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Tuesday, September 11, 2007
George Will :: Townhall.com Columnist
Is There an Iraq?
by George Will
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WASHINGTON -- Before Gen. David Petraeus' report, and to give it a context of optimism, the president visited Iraq's Anbar province to underscore the success of the surge in making some hitherto anarchic areas less so. More significant, however, was the fact that the president did not visit Baghdad. This underscored the fact that the surge has failed, as measured by the president's and Petraeus' standards of success.

Those who today stridently insist that the surge has succeeded also say they are especially supportive of the president, Petraeus and the military generally. But at the beginning of the surge, both Petraeus and the president defined success in a way that took the achievement of success out of America's hands.

The purpose of the surge, they said, is to buy time -- "breathing space," the president says -- for Iraqi political reconciliation. Because progress toward that has been negligible, there is no satisfactory answer to this question: What is the U.S. military mission in Iraq?

Many of those who insist that the surge is a harbinger of U.S. victory in Iraq are making the same mistake they made in 1991 when they urged an advance on Baghdad, and in 2003 when they underestimated the challenge of building democracy there. The mistake is exaggerating the relevance of U.S. military power to achieve political progress in a society riven by ethnic and sectarian hatreds. America's military leaders, who are professional realists, do not make this mistake.

The progress that Petraeus reports in improving security in portions of Iraq is real. It might, however, have two sinister aspects.

First, measuring sectarian violence is problematic: The Washington Post reports that a body with a bullet hole in the front of the skull is considered a victim of criminality; a hole in the back of the skull is evidence of sectarian violence. But even if violence is declining, that might be partly because violent sectarian cleansing has separated Sunni and Shiite communities. This homogenization of hostile factions -- trained and armed by U.S. forces -- may bear poisonous fruit in a full-blown civil war.

Second, brutalities by al-Qaeda in Iraq have indeed provoked some Sunni leaders to collaborate with U.S. forces. But these alliances of convenience might be inconvenient when Shiites again become the Sunnis' principal enemy.

Congressional Democrats should accept Petraeus' report as a reason to declare a victory, one that might make this fact somewhat palatable: Substantial numbers of U.S. forces will be in Iraq when the next president is inaugurated. The Democrats' "victory" -- a chimera but a useful one -- is that Petraeus indicates there soon can be a small reduction of U.S. forces.

To declare this a substantial victory won by them requires Democrats to do two things. They must make a mountain out of a molehill (Petraeus suggests withdrawal of only a few thousand troops). And they must spuriously claim credit for the mountain. Actually, senior military officers have been saying that a large drawdown is inevitable, given the toll taken on the forces by the tempo of operations for more than four years.

But Democrats cannot advertise a small withdrawal as a victory without further infuriating their party's base, the source of energy and money. The base is incandescent because there are more troops in Iraq today than there were on Election Day 2006, when Democratic activists and donors thought, not without reason, that congressional Democrats acquired the power to end U.S. involvement in Iraq.

A democracy, wrote the diplomat and scholar George Kennan, "fights for the very reason that it was forced to go to war. It fights to punish the power that was rash enough and hostile enough to provoke it -- to teach that power a lesson it will not forget, to prevent the thing from happening again. Such a war must be carried to the bitter end." Which is why "unconditional surrender" was a natural U.S. goal in World War II, and why Americans were so uncomfortable with three "wars of choice" since then -- in Korea, Vietnam and Iraq.

What "forced" America to go to war in 2003 -- the "gathering danger" of weapons of mass destruction -- was fictitious. That is one reason why this war will not be fought, at least not by Americans, to the bitter end. The end of the war will, however, be bitter for Americans, partly because the president's decision to visit Iraq without visiting its capital confirmed the flimsiness of the fallback rationale for the war -- the creation of a unified, pluralist Iraq.

After more than four years of war, two questions persist: Is there an Iraq? Are there Iraqis?

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About The Author
George F. Will is a 1976 Pulitzer Prize winner whose columns are syndicated in more than 400 magazines and newspapers worldwide.
 
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I've come to expect far better of Will
We don't know that the reason the President didn't go to Baghdad was because of failure in that sector. His movements are scripted and determined by others on such forays. Moreover, the "surge" only got it's legs under it about a month or two ago. Lets not give the democrats any more defeatist verbiage to work with than they already have. Lets see what the next several months produce. Mr. Will, I usually admire what you write, but in my view, you've come a cropper on this article. Give it a break, it's bad enough to have to listen to the left's constant carping and whining, and MoveOn.Org's bull doodle. Don't help these idiots.

mileater@aol.com

Germany and Japan
Germany and Japan were both imperfect democracies leading up to the upheavals of the 30s. Germany entered World War One with the Social Democratic Party in power. Germany, under Bismarck, created the first modern welfare state decades before the USA or Britain did. After World War Two, there were German and Japanese politicians with experience at democratic government that could help ease the way to a democratic future. Konrad Adenauer of Germany was one of these men.

Doug...we're on the same page
Doug: Few societies that have never never experienced democracy are ready for it.

I think that is the point I was trying to make. But Japan and Germany are not entirely like the Irag problem. Those two nations were each unified - of a shared heritage, and then learned democracy. But Iraq is a fragmented society, and the groups seem to hate each other, so in the sense that Will asks the question, there is no Iraq. A fragmented society such as Iraq cannot be turned into a unified nation unless there is some move to a unification of the society, and that will likely take a generation or two.

And you are absolutely right - we are there to try to hold these fragments together until they DO meld into one society that can form one nation. That is why I believe we must be there for a long time. The nation needs a beby-sitter while it grows up - and we, along with some allies, are it.

In truth, we have replaced strong-man Hussein with us. Hussein held the country togethre with brutal force. It is our hope to hold it together with a more just force until it can hold together on its own.

Is this a joke, Mr. Will?

George, since you seem to have taken leave of your senses, here is a “for dummies” way to understand why we are in Iraq:

Average number of Muslim enemies killed monthly by our Brave Troops before Operation Iraqi Freedom: 0

Average number of Muslim enemies killed monthly by our Brave Troops since commencing Operation Iraqi Freedom: 500

Average number of Muslim enemies we will kill if we pull out of Iraq: 0

Please explain George how four years of killing so many of our Muslim enemies and breaking so much of their stuff is a failure?

Last time I checked, the winners of this planet are the people who kill their enemies and break their enemies’ stuff before their enemies can kill them and break their stuff.

Or George, have you joined the ranks of the abjectly stupid and started thinking that there is a way to live with other human beings without some of them turning into enemies who want to kill you and break (or take) your stuff?

Well, Able, good luck. I'm sure you can can just sit down and talk with all your neighbors and get along. What's the name again of that neighbor of yours who lives in Iraq? Cain, isn't it?

George, we went into Afghanistan and Iraq because the Taliban and Saddam Hussein were actively making threats against the United States of America. 9/11/2001 proved that even little dirty nightshirted rats can do significant harm and should be blown out of existence.

why not Baghdad, Will?
Hmmm, I wonder if, in stead of some negative "significant reasoning, the Pres chose to go to Anbar because that province has become the model of some success in building Iraqi relations on a differring path than "bottom down", out of Baghdad?
This is a ridiculous gathering of words into a thesis of text without substance from Geo Will, and much below his normal production level. Shame.
WMDs ficticious reasoning for the invasion. How many times must the speeches by this Administration prior to invasion be reviewed with everyone before it becomes clear that the WMDs of Saddam, eventhough a major plank of the reasoning, was NOT the end all of the reasoning for removing Saddam post-09/11/2007!?!? It's like don't you get it? There were other reasons for removing Saddam considering the new world terror campaign of our enemies; one of the biggest being Saddam himself. It would boggle the mind, but one must wonder if people like Geo Will would have been happier now had Saddam possessed large quantities of WMDs during the invasion of Iraq by coalition forces AND USED THEM, resulting in tens of thousands of deaths and near fatal maimings of allied troopers?!?!?!?!?!? We avoided a BIG bullett during the invasion, and I for one have always been thankful!

Rocky Jones what's with
the are you enlisting? who are you asking?

Rocky Jones thought you were
Naval aviator?

Joe t few societies that
never experienced democracy are ready for it. The idea here is to set them up with the frame work and guide them till they can streagthen and hold that frame. It may take a while but it can and has been done before. I suggest searching for archived statements and articles and independent press and official reports on the democritization of Germany and Japan. I would suggest looking at articles written before 2000. And by pass anything with new american century group on it thus you will not be quoteing the "evil horde of neocons". This may give some needed perspective on the current U.S. efforts in Iraq. I am sure if you are intelectually honest you'll be amazed at some of the similarities and some of the differences.

Why?
>there is no three state solution in Iraq.<

First off, Kurdistan is a separate state in all but the official title. The farce of Talabani as president and Zebari as foreign minister are token positions, and the Kurdish paliamentary bloc is primarily concerned with Kurdish autonomous status. The KRG is the true representative of the Kurdish provinces, and the peshmerga the true security force.

Southern Shiites look jealously at Kurdistan and want the same autonomy. After all, why would they, like the Kurds, want to live in a union with those who have brutally murdered them for decades?

To SteveL
I am neither a historian nor any expert on the ME. I actually think that Bush has done rather well given the hand he was dealt and all the flack and undermining he gets from the opposition party.

I remember early on, after the war was WON, and we began working on building a nation, I heard about the factions within Iraq; and if I remember correctly, these factions have some more-or-less defined regions within Iraq: My thought? Why not a republic of Iraq, with three "states" or however many suited the needs. Don't know if it would work, but it may have been a start.

It would be nice to see peace in that region. And I think we should work toward it, but I must admit, that being one who believes in the Bible, I figure that God's statement about Ishmael will prove true: (Gen 16:12) He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers." I would be glad to learn that my understanding of this text is wrong, but it seems pretty straight-forward.


Did someone hijack George's column
Is that really you, George???

The opinions were unexpected, and the writing was below the usual level, too, for some reason. Are you suggesting that we call it quits and leave? What do you think will happen then?

What a message to send to the Islamo-fascists!!

for Joe T
Joe T writes: "I am behind us being there for the long haul, and I do see progress. But unless we recognize that, right now, there is no Iraq of shared heritage, and adjust our strategy to accomodate that truth, we will only meet with frustration."

The MSM is now citing "sources within the Bush Administration" that Bush is gradually coming around to that realization. And that Bush may actually end up endorsing a modified version of DEMOCRAT Joe Biden's plan for a "soft partition" of Iraq.

Petraeus' current strategy of reaching out to the Sunnis in Anbar EVEN IF Maliki doesn't like it, can be viewed as the first step along these lines: If the Sunnis in Anbar become peaceful and responsible citizens thanks to Petraeus, then even if they still don't have any loyalty to the Maliki regime in Baghdad, the hell with it; we'll take peace in Anbar even if it's not a unified peace.

Give Bush a break here: Given how much political capital Bush has invested in the pipe dream of a peaceful unified Iraqi democracy that can inspire all Muslims in the world to want democracy too, it's painful for Bush to have to decide to punt on that goal and accept a more modest definition of "victory."




for utahnotmormon
utahnotmormon: "Ironically, it is the current policy of this country to deny Kurdistan independent status."

Do you know why? The Bushies promised Turkey that America would not support Kurdish autonomy in exchange for getting Turkey to join our War on Terror coalition.

Turkey has good reason to fear Kurdish independence, because Turkey annexed part of what should be Kurdistan in 1922 and they don't want the Kurds to start agitating to give it back. So shafting the Kurds was the quid pro quo.

As it turned out, the Turks welched on the deal anyway: Because in early 2003, when the time came to allow the U.S. 4th Infantry Division to invade Iraq from Turkey, the Turks stalled, playing for time, hoping that if they delayed long enough Bush would call off the war. Instead Bush went ahead with the war anyway, invading Iraq only from Kuwait. Had the 4th I.D. invaded Iraq from the north (Turkey), it would have passed through the Sunni Triangle and helped to nip the insurgency in the bud. Instead, Baghdad fell to U.S. forces invading from Kuwait but much of the Sunni Triangle remained unscathed by U.S. forces. That helped the insurgency get started in 2003.

Joe T
>I do not see in Iraq a society ready for democracy such as we experience it.<

Then perhaps you should look at Kurdistan, which has been as democratic a society as you'll find in the ME for over 15 years.
Ironically, it is the current policy of this country to deny Kurdistan independent status.
How can we continue the debate until this elementary matter is determined?

Don't know why....
but in my last post, what appears as the fourth paragraph is actually supposed to be the third paragraph.

To Doug
My point was that, asking the question "Is there an Iraq" should not simply be dismissed by "Idiot" and "screw you." Our military is undefeated in Iraq, and it is my opinion they should stay there for a very long time. Democratic governments are not formed by people demanding their rights, but by a society that respects the rights of others, and therefore forms a democratic government to preserve those rights.

I do not see in Iraq a society ready for democracy such as we experience it. It is an infantile society in which each person or tribe strives for dominance over the others without respect to the rights of all to live peacably on his own land. It is my opinion that there is no Iraq, for there is no shared heritage among the peoples that make up the country. Until the people of that nation grow up to the point that they respect one another someone must rule them, just as we rule children until sufficient time and maturity make them trustworthy to rule themselves.

I am behind us being there for the long haul, and I do see progress. But unless we recognize that, right now, there is no Iraq of shared heritage, and adjust our strategy to accomodate that truth, we will only meet with frustration.

The scariest thing for me is that we in the US are losing the cohesion and maturity that are required for a succesful democracy. We are in the age of individual rights demanded by everyone, not individual rights respected by everyone. It seems that much of our society has become screaming babies wanting their bottle and blanket, and damnation upon anyone who gets in the way. Our society is regressing, and in time, some "adult" tyrant will assume authority by promising us eveything we demand. or maybe he is already here.

Doug - maybe I was not so clear
My point was that, asking the question "Is there an Iraq" should not simply be dismissed by "Idiot" and "screw you." Our military is undefeated in Iraq, and it is my opinion they should stay there for a very long time. Democratic governments are not formed by people demanding their rights, but by a society that respects the rights of others, and therefore forms a democratic government to preserve those rights.

I do not see in Iraq a society ready for democracy such as we experience it. It is an infantile society in which each person or tribe strives for dominance over the others without respect to the rights of all to live peacably on his own land. It is my opinion that there is no Iraq, for there is no shared heritage among the peoples that make up the country. Until the people of that nation grow up to the point that they respect one another someone must rule them, just as we rule children until sufficient time and maturity make them trustworthy to rule themselves.

The scariest thing for me is that we in the US are losing the cohesion and maturity that are required for a succesful democracy. We are in the age of individual rights demanded by everyone, not individual rights respected by everyone. It seems that much of our society has become screaming babies wanting their bottle and blanket, and damnation upon anyone who gets in the way. Our society is regressing, and in time, some "adult" tyrant will assume authority by promising us eveything we demand. or maybe he is already here.

I am behind us being there for the long haul, and I do see progress. But unless we recognize that, right now, there is no Iraq of shared heritage, and adjust our strategy to accomodate that truth, we will only meet with frustration.

Doug - maybe I was not so clear
My point was that, asking the question "Is there an Iraq" should not simply be dismissed by "Idiot" and "screw you." Our military is undefeated in Iraq, and it is my opinion they should stay there for a very long time. Democratic governments are not formed by people demanding their rights, but by a society that respects the rights of others, and therefore forms a democratic government to preserve those rights.

I do not see in Iraq a society ready for democracy such as we experience it. It is an infantile society in which each person or tribe strives for dominance over the others without respect to the rights of all to live peacably on his own land. It is my opinion that there is no Iraq, for there is no shared heritage among the peoples that make up the country. Until the people of that nation grow up to the point that they respect one another someone must rule them, just as we rule children until sufficient time and maturity make them trustworthy to rule themselves.

The scariest thing for me is that we in the US are losing the cohesion and maturity that are required for a succesful democracy. We are in the age of individual rights demanded by everyone, not individual rights respected by everyone. It seems that much of our society has become screaming babies wanting their bottle and blanket, and damnation upon anyone who gets in the way. Our society is regressing, and in time, some "adult" tyrant will assume authority by promising us eveything we demand. or maybe he is already here.

I am behind us being there for the long haul, and I do see progress. But unless we recognize that, right now, there is no Iraq of shared heritage, and adjust our strategy to accomodate that truth, we will only meet with frustration.

JLR......a thoughtful man
Sir: I commend you. The liberals that have written can't stay on topic, but what else would one really expect from a liberal? Once a liberals ideas are exposed as bankrupt they try to change the topic to the person exposing them, rather than examining their position.
As to WMD's. There were numerous sources of information that indicated Iraq had destroyed the WMD's. One of them were the weaphons inspectors themselves. But of course, a drunk fellow who the Germans called totally unreliable, seemed to have bought the war.
Iraq is, has been, and will continue to be a tribal society. If it is to be a federation, it will have to be a very loose one.
When people talk of surrender, I am not sure what they mean. Surrender to what? To surrender one has to define victory. That seems to be a never ending changing line in the sand.
We went in to topple Sadamn. We did that. The fact that he had nothing to do with 9/11 seems to escape the unread and uninformed.
It is time to wean Iraq. It is like a child. It will protest, people will hear the cries and think it is bad. However, as a child it will grow. And as any parent knows, we can't control our children, only guide them. I think a country that has elections, has open speech is the guidance they need. That is us.
Some comments have been made about oil. Those comments are in fact mute. Economics will dictate if oil is shipped or not, or even drilled for. And maybe, after today, when salt water burns, which it has and the process will be developed to fill our tanks with sea water, the importance of the Middle East will become a mute point.
In case anyone is wondering, I think the only candidate that is conservative is Ron Paul. He reflects the conservative values an old fellow like me has.
Liberals get us into wars, conservatives get us out of them.
Thank you.

Not Exactly
The most successful economic story in the Arab world is Dubai(Halliburton just moved their world headquarters there). It is a shining example, possibly the only example, of an Islamic state which has thrived economically, not from oil, but from free market principals(though they do use mostly foreign grunt labor).

Brother George
Say whatever one may about Mr. Will; one must admit that his positions are artfully crafted and soundly reasoned. Mr. Will's position is thoughtful - which is not the same as correct.

For over 40-years the First World has been bankrolling its current and future opposition through oil payments. The Middle East regimes now have the funds to challenge the West on a number of social and economic issues. Their desire to establish a new social order where they and Islam are dominant is the same desire the First World has to remain dominant.

Oil is useful for many things but when today’s petroleum based economy is supplanted with a different base the only way the Middle East regimes will survive and compete is to have stable economies and industrial bases. At present they do not – and there are a number of viable alternatives to oil if only the citizens of the First World have the gumption to achieve them.

The conflict between the First World and the Middle East will be long and difficult. The United States’ Civil War provided the necessary lessons of what it takes to keep a country’s population engaged in bloody, draining, emotional conflicts when its soul is at stake.

What I desire to see from such eminent thinkers as Mr. Will, Mr. Buckley, Mr. Buchanan, and their ilk is concise and insightful commentary on the strategic importance of our challenges. Perhaps if they start commenting on first principles the commonweal can demand our elected officials start doing so also.

One thing is certain; we must raise the level of our debate above personal attacks on the character of the individuals we disagree with. This is not on an elementary playground; we should not act as if were.

WMDs "fictitious" a/c George Will.
"What "forced" America to go to war in 2003 -- the "gathering danger" of weapons of mass destruction -- was fictitious." (George Will)

What logic is used to ask a question like that when just in the last few days a vial of phosgene
(poisonous gas used to kill/poison masses of people) and various pieces biochemical war gear FROM IRAQ were found in the UN vaults in NYC?
When Clinton was president, there was no question in his mind or the minds of the UN Security Council that there were WMDs in Iraq. They spent SEVERAL YEARS threatening Hussein to let them come check on him.
Is it really strange that WMDs were never found?
There was ample time to move them into Syria or anywhere else they wanted... while the world "negotiated"!!
Knowing how Hussein treated his own people, it is no big leap mentally to think he would use WMDs in my opinion.
Betty R.

Is there an Iraq?
Sure there is, just as there was a Soviet Union. If your attention spans accomodate enough time (which clearly isn't the case for many of you), you will recall that the former CCCP was put together and held together by Russian imperialism driven by Stalinist ideology, and that this entity devolved into component national/ethnic states when Russia lost the will and ability to maintain its control.

Now recall that Iraq is an entity created by the British after World War I and lately maintained only by the despotic exercise of power by a single member of one of the factions that had been shoehorned into the entity at its creation. Why should anyone find it hard to believe/accept that Iraq might best go the way of the Soviet Union? Are so many of you actually nostalgic, perhaps, for the former CCCP? That would be fun to hear about.

George Will is intelligent, has a good memory, and seems to dislike being patronized and deceived by a mendacious Administration and its lapdogs about the most important foreign policy issue of the day. You go, George!

Pre-Iraq War knowledge of WsMD
I read, therein, by George Will, " What "forced" America to go to war in 2003 -- the "gathering danger" of weapons of mass destruction -- was fictitious."

Monday Morning Quarterbacking is not the same as Prescience.

If Will, or anybody!!! had such info prior to the invasion, it should have been open and notoriously shared with the World.

To this day no one can announce with absolute certainty, "Prior to the invasion there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq". At the time the invasion was underway, maybe, maybe not.

Every intelligence service in the world to which we were privy, including the Brit's, who are probably second only to the Mossad, were certain the WsMD were there.

Any other position is bull pucky.

Black Puke
This is the last time I will post you. I see you have proven my statement so I will go one step further and say it doesn't surprise me. Someone with your obviouse lack of human intelegence would never realize that someone had called them for a total lack of human dignity and then prove them right. I will not post you again as you are not worth the time it would take.

Utahnotmormon
What a great exercise in moral relativism.

Why not go all the way over into cindy sheehan territory and call them freedom fighters?

I'll keep it simple for you.

Good Guys: The people who just want to live their lives without some crazy with a death wish blowing up their marketplace.

Bad guys: the aforementioned crazies who actually want to blow up te marketplace.

I keep hearing cries from the left about how our "Brave troops are shedding blood for oil", and other such nonsense. Just once I'd like to see one of you actually stand up and admit that you couldn't care less if all the military died tomorrow. They are only a handy symbol for you to hold up and say "See? We told you bush was evil"

Lefties don't actually Stand for Anything, they just pick up the latest lefty talking poits and toss them out in the hopes that they will turn reasonable people over to their view of a socialist utopia. Just once I'd like to see one lefty actually admit it.

For all the idiots who try to claim that "Middle eastern people can't form a democratic society.

Have you ever looked at a map? Turkey is a democracy, Lebanon is a Democracy, Afghanistan is a fledgling democracy with a good chance of success. Pretty good for a people who are "incapable" of ruling themselves huh?

Of course these claims usually come from the same group that constantly cry for Affirmative action for blacks and Open borders for mexicans. Because they are incapable of taking care of themselves and need the govt. to protect them from the big bad white man.

If it walks like a socialist, and talks like a socialist, then it's a socialist.

Big pile of black dog doo
How dare you stoop so low as to throw crap on the brave troops fighting for your right to be an idiot!!!

Useful idiots like you have never had the balls to stand up for anything. All you know haw to do is sit in your basement and carp about people who actually work to protect our nation.

From your writing style I'm assuming you're all of 12 years old. At least warren small can actually form coherent sentences and put forth logical arguments, all you do is throw invective and pure garbage out as "truth".
You wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on your A**!!

I bet you woke up this morning rubbing your grubby little hands together saying "Oh boy I get to trash america today!!"

You and all the other loons like you make me sick.

The bad guys
>the surge, which is still in progress and appears to be weeding out the bad guys,<

The bad guys, like "the terrorists," isn't really descriptive enough to describe anyone.

Now, we all know that the foreign jihadists(generically known as Al Qaeda) are definetly bad guys. Beyond that, it gets cloudy. Militias, you say? Maybe, but if you're a citizen of Sadr City, you probably look at Al-Sadr's Mahdi militia more as a security force against Sunni and Baathists who were the original Iraqi bad guys. The same could be said about the Badr Brigade, though their activity is more concentrated in the southern provinces as opposed to Baghdad. Both militias are heavily infiltrated into the national army and police.
The Kurdish peshmerga militia is seen as heroic defenders against any number of foes, including Arabs, Turks, Persians and foreign jihadists. However, if the Kirkuk issue isn't resolved soon, the Peshmerga could become an offensive force pitted against the Iraqi national army. In that case, who are the good and bad guys?

There's lots of grey areas. Today's good guys could be tomorrow's bad guys and vice versa.

George Will Is Consistent II
Mr. Will, in case you check in, we were already at war with Saddam; we had ceased hostilities while he supposedly observed terms that he agreed to. We resumed hostilities once it was clear to even the French and Germans that Saddam wasn't giving up his WMD or letting the inspectors look for them. Several have reported that the WMD wound up in Syria while GWB was doing due diligence to gain authorization to resume hostilities. I believe that is the case: google Kenneth Timmerman. We just haven't heard about it from the administration because they are misguidedly protecting Russia's role in moving the WMDs.

Iraq is quite oil-rich. Would you prefer that the oil fall into the hands of Al Queda? Hezzbolah? Hamas? Iran? Syria? Russia? Or would you prefer that we gut it out until a reasonably stable coalition of the parties who now occupy the area we call Iraq can be relied upon to prevent that oil from falling into evil hands?

Or would you prefer that the Israelis just nuke all those who might do them harm in our absence?

George Will Is Consistent
George Will has opposed our foray into Iraq since day-one; however, he once wrote that he thought Saddam was a cross between evil genius and Daffy Duck. I have never been clear on his position about our role in the middle east. But to suggest that the surge, which is still in progress and appears to be weeding out the bad guys, is a failure is a new low for him.

Beyond that, there were many reasons for resuming hostilities with Saddam, not only the capture of stockpiles of WMD. So to say that going to war with Saddam was merely about WMD, and therefore a bad move - especially since Will posits that there were no WMD, even though there's plenty of evidence that there were - ignores a lot of history, the study of which is usually one of Will's strongest points.


What is the Definition of Winningg
1. We Kill or Capture all Al Qaeda and Terrorists in Iraq and sealed the borders so more can not come in. This can be accomplished in several decades.

2. We Train and Equip the Iraqi Defense Forces to the 350,000 level with the twice the capability for the 130,000 Americans. They will then be able to provide total security for Iraq without US involvement. At the rate the Iraqis are coming up to speed this can be accomplished by 2050.

3. The Democratically elected government truly represents the people and provisional governments provide bottoms up support. Then over 80% of the Iraqis will support the government and Al Qaeda will be driven out of the country. This will probably occur sometime after 2100.

Once any one of these are accompished we can CLAIM VICTORY!

Will is Right
Will's views on Iraq are based on prudence, historical analysis, and the conservative belief that ethnic groups, cultures and nations with their own histories tend to resist molding into peoples radically different from themselves. Bush and the neo-conservatives have the arrogance and hubris to think that a nation can be formed out of a non-nation like Iraq and that democracy can be forced down the throats of people not disposed to pluralistic democracy.

Bush's adventure has cost 3,500 American lives so far, over 20,000 wounded, over $500 billion in expenditures so far with a total of over $1 trillion likely, and probably cost the Republican Party the White House in 2008 and the several likely Supreme Court vacancies after 2008, all of whom will be picked by the Clintons. Conservatives should be crying into their beers.

WHAT!!
So Bush going to Anbar instead of Bagdad is somehow and indication of failure? Ridiculous!!! Also, who is saying that the surge has "succeeded". I don't know of anyone who has made that claim. It is succeeding, but no one said it has succeeded. George is losing it!!!

Dear George:
This is the reason people like my self will always be willing to go to war and die for our country and therefore, people such as your self. You seem to forget that our armed forces keep that freedom that God gave you! Have you served time in our armed forces? Have you ever been under fire in the middle of the night, with nothing to shoot back at, other than a muzzle flash?
And another thing, have you ever given thought to the fact there were mass numbers of people in Iraq that were killed by WMD’s by Sadam? Ergo HE HAD WMD’s! I would say people like you never cease to amaze me, but then after the way people would say we lost in Vietnam, and are busy trying to say it again for Iraq, so I can not!
I don’t really give a crap if we win or lose in Iraq, we are killing large numbers of foreign fighters there, and that is better than having to fight them here and have mass numbers of our citizens here dying in our streets.
I do wonder if you are you like George, and think border security is not important.
Well in closing let me say if you can’t stand the heat, just stay out of the kitchen and let the professionals take care of the cooking!

George Will article "Is the an Iraq?
For my standard George Will is not a objective journalist, he uses a camouflage of conservative, in reality he is liberal democratic.

I don't know why Town Hall show his columns here. It is insulting to many who think as conservatives.

In the this article he shows his colors to be seem to any one who loves this country.



Baghdad
New York Times reporters drove all over Baghdad to do a film on the "situation" to cast their typical light on the negatives. But they didn't mention that they weren't shot at once. Too bad.

What is the difference


What is the difference between what Petraeus recommends and what Hillary and Obama is saying?

Both sides are trying to score political points instead of dealing with the reality in Iraq. The truth is a surge or withdrawal is a tactic not a plan.

The real issue is Iraq is torn apart by sectarian tribal violence that traces back to 700AD. The concept of forming a strong federal government in the near future in Iraq, that is like the west is not achievable.

The other solution of local control in Iraq is merely a containment strategy that requires the U.S. to get off Muddle East oil ASAP.

It does look like the new strategy is to build up strong local control while the military fades out of fighting in Iraq. And I find it strange that Hillary, Obama and Biden are against this idea since they claim they support the concept.

The only real debate is do we have a long term military presence in Iraq. Yet all the front runners from both parties seemed to support the idea of our military being in the Middle East long term. It seems both parties want our military to protect our oil interest in the Middle East and not focus on getting off their oil. This is the part I disagree with!

READ MORE

http://www.controlcongress.com

Loco
The derangment is actually on your part. You have decided that the war is GOOD and anyone who thinks otherwise is BAD. Tghis is what aloows you to quesiton the bonafides of Geroge WIll, who in no way hates Bush and in no way is against long term efforts if they are rational and promise sucess.

You are simply reacting in a baseless and childish way to anyone who doesn't share your views.

Subtract Kurdistan
It is not now, nor has it ever been a part of Iraq except as established lines on a piece of paper called a map.

One of the most abhorrent aspects of this conflict has been the utter refusal of this administration to help the Kurds realize their centuries old dream of an independent homeland.
Our capitulation to Turkey, for political expediency, completely undermines any claim to want democratic societies in the region, since the Kurds already have a democratic society(by ME standards.

Phil Byler
Pay no mind to black nit-wit as he hasn't got one. As I said earlier we are not all of his ilk.

This article doesn't
really make much sense. What is it he proposes? Is he now for or against the war. If against it, should we pull out? It appears he is another one who wants a short war or Bush hatred obscures judgement. And hey! The choice of where Bush visited is a flimsy excuse for such a long article.

Black Puppy
After reading your 10:54 post, you sir are a disgusting piece of crap!!!!

Get the mission straight first.
By the way, lest you think I am for immediate withdrawal, I am not. In fact, I would prefer that we get realistic about what it is going to take, and that our leaders state it plainly.

I am afraid though that in our politically correct society, no leader is really going to have the guts to stand up and say that to be successful we really need to help the Iraqi's change their beliefs.

The war we are in is not just a military exercise or a political game, rather it is a war of whose ideas are going to reign. I do not mean that we should force anyone to become Christians or secularists or anything else, but that we should believe in and enforce our values on the conquered nation. We should expect all sides to respect freedom of speech, press, religion, and all of our constitutional rights. We should actively punish leaders who don't. I frankly doubt that there are many Iraq leaders who in fact have the same values that we have, so I would not recommend giving power to them yet.

If we don't have the will power to stick it out and do it right, then we should probably just set up a limited democratic parliament with a strong man who is beholding to us. Then Iraq would look more like Pakistan or Egypt, but to be safe we would just have to make sure the strong man knew who held his leash.

Wow
Not only is the article interesting and well-thought out, but some of the replies seem bright too. It takes a lot of courage to admit that you've been taken for a ride down a bad road. It is encouraging that George Will has the moxy to do so. So many seem locked into stupidity by their previous choices and would rather believe that if they "stick to their guns" they will "win" eventually. Get real. Taking refuge in delusions won't get us anywhere we want to go.

for Warren Small
Warren Small writes: "Until we conservatives exorcise the dual loyalists, war-worshipers, profiteers and globalists from our ranks, we cannot hope to salvage even a modicum of the spirit of 1776....A top tier RINO in the next presidential election,....may kill the GOP."

Warren,
the problem is that there are two kinds of "RINO" and you are confusing the two:

When most social conservatives use the term "RINO," they mean a Republican who is (in their eyes) soft on abortion and gay marriage. Those are their twin litmus tests as to whether you are a "real conservative" or not. They care more about that than whether the Republican wants to bomb Iran. They still adore Bush (83% of evangelicals still approve of him, according to the polls) because he's for their Christian "family values."

Now YOU are evidently using the term "RINO" to denote the neo-conservatives who were the former utopian Leftists who more recently transmogrified themselves into messianic utopian right-wingers.

Don't use the term "RINO" for them because some might think you're talking about forcing the GOP back to a staunchly pro-life stance--and I really don't think that's what you meant.

Need to teach more than just security
I was originally skeptical about this war because of the fact that nation building is very hard. I never doubted that we could take over Iraq, but I have doubted and still do doubt that we have the will power to make Iraq into a stable place for democracy and freedom.

Why? Mainly because Islam is the primary religion of all the parties, and to date majority Islamic countries are not bastions of freedom and liberty are they.

Through military force we can create a stable place, but if we are not working to change the heart and minds of the people then the place will not stay stable once the force is gone.

The people of Iraq do not have the same basic values that we in the west take as fundamental, and so they need to be taught these values. This is not the work of several months or even a couple of years. Rather this is a generational project.

Look at the former English colonies around the world. The English basically ruled those countries outright for a number of years, but in the process they also taught their values to a number of people. Now that these counties are independent, they have a heritage of freedom and individual rights (which originally come from Christianity by the way), at least among the leaders.

I want our troops to be successful, but I like George Will question what the mission is. Are we in fact expecting and even demanding of the Iraqis that they teach different values then they have in the past? If not then democracy and freedom will not survive where they are not taught.

George Will
Another senior citizen beyond his age of retirement still pontificating from his self perceived podium of wisdom.

I personally know more about the Middle East and the threat of fundamental Islam from my own personal experience there than this supposedly learned man.


"Is There an Iraq?"

Hatfields and McCoys used to fight
up in the Catskill Mountain.

Do they do that any more? No. They got over it.

So what will make Sunnis and Shiites get over it and get on with the 21st Century?

I think they need something to live for besides revenge, and the need to insert into their culture a civilized gentlemen's code.

Hey, as a matter of fact, that wouldn't hurt the culture of the Left, who need to learn to get over losing fair and square in 2000.

It is called maturity.

How did we get Anbar under control?
Will has a good point. My suspicion is that the military is less of the success in Anbar than our support of the Sunni factions. I suspect we bought the peace in Anbar. Nothing particularly wrong with that except if probably strengthens Iran's hand with the Shia's. The US has taken this path before with our support of Saddam against Iran resulting in the atrocities in Kurdish areas, support of rebels in Nicaragua, pandering to the Palestinians for a free state, etc. It does seem to come back to haunt us later. Learning from history is not our strong suit. We continue to demonstrate our total incompetence in dealing with this situation and we are very far from any kind of solution.

Will (the poster, not the author)

Will, your post of 10:23 a.m. sums up exactly the problem with Mr. Will's article: Use of the past tense to discuss an ongoing dynamic.

There's nothing wrong with being a sceptic, unless your criticism it's based solely on preconceived notions and not on actual facts. George Bush neglected to visit Baghdad, and therefore the surge is a failure? Mr. Will ought to be ashamed of his lack of analysis on this one.

Will (the poster, not the author)

Will, your post of 10:23 a.m. sums up exactly the problem with Mr. Will's article: Use of the past tense to discuss an ongoing dynamic.

There's nothing wrong with being a sceptic, unless your criticism it's based solely on preconceived notions and not on actual facts. George Bush neglected to visit Baghdad, and therefore the surge is a failure? Mr. Will ought to be ashamed of his lack of analysis on this one.

The Delay(hammer) Effect
Mr. Will, are you feeling it now? Take one step off the farm and they're all over you.
Use your God given ability of using your brain-- taking info from many sources ,analysing it, and coming to a conclusion without coersion or fear of being called 'names' and if it doesn't fit into the party line you are, despite all repsect garnered in the past, suddenly turned into a lily-livered, spineless, weak-kneed, stupid, (all words that recall gradeschool one might note) person.

Now about the substance of the real issue. All politics are local, and Anbar Province is proving this elementary , conservative principle.
Can the wingers not recognize the debate needs to be opened up to include even this successful reality that was reported by Petraeus and Mr. Crocker?

Can we open up the debate to include the possibility that if we step aside perhaps the Iraqis can do it themselves. They dislike AQ as much as we do.

Can the wingers open their minds to include what Petraeus actually reported and halt their blindness that is cutting off their brains from allowing all info into the debate?

One toe over the line of irrelevance...
5 years from now, when those who can read are reading about Iraq and the blood shed that followed the untimely pullout of troops...George Will's name will be among those noted that worked to weaken the US peoples resolve to win. The terrorists will point to him and call him a visionary. You are a quitter Mr. Will and you wish to spread your cowardice to others. Shame on you.

Interestingly, both the Democratic Party and Osama bin Laden will welcome...no, they will cheer Mr. Will's vision. Are you voting for the party that echos the terrorists?

''a full-blown civil war.''? Get real!
--
The Sunni Arab minority dominating Iraq from the days of its existence as three effectively ungovernable vilâyets of the Ottoman Empire is no longer capable of recovering its control of the country.

First, the Sunni Arab population (more than half of which were employed or otherwise financially supported by the Ba'athi Socialist government of Saddam Hussein) has largely fled or been driven out of the country, and are not in positions where they can control any material assets - indutrial, economic, military, governmental - that would be needed to turn a guerilla insurrection into the restoration of the oligarchy they once commanded.

Second, as with the Kurdish population in the vilâyet of Mosul, the Shia Arab majority in the vilâyets of Baghdad and Basra has gained the time needed to create the cadre by which they can manage those functions of government once monopolized by the Sunni Arabs of Hussein's Tikriti Mafia.

Yes, the Shia Arabs are, by Western standards, corrupt and inefficient.

By comparison against what had obtained under Saddam's regime (or prevails in Syria today), they are far more robust in terms of economic and military stability.

Given a sustained Coalition (read: "American") garrison in the largely Kurdish north - both to stabilize Mosul's borders with Turkey and Iran and to provide a credible deterrent against neighboring counties' incursions in the Eastern vilâyets of Baghdad and Basra - the threat of a Sunni grab for power is effectively nil.

Given Mr. Wills' therefore inexplicable fear of "a full-blown civil war" - a Sunni Arab coup d'etat - I would discount his other opinions regarding outcomes in Iraq.

He simply doesn't seem to understand the situation well enough to be considered credible.
--

Agreement problem
I find Mr. Will's constant use of the past tense to describe the surge (has failed vs has succeeded) irksome. It is an ongoing operation that is succeeding. To mistake Bush's symbolic disapproval of Iraqi government inaction by requiring them to come to Anbar to see him for a sign of failure is a rookie mistake that no big league reporter should be making.

"Is there an Iraq?"
George Will has always been one of my favorite pundits. And I soppose there would finally come an article with which I wuold disagree. This column is the one. George is, I believe, overlooking the fact that even though the political objectives have, indeed, failed to be realized at the top level of the Iraqi government, there is more progress at the ground level. We all expected democracy to take hold at the the top --- we, including George --- were not focesed too high and are missing subtle changes that taking place all around us.

Is there an Iraq/
There are no Iraqis just as there are no Palestinians; there are tribes held together off and on by a strong man. There can never be a democratic Iraq or democratic any country in the ME. We are stupid to send our soldiers to die without the prospect of victory (safety for America). There has ever only been one solution to our war with the Muslim ME - Take and own their oil. They can live however they want in the remaining lands.

Petreaus
Petreaus did not deal with the fact that the country has fragmented, as 4.4 million people have been displaced - over 1/2 of which have fled Iraq. Petreaus also did not discuss the fact that the number of Iraqi's separating internally has increased from 50,000 to 100,000 per month since the surge began, nor that those leaving the country have increased to 60,000 per month. Those fleeing consist primarily of minorities, including the Christians, and some Sunni's. Baghdad is now a series of armed camps in which most neighborhoods are protected by their sects. At the same time, the South is moving to create it's own government, the Kurds have made it repeatedly plain that they will never permit the Baghdad government to run their internal affairs, and the Sunni's have been increasingly armed - as they have repeatedly indicated that they will not live under the rule of Shia sectarian parties controlled by Shia Clerics, and those Clerics have given no indication that they will give up the power they have to be the sole interpreters of the Koran. The Iraq of today is not the Iraq that we started with. That Iraq was created to form a block to Persia, and to do that, the Sunni's were given dictatorial powers over the Shia's. That's over, and the Shia's, whose parties are far closer to the Shia's in Iran than to us, have set up a system that more closely mirrors Iran, than anything we have tried to devise.

Wishing it were different does not make it so.

As the separation continues, the fear some Americans have of accepting a division with some form of a weak central government is likely to lessen. After all, the numbers of Sunni's likely to be affected is declining monthly - so that the bloodbath some fear will become increasingly less likely to occur. This government's responsibility will likely be Baghdad - where the Shia's have increasingly gained power as the Sunni's have been driven out or into armed neighborhoods which they control.

He Must be Watching Opinion Polls
Is George worried about his job? Doesn't want to lose his retirement? He can't really believe what he is announcing, the Iraq war is a failure, etc.

We are still in the game, and as the General wrote, the goal is still a ways off but we are moving down the field, (I paraphrase somewhat).

What good can come from giving up now? Who can predict what history will record about a war that is still going on?

Nothing good, and apparently not George Will.

My 2 cents
Eastlake Joe - Ditto.

Lots of good points made here, and it seems the usual BI have shown up as usual to see what they can do to get everyone stirred up and prevent any meaningful discussion. They seem to be in mid-season form.

Wayfinder - "We can't have genuine discussion on the issues in Iraq when you have an entire party that has pinned its hopes on America's defeat in the war."

I would agree with that point 99% - that one percent being named Joseph Lieberman.

'Is there an Iraq?' An interesting, even provocative question as the title for a column, and that brings me to some recommended reading.

1) 'Churchill's Folly - How Winston Churchill Created Modern Iraq', by Christopher Calderwood. 'As Britain's Colonial Secretary in the 1920s, Churchill made a mistake with calamitous consequences and unseen repercussions extending into the 21st century' ...... 'Churchill's creation of the artificial monarchy of Iraq, forcing together Sunni Muslim Kurds, Sunni Muslim Arabs, and Shiite Muslims under a single ruler and unwittingly producing a Middle Easter powder keg.'

2) Weekly Standard 9/17 - 'Jew-Hatred and Jihad - The Nazi Roots of the 9/11 Attack'


My 2 cents
Eastlake Joe - Ditto.

Lots of good points made here, and it seems the usual BI have shown up as usual to see what they can do to get everyone stirred up and prevent any meaningful discussion. They seem to be in mid-season form.

Wayfinder - "We can't have genuine discussion on the issues in Iraq when you have an entire party that has pinned its hopes on America's defeat in the war."

I would agree with that point 99% - that one percent being named Joseph Lieberman.

'Is there an Iraq?' An interesting, even provocative question as the title for a column, and that brings me to some recommended reading.

1) 'Churchill's Folly - How Winston Churchill Created Modern Iraq', by Christopher Calderwood. 'As Britain's Colonial Secretary in the 1920s, Churchill made a mistake with calamitous consequences and unseen repercussions extending into the 21st century' ...... 'Churchill's creation of the artificial monarchy of Iraq, forcing together Sunni Muslim Kurds, Sunni Muslim Arabs, and Shiite Muslims under a single ruler and unwittingly producing a Middle Easter powder keg.'

2) Weekly Standard 9/17 - 'Jew-Hatred and Jihad - The Nazi Roots of the 9/11 Attack'


Joe t this really burns me

The various colonies that formed our nation were of a shared religious and cultural background, and look how long it took to form a nation. It is a legitimate question to ask if such a thing can be done in Iraq at all, at least within the next generation or two.

No it is not a legitimate question to ask not now and not after 4 years of effort. The time to ask these questions is before you go in.

The thing is to me war is so important that one should not enter it with false principle. If you're going to war your principle's had better be grounded enough to weather any storm of an outcome. I beleive this Presidents principles are firm as I beleive was our reasons to go into Iraq The only question now is how long and to what principles do people hold on to to see it through to the end.

Denying doesn't make it so.
No, there is not an Iraq - unless one believes that a decision made after WWI to create a country to serve as a block to the Persians which stipulated that the country would be ruled by a minority sect with dictatorial powers constituted a country. These last 80 years must be measured against 3,000 years of history in which there was no such country. Based on that reality, Iraq, like Yugoslavia, is an invention that survived only as long as the Sunni's were in power.

Today, the country has fragmented, just as Yugoslavia, the other invention of that era also fragmented. The 4.4 million displaced people in Iraq, over 1/2 of which have fled the country,are a testament to this fact. Those who have stayed have now separated into armed neighborhoods protected primarily by their militia's - or in the case of the Shia's, by the army - which is dominated by Shia's.

Even today, this separation continues as the number moving internally has increased to 100,000 per month, from 50,000 per month last year, and those fleeing the country have increased to 60,000 per month. The surge has not affected this, nor can it. The Iraqi's do not believe that the Shia Sectarian government can provide security, and - as in Anwar - have moved to rely on themselves.

Wishing it were different does not make it so.

The bottom line is that the Sunni's will not live under a Shia Sectarian government, the Shia's will not live under the Sunni's, and the Kurds will not accept any internal interference in their affairs in the North.

Eventually, we will divide this country into states, and Baghdad will very likely be run by the Shia government - due to the fact that the Shia militia's have driven out many of the Sunni's - giving the Shia's effective control.

George Will
I wonder if you realize that Petreaus refuted this column completely yesterday. Perhaps you need to check your sources.

Hey joe t a reasonable
opinon I think not. George will was one of my favorite commentators. Not anymore. I've had enough of people, intelectual people at that continually using that "intelect" to call into question any turn or triumph in the democritization of Iraq. It is about time they join the team and get with the program! I want to see a little more cheerleader and a lot less Eeyor(you know the pessimistic donkey) His "reasoned" opinion is rife with just plain false statements and left leaning deliberate confusions of fact. Fine thats fine you want to cloud the facts and slander the President and his motives fine and I'll use the clearest language I can On this issue George will is an idiot.

the bigger picture

"What is the military mission in Iraq?" Hopefully it is part of a larger whole, the primary component of which is to prevent international terrorists and their enablers from acquiring the ways and means to seriously damage America.

Or does Will think Afghanistan was a "one-off?"

Phil Byler
God Bless your son and keep him safe. Thank him for me for the sacrifices he is making for us and our country. I wish for more like him.

Yes Jerabaub
This was a war of choice; our choice. I am thankful everyday that we chose, especially today. I am even thankful that you have the luxury of criticism.

p.s.
"disparate", not "diparate".

Excellent analysis by George Will
What constitutes Iraq today was an invention by British politicians after WW1, cavalierly drawing a map encompassing diparate factions of muslims, and even tossing some non-Arabs into the brew, just for good measure.

I especially enjoy the bizarre distinction that a bullet hole in the front of the head is an act of criminality, but a bullet hole in the back of the head is evidence of sectarian violence.

Such is the flimsy evidence upon which rests some of the postive statistics that is cited as reason for optimism on Iraq.

Of course the reason for the surge was to create an environment where political reconcilation among Iraqis could occur. Iraq's elected leaders certainly did their part...they performed heroically, as a "gesture" to the valor displayed by our troops, by voting themselves extended vacations(presumably destined for Europe)as our troops and Baghdad residents sweltered in the Baghdad heat.

Iraq was a war of choice, conjured up by this administration.

While it is true we must ensure we leave an Iraq that won't export terror or lead to more mideast unrest, it is this administration that embarked on this war of choice.

SEPTEMBER ELEVEN: "BLESS THEM ALL!"
SEPTEMBER ELEVEN: "BLESS THEM ALL!"

Before calling the surge a failure...
George Will should read Iraqi General Georges Sada's, "Saddam's Secrets" before saying the WMD were ficticious. Sada says the WMD were secretly spirited to Syria in the 3 or 4 month period the UN gave Saddam to clear them before the war. Even Saddam Hussein believed and trusted this man for the truth when he needed it instead of what he wanted to hear and who outlived many others by the grace of God. As far as Bush not going to Bagdad, didn't he go there before to speak with Maliki, personally? Will didn't go there either--- before calling The Surge a failure. "The Surge" wasn't even in place till mid June. Give us a break before calling it a failure. And George Will never struck us as a conservative on TV. Quite the contrary!!!

Well said, Joe T
Going forward is always helpful. What is not helpful are those who attempt to re-manufacture history in order to achieve a political victory.

The consequences of 'the road not taken' will never be known, but must always be considered. I think Bush acted in the best interest of this country, with the support of all those who now stab him in the back. It is always easier to criticize play selection after the fact than it is to call the play in the huddle. Hindsight is not a qualification for being the quarterback, particularly when you signed up as a team member.

Black and White
Bipolar views of the conflict in Iraq make civil discussion of the matter almost impossible. When a person with a contrary view is labelled an idiot, and invectives such as "screw you" are the answer to a reasonable opinion, not much good will be accomplished.

Demolition crews are often necessary in the construction business; but demolition crews cannot build houses. The military is a demolition crew, and it has done its job well. Mr. Will has not denied that. The problem in Iraq is that there are several "construction crews" at work trying to build a house on the lot cleared by the military. Mr. Will's question is, "Is there such a thing as an Iraq, a single construction crew with a single set of plans for a unified society?" No matter how well the demolition crew does, the building project will be a mess unless there is a SINGLE set of plans being realized by an agreed-upon contractor. Our military is presently trying to keep unlawful "construction crews" from building on the lot they cleared.

Mr. Will's question is a valid one. Has their ever been such a thing as Iraq - a single society of shared values over which a single government can rule without tyrannical force? It seems not - there has only been an arbitrarily drawn region of disparate (sp?) religious views and ethnic ancestries who, it seems, hate each other.

The various colonies that formed our nation were of a shared religious and cultural background, and look how long it took to form a nation. It is a legitimate question to ask if such a thing can be done in Iraq at all, at least within the next generation or two.

George Will, you are brilliant, but
wrong on the Iraq war. Yes is it messy. Yes, the progress is fragile. And yes, it will take time to accomplish peace.

The only real question to be answered is whether it was worth it to overthrow a brutal regime with manifest intent to develop and use weapons of mass destruction. Nearly every politician in this country, including nearly all of today's presidential candidates, are on the record in vehement assen in 2003.

Nothing has changed in this equation except that WMDs were not found in proliferation (though evidence of them is irrefutable). Just for a moment consider the outrage had Bush done nothing and Saddam actually employed them against us. Does anyone really think that the Dems would not immediately (and rightly) move for his impeachment?

That this war has not come to a desirable conclusion in record time is a mistake that deserves debate, not partisan opportunism.

The plain truth is that the only thing Dems have to offer America is hatred of all things Bush. They are so blinded by the prospect of political victory that they have over-invested in America's defeat. But not content to just place a bad bet; they are making every attempt to tilt the table in their favor. America does not like to lose, and Americans will not tolerate cheaters.

They will fail and I, for one, will enjoy watching them cook in their own juices.


The Failure Is Will's Pseudo-Intellect
The surge has not failed. What has failed is George Will's prissy pseudo-intellect.

My older son is a U.S. Army Fisrst Lieutenant (wth Ranger tab) serving as an infantry platoon leader in Iraq. I know how hard he and his fellow soldiers are working, and I know the success they are having. That their efforts are demeaned by Will is ridiculous, insulting, outrageous.

So, screw you, Will. Go to h3ll.

is there an iraq? please george.
yes george, iraq is a country with sectarian violence, much like pakistan, afghanistan, india, etc...

nobody said this war will be easy (altho the fighting part has been, just ask anyone whos been to iraq, most soldiers laugh at "insurgents" when they flail into combat.)

the politics are the problem...here at home and in iraq.

Yes, George there is an Iraq
And yes, George, Iraq has a capital. Iraq also has a province where there has been a turn around favorable to the United States. The President wanted to emphasize the turnaround and force Malake and his henchmen that Sunni folks should be brought into the regime. Iraq is hard work but not impossible. Folks like you are determined to make it impossible.

Getting Results
First off, I don't think Will believes the war is a failure. But perhaps he believes, as I do, that we are not truly addressing the situation in a manner that would be proper.

But we can't have a genuine discussion of the issues in Iraq when you have an entire party that has pinned its hopes on America's defeat in the war. It's gotten so bad that many of us on the right side of history have to be wary of anyone who cries failure, even if he is merely being constructive, as Buchanan does.

Given that so long as we don't give up, we will not lose this war. The enemy is fanatical and determined, but he is not invincible, and he cannot contend with the West on our level, or even approaching our level. Time is on our side if we know how to use it.

Chances are likely that we're going to have troops in Iraq for years after Bush leaves office. The question is then, what do we do now?

This war, I'm sorry to say, isn't nearly over. It has barely begun. We have yet to take the war to the enemy in such a manner that makes him question his own faith in a sham religion concocted by a petty desert warlord that makes excuses for sins garnered against those who are not submissive to Islam (which means "submission" in classic Arabic). Until we break this, we will continue to fight.

One day, the human race is going to have to make a decision with regard to Islam if its followers do not alter it's own precepts of faith and salvation through relentless jihad. I realize that sounds nightmarish, but consider that they, the fanatics, have already made that decision about Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, and others nearly 1400 years ago, and they believe it to this day.

In our current climate of emasculated political correctness, it isn't likely that anyone in the west (other than myself and few others) will come to that realization, and our children's children will have to make that hard choice or suffer terrible consequences.




Answer: Yes
To answer your question, yes, there is an Iraq. It's the place where we freed 30 million people form a brutal dictator, and where a nation is finally seeing the brutality of Islamic facism, and where they are in the process of uniting with us to defeat them.
P.S.:" I'm sure that if Bush landed in Baghdad you would have delared that to be evidence that the surge was a failure because he only felt safe in the green zone.
P.S.S,: Can you tell me what explains this man's obsesive hated of all things Bush?

Anbar province was last summer
a hornets nest of fighting and insurgents, at the end of this summer The President of the U.S is able to hold a summit there and that is a failure?

Stevel George Will is not a liberal,

He is an idiot

another odd duck
George Will: a thorough conservative for many years, who thinks the Iraq War is a failure.

That makes you an odd duck around these parts, just like me. We just don't fit into a familiar ideological slot.

Be careful. The usual suspects already tried to smear Pat Buchanan as a "liberal" (!!!) when he announced his opposition to the Iraq War. I'll bet you're about to be smeared with the "L" word too.
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