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Sunday, August 03, 2008
Frank Turek :: Townhall.com Columnist
Jesus and the Case for War
by Frank Turek
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I like to strike up conversations with people I meet while traveling. Last Tuesday, on the way back to San Francisco airport, I asked the driver where he was from. “Jordan,” he replied.

In an effort to make a connection, I mentioned that I haven’t gotten to Jordan, but I went to Iran in 2006 and served in Saudi Arabia with the Navy twenty years ago.

“What do you do?” he asked.

“I’m a writer and a speaker. I co-authored a book defending the truth of Christianity called I Don’t Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist.”

“I’m a Christian too,” he said. Then, just as we were pulling into the terminal, he asked, “What do you think about the Iraq war?”

With less than 90 seconds left in the ride, I quickly said, “I think it was the least bad choice we had. Saddam used WMD, invaded Kuwait, and then violated 17 straight UN resolutions and the cease fire. What other choice did we have in a post 9-11 world?”

He didn’t answer the question. Instead, he claimed that Iraq had nothing to with 9-11, and that we just should have gone after the bad guys in Afghanistan. He then said, “Jesus told us to love our enemies.”

Leaving the issue of 9-11 aside, was his inference correct? In light of what Jesus said about loving our enemies, should Christians be pacifists?

I don’t think so. In fact, sometimes the use of force is not only justified, it can be a dereliction of duty not to use force.

First, “loving your enemies,” like “turn the other cheek,” is a command for individuals in personal relationships. It is not a command for governments or for individuals put in grave bodily harm. As individuals we should pray for our enemies and “turn the other cheek” instead of returning insult for insult. Such behavior demonstrates supernatural love aimed at securing the offender’s conversion to Christ. But those commands do not mean that we have no right to personal self defense, nor do they mean that a nation shouldn’t protect its people from other hostile nations.

With regard to self defense, not only does the Old Testament affirm the right to self defense (Ex. 22:2), Jesus himself told his disciples to sell their cloak and buy a sword (Luke 22:36). Jesus later told Peter “put your sword away” so Christ’s sacrifice would go forward and the scriptures would be fulfilled (Mt. 26:54). But the very fact that Jesus told Peter and the other disciples to buy a sword shows that its use for personal protection is appropriate. (By the way, Jesus never condoned the use of the sword as a means of religious conversion. It’s impossible anyway. Genuine conversion, by definition, is freely accepted. It cannot be coerced.)

With regard to war, the New Testament does not order newly baptized soldiers to get out of the military. Instead, John the Baptist told them not to abuse their power and to be content with their pay (Luke 3:14). Soldiers are needed because, as Paul pointed out in Romans 13, governments have a God-given responsibility to use “the sword” to protect their people from harm. In fact, Paul himself accepted military protection when he was in danger (Acts 22:25f), and Jesus affirmed the right of governments to impose capital punishment, saying that such a right was given by God (Jn. 19:11).

Second, “love your enemies” cannot mean that all use of force is prohibited because such an interpretation would contradict the passages just cited and result in absurd conclusions. It would be absurd to say that “love your enemies” means “allow them to kill your family.” How would that be loving to your family?

It would be absurd to say that “love your enemies” prohibits all wars. What about the war against Hitler? Not justified? Please. How would that be loving to the Jews or the countries overrun? (Notice that even my driver friend isn’t against all wars. He thinks that the war in Afghanistan is justified. But if “love your enemies” meant you could never use force, then how can Afghanistan be justified?)

With such an absurd interpretation, we couldn’t even have police protection, a court system, or prisons. Why believe that police can use force but not Armies? There’s not much of a difference. Police use force to protect people from enemies inside a country. Armies use force to protect people from enemies outside a country.

Without the proper use of force, we’d have anarchy, and innocent people would be hurt or killed. That’s why complete pacifism is not only unbiblical, it is a dereliction of duty. Individuals have a responsibility to protect themselves and their families from harm, and governments have a similar responsibility to protect their citizens.

Christians can and should, of course, oppose specific wars that don’t meet what theologians call “just-war theory.” As I mentioned in my last column, I believe the Iraq war is just. But I didn’t get enough time with my driver friend to hear his complete case against the Iraq war. Maybe he knows something I don’t, but it didn’t seem so.

One thing is for certain: Christians contradict scripture and common sense when they say no war or use of force can ever be justified. As terrible as it is, War is sometimes the least bad choice available. In other words, it’s not that Christians are for war; it’s that we’re against the alternative—the oppression and death of the innocent. And in a fallen world like this, sometimes the use of force is necessary to protect the innocent. Without it, we wouldn’t even be able to love our friends.

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About The Author
Frank Turek is the award-winning author or coauthor of three books including Correct, Not Politically Correct: How Same-Sex Marriage Hurts Everyone and I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist. His TV show airs Mondays at 8 pm ET on DirecTV, Channel 378. To learn more visit www.CrossExamined.org.
 
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Well Spoken
Good column, thoughtful, well written, and much to the dislike of the loony left, right to the point. Watch their classic attacks on anything remotely religious. They never attack Muslims, just Christians. Attacking those who accept tolerance only shows how cowardly they are.

Dead on.

Jordanian immigrant cab-driver.....
Mr. Turek brings some enlightenment to the "Love your enemies" biblical offering.
Even in light of loving one's enemy, Exodus deals with using the sword as Turek has noted. A soldier's thorough training causes him to react or take initiative with his "sword," without losing too much time about it. The difference of one split second can mean either life or death for the warrior or his comrades. Using a weapon in war is entirely necessary. We already know what today's enemy is about. Insofar as that cab-driver professing Christianity, he also identifies himself as an Arab, and his Arab attitude doesn't really seperate him much from a Muslim Arab. This mitigates any of his sermonizing about what the bible says. We're told that Islam is a religion of peace, I'm still waiting to see that proven.
In addition, I wonder how that Christian Arab was treated by his Muslim Arab brethren, and would that have any bearing on the man's reason for emigrating to United States? Bethlehem, a former traditional center for Christian Arabs has lost most of its Christian population. What remains are the very old, and the Church of Holy Sepulcher. We can recall its ransacking by Muslim Arabs who broke in for refuge after a firefight with the IDF.

Ranger Rob
We didn't call for impeachment of Clinton when he attacked Iraq during the Monica Leuwinsky period. We didn't argue with it's necessity, we just questioned it's timing...just whether or not it was a diversion from the media attention on his sexual life. Didn't work...

Has He Never Heard of Just War Theory?
The author is addressing problems that have been dealt with long ago by Christians with much better claim to intellectual merit than he. Saint Augustine was one of the first Christian writers to consider the problem. Saint Thomas Aquinas also dealt with the issue. In other words, some of the greatest minds in Chrisendom have considered the problem over the last several centuries. They have reached a conclusion that is diametrically opposed to that reached by the author.


In the case of Iraq, there was no question of self defense. Iraq did not attack the US. Did not intend to attack the US. And did not even have the capability of attacking the US.

Some may try to use Saddam's crimes as justification for going to war, but more Iraqis have died since our invasion than Saddam killed. The country is much less stable and will descend into civil war the minute we leave. Certainly, no one can consider it "just" to make the situation in a country worse.

Nor do we have ANY chance of success -- if success is defined as creating a peaceful nation in Iraq. Iraq has a high level of violence now (in spite of the "surge") and will have a higher level when we leave.

NO ONE can claim that this war is in any way "just". This is not a war that a Christain nation should have initiated & no Christian should fight in it.

Troubled Thoughts
With an extremely heavy heart--and after reading Tom Friedman on the issue of invading Iraq--I was, on March 19, 2003, pro-war (and for the underlying idea of "converting" The Region).

I'd forgotten my Aristotle. You don't do things like that, not if you're smart.

You don't set foot on Saudi soil. You don't do that in 1990 or whenever we did it, contrary to the wishes of devout and not so devout Mohometans. How would we feel if it were done to us, especially mainly to support an immoral "lifestyle," the one we live in the West, every single day.

At any rate, the Vatican and our Holy Father, no pacifist, strongly opposed our civilian-killing The Germans overwhelmingly opposed our aggression; they were not the only thoughtful people to oppose our "compassionate" aggression.

Benedict's opposition, in and of itself, should trouble the mind of any neo-conservative or, for that matter, as Michael Scheuer points out in "Marching Toward Hell," any American citizen concerned about our longterm Homeland Security. Our Holy Father could see, with his Christ-insight, that this aggression was not only wrong (he fights daily against the dictatorship of relativism) but against common sense. It was flat out stupid, playing right into the hands of Osama bin Laden (according to an argument that makes more sense as each new event unfolds, including the "successful surge").

Having said all this, this piece by Turek is the finest 700-word essay you will ever see on the just-war theory, a theory and practice I totally agree with.--inasmuch as my fearless leaders, Saint Augustine and our Holy Father and his Catechism MAKE THE CASE. And make it on the basis of REASON, not passion or "compassion," as the Bush Doctrine seemed to argue.




you have to think
The Iraq war is an effort to stabilize the mid east. The war was an act of self defense if you have the ability to think past your nose.

It was a move directed toward putting the enemy on the defensive so a country and region would have the chance to pursue happiness...at least the chance.

If Bush had not made the very brave decision...40 million plus people would be still without the opportunity for freedom. 20 million women would still not be able to vote. Our soldiers have died for helping secure a region that threatens America and our allies. Our soldiers died so others can taste freedom.

The problem with liberals...even Christian liberals is that they are stupid. I don’t say this to be mean...just a simple fact. Your ability to reason is clouded by emotion to the point that your eyes are shut to clarity. The mid east issue is not a two-dimensional problem...it is multi-faceted and required the vision of a strategist who can see many moves ahead.

This article is very well written and correct.

Yes we should turn the other cheek...
...but we did.

If you turn the other cheek and your enemy hits you a second time...

well,

then the third blow belongs to you.

2nd iraq war a continuation of the first
First:
This war was just in that we saved millions of Iraqis from the dictator Saddam. And not just Iraqis, but also the neighboring countries - like Kuwait for example.
Second:
The articles of surrender in the first gulf war clearly stated that Saddam would open up his weapons program for UN inspection - which he didn't comply with for 14 years. The second gulf war was thus merely a continuation of the first war since the original agreement was broken by Saddam. 9-11 only quickened the inevitability of Saddam's removal from power.

As an Irish-Catholic...
... whose ancestors were converted by Patrick some 1500 years ago, I can attest that I have never entered a confessional and uttered: "Bless me Father, for I have sinned. I did not turn the other cheek." Had I ever, I expect my confessor would have been completely perplexed, perhaps wanting to come out & give me some lessons in self-defense.
I doubt even Mother Theresa or John Paul II did much turning of the other cheek when confronted by evil... or even when confronted by stupidity. The command is to love the enemy, not to allow them to be brutish. I can continue to love an enemy even as I put a noose around his neck.
Such was the fate of Saddam Hussein. The time came for him to meet his Maker... pushed forward owing to his abhorrent conduct among other men. Maybe he prepared himself for judgment, maybe not. But I certainly do not consider 'unjust' or 'unChristian' those who speeded his departure from this world. I applaud them.

First, IGNORE "ROBERT" THE LITTLE MAN!

We all know that in his sick arrogance, all he wants to do is hijack the thread... IGNORE him.

Second, Turek is absolutely correct. Sometimes it's "kill or BE killed."

The UN and the world believed that Saddam had WMDs. And now we know that there were 550 metric tons of yellow cake secreted out of Iraq, regardless of the quality... IT WAS THERE!

We also KNOW that there ARE WMDs buried in the sand in Syria, that Saddam had trucked and flown into Syria (while we.. the US.. was doing the "right thing" at the UN.)

We have EVERY LIBERAL of note on tape stating that Saddam was a threat.. to the world.. and needed to be taken out.

And don't forget that just weeks after 9-11 liberals were asking..."What did he [Pres. Bush} know, and when did he know it?"

To do nothing would have been derelict!


Sorry.. should have been .." while we..

the US.. 'WERE' doing the "right thing" at the UN.)"





pb: Excellent point! "The command is to

love the enemy, not to allow them to be brutish."

Or to make it even more pertinent, "The command is to love the enemy, not to allow them to KILL YOU or OTHERS!"

Jesus: "Kill 'em!"
Jesus, in concluding what is clearly and undeniably a self-referential parable: "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." (Luke 19:27)

Sounds more than just a little like Islamic triumphalism. Not totally surprising given their dependencies.

It really is a shame that poor dead Jesus is not coming back and never was. Likewise, all religious triumphalisms are doomed to massive disappointment and failure even as they continue to lethally poison the world scene.

One needn't be an atheist to recognize the godless inspiration for the invention of the Christ Myth, and its triumphalism, from out of the Jewish life and Roman death of Jesus of Nazareth.

What propaganda is there
that says Bush or conservatives believe Saddam was involved with 9/11? The terrorist network throughout the Middle East had always passed through Baghdad as well as Tehran, Kabul and Damascus. What is so hard about understanding a murderous tyrant that had circumvented sanctions to enrich himself with oil money, ignored multiple resolutions and was a threat to his people (with existing WMD or was capable of reconstituting) and his neighbors?

Yet we have the lib nutcases like Mathews or Letterman keep spinning the lie that Bush made all this up. Rosie and Bill Maher run the imploding towers up the flag pole every day and salute it.

How do you grab 60-70% of the country by the collar and slap them from side to side to wake up? People we are fighting murderouse sub-species. They don't negotiate they are to be eradicated. We have our best and brightest doing that very thing as we speak. And once we acknowldge that fact and stop undermining them with the nonsense and Bush-bashing we can concentrate on other issues like drilling and border closing. What would Jesus do? Bless our troops and their leaders.

Ranger-Robert is exactly right!!!

We had no business going into Iraq. So what if Saddam H. was butchering his own. Let them take care of business themselves. So what if Saddam H. was flaunting those U.N. resolutions. Let the U.N. police its own resolutions if it can. So what if Saddam H. was murdering those poor Kurds in the North with poison gas (BTW are those WMD's?). So what if Saddam H. was shooting at our patrol planes? After all he was a freedom fighter wasn't he?

Our own Declaration of Independence claims that all men are given unalienable rights by their Creator. Who are we to think that 'all men' implies other men not within our borders? Of course, our founding father only wrote those words for our benefit... not any stinking Iraqis.

Yeah, Robert, we who have the light on the hill should keep it hidden under that blanket. We who have the light on the hill should not help others to that light. We who have the light on the hill should not defend and protect others less fortunate. It's our light... Let them get their own.

Yeah, that's what America is all about.

BirdmanII: Well said. I'm supposing thes

folks.. especially the Christians, did not learn anything from the story of The Good Samaritan.

Or perhaps they're so limited that they think one should help only those who happen to be in our path. Forget going out of ones way to help those in need.



Just wars, an old world question as well
Suzerain Treaties were agreements between rulers and subjects, merchants and consumers.

The idea of just treatment of all became subject to the agreements which became law.

No man is above the law, not Saddam nor GW Bush.

This subject was written about all through the history of mankind, bringing up the learning and teaching of natural law.

One such document from 1644 was Lex, Rex.
"The Law is King"


Lex, Rex

This could be applied the Saddam


Samuel Rutherford
(1644)

For the lawfulness of resistance in the matter of the king's unjust invasion of life and religion, we offer these arguments.

Arg. 1: That power which is obliged to command and rule justly and religiously for the good of the subjects, and is only set over the people on these conditions, and not absolutely, cannot tie the people to subjection without resistance, when the power is abused to the destruction of laws, religion, and the subjects.

But all power of the law is thus obliged, (Rom. xiii. 4 ; Deut. xvii. 18-20 ; 2 Chron. xix. 6 ; Ps. cxxxii. 11, 12 ; lxxxix. 30, 31; 2 Sam. vii. 12 ; Jer. xvii. 24, 25,) and hath, and may be, abused by kings, to the destruction of laws, religion, and subjects.

The proposition is clear.

1. For the powers that tie us to subjection only are of God.

2. Because to resist them, is to resist the ordinance of God.

3. Because they are not a terror to good works, but to evil.

4. Because they are God's ministers for our good, but abused powers are not of God, but of men, or not ordinances of God ; they are a terror to good works, not to evil ; they are not God's ministers for our good.

http://www.constitution.org/primarysources/rutherford.html

What man can say Saddam was not a tyrant?
Course all I ask is how about all the other nations that fit the bill as well.

World War III in sight?

Laws of Nature are there is we learn them or not

Yes, Shelama
Jesus and Islamic cutthroats one and the same.

Give me a break! 2000 years of religious teachings have spawned a country that allows this kind of flippant observation yet you continue to disrespect. Forgive them Lord for they do not understand. Nor will they ever until they're in the fiery pits.

RangerFATMANMOORE29
Yes, and please tell us all-knowing one how many of the serving and parents of serving warriors are in the so called right wing in all our wars. I want actual stats or you need to keep your generalizations to yourself. I'll tell you one thing. The ones serving believe they're doing an important job and know for a fact that you don't believe that and that I do. So who do you think they believe is on their side? Who do you think they believe is encouraging the enemy with every word?

You are the most absolutely clueless individual I've ever had the pleasure of ignoring.

Military Officers are supposed to be

GENTLEMAN!

"Robert" the little twit, is OBVIOUSLY NEITHER!

Never takes long for him to show his true colors.




indyconantidim: Well said! :-)

The little twit is pathetic, isn't he?



Anne
I don't remember him being from Texas. Has that always been so?

indyconantidim: Nope! :-)
.

indyconantidim: Nope! :-)
Huh? seem to have lost this first post... Apologies if there is a duplicate post.


Anne
Was there a Wal-Mart transfer? Or something in the military? I can't keep it straight.

Clinton's Just War in Kosovo
No one called for an impeachment even though he had less justification to attack Bosnian Serbs than Bush had to attack Hussein.

Mission Accomplished
That should have been the banner for the 2004 election rather than for the crew of the carrier. Dr. Demento Dean and Reporting for Duty Kerry managed to follow the orders of moveon Soros and start a firm undermining of our operations in the name of politics. It's so obvious for the weakest of minds and yet the dims and their cohorts, like you, continue to bray about your patriotic resistance and wonder how the lying Bush could get away with such illegalities and murder. As has been noted on numerous occasions and even by the aforementions braying jacka$$ Kerry, that Saddam was perfectly capable of reconstituting any of his weapons if he didn't have them secreted away already. No president, let me repeat, no president, except your hero,BJ (Mr. Tomahawk Lob), could have allowed , in the wake of 9/11, this farce of a UN control to continue.
That is the morality of this war. 50 million have been freed. And McCain will have to invade northern Pakistan and Iran for this world war to conclude. Bush was forced into this selective attacking war by the treasonous activities of 2004 and the resultant civil Iraqi unrest but it will ultimately involve a total annihilation of terrorist supporters inside these countries. Syria will buckle and turn on their terrorists in the end.

Turek is absolutley correct...
First a little reminder: the mainstream/left-wing media never reports the facts/truth, they report slanted propoganda that meets their preconceived marxist views.
Now I believe a good argument can be made for both sides of the Iraq war, but to blame George Bush for every problem since the civil war is getting ridiculous.
I disagree with Bush on many issues and he has made many mistakes.
Having said that, let's put this whole thing into context and add truth.
Bush was in office six months when the most devastating attack on American soil took place killing over 3000 innocent people(thousands more are seriously ill or have died from the effects of the toxic debris).
He had to make some quick decisions regarding the terrorist threat which we all(except the media)knows exists throughout the world...various Islamic hate groups and the countries that harbor and support them.
Remember, it is public record that the Clinton administratation including Madelyn Albright, Al Gore, Ted Kennedy, et al had declared Saddam a threat to world peace, agreed that he had WMDs and was seeking nuclear weapons and would use them. Funny how for political expediency they all forget that concern as they did whatever they could to make Bush look bad.
Most recently, and again barely reported in all but a few news outlets, a large cache of Yellow Cake was found by our troops and transported to Canada to be converted for nuclear energy.
Wake up America. Let's remember what is taking place in Europe, Indonesia, Malayasia,Somolia,Phillipines...
There is an Islamic resuurgence and the West is their ultimate ambition. yet the PC and pandering continue as our very future is at stake.

Regarding "love your enemies"
I

indy: Neither! :-)
You made an excellent point above... "Yet we have the lib nutcases like Mathews or Letterman keep spinning the lie that Bush made all this up."

And, I simply love how the limited libs pick and choose the "FACTS", or totally ignore most "FACTS" or talk in meaningless generalizations to spin their take.

All one has to do is look at the posts above...


Regarding "love your enemies"
I'll let Jesus be the judge of how I understand and apply that injunction rather than those who don't obey His first command.

Robert
Let him who has no sin cast the first stone.

Robert
Is not this why you are wrong, that you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.

We are not going to be judged on whether or not we invaded Iraq.

indy: Re Mission Accomplished banner

was Gen. Tommy Franks idea, acknowledgement to the troops who had liberated Baghdad... and to encourage other countries to join the ALLIANCE!

But leave it to the limited libs to ignore that!

The Iraq war...more food for thought.
it is a fact that many within the corrupt United Nations, via the "Oil for food scandal" were lining their pockets and making deals with Saddam. Hence France(Chirac) and Germany's(Shroeder) reluctance to support our efforts there as they had oil deals going with Saddam. Kofi Annan, his sons, and God know who else were bought and paid for by Saddam.
As some credible sources insist, so was Hans Blix, the inspector that the Democrats so profusely quoated in their insistance that WMDs didn't exist. While ignoring intel that Saddam was tipped off and moved them to Syria before the invasion.
When will we realize the the U.N. and those in power there, mostly from rogue despotic nations, many Islamic, whom hate the West and U.S in particular, are in almost every instance in direct opposition to our interests? yet we fund the bulk of their work. Make sense?
The sad fact is that the American public is fed such slanted propaganda by the media whom place their socialist agenda and hatred of Bush above the truth and an informed American public when our very survival as a Democratic Repubic is threatend.
The gridlock and political posturing of both parties where the good of the party, self-interest and that of big corporations/special intersts takes precidence over the good of the nation and it's citizens

50 million have been freed?
You have an extremely warped sense of what constitutes freedom.

More than a million Iraqi refugees, including just about the entire Christian population were forced into refugee status and fled to Syria and Jordan, where most live in tent cities and poverty.

Baghdad is now a city of walled communities with armed checkpoints throughout and curfews still are necessary from time to time. Curfews, in this instance, means no vehicles allowed on the streets.

Six million Kurds were freed a decade before the 2003 invasion, but now they're land is bombed by Turkey, with our support and approval.

But here's the clincher. If your state was occupied by 150,000 foreign soldiers as well as thousands more private soldiers who, by law, could kill your neighbors with impunity, would you consider that freedom?

Didn't think so.

Gandalf: Just scroll right by the

little man "Robert's" blather...

He is NOT worth the bandwidth, and his only reason for being here is to "hijack the thread."


Robert
Nor are we going to be judged relative to another's sin.

Each of us will have to account for our own rejection or acceptance of His Redemption.

Gandalf et al, all of little "Robert's"

posts will be pulled later this morning anyway, so whatever comments/responses anyone makes, no one will see the original empty headed posts .

It's SOP... and has been for some time now. Does anyone wonder why?

Didn't think so... :-)



Anne,
Normally I do do a Proverbs 14:7, but I'm bored toniught and need the exercise staying one step ahead of the goofballs once in a while.

Christians Are Warriors
Christians have been fighting wars since Christ died on the cross. Jesus was a activist and he stood up to his enemies. He didn't turn the other cheek until He said what he had to say and then he walked away from them after warning them of their rebelliousness against God. God told men to go to war against evil people throughout the bible and He supernaturally helped them win the wars against evil as told in the old Testament many times. God took down entire empires when people turned away and lusted after evil and immorality. It's ridiculous to think that Christians shouldn't fight against evil or attacks upon them by activists in our own country. The entire bible is about Christians taking up their armor and fighting against evil doers. Yes, turn the other cheek if it's a comment after you've forgiven them and walked away from them forever, but pick up your guns and bombs and swords if it's a military attack against our country and our countrymen because every other religion doesn't have a problem fighting back to protect themselves against attacks on their soil anywhere in the world.

Gandalf: :-) LOL
.

Iraq, babies, BJ and Jesus
The largest majority of deaths of Iraqis are clearly on the hands of dims for their undermining of a successful mission in the name of politics to the point of cheering for a civil war and the threat to the lives of Americans which included Chappaquidick Orca talking Abu Graib derelicts as common including NYT pictures on the front page for 50+ stories, talking torture at Gitmo which was a lie with a leading dim senator calling Americans Nazis, a fata$$ dim rep from PA who should have gone down for taking a bribe calling Marines murderers and every dim from Murmansk to Minsk (Sorry couldn't resist the commie analogy with a line from Seinfeld)preaching war is lost in their self-fulfilling prophesy attempts.

Abortion is murder. A woman can legally abort now but there should be mandatory counselling for every woman before she does it to urge adoption and totally denied after the first trimester.

BJ was not just a blow job. It occured while on the job in the office that I pay for. Any corp in America that is automatic resignation and should be for president too. Sorry, Rob, you can't poopoo this one away.

Jesus was, is and will forever be our Saviour.


Robert's intellect
still registers an objection to his scewed logic as necessarily a defense of the opposing view. Thus does self-absorbtion reduce one's ability to communicate effectively.

Pancho
Please refer to previous post for the criminal dims that caused the civil war attempt by AQI and the resultant refugees and mass deaths. Not one American soldier threatens the life of a peaceful Iraqi. Don't you agree? Thought so.

Rose
Imagine Robert's freedom to post drivel if scores and scores of Christians in the nation's wars hadn't fought. And died.

Ranger29 'n Anne . . .
I can’t speak for the others on this list (yet I suspect the majority feel much the same way as I do), but I, for one, am getting tired of seeing Anne and Robert (Ranger 29) snipe at each other in their personal agenda.

So this is addressed to them: If you wish to air your hostilities, do it some place else. The rest of us come here to read the opinions of others on whatever topic happens to be under discussion, NOT listen to you two battle it out.

If you wish to post here, then cease and desist with your anger and hostilities towards each other. Perhaps you two are the ones that need to turn the other cheek?



regressive conservatism
So Pilate had God's blessing to kill Jesus; well as long as the government is obeyed the status quo lives! Har har har . . .

Many animals are noted for their ferocity in protecting their young, and there are even animals that seemingly kill for enjoyment, or at least teaching their young how to hunt; so far there is no difference between animal or human nature.

Albeit humanity has "progressed" beyond that and will kill for money and religion, but personally I do not see this as progression.

But Jesus and the apostles all died violent deaths, and yet none of them fought back; nevertheless Christianity today is the worlds largest religion.

This story's moral has obviously been lost on today's temporal wealth-loving Christians . . .

"The entire bible is about Christians taking up their armor and fighting against evil doers."

Rose dear, the "entire" Old Testament is about Israelites fighting evil doers, no New Testament Christians took up arms besides Peter once, who was rebuked by Christ, and the soldiers ear was healed . . .

pax vobiscum

indyconantidim
You can't post crap like "The largest majority of deaths of Iraqis are clearly on the hands of dims for their undermining of a successful mission..." and expect anyone with even half of a brain to believe you are a person of honesty or integrity. I am unaware of any information that shows civilians from the democratic party flew to Iraq and killed "the largest majority" of Iraqis. If you think what has transpired up to this point in Iraq as a result of our invasion can be considered a "success" you need to either raise your standards as to what "success" is and/or you simply lack the ability to process information intelligently. Of course the latter half of that statement seems to apply to those on the far left as well as the far right.

Playing with "statistics"
When I was a young history student at university during the early 1970's, one of the first things implanted in my mind was the awareness of how the "science" of statistics is used in ideological warfare, by all political extremes, to give a facade of "objectivity" to any particular claim about numbers.
The salient point is that statistical data . . . even TRUE statistics . . . can be made to LIE . . . by the manner in which those statistics - often paradoxical in reality - are used very SELECTIVELY to support a pre-existing bias. They can lie through the use of sloppy methodology, uneven application in analysis, and the way in which they are selectively presented to give an "aura" of impartiality to a conclusion which is really designed to simply ridicule and condescend to an opposing viewpoint.
"More Iraqis have died since our invasion than Saddam killed".
Oh, Really?
It is interesting that the person who posted that comment gave no sources of professional PEER-REVIEWED analysis to support it, no explanation of the specific METHODOLOGIES which were used to gather the data, no transparency about exactly WHO was involved in organizing the alleged "study", and no way to verify the scientific credibility of those who carried out the alleged research. Since we were not given any information about who they are, we have no way of determining their ideological bias, if any. Many people have cited the "Lancet" study about the number of Iraqi deaths, but the reliability and methodology of that study has been questioned and put under skeptical analysis even by critics of the war, such as Fred Kaplan of Slate. The conclusions of "Lancet" do not even come close to the lower estimate of the U.N.
Anyone can CLAIM 30,000; 100,000; 650,000; 1,000,000; etc. Whose "data" do you trust, and HOW EXACTLY did they gather that data?

just war doctrine applies to all sides.
On the rather meaningless conversation Turek had with the Jordanian cabdriver, I can see why Turek wants to leave aside the issue of Saddam having no role in 9/11, and concentrate instead of whether Christianity forbids the use of force.

I am sure Turek is correct that Christianity rightly authorizes force.

But Turek remains silent on the issue of Saddam's complicity in 9/11.

No surprise why.

On this "Just War theory" which has so captivated Turek, let's just be honest and say that it is just a bunch of hooey, and accept "that to the victor goes the spoils".

You can dress up any justification for war in grand philosophical, moral and religious grounds.

That after all is the essence of just war doctrine.

We, being the good guys(of course), justify war on moral and philosophical grounds...the idiotic call by this administration for the spread of democracy in the Muslim world by invading Iraq, is a case in point.

But the socalled bad guys can also justify war on moral, religious and philosophical grounds.

Bin Laden justifies advocacy of Jihad against the U.S. on moral, religious, and philosophical grounds...namely that American "infidel" boots desecrate the sacred soil of Arabia.

His call to jihad is the very essence of "just war".

So when Turek waxes with sanctimony over "just war" doctrine when employed by us, he must also concede it is equally legitimate when employed by Osama.



Sadly it would appear, these comments
these comments have degenerated into a Holy War of Left v Right -- Dem v Rep

There is evil in this world. Whether you look at that evil in a religious context or merely as human nature, evil must be confronted and destroyed.

I know to some, President George W Bush is the embodiment of evil in the modern age, but mass genocide of people because they are different or because they worship a different God are NOT his faults -- but the faults of evil ideologies across the globe.

If your faith is such that you can simply "turn the other cheek," good for you -- when confronted with this evil you will be acquainted with your God sooner, rather than later.

As for the rest of us, we would just as soon confront evil, and allow them to meet their own God.

Turek, Shelama
Turek: well thought out and well written.

Shelama, from around midnight: re: Luke19:27; you correctly identify this as the concluding line to a parable, parable of the last judgment. as a parable, it is a figure of speech, and thus not meant to be taken literally, word for word. Jesus meant that it would go badly at the Last Judgement for the wicked who do not

Ranger 29, Gandalf
well written article by Turek.

Ranger, you claim that only Bush lied us into a war. FDR was just itching for us to get into WWII, would have w/o Pearl. LBJ: lied about Tonkin Gulf. McKinley lied about Spanish threat to get into war with them, swoop down on their possessions.

Gandalf: Yes, we can be judged whether we went to war in Iraq. certainly GWB could be judged for that, favorably, IMO, his conscience certainly thought he was doing the right thing. we can be judged to the extent of the degree that we cooperated in that action, whether it was good or bad.


Jesus desires life, not death
The Pope forgave the man who tried to assassinate him, but he did not demand that the man be freed and his evil wiped clean by the civil authorities.

Jesus said render unto Caesar those things that are Caesar and those that are Gods unto God. Do not mix politics and religion, in other words.

That is good enough for me.

Jerabaub, AudiR10,
Jerabaub, Oddly, I disagree with you on your principle, that the just war theory is just a bunch of hooey, but i agree with your application of the hooey, that i did not think we had sufficient just war warrant to invade Iraq. Here its the pre-emptive part that galls me; maybe only if there were massed armies on the Canadian or Mexican border... I think every comment on this article is a better or worse version of just war weighing.

Audi, I don't think "render unto Caesar, Caesar's etc." meant to totally split government and religion. Both realms are concerned with what happens in the polis, ergo the political. Both are concerned with the common good, although under different aspects. Even the person who is the governor, or the POTUS, always has a religious side to themselves, though not usually as 'on the sleeve' as GWB. At the very least Jesus meant to bring our "God unto God's" thinking cap into the Caesarina arena.

Joseph
I put that out there partly to be provocative.

The issue of just war is complicated.

Not having researched it, I surmise it is war waged on the basis of grand moral, philosophical and religious reasons.

And as such it historically has applied to lots of wars.

But I grant your criticism of my being dismissive of the just war concept as "mere hooey".

For it is not.

There are compelling moral principles involved in many of life's decisions...war being among the most monumental of life's decisions.

And principles of morality can and have made the world a far better place.

But without succombing to the blather of moral relativism, it is hard not to argue that TO OBAMA, he has compelling moral and religious reasons for advocating jihad, or war, against us.

I agree with you completely on our not having sufficient just war rationale for invading Iraq.

I suppose I was trying to argue, in a less than clear manner, that it is a bit too convenient for us to justify our invasion of Iraq on moral and philosophical grounds, while not granting to Osama any such grounds for his waging war on us.

For certainly he thinks his crusade is deeply moral.

Of course the act of 9/11 was anything but moral.

But Obama is waging war on us for what he sees as very moral reasons...expelling us from sacred Arabian soil and destroying those oppressive, corrupt and authoritarian mideast regimes whom we support.

Appreciate your comments.

p.s.. Joseph
I meant Osama, not Obama, and it is succumb, not succomb.

Don't Fall for Lefty Arguments
As usual, Turek's column has brought out the left wing railbirds. But, there is one argument that we who are “right” cannot let them get away with.

Nowhere in the run-up to the Iraq war was there any suggestion by the president that Iraq was involved in 9/11. For the moment, let's ignore the 9/11 Commission finding that Saddam did contribute to the terrorism that culminated in 9/11.

What Bush and Powell said at the time was that, in light of 9/11, the US could no longer sit back when faced with a potential threat and wait to be hit before acting. 9/11 changed all that, and made it imperative for the US to act when a credible threat is building. That Iraq had WMD is indisputable, they had submitted an inventory to the UN detailing what they had. And, it was an impressive list.

Saddam was making war noises at the US, violating UN sanctions he had agreed to, and bragging about his capacity to wage war. All of these claims were backed by every intelligence agency in the free world, including France. So. Bush gave Saddam one last chance to come clean and allow the UN inspectors to do their jobs. When he defiantly declined, we acted. Something the feckless UN did not have the guts to do.

This is the truth and the reason why, as a result of 9/11, we cannot wait to be attacked. We must neutralize the threat.

And, anyone who says that there is no connection between 9/11 and Iraq, is a liar! And, that's a fact.

War
It is refreshing to read your editorial, because it is evident that you have studied and read the Bible. Those who do not know the scriptures just take any phrase that seems to be convenient to prove their point and use it out of context to bolster their own view. Thanks for reminding us of these truths that relate to life today!

Jerabaub, no need to correct typos,
TH readers know that you are usually quite literate, and we all phat phinger sometimes.

Just war theory is endlessly fascinating, because virtually always there is more evidence one can adduce on either side.

Re: Osama--Obama, there's a freudian slip, huh? i think Ted Kennedy did that one time, not sure if it was on senate floor or not.

I can grant you that Osama might have good just-war warrants for making what looks like to him defensive war on us. But just war NEVER permits the intentional or highly negligent killing of civilians, as on 9/11 or suicide/homicide random bombings. attack our soldiers, ok; that's why they get paid the little bucks.

What about Genocide? and Democrats
Democrats have a long history of being ok with genocide.
------------------------------------------------
July 2007 "Presidential hopeful Barack Obama said the United States cannot use its military to solve humanitarian problems and that preventing a potential genocide in Iraq isn't a good enough reason to keep U.S. forces there."
------------------------------------------------
Lesley Stahl on CBS's 60 Minutes.

Madeleine Albright When asked by Stahl with regards to effect of sanctions against Iraq:

"We have heard that half a million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?"
Albright replied: "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price — we think the price is worth it."
------------------------------------------------
Samantha Power was rightfully awarded the Pulitzer for her finely written and downright horrifying book "A Problem From Hell" which, in macabre detail, describes the calculated indifference of the Clinton administration when 800,000 Rwandans were being systematically butchered. The red phone rang and rang and rang again. I don't know where Hillary was then. But her husband and his entire experienced foreign policy team - from the brass in the Pentagon to the congenitally feckless Secretary of State Warren Christopher - just let it ring.


Genocide in Iraq before Iraqi war

Many Americans have heard about the 'Rape Rooms' in Iraq.

The details are to ghastly to describe here at TH, this is as graphic as allowed.

Women and girls, reportedly as young as 9 years old, were strapped down and repeatedly raped and tortured any way the 'Islamic Animals' desired, by as many 'Brutal Men' as available.

Many of their families were forced to watch.

When the 'Islamic Animals' had enough of the female, many were fed feet first into a wood chipper while they were still alive.

The next female victim and their families would be brought in.

This was Genocide of Iraqi females.

Ranger29 - Robert

"first off Saddam gassed the kurds when he was our friend..."

Your are right again!!! Saddam was our friend (when it suited his purposes). And he was our friend (when it suited ours). But a friend in time of need is a friend indeed. Was Saddam ever our friend in time of need? I think not.

A WMD is a WMD. We Knew he had them didn't we?

Do I understand that you do not give enemy combatants of the United States constitutional rights of the citizenry?

I guess I am part of the right wing that you refer to. I do have a son in the military. I was also in the military. How loud can I shout my approval of this war? One of the few enumerated purposes of Federal Government is to provide for the common defense. That gives the Feds the right to raise and maintain an army; and to fight in our name any enemy that attacks us ... anywhere, anytime, and with all our might.

"BTW him shooting at our planes in the no flyh zone? He never came close to hitting one."

This does not speak of intent. So his men were bad shots. At the OK corral, the Earps shot to kill. In wqar there are no halfway measures. But you knew this already.

And everytime a SAM came up we bombed the heckout of the radar/missile net that was responsible.

Obamas and Partial Birth Abortions

What kind of principles do the Oamas have? Obama is said to be a 'deeply religious' man.
What deeply held religious conviction is this?
------------------------------------------------
"U.S. Senate candidate Barack Obama's wife, Michelle, sent a fund-raising letter with the "alarming news" that 'right-wing politicians' had passed a law stopping doctors from stabbing half-born babies in the neck with scissors, suctioning out their brains and crushing their skulls. Michelle called partial-birth abortion 'a legitimate medical procedure,' and wouldn't supporters please pay $150 to attend a luncheon for her husband, who would fight against 'cynical ploy[s]' to stop it?"

“Whenever we define a pre-viable fetus as a person that is protected by the Equal Protection Clause or the other elements in the Constitution, what we're really saying is, in fact, that they are persons that are entitled to the kinds of protections that would be provided to a -- a child, a 9-month old -- child that was delivered to term. That determination then, essentially, if it was accepted by a court, would forbid abortions to take place. I mean, it -- it would essentially bar abortions, because the Equal Protection Clause does not allow somebody to kill a child, and if this is a child, then this would be an anti-abortion statute.” Barack Obama 2002 Illinois

Regarding genocide, et al.
There is a relatively new philosophical correlate going around, dated to the 80's, called "responsibility to protect," with which i'm not sure i agree, that the world community has a duty to intervene in such cases. does that throw out national sovereignty?

did the brits, french et al have a duty to intervene when we battered the native americans?

I don't think so,
There is nothing in the Gospel Story instructing about the morality or immorality of war.

The Gospel Message is Good News about reconciliation between God and Men.

Take note.

Well executed article
You obviously have a great grasp of scripture and have rightly divided the Word to provide a very balanced theological approach to war.

I commend you! Even Christians can have a hard time piecing it all together.

You have articulated the points very well, good and faithful servant!

Turek is still a turkey
It's immoral to murder people in another country for political reasons. Whether we American's have killed 5,000 or 500,000 Iraqis it is immoral. We invaded their country. No Iraqi told us "it's OK for you to murder me so that one day Iraq will be a democracy and my grandchildren will be free, so I willing sacrifice my own life and give you permission to murder me."

Doesn't matter what Jesus said or didn't say, we can think for ourselves. It's immoral.

No Justification for going into Iraq??
Are you kidding me?
In 1991 Saddam signed a U.N. resolution that allowed him to retain power provided he allowed several things to take place - like the no-fly zone, like inspectors and such.

By 1994 he was in violation of ALL of those resolutions. Any ONE of those violations gave the U.N. or the U.S. the right to go back in.

Saddam did not have anything to do with 9/11. But he did support terrorist regimes who did, he was seeking nuclear capabilities, he was funding suicide bombers, he was involved in genocide.

After 9/11, all those things listed above made him a grave threat to the U.S.

No justification? Bush had every justification for going into Iraq.

Further, while we have seen terrorist attacks in virtually every other nation, Israel, England, Spain, Germany, France, Russia, Turkey, India, Indonesia, since 9/11, Bush has not allowed terrorism to hit our shores again.

That in itself, makes him a very successful President. And if this experiment in Iraq is successful, Bush will have aocomplished what no other President has been able to do in the middle east in a century. This will be a greater accomplishment than Reagan's take down this wall!

Proud Lib: "murder?"
Proud Lib, first of all, it does matter what Jesus did or did not say, even if you don't believe in him, his word has had much more influence than yours.

Secondly: you use the word "murder." But that is called begging the question. Of course murder is wrong; the question before us is whether the killing that has been done, on both sides, is justified. If not, then it is murder; if it is justified, then its defensive, of ourselves or some innocents, then it is regrettably ok. reasonable minds can differ.

You know
Turek doesn’t actually make a case for Jesus and war other than to point out that there is nothing that’s says Jesus would oppose war. That is important but not conclusive. However, what Turek does do it clearly explain justification for war. It is because I agree with his reasoning that I could never be a pacifist; but in this particular application Turek comes up short. The heart of the debate is now pushed to evaluating just how much of a threat Saddam presented.

Luke 22:36,


The sword was for one own personal protection in one ministry of the gospel so how does that evaluate into justification for a war? It doesn't.

That is not to say war is not justified but again you don't find any instruction in the Gospel stories about it.

The author is overstepping the boundaries of Scripture to justify his own thoughts.

Not good.

Frank
I see being a "Christian" does not immune one from "Lying".Saddam was taken out of power because he was in the process of destroying the American dollar.America said not a thing while Saddam massacred the Kurds and yet we want the world think we invaded Iraq on Moral grounds.Why don't "US" just tell the truth?The world knows the truth,we are only "Lying" to ourselves!!!

The Pacifist Myth
Great column... and necessary in these obsessively politically correct times.

The idea that pacifism was a part of the teaching of Jesus was popularized in the writings of Tolstoy.

Pacifism, however, is not today, nor was it ever, a part of Jewish belief. And Jesus was an observant Jew, largely in agreement with the teachings of first century Judaism. The Jewish position is that it is permissible to kill in order to defend oneself.

“Turning the other cheek” is an illustration of how we should react to a hostile neighbor. If, for example a friend insults and embarrasses us by slapping us on the cheek we are not to slap him back, but instead offer our other cheek. This is probably the best-known of all the sayings of Jesus. It also is one of the sayings on which pacifism is based. Properly understood, it has nothing to do with battlefield situations, defending oneself against a murderer, or resisting evil. It is an illustration of how to deal with an angry neighbor, a personal “enemy.”

Our response to evil does have to be resistance! It is morally wrong to tolerate evil. Hitler, Stalin, and yes, Saddam Hussein all qualify for that category.

Check out Isaiah 63:1-4 to get a great snapshot of Messiah as the coming Conquering King.

uncomfortable facts.
Bush supporters who make the claim Iraq was justified on the basis of humanitarian grounds are of the same mind as Barack Obama who makes the case for U.S. military intervention in concert with others in Darfur due to humanitarian reasons.

Acording to this thinking, we should have invaded Rwanda in the 1990s.

It is patently absurd to argue Bush administration had not attempted to link Saddam with 9/11 attack.

Mere hours after 9/11, Rumsfeld was asking if Saddam could be targeted along with Osama bin Laden.

The day after 9/11, Bush himself asked Richard Clarke to look for evidence Saddam had staged 9/11. When Clarke replied, Mr. President, al Qaida did this, Bush said, "I know...I know, but see if Saddam was involved. Just look".

In 2002 Cheney on "Meet The Press", refused to say there was no connection between Saddam and al Qaida.

On National Public Radio, Cheney was quoted: "There's overwhelming evidence there was a connection between al Qaida and the Iraqi government. I am very confident there was an established relationship there."

So to say the administration never attempted to conflate the two is just crap.

Eventually, when pressed on the issue, Bush was forced to admit there was no connection between Al Qaida and Saddam. But for years, the administration had a vested interest in conflating the two.

And for those citing Zarqawi, that dog won't bark.

Zarqawi spent his time in Saddam's Iraq in the Kurdish north, where Saddam had little or no control.

It was only after Saddam was deposed that Zarqawi became a threat to us, and to Shia Iraqis.

One final point. Read the Manning memo where Bush back in early 2003 realized Saddam did not have wmds, and had speculated on having an American U-2 spy plane be painted with U.N. coloration and insignia, to prod Saddam into firing on the plane, and providing a pretext for the invasion.

Google it.

Bush was and is deep into deception.

Every one is a Bible teacher today
Believer and non believer.
All are scholars yet none agree.

One would think on one page the Bible is for war.
Another page is for peace and peace comes from pacifists.

One would think this world is the Kingdom of God, another sees this world is not the Kingdom of God but of men.
He would think the State is the same thing as the Church, all the while demanding a separation.

He would think that American Government is the same thing as Christian Evangelists, just doing the Will of God.
Never understanding the separation, all the while demanding this very thing.



The most belligerent of all are, the ones who come and do not believe the bible , yet yell the loudest about being a bible scholar.
Missing where to place a scripture, in its context, and never rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

Ignorance of the Bible is the problem, as this day and age the world at large is illiterate in what it teaches, yet think they are bible teachers and scholars.

I just love how non-Christians love to tell how Christians are to think.

Every thread concerning Jesus Christ and the Bible they come and loudly proclaim their expertise in its teaching, all the while rejecting it as from God.


Frank done a good job in addressing the point he was making, and no man on this planet can write an article or a book that can cover ever possible argument a believer of unbeliever can bring up.



Uncomfortable facts
Jerabaub, I suppose the report from the AP regarding a secret US mission which delivered yellow cake from Iraq to safekeeping here won't mean anything to you. Too bad.

jerabaub
You must believe Saddam was on our side and would have prevented 911 if he had known about it.


pacifism
Turek makes a strong case against atheists being pacifists. There are too many cases in which evil results from doing nothing to justify an absolute ban on war. Although there is obviously something twisted about the people who seem to think that war is the solution to every problem.

The case in the Christian context is a bit less convincing. After all, central to Christianity is the idea that the next world is more important than this one. Clearly Jesus could have taken up arms against the Romans. That is what jews see the Messiah as doing when he does come. But instead the path that Jesus chose to take, despite great provocation and suffering, was to set a peaceful example because preparing ones soul for the next world is more important than the sufferings of this one.

That is why pacifism becomes more coherent, and with some other assumptions about morality possibly even morally obligatory, if one has a view about the importance of the next life, (or future lives in the case of belief in reincarnation). But then it is not clear how many christians take such things seriously, so they may well be in the position of the atheist who has no serious choice but to reject pacifism.

I am certainly not a pacifist myself. The fact that we should avoid stupid wars like the one in Iraq should not be taken as a sign that we should reject all wars.

Christian Military Industrial Complex
Seek Biblical justification if it helps you sleep at night.

Or, just be honest and admit that the agenda for war has nothing to do with religious dogma.

NICE TRY, FRANK
No rational person will argue against the concept of a just war. War is sometimes necessary, if not outright noble.

But all just wars will have one common factor that the Iraq war lacks; a specific and unequivocating reason for engaging in military action. Bush and his administration cited WMDs and a link to Al-queda as the reason for the invasion. According to him, Iraq was an imminent threat to our security that had to be neutralized.

Now we all know (and Bush most likely knew then) that none of the three reasons is true. So now it's about the U. N. resolutions, or freeing the Iraqi people from a brutal dictactor, or establishing a democracy in the middle east, or a few other reasons spouted by those with blind allegiance to this president.

So spin all you want Frank. But being a Christian myself, I'll never believe anything based on falsehoods has the blessings of my savior. It's wrong to bear false witness, even if it's against Saddam Hussein.

OLBERMANN ROCKS

This article confuses the Word of God
"let God be true though every man a liar."

God's Word is open and available to every man to know the Truth of God for himself.

Read for yourself. Letting others tell you what it says is not 'for yourself' and the more it passes through the prism of men's thinking the more it becomes refracted.


a just war?????
first a pre-emptive war against a country that did not attack us is immoral.

following the logic of many posters we should be invading china instead of bush breaking bread with them.

we should be invading north korea and iran also.

the author wants to use biblical scripture to make his point and tries to use the old de-bunked idea that the bible says we must obey our government.

every apostle of Christ (except John) was killed by hostile civil authorities opposed to their endeavors. Christians throughout church history were imprisoned, tortured, or killed by civil authorities of all stripes for refusing to submit to their various laws and prohibitions. Did all of these Christian martyrs violate God's principle of submission to authority?

So, even the great prophets, apostles, and writers of the Bible (including the writer of Romans Chapter 13) understood that human authority – even civil authority – is limited.

Plus, Paul makes it clear that our submission to civil authority must be predicated on more than fear of governmental retaliation. Notice, he said, "Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake." Meaning, our obedience to civil authority is more than just "because they said so." It is also a matter of conscience. This means we must think and reason for ourselves regarding the justness and rightness of our government's laws. Obedience is not automatic or robotic. It is a result of both rational deliberation and moral approbation.


Don't Tread On Me
I’d like to read that report. Do you have a link?

Reason for going to war...
1) Saddam was a threat
2) Saddam had WMDs

Let's look at issue #1. Saddam violated 17 UN resolutions and didn't allow UN weapons inspectors to do their jobs. He had already used weapons on his own people. What prevented him from turning them on us?

Issue #2. Some 500 WMDs WERE FOUND in Iraq less than two years ago. Look it up. They found them. No one ever mentions this.

And Keith Olberman is an idiot

a just war?????

1. Is the cause just? (Just causes include defence against violent aggression, but offensive war is only permitted in very limited circumstances)


2. Is the intention to restore justice between friend and foe? (Some wars do irreparable and lasting damage to the prospect of just relationships.)


3. Is the action a last resort? (Every negotiation and other resort must have been properly tried and failed.)


4. Is the action instigated by the highest governmental authority? (In our situation, this is the nation-state, not the UN; but the UN symbolises the greater rule that national rulers are under.)


5. Are the goals limited? (Leaders must clearly state what outcomes are required. This enables an enemy to comply, or an army to secure those outcomes. Otherwise, wars degenerate into a passion for inflicting harm, a cruel thirst for vengeance, a lust of power, etc.)


6. Is the action proportional to the offence? (The methods employed in open warfare must not exceed the initial problem.)


7. Will casualties be kept low, particularly among those who can not or do not bear arms? 8. When contemplating an offensive war, is there a reasonable hope of success? (This prevents some wars of principle, where an attack is against hopeless odds. A seemingly 'hopeless' defensive action might still be 'just' , though.)


"We do not seek peace in order to be at war, but we go to war that we may have peace. Be peaceful, therefore, in warring, so that you may vanquish those whom you war against, and bring them to the prosperity of peace." Augustine


http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/9431.htm

a just war??????
Our rulers are the custodians of sensitive and technical information. Decisions for war are based on such information which might emerge in the future. Nevertheless, it is valid to ask our leaders to outline an ethical case for any decision to go to war on the basis of evidence available publicly. Applying just war theory to war with Iraq raises the following questions for our leaders:


1. Is the cause just? For a just defensive war, it must be shown that Saddam is violently aggressive; but he is not at present instigating war, and no serious links to Al Qaeda are evident. An offensive war can proceed to enforce Iraqi disarmament, but in two inspection reports by U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix, evidence for the existence of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction (WMD) is almost non-existent, even if suspicions run deep. A case for war might be made to remove his government in light of human rights abuses, but such an action would require a different, very serious U.N. level discussion.


2. Is the intention to restore justice? Leaders must ensure that the restoration of justice is their only intention. Are our leaders assured that the war is not stemming from Augustine's "passion for inflicting harm, the cruel thirst for vengeance, an un-peaceful and relentless spirit" and "the lust of power"? It is hard for us to imagine the pressures upon U.S. citizens after September 11. Certainly their fear of Iraq's possible links to terrorists is more pronounced as a result. Nevertheless, to lead the world properly, the U.S. especially must refrain from wars of vengeance. The strength of our alliance gives our Prime Minister a unique position of trust from which to urge the U.S. President not to make war for vengeance or glory. Is our Prime Minister pressing the President on this? History will remember a great President who responds to September 11 with justice, not vengeance.



a just war?????
3. Is the action a last resort? U.S. and U.K. leaders argue that negotiations and U.N. disarmament have failed; however U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix, in both of his reports to the U.N., remains confident in the inspection procedure. Can our leaders outline what makes war necessary as a last resort, when sanctions have effectively constrained Iraq and prevented a weapons build-up, and while the weapons inspectors remain reasonably confident in their work?


4. Is the action instigated by the highest governmental authority? The U.N. is not so much a government over governments as an expression of the truth that rulers are under the greater rule of 'international law', which had its origins in Christian thought, and which is finally found in the rule of the Lord Christ. The U.S., U.K. and Australia are governed by a justice greater than their own, so although the U.N. is flawed, its arguments must be weighed very heavily in determining what is just. Several member-states of the U.N., some of whom participated in the Gulf War, argue strongly against this war. Can our leaders explain what invalidates their arguments?


5. Are the goals limited? The stated intention of this war has been to disarm Saddam Hussein. It is a technical question, certainly beyond our expertise, as to whether this is an achievable goal for the military. But before going to war, political leaders must be assured that this goal is indeed achievable. If the true goal is regime change, leaders must be assured that they can in fact effect such a change.


re: christianlib at 11:19am
We can answer in the affirmative on every one of those items. Including your one on the UN since the UN authorized our actions. Don't forget that we are in Iraq because of a UN security council ruling.

So I would suggest that this is a just war. Now before you go off on the number of civilian and non-combatant casualties just let me say this we aren't the ones bombing busy market places. We're trying to stop those who do such things. The rational of a criminal is to explain the blood on his hands by saying see look what you made me do. That's a specious argument since the criminals trip the bombs and pull the triggers and murder the innocent. We're hunting them down and delivering justice from a Marine or Army M4.

a just war????
6. Is the action proportional to the offence? Saddam is certainly a difficult and deceptive leader, but that is not the 'offence' in this case, and war against his character would be an impatient overreaction. The offence, in this case, is the possession of weapons of mass destruction (WMD) by an untrustworthy, violent leader. But is war a proportionate response to the suspicion that Saddam is attempting to conceal WMD? Or do ongoing effective inspections remain the more proportionate response? The question cannot easily be settled until the destructive potential of whatever arms exist, is better known. (Satellite photos of suspicious truck movements were central to Colin Powell's evidence of clandestine WMD manufacture. But Hans Blix respectfully notes that the truck movements took place at a site known to be free from WMD, and questions the analysis of these photographs) Open warfare might be necessary to set the conditions under which disarmament can proceed, but it remains to be shown why warfare must suddenly happen now. Without the presentation of clear evidence that Saddam is supporting terrorism then the case for war is weakened by the containment so far of any miliatary designs he might have against his neighbours.



talent scout
Saddam was always on Saddam's side. No one else's.

Yes, he was a horrible person, a despot who murdered, or caused the deaths, of thousands.

But so are many others.

Would you counsel sending our young men and women to combat, to get their legs blown off, to remove despots?

If so, where does it end?

How many of our finest are to be sacrificed to satiate your santimonious sense that the world must be rid of despots?

Returning to Saddam, we did covertly assist him during the Iran-Iraq war in the 1980s.

Maybe you ought to condemn Reagan.

You have failed to refute anything I said, and only make ill-informed speculations.

a just war????
7. Will casualties be kept low, particularly among those who cannot or do not bear arms? Thankfully, western militaries are improving in their attempts to respect this facet of justice; but in order to remain accountable here, free access must be given to journalists to inspect battle scenes in the immediate aftermath. Neither should we be romantic as to the effectiveness of technology to contain war. War will definitely kill many who do not bear arms.


8. Is there a reasonable hope of success? On the basis of Western success in the Gulf War, it would seem that there is; however again, the answer to this question is contingent upon the clarity of the goals that are set for the war.


Unless these questions can be satisfactorily answered, then just war theory does not seem to endorse invasion of Iraq as a just war. Indeed, just war theory has a bad reputation, since it has a tendency to justify wars later proven to be unjust. What then are we to make of this war, if not even just war theory can endorse it?

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/9431

lazyeye - correction about Olberman
Olberman is a frothing idiot.


lazyeye
Do you have a source on that figure? I’d like to read about the WMDs.

christianlib - just war
One question:
Did the Israelites slaughter all the people of Jericho out of self-defense?
Was this an example of just war?

Proud Liberal and christianlib
Liberals claim it is wrong to go to war because innocents might be killed/murdered.

Do you liberals also think it wrong to kill/murder/abort innocent life in the womb?

Oh, so if a women's choice to abort her innocent baby is not wrong, how can ANY choice by an American President be wrong?




Really is a Separation of Chruch & State
Really is a Lawful and Legal Procedure to elect a person who is the head of the Executive Branch of Government.

Government is not a Church.
Government is not intended to Evangelize the Gospel.
Government is established by men to govern men.
Not Christians, not Jews, not Hindus, not any group of men that are divided by their religion or their politics.

But the entire nation.
Once elected this man is placed in an Office that has the Legal Authority and the Lawful Duty to make the decisions required to make as the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces.

The Congress is the part of Government that makes the decision when the President can use the Armed Forces.

The US Congress gave the go ahead and the approval for the President to use the US Military in Iraq.

He made the decision when, and who was in charge to fill the order of Congress.

The decision is made, and its all legal according to our laws and Constitution.
Therefore obligating all citizens to obey the law regardless if he is a Christian or a Jew or a Hindu.

All men are under the Law.
The Law is King, in this world.
This is not heaven, this is planet earth.
And while we are here, we are subjects to the lawful authority of the government.
Like it or lump it, its the way it is, even in God's plan in granting this power to Civil Authority.

All arguments were made before the decision was made to invade Iraq.
The decision was made then, and any arguments now, are nothing but dissension and is condemned by the Principles of Christianity.

There is a time for all things, and the time has passed for arguments, we are now in Iraq and been there for 6 years.
No arguments from dissension will change one iota of the situation we are in.
All legal.

All done by Due Process of Law and Constitution.

So shut up, and live with it, you are not changing anything


hexadecimal
We believe that the Old Testament is given to us by God as an instrument of edification and the understanding of spiritual truth. It tells the story of the struggle of Israel to understand and obey God’s laws. That struggle was replete, as the Hebrew prophets repeatedly pointed out, with human misunderstanding and error. We are to learn from and profit by, not only the valid insights gained by Israel, but also their mistakes.

Two examples, out of many, will help to make the difficulty plain. We are told in the Book of Joshua that when Jericho was conquered, the Israelites, in obedience to Joshua’s command, “utterly destroyed all that were in the city, both men and women, young and old, and ox, and sheep, with the edge of the sword” (Joshua 6:2 1). Are we to believe that it was actually the will of a loving God that innocent women, children, and even animals, should be brutally and cruelly put to the sword? Are is it more sensible and consistent to believe that Joshua, a sinful man and, to some extent, a prisoner of his culture, misinterpreted God’s will in a spirit of vengeance? The Old Testament must always be viewed through the eyes of Jesus. Is it possible for us to imagine Jesus sanctioning such a massacre? Were the lives of all the inhabitants of Jericho worthless in the sight of God?

brett
i am pro-life as are most Christian liberals.

i am also against the culture of death exemplified by the death penalty.

how about you?

Brett: Excellent point!!!!

The libs just gloss over the part about killing and murdering innocent babies, and focus on "women's' rights."

And of course, they refuse to acknowledge that more innocent babies have been murdered than ALL WAR CASUALTIES COMBINED...and that's including as far back as the Civil War... .

Of course, they won't talk about that!


war and other stresses


I really wanted this world to give up wars. Just as I wanted to end poverty.

But since I read the words of Jesus Christ, it's been clear to me that isn't the Will of God at all. He said that in the last days there will be wars and rumors of wars.

And He expressed no particular worry about it.

Jesus also said the poor we shall always have with us. Not because we shouldn't try to end poverty, but it simply can't be ended in this world. I wish good souls everywhere would stop trying to second-guess the Son of God. It only causes us stress. If this were Paradise we wouldn't have cause to suffer. But it's not.

Wars are here to stay. We might as well fight to win; after we exhaust our efforts for a diplomatic peace.
I think it was Phillip of Macedonia in one speech, who belabored his country's diplomats for giving away all the peace he'd won by force of arms. They'd always bring back more war with their weak diplomacy.

.

My mother gave the same argument
about having troops in our country and how mad she would be. I asked her "what if you were not the favored tribe and were unable to work or worship because of this. What if you were tortured until your sons agreed to join the military. What if your daughters were raped because Saddams sons took a liking to them. What if you had to kill kurds who did nothing or have your ears sliced off to prove that you were a traitor. Maybe you too would like to have Saddam gone.

Additional correction
hexadecimal writes: 11:26 AM EST
lazyeye - correction about Olberman
Olberman is a frothing idiot.
=====
ts:
Olberman
Is a first class blue ribbon idiot, a genuine, authentic moron, decomposed bodies are less offensive than this fool.

definition of "self-defense"
what turek fails to dive into here is the very definition of "self-defense." remember, iraq was a "pre-emptive strike" which is not self-defense. now, in terms of war, we can broadly expand self-defense to defense in general, but even with that new threshold, iraq still would not qualify, as we were not "defending" anyone. all of the mentions of wmd and invading kuwait happened over a decade before the current war, and we had already gone to war over it previously, so isn't that like double jeopardy? no one was against the afghan war because we were defending ourselves against those who attacked us. but, to try to make iraq seem like a self-defense situation is absurd. they had neither attacked nor threatened us (offense), so how can our attack, invasion, and occupation of them be considered defense? that goes against precisely what Christ taught. i guess attacking iran would be considered "defense" too according to his logic...

LAZYEYE
Still trying to justify the war, heh bud. Yes, Saddam violated resolutions. If Bush thought this was just cause for war (as opposed to economic and political sanctions supported by other nations), why didn't he say so. And don't forget, prior to the President's 48 hour ultimatum to Saddam, inspectors were in Iraq, doing their jobs. Why didn't Bush allow them to finish? Maybe he knew there were no WMDs, and his rationale for war would be exposed.

And please stop with the lie about 500 WMDs being found in Iraq. Yes, weapons were found, but many were the type provided by the U. S. during Iran contra, and none was the type used to justify the invasion. Even the CIA's top weapons inspector concluded there were no WMDs after an 18 month investigation. PLEASE, SING A DIFFERENT TUNE!!!!!!.

OLBERMANN ROCKS

P. S. I'll address Saddam using weapons on his own people during the next post.

Christianlib is against the death
penalty and yet time and again God commanded that certain sinners be put to death! Some were not even guilty of murder; some were guilty of nothing more than adultery.
Hmmm....if you're against the culture of death, then wouldn't you also be against some of Gods commands?

Darick, Lon, and Christian Lib
Darick, I agree completely with your post of 10:54, except on Olbermann.

I have no use for Bill O'Reilly or Keith Olbermann.

In fact, they deserve each other, and it would be fitting they spend eternity in each other's company...in Hell.

But your point about Bush's ever evolving rationalization for this war is valid. Whenever one rationalization is proved to be false, he just trots out another.

Lon says; "I am certainly not a pacifist myself. The fact that we should avoid stupid wars like the one in Iraq should not be taken as a sign that we should reject all wars".

I agree fully.

Christianlib, extremely well argued, if a bit wordy(a sin of which I often am guilty).

Even before 9/11, Bush meant to do Iraq.

He would have found an excuse, no matter what.

9/11 merely provided the opportunity within the administration to cynically divert the rage among Americans toward the perpetrators of 9/11, and channel it to Saddam who had nothing whatsover to do with the attack, and in fact was a secular despot despised by bin Laden.

Christianlib, you have laid out a well-argued, comprehensive, fact-based, critique of the misuse of just war by this administration to justify Iraq.

Have a cigar.

JUST WONDERING
Believe it or not, I consider myself to be pro-life. But is it possible to have one discussion about the Iraq war (don't forget, the author chose this topic) without some right wing kook bringing up abortion?

OLBERMANN ROCKS

christianlib - why against death penalty
Are you saying Christians cannot be for the dealth penalty when a person has murdered a human being in cold blood?

Where is your support for this in the Christian Bible? I cannot find this argument in my Bible.

I notice you claim you are pro-life. Do you agree that abortion is murder if the unborn child has a brain wave or heart beat?



Ezekiel 25:17
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the tyranny and inequities of evil men. Blessed is he who in the name of charity and good will shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost souls."

Ezekiel 25:17

Darick the left wing idiot
Sorry you left wingers cannot understand a simple concept like, How can you be opposed to killing civilians in a war but you are not opposed to killing unborn children in peacetime?

Right wingers understand the concepts of "necessary war" and "casualties of war" and reject the concept of "woman's right to choose to kill their unborn child". Apparently, you "useful idiot" per Stalin refuse to understand such things.

LAZYEYE
Let's discuss your understandable rage, though probably sactimonious and self righteous, concerning Saddam's genocide of his own people. Are you also disturbed that we (the U. S.) provided many weapons that he used to carry out his atrocities? Are you angry that our government was well aware of his actions with these weapons? Are you pi$$ed that one of the chief mediators in the weapons transaction now writes a column for townhall?

If I provide a firearm to someone while knowing their intent is to murder you, I'm just as culpable as they are. Tell me Lazyeye, what should be done to the American born co-conspirators of Saddam's genocidal rampage?

OLBERMANN ROCKS.

Dear Ira


Your accusations fall short.

It's not arguable anymore that the attacks on 9-11 were planned and efficiently carried out as apart of the global strategy of al Qaeda.

You sit in the safety of your home or office, only because no succeeding attacks have been successful. We can easily see, those who aren't blinded by Bush-hatred, the Patriot Act and new Dept. of Homeland Security stopped these events by anticipation. Not by luck.

It's a global JIHAD, Ira. Meaning holy war; according to the very enemies we're fighting. Iraq was only one theater of that war; certainly an important one. We didn't choose to fight it, they did. Don't snap at the hand that protects you from slaughter. Open your eyes.

Blathering, blathering, blathering...
WMD were shipped to Syria covertly by the Russians. Check it out! As for war, some of you need to read the Bible instead of blathering your own opinions and what YOU think things are. It is a battle between good and evil in one form or other from the moment we take our first breath until the moment we take our last. God in the old testament said to kill the women and children along with the men because he knew that the women would raise the children to hate, resent, and kill for generations (just like we have in the Middle East) and there would never be peace. They were also idol worshippers. Furthermore, when He comes, He will come with a flaming sword to destroy evil doers. Get real! Read His word instead of expounding on your ignorant opinions!

Darick the abortion holocaust supporter
You criticize Lazyeye and Oliver North for making a mistake in arming Saddam in his war agains Iran (where the US MILITARY goal was to neutralize Iran - not build up Iraq) AND YET you support a woman's right to choose to MURDER her unborn child (currently more than 40,000,000 children have been hacked to death in the USA alone).

and YOU have the audacity to criticize Oliver North and Lazyeye. WOW! Talk about useful idiots, Stalin underestimated you.

Jerabaub
Your critisism of Olbermann is appreciated (maybe even justified). But Olbermann is the most vocal advocate of holding Bush responsible for this Iraqi fiasco. He's done, and continues to do, what many in the media refused to do leading up to the war.

So I'll concede that he's sometimes a frothing lunatic, but he's a principled frothing lunatic.

OLBERMANN ROCKS

leaves __ME__ wondering


A Darick-like humanoid leaves me wondering:


Subject: JUST WONDERING
Believe it or not, I consider myself to be pro-life. But is it possible to have one discussion about the Iraq war (don't forget, the author chose this topic) without some right wing kook bringing up abortion?

OLBERMANN ROCKS . . . . "

Abortion is a greater tragdy than the Iraq war, IMHO.

Who says the discussion must be guided solely by you; who decided as well "right-wing kooks" bring up abortion? Let the leader lead.

You are no leader if Olbermann doesn't turn you off. That alone tells the story about you.

War is just war!
That so many of you 6,000 year old planet earth believers still insist on believing that Saddamn had WMDs, against the very post-war fact that there were not any, just goes to show that there is no difference between you and dudes believing in 72 women as a divine reward!

Why don't you "Christians," Muslims, Judaists, all of the "children of Abraham," just turn into Buddhists and spare us your warmongering in the name of God; alas, the literal interpretation of Jesus coming down and lopping off heads with his flaming sword has become as wearisome as its nigh unto 2000 year history of repeated use in justifying war.

Crusades, lesser jihad, "holy" wars . . .

You are all the same.

In war nobody is a civilian, as perfectly exemplified when the U.S. dropped nuclear bombs on Japan; bang, in the flash of an eye untold thousands perished; men, women, and children.

So you people just keep on killing and making murderers of our children; but a murderer is a murderer, be it the president that orders it, the jet fighter dropping bombs/shooting missiles, to the grunts, "special" forces, and private mercenaries doing the up close murdering.

You want the enemy go look in a mirror.

pax vobiscum

I respect u, a thinking man
jerabaub writes: 11:26 AM EST
Subject: talent scout
Saddam was always on Saddam's side. No one else's.
====
ts:
Saddam was an outlaw in the eyes of the entire world.
Saddam supported, trained, financed and armed terrorists.
A criminal against the laws of God and men.
He had no part in planning 911 and I agree.
But he fully supported such an attack on innocent people.
Its what he does, or did, now paying for it according to the laws of nature, that cannot be abolished and in the hands of his Creator.
The one over us all, and all for the death penalty on evil men.
Doubt that?
Read the Law of Moses, He gave it.
Anyone who thinks those Laws have been changed are just ignorant of God and His Powers in this world.
As Jesus Himself said of the Law:
"not one jot or one tittle of the law shall fail"
The Laws of God are above men, even if they think they control the law, they do not.
The Divine Justice works above men, and He alone decides the course nations come to when they transgress His Laws.
We will see much more WAR in the days to come.
Its in the Law of Nature and Natures God.
Not you not me has any say in how it all unfolds in God's own plan.
Who is above the President and Congress and works His own Will all the while men argue and debate over issues decided by a Higher Power.

continued...







brett
a majority of Christian denominations have declared the death penalty immoral.

it is like slavery.

i can find many arguments for slavery in the bible in fact most southern churches in the pre-civil war era did in fact justify slavery with biblical scripture.

but most Chrisitians saw that slavery was immoral.

the same thing with the death penalty.

Christianlib ... against the death
So, then, a majority of Christian denominations are at odds with the commands given in the Bible?


empyrius the ostrich
Get your head out of the denial sand.

The AP reported LAST MONTH that the US moved over 500 TONS of yellow cake uranium from IRAQ to CANADA last week. Saddam could have refined this yellow cake to make over 50 NUCLEAR bombs.

Here's the link:

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=3003235778 77918

You keep lying empyrisu and people will die from a nuclear attack.


WWJB
I've seen these bumper stickers asking "Who Would Jesus Bomb". My immediate thought has always been: Jesus would stand between evil and the innocent. It's pretty clear that terrorism is evil. It's pretty clear that Saddam's actions were evil (not to mention his offspring) and that he not only terrorized his own people, but was a terror enabler. The US (and our staunchest allies) seem to be the only ones who will stand between evil and the innocent. Given very earthly political considerations (such as Saddam's known pursuit of WMD, his known ties with terror, and his violation of the UN and the ceasefire which in and of themselves bolstered Islamofacist confidence that the West is a toothless tiger), Iraq was a good place to make a stand. Would Iran have been better? Well, maybe, but the political considerations, especially the fact that Saddam was already in violation of the UN 17 times and of the ceasefire, made Iraq the first place to make the stand (after Afghanistan, which was really obvious).

BRETT
Only a right wing propagandist could relegate a blogger to being "left wing" after he has stated he's pro-life. Sorry if I'm not pro-life enough for you buddy.

And Ollie North and his superiors (maybe including Reagan) engaged in calculated and systematic operations to arm a homicidal maniac with weapons even after intelligence disclosed his genocidal actions. To say it was a "mistake" reflects your attitude toward human life. My point to Lazyeye was if you're not going to hold Saddam's American co-conspirators accountable, then drop your fake indignation about Saddam murdering his people.

And I still wish right wingers could focus on other injustices without bringing abortion into every equation.

OLBERMANN ROCKS

P. S. Brett, when the time comes, I'll be more than happy to discuss my views concerning abortion. And when that time comes, not once will I mention the Iraq war. I promise.