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Wednesday, May 06, 2009
Frank Turek :: Townhall.com Columnist
Politically Correct Torture
by Frank Turek
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Is waterboarding torture?  If it is, we’ve been torturing our service members for years.  As a United States Naval Aviator, I attended SERE school in the California desert in 1985.  SERE (which stands for Survival Evasion Resistance and Escape) prepares combatants for the possibility that they might be taken prisoners of war.  

While many aspects of the training remain classified, I can say that we received treatment far more challenging and uncomfortable than anything the terrorists ever experienced at Gitmo or Abu Grab.  As has been reported elsewhere, waterboarding was common at SERE school as it was in my class.  It was done to help us resist giving up sensitive information in the event we were interrogated by the enemy.  SERE is probably the most impactful training I’ve ever experienced.

Now, despite decades of its use on American service members, President Obama declares that waterboarding is torture when used on terrorists.  Is it?  Reasonable people cannot disagree whether scalding a person’s skin, dismembering him, or beheading him constitutes torture.  Those are undeniably torturous acts that our enemies have inflicted on Americans.  But since waterboarding leaves no permanent physical damage, reasonable people can disagree over whether or not it’s actually torture and should be used on terrorists.  I’ll address that question in a future column.

What I’d like to address in this column is the shocking inconsistency of the President’s position.  Despite being against waterboarding, President Obama does not seem to think that scalding, dismembering, or beheading is torture in all circumstances.  In some circumstances, the President actually approves of such treatment, so much so that he is now exporting it to other countries with our tax dollars.  He’s even thinking of forcing certain Americans to inflict it on the innocent.  

In fact, the President along with most in his party and some in the Republican Party, think that such brutality is a Constitutional right, which they cleverly disguise with the word “choice.”  Choice in these circumstances actually means scalding, dismembering, or de-braining a living human being—which is literally what saline, D&C, and partial birth abortions respectively accomplish.  (Before anyone labels me an “extremist” for making this point, realize that I’m just factually describing what these procedures literally do.  In my opinion, the “extremists” are those who deny these verifiable truths.)

The President might say that the comparison doesn’t work because we’re not sure about the humanity of the unborn.  He said as much in the Rick Warren debate when he declared that the question of life’s beginning was “above his pay grade.”  Well, if there’s any doubt about when life begins, shouldn’t you err on the side of caution and protect what may be a human being?  If you’re not sure whether the rustling in the bushes is a deer or your daughter, won’t you get a certain ID before shooting?

Actually, there is no doubt about the humanity of the unborn.  We are sure that an unborn child is a human being, and we know this not by religion, but by hard scientific data.  The President knows this.  If embryonic life is not human, then why does he insist on using taxpayer dollars to harvest embryonic cells?  Answer:  because they are human.  Moreover, human bodies and body parts are extracted from the womb by abortion, not just “tissue.” Finally, it’s a scientific fact that at the moment of conception a new genetically unique human being exists.  You haven’t received any new genetic information since the moment you were conceived.  Only four things separated you from adulthood—time, air, water and food.  Those are the same four things that separate a two-year old from adulthood.  We don’t allow the killing of two-year old humans; why should we allow the killing of humans just a little bit younger who happen to be in a womb—especially those at full term?

But the legality of abortion is not the main point here.  That’s bad enough, but the President is advocating something even worse.  He isn’t just allowing abortion to continue, he seeks to promote and subsidize it through the Freedom of Choice Act (FOCA).  That deceptively-named bill will end the choice of certain doctors to conscientiously refuse to do abortions, and it will end the choices millions of Americans have made to restrict abortion through parental notification laws, informed consent laws, and even bans on partial birth abortion.  All of those restrictions freely chosen by the people of this country will be invalidated by FOCA.  The President also wants to force taxpayers to pay for abortions right here in America.

Why does he want to do this?  Doesn’t he know what goes on in an abortion?  I have to assume yes.  He’s a very intelligent man.  That leaves us with one of two possibilities, neither of which is good. Either he really believes that scalding, dismembering, and de-braining ought to subsidized and increased, or he is willing to champion these things to please his base for his own political gain.  The former is madness.  The latter is an example of “the ends justifying the means,” which leads us back to waterboarding.

Questions for the President: 

Why do the ends justify the means if they protect you with your base, but the ends don’t justify the means if they protect the American People?

Why do you think that waterboarding the guilty is immoral, but subsidizing the killing of the innocent is the right thing to do?   

I’m not intending to be uncharitable, and I hope I am mistaken.  But it appears to me that this President is willing to subsidize the killing of the innocent to potentially save himself, but is unwilling to simulate drowning on the guilty to potentially save thousands or millions of Americans—a simulation that we have performed on our own servicemen for decades.

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About The Author
Frank Turek is the award-winning author or coauthor of three books including Correct, Not Politically Correct: How Same-Sex Marriage Hurts Everyone and I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist. His TV show airs Mondays at 8 pm ET on DirecTV, Channel 378. To learn more visit www.CrossExamined.org.
 
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Lazy and Unthoughtful Words You Penned
Are you an idiot. Let's say an apple is an orange. The argument is not even clever. Hurtful, yes. Clever, no.

Please read the Torture laws and Treaties. You would then know what you are talking about. And your cute play on what torture is would be made out to be mean and hurtful to the full debate.

I really dislike lazy writing. Did you get paid for this?


Obama
doesn't have to justify himself, he just has to say "I won," and all is right with the world.

And John, go back to the DailyKoos, or Huffnpuff Post, where "You are an idiot" is considered a valid argument.

Obama
doesn't have to justify himself, he just has to say "I won," and all is right with the world.

And John, go back to the DailyKoos, or Huffnpuff Post, where "You are an idiot" is considered a valid argument.

Truth Hurts
Yes John, truth does hurt doesn't it? There's nothing lazy about this article in form, context or content. Why not try disputing the clear facts presented with some of your own more "enlightened" ones.

Dumb article
“…..I can say that we received treatment [in SERE training] far more challenging and uncomfortable than anything the terrorists ever experienced at Gitmo or Abu Grab.”

No you can’t. You weren’t a detainee at Gitmo or Abu Ghraib. You weren’t involuntarily waterboarded, without assurance that you could stop it at will. And SERE training, as other SERE instructors have noted, is not as extreme as what was done to detainees.


Seriously, the right wingers are obsessed with abortion. Yet even the Bible puts little weight on the unborn:

“Exodus 20:13"You shall not murder." This verse is often mistranslated "Thou shalt not kill." Murder is actually being referred to -- the killing of a human person. Since the writers of the Hebrew Scriptures and the tradition of the Jewish people regarded a human person as beginning at birth when the newborn first takes a breath, this verse would not apply to abortion.

And,

Exodus 21:22 If men strive [fight] an hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit [fetus] depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.”

http://www.religioustolerance.org

So, if two guys get in a fight, and one strikes a pregnant woman, causing her to lose her “fruit,” the punishment for the lost fetus is whatever the husband asks for, plus a fine to the civil authorities? And this presumes the couple wants to have the baby. If the couple don’t even want the baby, what possible penalty would the transgressor be expected to pay?


?????
I am truely thankful everyday for the gift of being born in America. I truely don't understand why any person with tea amazing gift to live here could be so selfish and think only of themselves. Life begins at conception, our country and our citizens are worth protecting, and we should never take for granted our freedom and all those whom have fought and died to protect it. Those who choose to fight the war for freedom by killingthe defenceless unborn and protecting those who would kill them, thier children, thier parents, thier spouce if give the chance (in a heart beat with joy) are lost thinkers and I hope they see the injustice in thier thinking before it comes back to bite us all in the butt.

The difference
SERE is done to men who volunteer to be there and who have every reason to believe their instructors are NOT trying to kill them. A person who was abducted for cash, blindfolded and locked up in Bagram, Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib did not volunteer to be there and has every reason to believe he will be mistreated by sadistic morons and possibly killed. It's well known that over a hundred prisoners in US custody have been killed with the Army calling more than a third of those cases HOMICIDE.

Next you'll try to tell us that being put against the wall to be shot is just like the firing ranges on most military bases.

This is a laugher by Jagerman
You cant really believe this is a comparative analogy that is factual:

"The difference
SERE is done to men who volunteer to be there and who have every reason to believe their instructors are NOT trying to kill them. "

Comment: Tell, me what does volunteer status have to do with it? The SERE is AUTHORIZED ny the military for out OWN people. How is torture for anyone else?



"A person who was abducted for cash, blindfolded and locked up in Bagram, Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib did not volunteer to be there and has every reason to believe he will be mistreated by sadistic morons and possibly killed."

Comment: How is any enemy picked up with an Ak-47 in a firefight fit YOUr description.? By the way why not ask those who were sent to other countries how they were treated by the authorities for their part in terrorism? Offer evidence of sadistic morons and possibly killed. The military court martials anyone who would think of that.


"It's well known that over a hundred prisoners in US custody have been killed with the Army calling more than a third of those cases HOMICIDE. "

Comment: False, false statement. made up by you left wing zealots and repeated over and over again. What you state is a total falsehood.

"Next you'll try to tell us that being put against the wall to be shot is just like the firing ranges on most military bases"

Comment: Only if you are captured by terrorists and are an American soldier. Have you forgotten what has happened to every American soldier to fall into terrorist hands?

Nice post for code pink. They will be proud of you. The fool never addressed the abortion analogy thereby clearly validating the point of the author.

More literal lunacy by Jeffrey
"Dumb article "

Comment: as a anti Chritian same sex activist who is surprised by your statement.

“…..I can say that we received treatment [in SERE training] far more challenging and uncomfortable than anything the terrorists ever experienced at Gitmo or Abu Grab.”

No you can’t. You weren’t a detainee at Gitmo or Abu Ghraib. You weren’t involuntarily waterboarded, without assurance that you could stop it at will. And SERE training, as other SERE instructors have noted, is not as extreme as what was done to detainees"

Comment: How would YOU KNOW about it? Here, you have a man who has experienced it, knows it and all of the other training that goes along with it, and in your unbridled never before experience it arrogance,presume to decide YOU know better? Not hardly. Hey Jefrrey, any detainees ever have to jump out of a helicopter without a parachute? Did we make any of them eat bugs? Or lock them up in cages without food so everyone knows what that stress od a prisoner id like?

Grow up Jeffrey, join reality, and learn the bible before you spout off on your make believe criticisms that NEVER hold water when examined.

Liberals (Socialists)
are always on the wrong side of arguments. Why is that? Inbred defects? I honestly don't know.

What is apparent is that anyone willing to kill an unborn child but defend terrorists, murderers or pedophiles are one sick piece of garbage.

Anyone who says that they would not do anything to save their family (nation) isn't much of human being. Their families must be so proud to know that they would be sacrificed because of principals.

Good article Mr. Turek
But please remember that if the Dems. had not decided to sacrifice truth for power back in 2003 we would not be discussing waterboarding as torture.that is when they decided to be against the war they voted to start.

As you can see from the posts here of John and Jeffrey , only nitwits fell for the crocodile tears and breast beating of their Dem. leaders who told them that waterboarding was torture.

John why are you still posting with your Barry Bonnet on too tight. I told you to loosen the strings. I can tell by your post here that you did not take my advice. I'll bet you did not remove your Barry Binkie from your mouth to breathe in some oxygen either. Tsk. Tsk. You need to, you really do.

Jeffrey and Jelperman it is obvious that both of you have your Barry Bonnets tied too tight as well. Please loosen to get that circulation going in your brain.

seriously?
In your next column, please explain how swine flu is a judgment from God because of abortion. Or high ticket prices at the new Yankee Stadium is because of abortion.

LIBS
You libs are idiots!!!! You honestly mean to argue that waterboarding or any form of "torture" used against detainees at gitmo or abu garbage is anything like what was done to danny pearl or any of the victims in 9/11? You people are useless. Do you believe terrorists check party affiliations before they lop your head off? You must if you believe wterboarding is the same as beheading.

SAD
and its pretty sad when you have to jump through more hoops to get a gun then an abortion. I am waiting to hear from libs about mr turek's point. How can obambi be for harvesting human stem cells from unviable tissue mases?

Is the argument about
Morals or politics?
Seeing democrats have no morals, its just one more political argument to ignore.

The socialist party has no scruples, "an uneasy feeling arising from conscience or principle that tends to hinder action."

They have no conscience, only politics, and are more obscene than an islamic terrorist who is honest about who he really is.

People like this guy john and jeffery are not worth the spit in their lying mouths

Let's just rename it!
Here's the solution.

We'll just do it the Obama/Napolitano way.

Waterboarding can stay classified as torture for the little panty-peeing Liberals and we'll just get the Messiah to rename the enhanced interrogation techniques to 'Water-pouring'.

Water-pouring....Goood

Waterboarding....Baaad

Hey, if they can do it for blood-thristy Islamo-Fascist terrorist (oops, I mean 'Man-caused Disaster Guys') why can't we do it to protect out country.

As Barry Goldwater(boarding) said:

"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!"

On Abortion, some Liberal please riddle me this:

I'm driving YOUR 15-year old daughter to the clinic to abort our 'pregnancy'. Naturally, she hasn't informed YOU, her parent, about it because it's important to protect her Constitutional rights.

On the way we have an accident with a couple on the way to the hospital to deliver their first child. The collision leaves both females in conditions that would no longer quailfy them to be classified as 'pregnant'

Under today's laws the accident that resulted in the termination of any pregnacy is classified as 'manslaghter'.

Let the debate begin.

Torture?
It's not torture. It's simply another vehicle for Leftists to use to make them feel warm, fuzzy and in their minds much better than others.

GETTING AWAY WITH MURDER
How will we ever get bin Ladin to love us if the torturers of his terrorists aren't brought to justice and get away with murder?

To steal a thought from Ann Coulter

Why don't all of us conservatives on this board agree to be water-boarded, if all of the libtard trolls on this board agree to be aborted?

If Waterboarding is Torture....

If waterboarding is torture, then every Navy Seal who served under Bill Clinton should file a criminal complaint and demand Bill Clinton be prosecuted for torture.

That will put a stop to all this nonsense.

Blink Blink!
This is so good, I had to blink to make sure I was seeing this correctly. I'm impressed with this new comparative logic argument as laid out here. Way To Go!

Useful Idiots, Reply # 21
"If waterboarding is torture, then every Navy Seal who served under Bill Clinton should file a criminal complaint and demand Bill Clinton be prosecuted for torture.

That will put a stop to all this nonsense."
------------------------------------------------------
Voluntarily submitting yourself to waterboarding as part of SERE training is no more torture than cutting yourself with a razor is assault with a deadly weapon.

Left wing logic
Love how the people who are pro choice and are also anti death penalty can say We can't have the death penalty b/c we need to err on the side of caution, but do not think we need to err on the side of caution when it comes to snuffing out the life of an innocent child.

Jeffrey in MI
"Exodus 21:22 If men strive [fight] an hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit [fetus] depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine"

Classic out of context quotation! Kudos for your masterful attempt to spread false information. Herr Goebbels would have been so proud of you. You will go far in the upcoming Propoganda and Information Ministry.

Fortunately, we all have Bibles too. The verse says "If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, YET NO HARM FOLLOWS, he shall surely be punished accordinly as the Woman's husband imposes on him..."

But keep reading- verse 23 says "But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life."

So, contrary to your assertion, the life of an unborn child is worth the same as any other.

Better luck next time.

Damn Confused.
"I believe waterboarding is torture" - Barack Hussein Obama

Obama also believes that it is NOT torture if a doctor takes a live, kicking, screaming, crying baby and shoots a wedge into it's skull ruthlessly killing it. No Constitutional rights for the child. No human rights for the child. Straight-up Murder.

Obama also believes that the terrorists at Guantanimo Bay deserve full Constitutional protections and Human Rights fully enforced.

Can anyone make any sense of this to me?!

And I've been thinking about this all day: There is some pretty serious, strong brainwashing going on in this country when the government media, celebrities, and college professors can cause an individual to believe that George W. Bush actually should be the one put in a prison and the terrorists, who want to kill you and me, should be set free.

There is some pretty serious, strong brainwashing going on in this country when the government media, celebrities, and college professors can cause an individual to believe that our own military Generals are the enemies of our country. Remember folks? They were calling General Petraeus "GENERAL BETRAY-US!"

There is some pretty serious, strong brainwashing going on in this country when the government media, celebrities, and college professors can cause a mass of individuals to vote for a socialist, anti-American, radical leader for our country.


Serious Brainwashing
They're using you liberals like a cow for its' milk. You echo everything they say without thinking about it yourself. For EIGHT years, EIGHT YEARS, they had you liberals stomping around p*ss mad about George W. Bush's "OUT-OF-CONTROL-GOVERNMENT-SPENDING!!!!!!!". Now, you liberals are very supportive of Obama's "OUT-OF-CONTROL-GOVERNMENT-SPENDING!". You're all smiles. It's GREAT! Hypocrites or brainwashed? You tell me?

Thomas #16
How does 'baptism' sound as another alternative name? After all, the word 'baptize' means 'to wash'! Lord knows those terrorists could probably use it! :)


BRAINWASHING:
For EIGHT years, the government media, celebrities, and college professors had you liberals stomping around, p*ss mad demanding that we need to "SET A TIMELINE AND BRING OUR TROOPS HOME FROM BUSH'S ILLEGAL WAR FOR OIL!". Obama runs on the campaign promise of "SETTING A TIMELINE AND BRINGING OUR TROOPS HOME WITHIN 6 MONTHS". He wins the election. Then, he announces he is sending 17,000 more troops to the middle east and you liberals are SILENT. Hypocrites or brainwashed?

Joey "Damn Confused"

Man, did you say a mouthful while hitting the nail squarely on the head.

The United States needs to stop teaching evolution in our highschools cause this past election has irrefutably proven Darwin was wrong. Instead of "Survival of the Fittest" it's "Survival of the Dumbest."

Joey,

agree, et al. pretty serious brainwashing when almost everyone of our elected and appointed leaders believe obama is a natural born citizen of the U.S.A. even though there is no evidence to support their beliefs.

After it is proven that obama is pulling a fraud on the people of the U.S.A., he and every elected and appointed official who allowed this fraud to continue by their lack of effort to find out the truth should be sentenced to federal prison. Obama should be sentenced for life.

Oops
I have sympathy for you guys that want to see Obamas birth cert, what worries me is that if it is as ya'll suspect then we will have ole slow Joe for President and that right there is scary!

David,

under the Constitution, when a POTUS fails to qualify, the Congress will appoint a chief executive until such time as a new chief executive qualifies.

Biden will not be the successor to the presidency after obama's fraud is exposed.

Better yet
Lets suck the brains out of the terrorists and call it really late term abortion, that would certainly satisfy all Libs.

eddie too
Agreed.

eddie too
Thanks for the clarification, I was worried there. I can't imagine this country run by that buffoon.

eddie too
Oops might that mean though that we would get San Fran Nan

David
"Lets suck the brains out of the terrorists and call it really late term abortion, that would certainly satisfy all Libs."

Like the idea, but it won't work. First, libs lack morals. Second, libs really do feel warm and fuzzy for their terrorist pals. Libs would then decide that they abhor that procedure, and would name it the vilest torture that one could inflict on another human being. But, they would still refuse to protect the unborn from it.

Their illogic and inconsistency would escape them, as usual.

n in FL
"and its pretty sad when you have to jump through more hoops to get a gun then an abortion."

BRAVO!

Seriously, great points. Most people don't walk into a gun store with the intent of murdering someone. People walking into an abortion clinic, eh, thats another story.

eddie too
Actually, though I could be wrong, the way I read it and understood it was, if he fails to qualify BEFORE being sworn in, then congress finds someone else.

I think now that he has gotten the ominus dominus, and he is revealed as unqualified (legally, that is, we know he is unqualified in other ways) we are stuck with Slow Joe. I am honestly not sure which is worse.

Joey, Reply # 29
"BRAINWASHING:
For EIGHT years, the government media, celebrities, and college professors had you liberals stomping around, p*ss mad demanding that we need to "SET A TIMELINE AND BRING OUR TROOPS HOME FROM BUSH'S ILLEGAL WAR FOR OIL!". Obama runs on the campaign promise of "SETTING A TIMELINE AND BRINGING OUR TROOPS HOME WITHIN 6 MONTHS". He wins the election. Then, he announces he is sending 17,000 more troops to the middle east and you liberals are SILENT. Hypocrites or brainwashed?"
-----------------------------------------------------
Apparently you don't know the difference between Iraq and Afghanistan because one is in the Middle East and one is not.

Who cares
Torture is wrong. There are laws. They were broken. They should have hid it better. Idiots.

Tyler has
to be 12 years old. His comments don't make any sense.

Of course if wwe didn't waterboard, Tyler would be physically DEAD instead of Braindead!

MSNBC is torture
all by itself.

Luckily, it's losing so much money it's starting to sink NBC, but it is beloved of the Dem. nuts who run GE.

Just proves, ideas really have consequences.

Tyler, as ACORN and ilk GPS your front door in the name of the census, they will soon be able to locate and drop Gitmo espapees on your doorstep, and as a good little commie shill, you should kiss the ring of the Big O and thank him for his generosity and legal authority.

Onward and upward, lefties.

And if not (Part II)
The New International Version of the Bible uses the phrase: "gives birth prematurely." and offers "miscarriage" as an alternative translation in a footnote. These two options result in totally opposite interpretations: one supporting the pro-choice faction; the other supporting the pro-life movement.

Some liberal theologians reject this interpretation. They point out that this passage appears to have been derived from two earlier Pagan laws, whose intent is quite clear:

* Code of Hammurabi (209, 210) which reads: "If a seignior struck a[nother] seignior's daughter and has caused her to have a miscarriage [literally, caused her to drop that of her womb], he shall pay ten shekels of silver for her fetus. If that woman had died, they shall put his daughter to death."
* Hittite Laws, (1.17): "If anyone causes a free woman to miscarry [literally, drives out the embryo]-if (it is) the 10th month, he shall give 10 shekels of silver, if (it is) the 5th month, he shall give 5 shekels of silver..." The phrase "drives out the embryo" appears to relate to a miscarriage rather than to a premature birth.

Author Brian McKinley, a born-again Christian, sums the passage up with: "Thus we can see that if the baby is lost, it does not require a death sentence -- it is not considered murder. But if the woman is lost, it is considered murder and is punished by death."

And if not (Part I)
“Verse 22 is confusing. The key Hebrew word "yatsa" literally means to "lose her offspring." This has been translated in different Bible versions as:

* A miscarriage: This would imply that the fetus died immediately as a direct result of the accident. Assuming no further harm happens (e.g. that the woman does not die), the man responsible would have to pay a fine. The amount would be set by her husband and approved by the judges. This would imply that the death of the fetus was not considered to be the death of a human person. If it were, then the man responsible would be tried for murder and executed. However, because the fetus had possible future economic worth to the father, he would have to be reimbursed for his loss.
* pre-mature birth: This implies that the fetus is born earlier than full term. Assuming no further harm happens (e.g. that neither the woman nor the baby dies) then the man would pay a fine. One possible interpretation of this passage would be that if the premature baby died, then the man responsible had killed a human person, and would be tried for murder. The verse is ambiguous at this point.

The Challenge Goes Unmet
Waterboarding isn't torture. I have repeatedly challenged anyone to prove the assertion that we executed Japanese soldiers for waterboarding done the way we did it at Gitmo. I get lots of noise and attacks, but absolutely not one single case. This is because when they check what the Japanese who were executed did far crueler and deadly versions of waterboarding than we ever even remotely considered.
The challenge is still there, and you still have no examples.

Robert in AZ
You're missing the big picture. It's not about who tortures the most, the issue is, why is the supposedly civilized nation of the US of A in a position where it would even consider inflicting a cruel torture as a means to an end? Is our waterboarding as cruel as that of the Japanese? Well I'll bet if you're a detainee held by the US and you got waterboarded, you're not thinking, thank God this isn't as bad as the Japanese do it.

That's the point. Why is anyone doing something cruel in service to the country? Next you'll be arguing that the civilians we kill in our air raids in Pakistan aren't as extensive as other countries' air raids.

The US should not ever be considered in the same league with Nazi Germany, Pol Pot's Cambodia, Serbia, etc. in terms of human horror. A Spanish judge has determined that our offenses are grave enough to warrant further investigation. Wonderful.

WRong, Jeffrey
"You're missing the big picture. It's not about who tortures the most." No torture was used. Do you consider the caterpillar to be torture? Now, if we dropped scorpions on them, it would be.
Something isn't torture just because journalists want to call it so.
And the big picture is that the liberals have outed a covert CIA operation and given aid and comfort to our enemies. That much is without doubt. It is about politicizing decisions made in war and using it to punish the party that is out of power. And that will not be forgotten.

BK
Torture is wrong. We know that. If the government wants to do it, they should just hide it so no one knows. Wake up clown.

Tyler whines:
Torture is wrong.

Except when it's an American soldier then Tyler thinks it's OK.

You hate the USA so much that you would sacrifice your family and fellow citizens.

Time to grow a set sonny!

Why is it
that these slimy libs support terrorists but "murder" unborn children. These are the lowest of the low is this country.

Tyler Sez Torture Wrong
It's a demn fine thing we don't do it then, dontcha think?

Tyler's
not the sharpest tack in the box!

Good idea
"Why don't all of us conservatives on this board agree to be water-boarded, if all of the libtard trolls on this board agree to be aborted?"

I'm not in favor of abortion, but I think that the torture apologists in these comment boards should experience for themselves what they advocate that the government should be able to do on their behalf.

It's easy to label anyone a "terrorist", witness the recent DHS documents calling returning veterans, Ron Paul supporters and so on, potential terrorists.

I seriously can't believe that I have to engage in these arguments, I never thought the day would come when we'd be discussing whether it's ok to torture people, but the blind spot in the neo con argument that it's ok to torture terrorists, is that the government fully intends to expand the definition of who is a "terrorist".

Allan writes
I'm not in favor of abortion, but I think that the torture apologists in these comment boards should experience for themselves what they advocate that the government should be able to do on their behalf.

Well, since we do train our troops using this routine would you then say running and KP duty would be torture as well? How about getting up to early?

Somehow this discussion insinuates that our troops "torture" everytime they have contact with the terrorists. That simply isn't true. But I certainly would want our troops to do whatever is necessary to protect my family and this nation. I can't figure out what's so hard to understand about that.

Kathy
This entire argument depends on one's definition of torture-simple as that. I would say that any methods we have used in training our own service men and women wouldn't be classified as torture.

Define Torture Please!
Quote "Voluntarily submitting yourself to waterboarding as part of SERE training is no more torture than cutting yourself with a razor is assault with a deadly weapon."

So if you "volunteer" to be killed then its not murder? I can hear the argument now...but your honor my wife volunteered to be killed!

But then, IMHO, if someone takes up arms against the United States of America they have "volunteered" for whatever treatment they get if we capture them.

I have been through SERE and have been waterboarded...it is NOT torture. But, please, DEFINE torture, as you understand it, so that we may have an intelligent debate on its merits.

John, Reply # 59
So if you "volunteer" to be killed then its not murder?
-------------------------------------------------------
That would be called suicide.

If you have to ask what constitutes torture then you obviously don't understand the concept. Torture is not torture unless it is inflicted involuntarily, otherwise it is just sadomasochism.

Since none of the SERE participants were waterboarded against their will, anyone claiming that they were "tortured" is a liar.

camanintx writes:
Torture is not torture unless it is inflicted involuntarily, otherwise it is just sadomasochism.

I guess that makes Halloween torture then! Maybe if you would sneak up on a terrorists and yell "BOO" real loud that would fit your definition of torture.

Where do you people come from?

Define Torture Please!
camanintx,
Killin yourself is suicide...killing someone because they asked you to do it is still murder by the definition of the law. You still have yet to DEFINE torture...saying that it has to be involuntary is not a definition. What makes an act torture? Is being involuntarily confined torture? Is being involutntarily forced to wear a prison uniform torture? You are the one who does not understand the concept or you would be able to DEFINE it. I was not tortured because waterboarding is NOT torture...otherwise, since I volunteered for it, they could have drilled into my teeth and shoved bamboo under my fingernails to prepare me rather than use simulated drowning. Why do you think they chose waterboarding for SERE training...because it does no permanent physical or psychological harm (voluntary or not). I did not claim I was "tortured" what I assert is that if the act of waterboarding is defined as torture then by definition I was tortured...voluntary or not.

SCUBA training
. . . was worse than waterboarding. We had several near-drowning experiences as part of the training. In my diving and surfing experiences, I've had worse than waterboarding several times. They haven't discouraged me from going into the water. Torture surely would have.
Waterboarding, as done by the protocols in effect at Gitmo, isn't torture.
The caterpillar, of course, is another matter entirely.

John, Reply # 62
"You still have yet to DEFINE torture...saying that it has to be involuntary is not a definition."
-----------------------------------------------------
Normally I would say that if you have to ask then it is probably torture, but if you insist on a clearer definition then I suggest you read Article 1.1 of the UN Convention Against Torture. I'm sure if it was good enough for President Reagan, you won't have any problems with it.

But my point is, just because some people will voluntarily submit to severe pain and suffering doesn't make it an acceptable practice for
our interrogators to use. Otherwise waterboarding would be the least of our problems.

=====================================================
"Killin yourself is suicide...killing someone because they asked you to do it is still murder by the definition of the law."
-----------------------------------------------------
That would actually depend on the circumstances, wouldn't it? If someone forced me to kill them by threatening me first, it would be called self defense, not murder.

Choice...From Wikipedia...

Choice consists of the mental process of thinking involved with the process of judging the merits of multiple options and selecting one of them for action.

Most people regard having choices as a good thing, though a severely limited or artificially restricted choice can lead to discomfort with choosing and possibly, an unsatisfactory outcome. In contrast, unlimited choice may lead to confusion, regret of the alternatives not taken, and indifference in an unstructured existence.

The Ten Axioms of Choice Theory

1. The only person whose behavior we can control is our own.

2. All we can give another person is information.

3. All long-lasting psychological problems are relationship problems.

4. The problem relationship is always part of our present life.

5. What happened in the past has everything to do with what we are today, but we can only satisfy our basic needs right now and plan to continue satisfying them in the future.

6. We can only satisfy our needs by satisfying the pictures in our Quality World.

7. All we do is behave.

8. All behavior is Total Behavior and is made up of four components: acting, thinking, feeling and physiology.

9. All Total Behavior is chosen, but we only have direct control over the acting and thinking components. We can only control our feeling and physiology indirectly through how we choose to act and think.

10. All Total Behavior is designated by verbs and named by the part that is the most recognizable.

Making good choices involve making selections based upon values. Flawed or corrupt values make for bad choices.

"Traditional Values" have been proven more productive with far less undesirable consequences. While "Progressive Values" have been proven less productive with far more undesirable consequences.

We can always say,
just like parents i love you but if you cant tell me the truth i have to punish you.i dont want to punish you so please tell me the truth.Since that does not work ,before punishment there is the "this is going to hurt me more then it hurts you""because i love you"then spare the rod no longer,,,, but that does nothing about the baby killers and those that promote it.I guess we need to apply the golden rule ,and they can expect to have done to them what they have done to someone else.,,, works for me ,i love the article and would love to see it get picked up on every media outlet there is.

Robert, Reply # 63
SCUBA training
. . . was worse than waterboarding. We had several near-drowning experiences as part of the training. In my diving and surfing experiences, I've had worse than waterboarding several times. They haven't discouraged me from going into the water. Torture surely would have.
Waterboarding, as done by the protocols in effect at Gitmo, isn't torture.
The caterpillar, of course, is another matter entirely.
-----------------------------------------------------
People risk broken bones, internal injuries and even death every day just going about their normal lives. Using your logic, we shouldn't consider this torture either then should we?

And if waterboarding isn't potentially life threatening then why did the CIA get medical advise to use saline instead of water?

camanintex
The point is that I've experienced worse than waterboarding. I don't consider it torture. An abscessed molar is torture. Third degree burns are torture. Having your thumbnail ripped off is torture. All those have also happened to me, and believe me, they are torture. Waterboarding, as done by the Gitmo protocols, isn't.
Saline makes waterboarding more dangerous, not less. You have a reliable source for your statement?
And what about the caterpillar? Nobody will deal with the horror of the caterpillar treatment.

Robert, Reply # 68
"Saline makes waterboarding more dangerous, not less. You have a reliable source for your statement?"
-------------------------------------------------------
Is a memo from Deputy Assistant Attorney General Steven Bradbury reliable enough? You can read the whole thing here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/olc/techniques.pdf

Page 13 has the comment about using saline solution instead of water to reduce the possibility of hyponatremia. Page 14 also says that a physician are present at all times which shouldn't be necessary if this is such a harmless technique.

Not Torture Even By Your Definition
By the UN's definition of torture, if that is the definiton you are going to rest your case on, lets look at what it actually says:

"Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental...It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions."

1) I would argue that the phrase "severe pain and suffering" is highly subjective and, I might add, does not, in my opinion, apply to waterboarding. And since I have experienced it, and you have not, I have the standing to make such a value judgement.

2) Note the last statement "It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions." At the time waterboarding was implemented it had been legally sanctioned after a full hearing before the intellegence committees in both houses of Congress (which BTW included the Democratic leadership) and legal council to the President. President Obama's retro-active recriminations notwithstanding it still has not been determined to be an illegal act in any court of law.

By your, and the UN's, definition waterboarding is NOT torture.

John writes:
I would argue that the phrase "severe pain and suffering" is highly subjective and, I might add, does not, in my opinion, apply to waterboarding.

I just think that the terrorists simply "asked" for a drink of water and the guards couldn't make out exactly how much they wanted. In essence, the guards were actually giving them what they asked for.

"Senator, the prisoner asked for a drink of water and we simply gave it to him".

Straw Man Arguments
In response to "just because some people will voluntarily submit to severe pain and suffering doesn't make it an acceptable practice for our interrogators to use."

This is a straw man argument, I never said that because someone voluntarily subjected themselves to torture that makes it acceptable. What I was implicitly implying is that it (waterboarding) in fact is not torture and that's why it was, and still is, acceptable to use on American soldiers.

I said "Killin yourself is suicide...killing someone because they asked you to do it is still murder by the definition of the law." and you replied "That would actually depend on the circumstances, wouldn't it? If someone forced me to kill them by threatening me first, it would be called self defense, not murder."

Again this is a straw man argument. I never suggested forcing anyone to do anything. I suggested that if you volunteered to be killed the person doing it is still commiting murder and you would still be murdered. Ergo if you volunteer to be tortured the person committing the act is still torturing you and you are still being tortured. The definition of the act does not change because the party in question volunteers for it.

BTW the UN definition never mentions voluntary or non-voluntary participation as a prerequisite to the definition of torture. It says "...intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information..." In SERE training we were given a password that was coerced out of us through techniques such as sleep deprivation and waterboarding...according to the UN definiton (the one you want to use) wouldn't that constiutute torture? Of course since it is "legal" and does not inflict "severe" pain or suffering I guess the point is moot. Then again if President Obama outlaws its use it would be torture whether or not one voluntarily submitted to it.

John, Reply # 70
"By your, and the UN's, definition waterboarding is NOT torture."
-------------------------------------------------------
Your first argument is completely subjective. While you may not consider it torture, others who have also undergone the procedure say it is. Since I have no knowledge of your expertise in this subject, you'll have to pardon me if I give their opinion more weight.

Your second argument boils down to "it's not torture because it was legal" which is based on the assumption that it was legal because it was not torture. Circular reasoning like this will only make you dizzy.

John, Reply # 72
In response to "just because some people will voluntarily submit to severe pain and suffering doesn't make it an acceptable practice for our interrogators to use."

This is a straw man argument, I never said that because someone voluntarily subjected themselves to torture that makes it acceptable. What I was implicitly implying is that it (waterboarding) in fact is not torture and that's why it was, and still is, acceptable to use on American soldiers.
-----------------------------------------------------
Just because you didn't make that argument doesn't make it a straw man. Look back through the thread and you will see that others like Useful Idiots and Robert are saying just that.

Your Definition Not Mine

"Your first argument is completely subjective." Exactly my point. Your, and the UN's, definition of torture is highly subjective. I, and many other US soldiers, that have been through waterboarding do not consider it torture. The bipartisan Democratic controlled committees did not think it was torture when they were briefed on the procedure nor did the Presidents legal council. "Severe" pain is not caused by waterboarding...in fact it is painless...ever hit your thumb with a hammer, thats pain, ever accidentally induce a gag reflex (try breathing and drinking water at the same time), thats not, regardless of how "scary" it might be.

"Just because you didn't make that argument doesn't make it a straw man." actually it does. I am replying directly to a reponse you made directly to me. I do not speak for the other posters. You are creating arguments that are not on subject and by definition that is a straw man argument.

"Your second argument boils down to "it's not torture because it was legal" which is based on the assumption that it was legal because it was not torture. Circular reasoning like this will only make you dizzy." I absolutely agree. The definition you use for torture creates circular reasoning due to its very wording...to paraphrase "its not torture if its legal"...your definition not mine.

Your definition of torture is both highly subjective and lends itself to circular reasoning...typical of a liberal definition.

However, by your definition, once again, waterboarding is NOT torture. And now that you've defined your terms you can't logically refute the argument. Thanks.

You Already Know...
The answer. I just wonder why you do not have the courage to say it. There is no difference between Tiller(KS), Sebelius(KS), and President Barack Obama. I know it hurts you to think that the American People would elect an Abortionist that could not wait to get sworn in, so one of his first acts as President would be to sign an Executive order to expand the killing of innocent children. I am sure you would be crying about his snub of The National Day of Prayer as well, and afraid to say that although he lied, this man is not a Christian regardless of what definition Napaolitano gives the word. I want say Anti-Christ, but he has only been in office for 100 days. Thomas needed a lot of proof.

John, Reply # 75
"Your first argument is completely subjective." Exactly my point. Your, and the UN's, definition of torture is highly subjective.
-------------------------------------------------------
"Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person" does not seem very subjective to me, and the fact that even the CIA saw fit to require a physician and a psychologist be present at any waterboarding proves that it can produce severe pain and suffering. None of your rationalizations can change facts.

=====================================================
The definition you use for torture creates circular reasoning due to its very wording...to paraphrase "its not torture if its legal"...your definition not mine.
-------------------------------------------------------
The statement "It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions" does not create circular reasoning unless you first make the assumption that waterboarding is legal, which is your error, not mine.

This prevents people from claiming that legal punishments such as solitary confinement, whippings and even the death penalty are torture. Since waterboarding has not been declared a lawful sanction, you cannot use this exemption.

Human being?
The most difficult part in defining a human being is whether a human being is purely a physical entity or physical plus HUMAN spirit. The indefinable is the “spirit” or the form of energy that differentiates an existing entity versus a “living” entity. “Living” best defined is consciously experiencing, or storing ephemeral experiences. A form of life is defined by its DNA structure, as we know by now. Each DNA strand of a human cell is a potential human body-part. A differentiated cluster of cells, called an embryo is a potential human being. If we define full “human life”, at starting at the level of human DNA strands, than a human ovum or a sperm is already a potential human being. To discard any of these, according to your definition can be considered “murder”.
I define murder, not only the cessation of organ(s) function, but the cessation of the “spirit” (whatever THAT means). The criminality of murdering the “spirit” unfortunately has never been defined.
The spirit manifests itself in a living physical human being, after it is capable to survive OUTSIDE the womb. None of us know when the human "spirit" begins to exist. Philosophically, the spirit does not exist when it has no ephemeral manifestations, such as will, decision, or “feelings”. Essentially it does not exist, until such manifestations are perceptible.
It is complete ignorance to bestow qualifications of “human being” on a cell, or cluster of cells, when in essence it is as far from being a human being as a virus is, except of course for its DNA. At that stage, at best, it is a "potential" human being. The key in all of this is “potential”. I don’t think that every physical form of existence of a human DNA can be equated with the definition of a "human being" and be equated to a living, breathing but also thinking, and feeling human being.
Abortion of an embryo does not fit the criteria of “murdering or torturing” of a human being.

Caminintx writes:
Since waterboarding has not been declared a lawful sanction

It was declared lawful here by the President and conveyed to both Dems & Repubs in Congress. Who cares about the UN. They do not create our laws.

Aniko writes:

It is complete ignorance to bestow qualifications of “human being” on a cell, or cluster of cells, when in essence it is as far from being a human being as a virus is, except of course for its DNA

Alot of wasted space...simple response is...You are wrong!!!!
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