approached the whole thing in such a venomous way that there has been no real debate.

Saying "Bush lied, Haliburton, Impeach, War Crime" turns everyone off except the Far Left, just like talking about Martians would. It's interesting that today the anti-war groups said they will stop trying to cut war funding and use other tactics because they know they can't beat Bush. It shows that their extreme rhetoric didn't work.

king lib
she's also very rich and the money won't hurt either

Facts are against We Wei
But First:Every time conservatives protest that Democrats don't have the right facts, etc., you add credence to the theory that it's all subjective, i.e., we all have our own histories from which we all construct our own model of reality, which is different than anyone else's model of reality, so, in the end, it's all relative and subjective.

But on to the facts: The Iraqi people will live under a Sharia government. This is what most of them want. There was never a doubt about that. Never a doubt before we launched a preemptive war; never a doubt when we launched our preemptive war; never a doubt when we started the surge.

The Shia and the Sunnis will remain enemies. Never was, nor will be a doubt.

McCain For The Democrats
Every republican knows that a vote for McCain is a vote for a LIBERAL. The people from S.C. need to send him a his buddy McGRAHM to Mass. to be retired to the pasture with Kennedy.
The newspapers in S.C. say we owe him our vote
because he was a war hero. Bull I owe him nothing,I fought in Vietnam and was wounded but
that only made me realise that you must always be
on the conservative side. He would only put liberal judges on the bench to appease the democrats. The reason he didn't run with John
Kerry is John Edwards is pertty.
Robert From S.C.

Wu Wei...
Whether or not Saddam had WMD is irrelevant.

--No, it's 100% relevant. Remember, we went in there because Saddam allegedly posed a grave threat to us, and allegedly was seeking to obtain uranium from Niger. There is no evidence that Iraq was even pursuing WMDs... but now, every country is, because the US attacks (Iraq) or threatens (Iran) countries that are nuclear free, but leaves nuclear powers alone (North Korea).

And I'm the last one to defend the Dems, so I agree with you there. They were 100% complicit during the lead-up to the invasion, only to turn around an whine when things (predictably) didn't go well.

There may be no "evidence" that Bush lied, but if you're naive enough to think he really believed that sales pitch to get us into war, I have a bridge to sell you.


Wu Wei
"We couldn't rule out WMD because Saddam refused to comply with UN inspections."

Thats not what Hans Blix says.


Wildwest?
Will you be the first to insist that Pickens establish a non-partisan panel to judge whether Kerry gets the million dollars?

Another Compelling Sourse
We Knew at the Time the War Began that Iraq Did Not Possess WMD

By Jude Wanniski

http://hnn.us/articles/5876.html


WildWest,

Carted didn't help install the Ayhatolla. It was actually Kissinger who talked him into letting the ailing Shaw into the US for medical treatment. Carter should have followed his hunch that that wouldn't go over to well with the inflamed Iranian populous.

Iraq II
> you add credence to the theory that it's all subjective

Opinions are subjective, but facts aren't. If someone said "I hate Bush" that's an unprovable opinion, but if someone says "Bush lied", that's an alleged fact which they should be able to prove.

> The Iraqi people will live under a Sharia government.

Whether or not that is true doesn't matter to US security. What matters is whether it is an Al Qaeda or other government which will attack the United States.

> a preemptive war

A war of self-defense in which we responded to Iraq firing on our aircraft in the UN no-fly zone, and in which the UN said that Iraq's possible WMD were a threat to us.

Everybody lied or a conspiracy?
"There may be no "evidence" that Bush lied, but if you're naive enough to think he really believed that sales pitch to get us into war, I have a bridge to sell you."

As I mentioned earlier, not only did Bush believe Saddam had WMD, so did US Democrats who hate Bush as well as other countries with their own intelligence information. For example Nancy Pelosi, very liberal Democrat, was on the Intelligence Committee and had all the information. Was she lying or not intelligent enough to see that Saddam obviously didn't have WMD? Why didn't countries with economic ties to Iraq who were bitterly opposed to the invasion (France, Russia) produce evidence showing Saddam didn't have WMD?

Wu Wei
> a preemptive war

A war of self-defense in which we responded to Iraq firing on our aircraft in the UN no-fly zone, and in which the UN said that Iraq's possible WMD were a threat to us.

okay, defensive war, so blow the Iraqi air-force into a million pieces if they attack us but why move in lock stock and barrel. Bremer had the the whole country dressed up to where it suited the neocon agenda. Read Imperial Life in the Green Zone, a great book.

Saddam's own people said it
Saddam's own pronouncements said that he blocked UN inspections. There was a constantly changing set of rules like presidental palaces are off limits, etc.

proud lib
if kerry was to bring forth the evidence I am sure he would insist an impartial judge would analyze the data. But until kerry shows up with his proof the matter remains mute. Pickens made the offer to anyone who could dispute the swift boat vets. Kerry is the one who said he had the proof. America is waiting for kerry to deliver his documents.

Wu Wei
I'll agree that it benifited Saddam to make other people think he had the power that WMD gave, but the president was privy to his own intelligence agencies that had some very good evidence that Saddam was lieing.

More from the UN inspector.

Blix stresses that he never trusted Hussein and that inspectors were often misled and stonewalled, but he also points out that they never found any evidence of weapons of mass destruction either. Though Blix welcomes the end of Hussein's brutal dictatorship, his removal was "neither the avowed aim nor the justification given" for the war—-WMDs were the issue. Therefore, he believes the invasion was unnecessary and possibly counterproductive in the long run and is disappointed that they were not given enough time to complete their task. "Containment had worked," he writes. "It has also become clear that national intelligence organizations and government hawks, but not the inspectors, had been wrong in their assessments."

Wu Wei, Can't let that go by
You are simply - and I must assume willfully and cynically - manipulating facts.

The UN acquiesced to Bush's preemptive war after it was launched - under the theory, I read, that it might be able to influence Bush more effectively if they did join up - but it is pure sophistry to claim that because the UN had passed resolutions about Iraq that this was sufficient and legal justification for Bush to take the law into his own hands. The UN did not authorize Bush to act for the UN before his invasion.

Reasons why
"why move in lock stock and barrel"?

http://www.c-span.org/resources/pdf/hjres114.pdf

I refer to the Authorization of Force resolution, which gives three full pages of reasons why, including:

Whereas the current Iraqi regime has demonstrated its capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction against other
nations and its own people;

Whereas the current Iraqi regime has demonstrated its continuing hostility toward, and willingness to attack, the United States,
including by attempting in 1993 to assassinate former President Bush and by firing on many thousands of occasions on United States and Coalition Armed Forces engaged in enforcing the
resolutions of the United Nations Security Council;

Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq;

Whereas Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of United States citizens;

... by refusing to release, repatriate,
or account for non-Iraqi citizens wrongfully detained by Iraq, including an American serviceman, ...

Wildwest
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2007/11/kerry-takes -a-s.html

This site says Kerry took up that offer and Pickens never gave the money to the vet hospital!