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Sunday, November 25, 2007
George Will :: Townhall.com Columnist
Purifying Conservatism with Heroics
by George Will
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WASHINGTON -- In the 1920s and '30s, the American left was driven by multiple factions furiously representing different flavors of socialism, each accusing the others of revisionism and deviationism. Leftists comforted themselves with the thought that "you can't split rotten wood."

But you can. And the health of a political persuasion can be inversely proportional to the amount of time its adherents spend expelling heretics from the one true (and steadily smaller) church. Today's arguments about conservatism are, however, evidence of healthy introspection.

The most recent reformer to nail his purifying theses to the door of conservatism's cathedral is Michael Gerson, a former speechwriter for the current president, and now a syndicated columnist. He advocates "Heroic Conservatism" in a new book with that trumpet-blast of a title.

His task of vivifying his concept by concrete examples is simplified by the fact that he thinks the Bush administration has been heroically conservative while expanding the welfare state and trying to export democracy. His task of making such conservatism attractive is complicated by the fact that ... well, it is not just the 22nd Amendment that is preventing the president from seeking a third term.

Gerson, an evangelical Christian, makes "compassion" the defining attribute of political heroism. But compassion is a personal feeling, not a public agenda. To act compassionately is to act to prevent or ameliorate pain and distress. But if there is, as Gerson suggests, a categorical imperative to do so, two things follow. First, politics is reduced to right-mindedness -- to having good intentions arising from noble sentiments -- and has an attenuated connection with results. Second, limited government must be considered uncompassionate, because the ways to prevent or reduce stress are unlimited.

"We have a responsibility," Bush said on Labor Day 2003, "that when somebody hurts, government has got to move." That is less a compassionate thought than a flaunting of sentiment to avoid thinking about government's limited capacities and unlimited confidence.

Conservatism is a political philosophy concerned with collective aspirations and actions. But conservatism teaches that benevolent government is not always a benefactor. Conservatism's task is to distinguish between what government can and cannot do, and between what it can do but should not.

Gerson's call for "idealism" is not an informative exhortation: Huey Long and Calvin Coolidge both had ideals. Gerson's "heroic conservatism" is, however, a variant of what has been called "national greatness conservatism." The very name suggests that America will be great if it undertakes this or that great exertion abroad. This grates on conservatives who think America is great, not least because it rarely and usually reluctantly conscripts people into vast collective undertakings.

Most Republican presidential candidates express admiration for Theodore Roosevelt. A real national greatness guy ("I have been hoping and working ardently to bring about our interference in Cuba"), he lamented that America lacked "the stomach for empire."

He pioneered the practice of governing aggressively by executive orders. Jim Powell, author of "Bully Boy," an unenthralled assessment of TR, says that in the 40 years from Abraham Lincoln through TR's predecessor, William McKinley, presidents issued 158 executive orders. In seven years, TR issued 1,007. Only two presidents have issued more -- TR's nemesis Woodrow Wilson (1,791) and TR's cousin Franklin Roosevelt (3,723).

"I don't think," TR said, "that any harm comes from the concentration of power in one man's hands." That sort of executive swagger is precisely what Washington does not need more of. It needs more conservatives such as David Keene, chairman of the American Conservative Union for 23 years and Southern political director of Ronald Reagan's 1976 presidential campaign. Writing on "The Conservative Continuum" in the September/October issue of The National Interest, Keene says of Reagan:

"He resorted to military force far less often than many of those who came before him or who have since occupied the Oval Office. ... After the (1983) assault on the Marine barracks in Lebanon, it was questioning the wisdom of U.S. involvement that led Reagan to withdraw our troops rather than dig in. He found no good strategic reason to give our regional enemies inviting U.S. targets. Can one imagine one of today's neoconservative absolutists backing away from any fight anywhere?"

It is a pity that TR built the Panama Canal. If he had not, "national greatness" and "heroic" conservatives could invest their overflowing energies and vaulting ambitions into building it, and other conservatives -- call them mere realists -- could continue seeking limited government, grounded in cognizance of government's limited competences. That is an idealism consonant with the nation's actual greatness.

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About The Author
George F. Will is a 1976 Pulitzer Prize winner whose columns are syndicated in more than 400 magazines and newspapers worldwide.
 
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Great Column
Compassionate conservatism is more rightly called moderate liberalism. Conservatives want less government, particularly less Federal government. We understand its limitations. Those limitations are nicely spelled out in the Constitution. I sure do miss the 10th Amendment.

Robert the show giver
Robert claimed to be a Naval Aviator Rank Capt.
until recently Robert (Naval Aviator, rank Capt.) alluded to regular combat flight ops.

Robert(Naval,Aviator, rank Capt) claimed to be in the famous photo holding up the halp us jon carry sign.............uuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhh except not that photo.

Robert (Naval Aviator, rank Capt.) daily denegrates his commander in chief with personal insults.

Robert (Naval Aviator, rank Capt.)may or may not be a real Naval Aviator, either way he has violated articles of the UCMJ.

Robert (Naval Aviator, rank Capt.) for all his blustering gets an F in the art of persuasion.

Nuther good one Will
I believe Reagan was right to withdraw from Lebanon at that time. I also believe Bush was right to attack Iraq. Any remaining isolationist tendencies I had prior to 9/11 disappeared that day. In my perfect world a presidential candidate would succeed that carried on the current foreign policy and worked tirelessly to reduce, restructure, and eliminate as many bureaucratic turfs as possible. One who unflinchingly vetoes any legislation not meeting constitutional muster, someone who does not make waves in Washington but rocks the h*&l out of it. I want a constitutional amendment that prohibits congress from appropriating a single dollar to anything that cannot be shown to benefit the entire population of the country and not a single person less. If it couldn't stop massive transfer programs like soc sec, it could at least prevent earmarking. I would also include a provision that congress cannot have any say in how the pentagon spends its money. They could only vote up or down on the budget and express wishes in how it should be spent.

Great article!
I'm glad real conservatives are speaking against these big government CINOs. Mr. Will has been all along, of course.

We're going to take our party back soon!!

George
IN this rather rambling dissertation on other people's opinions I found it hard to figure out what George's opinion was. After the final paragraph it appears that he is opposing GWB's "compassionate conservatism aka Neoconism.

LOL George, you have been on the side of liberal Republicans for a long time. Why are you changing your tune now? It has only been in the last few weeks that you have actually been writing real conservative columns. You too have been a big representative of the Democrat faction of the Republican Party.

Conservatism unraveling
Socialism is unraveling in Europe because the average guy has finally come to oppose all of the expensive special privileges that the few get but he has to pay through the nose for.

As conservatives, we should be able to smugly say, "I told you so." But we can't if we sell our limited-government soul for votes by pandering to the few in the name of compassion. Instead, we must join the Socialists/Liberals/Progressives in opposing individual freedom and limited government by yoking every individual taxpayer's income to our expansive, bleeding hearts.

But if this is the future of conservatism, then you can count me out.

As my grandfather used to say...
..."Never draw to an inside straight".

..."Never eat in a restaurant named "Mom's".

..."Never,ever trust the government!"

Fuzzy people, Fuzzy Politicians
Everything has to have a name. I guess it is just the way it is. Our country's population is getting larger and more diverse. Politicians by very nature want to please 51% of the electorate and maintain power. The problem is there is no political base that constitutes that high a percentage of the voting public. Yes there are thousands of splinter groups but each has its own little agenda. We expect our leaders to have nothing on their mind but the “Good of the Country” when the people that elect them only have on their minds “What is in it for me”. I don’t need to agree with my leader 100% of the time, but I do need to respect him 100% of the time. I need to know that they are making decisions based on sound economic and security thinking even if I don’t agree with the results.

Everyone flaunts the constitution but I want a constitutional president. Meaning one who knows that priority number one is the National Security of the Country. We give this responsibility to the President then make him beg to the Congress to run it properly. He can’t pick his military leaders without Congressional approval and he certainly can’t spend any money not allocated by the Congress. It is like telling your adult child, go live your life, but every time there is a big decision, you need to check with me first. The Congress reminds me of George Costantza from Seinfeld, making himself look busy and totally worn out from the task and getting absolutely nothing done except sleeping under his desk when nobody is looking. I say this after watching great numbers of Congressional hearings, around and around and around of bickering and partisan squabbles and in the end, it doesn’t matter, the vote will go exactly how you would have guessed without going through the hours of grueling infighting and political posturing, in other words don’t confuse them with the facts, their minds are already made up.


Post 2
Somewhere along the line we have become a democracy by Polls not by votes. I guess it is only a start as our country becomes more fragmented the more fuzzy our politicians will become, never knowing what they are suppose to say. It sure would be less complicated without handlers, focus groups and speech writers. How about a candidate stating that he has researched the subjects and these are my views. We each have to do it without help and there are plenty of opinions to go around. We are in desperate need of real campaign finance reform where the funds spent are limited to a very small amount and the campaigns are about ideas not incumbents, campaign committees and huge amounts of money.

With all of this and more going on, we want to be able to classify a candidate by a one word descriptor, Conservative, Neo-Conservative, Progressive, liberal......................... And then chastise them when they don’t live up to the label. I am so guilty of this. I live in Maine, where we have two Republican Senators that act more like Democrats in my opinion. I don’t know what that makes them or makes me but the acronym RINO comes to mind for them. Some may call what they do independent thinking and I guess in a way it is but I infuriate my friends by saying I am voting for the Democrat next time, at least there is truth in advertising. If the out come is the same, am I going to feel better by thinking I voted for a Republican when I really didn’t.

If a candidate Democrat or Republican were to convince me that they would defend our country in the dangerous world we live in and not shriek from the important decisions with isolationist ideas and will secure our borders. You can call them a Devil worshipper and I still am going to vote for them.

I hope I made clear points than George did, but then George thought he was stating his view clearly.

As usual hate mail directed to barrym@tds.net

T.R.
While I've always admired Theodore Roosevelt, and his cousin Franklin Delano, have to confess I've always been a bit mystified by the portrayal of T.R. as a conservative. We are, after all, referring to the man who attacked the trusts, was a strong environmentalist, and pursued both an aggressively missionary foreign policy and a strongly reformist domestic policy. In fact, his views were remarkably similar to those considered "mainstream" by the MSM today, except for his opinions on "empire".

Seen in the light of T.R.'s philosophy, FDR's actions during his tenure make perfect sense. Which I'm sure comes as a shock to many "conservatives" who worship T.R. as an example of their "limited government" philosophy, and simultaneously revile FDR as the epitome' of runaway liberalism at its worst.

I don't do either one, really. As I said, I admire both men, but I also realize that their policies were logical in their own times. A century and two-thirds of a century ago, respectively. The modern world needs something rather different, and (IMHO) perhaps a good deal closer to the Founding Fathers' basic theory, which looks more like "That government governs best which governs least", to quote Jefferson.

Oh, and BTW; if anyone is looking for a "Panama Canal" project, try canalizing the Nicaragua River through Lake Nicaragua. You'd have a sea-level canal like Suez (no locks needed) that would be able to handle supertankers and our largest aircraft carriers- neither of which can fit through the Panama Canal's locks.


cheers

eon

Leave Robert alone
He wastes a small amount of space, and you waste a LARGE amount of space complaining about him. He is entitled to his views; as you saw in Friday's USA Today, there are a huge number of GI's with brain injuries never reported by the Pentagon. Obviously, one is poor Robert. Be a compassionate conservative and let the poor brain-injured person write here.

TheHistorian: That could be one reason

for his egregious "behvavior!"

As I understand, he's already been reported to Dept. of the Navy (or such) so at the very least, if he's not nabbed for either impersonating an officer, or violation of UCMJ(8) they might just get him the help he desperately needs.

But, in the meantime, I think we've pretty much decided to put him back on the DNRR (Do Not Read or Respond) List.




Eon
I completely agree. I have posted on here before on how he was the "original progressive" and how is attacks on the "big trusts" were actually BS.

As for FDR, I consider him the worst president in U.S. history.

From Whence The Greatest Good
The basis of our form of government is the belief that the wellspring for the advancement of society is the individual and the freedom that the individual has to make the world better. The Founders limited the power of government as much as they were able to in an effort to maximize the power of the individual to shape his world. They knew the greatest good was to be realized through this application of freedom.

Substituting government action for the action of the free individual promises many things to those with faith in government's ability. The Founders knew that ability was lacking and that the promise would not be fulfilled. When government acts and freedom is reduced all of society suffers. We are rich because of freedom and were we to be blessed with leaders that understood this then life for all would just get better.

So Well Said
Old Relayer - It is so satisfying to read comments that makes sense and are so down to earth as yours as there is so much vitriol in so many comments after the articles. There is so much to learn from the knowledge of others who post and it is disheartening to read the hatred of some.

WHEN O WHEN?
When are conservatives going to "get back to basics"? We have 3 main principles: a smaller federal government, lower taxes and traditonal family values...why is it impossible to hear these from national conservatives (Republicans would be better) on a weekly basis?
The opposing team is no longer the moderates or the liberals but the spawn of the 1960ss...the secular socialist. Why can't conservatives put those two words together? Its how national democrats vote and speak. Secular socialism is in no way "progressive". No the secular socialists are slowing brainwashing voters with yet another inaccuracy in the "word war"... progressive.

Vic
Were you to list the good and bad for FDR most assuredly the bad would outweigh but there were a few good things. That is why I am confident in saying Jimmy Carter was the worst. I can't think of any positives for his presidency and the record since has only been saved by his efforts as a carpenter. If he had taken up carpentry much earlier and stuck with it we would all be better of.

Compassionate government?
Liberals should like this post. A few of them have been arguing since 2002 or so that one can't wage war on "terrorism," because terrorism is a tactic, not a nation or an army. That's a correct objection, if a bit casuistic (casuistry is one of liberalism's strongest qualities.)

It's interesting that the same individuals don't make the same objection against "compassionate government." But where the liberal version about terrorism is disingenuous, this one is directly on the mark.

People can feel compassion for the problems of others. People can band together and decide to do good en masse, and that can be a powerful agent for good (just look at the Salvation Army). Governments are just people with authority; so why can't governments take the same sort of action?

The reason governments can't do it is that governments have too much authority. They're not safe with it. The single, remarkable idea that drove our founders to write the Constitution as they did was the notion that governments cannot be trusted with power.

The founders would have viewed "government compassion" with horror. They would have seen an all-powerful government forcing men who did not share their vision to contribute to causes they abhorred, and would have declared that tyranny (correctly.) They would have feared this government in the hands of people who defined their politics as "compassion" (as liberals do), and thus justified using the power of government to force all men to do as they commanded (as liberals do). They would have noted how strangely similar this was to a National Church, and if they'd foreseen modern liberalism, would have explicitly forbade it in the Bill of Rights.

Governments don't have compassion. People have compassion; and when those people wear the mantle of government, they force others to violate their conscience in the name of government, and produce tyranny.

Edit of reelman46
Its..Now the secular socialists (left out the w)...

Please join me in referring to the modern liberal each and every time as a "secular socialist"... maybe we can win at least one effort to frame the debate correctly!
(there are over 900 posts on theconservativecrawfish that do not hesitate to use the term secular socislist)

Secular Socialists! Huh... good call!

Until we start calling things what they REALLY ARE, we will be side-stepping the real issue.

It's the same as calling ILLEGAL ALIENS "Undocumented Workers" when in fact, they are ILLEGAL ALIENS!



SECULAR SOCIALISTS it is!





TruLib
My criteria for "worst" president involves acts that actually harm the country in both the short term and the long term. FDR may have actually done some good, although I am at a loss for thinking of examples, but he did long and lasting harm to the country and he actually created the depression.

Jimmy Carter did do some bad, particularly with Iran, appointing overwhelmingly liberal judges, and the Panama Canal, but mostly he didn't do anything because he was so incompetent. He was by far the most incompetent president we ever had. I don't view that as the "worst" unless that incompetence results in lasting damage to the country.

This is one
of Will's best columns. Too bad that over the years he has been awol when it comes to limited government due to his running around with the "national greatness" crowd, aka neocons. Still, he makes some great points. People like Michael Gerson and his "Heroic Conservatism" nonsense are every bit as bad as the liberals are. They both have this in common. They aren't happy unless they are interfering in things or people that are none of their business. Liberals concentrate on doing this mainly in domestic politics while Neocons want to meddle on a global scale. Both sides always claim that their intentions were good and at the end only have debt and death to show for their efforts. They are anthema to a republic and can only lead to its downfall.

Wrong!
With all due respect, Mr. Will, you are not talking about conservatism. You are talking about libertarianism. Conservatism has always meant, in America and elsewhere, a willingness to use government to prop up traditional structures. Neither Paine nor Jefferson was a conservative. You know, Republicans are supposed to be the government of Lincoln and TR and I think we lost something when we decided to be the party of nutjob Barry Goldwater. Nixon and Reagan talked a great game of trimming the government (Reagan an old-school Democrat inherited his party's mistrust of the Federal government) but the government expanded under their watch. Bush was honest and he was smart--he told us all up-front he was going to change the role of government to aid individuals in their everyday lives and he has done that fairly effectively. If even Reagan can't shrink the government, then no one can. Big government is here to stay and we can either do like Bush and use it to further conservative ends (lower taxes; freedom for individuals to choose their way in life etc.) or we can content ourself with being the minority party forever. Republicans have never accomplished a major legislative agenda--even as the majority party they seemed to be constantly apologizing and unwilling to do anything. That's an outgrowth of an outdated libertarianism dressed in conservative lingo and our party and nation have suffered for it.

I used to
think the three worst presidents were Lincoln, Wilson and FDR. I've had to add to this list Geo. W. Bush. It is inevitable that the efforts to subvert constitutional govt. would lead to someone like Bush being elected.

Missing point.
One thing George was deafining silent on is a why the huge gap between representative and the citizen. I often wonder what the political landscape would look like if there were never any lobbyist in Wash. This, in my mind, is the base of why our votes are completly wasted and you never get what you were promised during the election cycle. There is a middle man waiting to twist and pervert what you sent to represent you in Wash. Everyone screams about pork, earmarks and wasteful spending, why not erase where it all begins, in that back room. I hear some in congress are angry because lobbyists and their staff are using the congressional exersise room, I say expell all lobbyists from the capitol, and make lobbying(bribing) illegal. Of course lib's love the executive order pen, it makes them feel like lenin or castro for a minute. I don't know any dem. who would drool on the desk of the oval office with that pen in its hand. The far left and the far right are un-electable because neither can get the moderate. To me, the republicans have always been more compassionate and still are on all the issues. Republicans use tough love and dem's. just want to be your friend, ask parents which is better.

Why some good people are Liberals
Socialism and Communism have a seductive appeal, since they are the political embodiment of altruistic (selfless) ideological principles. In those systems each person works for the common good and the State looks after every one! What could possibly be wrong with that?
After all, Judeo-Christian belief systems (and almost all religions) view altruism as a virtue.

So, if Religion is good, a system that is based on altruism must also be good. How can Religious people remain consistent and object to a selfless economic system?

Observe that you will often hear well-meaning people say that "Communism is good as an ideal, but it just wasn't properly implemented in Soviet Russia".

And this is exactly why socialism finds a fertile soil in Religious countries. It isn't surprising that America has a large percentage of socialists - we usually call them liberals.

Religious Conservatives have to use the "but, it doesn't work" argument against socialism. And, they're right! Socialism DOESN'T work.

But that is a weaker argument based on pragmatism - and it lacks moral conviction.

So, some religious conservatives (who can't shake off the intuitive feeling that their argument is without moral strength) attempt to say that they are FOR altruism, but they are for Capitalism (not socialism) because it's success provides benefits to their fellow man.

That's when they have to come up with pretzel-like contortions like "Compassionate Conservatism".

http://voice.townhall.com/g/982f7839-468b-477d-ba97-559e559 8b335

Ladders & lightbulbs

The trouble with the idea "When somebody hurts, government has got to move" is that it puts unlimited demands on government in a country founded on limited government. Life is inherently filled with suffering; somebody is always hurting. As the standard of living rises, our standard of what is "insufferable" rises with it. Hence, the endless tail-chasing of governments trying to alleviate the pain when "somebody hurts."

Moreover, hurts can be very vague and require enormous manpower to remedy. We're not just talking hemorrhages and starvation. People don't live in quite the dwelling they might prefer? "Ow! Gimme shelter!" The kids aren't doing well in school? "Ouch!" Lose your job; no matter whether the category became obsolete or it's just the boss was a jerk. "Yikes! That hurts!" In too many cases the reaction is: Call the gubmint and get a subsidy!

The business of "moving" government to a solution gets to be like the joke about five people being required to change a light bulb. The fact that a professed conservative might make a blanket committal to relieving all hurt at the public expense shows how far away from limited government we have ratcheted. Pointing fingers in an endless loop won't suffice, either.

Perhaps we need to prioritize. How much "hurting" is public responsibility? How much private suffering is endurable? Do true heroics include accepting the fact that you can't always get what you want -- something even the Rolling Stones concede?

The Problem Is....
If there is an implication left unstated that individualism, freedom or the free market are more effective than government.

The basis of conservatism is that all men are at least half evil (see D"Souza)and government should be limited so that bad men can do the least harm.

But if we are at least all half evil then bad men run our religions and our corporations as well as running government.

The fallacy of conservatism is that good will mysteriously be distilled because bad men will cancel each other out in the free market.

This is simply a ridiculous idea. So, let's admit, along with Will, that government has it's limits in doing good, but acknowledge also that privatization is equally limited and that bad, like Hillary's election as president, is inevitable whatever we do.

For all his clear thinking,
Geo. Will sometimes gets a bit addled. He should clearly understand that it is not the job of government to assuage societies limitless need for compassion. Our government was created with only four federal directives:

-To provide a common, reliable currency
-To provide for a common defense
-To provide a national Postal Service
-To provide an fair and impartial judicial system

Everything else is but a bribe to the voters.

Proud Liberal
Your argument is based on the supposition that there is an equality of power in action by the government and action by private citizens. That is not true and is the reason the Founders limited the power of government. Private action is for the most part predicated on the ability of the individual to entice cooperation by offering increased value or by the investment of capital obtained in the free market. Either path can be rejected within the market by the power of choice on the part of consumers.

There is no such restraint on government action. A particular course of action by the government is not dependent on voluntary cooperation. Failing to cooperate with a government program doesn't result in the program ending. You can't tell the government you don't want to pay for a program you don't think will work. Both actions have the potential to put you behind bars. As such the ability of government to do harm is much worse than that of the private citizen no matter who he might be.

The richest man in the world cannot compel me to do business with him. Taking that position may be illogical given certain circumstances but I am free to make that decision. I am not free to take the same position with government and with that loss of freedom the government's ability to do harm is greatly magnified.

Trulib
I simply point out that you postulate - ignoring much evidence and logic to the contrary - that the free market is perfect and has perfect outcomes. A lot depends on the year you start your analysis. Going back to slavery you have people who could be consumers but were excluded and couldn't make their choices. Private funding for elections in our day and age similarly distorts the Market.

Neediest kids live in rich states
USATODAY-The report found:

•States where low-income kids fared best are clustered in the Great Plains and Rocky Mountain regions. The top five: Utah, North Dakota, Idaho, Wyoming and South Dakota.

O’Hare says those states have a greater sense of community and take care of each other.

Haskins says they have more families led by married parents. He says poverty, a major factor in poor people’s well-being, is five times greater in female-headed households than in those with two parents.

•The states that have ranked the lowest for overall child well-being in past surveys — Mississippi and Louisiana — are not at the very bottom for low-income children. They ranked 41 and 44, respectively, because of how their low-income kids fared.

•Children in low-income families — those below 200% of the poverty level, about $41,000 last year for a family of four — scored lower on 27 of 29 well-being indicators than did higher-income kids. The only poor children who did as well or better are those who attend religious services weekly and have dinner with their families at least six days a week.

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/neediest-kids-live -in-rich-states

Grandstanding Appointments
Mr. Will remains one of the few regularly published Reagan-esque conservatives. He rightly points out again here that conservatives learn early on in their maturation that government is clumsy on its good days and wickedly banal the rest of the time.

Assigning compassion to institution is goes well beyond folly. It germinates authoritarianism. The essential protean needed to for building bureaucracy.

The old man’s thousand points of light would have been a good idea, had it not been a government program he was talking about. Promoting compassion by compassionate people is a good incentive program for government. Making it into a department where political hacks go on grandstanding appointments makes my stomach churn.

Proud Lib believes that
"The fallacy of conservatism is that good will mysteriously be distilled because bad men will cancel each other out in the free market.

This is simply a ridiculous idea."

He ascribes an end result to his idea without considering that other outcomes are also possible. The issue is what are your fundamental beliefs.

I believe that the founding fathers rather well described the potential for good will lies with the people and not the government. No ideal outcome is promised, only the potential to achieve good.

eon
"While I've always admired Theodore Roosevelt, and his cousin Franklin Delano, have to confess I've always been a bit mystified by the portrayal of T.R. as a conservative....those considered "mainstream" by the MSM today, except for his opinions on "empire".

See that is the entire problem with fundamentalist conservatism. It does not hesitate to lie by ommission and take out of context or tell only part of the story. TR was a hero to the coal miners for supporting them against the owners during a major coal strike while he was president. I think that is probably George et. al.'s major weakness they want black and white no other shades.


Socialism
It is correct that socialism, even the so-far mild form that we are living under, doesn't work, but that isn't the worst problem.

Government compassion - socialism - denies freedom to dispose of ones resources as one chooses.

Lack of freedom is the problem with socialism. All of the other problems flow from that.

Proud Liberal
The only human activity to which I have ascribed perfection is the perfectly stupid things some people do. I certainly do not believe the free market is perfect but I do believe it provides a mechanism for responding to that which we find undesirable. Being able to withhold support for a certain activity gives people the power to effect change.

Whole industries no longer exist because people were free to access new products and services that were better than those they replaced. Along with being able to purchase the new that was offered we were no longer required to pay for the old. Those involved in the old industry were forced into doing something of value in a changed economy. While often harsh for the individual it is good for society.

Name a government department shut down because it didn't do what was promised. The normal reaction to failure within the government is to throw more money down the well. Refuse to go along with what they want to do and you go to jail. That is way short of perfect.

WHO GAVE AWAY THE PANAMA CANAL?

.....Will .....I know you can be obtuse at times but I really don't get the point of your article ...

.....Governments cannot be compassionate ...they can only coerce in the name of compassion ...Government should be concerned with justice and security ...if voters want compassion they have the Salvation Army ...

.....As far as ideals go I am sure that Marx, Lenin and Hitler had ideals ...Hitler was elected in an open election and was beloved by his people ...until his ideals destroyed the Country ...

.....I don't want a compassionate idealist in the White House ...I want a hard headed pragmatist who can lead and make tough decisions without checking the polls .....COLOSSUS

joe_america
All I really want is for conservatives to quit making claims about the free market and about freedom which are not true. We cannot hold a reasonable and rational conversation until conservatives recognize that they, themselves, put limits on freedom of choice and that there is always some sort of coercion in an economic exchange. If conservatives really believed in the free market and freedom they would let the Market decide on how many abortions, who would perform them and where they would take place and who would pay for them. If there were no market for abortions we wouldn't have any.

eon - 7:03 am
Very interesting comments on the two Roosevelts.

My dad was one who idolized Theodore (Teddy), and hated Franklin with undisguised passion. We can only say that you would have had to live then to truly understand those feelings. Makes a difference, right.??.

As for the canal through Nicaragua, it always was and is the logical place for such a canal. I'm not sure you could do it with no locks, but it surely would require probably only one on either side. The river, by the way, is the San Juan.

The interesting story of why the canal was not built there even though congress had already decided to build it in Nicaragua, is that a Frenchman always wanted it done in Panama, and among other deeds, he found a stamp for one cent from Nicaragua depicting the great lake of Nicaragua with small steam boat and the island of Omotepe in the background. There is no smoke except in the lithograph, and he spent about a dollar and bought the stamps necessary to hand deliver one to each U.S. senator the day before the vote was to be taken.

In each envelope was a letter pointing out the dangers of building where there are active volcanoes and with the stamp on the front of the envelope. Enough said. The vote was negative on the canal through Nicaragua or rather along it's southern border. 75% of the canal would be shared with Costa Rica.

I am extremely familiar with Nicaragua and it's history, and am happy to meet someone else who has some inkling of history and realities.


Proud Liberal
People urging political action to limit abortions are arguing the right to extend Constitutional protection to the unborn. That is a political argument and was being hashed out when the Supremes stepped in and revealed something in the Constitution that was very well hidden. Most people think abortion is wrong at nine months of pregnancy. Many fewer see it as wrong at nine days. What was acceptable on this subject was being debated and had that debate been allowed to finish we would not be yammering about it now.

Gerson
Gerson, the author of Heroic Conservatism, is most assuredly not a conservative. He made an appearance on the Daily Show, where he essentially said to give up the pro-life position of the party, and endorse condom use education programs in our schools and abroad and international charity work with a particular focus on AIDS and poverty in Africa.

Sounds like a Democrat to me.

Franklin & to borrow from Roberta.....

...""By 1932 the fundamental core of the Republic was breaking down. The economy had gotten so bad that basic foundations of the country were starting to implode...including law and order. People cannot eat or feed their families they start having allegiance to a higher law (self preservation) and dealing that way.

It was those "currents" that brought the short guy with a mustache to power in Germany. and there were movements including fascism moving internal to the US."" (typing errors corrected)

It is true that fascism was on the rise along with socialism: the left and the right wing left. In California and a few more states arose an organization known as the silver shirts. These were a small but determined band of dedicates to the Hitler type change to Naziism.

We quietly put some military types with cunning as their middle name on the ground and cleaned up the fascists scene. Since the Socialists (communists) were at that time not so aggressive and dangerous, we allowed that wound to fester and the results are easy to see today. Now we have full blown socialists (progressives) indoctrinated since childhood by their educators into believing and espousing the socialism of America.

I only ask myself, whether we will eventually "clean up" that scene, or simply succumb to educational and social ineptness and slide ignominiously into our own socialism.

Def. ignominiously: In a dishonorable manner or to a dishonorable degree


for Vic
Vic claims: "Why are you changing your tune now? It has only been in the last few weeks that you have actually been writing real conservative columns. "

No, that's not true.

George Will spoke at the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) about these themes a couple of years ago. But at the time (2005?), Bush was still highly popular and Will's talk fell like a lead balloon.

for eon
eon writes: "I've always been a bit mystified by the portrayal of T.R. as a conservative."

Whoever portrayed T.R. as a "conservative"??? Where do you ever hear that???

When I went to school, my history teacher called T.R. a "progressive Republican," which in fact is how Teddy described himself.

Perhaps the confusion came about because since the Vietnam War, anybody who dared to advocate a strong national defense (and Teddy Roosevelt certainly did) has been labeled a "conservative." That's due to the near extinction of the old-style Cold War liberals like Harry Truman and Senator Henry "Scoop" Jackson.

So yes, if you equate bring pro-military and being deeply patriotic with "conservative," then Teddy Roosevelt is certainly a conservative. So is present-day Senator Joe Lieberman.


for reelman46
reelman46 writes: "We have 3 main principles: a smaller federal government, lower taxes and traditional family values...why is it impossible to hear these from national conservatives (Republicans would be better) on a weekly basis?"

Actually, you "HEAR" about it from Republicans and conservatives all the time. It's standard boilerplate rhetoric that they drop into every speech and talking-point.

What we don't get is politicians who ACT on those principles. The same politicians who call for "smaller Government" and "cut Government spending" are the same politicians who voted for the Bridge to Nowhere and a thousand other earmarks.

The same politicians like Vitter and Craig who harped on "family values" are the same politicians who sought out prostitutes and gay liaisons.

Are you happy now?

Proud Lib, sure; pick a topic
that involves the murder of an innocent life. This is one area that the government has a role in: defining homicide. Once the decision was made to allow abortion up to a certain point (by generally accepted bad case law), the market should have been allowed to manage it. This would of course include a more aggressive adoption process.

Instead, the Government manages it so that now it has been expanded to the point where an underage girl can get an abortion with notifying her legal guardians (that's libspeak for parents).

Insane!

Heroic, commpasionate, 'conservativism'
The last pres to encompass these qualities was Bill Clinton.
.He balanced the budget with the cooperation of a Republican Congress.
.He brought the welfare state under control without resorting to usual right wing "welfare queen in a cadallac" racist slams.
.He attempted to take on the health care issue-the third rail. Now the country or politicians are in a better position to get something done as we know now who are the biggest obstacles, what special interests will be attacking and with what.
.With a balanced budget and a pragmatic plan to sustain one the SocialSecurity issue was no longer the threat to national destruction the conservatives love to bang you over the head with. Now, of course, with the new conservativism of the last seven years things are back to pre-nineties despair. Economically, socially and foreign policy-wise speaking, Bill Clinton politics is where we need to be again

Oops! That should be
without notifying her legal guardians (that's libspeak for parents).

To inkling revival
Is there a point at which you would see government as bearing responsibility for its people when they are in distress? Take Gulf Coast hurricanes, for example, and I am not pointing just to Katrina. These are times when a huge force of nature overwhelms the power of the individual to respond and recover. Yes, you can say "it was Joe's fault for living in a hurricane belt" but then we also have the tornado belt and the earthquake belt and the forest fire belt and the Mississipi floodplain belt and pretty soon people can't live much of anywhere. Would you say that government has no role in taking care of people and infrastructure in such a situation? Where would you draw the line?

Yep
The modern day Republican party has learned well from the Democrat party when it comes to fearmongering. The Democrat party would pull that SSN crap while the Republican party hollers about Ahmadinejad. Both are only concerned about their respective parties and getting re-elected.

What Part of

the government's duty and obligation do we ignore under the guise of smaller government and lower taxes?

" establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity..."

Everything you conservatives rail against reasonably falls under the "general welfare" phrase of the constitution.


Clinton Protected Us From the Davidians
"suzerose writes:
Sunday, November, 25, 2007 12:59 PM
Heroic, commpasionate, 'conservativism'"

William F. Buckley’s hypothetical entwined his story with some facts and a very probable fallout on a military fallback, which cannot be ignored nor is it smart to assume with the huge risk we are taking by doubting their report, and assume it is a “call of wolf.” It is better to distrust uncertain doubts on the side of strength than to trust certain truths on the side of weakness. Nothing would please the Fascist mind more than to see the fear mongering Liberals get their way, and the over zealous Libertarians to fall into the pacifist trap.

Liberals want to take over and rule by big government. Libertarians believe the Judaists rule by the same constitution, rights and freedoms of America. How can that be? I do not hear of any heads rolling, or arms and fingers cut for expressing there belief of conscience here in America. It could be after the liberals take over. It was the hero Clinton who said, “Let that be a lesson to the rest of you”, after Waco. “By their fruits they are known.”

Nothing good ever came out of a war. It is like hitting oneself in the head with a hammer because it feels good to stop. However, when another is threatening to take freedom from the people of the world, peace by peace and piece by piece, we need to realize that, we must defend the right of freedom for all people. “An injustice anywhere is a threat everywhere.” U.N. Motto

To Joe America
The problem with letting the private sector handle social issues is that "he who pays the piper calls the tune". We already have many examples of private funding being withdrawn for ideological reasons, as when a sponsor disapproves of the art being painted or sculpted by an artist and pulls his support. When the Bush administration took over PBS it replaced the director and board with conservatives, got rid of Bill Moyer, and gave us The Hour of Prayer instead of BBC comedies. Funding for social agencies that used to be handled without discrimination is now given to religion-based agencies that discriminate in hiring and also attempt religious conversion---using federal funds. The list goes on. And I haven't even gotten into other rotten aspects of privatization, all of which are seen in Iraq (Halliburton, Blackwater) and in Katrina reconstruction. In our present Republican world, greed has been dignified with words like "profit" and "free market". In fact, greed is greed, and it's one of the Seven Deadly Sins under its fancier name, avarice. Many on this board say that government is bad. I say that the private sector is far worse.

suzerose
Your mischaracterization of welfare reform under Clinton and the actions that brought about the balancing of the budget are only eclipsed by your ignorance of the coming debacle due to the ballooning of entitlement payouts. A disaster approaches and when Pres. Bush attempted to implement a fix to the Social Security system it was squashed by your heroes in the Collectivist Party. When the whole thing starts to melt down go look in the mirror to find who is at fault.

Excellent reason
to get out of the UN.

“An injustice anywhere is a threat everywhere.” U.N. Motto

It isn't the role of this nation to be running around the globe "righting wrong", whether done for cynical reasons or that a few goodthinkers can stand in front of the mirror and say to themselves "I'm a good person because I care" when someone else is going to have to do all of this do gooding.

Doug. re: "capt" Robert
To those unfamiliar with this delusional nut case:
He claims to be: a Capt USN, a military & civilian test pilot; Border Patrol pilot, FAA flight examiner, college professor, vice cop, columnist for the National Review, & Mideast affairs consultant. Here are the facts.
He’s a former enlisted man; frustrated pilot wannabe. He spends hours a day on TH. It’s the only life he has judging from the amount of time he spends here. He’s smart and good at Googling info to impress us with BS. He grades those he disagrees with. If your get an F, you know you’re winning the argument, making him look bad. Whenever he gets shot down, which is always, he becomes defensive and argumentative; a sure sign he’s losing another argument. When confronted with questions likely to expose him as a fraud, he answers: “I DON’T ANSWER QUESTIONS”. If he didn’t spend so much time defending himself from massive criticism, he might have credibility. But reviewing his previous posts, it’s obvious no mature adult behaves this way. No one with his claimed credentials wastes so much time on TH defending himself, attempting to equivocate previous lies, and tolerating such abuse. I only work 2 weeks each month but couldn’t waste so much time. He tries too hard to convince, equivocate and justify. In doing so, he fails miserably, and exposes himself as a fraud. His attempts to impress with tech terms researched on the internet, frequent references to his aviation exploits and how much $$ he claims to make as a Govt. test pilot are pathetic and would be considered immature and laughable, even for a teenager. He’s now known as the Walter Mitty of TH. If I wasn’t sure he's a former USN enlisted man, you’d think he’s an immature frustrated teenage geek whose life is spent in front of a computer. And emotionally, that’s what he is, & what he does. I’d suggest he GET A LIFE. But TH is all the life he has. He’s become just a sad joke here.

wee winkie wobbie
what extrordinary feats are you accomplishing today
another roll of quarters from your mommy for the walmart fighter jet
or a super secret g.i.joes special forces op into moronovia
oh thats right- your back stateside doing vets benefits while monitoring walter reed and simultaneously doing flight ops in iraq
how come you didnt tell us about the gov. perfecting the teleporter- must be that super duper double secret top security clearance you got with that decoder ring

Since you mentioned it
By 1932 the normal economic correction that was mismanaged by Hoover already had a foot hold in the country and was official a depression. I think Hoover if he was reelected probably would have seen the errors in his ways and kept hands off and the economy would have had a natural recovery. There was a bust in agriculture after the boom of the 20’s and stock market had a normal correction after a decade of rising prices. So far so normal. Hoover was an Engineer and wanted to fix it but in the end he was also an entrepreneur and would have seen the light and I doubt the economy would have ever got as bad as it did under FDR.

FDR on the other hand brought government intervention to a new level and for the most part it stays with us today as his dark legacy. FDR brought a whole new meaning to depression, in fact it couldn’t be called that with accuracy, it was called “The Great Depression” astutely named. His meddling would have been bad enough with the help of his progressive mind trust but he was also anti business, especially big business. Where Hoover was a working Engineer, FDR was an Aristocrat or as we know them today an elite. FDR was going to be rich no matter what happened to the economy. Some one asked what could he have done, well nothing would have been good, certainly better to do nothing than to screw it up as badly as he did. We do know in hind sight some of the things that would have helped, but certainly doing everything possible to hurt business wasn’t the greatest approach.

Post 2
FDR saw his job as taking all the money away from the working rich (not him he was untouchable and didn’t have to earn it) and distribute it. Went into direct competition with business on many fronts, agriculture to electric generation and distribution. There is a reason the rich get richer, they are smart because of that fact all of FDR’s distributed money would just land up back where it belonged, that is if the government didn’t meddle. “The forgotten man” by Amity Shlaes does a much better job of explaining this than I did, read it.


For those Bush haters that think you were lied to about Iraq when the whole world had the same intelligence we did and came to the same conclusion, read “Day of Deceit”. Not only did FDR know we were going to be attacked, he pushed the Japanese for a year to insure that it happened. Not only did he orchestrate this but then kept the commanders at Pearl Harbor purposely out of the loop so they were totally left defenseless. I grew up in a very liberal Democratic house, FDR was close to God. He may have been the ultimate communicator and the ultimate deceiver. Years later people still think he was the best thing since advent of electricity. It is no wonder FDR’s “Day of Infamy” speech was so effective, he had a year to prepare it. Just shows you how you can manipulate people and that is certainly something that continues to this day.

One of these days I will get a post under 2000 characters, comments or complains direct to barrym@tds.net

Paul
"Government compassion - socialism - denies freedom to dispose of ones resources as one chooses."

Actually that form of government exists already in many, if not most third world countries. Why recreate it here? It simply doen't work and it is not called "Government compassion - socialism" it is usually called some form of patriotic or conservative meaning name.

"Lack of freedom is the problem with socialism. All of the other problems flow from that. "

See here is the BIG/Huge LIE it is conservatives trying to crawl into our homes, bedrooms and personal communications. They are trying to control personal behavior, habits and beliefs. Freedom is not something you get from conservatives.....

LMAO OldRelayer
"Not only did FDR know we were going to be attacked, he pushed the Japanese for a year to insure that it happened. Not only did he orchestrate this but then kept the commanders at Pearl Harbor purposely out of the loop so they were totally left defenseless. "

You jumped the shark baby go stand in the corner with the Bush blew up the towers crowd. LMAO

hal d
wow- for once i actually agree with you

Bleeding from someplace, not the heart..

The general welfare is not "welfare" as you know it.

It means to promote opportunity, not to take care of the lame. Lame today is any so and so who doesn't want to work for a wage.

The truly sick and lame are easily taken care of by private charities and the well intentioned among us.

Why don't you go back to school, but in a country where socialism isn't expounded upon hourly by lame brained teachers, aka, professors in ivory towers.

If the "progressives" among us don't shut up, and they continue to teach their vulgar "theories", we'll soon enough come to an armed revolution. Then we'll see who are the men, and who are the p--sies (sissies). We have enough with the very qualified Lilly who actually is one and easily carries the flag for you so called men.


off topic
this is off topic and just a simple FYI queery
Mizzou beat KU and now is top ranked in the big 12
they will now play Oklahoma for the Big 12 championship
i admit it has been 30 sum odd years since i went to Mizzou (when it was the Big 8) and cant remember how all the conferences played out
so, if Mizzou wins the big 12 - is there a playoff to the national level or is it simple the decision of the AP and BCS
and what or how does a big 12 chsmpion figure in the bowl games
just wanting to learn something new

off topic2
just hoping someone will "splain it to me , lucy"
for future reference

off topic3
rediscovering how much more exciting and action packed college ball is compared to the lame NFL games

ps
Mizzou's only loss this year was against Oklahoma
Ku's only loss this year was against Mizzou last night

Hal Donahue
I am not a conspiracy kind of guy. But if you do some research you will find the facts. I am not saying that we should not have been involved in WWII it was a method that is disturbing. You can find "Day of Deceit" in any library, that is where I got it. It is a quick read, so with no money and little time invested you will know the truth.

wow, a post under 2000 chars, amazing.

OldRelayer
Based on what you typed yes you are

OldRelayer
Have you read "And I was there", by RADM Edwin T. Layton? He was the Pacif flt intelligence officer with access to Magic and the Purple code during WW II. He served under Nimitz following Pearl Harbor. After reading his memoirs I'm inclined to think that FDR didn't know that the Japanese were going to specifically attack Pearl Harbor. I believe that he, Marshall and King believe that it was going to be limited to the Philippines, Guam and SE Asia. Other than this one point I agree with what you wrote about FDR attempting to enter WWII through the backdoor after his failed attempt to get in with his war in the North Atlantic.

Mr Hal baby

You take your bedroom habits, your communications and personal habits to a country that has all the socialism you espouse, and we'll soon see which you prefer.

Leave this country alone and as is, thank you. If you are allowed back in, you'll be glad to find it as it always has been, the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Conservatives according to your "big lie" are just waiting in line to sucker punch you. Hmmmm, not a bad idea, sucker.


onceamarine
"Mr Hal baby"

Was the name calling necessary?

"You take your bedroom habits, your communications and personal habits to a country that has all the socialism you espouse, and we'll soon see which you prefer."

Actually no thank you this is my country and I will not stand by and let you turn it into a third world nation like you want.

"Leave this country alone and as is, thank you. If you are allowed back in, you'll be glad to find it as it always has been, the land of the free and the home of the brave."

"land of the free and the home of the brave" That is what it is in spite of your ilk, not because of it. The country has awakened That rushing sound you hear is the water as you plunge into the sewers of history. The country is now aware of your failures and incompetence.

"Conservatives according to your "big lie" are just waiting in line to sucker punch you. Hmmmm, not a bad idea, sucker."

Nah that would require competence something you extremists absolutely lack

hal d a wobbie
back from the walmarrt fighter jets i see
why dont you fill us all in on you latest efforts on the fight for truth , justice, and freedom fot the land of the free and the home of the brave
buy the way guys, why dont you remind us what you MOS is right now

lilly
agaqin you point to your socialist leanings. That people choose to live where there is risk requires they take a share of the cost that occurs when nature makes a surprise visit. The purpose of insurance is that all who live within an area of risk share the cost that will be required to replace the few who actually suffer damage. The notion that those living in montana are somehow responsible to help pay for coastal devastation or are somehow forced to be included in the base that pays for a risk they will never face is ridiculous. But setting guidelines for those in areas of risk lessens the danger of suffering damage. If you live in a hurricane zone it makes sense that you don't build at the oceans edge where are subjected to the devastating tides but rather some distance inland where tidal flooding won't occur. Asking govt to cover all risk removes personal resposibility. Govt cannot save people from making stupid mistakes. But govt can help establishj guidelines that can help lessen risk. Telling people they if they chose to build in flood plins, they do so at their own risk doesn't pass on additional costs to society for those who have made follish building choices

Delusions
One of the more obvious symptoms of extreme liberalism is the delusions liberals must believe in order to keep to the faith.

"Liberal Fraud Robert" and "Hal "Phil" Donohue" are two of the more extreme examples of the truth behind Ronald Reagan's quote:

"It's not that our liberal friends are ignorant - it's that they know so much that isn't so."

Oh, oh, he called me a name.......
Some as$es are worth the effort to call by their name(s).

We are not going to get in a p-$$ing contest Mr Big Lie. Nope, you just stay where ever the H you are, and take some advice. We don't love you. Not even Lilly can stand you. Go play ballz with Roberta.


Re: CLUELESS "capt" Robert
Clueless “capt” Robert wonders when Fr8dog would turn up. I suspect The Clueless One wonders about a lot of things he can’t figure out, including what airline I fly for. LOL.
So far he hasn’t a clue about this, or much else. But unlike “capt” Robert, who spends most of his time writing inane rants on TH, I have a life and therefore spend little of it here. And during the holiday season I’ll likely max out my allowable 100 hour work month doing my Fr8dog thing. The difference between me and Delusional Robert is; I have something to do with my life. Roberts’ fantasy life seems to be here.
Have a nice life “capt” Robert ;-) ....LMAO

This is fun
Ryan01 - I didn't see that book in my Minerva list, I might have to buy it, which isn't a problem, I actually like having the books. Ok it is on Amazon and I did order it, they usually come in a couple of days. There is one fact immediately that jumps out that Admiral Kimmel was definitely kept in the dark. Layton blames this on high ranking Naval officials or could it be higher, maybe? Certain people were purposely left out of the loop. I do have a hard time understanding how something after 60 years can be still considered secret and blacked out when requested under FOIA. I would be very interested in Layton’s take on this, thanks.

Is Hal Donahue
just stupid or sick? What a jerk!

OldRelayer
I'd have to look at it again to answer you in detail. It has been some years since I read it. For me I accept Layton's explanation as I recall it.

Yes, he was Kimmel's intelligence officer and thought highly of him. He also wrote about Kimmel's attempt to remove the fleet to the West coast only to be blocked by his highers. Too bad, I always thought he and Short got the shaft over this. I hope you enjoy it. The tanker shortage you'll find interesting and who was responsible for that.

Freedom Is As Freedom Does
Hal Donahue writes:
Sunday, November, 25, 2007 1:57 PM

"See here is the BIG/Huge LIE it is conservatives trying to crawl into our homes, bedrooms and personal communications. They are trying to control personal behavior, habits and beliefs. Freedom is not something you get from conservatives....."

A Spicy Response:
It is a self-evident truth that existence and life are to product of existing principles and laws. As life so also freedom is conditional to the exercise of wisdom and good judgment to preserve freedom. Free agency is a gift that we can lose if we abuse that gift.

We are free to choose but we are not free to alter the consequences. Just walk of a cliff and watch your freedoms of choice be dashed to pieces. If we do not master our selves in our private life, we are not worthy to serve in public life.

Robert: A Disappointment to us.
Robert is really a disappointment. The best he can come up with is calling me fr8dog, as if it’s an industry stigma. Robert; can’t you be more Creative? I know you’re trying; but in the battle of wits you seem to be disarmed. Perhaps it hasn't occurred to “capt” Robert that some air freight carriers now have the highest pay scale of any airlines in the world, and pilots flying for passenger carriers would kill to get our jobs. Hint: Google “pilot pay scales”, then check “Pay Rates” for 15+ year 747 captains. Now if Clueless Robert is as good at getting info from the internet as he’s demonstrated in the past, I’ll give him more clues as to who I fly for.

I flew a 747-200 for Orion Air, a Division of Primark Intl. till Jan. 1990 when its prime customer, a major package delivery company, got its’ own Airline (121) operating certificate and bought most of Orion’s aircraft and hired most of its pilots. Now if you're as good at Google search as I think you are, you'll figure it out. And please call me Fr8dog as much as you like. I’ll cry all the way to the bank.



Left-wingers Lack Wisdom And Freedom
Robert writes:
Sunday, November, 25, 2007 7:27 PM
How do youknow when
onceamarine writes: Sunday, November, 25, 2007 4:19 PM
...

a right winger is out of intellect?
...

A Spicy Response:
It is quite a test for us at times to refrain form doing what left-wingers do without thought. Name callong is a part of who they are. Irresponsible and condemning others who act like them which shows what they look like.

In my last comment I made my point clear, that the left-wingers will destroy everyone’s freedom and prosperity with their philosophy.

Spiceman

I have on repeated occasions brought up very clearly exactly your point. The libs and renegades who cling to them are going to be the ultimate downfall for all of us.

It is unconscionable that those who scream loudest about their liberties are the very same ones who will dash it all unless we find a way to control and or eliminate their screams.

Sadly we have to put up with very stupid dip sh--s like Roberta or a very slightly more intelligent HalD so that we might have a decent conversation among the stalwart.



2ed Thought for "capt" Robert

You may not want to do the research I suggested. The truth may hurt. And with all the abuse you get on TH, you’re hurting enough. But I do love seeing everyone, including myself, tearing you a new a** hole every time you post. But perhaps you’re a masochist who enjoys being ridiculed, humiliated and abused. We’re all glad to oblige. LMAO

This Gerson fellow...
"Gerson, an evangelical Christian, makes "compassion" the defining attribute of political heroism."

To all mixed up Evangelicals & Catholics who have forsaken the Bible for this "feel good" salvation by works and good deeds, being compassionate with other peoples money is nothing less than stealing and thievery. If you want to help people then collect money within your own church/denomination! Send missionary teams to what ever country you want but don't smuggle them here so the U.S. taxpayer is burdened with the problem. Don't expect the American Taxpayer to finance your do-goodism. Go pay for your "Rosie Glow" and your "Emotional High" (which have nothing to do w/Spirituality) on your own dime Mr. Gerson! DD

Twisted idea
It is not compassion to steal from the people at the point of a gun and give the booty away.

Compassionate war, another oxymoron!

George Will and his writing style
I can only wonder how many people can really grasp what George Will is actually trying so hard to say, by using sort of a tongue twister like way of saying things. However, I am a Staunch Conservative Christian Republican and consider the present George W.'s administration nothing else but with a mind so absolutely imperialistic as never before. In reality a true insult to Ronald Reagan to begin with, and even more so to just about every Founding Father of this once great nation as I found it to be, 51+ years ago as a legal, yes, as legal immigrant when the Commander in Chief of that time, that of President Eisenhower was still a true patriot and a true American, intent on showing the world America's goodness other than an eternal build up of a war machinery circling the globe and ready to shoot to pieces as this George W. and his manhandler that Cheney is all about, while our borders are still open for business for more hoodlums to enter this nation, some that may even find refuge here and waiting it out for such a time as 9/11. Yes, 9/11 made in America, by America, for America, in the shop of complete and absolute lawlessness/anarchy with the commander in chief its foreman. That says it for me as to where America finds itself today. Imperialism while America sinks ever deeper to level of a banana republic. Yes, America spends billions on fighting illegal drugs, from one report already betweein 600 to 800 billions and yet cocaine now on the streets of the USA it now sell fro only a third it did only a decade or so ago, while America only 4% of the world population consumes two thirds of all illegal drugs used the world over. Yes my cup runeth over with all the disgracing of America being perpetrated by the very present Presideent whose hero is Jesus.

half right
Will is right on Domestic limited Government DEAD WRONG on the mythical "neocon" export of Democracy. M.L. King was right. By extension, a threat to Liberty ANYWHERE is a threat to Liberty EVERYWHERE and a THREAT TO MY LIBERTIES.
I want every tyrant and proto-tyrant on the planet wiped out in such a grusome way as to make it nearly impossible for Tyranny to exist anywhere ever again.

I simply want to be left alone. If the Sandnazis or the commiequeers ain't going to do that, I want them DEAD!

If you don't make it a habid to kill proto-Hitlers very early and quickly then you will always get more of them.

Americans should be instantly prepared to burn out anyone who even hints at thinking like a tyrant. Be it in Syria, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Lebanon or Somalia, or Darfur, or Cuba, or Venezuala, or Russia.

Or San Fransico or Los Angeles or New York or inside the Beltway.

Rabid wolves are too dangerous to be allowed to breed ANYWHERE.

the big mick
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