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Sunday, May 13, 2007
George Will :: Townhall.com Columnist
Hate crime laws
by George Will
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Political entrepreneurship involves devising benefits to excite or mollify niche constituencies. Hence H.R. 1592, the Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 2007, which has passed the House, trailing clouds of sanctimony -- lots of members announced their hatred of hate.

Hate crime laws -- 45 states already have them; Congress does not mind being duplicative -- mandate enhanced punishments for crimes committed because of thoughts that government especially disapproves. That is, crimes committed because of, not merely accompanied by, those thoughts. Mind-reading juries are required to distinguish causation from correlation.

The federal hate crime law enacted in 1968 enhanced punishments only for crimes against persons engaged in a federally protected activity, such as voting. H.R. 1592 would extend special federal protections to persons who are crime victims because of their race, color, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, gender, gender identity or disability. But there are many other groups, so there will be other hate crime bills.

Hate crimes are seven one-hundredths of 1 percent of all crimes, and 60.5 percent of them consist of vandalism (e.g., graffiti) or intimidation (e.g., verbal abuse). Local law enforcement organizations favor H.R. 1592, which promises money. Among the more than 200 organizations supposedly ardent for the bill are the American Music Therapy Association, Aplastic Anemia Foundation of America, Catholics for Free Choice, Easter Seals, Goodwill Industries, International Dyslexia Association, Rock the Vote, Women's Alliance for Theology, Ethics & Ritual. Who knew?

Hate crime laws are indignation gestures. Legislators federalize the criminal law in order to use it as a moral pork barrel to express theatrical empathy. They score points in the sentiment competition by conferring special government concern for more and more particular groups.

Laws hold us responsible for controlling our minds, which should control our conduct. But government increasingly wants to inventory and furnish our minds, removing socially undesirable desires. Law has always had the expressive function of stigmatizing particular kinds of conduct, but hate crime laws treat certain actions as especially wicked because the actors had odious (although not illegal) frames of mind.

This draws government steadily deeper into stigmatizing certain thoughts and attitudes, which incites more and more groups to clamor for inclusion in the ranks of the especially protected. And Timothy Lynch of the Cato Institute notes that prosecutors of supposed hate crimes must pry into defendants' lives -- books and magazines read, Internet sites visited, the nature of his or her friends -- to uncover evidence of unsavory thinking.

If H.R. 1592 makes it to the president's desk, he probably will veto it because it is moral exhibitionism by Congress with no constitutional authorization. H.R. 1592 justifies itself under Congress' enumerated power to regulate interstate commerce. The bill simply asserts that hate crimes affect such commerce and are committed using articles that have ``traveled" in interstate commerce.

The Supreme Court, however, has rejected ``the argument that Congress may regulate noneconomic, violent criminal conduct based solely on that conduct's aggregate effect on interstate commerce. The Constitution requires a distinction between what is truly national and what is truly local.''

By conferring special status -- enhanced protection -- on certain government-favored groups, H.R. 1592 traduces the principle of equality before the law. Yet Speaker Nancy Pelosi says it honors ``the tradition of our Founders, that every person is created equal.'' Here is another sample of the House debate, from Rep. Lynn Woolsey, D-Calif.:

``My granddaughter Julia is 3 years old. She goes to preschool. Even in preschool, they gang up and they bully. The parents at that preschool tell me that my Julia steps in and she stops it. She will not put up with bullying and unfairness. It is our turn. Be as brave as a 3-year-old. Vote for H.R. 1592.''

Plucky Julia aside, questions remain. Are all rapes hate crimes because rapists pick the victims because of their gender? When in 1989, a gang of black and Hispanic youths went ``wilding'' in Central Park, raping and savagely beating a white jogger, was this considered a hate crime? No, because the youths also assaulted some Hispanics, so their punishment was not enhanced.

When a surveillance camera recently taped a mugger beating and robbing a 101-year-old New York woman, he was charged with a hate crime -- presumably hatred of the elderly. His attack on a 51-year-old woman was not a hate crime. Complications multiply, protected categories proliferate. Next? People who wear fur or eat meat? Some writings by the killer at Virginia Tech expressed hatred of the rich, but they are not a category protected in this year's hate crime legislation. Perhaps in next year's.

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About The Author
George F. Will is a 1976 Pulitzer Prize winner whose columns are syndicated in more than 400 magazines and newspapers worldwide.
 
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Waste of Time
Interesting Constitutional issue. So basically, Congress is finding their power for this aggravation under the Spending clause and Equal Protection. Very clever. It's hard to say where Justice Kennedy would side on this.

I will hold President Bush in higher esteem (which is still very, very low) if he vetoes this.

All murders aren't hate crimes?
Here's a novel idea: Every murder committed is a hate crime. It's hatred for the one being murdered by the one committing the murder. Why the need to further segment society by allowing distinction to a few during a criminal act? Does it really make us feel better at the end of the day? Each murder victim, whether white or black, gay or straight, is still dead.

It's simply another example of how the cultural and political left speak of "equality," yet work against anything actually considered equal. Foolishness.

Mr. Will
You left out the group that is leading the effort to push Hate Crimes. The ADL.

http://www.adl.org/combating_hate/
http://www.adl.org/99hatecrime/intro.asp

oops
I meant to say, Hate Crime legislation.

Ron Paul on Hate Crime legislation
Unconstitutional Legislation Threatens Freedoms

May 7, 2007

"Last week, the House of Representatives acted with disdain for the Constitution and individual liberty by passing HR 1592, a bill creating new federal programs to combat so-called “hate crimes.” The legislation defines a hate crime as an act of violence committed against an individual because of the victim’s race, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability. Federal hate crime laws violate the Tenth Amendment’s limitations on federal power. Hate crime laws may also violate the First Amendment guaranteed freedom of speech and religion by criminalizing speech federal bureaucrats define as “hateful.”

There is no evidence that local governments are failing to apprehend and prosecute criminals motivated by prejudice, in comparison to the apprehension and conviction rates of other crimes. Therefore, new hate crime laws will not significantly reduce crime. Instead of increasing the effectiveness of law enforcement, hate crime laws undermine equal justice under the law by requiring law enforcement and judicial system officers to give priority to investigating and prosecuting hate crimes. Of course, all decent people should condemn criminal acts motivated by prejudice. But why should an assault victim be treated by the legal system as a second-class citizen because his assailant was motivated by greed instead of hate?

HR 1592, like all hate crime laws, imposes a longer sentence on a criminal motivated by hate than on someone who commits the same crime with a different motivation. Increasing sentences because of motivation goes beyond criminalizing acts; it makes it a crime to think certain thoughts. Criminalizing even the vilest hateful thoughts--as opposed to willful criminal acts--is inconsistent with a free society.

HR 1592 could lead to federal censorship of religious or political speech on the grounds that the speech incites hate. Hate crime laws have been used to silence free speech and even the free exercise of religion. For example, a Pennsylvania hate crime law has been used to prosecute peaceful religious demonstrators on the grounds that their public Bible readings could incite violence. One of HR 1592’s supporters admitted that this legislation could allow the government to silence a preacher if one of the preacher’s parishioners commits a hate crime. More evidence that hate crime laws lead to censorship came recently when one member of Congress suggested that the Federal Communications Commission ban hate speech from the airwaves.

Hate crime laws not only violate the First Amendment, they also violate the Tenth Amendment. Under the United States Constitution, there are only three federal crimes: piracy, treason, and counterfeiting. All other criminal matters are left to the individual states. Any federal legislation dealing with criminal matters not related to these three issues usurps state authority over criminal law and takes a step toward turning the states into mere administrative units of the federal government.

Because federal hate crime laws criminalize thoughts, they are incompatible with a free society. Fortunately, President Bush has pledged to veto HR 1592. Of course, I would vote to uphold the president’s veto.

Liberty
And this is why I will write a check to, and vote for Rep. Paul.

You do an excellent job promoting him.

Hate Crimes
Even though I'm not in this particular group of individuals, hate crime laws protecting the "rich" certainly need to be included. No other group on earth is more hated than rich people, especially rich people who worked hard to get rich. When someone robs a person they are assuming that person has money and is rich therefore this would make all robberies "hate crimes". This bill needs to be written up and sent to Congress immediately for approval. We should call it HB 1,000,000 if a person makes more than one million dollars they are surely rich.

I want hate crime protection!
I'm a white, Christian, male, smoker, SUV driver, 58 year old retiree, disabled.

Surely there's a slot in there for me somewhere.

And if not, why not?

That way, any time a Lefty derides me for smoking (all the time) or driving my SUV ( all the time) or some kid calls me Pops (not too often as I'm also big and mean), or Gimpy (same deal) I can have them prosecuted for a hate crime of felony insulting.

Makes about as much sense as anything else having to do with this lunacy.




Ham Sandwiches
And remember this goes from the ridiculous to the sublime. When a junior higher threw a ham sandwich on a cafeteria table, Muslim junior highers were quick to point out that this too was a "hate crime" and they no longer felt safe in the school. In Britian an inman's charges for plotting murders, etc., were defended as "part of his religious convictions."

We need to stand up to our politicians who keep promoting these crazy laws. They aren't just moronic, but easily turned around by those who use them for the advancement of evil. No one likes to hear that word or even acknowledge its existence, but America needs to use wisdom and discernment in creating laws, not PC, touchy-feely payback for special interest groups or more power. And that goes for BOTH of our illustrious political parties!

hate crimes for the rich
already got em ...called the irs code.

but this is the exact type of legislation hayek warned about in the 40's targeted law from the central planners enslaving us little by little. road to sefdom is spot on.

Hypocrisy..
When 21 year old Matthew Shepard was robbed and killed, "Marx's Socialist Media" attempted to label it a hate crime due to the fact that Shepard was a homosexual, demanding that the criminals receive the death penalty.

When 13 year old Jesse Dirkhising was raped and murdered by 2 homosexuals, "Marx's Socialist Media" remained relatively silent. When they did comment on it, they attempted to place the blame on Jesse's mother rather than calling it a hate crime by 2 perverts and demanding they be served with a death penalty.



Ron Paul, Paul Ron, Who Cares?
I keep hearing a lot about one "Ron Paul" in the comments section. Thankfully, the MSM has not yet picked up him as something of this year's political "pet rock." The other day on the debate Dr. Paul noted that he opposed an amendment allowing naturalized Americans to run for President. Paul's objection was based on the fact that he's strong for "original intent." Gee, one of the original intents of the Constitution was to allow slavery. Another was to give the vote only to males. Is Dr. Paul as dumb as a rock? Why do conservatives, a handful, continue to support this deeply challenged man? His chance of winning anything is about the same as Arnold Schwarzenegger's pet poodle. Enough with the Ron Paul nonsense please. Let's make 2007 the Year of Reality. If Ron Paul ran against Dennis Kucinich, the latter would probably win. Paul is a blot on the Republican Party.

wow steve
first two non spam posts i have ever seen from you thank you.

but frankly your not fit to carry ron pauls garbage. paul speaks for the libertarian wing of the party. it is the wing that forms the basis for its resurgence with barry goldwater and RR. degree by degree repubs have gone to big spending nation building religious craziness. it has veered from the principles that made repubs worth voting for. in the 70's the dems lost their way and bowed to the exremists in their party and they were weakened because of it. we have done the same thing bowing to the religious right and neo-cons. ron paul keeps the right ideas in play win or lose. you do not.

Steve - U missed the boat!
Steve: You comments show you totally lack an understanding of what "original intent" means! The framers of our Constitution original intent was to allow the Constitution to be AMENDED because they knew that in the future there would need to be changes that reflect changing conditions. The two Original intent items to which you refer have been changed by amendments to our Constitution. Original intent applies to the whole of the Constitution including the amendments. What it means is the law should be interpreted in the context of which it was written and not altered by redefining the context in ways not intended by the framers. When we fail to keep original intent we are then moving towards anarchy as there is not stability or reliability to them, they can be manipulated to obtain a desired outcome by redefining the context - it is inequitable and as such deny equal justice under the law.

Steve - U missed the boat! Part 2
One more thing, Steve, regarding the Constitution's original intent towards slavery. Perhaps you also are ignorant of the fact the slavery was hotly debated and strongly opposed by most of the framers . They wanted to abolish slavery but certain southern states refused to sign the document if slavery were abolished. The formation of a new government hinged on all states joining and so a compromise was made for the sake of establishing a new nation which would not have taken place otherwise. The original intent was to later amend the Constitution and outlaw slavery. The fact that it was not achieved in their life times does not mean they did not try. Our Republic was not perfect then and it is not perfect now which is why the Constitution made provisions for being amended. What those of us who support Original Intent are saying is, if you do not like what the original framers intended for our laws there is a process to correct that and it can NOT be done by Judges, Legislation, or Presidential Order, that is Unconstitutional. A fact we have ignored for far too long.

The Truth Shall Make Us Free
I didn't miss any boats. Paul said he didn't want the Constitution amended to allow for naturalized AMERICANS to run for President. I regard Mr. Paul as sincere, but he just doesn't think through what he says. It's a matter of simple fairness, just as were the amendments dealing with slavery. Paul was misusing the phrase "original intent," which is one I understand very well and he does not. If originalism is taken to an extreme, free speech would not cover the telephone, which did not exist in the early days. Naturalized Americans can vote, and they will not be voting for Paul or candidates he supports. Nice going, Ron.

Troglodytic Originalism
Troglodytic originalism, the kind Paul represents, would mean the Constitution would now have about 9,000 amendments to incorporate every form of communication that didn't exist in the early days. He should apologize to all naturalized citizens and then get out of the race.

To Caelestis
This bill seeks federal hate crimes via "interstate commerse" because hate crimes somehow effect commerce. I find that to be absolutely rediculous. Of course nearly everything congress has done since FDR has been unconstitutional and rediculous.

To Steve:

What you are looking for is the term "textualist". This allows for incorporation of the original intent and allows for modern interpretations based on the actual text. And no, if we did what the founders actually intended it would not take 9,000 amendments. In your example all they would have to do is simply state that all communications originating in and around a person's house is protected.

In any case, I am not sure that the founders intended that ALL conversations in and around a house should be protected because conversation was "available" then and it was not listed.

And BTW, the Supremes have already ruled that hate crimes based soley on verbiage was unconsitutional. They also ruled that burning a cross could not be banned under hate crimes.

They have ruled that hate crimes based on actual violance is legal under the Constitution. This I do not agree wth. To me hate crimes are a violation of the 14th amendment. Federal hate crimes not only are a violation of the 14th amendment, but also exceed the authority of congress to legislate.

What we need is something from the Supreme Court that says after "x" number of votes for a law that is unconstitutional that a referendum is actuated that calls for a recall vote of the effected congress critter.

Just think of it!
Ooooh! Just think of the federal bureaucracy needed (taxpayer supported, of course) to examine each and every crime to see if it was motivated by "hate"! Just think of all those extra lawyers specializing in "hate crimes" that we're going to need to defend ourselves if we say boo to a goose! Just think of all the money to be redistributed!


How about the Inverse
When shall we be told who to Love? When to Love? How to Love? Where to Love? How shall we be taught concerning things not deserving of Love? Will the absence of Love be equated with Hate?

Hate is also an healthy emotion! Even God hates. Some things should be hated. Righteous Anger and Indignation may be coupled with Hate and still be seasoned with Love.

From whence do so many who favor this "Hate Crimes" hogwash derive their moral sentiments?

Is it eastern religious thought? Just look at the diversity of eastern religions and how peacefully they all live when mixed together. Hindoos loving Muhamidans, Muhamidans loving Buddist, Buddists loving Zoroastists, and the of course, the tie that binds... They all love the Jews. WHATTT!!! No the tie that binds here is HATE.

It is laughable, regrettable, and shameful that today we have legislators entertaining such drival.

More bums need to be thrown out in '08.

GEM

Slippery slope
This sort of hate crime legislation HAS to be unconstitutional because it makes some (minorities, homosexuals, non-Christian religions) more equal than others.

When was the last time you heard of the murderers of a white, Christian male being charged with a "hate crime"? Chances are, you haven't.

And hate crime legislation will lead to a day where anyone who does commit a crime against a non-protected group (a white, Christian person, for example) will be given a LIGHTER sentence, if one at all.

Because once we decide that certain groups are more worthy of protection than others, groups that do not receive the same will be counted as less worthy of ANY protection.

What about love crimes?
I'm all for equal treatment under the law, and it may be that love motivates certain criminals and should be considered at sentencing. Of course, just like at hate crimes trials, it would also be up to juries to discern the quality of the defendants' loving motivations in determing the degree of punishment merited, for instance, by the crime of rape when the rapist honestly believes that he loves his victim (or at least is able to persuade a jury that that is the case).

Come to think of it, that WAS O.J.'s defense, that he loved Nicole "Too Much." He may very well have instructed Old Whatshisface his lawyer to make that argument in Ito's court had "Love Crimes" legislation been on the books at the Federal level, and yes indeedy, Interstate Commerce was implicated. O.J. first flew out of state, then considered driving out of state in his Bronco, clearly the behaviors of a man driven by excessive love for his dearly departed wife and her male friend.

Odd thing, though, how "reasonable doubt" can APPEAR to so many outside observers as quite irrational, but then, we weren't on the jury, were we? Without having been instructed to do so, in their minds they'd already decided that "If the love fits, you must acquit!"

O.J.'s jury of his peers felt the love, no doubt.

Wonen Studies Majors Need Jobs Too...
> Among the more than 200 organizations
> supposedly ardent for the bill are the
> American Music Therapy Association, Aplastic
> Anemia Foundation of America, Catholics
> for Free Choice, Easter Seals, Goodwill
> Industries, International Dyslexia
> Association, Rock the Vote, Women's
> Alliance for Theology, Ethics & Ritual

There is a very big thing being missed here: hate crimes laws include requirements that defendants pay for counseling and such. The Violence Against Women Act already has led to this - men accused of domestic violence have to attend (and pay for) feminist counseling.

So too with drunk drivers - many states (Maine for example) have changed the drunk driving laws from jail/fine/license suspension to forcing defendants to pay for "alcohol counseling." Which is provided by a private monopoly that got the law passed...

This is a special interests bill -- what it intends to do is create jobs for political activists who will be able to make money from people sentenced to listen to them preach. That is what is really involved here...

Remember the "Robber Barons" & the '20s?
0ne can argue if it was good or bad, but the following are fairly accurate facts:

1: The 1920's was a gilded age, where almost everyone was making all kinds of money on stocks that only went up and up and up.

2: Big business interests controlled Congress. One can argue if this was good or bad - and the objective answer is that it was some of both - but big business folk controlled Congress.

3: The courts, including the pre-switch SCOTUS, supported business interests. Striking down labor laws comes to mind.

4: And the crusading voices of the media were critical of all of this.

TODAY, we also live in a gilded age - the prices of houses have gone up and up and everyone has become rich.

TODAY, the anti-white-male brigade controls Congress. It is hard to name the Coalition-For-All-Good-Things but it essentially is a combination of race/gender/etc activists and welfare spending folk. Not always in agreement any more than the big business folk were (railroads versus steamship companies for example) and not always proposing things that are bad (the introduction of Standard Time comes as an example from an earlier era) but the simple fact remains that they run things.

Today the courts are ruling in favor with this coalition the very same way they ruled for business interests back in the '20s - and the legal logic is equally flawed.

But the guilded age hasn't yet, quite, ended.
Housing prices are on the verge of collapse, vast numbers of people are going to be retiring in the near future without funding for promised committments, and the business cycle has not been eliminated. There will be another recession, not like that of 1990-91 or that of 2001-02 but like that of 1974-5. Or 1929.

History has shown us that entrenched political movements go too far and then get swept overboard -- compare the political reality in 1931 versus 1935...

This too will pass. The foolishness of the 1970s not unlike the foolishness of the 1890s has reached its zenith and will soon crash & burn. And the scary thing is that there may be a backlash.

Much as the antitrust laws were first used against labor unions, not the trusts they were intended against; what is the chance that a changed political dynamic might direct the hate crimes laws against the very people who proposed them...

How far would one have to go to paint the anti-war croud as hateful? Hateful against the soldiers, or the President, or the country?
And what would prevent a future political majority from forcably censoring them????

Pirate
Thank you for pointing out this is a special interest bill. Just one of the thousands of bills bought and paid for by the people who will make money from it. My Dad (who was a city employee) once remarked that anytime you see a parking meter, some pol got paid off, because parking meters do not make money, they lose money. Perhaps you've noticed that most municipalities that want to make money from parking do it with attended lots. Otherwise, the meters just get vandalized.

Apply Hate Crimes to Enron

Clearly Kenneth Lay hated himself and hated his stockholders. Let's dig him up and re-try him and kill him more.

"Special Protection"
BrianR pointed out the fallacy of reductio ad absurdum of the "Hate Crimes" laws, i.e., that what may be true for a small number is true for the whole class.

If a white guy kills a black guy, is that a hate crime? It may be or it may not be. Maybe the black guy simply owed the white guy money. The problem occurs when one reads the language of the bill. The language pre-supposes that the white guy killed the black guy based on race, requiring the defense attorney to refute the implication.

That is diametrically opposite of the "innocent until proven guilty" doctrine and the 5th amendment. How does one "prove" that the reason
the defendant killed was for money, not hate? Confess to the killing?

The Hate Crimes laws are the most egregious examples of pandering to a class of people. The Socialist-Democrats have fine-tuned this to an absurd degree with the goal of diminishing Americanism into waring factions. It was called "divide and conquer" back in the day.

Look for "Hate Crimes" against Hispanic illegals next.


Hate crime legislation
makes do-nothing politicians feel like they are doing something meaningful. Instead, this legislation is destructive and does nothing to being the races and those of alternate lifestyles together.

But the law feels so good...
But hey, it makes us feel good to pass such laws. Does it make a lick of sense? No. Is it inherently unequal? Yes. Does it make thinking a crime? Well, yes. Does it make greedy trial lawyers chomp at the bit? Yes.

Here is the Democratic Congress' new mantra: If it feels good, pass it.

One Way Hate

.....Will ...

.....If a Homo-sexual assaults a straight man/woman will that be a "hate Crime" ...not in a million years ....this odious abomination needs to be veteod and expunged from our laws ...all State "Hate Crime Legislation" is unconstitutional and if we had a Supreme Court that followed the Constitution they would rule as such .....COLOSSUS

Happy Crimes
Hate crimes: Brought to you by political correct liberal guilt and tainting the law system since 1968. So I guess, any other crime that is committed like an assault&battery, destruction of property or what have you- those crimes are not done out of hate or anger? Are those happy crimes?

YEAH! Can we have Happy/Love Crime legislation, so that when a husband beats his wife he gets a reduced sentence because he beat her out of love? Stupid analogy I know, but whatever.

But seriously, why the eff do we need "hate crime legislation?" If it comes down to it, a guy who is race A beats up a guy who is race B for being race B, let a judge deal with that when sentencing the criminal. Just plain silly. I am waiting for Lynn Woolsey to push her Child Bullying Act of 2007.

Ransom: LOL
You: "Here is the Democratic Congress' new mantra: If it feels good, pass it."

Unfortunately, nothing "new" about that!


Apologies to Lex
Sorry Lex. I didnt notice that you had already proposed the "Love Crime Legislation."

Honest error and my stealing your idea was not based on hate or love, but ignorance and carelessness.

Everybody hates me
And you're all against me. I hear the comments and can feel the stares at the back of my head. You're all in on it and I know it so stop denying it. I think we need a "Pasadena Phil Hate Crime Law" to protect me before it is too late. You all know I'm right. Stop picking on me.

PasPhil: Hahahaha!
Hey, even paranoids have real enemies!


BrianR
Ok then let's call it the "Paranoids Hate-Crime Bill" because everybody hates us paranoids.

Apology accepted, Dan
You've proven the old adage that great minds think alike ;-)

Umm, Pasadena Phil, what if you start hating and picking on yourself? Can you be charged?

baseballdoc
This kind of "Hate Crime Legislation" comes as a result of MSM priorities and lack of common sense on the part of Legislators.
They don't make a fuss over common every day things like the dog bites man. News is when man bites dog.
They don't bother with things like this.
http://plancksconstant.org/blog1/2007/05/why_the_msm_doesnt_r.html

Lex
I'll be the first to file charges. I may be paranoid but I'm no hypocrite. And I know where the bodies are buried.

Karennkc: Hate crime!
She called Hawkins an "ignorant hick" and Coulter a "vile charicature"!

Someone call 911!

Get the cops!

Hate crime in progress!


The idea
behind any hate crimes legislation is that an individual person is less important than whatever attributes he contributes to the social fabric. An attack influenced by one of those attributes is therefore "worse" than an "objective, non-personal" crime of violence. Doesn't exactly sound like equal-protection or equality before the law to me...

Those of us who see this as anti-equality and those who see this as a proper response to social conditions they don't like (correctly or not) are incapable of reaching a middle ground and will continue to talk past each other (not here today, yet, but several posts last week got to the point of the same arguments being virtually shouted back & forth over & over). I personally am probably done commenting on this topic after this. It get tiresome talking to walls.

Is the Congress starting to remind anyone else of the Governor's cabinet in "Blazing Saddles", on a whole host of issues? (Harrumph, Harrumph, Harrumph...)

karennkc
RE: Your last hit&run post addressed to me on another thread & date.
This may come as a shock to you BUT;
MOST of the Conservatives here at TH are Veterans.
Please keep that in mind while you are addressing snide remarks to us in your posts.
I am a WW2 vet and the other man you insulted is a Vietnam vet.

As to your posting old letters to someone else for me to read;
The only people who are interested in your garbled, huge cut&pastes are the people on DialUp who sit there discussing your ancestors while they wait several minutes for the page to load.

As to your position on the war in Iraq;
People like Reid, and people like you who support him cause MUCH needless death and suffering on both sides when you keep holding out hope to the enemy.
This war would have ended long ago if not for your kind, so be of good cheer when you hear of a bomb killing women & children in an Iraqi market.
You helped make it possible!

There's another inverse
... to consider, beyond Gary's (whom shall we be commanded to love?).

Shouldn't the odiousness of a crime be mitigated if the perpetrator were proven to simply adore the category of victim he, perhaps inadvertently, selected?

If a guy assaults a man in the street, taking his wallet and watch and so forth, and leaving him bleeding from a couple of knife wounds... if it turns out the victim is gay... but if it also turns out that eighteen character witnesses testify that the assailant has always been a big fan of gays -- shouldn't that mitigate the perspective of the law about this crime?

After all, the perpetrator wasn't engaged in assaulting while hateful. If he had known he was assaulting a gay man, he would at the very worst have been merely assaulting while full of approval -- surely deserving of consideration, and a lesser punishment. Perhaps he might have even given the victim a pass, if he had just known the man was gay. Shouldn't the law consider that, and take a melancholy interest in might-have-beens?

I can't be satisfied until the law divines the thoughts and prejudices of every offender (and indeed every victim; after all, a victim's putative thoughts no doubt contribute to the crime-promoting environment), and calibrates guilt and punishment accordingly.

Odd
that jurors will be instructed to consider the mindset of the accused but not allowed to know,or told to disregard any past convictions, in the spirit of a fair trial. interesting two step they are trying to play

YEHBUT;
How do you know if the stranger who offends you is Gay, or Jew, or some other protected species?

Protected individuals should be required to wear an arm band so you know in advance that combination punches can't be used as replies to deliberate insults.


Dave Stone: can I join you?
Class-action thingie?

Sounds like a true winner to me, and I want on board the gravy train.

That IS what it's all about, after all, right?


To booboolane
It is a crime only if you are a Druid AND sharia law is in force.

Good Grief
Leave it to our ignoramus Congress to have the sheer audacity to think that they can legislate bad things from happening to people. That is not the purpose of legislation, especially when it applies to violent crimes. And yes that idiot congresswoman Woolsey is my congresswoman and you see by her stupid analogy what I have to tolerate. She is the epitomy of the militant left. She only cares about those who agree with her...Period! Everyone else might as well not exist.

My Opine
On the money in your post to karenkc! I firmly believe this war would be a done deal if it weren't for the left of this country. They inspire Al Qaida and instill doubt among the Iraqi's which forces them to make choices they probably would not have otherwise made, as evidenced by their elections. If I were in their shoes I'm not sure that I wouldn't react much differently.

Lolo
Would you help me convince Vic to do his part to save the Planet?
Sunday is not even over yet and he has already used his whole weeks rations.
http://www.liberalwhiners.com/print.php?a=1218

The result of de-education
"Hate crimes" legislation is only possible if we ignore the history of western jurisprudence. It's an expression that could only have come about after the culture had been thoroughly DE-educated, as ours has.

The notion behind "hate crimes" laws is that the hate crime is a special crime in that it affects not only the victim, but the entire class the victim belongs to.

The problem with this is that the very notion of a "crime" includes the damage done, not just to the victim, but to the entire culture. In western law, actions that address harm done by one individual to another are called "torts", and are tried in a civil court. The category of "crime", tried in criminal courts, is reserved for those acts which by their very nature affect everybody, not just the victim. That's why they're tried by the state; crimes are "The State of (whatever) vs. (Criminal's Name)".

So, for example, auto theft is not handled as a tort, even though the auto is personal property. Why? because the theft of large, personal property attacks every property owner equally; the sanctity of private property is the root of our political and economic independence. When someone steals, it terrorizes every property owner, because their own property is no longer safe.

So, the reason offered by those who tout "hate crimes" laws is actually characteristic of every crime: all crimes affect all citizens.

Ultimately, we have the Left to thank for the dilution of education; and their goal, actually, was always to produce a docile citizenry that would allow them, the Left, to control everything. It's working.

MyOpine
"Protected individuals should be required to wear an arm band so you know in advance that combination punches can't be used as replies to deliberate insults."

:-)

karenkc
I realize you put extra sugar in your koolaid as you read the liberal rags and suck up all they have to offer then pat yourself on the back as being intelligent. Now please explain to me what your post about the war have to do with this column? A little nutcake to go with that koolaid?

To MyOpine
I've gone to all "organic". I now use the "red cob" then "white cob", followed by "red cob" if needed methodology. After all, if we make all that ethanol we have to do something with the cobs. Can't feed 'em all to the hogs.

Liberty
You know I am not going to let you go around here smiling.
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp?Page=/Politics/archive/200705/POL20070511b.html


__________________________________________
Stand back everyone, please clear the launch pad.
Countdown to liftoff begins as soon as Liberty starts grinding his teeth and glaring at the monitor.

To RJLigier
That last post of yours was insane. Please do not post cut and paste articles longer than a few paragraphs. Especially when the article has NOTHING to do with the topic of discusion.

To MyOpine
The "Cap and Trade" system is the Kyoto approach in which you award one company x units and another company y credits. When Y doesn't use all of their credits thay can "sell" some to X. Note that the trick is to get yourself allocated more credits than you currently use.

Lets use this example since a Dem issued this law. Company SolarInc makes solar panels. They have a factory of 100K ft2 and employ 50 people. SolarInc buys electricity from the grid and has not furnaces. All they do is assemble components purchased elsewhere. This is a favored Dem industry (and the gave heavily to the Dems). The organization is awarded 100K CO2 credits and uses none. Its alternative is Badguy Motor Company. Their factory is 500K ft2, they employ 10,000 people. They have a furnace and an electrical plant that both burn coal. They currently release 500K CO2 units. They have been allocated the same 100K credits as SolarInc. They now have a choice, elliminate 400K of CO2 are buy credits from a bunch of SolarInc companies.

All of this over a problem that to this day HAS NOT BEEN SHOWN as a problem!

Will
What's ridiculous is you think hate crime legislation will voila wipe out discrimination. It won't. Furhtermore, good luck proving it in court. This is affirmative action for crimes.

To will
No person on ANY of these posts has ever said that they think it is OK to beat up anyone. What we have consistently said is that the punishment for these crimes should NOT be any difference.

If the punishment for assault and battery is 1 year in the local slammer, then let it be so. Don't make it 1 year in the slammer for one guy and 5 years in the slammer for a different guy.

I have also NEVER seen any of you people who support these kinds of laws offer a logical argument as to why they are needed.

On Rjligier
If everyone would just flag such posts as offensive they would quickly disappear. Do it right now. They are not posted to be read but simply to clutter up the blog and so disrupt the discussion among the adults.

will
Just what twisted thought makes you believe I OWE YOU A DAMNED THING because of YOUR sexual preferences?
Do you think you have a right to FORCE your Gay agenda upon everyone's children?
Your personal sexual preferences are exactly that, PERSONAL!
Keep them that way and you will not need any special privilages straight people do not have.

Marriage is a special traditional cerimony to unite a man & woman. It is THOUSANDS OF YEARS OLD!

If gays want some kind of cerimony like that then they can start their own tradition.
They have no right to change the sanctimony of our ancient traditions.

What you gays do in your bedroom is your business.
Please stop trying to make it any concern of mine.
Without gays provoking discrimination it would not exist.

To will
We do not need hate crime laws.

We do not need gay marriage laws, in fact government should get out of marriage altogether.

All laws we have on the books now are sufficient unto the day.

I see, Will
MyOpine says what you do is your business, observe your privacy and it won't be anybody else's business, stop trying to change society by forcing your agenda down the throat of everyone else like a tail wagging a dog...

and THAT'S homophobia???


Are you out of your freaking mind, or what?


will YOU ARE A LIAR!
For you to assume I would teach my child anything based on my refusal to agree with your demands for special privilage based on your sexual preferences is pure fiction.

If you think straight people owe you something extra because you are gay then I strongly disagree.

I believe you are entitled to the same protection under law as any other citizen.
When you DEMAND MORE than other citizens you are asking to be discriminated against because you single YOURSELF out.

You can whimper and cry all you want to but you will never convince me that you are entitled to any special legal protection other citizens do not have.

AND TAKE NOTE of the fact that you are attacking me for believing in EQUALITY for all Americans!

Here's what frosted me on hate crime law
Everyone remembers that gay young man who was beaten to death and "crucified" to a fence by a bunch of thugs. Well they caught those thugs, convicted them and obtained a death sentence. Problem is, the victim's mother pleaded to the judge to sentence the thugs to life in prison instead. What always frosted me was that as soon as the trial was over, that mother made a statement arguing for a hate crime law. Wha? Those thugs were sentenced to death! What exactly would a hate crime law have accomplished? The crime was awful enough without considering why it happened. It was awful that it happened at all for any reason. In that case, the law worked except for her preventing the death sentence their was nothing more to be done. "Twas brillig!"

Pasadena Phil
As of the last 3 decades we got more & more "Feel Good" legislation based upon emotion rather than logic.

We already have thousands of laws that conflict or are redundent.
If these are the laws of the people then they should be sorted through and cleaned out and put in some form the people who need to obey them can understand.

will
The discussion was not about gay rights.
The matter in question is a special "Hate Crimes" bill that would make the penalty for assaulting you more severe than the penalty for assaultine me, based purely on your sexual orientation THAT NO ONE HAS ANY WAY OF KNOWING BEFORE THE FACT!

Now can you see the reason for the joke about the armband?

To will
Yes, ya'll have all kinds of stupid laws in CA. I used to live in CA. I left in 1977 and I would rather not see the rest of the country "californized" as there would then be nowhere else to flee to.

BTW, if it wasn't for illegals crossing the border CA population would have been decreasing for the last 5 years.

To all
Wife wants her laptop back. I have to go waaaa!

Simplify this law
This silly law is a manifestation of the left's fetish for victimology -- the division of society between oppressors and the oppressed. The left want you to feel like a victim, by the way. After all, if you're suckered into believing you're a "victim" even before anything has happened, well, by golly, you're special, and those caring Democrats will protect you.

Will also pointed out the obsession to designate as many groups possible as needing special protection from hate crimes. It's all getting too confusing. It would make things much simpler if Congress just declared the "Terminally Stupid" the sole protected class. This would allow all Democrats anywhere and at any time the luxury of knowing that anyone who hurts them has committed a hate crime.

Simple, yet elegant.

For what it's worth
RJLigier has almost killed this thread. It takes forever to load now, and I've got a speedy connection. The troll is flagged as offensive.

Lex
I flagged RJLigier too.
I think he did it on purpose just to slow down the thread.
How long do you think it would take someone on DialUp to load this page?
And someone with an older machine with limited memory?
TH should throw that guy out of here.
That kind of crap slows hit$ and that costs TH $.

Surprise, Will, you already have
equal marriage rights. You can marry the woman of your choice, just like every other guy.

You may not marry someone of the same sex, nor may anyone else. You also may not marry your sister, first cousin, chihuahuha, or goldfish.

Just like everyone else.

That's what's called equality.


No more big government
Get ready for "titantic gigantic" government, or in other words "tyranny".

This bill needs to be vetoed by President Bush.

Like Will said, "Hate crimes are seven one-hundredths of 1 percent of all crimes".

I have already contacted my congressman and expressed my disappointment in his support for H.R. 1592.

What will these tyrants do next?

Will
Sorry, bud it doesn't work. I don't teach my kids to hate anyone, however what gives you the right to have your lifestyle shoved down my kid's throats in school? I don't hate you, but don't tell me it must be mainstreamed either. As for gay adoption, why? Kids are the greatest repudiation of your lifestyle, why would you want them? Kids are and only will be by products of hetrosexual unions, never ever gay unions.
As for equating what gays deal with that of blacks, doesn't work. Skin color is benign, passive. Homosexuality is a function of behavior. If you are white you could be gay an join the KKK, just keep your sexual preference to yourself, a black person could never do that just because of appearence.
Crime wise if you kill someone for whatever reason dead is dead, the looney tunes on the left just can't see this, they want enhanced punishment for the special people of society. I'm for craptial punishment, if you got them murderer and he/she is convicted without a doubt execute the crap out of them. Doesn't matter if the victim was straight, gay, necrophiliac, or some incestous piece of human debris. I guess its just payback to the community that helped them get in power.

Govt slave stepping stone
Just one more step by the control freaks to turn citizens into goverment slaves.

Will
Will it does sound mean and bitter. How do your figure I'm a bigot? I never said nor do I hate homosexuals, I don't agree with the lifestyle, there are other lifestyle chioces I don't agree with and don't think I should be forced or have my kids forced to accept them. I cannot bring my reliogious beliefs in schools but you however increasingly can, and on top of that some school systems have decided my wife and I don't need to know about it. Stalin lives! In your statement "turn my mind around" says agree with me or your mind isn't right. i use the example of Isaiah Washington, the black actor from Grey's Anatomy, he made a crude remark to/about a gay actor on the show, he was publicly casigated for it and eneded up having to go to "re-education" to get his mind right. Out and out discrimination is one thing, wrong every time, to punish some one for thought or even some speech is, well Stalinist. "You said something offensive to the protected class". I could be risking jail for this but again I ask, why would a gay couple want to adopt? Children are a repudiation of your lifestyle.

Will: What a great spokesman
you are for the gay community, calling everyone who doesn't agree with you foul names.

Yes, that's sure to win friends and influence people everywhere, swaying folks to your viewpoint in droves, I'm sure.

Then you wonder why individuals like you are scorned by people as they consider the issue.

Yep. Great job.


Will
I bet if you make disparing, insulting and hateful remarks about Christians, no one will be saying you need to go get your mind right. Do it while killing them and its just plain old murder, there will probably be some that will justify it "rotten christian, had it coming".

will
What tax do you pay for heterosexuals being married?
Are you aware that married people do pay EXTRA tax?
There is a tax penalty for being married.
I am not aware of any exclusive tax for gays.

H.R.1592 = Domestic terrorism in my opin
Congress ought to be ashamed of this legislation.

Who is the enemy of our way of life in America?

http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2007/tst050707.htm

Who voted for H.R. 1592

Bill in the Senate -- SR 1105
There is a similar bill in the Senate. We need to all contact our Senators about this and ask them to vote NO.

Thank you Liberty
I will be letting my senators know I hate it, and will hate speech them right out of office if they vote for it.



lies
Folks, I tried to have a rational conversation with Will about a week ago. Unfortunately, it was impossible - Will just twisted, distorted and lied to try to make his point. I understood alright, but it wasn't what he wanted me to understand. From now on I refuse to engage him.

Late
I know I'm late with these comments, but I just have to make them. Will, I certainly respect your right to be homosexual. I don't teach my kids to hate anyone, rather that they should respect the right of their fellow citizens to believe what they wish.

The problem is the government is in the "marriage" business. Marriage is a religious concept, not a legal concept. Thus, the government should ONLY have the ability to define what a "civil union" confers - with respect to rights, taxation, legal protections, etc. If government restricted itself to this definition and left "marriage" to the religous community, things would be a lot simpler.

With respect to HR 1592, it should be vetoed. No ifs, ands or buts. I don't advocate violence against any class of citizen, but this is just unconstitutional.

Sheila, Will...please
What is your definition of hating someone? And what is your definition of 'shoving a lifestyle down someone's throat?'

What you believe to be passive. You may not think that you have it in you because perhaps you haven't openly and to a gay person's face, said something actively hostile or mean.
You wouldn't teach your children to do violence.

But I will tell you something very important for you to know.

All you have to do is argue that a gay person is so by choice, can choose to not have sex (or some other unnatural thing no human being SHOULD be expected to do.
OR say that a gay person, being honest and giving you the benefit of openness and the truth of their orientation is so intolerant to you, you call it shoving it down one's throat.

Or have YOU ever thought of how much heterosexuality is forced on gay people. Have you EVER thought about the threats, the coercion, the sermons or physical violence that's created a wall of distrust of YOU?

Sheila, YOU were uncivil from the beginning by arguing over the origin of this orientation.

Disagreeing with someone over their identity and orientation is on it's face, a distinctly hostile and prejudiced thing to do. If not just stupid and rude.
I told you, gay people know YOU better than you know them.
You are doing at the ballot box, what you don't have the stones to do, to a gay person's face. We know it too.
We KNOW you, and what you're willing to do.
Your representatives in government, education and church think we can't see your own dirty underwear showing.
I bet you did'n't protest all the OTHER hate crimes legislation, did you?
I bet you won't now go to those same reps and encourage them to propose a bill to eliminate ALL hate crimes protection, will you?

People, you simply believe you're in a position to judge gay folks without a challenge and you can go on being ignorant of gay people without it coming back in some way to bite you.
As in having a gay child in your own family. And if you do, you WOULD be more dangerous to them, than the other way around. And you've been part of the mob that would make their lives far more difficult or dangerous than common sense, fairness would. And we certainly have no reason to believe you'd love that child. Because preaching to them about what a reprobate they are, how the world will hate them, or God will hate them...and you're not going to accept their 'behavior', no matter what they do.
That's not love. There is no amount of treating an innocent gay child like that that ever will be.
It's mental and verbal abuse.
So, you're not invested now, because as far as you know, there are no gay children in your life.

You still aren't safe. Not at all.
You're simply ignorant of the real deal. And your ignorance is YOUR bliss. And can't even cop to that. You know nothing about gay people. You think you do, but your ignorance would be hysterically funny, but for the real lives of gay folks can't wait for you to get it together. It's a dangerous world out there, not just inconvenient. Which you seem to think it's merely that.
The real world isn't about that.
Gay folks know who is screwing around with their lives, while at the same time, calling it something else.
Lying about them and demonizing them.
We KNOW who it is...and don't deny it's not what's going on.
It's infuriating when you do that. No wonder Will lost patience with you.
Hard to stay civil with the prejudiced.
As a very famous woman once said "you can't shake hands with a fist".
And YOU are always presenting a fist, wrapped in Scripture.
You're still stuck on arguing about orientation, and identity and simply making excuses for the holes you're digging for yourselves.


Whenever I see that. Straight people doing that...do you have ANY idea what you look like?
Seriously?


Hey, du?
Pffffffffffffttttttttttttttt.........


so twisted
Conservatives can twist the meaning of legislation like nobody's business.

If I'm about to snatch someone's purse, no one is going to change my mind.

If I'm about to pick someone at random on the street and beat the hell out of them, no one is going to change my mind.

Now, if I'm deciding whether to go out and hunt someone from a group I generalize and hate (to bring it closer to home for all of you, let's say a Muslim), and I just found out that if the jury discovers I hunted him down JUST because he's a Muslim, and the prosecution can prove that I did it because I hate Muslims, then now it's a federal crime and I'll go to jail for a lot longer than a normal assault; all of a sudden I might think twice. Not about hating them, because that's my right; just about going through with my violent plan.

This legislation is necessary because we have to show those in our society who hate that if it turns in to violence, they'll be locked away for a long, long time. We have to show that hatred turned in to crime is NOT acceptable, and that violent crimes motivated by hate are NOT THE SAME THING as other, random violent crimes.

The accusation that it gives special rights to any minority group is competely unfounded. Anyone who seriously supports this legislation will tell you that, obviously, when a minority person kills a majority person because they hate them, that will ALSO count as a Hate Crime. How does that make any one special? It just puts in to concrete the federal government's hatred of hate. And I, for one, think it's about time.

Gary wrote, mockingly:
"When shall we be told who to Love? When to Love? How to Love? Where to Love?"

Newsflash: Christians are constantly telling us Who and How to love. How can conservatives so consistently denounce my right to love my partner as "sinful", and yet be so passionately defending their right to Hate?!? Sickos, man. Sickos.

JeffRob: wrong, as usual
Felonious crimes are already prosecuted as a "crime against a group", which is why they're always prosecuted as "The People of the State of X against John Badguy", not "Jane Victim versus John Badguy".

A felonious crime is a crime against the *people of the state as a whole*.

So now you want special subsets of the group as a whole set aside as deserving of special consideration and special enhanced penalties against the perp based on their legally-recognized enhanced victim status. They are now going to be a group of people deserving of special and unusual consideration.

No matter how you slice it, or try to rationalize it, that's what it boils down to.

And that is in direct conflict with the established principle of "equality in the eyes of the law" that is the basis for our system of jurisprudence going back to Blackwell.


To Jeffrob
How is that if jail time will not deter a crook that more jail time will? Your argument does not hold water.

If you think that jail time is not adequate to deter crime, then by all means, let's increase the jail time for all guilty parties and not just those who pick out a special category of victim.

BrianR
What is it that conservatives have against "groups"? Don't we all belong to certain groups?

You wrote: "So now you want special subsets of the group as a whole set aside as deserving of special consideration and special enhanced penalties against the perp based on their legally-recognized enhanced victim status."

Did you not read the whole paragraph I wrote starting with "The accusation..."?

It doesn't matter WHO the perp is or WHO the victim is. No special groups, no special victim status. When the perp commits the crime because he HATES the victim for belonging to a certain group, NO MATTER WHAT THAT GROUP IS, it's a hate crime. Let me spell it out for you.

Straight guy hates gay people, kills a gay guy: hate crime.

Christian hates atheists, kills an atheist: hate crime.

A Muslim hates Christians, kills a Christian: hate crime.

A Democrat hates Republicans, kills a Republican: hate crime.

A college student hates old people, kills an old person: hate crime.

A black guy picks someone at random to rob because he doesn't have enough money to eat: not a hate crime.

A hispanic guy rapes a white chick at a party because he's psycho: not a hate crime.

An asian guy hates white people, rapes a white girl at a party while calling her "whitey": hate crime.

Is this really so difficult? Why so vigorously defend an individual's right to turn hatred into violence?

Besides, with all the new anger being directed at Christians lately, you'd think they would want to be extra protected from angry violence being directed at them. And last I checked, "religion" was listed as one of the criteria.

Excellent question
You: "What is it that conservatives have against "groups"? Don't we all belong to certain groups?"

No, we don't, not in the eyes of the law.

And that short answer says it all.




du
You, along with Will last week, completely ignored what I wrote and then lied about it. It's okay, but I choose to ignore you. Please remove the covering from your mirrors and seek therapy.

Sheila
Your name's not underlined (the blog link).

You might want to give the TH techies a heads up on that.


BrianR
Hi. I appreciate the heads-up, but I don't have a blog.

Wow, Sheila
There's actually another user on this site with the exact same username, "Sheila", that does have a blog.

I wonder how that happened?


BrianR
Me: "What is it that conservatives have against "groups"? Don't we all belong to certain groups?"

You: "No, we don't, not in the eyes of the law."


That is very interesting to me, actually. It explains a lot. I think it helps explain why conservatives love to talk about their goal of a "colorblind" society. Instant, blind equality for all, outside of any historical context. It's as if conservatives want to remember the legislation of the 20th Centruy that actually DID ensure equality (19th am., equal voting rights, Brown v. Board) as a sort of New Testament, fulfilling the laws of the Old, and exhaustive in its perfection.

Unfortunately, real life is a lot more complex than that, and true equality take a lot more than a set of just laws. In order for us to truly be equal, we must understand each other. And in order to understand each other, we must not forget about our differences, and become "colorblind". Completely ignoring the differences in each other may be a noble cause in light of centuries of discrimination, but it will only lead to more fear, more resentment, and more inequality.

We must teach our children ABOUT the differences in each other, and with a full understanding of those differences, why we're still equal. And why there's more work to be done.

BrianR
Wow, that is interesting. I don't understand how that happened, but it could lead to a lot of confusion.

Educate yourselves
Sorry, now my shoes are stuck to my soapbox:

It is only with a full understanding of each other and our nation's history that we can see the true necessity for each of the following, a list of things conservatives love to label "Socialism":

- Hate Crimes laws
- Fair Wage laws
- Fair Housing laws
- Affirmative Action
- Gay Pride parades
- The Congressional Black Caucus
- Black and Hispanic Student Union organizations
- Straight/Gay Alliances in schools

I can see why conservatives hate all of those things, because they highlight our differences and expose our discomfort. They lift up the oppressed as a GROUP, when the only lifting conservatives give value to is that of the individual by way of his bootstraps.

The world is too large for your willfull ignorance. And there remains too much hate in this world for us to legislate by it.

To Jeffrob
The Voting Rights Act and other Civil Rights Act do NOT apply equally. They single out individual States and individual voting districts.

JeffRob: Nope
You: "Instant, blind equality for all, outside of any historical context."

Yes, exactly, as it should be.

You: "In order for us to truly be equal, we must understand each other."

Nope, couldn't care less. You leave me alone, and I'll do you the same favor.

You: "I can see why conservatives hate all of those things, because they highlight our differences and expose our discomfort"

No, because they create special sub-groups, all with their own claim as to why they should get special treatment and considerations. It fractionalizes and shatters societal wholes in favor of special-interest subsets. They claim special treatment in the eyes of the law.



The song remains the same...
Yet another thread where the ignorant (etc.) make the bill out to be something that it isn't. As I've said in other columns;

National origin protection also means that if "violent criminals" were to pick their victims because we're Americans, they get 10 more years. We can also use it against terrorists and other anti-Americans too.

Again, it's also Americans, straights, whites and Christians.

BrianR
You have completely brushed off all consideration of tolerance and understanding.

You: "You leave me alone, and I'll do you the same favor."

It sounds happy enough, but the problem comes when someone demands that you tolerate something that you have no understanding of. It instantly becomes Us vs. Them. Like, for instance, if this year's Gay Pride parade wanted to come down the street in front of your house; or if a new Mosque was being built next door to your kid's elementary school; or if your 16 year old son declares his avowed atheism.

Would you be all "leave me alone, and I'll do you the same favor" then? You wouldn't have taken the energy to educate yourself on the history, struggles or goals of Gay folks, Muslims, or Atheists, because you "couldn't care less", and now you're faced with a dilemma with nothing to stand on but your Traditional, hard-headed, ignorant views.

And that leads to fear; and that leads to hate.

"We hate each other because we fear each other, and we fear each other because we're ignorant, and we're ignorant because we're separated."- MLK Jr.

Not being separated does NOT mean just ignoring everyone else. It means truly understanding who your fellow Americans are, what they go through, what they've been through. Only then can we truly be equal and free.

Educate yourselves!

JeffRob: I'm not interested in tolerance
I care about what's legal.

I also don't care about what people do in the privacy of their homes and bedrooms, so tolerance doesn't come into play.

Tolerance implies making a judgement, and I never judge people based on what they ARE, only what they DO.

Now, if you're talking about in-your-face behavior like the Doo-Dah Parade, and stuff like that, my opinion is this: It's legal, so they can do it. I don't have to like it or tolerate it, and I don't. I avoid downtown LA like the plague when it's going on. I don't support anyone taking any already-illegal actions against the participants, and if anyone does I think they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the EXISTING law.

The same applies to all the other groups you named.

I think the Muslim community in this country has been very complicit in the actions of terrorist groups in this country, both overtly in their mosques, and tacitly by their refusal to speak up in condemnation. At the same time, I don't support the idea of taking action against a group because of the actions of individuals from within that group.

However, I'm not interested in tolerating or understanding their deplorable behavior.

Further, JR
I'm half Armenian. About 1.5 million Armenians were slaughtered by the Tuks in WW1.

Further, I spent the majority of my pre-college life as an American dependant in the Far East and Middle East. I'm very aware of what it's like to be a minority.

We didn't demand special rights and priviledges, or legal protections, living in those countries. We found it incumbent upon ourselves to abide by the local laws and customs. If we broke the law, we were subject to exactly the same penalties as anyone else, and as victims enjoyed no special protections nor were there enhanced penalties on anyone who committed a crime against us.


BrianR
"I'm not interested in tolerance"

I knew that from other columns.


"I care about what's legal."

The original 1968 hate law covered four groups and that's been held up as legal. This, if signed into law, will also hold up as legal, imo, despite so many people desperately trying to make this bill out to be something it's not.

It's going to pass the senate so the only real question is whether or not President Bush will veto it. When it came to stem cell and the last to Iraq bills, President Bush was clear that he'd definitely veto those. Last I heard, a veto of this bill was only "likely." What will actually happen? We'll have to wait and see.

As a life-long Republican, I've asked my reps to support it.

will
"We all appreciate your dissent on this issue (this IS a democracy) but , of course, none of us has to necessarily "tolerate" YOUR behaviour as expressed on these posts."

Actually, *this* is a Republic which prevents the majority from oppressing the opinion of the minority. Thank God.


JeffRob
The flaw in your argument is the assumption that there is only one alternative to educating yourself on the backgrounds and motivations of others: some form of coercive, destructive hatred.

This is not true at all. The conservative idea is that a category of basic, courteous treatment exists that is appropriate for everyone, regardless of how well or how little you understand him.

We don't, any of us, have it in us to fully understand everyone else. But for the most part, we can maintain public order, and a general goodwill, without going into group therapy with every religious, ethnic, or sexual-choice faction we didn't, personally, grow up in.

It is possible to be tolerant without approving. That's actually the very definition of tolerance; if you approved of everything, it wouldn't be tolerance you were exercising.

Baseline acceptable behavior is specifically expected to EXCLUDE beating up those you don't approve of. That's why people who perpetrate such crimes are prosecuted. It's not OK, in a civil sense, to start beating up ANYONE who didn't attack you first.

The state's interest is in public order, not what goes on inside people's heads. Those of us who want to know "others" on a more personal level -- for example, to live among them and exemplify the love of Jesus -- are free to do so. And millions do. But that is not the business of government.

In fact, government is destructive when it intervenes in such things. Government's only tool is force: it routinely uses a jackhammer to swat flies. The force of government can't make anyone approve of you; it can only entrench resentments among the people, by favoring some over others, and in the end make everyone miserable.

Patriot, Will
Patriot: That's fine, and certainly your right. I encourage you to use it, and contact your representative.

As to holding up as legal, Dred Scott held up as legal, too, for a long time. Fortunately, SCOTUS came to its senses with Brown v. Board of Education. So I guess we'll see.

Will: I neither need nor care about your tolerance. I'm not some politician running for office. I can freely state my opinion and debate the issues without care for people's opinions of me, as can you, incidentally. The great thing about this republic, as Patriot rightfully pointed out.



Dyerje vs. Brian R.
Dy: "It is possible to be tolerant without approving."

Me: Fine. Great.

B.R.: "I'm not interested in tolerance."


Oh, crap. This is starting to get messy. In the meantime, what should I tell non-Christian non-heterosexual Americans who wonder how the GOP feels about them? Are they accepted, tolerated, or trash?

While you guys are figuring it out, I'll keep busy educating myself on the intricacies of the conservative mind, so I can teach my kids why we should tolerate AND accept all of you, even though your worldview is so backwards and ignorant.

BrianR
"As to holding up as legal, Dred Scott held up as legal, too, for a long time. Fortunately, SCOTUS came to its senses with Brown v. Board of Education. So I guess we'll see."

Yes, laws can be changed, wrongs righted, there is a process. I can think of several SCOTUS decisions that should be reversed. The more recent case against the EPA, Kilo and/or Raich, for example.

Like Dred Scott was fixed, we can also add more groups, like religion and national origin. :D

Hope that helps...

No, JeffRob, tell them
their sexuality isn't an issue, and is nobody's business, unless they themselves make it so.

It really is that simple.

I've had friends in my life that were gay, in some cases I didn't know they were gay until they later told me, and I never cared one way or the other. One of my favorite talk show hosts, Al Rantell, is gay. So what? Their sexuality is not my concern.

Why should any of this matter?

Look, there are always going to be bigots of one kind or another among us, and no law in the world is ever going to change that. It's part of the human condition. It's a symptom of ignorance. But prejudice will never go completely away.

That's simply the way things are. Special laws that encourage divisions are defintely not the answer. The answer is the changing of societal mores and education that eradicate the problem as much as possible at its source; treat the disease, don't give an aspirin for the symptoms.






Patriot: Hahaha!
Yeah, heh heh.

That was pretty good.

Well, that's the great thing about this country: we all get our say if we want it!




BrianR
"Well, that's the great thing about this country: we all get our say if we want it!"

Amen! :D

Don't forget
The statue of the goddess Themis -- Lady Justice -- is blindfolded. She's supposed to be blind to the nature and identity of the person standing before her, and dispense equal justice for all regardless of identity or station in life.


Sheila, you can
add a few other names to your list now, yes?
You are completely correct. The reason posters such as these continue to insist that you (or I) "do not understand" is because we will not agree with them. That's the whole issue. Well, that in addition to not agreeing that
homosexuality is = to heterosexuality.

Will: well, you obviously
have no understanding at all of anything I wrote, but so be it.


BrianR
I love the equal justice canard that people try to imply regarding this bill.

As I've said before, if it only protected "whites" you'd have a point but it doesn't protect "whites" without also protecting "blacks" etc. but the argument that because it protects "whites" that it must also protect "redheads" or that because it protects "religion" that it must also protect "nascar fans" is specious.


shouldbeashamed
"The reason posters such as these continue to insist that you (or I) "do not understand" is because we will not agree with them."

Does that include when BrianR said "Will: well, you obviously have no understanding at all of anything I wrote, but so be it" or does that only apply when they don't agree with YOU?

Couldn't the reason that some people say "you don't understand" is because they don't believe that you actually understand?

Patriot: Sorry, and actually kinda funny
to say, but I really DIDN'T understand your last post to me.


BrianR
I said that the bill provides equal justice under the law and provided examples. ;)

Hope that helps...

Ah, okay
Well, on that we disagree, as again if you want to enhance the penalty for a crime or make it stiffer -- say for attempted murder -- then change the statute for attempted murder, don't say that attempted murder is even WORSE if the guy calls you a name while he's beating you over the head with a piece of pipe.

That doesn't strike you as at all ludicrous?


As another poster said, this column
has nothing to do with the specific subject of homosexuality, but somehow pretty much every TH column on this proposed legislation turns into that discussion (which usually results in posts that go right into the toilet as emotion completely overrides common sense.)As others have said, the law is completely unnecessary and unconstitutional. That is all that matters.

another lie from Will...
since I never once mentioned either the bible or religion.

BrianR
"...don't say that attempted murder is even WORSE if the guy calls you a name while he's beating you over the head with a piece of pipe."

If some violent criminal picked his target BECAUSE the victim was Christian, American, white, straight, etc. I say it IS worse than somebody who got in a drunken bar fight.



"That doesn't strike you as at all ludicrous?"

Not at all. If somebody targets violence based on religion, race, national origin, etc, they deserve the extra 10 years.



Patriot, question
I distinctly remember you saying you have a college-aged nephew who is straight. You say you love him, but if this is made law and he gets attacked his attacker will not be punished as harshly as someone who attacks you, a gay man. This is not conjecture, this was proven in the Mary Stachowicz case.

Why wouldn't you want your nephew's attacker punished as harshly as possible? Is your nephew not worth it?

Sheila
"I distinctly remember you saying you have a college-aged nephew who is straight."

No, you are wrong, that wasn't me.


"You say you love him, but if this is made law and he gets attacked his attacker will not be punished as harshly as someone who attacks you, a gay man. "

I'm not gay nor a liberal, either. Why would you assume that I am? Mistaken identity, I hope. ;)


"Why wouldn't you want your nephew's attacker punished as harshly as possible? Is your nephew not worth it?"

Your hypothetical aside, if "whoever's nephew" was attacked, by gays, because he was straight, that'd be equally a hate crime. So, if you're going to make stuff up, at least compare apples to apples.


Patriot
I apologize, I got you confused with Will. I try not to make mistakes, but they happen. When I do, I try to correct them as soon as possible.

For anyone else interested, here is the link from the Barber column:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/MattBarber/2007/05/03/fake_anti-%e2%80%9cgay%e2%80%9d_%e2%80%9chate_crimes%e2%80%9d_keep_piling_up?page=full&comments=true

It's long, almost 400 posts.

Sheila
Yes, it's the same on almost all of Matt's columns, there are others too. The problem with most, is they try to make this bill out to be something it isn't.


Bottomline- It's UnConstitutional
Not only is it UnConstitutional, it's anti- American.

Every Congressperson who voted Yes for HR 1592, has broken the law.

When are we going to hold our representatives responsible, and when are we going to make sure they uphold the oath they take before they are sworn into office.

davy c rockett
I'm with you, brother.

davy
"Not only is it UnConstitutional, it's anti- American."

Nonsense, as I've already said, it's pro-American. National origin protection also means that if "violent criminals" were to pick their victims because we're Americans, they get 10 more years. We can also use it against terrorists and other anti-Americans too. If President Bush signs it, it'll be upheld as constitutional too.


Liberty:
"I'm with you, brother."

You're also with Ron "cut and run" Paul. :D

Good luck...


Patriot
Actually, they try to make it out to be exactly what it will be. Again, look at the Mary Stachowicz murder. She was killed simply for the reason that she was a Christian and told him she disapproved of his homosexuality. It was deemed not to be a hate crime.

In the Matthew Shepard murder he was killed by his drug dealer. Yes, I know that Shepard's friends thought his homosexuality was the reason. It was deemed to be a hate crime; in fact, this very bill bears his name.

Why is the one a hate crime but not the other? Why is one dead person less worthy than the other? Why would this not be an unequal application of hate crimes enhancement?

In the end, of course, the law wasn't necessary - each killer received the maximum sentence allowed. That's as it should be.

Sheila
"Actually, they try to make it out to be exactly what it will be."

No, they try to pretend that it's something it's not.


"Why is the one a hate crime but not the other?"
"Why would this not be an unequal application of hate crimes enhancement?"

Circumstances of the case. Not all crimes are hate crimes as defined by this bill.



"Why is one dead person less worthy than the other?

You could try to use that against the various degrees of homicide that already exist but it's a canard.


"In the end, of course, the law wasn't necessary - each killer received the maximum sentence allowed."

Sometimes they don't get the max and with this bill, they get 10 more.


Bush being pressured to sign Hate Crime
legislation.

He told us he would veto this legislation, but now it seems he is getting quite a bit of pressure from the ADL to sign it.

So, if you do not want this unconstitutional legislation signed into law, please send a message to President Bush asking him to veto it.

Mailing Address

The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20500

Phone Numbers

Comments: 202-456-1111
Switchboard: 202-456-1414
FAX: 202-456-2461

Liberty
Yes, I already said that I've contacted my reps and asked them all to support this bill, including President Bush, who I voted for twice. He never said he'd veto it, a spokesperson said it was "likely."

Are you going to ask him to "cut and run" too? ;)

Patriot
The legislation is unconstitutional. Period. End of story.

Patriot
You are mistakenly equating the decision to attack Iraq with defending our country.

Please explain to me how deposing the sworn enemy of Al Qaeda, helped us to win over Al Qaeda?


Patriot: You miss me?
I had to do some errands.

Well, as I said, and saw you responded, this one we simply won't agree on.

Let's settle it right now: I'm right and you're wrong!

LOL

By the way, I also don't believe in the laws that hand out extra penalties for killing cops, on the same basis.


Patriot
Your name is about as patriotic as the Patriot act. And that is not a compliment.

You don't seem to care that the Hate Crime legislation is UNCONSTITUTIONAL. How DARE you call yourself a patriot!

Liberty
"The legislation is unconstitutional. Period. End of story."

Nonsense. End of story. ;)


"Please explain to me how deposing the sworn enemy of Al Qaeda, helped us to win over Al Qaeda?"

Because, only among the narrow minded is the war on terror limited to alqueda. Saddam did support terror and both Saddam and alqueda were/are Sunni. Either way, Saddam is dead now, he won't be supporting terror in the future. :D



"Your name is about as patriotic as the Patriot act. And that is not a compliment."

Oh no, insulted by a Ron "cut and run" Paul supporting coward. What will I do? :D



BrianR:
"Let's settle it right now: I'm right and you're wrong!"

Yeah you can keep saying it but that doesn't make it so. This bill isn't what some people claim. We'll see what happens when the President signs it. ;)


Will: If I may
Not speaking for Liberty, but myself, since once again you asked a great question.

Speaking for me, marriage is rightfully a state issue, barring some Constitutional amendment, and I think it's not an issue worth amending the Constitution over.

That having been said, in jurisdictions that decline to allow same-sex marriages, gays really aren't losing anything anyway, other than the tax penalty on married couples.

All the other "joys" of marriage can be secured for both partners through the mechanism of contractual agreements, living wills, trusts, and other legal instruments and methods.

That's why this is another issue that's blown way out of proportion, just like abortion.

Anyway, for what it's worth, there's my 2 cents.


FYI
For those of you who do not understand the hate crime concept, as evidenced by questions like "aren't all crimes hate crimes?" and "isn't this thought policing?", allow me to explain:

"Hate crimes" are a certain type of crime involving intimidation. In other words, if someone stood outside of your local church and beat up everyone who came out of it, that would be, essentially, more than just a simple act of violence, but an act of violence that's intended to send a MESSAGE. The message being, "Your kind are not welcome here."

As far as how the laws will actually be written and enforced, that's a different story, but that is the idea.

Hope this helps!

Uh, Patriot...
See that "LOL" under the line you quoted?

That signifies a bit of "humor", known in some circles as a "joke". "Humor" is defined as a pleasant sensation caused by outside stimuli such as "jokes" which sometimes cause an uncontrolled spasmic rhythm to the breathing and chest contractions, accompanied by vocal emanations and ricti to the facial muscles. This condition is sometimes known as "laughter".

Just thought I'd help you out there.


Oneway: So, it's like Western Union?
Sending messages and all?

I get that right?


BrianR
"See that "LOL" under the line you quoted?

That signifies a bit of "humor", known in some circles as a "joke". "Humor" is defined as a pleasant sensation caused by outside stimuli such as "jokes" which sometimes cause an uncontrolled spasmic rhythm to the breathing and chest contractions, accompanied by vocal emanations and ricti to the facial muscles. This condition is sometimes known as "laughter"."


See that ";)" "wink" after my reply? That, too, signifies humor. :D

Hope that helps...


Patriot, Will: LOL, guys
Will: No, this is no change. Maybe in technique, but the principles are the same. Maybe it is the technique. I have to think about that. Maybe I really haven't been making myself as clear as I thought I was. Hmmm....

Patriot: Yeah, actually, I got it, but I couldn't help myself. The devil made me do it!


Both: Look, guys, I don't know about you, but the reason I'm here is to enjoy myself in good conversation and debate with people who are going to stimulate, interest, and challenge me. The minute it gets away from that, it's not worth doing. The idea is to have fun and enjoy yourself. Yeah, these are weighty issues, but how many minds can we realistically expect to change, any of us?

I mean, c'mon, it's only the internet, for Pete's sakes! It's not like we're standing in the floor of the Senate.


BrianR
"I mean, c'mon, it's only the internet, for Pete's sakes! It's not like we're standing in the floor of the Senate."

Exactly why it's OK to sling a little mud. :D

Um, self correction
You don't stand "in" the floor, you stand "on" the floor.

Yikes!


Patriot: Heh heh heh
Gotta admit, I don't mind a good jab from time to time myself.


will
"Liberty was wrong to assail your moniker just because he disagrees with you (you are not "anti-american" nor "un-patriotic" to either agree or disagree with this bill...it's simply not the end of the world)."

You don't need to make excuses for him. I'm secure enough in my positions and my record of service to not worry about what he thinks about my name. ;)


patriot
What other parts of the Constitution would you like to just cancel out?

BrianR
"Gotta admit, I don't mind a good jab from time to time myself."

Or a thai-kwan-leap style "boot to the head."

Patriot
and I am confident in mine. Anyone who thinks that it is ok to overthrow any part of the Constitution is no patriot.

Hey!
I was just having a smoke in my backyard, and saw a hawk kill one of the local rabbit population, cottontail variety.

Was that a hate crime?

or not.......?

Further, I can see through my window that a bunch of crows, black variety, are horning in on the feast.

Hate crime?

Or not.......?


Will: LOL
Her's my version:

:-)

:-D

;-)



See, my guys have NOSES!


will
"For many posts I thought ;) instead of :) was a TYPO."

Now you know and FYI, being smiley-challenged is not a protected as a hate crime either.


BrianR:
"Was that a hate crime?"

Rabbits aren't covered.

See what I mean about people trying to make it into something it isn't? ;)



Liberty:
"Anyone who thinks that it is ok to overthrow any part of the Constitution is no patriot."

Anyone that believes supporters of this bill are doing that is a retard.

Patriot: Rabbits aren't covered?
What??

They must be the white Christian conservative male smoking SUV-driving gun-owning politically-incorrect okay-to-be-picked-on losers of the animal world, then.

Bummer for them!


Patriot
"Circumstances of the case. Not all crimes are hate crimes as defined by this bill."

That's my point exactly. Shepard was gay, killed by a straight/bi guy - hate crime.

Stachowicz was straight/Christian, killed by a gay guy - not a hate crime.

Stachowicz's killer actually said he killed her because of her Christianity, yet no hate crime. Seriously, how can you argue there is no unequal application?






Sheila
"Stachowicz's killer actually said he killed her because of her Christianity, yet no hate crime. Seriously, how can you argue there is no unequal application?"

Same state? I don't know the other case. This bill is still a bill, not law, religion isn't protected yet. It depends on the state laws. Which state laws protect religion now?


Will
Look Will. Hate Crime legislation is unconstitutional. If you know that and yet still support it, that does not exactly equate to patriotism. If you want to change the Constitution, there is a process to do that. You can't just pass unconstitutional laws. The Constitution is the law of the land. What about that do you not understand?


BrianR
"Rabbits aren't covered?
What??"

Exactly, but don't get PETA worked up, dagnabbit. Just because we protect religion doesn't mean we have to protect rodents.



will:
"BTW, Patriot: I am not "standing up" for you here. Wrong is wrong when it comes to attack modes & smear campaigns are because you (Liberty) can't arrive at your side of the argument honestly."

I said "making excuses for" but like i said, he can say anything, it doesn't make him right. I know better and that's all that matters to me.



Damn, Patriot
I never thought I'd see the day when PETA and I would team up, but you've given me an idea......

Liberty
"Hate Crime legislation is unconstitutional. If you know that and yet still support it, that does not exactly equate to patriotism. If you want to change the Constitution, there is a process to do that. You can't just pass unconstitutional laws. The Constitution is the law of the land. What about that do you not understand?"

The first part is wrong and since your dislike of the bill is based on a false premise, it's easy to dismiss. It will hold up as constitutional, if it's signed. I've asked my reps to support it.

BrianR
"I never thought I'd see the day when PETA and I would team up, but you've given me an idea......"

Which one? I belong to People for the Eating of Tasty Animals, myself.


Yeah, Patriot, those damned crows
ate up my rabbit stew!


BrianR
"Yeah, Patriot, those damned crows
ate up my rabbit stew!"

If you're really hungry, crows can make a fair stew, too. The best thing about my PETA is we have better BBQs. :D


Will: Again we part company
SCOTUS has made many mistakes, past and present.

Dred Scott was the law of the land for many years until revisited in Brown v. Board of Education.

They upheld McCain-Feingold.

They upheld Roe.

They upheld Kelo.


Just because SCOTUS has committed one of its usual errors doesn't mean a law is RIGHT or Constitutional, though it may be currently legal.

There are other areas where we've unfortunately slipped away from Constitutionality:

Where's the authority for Social Security? Or Medicare? Drugs for Seniors? No Child Left Behind? Fairness Doctrine? Gun control? Many others?

Further, how come the Federal Government isn't doing its Constitutionally mandated duty of securing our borders? And without making some Faustian deal of granting a clearly illegal amnesty to the invaders, illegal aliens?

So that's a very weak argument, IMO, as the government is failing on so many fronts.




Will! Put down that burger at once!
Or I'll be forced to take immediate action!

(which action to be determined at a later time)


will
"Animals have rights too!"

According to my PETA, Animals have the right to salt and/or pepper.


BrianR:
"Just because SCOTUS has committed one of its usual errors doesn't mean a law is RIGHT or Constitutional, though it may be currently legal."

Only half right. Until reversed, they are constitutional. While I agree that there are cases that I believe should be reversed, precedent is precedent and has to be given weight.


"Will! Put down that burger at once!
Or I'll be forced to take immediate action!"

STOP or I'll type STOP again!! :D

Will
The 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution guarantees "equal protection under the law" for all citizens, regardless of their sexual preference. This legislation flies in the face of the 14th Amendment, creating a two-tier justice system made up of first-class victims such as homosexuals and second-class victims such as the elderly, children, pregnant women, the homeless and others who choose not to engage in homosexual behavior.

Will, I understand why you want this legislation and I am empathetic. However, this isn't the way to get what you're wanting done. What it does do is hand more control over to the federal government. Every time we allow them to overstep the Constitution, the less you and I have control over our own lives.

Liberty
"The 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution guarantees "equal protection under the law" for all citizens, regardless of their sexual preference. This legislation flies in the face of the 14th Amendment, creating a two-tier justice system made up of first-class victims such as homosexuals and second-class victims such as the elderly, children, pregnant women, the homeless and others who choose not to engage in homosexual behavior."

Nonsense, there's the false premise. As I keep saying, if it only protected "gays" you'd have a point but it doesn't protect "gays" without also protecting "straights" but the argument that because it protects "sexual orientation" that it must also protect "redheads" or that because it protects "religion" that it must also protect "rabbits" is completely specious. That's why it'll hold up as constitutional. It's just not what some people try to make it out to be.

Good luck...


Patriot
It's un-Constitutional in my opinion because it blatanly interferes with Constitutional(God-given) Right to freedom of speech.

From my understanding, if you were homosexual and I called you a f*ggot, I would be in criminal trouble under this bill H.R. 1592.

Patriot: Yep, you're right
You: "Only half right. Until reversed, they are constitutional. While I agree that there are cases that I believe should be reversed, precedent is precedent and has to be given weight."

No doubt, and no argument.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to reverse bad law, AND try to keep new bad law from rearing its ugly head.

I mean, really, who'da thunk Kelo would stand scrutiny? Or McCain-Feingold, for Pete's sakes?

And that's one both the left and the right opposed. The only time in memory, I think, where the NRA and ACLU stood on the same side of the room on an issue.




Authority in America
If anybody believes there is justice for all in America, or were not slowly becoming a third world country still stuck in the stone age, or the blind leading the seeing, then you got to check this out.

http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/05/14/cop-eats-marijuana-blames-wife/

This authority figure is the poster boy for "big brother government in America nowadays" in my opinion.

God help us all.

davy c rockett
"It's un-Constitutional in my opinion because it blatanly interferes with Constitutional(God-given) Right to freedom of speech."

No, it doesn't.


"From my understanding, if you were homosexual and I called you a *, I would be in criminal trouble under this bill H.R. 1592."

Then you never read it or failed to understand it because that's wrong. You'll never be arrested for a hate crime just for saying or writing something. This bill is an enhancement for certain violent crimes. Again, another case of somebody trying to make this bill something it's not.


BrianR
"I mean, really, who'da thunk Kelo would stand scrutiny? Or McCain-Feingold, for Pete's sakes?

And that's one both the left and the right opposed. The only time in memory, I think, where the NRA and ACLU stood on the same side of the room on an issue."

This is about the hate crime bill and I think it'll make for good law. :D

Patriot: :-D
See the smiley face in the header?

Guess we'll have to continue disagreeing on this.

Unless I persuaded you to see "The Light"?

(Pssssst. I'm right, you're wrong!)

LOL

:-)

:-D

;-)



Just covering my bases there.





BrianR
"Just covering my bases there."

Desperately exaggerating trying to make the bill something that it isn't. ;)

Logic to the rescue
Will,

There are no such thing as 'gay children'. There are children, perhaps, who need mental therapy. Perhaps if they got said therapy as children they would not become homosexuals as adults.

The purpose of the legislation is A) to set precedent for future thought-control laws and B) establish a mental / emotional affliction as a separate race / sex. Imagine if diabetics petitioned for special consideration for their affliction.

The flaw in all of this is the "group membership" argument. Someone said that a hate crime involved intimidation.
Please make up your mind; was it poetry when the Founding Fathers said that all men are created equal, or was it *literal* truth? If all men are equal, whose fault is it if one can intimidate another? If one is of a meek spirit and the other aggressive, they are not equal. It is INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY that is threatened here.
In fact, the previous examples of "hate crime" involving intimidation involved *groups* perpetrating the intimidation, be it the nazis, the communists, or the KKK. So, in my opinion, any "hate crime" legislation should be limited to and focused on groups (doesn't RICO cover this?)

In high school, I was bullied, hit,insulted, death threats in my locker. No protections for me, as I was a WASP. It stopped when I fought back and let it be known attacking me would end in somebody being dead. Maybe better "hate crime" legislation would be to grant amnesty to people who use excessive or even deadly force in their own defense when the crime was perpetrated upon them for purposes of "intimidation", and perpetrated by a group.

I support slavery; some people deserve, even beg to be slaves. I point as evidence those who apologize to Islam, and those who want to grant ever more power over our individual lives to the state.
*I also support slavery because everyone in modern America must oppose slavery or be slandered as some kind of "bad person". Along with a whole host of other politically incorrect opinions. *

The country was far better, socially, in 1787 than it was in 2007, in spite of all the prejudices and hatreds they didn't legislate against.

jdw
"The purpose of the legislation is A) to set precedent for future thought-control laws and B) establish a mental / emotional affliction as a separate race / sex. "

What size tin-foil hat do you wear?


"I support slavery; some people deserve, even beg to be slaves. "

Oh my, and some people claim bigots don't exist on TH. :D


So much for logic. :(


Patriot: *sigh*
Feel you just gotta get in the last word, in spite of olive branches?

Sad, man, sad.

But go ahead and say whatever you want. I promise I won't respond. You are guaranteed the last word.

I just wish these conversations could be something other than a simple "Gotcha!" game.


BrianR
"Feel you just gotta get in the last word, in spite of olive branches?"

I'm here to share my opinion and entertain myself, you don't have to agree nor like it.



"I just wish these conversations could be something other than a simple "Gotcha!" game."

They can, as soon as your side comes to their senses instead of exaggerating and trying to make this bill into something it's not. People have tried to argue it's unconstitutional based on both the 14th and the 1st, which have both been shot down. I'm trying to be reasonable but reality is on my side. ;)


Good luck...

Patriot: Well, congrats, you got me
In spite of what I wrote in my last post, you have actually managed to persuade me that a civil conversation with the folks on your side of the aisle is, in fact, impossible.

Your response to my "agree to disagree" follows,

You: "I'm here to share my opinion and entertain myself, you don't have to agree nor like it... as soon as your side comes to their senses instead of exaggerating and trying to make this bill into something it's not."



I've come to the conclusion that Liberty (the poster's name) is in fact correct in his assertation that any attempt to talk reasonabland affably is a waste of time.

Okay, so be it.

You're a child in your approach to debate, akin to the rantings of a young and immature adolescent. You pay no attention to things said to you if they don't fit your pre-conceived notions, and your mind's about as open as a rusted hinge. I truly regret being fooled into treating you and discussing with you issues on an adult level, because you've proven yourself unsuited to the challenge.

I think we're done her for today.


Will: None of my post to Patriot
applies to you at this point.

You've been carrying on a decent discussion to now.

Wnated to make that clear.


BrianR
"agree to disagree"
"you don't have to agree"

Yeah, too much for you to grasp.


"You're a child in your approach to debate, akin to the rantings of a young and immature adolescent."

Except that I explained why the 1st and/or 14th arguments are based on a false premise and all you have is the emotional, "I don't like gay people" argument. You want me to agree but I don't, sorry, get over it.



"I think we're done her for today."

Are you sure? Because you already said once, "But go ahead and say whatever you want. I promise I won't respond. You are guaranteed the last word."

I see honesty isn't your strong suit but did you really think such a pathetic attempt to shut me up like "last word" amateur reverse psychology would work with me? Once again, your own words give you away.



will:
"...you are presenting the precise arguments that Patriot has deconstructed already many times over."

On multiple columns. It's too easy to beat delusion and lies with fact and reason.

Patriot: on What People Claim
Patriot, I've seen you mention numerous times that the bill is not what people claim, and that everyone is against what the bill is not.

From what I've seen, what people claim is that the bill adds "gayness" to the list of "protected victims". Specifically, as written in the bill, "gender, sexual orientation, gender identity".

Or, whatever the local jurisdiction chooses to define as a "hate crime."

Now -- maybe you read things differently from me --

-- but the way I read it as what everyone is saying is exactly what IS in the bill. Current hate crime legislation is limited to "race, color, religion, national origin," and the bill adds "gender, sexual orientation, gender identity".

Have I said anything materially incorrect so far?

So, basically, what HR 1592 does is take a bad idea and make it include more people. At least this is the argument that *I* read.

SO MY QUESTION IS - - -

What is it that people are "against" with this bill that you say "is not what this bill is"? As near as I can tell, from having actually *read the text* of HR 1592, is that people's impressions of the bill are essentially correct.

Unca Alby
"From what I've seen, what people claim is that the bill adds "gayness" to the list of "protected victims". Specifically, as written in the bill, "gender, sexual orientation, gender identity"."

That's the false premise and we've discussed this in another column before too so I've already dealt with this before. If it only protected "gays" without protecting "straights" then you'd have a claim under the 14th but it does not, despite the claims.


"but the way I read it as what everyone is saying is exactly what IS in the bill."

No, others have claimed that it's a "thought crime" bill, that people will be arrested based on something they said or wrote when that's not what the bill is about.



Patriot, you were right once again
I did check back to see if you were going to be a gentleman after all.

Needless to say, the answer was no.

Also needless to say, if we meet in the future, which we will, I'll certainly treat you from this point forward like the a--hole I now think you are.

Nothing for you to say about my opinion of you. You've simply earned it, schmuck.




Lunatic Fringe
Patriot and other who deny Constitutionl rule of Law are the lunatic fringe of our country and ought to be seen as the real terrorist to our nation.

They would be consider the what Benjiman Franklin and I might add one of the smartest forefathers of our history as the people who neither deserve liberty nor security because they subvert the Constitution for the sake of a false security.

"Fort Dix Six" proves that our borders are still not secure, yet changing course in Iraq is somehow "cutting and running". Iraq is leaving us vunerable at home because of the waste and billions of dollars that is being pumped into this failed nation building liberal neo con project from the neo-con liberals in the Republican Party, like Patriot.

BrianR
"Patriot, you were right once again"

I'm right about you too. :D


"Needless to say, the answer was no."

Correct, I still don't agree with you. :D


If you keep evading the word-filter in juvenile fits of anger because you've been slapped around like a redheaded stepchild, we won't have to worry about meeting, TH doesn't like that. :D


davy c rockett
"liberal neo con project from the neo-con liberals in the Republican Party, like Patriot."


HAHAHA, "neo-conservative liberals." Not only is your tin-foil hat on too tight you're a mental midget too. :D

Too funny...

Will
About Bush. I think you know by now that he isn't my favorite guy, because he stomps all over the Constitution. And I am putting that lightly.

We have to try to stop anyone and everyone who does that. I am doing my best. But, to add yet another law that does the same is not the answer. Surely, you see that. As bad as some things are, the Constitution is the only thing that has been saving our bacon from government TOTALLY getting out of control.

Patriot -- Beside the Point
I am not saying that the bill does NOT protect straights from hate-filled gays. That's entirely beside the point.

quoth Patriot: "No, others have claimed that it's a "thought crime" bill, that people will be arrested based on something they said or wrote when that's not what the bill is about."

Ok. I don't know who said what, and I'm disinclined to go back and check: such points were not made in the *columns* under which forum participants can participate. I.e., such claims were *not* made by either George Will or Jacob Sullum.

This bill, like the existing hate crime legislation it purports to augment, *DOES* give the federal authorities additional ammunition to "go after" people designated as "haters". From that perspective, it *is* a bill , like its predecessors, that is essentially making it a crime to "hate".

The bill provides for extra penalties to an existing crime based on the perpetrator's *thoughts and feelings.* If that ain't "thought-crime" legislation, then I don't know what is.

Ok, sure, a perp doesn't get penalized *merely* for hating. He has to commit an act of violence first. But, after that act has been committed, *then* they can go after his thoughts and feelings.

What you have in this bill, and its predecessors, is the *absence* of equality before the law.

Just like the examples I'd given earlier under Sullum's column, which I'll summarize here. You have a person who commits an especially egregious crime, and the authorities find out that the person "hated" the victim.

WHY did he hate the victim?

Coz he's straight, hate crime.
Coz he's a boss who fired me, NO hate crime.
Coz he's white, hate crime.
Coz he's a gigolo who cheated on my sister, NO hate crime.
Coz he's Christian, hate crime.
Coz he's the ugliest cuss I've ever seen, NO hate crime.

The penalty *MUST* match the crime, *NOT* the thoughts and motivations behind the crime.

Which, more or less, is what everybody against the bill has been saying.

Additionally -- what a lot of people have also been saying -- the *DANGER* in this and similar legislation, is that it is very *likely* to be enforced based on media reports of hatred, rather than any *real* objective hatred.

I.e., it is *unlikely* that any gay person will *ever* be prosecuted under this or any other hate crime legislation for committing violent acts against a straight person. Just as it has historically been unlikely for a black person to be so prosecuted for committing violence against whites.

In essence, it give the authorities more opportunities to selectively enforce legislation according to what's currently "Politically Correct". This is always a problem, and *not* having this bill will *not* solve it -- but this bill (like its predecessors) *does* add more easily misused tools to their toolbox.

As I've said before: the solution to insufficient penalties is not "hate crime laws", but simply to make the penalties stiffer. *EQUALLY* across the board, regardless of whether hatred is evident.

Get educated Patriot
get educated patriot about what is really going on before you claim some chat handle that you definitely don't represent.

Your would rather pump money into promoting muslim iraq than protecting your own homeland, beginning with money here to protect our borders and Americans, but no instead you want to help Iraqis first.

You deserve what you get. If America is attacked again it will be because of people like you who believe in the failed Bush policies that continue to fail, and make government bigger and more wasteful than a Clinton administration ever dream of.

Yep your a neo-con liberal.

BTW, "Patriot"
You want to call me on it?

Come to my blog and let me know. I'll give you a throw-away email address you can use so we can start setting it up.


Unca Alby
"I am not saying that the bill does NOT protect straights from hate-filled gays. That's entirely beside the point."

But some are claiming that it violated the 14th by calling this bill pro-gay when it's also pro-straight, pro-Christian and pro-American too. That's part of what I mean when I say it's not what some people claim.


"Ok. I don't know who said what, and I'm disinclined to go back and check: such points were not made