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Sunday, July 22, 2007
Frank Pastore :: Townhall.com Columnist
Why Al Qaeda Supports the Emergent Church
by Frank Pastore
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The greatest threat to world peace is radical Islam. If not for the United States, millions more would be suffering under the tyranny of sharia law all over the world. Our Muslim enemies know post-Christian Europe has already lost the will to fight. Africa, Asia, and South America seem to be already lost. Russia, China, and India would rather trade than fight…for now. And the United Nations continues to be irrelevant.

Only the United States, and more specifically, only the conservative, evangelical Christians of America are who stand between radical Islam and their quest for global domination.

If the world is to be saved from Muslim conquest, it will be America who does it. And if America is to be saved, only conservatism can do it. And if conservatism is to be saved, it will be those Bible-believing patriots who do it–those conservative, evangelical Christians who are the bedrock of the American way of life.

Why? Because only Christianity has the intellectual and spiritual horsepower to defeat radical Islam and prevent the world from returning to the darkness of the 7th century. After all, the story of the birth and growth of Western Civilization is pretty much the story of the birth and growth of Christianity. The divide between East and West today, fundamentally, is the divide between Islam and Christianity. Christians and Muslims know this, it’s the secularists who don’t get it–or at least won’t admit it.

That’s why anything that helps to further separate the West from its Biblical roots ultimately weakens the resolve of the West to fight. Anything that helps the ACLU to further de-Christianize America, to further silence the Christian voice like the current hate-crimes legislation or the fairness doctrine, and to further weaken the Church and devalue the Bible as the religious left has done for decades, are things that empower our enemies and weaken our allies.

A post-Christian, post-modern, secular-socialist America will be no match for a radical Islam fueled by petro-dollars and threatening the use of nuclear weapons.

But an America where the church is strong, resolute, and courageous? That’s a different thing altogether.

Which is why al Qaeda supports the emergent church.

The emergent church is an ally in the war against radical Islam–al Qaeda’s ally. Not in the sense they are supplying bullets and bombs to Osama, of course, but in the sense they are weakening our conviction to fight.

If those in the emergent “we’re-a-missional-not-an-institutional” church had their way, American church buildings would be just like European church buildings – empty. And the church, the people themselves, would be so intellectually, morally, emotionally, and spiritually lost, confused and uncertain, that they would be incapable of doing hardly anything more than inviting their Muslim oppressors in for a cappuccino and a good conversation about the sociology of knowledge, the absurdity of propositional truth, and the misplaced certitude of the Muslim metanarrative. All the while, no doubt, nodding in agreement that America probably deserved to die and mumbling something about carbon footprints.

The term “emergent church” refers to a loose association of people who share common values and attitudes toward, well, everything. It’s Christianity for postmoderns who don’t like truth, knowledge, science, authority, doctrine, institutions, or religion. They claim absolute or objective truth is unknowable, that the only “truth” that can be known is rooted in communities of shared subjective experience–the infamous “it’s my truth” of relativism.

And if nothing is objectively true, if no text has a meaning independent of the reader, then the truth claims in the Bible are no more authoritative than the funny papers. Hence, there’s no emphasis on core beliefs, essential doctrines, statements of faith or the institutions built to defend and propagate them–especially the institutional church and its Bible colleges and seminaries.

Bottom line, it’s feelings over thoughts, the heart over the head, experience over truth, deeds over creeds, narratives over propositions, the corporate over the individualistic, being inclusive rather than exclusive, with none of that offensive “in versus out” language, such as those who are “saved” and those who are “not saved,” or even the most divisive of all referents–“Christian” and “non-Christian.”

The emergent church and its allies on the religious left are to Christianity what termites are to wood. They devour it from the inside out, little bit by little bit, and you don’t notice it until it’s too late–unless you look for the droppings.

They’re leaving lots of droppings if you only have eyes to see.

The emergent church has rejected the “linear” and “modern” categories of true/false, good/evil, and right/wrong, and they recoil at the notion of applying these terms to Christianity or any other faith tradition–even radical Islam. To believe Christianity is true, good, and right is divisive, offensive, and well, rude and anti-conversational.

It’s time to call these people out from the shadows and expose them to the light of public scrutiny.

Their unwillingness to distinguish truth from error, right from wrong, and good from evil leave them intellectually immobilized to resist the encroachment of false teaching and heresy, and even incapable of knowing the good guys from the bad guys in the war for the free world.

The whole point of terrorism is to destroy the will of the enemy to fight.

Whose side are they on, anyway?

What Yogi Berra said about baseball is true of this war against radical Islam: “Half this game is 90% mental.”

Yogi knew this. Osama knows this. I wonder if the “emergents” do?

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About The Author
The Frank Pastore Show is heard in Los Angeles weekday afternoons on 99.5 KKLA and on the web at kkla.com, and is the winner of the 2006 National Religious Broadcasters Talk Show of the Year. Frank is a former major league pitcher with graduate degrees in both philosophy of religion and political philosophy.
 
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Connecting the Dots
It’s amusing to me to watch the left blow a gasket whenever someone brings up the relationship between Saddam and Al Qaeda. The first thing you hear is how there wasn’t one; they hated each other, blah, blah, blah.

But the point is they did have a connection, many in fact. 1) They were both Sunni – that alone, goes a long way in the muslim world. 2) They both had a visceral hatred for America and Israel (my enemy of my enemy) 3) They both have gone on record threatening harm to both America and Israel. 4) They both have an ideology of hate. 5) They both have paid third parties to be suicide bombers.

When you start to connect the dots, the picture becomes pretty clear. (Wasn’t that the most critical part of the 911 commission report – we failed to use our imagination and connect the dots?). It doesn’t take much imagination to see the future with Saddam and his psycho killer sons still in power.

Of course, if you let some of our usual ship of fools, like Roberto, Shallow Hal, sillyLilly, SteveLoser, Shallow HalO, KimberKumbaya, Libturdy, (the list is too long), if you let the libtards connect the dots, it would go something like this:

Hey, this looks like a ..D.. yea, I’ve found an ..A.. ooh, ooh, here’s a ..N.. this looks like a ..G.. I’ve got a ..E.. here’s an ..R..

OK, let’s put it all together and see what we have: ..NO PROBLEM..

One of, if not THE, most PROFOUND

aticles I've read on TH in a VERY LONG time!

Excellent! Well written!

Unfortunately, Boromir's Horn is right. It won't be long before the libs he mentioned (and more) will be swarming here, and the thread will deteriorate...

But, anyone with an ounce of common sense, and the ability to acutally connect the dots, will know that Pastore hit the nail on the head, and every word he wrote is the TRUTH!

God help us! We need to remember Pastore's words.




Anne
Why do you think TH hid this article and didn't put it as one of it's headliners?

Boromir's Horn; :-)
Good point!

I've already emailed this article to several friends.


Anne
Well, hopefully it was nothing more than Frank didn't submit in time and they'll post it again tomorrow. I agree with you, Frank makes some excellent points and it would be a shame to not get this message out to the masses.

THANKS FOR THE MATERIAL FRANKIE
Mr. Pastore, I've already printed off several copies of this article. I'm running low on toilet tissue, and your column serves as a worthy substitute.

Boromir's Horn: They're HEEEEERE!

Wouldn't be too bad if they could have an intelligent, knowledeable debate or discussion.

But noooo, vile, foul, vitriolic, hateful posts is all they have....

Never ceases to amaze just how appalling, despicable, loathsome, and contemptible these people are.





Hello Anne
I see we've visited our online thesaurus this morning, haven't we?

Hate crime laws silence Christians ...
... who dare to criticism Muslims. The Australian state of Victoria is run by Labor, the Australian equivalent of the Dems, and they imposed an "anti-vilification" law. Already two Christian pastors were hauled through the courts by an alliance of government and Muslims who claimed to be "offended" by the pastors. Wait for it, the "offences" included reading from the Koran, and making the audience laugh!

The pastors appealed semi-successfully (see http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2006/12/14/the-two-dannys-casethe-best-possible-outcome/), but even the threat of going through what they went through would put off many Christians from speaking out. And of course, this law would never be used against Muslims who vilify Christians or Jews.

Olberman Rocks
Congratulations on your 15th birthday. Mommy and Daddy buy you a new PC or are you still using the one in their basement?

Perfect summary
TH should place this article higher. It is a perfect explanation of the current American cultural divide. One side is terrified of the consequences of not placing radical islam at the top of the nation's agenda.The otherside seems much more terrified of Americans who don't fully accept gay marriage, Americans who challenge the so-called science of global warming/cooling than Islamic terrorists simply executing plans which they have so generously shared with us. REad Bin Laden, Iranian President Ahmadinejad. The left will never defend that which they are seeking to destroy... evil, homophobic, racist, mysogynist America. The only thing between modernity and 7th century un-civilization are Americans who actually believe in this country, warts and all--- and are will to fight for it.

Even some Muslims don't like hate crimes
Amir Butler, executive director of the Australian Muslim Public Affairs Committee, wrote against this asinine anti-vilification bill. See "Warning from Australia: don’t legislate against hate:
An Australian Muslim says that Victoria's laws against incitement to religious hatred have sown division, and undermined freedom of speech, thought and conscience." http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/767/

jono64a
We have the same thing in America, where the ACLU and CAIR are allies in the war against America. We never hear the ACLU speak out when the gun grabbers attack the Second Amendment or when the libscum attack the Constitution as a whole but call a Muslim a raghead and it's off to Siberia with you.

Olbermoron reeks: Actually, I didn't

have to visit anywhere... :-) But YOU must have been impressed!

See, we Conservatives are actually pretty smart. In fact, we're a LOT smarter than you libs... and certainly have a much better knowledge and command of the English language.

You can tell this by the lack of quality and content of any liberal post.








jono64a
"sown division, and undermined freedom of speech, thought and conscience."

THAT is the goal of liberals. Hitlary and Bubba Klintoon are masters of this type of class warfare.

Hey GunnyG: :-)
.

Olbermann sucks
Here is a story on your hero.

http://noliberalspin.townhall.com/g/aa81e896-82c7-4560-a48a-23d0285ed5d8

Evidently he suffers from H.U.A.

Anne
Nothing like ripping on libscum and muslims on a nice Sunday morning!

GunnyG
Unfortunately, we have a few on our side of the fence, Arlen Sphincter comes readily to mind.

This Article Is Right On
Notice, the only enemies the pagan left are willing to truely do harm to are the ones that can't take retribution against them. That is unborn people and Bible believing Christians.

Boromir's Horn
Yeah, we have a few RINO's like ar-nuld and Guiliani but we DID survey scumbag Bloomberg. A step in the right direction.

Hey Gunn, Did you see my post on

your blog? :-)




Speaking of the Bible....
Mr. Pastore.....

"You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. "

Post an article about being a peacemaker instead of a warmonger and about loving your enemies instead of killing them and I will take you seriously as the spokesman for Christ you are pretending to be. Until then I consider you and your so-called "Conservative Evangelical Christians" to be worse enemies of the gospel than the Emerging Church.

GUNNY G AND ANNE
Thank you Gunny for your kindness in wishing me a happy 15 birthday. You're 23 years too late, but there should be no statute of limitations when well wishing is involved. BTW Gunny, congratulations on not using your first post as a self serving advertisement for your blog. You're improving.

Anne, I appreciate your factual, statistically supported proclamation about conservatives intellectual superiority over liberals. Being that this is a verified and irrefutable truth, there's no need to remind me (or yourself) of this in the future.

No True Scotsman
The no true Scotsman fallacy can be exampled as follows:*

Macdougal: You know, laddie, no Scotsman puts sugar in his porridge.
You: Is that so? I seem to recall my cousin Angus puts sugar in his porridge.
Macdougal: Ah... but no true Scotsman puts sugar in his porridge.

That's all Frank Pastore is arguing here, no true Christian, no true conservative. Naturally, those who accept his definitions, applaud, and those who reject them, argue.

If we dismiss his fallacy we're left with the simple fact Christians contest what it means to be Christian and conservatives what it means to be conservative.

This has been the case since the beginning of the modern conservative movement--I refer you to Nash's _The Conservative Intellectual Movement in America_ if you need a refresher.

You have late comers to the movement, the traditionalists, or new conservatives, then, as today, ex-libs, ex-socialists, ex-Troskyites, today's social cons and neo-cons, all arguing the purpose of government is to promote this or that virtue and value, depending on which social gospel you happen to believe, even if it meands coercing those virtues and values against individual liberty, rights and responsibilties.

Personally I stand with the originators of the movement, the individualists, Mises, Hayek, Rand, today's fiscal conservatives and libertarians, who argue against any coercive purpose of government, whose only purpose is to protect individual rights, you know, those great moral absolutes like life, liberty, property.

As a skeptical conservative, like those early individualists, I reject Pastore's no-true-Scotsman fallacy, and stand against any quest for domination, be it religious or socialist, and for individual liberty. Radical Islam must be stopped at any cost. Give me liberty or give me death seems appropriate.


* See http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?NoTrueScotsman, or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

RA, PLEASE EXPLAIN.
RA writes: "Notice, the only enemies the pagan left are willing to truely do harm to are the ones that can't take retribution against them. That is unborn people and Bible believing Christians".

Olb. Rocks: Now I can understand how bible believing Christians may take retribution, but what type of revenge can an unborn baby (fetus) exact?

P.S. BTW, I am pro life.

olbermoron reeks: Your welcome!

Happy to be of help!

And of course you know that it's a verified and irrefutable truth... We see it all the time with the lib's lack of quality and content, and complete lack of logic and reasonable thought process. (Believe me, no one can honestly accuse any lib of being logical when their thought sequences are: 3, 1, M, #, 10000, Africa,....)

Here's an example:
With a dumbo Congressional 14% approval rating, which equates of course to an 86% DISAPPROVAL rating, Reprehensible Reid announced that Chuckie Shumer has assured him that they're gaining new seats in Congress next election.

As long as you don't post ridiculous comments that clearly indicate that you need reminding.






Nice work, anne!
"Wouldn't be too bad if they could have an intelligent, knowledeable debate or discussion.

But noooo, vile, foul, vitriolic, hateful posts is all they have....

Never ceases to amaze just how appalling, despicable, loathsome, and contemptible these people are."

Such a loving, compassion-filled, reasonable--dare I say?--"christian" post!

Way to go, Anne. Show us you godbots do it!

MellorSJ2: Simply stating FACTS! :-)
But, I clearly hit a nerve there, didn't I? LOL

Gee, why don't you go back and read the vile, vitriolic, hateful liberal posts to which I was referring.

THAT might be a good idea!








MRS. ANNIE
I'm enjoying the dialogue. Why wouldn't I? Whenever I talk to conservatives, my I. Q. immediately jumps. You know, I consulted the townhall dictionary, and the definitions tend to support you conservative superiority claim. A few definitions.

*Logic - Of or in accordance with right wing thought.
*Christ - Divine Being belonging exclusively to Americans of Anglo descent affiliated with the GOP.
*Reasonable Thought - Original thought derived from the Neocon talking points.
*Irrational - Thoughts or actions independent of Right wing talking points, even if based upon facts.
*Savior - The anointed one, better known as George W. Bush.

Annie writes: "With a dumbo Congressional 14% approval rating, which equates of course to an 86% DISAPPROVAL rating".
Olb. Rocks: What if you have surveyees who didn't have an opinion either way. Maybe 20% of respondents neither approve or disapprove of Reid's performance. Yep Annie, A 14% approval rating doesn't necessarily translate to an 86% disapproval rating. But then again, maybe you referenced the townhall dictionary before your post.

WOW. I feel smarter already.

Numbers
I keep coming back to this statement by Pastore: "If the world is to be saved from Muslim conquest, it will be America who does it. And if America is to be saved, only conservatism can do it. And if conservatism is to be saved, it will be those Bible-believing patriots who do it–those conservative, evangelical Christians who are the bedrock of the American way of life."

According to 2001 figures, evangelicals comprised 0.5% of the American population, roughly over a million, regardless if conservative or liberal.*

Current US population sits at 301,139,947. So, 0.5% yields approximately 1.5 million evangelicals.

That sort of discounts the arrogant claim of being the bedrock of the American way of life.

If evangelicalism is the bedrock we as a nation form an inverted pyramid resting precariously on a pin point!


* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States, originally from http://www.gc.cuny.edu/faculty/research_briefs/aris/key_findings.htm

Well I Can Sleep Soundly...
...knowing that the US, well at least the devout Christian ones, is keeping all us Godless secularists safe from these evil Muslims who wish to rule us!!!
This is probably the most inane article I've read on these pages.
I've asked this question many times and have yet to be given a decent answer, how exactly are a rag tag bunch of maniacs with a few, thankfully ineffective, homemade bombs going to take over the world?

Liberals.
Anne writes: Sunday, July, 22, 2007 10:36 AM
Boromir's Horn: They're HEEEEERE!

I usually like to read "intelligent liberal" views. Most of the time their ignorance is good for a laugh. Lately I noticed they do'nt even try. They just revert to insults.

eddred

eddred says:
>>>
This clown and Doug Viles and their type are much closer to the "false prophets"...
>>>

Say, eddie, if this 'clown' and 'Doug Viles' are false prophets, why then, are you reading their columns at all? Don't you have better things to do than waste time here at TH reading lies?

vespanat

vespanat wants to know:
>>>
"how exactly are a rag tag bunch of maniacs with a few, thankfully ineffective, homemade bombs going to take over the world?"
>>>

The same way the pygmy ate the elephant... one bite at a time.

Pastore's screed
Not that I am a big fan of the Emerging Church (which Pastore has described only half-accurately in order to advance his own argument...a tactic which Hamas or bin Ladin would surely approve of).

But in what way is the typical American megachurch, which dishes out mushy-headed mini-faith to its SUV-driving twice-divorced Starbuck's-addicted minions, in any way relevant to the resistance against Islamofascism? The average American babyboomer Christian is in no more equipped to deal with the problem than the Emergents.

kcincognito: Oh, get real!

Do you really think that anyone is going to waste their time reading your incoherent lies, rants, and propaganda?

If you do, you're dumber than we thought!





SIJ6141: You're right! I'm beginning

to see a direct correlation between the degree of flaming insanity, hatred, and insults with how close a blogger and/or poster has hit a nerve!

We knew Pastore's column would make them ca-razy! And, we were right!








Michael Kilpatrick
I agree with you the nation was founded to be a free market representative republic.

Rest of your opinions, in one way or another, contradict that.

ANNIE IS BACK
My cup runneth over. Now I can partake in more conservative intellectualism.

You know Annie, not only are you smart, but you'd make an excellent cheerleader too. You boo the visiting team (liberals) by constantly insulting them, while cheering the home team (conservatives), regardless of how lousy their game (dialogue).

My only regret is that there's no way for you to make computer entries while still holding your pom-poms. Keep up the good work.

Respectfully, Olberman (with 1 n) Rocks.

BIRDMAN: That sounds EXACTLY like

an inane, ridiculous question that vespanat would ask.

vespanat is either dumber than a bag of hammers, or acts like it... But, as time goes on, he seems to be doing much too good a job of "acting like it" so we're beginning to believe that he really IS dumber than a bag of hammers!

:-)



Emerging Madness
I'm pretty sure Al Qaeda doesn't support anybody but themselves and their agenda. You're giving them too much credit Pastore...

kcincognito
I'm here to defend Anne. How can you demean a woman as intellectually gifted as she? You know she MUST to be a wise woman. Why else would she state her brilliant and clever credentials every other post, while simutaneously reminding liberals of their mental shortcomings?

If you still doubt that she's wise, wait a couple of posts. She'll be back on to remind you.

So,
the salvation of America is in the hands of those that believe in "cheap" salvation.

That's scary

Well, the psychopaths are out in force!

Someone must have hit a nerve! Hmmm. Must have been me! LOL

The only thing crazier than a crazy person, is hanging round crazy people.



EXCELLENT COLUMN, FRANK!


I'm out of here.


my 2 cents
WILL YOU KIDS STOP YOUR FIGHTING FOR JUST A MINUTE?!?!?!

one minute - that's all I ask.

Sam Harris

(from the right: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!)

(From the left: YEAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!)

On September 8 of last year Sam Harris wrote a piece that was published in the L.A. Times that was entitled "Head-in-the-Sand-Liberals" and the article was in reference to the left's inablility to understand, accept, realize, whatever - the simple fact that we are ALL in danger from muslim extremists and their culture of death. For those of you who can read and are interested in intelligent discussions I recommend it for the rest of you who seem to get your jollies by flinging the word 'GOTCHA!!!' through cyberspace at your ideological enemies it wouldn't make any difference.

You know who you are.

P.S. - Please - grow up.

Tolerance is Killing America
America was founded upon and made great by high morals and standards. Every time we accept something which is below our own morals, we are in effect lowering our morals. And to make along story short, if you hang around the barber shop long enough, you will get a haircut. The same thing happened to Rome.

Why Al Qaeda Supports the Emergent Churc
So if I understand the author correctly he does not want my help in fighting Al-Qudia, unless I share his politacal and religious views.That is very strange.

WOW; the essence of hatred is painful to
Uncle Max:

As I "flipped" through all the posts, I couldn't help feeling sick to my stomach. It seems to me that almost without exception, (yours being the exception) everyone seems to glory in taking extreme positions, both the RIGHT and the LEFT.

Those who use religion seem to believe that unless one supports their brand of religion they are lower on the scale that snails.

Those on the left can only SEE the RIGHT's position as the blind-leading-the-blind.

So we have people claiming to be Christians calling their "opponents" RACA (check Matt 5:22).

Their "eneimies" (the left) are equally guilty of disparaging anyone who doesn't hate President Bush.

I hope that the time will come when all of us remember that we have a common, glorious Father, and that we are brothers and sisters; yes, even the Muslims.

We have to be willing to stand for freedom and oppose those who would deny us this God given blessing. And, there comes a time when this requires the shedding of blood, as painful as that may be.

We live in the most blessed nation the world has seen (unless you consider Enoch?) at a time when there are more opportunities to teach, learn and to share our blessings. Having lived during the great depression (great is an unfortunate description, but most people recognize it that way) and seeing my parents having to resort to meals of bread and milk for their six sons, and seeing my mother cry because she couldn't find food for her children, I can only say as Uncle max so kindly says;

IT'S TIME TO GROW UP!

Logical discussion is wonderful; what I've seen on this thread makes me fear for the future of this nation. Note; I have not called anyone a vicious name and I hope to be able to disgree with anyone with mutual respect.

God bless this nation; I hope each of you will join me in saying,"I love all mankind, even those who would disparage or harm me!"

Although I don't like to judge a book by
its cover, anyone who chooses "Olberman Rocks" as a username is going to have to work extra hard to convince me there's much in the way of critical thinking skills under the hood.

True to form, he took the discussion south within milliseconds, rather than engaging in anything even remotely resembling a cogent and well-reasoned critique.

Let's see: name calling and references feces removal. Nicely done, sir. May I venture a guess that debate was not one of your educational pursuits?

I'm afraid OR has succeeded in doing little more than confirming the stereotype once again: sometimes, you *can* judge a book by its cover.

Just to say I am here
Wow! All this happened in one day? I just saw Frank at church this morning.

But anyways, I think that this article shouldn't be blasted by liberals at this point. Take this as a warning. I know the minds of radical Muslims because my parents just happened to come from Iraq and Syria. These people, these killers, these rapists, these theives, they deserve death. But some idiots in Congress, well they don't want to kill them they want them to live. WHAT SO THEY CAN COME KILL US?

I have had relatives killed by these radicals, and I have relatives who are in harms way right now. So I am not just talking from a political stand point, I am talkiung from a personal stand point. They are out to take over the world and if it comes down to Christians only, who have to stand against them, let it be. We will stand against them and in the end we will be victorious because we have the Lord by our side.

And if you don't want me to bring God into this, well you can just shutup. God was in this before you ever came into being. They are after us (Christians and even Jews) because we have a God that goes directly against their own. Besides all this turmoil that we are seeing in the Middle East has already been fortold in Revelation. Don't believe me just look it up.

Oh, by the way postmodernism is very dangerous. There is an absolute truth, and I am afraid that for most it will be too late when they find it out.The absolute truth in this situation is that al Qaeda does want to take over the world through Islam. I have seen it already taken place when I travelled in Europe after 9/11. Everywhere we went there were Muslims who told us that they have practically taken over cities. My mom ran into one in Paris who said, "Europe is ours.". My mom was out of that hotel in a flash. Here is a fact for you as well last year the number one given name for boys in Great Britain was Muhammed.

One day I want to get married and have children, but I don't want to name them any Islamic name, I don't want them to pray to Allah seven times a day, I don't want my daughter or myself to wear a veil over our head, and I don't want my son to strap a bomb to himself and kill others in the name of Allah to go to "paradise".
So I am going to fight till my last breath before I let them invade my country and take away my rights.

Both sides I am talking to you, shut your mouths and fight, before everything is gone because the threat is real.

But just to get back at the Demis, your idiodic views are making our beautiful soldiers in Iraq die in vain. Shame on you.

Hey GunnyG what is wrong with teenagers? I happen to be 16 years old myself.

kcincognito
Thanks for once again proving that the left has perfected cut & paste to an art form.

Honestly, this is not the place for a 5000-word 6-part manifesto (yeah, I actually did a word count). Get a blog or learn that brevity can go a long way towards making your points more strongly.

You're wasting bandwidth here...but then again, maybe that was your objective.

HEY NEVEDAMISTERMOM
I am going to stick the subject unlike others. I am here to show people and to agree with Frank that there is an uprise in people who don't want to choose a side on beliefs and who can't even discern right from wrong. These people are making a perfect path for al Qaeda to take over. Being so politically correct is going to get this country in a lot of well ( I am going to keep it clean) junk.Not offending Muslims is quite simpleton like of people. They want to kill me because I am an "infidel". But postmodernists would like me to forget this fact. I will not forget and I ask all out there to read the Quran if you don't believe me. You might find out that they are after you too.

To get off subject for just a second because I wish to, making fun of the fact that a 16 year old girl can write better than you is sad, don't you think?

Oldermans Socks
Who names themselves after an article of clothing anyway? What, do you have a foot fetish or something?

Hey Gabby
You are wrong to a certain degree. I know a Muslim couple and I believe that they ought to have more rights in this country than some of the liberals that we have here. This couple is also one of the nicest couples I know. All they show is love to everyone.

Before you go jugding an entire people, actually look at the entire people. Maybe 10 percent can be an added bonus to this country.

And being a Christian myself I don't believe that Mohammed was anything close to a good guy. I know some pretty bad stories about him. And the religion he started was as bad, and I don't think Frank would disagree on that.

His Love
What led you to believe that I disagree with Pastore? Perhaps you should re-read my posts. I didn't care to wade in directly on this issue, but it does get tiring to see people simply sniping at commentators like Pastore without taking the time to systematically critique him. I guess it is easier to just do the drive-by stuff that Olberman Rocks favors, or the 28,000 character cut-and-paste manifestos that kcincognito prefers.

I happen to be an evangelical Christian. I also happen to believe that Islam is a fundamentally dangerous belief system because unlike Christianity, it mandates that its practitioners kill those whom it considers to be "infidels." We can talk about "radical" vs. "moderate" all we like, but the truth is that the Quran makes hate a virtue and killing a practice that is to be rewarded, not condemned. I don't hate muslims, but I find their belief system scary because it is not a religion of peace. If muslims really believe what their holy book teaches, it seems that killing infidels is an imperative, not a suggestion.

al qaeda vs the west
as long as libs compare christians to muslims and claims there is no difference in that both are equally violent one must ask exactly what do libs see as a danger. Libs seem unable to comprehend what the reformation was and what it meant to christianity. Until libs understand these are not idle threats coming from the muslims. That muslims believe their destiny is to destroy the west and unite the world under the law of sharia still escapes the liberal thinking. The wahhabists from saudia arabia are pushing the strictest interpretation of the koran and saudi money is spreading that message throughout the west. We will one day be at the crosswords where confrontations will occur. Muslims lack the ability to invade and destroy the west. Their only hope is the west surrenders rather than suffer other 9/11's. We will have to remain vigilent. We know they have planted terrorists in our midsts and they are mearly awaiting the signal to wreak havoc. The test will come in what our response will be after some terrorists act occurs. Libs claim they are not worried and that there is no way terrorism will occur here and that muslims only want to control their area of the world without any western interference. There is a coming war of civilizations. The question is do we have the fortitude to defend our way of life from those who seek to destroy the world in a misguided attempt to rule over all of mankind. Do we have the will and commitment to do the things necessary to both protect ourselves and destroy this dangerous enemy

kcincognito
Can you please do us all a favor, AND GET LOST!!!! Thank you.

Gabby started well
by quoting the author: ""It’s time to call these people out from the shadows and expose them to the light of public scrutiny...

...Their unwillingness to distinguish truth from error, right from wrong, and good from evil leave them intellectually immobilized to resist the encroachment of false teaching and heresy, and even incapable of knowing the good guys from the bad guys in the war for the free world..."

Ah, well, look in the mirror first and see who is unwilling "to distinguish the truth from error" and "right from wrong"."

Here, I'm thinking YEAH! But then I read: "Here is a WHOPPER of an error and a wrong committed by Pastore himself:

"The greatest threat to world peace is radical Islam."

The truth is that it ISN'T "radical" Islam which is the problem. IT IS ALL OF ISLAM ITSELF. Period."

Whoops! And I thought you were going to say IT'S ANY BUNCH OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE AN IMAGINARY FRIEND. Xians, for instance.

And then the piece-de-resistance: "It is a delusion to believe Islam is anywhere separate from its violent members, when it was its founder, Mohammed, who established the violence and connected it to the faith."

Oh right. What does this boil down to? My imaginary friend is better than your imaginary friend.

Gong! They're all the same. They're all dangerous. Hitchens was right: Religion poisons everything.

MellorSJ2
I will await with anticipation your empirical proof for the non-existence of God.

Then, I will await your recognition that Atheism is a religion, having its own set of beliefs, creeds, and manifestos, whether written or not, that compels it to contstantly tell everyone else that their beliefs are wrong.

In other words, exactly the same attribute that they accuse all other religions of having: namely, that their belief are the only right beliefs. The only real difference is that you assert NOT having an imaginary friend is better than having one. Even though you can't empirically prove the imaginary friend doesn't exist.

This is known as faith. Atheists display just as much of it as Christians, it is just channeled in a different direction. By faith, they await the grave to prove them right. Just as the Christain awaits this.

It's not that I hate atheists. It's that their arrogance and hypocrisy is so maddening.

And, although you are entitled to your opinion that all religions are dangerous, can you not see the inherent dangers in Atheism - or is it exempt because it happens to be *your* religion?

And could you please admit that some religions are more dangerous than others? Last time I checked, Christians did not have terrorist training camps nor were they flying fully-fueled commercial aircraft into buildings. Nor were they teaching that those who held dissimilar beliefs should be executed as infidels.

Rather, it seems to me they founded a country so that individuals like you would be free to speak your mind and choose your ideology.

kcincognito
As I said, get a blog. And please get serious. Nobody here is going to read 13 pages, even those who agree with you. The columnists here make their points quite succinctly, usually in 1000 words or less.

It is not unreasonable to expect a post to be less words than the column itself.

And in case you hadn't guessed, there will be no apologies forthcoming.

Finally, the phrase "when you are a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail" seems to have been penned with you in mind. Could you occassionally post on-topic rather than treating us to a continual litany of unibomber-like screeds against Bush? It's a pretty far reach from Pastore's topic to yet another "Bush lied, people died" tirade from you.

nevadamistermom writes
"I will await with anticipation your empirical proof for the non-existence of God."

It will not be forthcoming. No one can prove a negative.

However, it is exceedingly unlikely that your god (or Allah or Thor or Athena or...) exists, given the total lack of evidence.

"Then, I will await your recognition that Atheism is a religion, having its own set of beliefs, creeds, and manifestos, whether written or not, that compels it to contstantly tell everyone else that their beliefs are wrong."

This will not be forthcoming either. There is no capital-A in "atheism." Atheism is merely the recognition of my comment above. I merely believe in one fewer god than you do.

I can't help it if you're wrong. Nor, in fact, do I care. Unless and until your myths affect (or attempt to affect) public policy.

"In other words, exactly the same attribute that they accuse all other religions of having: namely, that their belief are the only right beliefs. The only real difference is that you assert NOT having an imaginary friend is better than having one

Show me that your friend is not imaginary (go on Oprah, perhaps?), and I shall believe the evidence of my own eyes.

I think it fair to say that acting on the facts given to us by reality is better than acting on fantasys such as, say, crystal healing, or that the earth is flat, or that some people (comfortably long ago) flew on horses. Don't you?

"Even though you can't empirically prove the imaginary friend doesn't exist.

This is known as faith. Atheists display just as much of it as Christians, it is just channeled in a different direction. By faith, they await the grave to prove them right. Just as the Christain awaits this."

Not for a minute. I do not "have faith" that your imaginary friend does not exist; I merely see no evidence for it. The best you lot can come up with is that reality does indeed appear to exist (and it is a wonderful thing); that some fellow wandered about c. 2K years muttering moderately sensible things; that your own book says it's true (so it must be!); and--my personal favorite now--just drink the Kool Aid and you'll belieeeeeve.

"It's not that I hate atheists. It's that their arrogance and hypocrisy is so maddening."

Tough.

"And, although you are entitled to your opinion that all religions are dangerous, can you not see the inherent dangers in Atheism - or is it exempt because it happens to be *your* religion?"

Danger has nothing to do with it. I see the danger in gravity when I drop a rock on my foot. Doesn't make it go away.

"And could you please admit that some religions are more dangerous than others? Last time I checked, Christians did not have terrorist training camps nor were they flying fully-fueled commercial aircraft into buildings. Nor were they teaching that those who held dissimilar beliefs should be executed as infidels."

Granted. Except for the Dominionists and Fred Phelps. Still doesn't make your imaginary friend pop into existence.

"Rather, it seems to me they founded a country so that individuals like you would be free to speak your mind and choose your ideology."

Lies. The country was founded half by people who believed in Christ and miracles and all that clap-trap and about half who merely accepted the wonder of the universe and called it "god."

Good Column Frank
I have commented in other places about the war, reminding again those who support any Demoncratic position about it or other issues (abortion, athieism, agnosticism etc.) just exactly which party their beloved Truman (the A Bomb president) belonged to. To count so far, it has only been democratic presidents who have used or ever came close (bay of pigs) to using this weapon, and under whose party's administration was this device created in the first place? It also was under Truman and party that created the 'citizen slave' organizations, namely, the IRS and Social Security system. These historic examples of failure by big government meddling show just how not to trust this party and any affiliations they have. Reagan tried to give us a true social security system, creating the privately owned, non-taxable 401K accounts, where we could actually receive the interest on monies we deposit there, and not as some windfall for the SS system. The IRS was corrupt from the start, in the very first year, Truman had to fire 166 IRS employees for corruption. And you trust this system today?? Dems have actually tried to repeal parts of the 401K, making the interest earned a taxable amount, but couldn't explain how these accounts could be adjusted for inflation without the interest...

Never the less, if these so called 'progressive' liberal minded thinkers acually learned anything in their history classes instead of making plans for the next toga party, or the next bong hit, then history wouldn't have to repeat itself.

Hmmm, and just why did the Japanese attack us at pearl harbor? could it be because the running scared dem party of Roosevelt refused to help the besieged Europeans against Hitler? Not until PH did the reluctant and cowardly FDR finally pour our resources into WWII. Japan was not willing to attack at first, but saw the political climate in America as naive and cowardly, and with assurances that Germany could weaken any further resolve our country had, stepped into their fatal mistake. We didn't need the A bomb then, we had 11 aircraft carrier groups mopping up and steaming toward Japan, in less than a year after the dishonorable bombing, the whole war would have been finished, by conventional means.

But the Dems had a new weapon, and wanting to display thier 'progressive' intellectual (thanks to a few german scientists) superiority to the world, they used it, opening the pandora's box we now live in. Thinking themselves so superior to even the scientists who were forced (either Truman or Hitler)to create it, who wanted nothing more than to create fission energy, they used it. And this is the party these self-called intellectuals want to belong to? And just who is the sheep that are following blindly?

I abhour this DNC calling themselves liberals, especially when history and thier actions claim different. We are free to do what? To kill our unborn children? to kill our geriatric (the Kevorkian 'death w/dignity' laws are here, in some states like Oregon(D))? This is more like the eslavement party, because if you are in your productive, tax paying years, you can't even eat transfats! And how do they see us repairing the toll that abortion takes on our population? Free the Illegals! They are already used to slave wages and conditions, much easier to blind them, by giving them a substandard education or one that's perverted and written according to the world of DNC. It's as Pastore says, only God fearing men can keep our nation safe, and that means from itself, too. Only by some faith in an other-worldly, after death judgement can mankind be kept on a course of good, decent and respectable behavior, none of which I see from the DNC.

Those liberal Democrat America-haters should look into the history books, really see who was in power during most of the times that we were meddling in another's affairs, and then listen to those who who claim to be speaking for them. The noise has changed very little, the same retoric was used then, a promise here and there, a look through their rosy glasses (is that a requirement for anyone joining the DNC, to be fitted with these glasses?), and then a slap on the face when you wake up and realize they just A bombed Iran, because they (the DNC) were the real power behind Clitler, or Obombthem and they waited too late to do anything about these murdering fanatics and who they sponsor? (read art. 54 of the Iranian constitution, if you have any doubts)

I think it's a great thing of the GOP, that so many of their party politicians have/can voice or vote their conscience in congress (although who controls their vote is another matter), it shows a party not running so much from behind the scenes. Not like the DNC, where example liberman, a staunch DNC member for decades, was censured and voted out by his own party, because he happened to speak his mind. And for each issue or promise hiltlery or obombus or other DNC candydates may go back on, shows just how much power the DNC welds in that party, and what their true ambitions are.

Go back to your school, kcincognito, and take your friends with you. You really are wasting your time if you think 'THers' take you as seriously as you take yourself. You will not win here, and your party belongs back in the frat house, not in congress or the white house. There are way too many people I know who will make sure that doesn't happen, so come Nov 08, better bring your buddies to the voting booth, because you'll be facing a landslide, not only in the white house, but in the congress as well.

We've given these 'progressive' congressmen more than enough rope, and they have, in just their first 6 months, already hung themselves. That's about all the entertainment I need from Reid, Pelosi and the DNC partyin' candydates, don't you think? I can't laugh any harder, and Leno needs no more material. Go back to your friends and tell them you and they are still not smarter than their parents or their generation.

If you are 22, it seems this last election was probably your first voting experience, if you voted at all. Wait until you have voted as many times and in as many elections as most of us here, (7 Presidents, 14 gen elections for me, 28 years w/school levies). And if you voted for any of the clods who are there now, thanks again for the bunch of do-nothings, and busybodies and crackpots you helped to get elected. You sure are smart, aren't you?

BTW, if you would have stolen a candy bar, or voted 'wrong' in Iraq under Hussein, you would have had your hand cut off. What would you have said if you spoke out against him like you do here? nothing. Your tongue would be gone, too. They didn't call him the butcher of bagdad for nothing, or did you think that was some other saddaam hussein?

You've been out of your toybox for what 4 years at the most? Get some historical experience of your own before you start comparing your 'MSM' to mine. Many of us remember when MSM was truely professional reporting on the who what when where and how, not the sensationalism that Cnn brought to the newsworld. The world of two minute reporting and soundbites, lowering your attention span and IQ to the cut and paste level. Didn't you ever wonder what an original thought was like? That means it came from you, not pushed at you. I'm so glad I taught my kids to think for themselves, your parents ought to be ashamed, not teaching you that. That's what happens when you spend so much time at the video games and getting your news from headlines.

Emergent Church
The suite of comments generated by Mr. Pastore's essay is very interesting. I do thank everyone who took the time (and thought) to share their opinions. As it should be, TH is a great classroom!

Some thoughts:

1. Can "Western Civilization" be traced much beyond Thales (ca. 600 BC)? I rather take his predictions of lunar eclipses (per Aristotle) to be the birth of what is now called "The Copernican Revolution," modern philosophy and science.
2. Does the Bible (Old and New Testaments)as we know it predate (by much) St. Augustine?
3. Have not Existentialism and Logical Positivism been found to be rather sterile philosophies?
4. Can/should Moral Philosphy be disconnected from Politics?
5. Why are there so damn many Copperheads and nebbish?

Amen
This "church" is what my family has been finding everywhere we go. It leaves you empty and replaces conviction with emotion. Thank you for stating my thoughts in such a clear, intelligent way.

Anne
"vespanat is either dumber than a bag of hammers, or acts like it... But, as time goes on, he seems to be doing much too good a job of "acting like it" so we're beginning to believe that he really IS dumber than a bag of hammers!"
Such wit and repartee. Oscar Wilde would have been proud of that razor sharp piece of invective.
I'm sure you are a lovely lady but you do appear somewhat incapable of moving beyond your accurately described "cheerleader" role and providing any coherent answers to questions put to you.



Gabby
"...by their singling out "radical" Islam, imply that there is a NON-radical Islam. There isn't."

By some estimates there are as many as 15,000 Muslims in our military fighting terrorism.

World population figures put Muslims at about 20 million.

In an earlier post I estimate by current population data approximately 1.5 million of what Pastore calls evangelical Christians, the bedrock of the American way of life who alone are going to save us all.

Do you evangelical Christians propose to do these things?

Is it "Christians begin any and all fighting with repentance and turning to Christ. He takes it from there"?

Or is it "The best thing to fight Islam at this point is free speech..."?

One answer leads to coercion, the other liberty.

Seems to me evangelicals are as confused as liberals who we are fighting and why.

Numerically illiterate

vespanat: Aaaah, somehow it's okay

for YOU to cast aspersions, insult and be condescending, but when you get called on your behavior.... you don't LIKE it! :-)

Hmmmm, having trouble playing with the smart people, are you?

LOL




What about Jiminy Carter?
Is he not an example of a non-emerging church member? After all, he was born again. Do we expect the Jiminy Carters of the USA to smite the Islamic Terror element? Or is he a facilitator?

Anne
Doesn't really bother me to be honest, I enjoy the transatlantic thrust and parry and you are s more fun than a number of other people on this site. You haven't come up with any answers other than insults that I can find though. I'm sure something is formulating in your mind as I type though.
I wouldn't consider myself, or indeed most contibutors here, an intellectual heavyweight, present company excepted of course!!! I just have certain things I hold to be true to parapharase one of your founding fathers(??)
I simply do not believe that western civilisation is on the brink of being undermined by militant Islam, I cannot conceive of any possible way this could happen and am yet to be convinced otherwise, analogies about pygmies and elephants notwithstanding.
Feel free to to enlighten me (or any of the other "smart people".)
A pleasure as always.

Articles like this...
...are an extension of the politics of division so often identified in these pages as the tools of trade of the despised liberals. The non-authoritarian religious right, and liberty loving non-theists are natural political allies. Both would see Islamic terrorists defeated, big government reduced, national soverignty maintained, and the U.S. Constitution respected as the law of the land.

Ridiculous
This story is ridiculous. It is basically saying that only religious ideology can fight religious ideology. That is like saying it takes one to no one. While fundamentalist christians have a lot in common with fundamentalist islamics, they are not the people who are most at risk from these religious zealots. It is the people who both ideologies dislike who are most at risk; moderates and non-believers. Like many non-believers, I am in the military. I have been a soldier since 1991.

Furthermore, whether or not ideology provides incentive to go warring with alternate ideologies has no bearing on whether it is true or not. All three Abrahamic religions can be proven erroneous at their source; genesis in the Old Testament.

Thank God for Roman Catholicism
Unlike the over 40,000 sects that have been spawned since Martin Luther deicded that the Holy Mother Church was too conservative, Roman Catholics have the collective wisdom of over 2000 years of a continuous line of reasoning and thought to guide them, as embodied in their Cathechism. They don't seem to argue much about which edition of the King James Bible is the true bible, since they know that all the splinter religions trace back to the ancient Latin verisons kept in Roman. The RC's were the first religion attacked by the followers of Mohammed, and protected Western Europe long before Martin Luther was even swimming around in his father's pants leg.

Further, the Church has a single representative that is the ultimate decider of what is "bound on earth shall be bound in heaven".

The RC's are tolerant of all religions who do not actively seek to kill members of other relgions, or of those who do not believe in any relgion.

Now, as sure as the works Cheney can never be uttered in a sentence without Halliburton, posters will point out the barbarism of the Crusades, and the Spanish Inquisition. Let me just point out that without the Crusades, Western Europe would be the Caliphate, and we would all be kneeling now to the East five times a day.

Evangelicals
Depending on the definition, the percentage of Evangelicals can range from 5% to 40%. What I would like to know is what percent share Dr. Pastore's religious and political views. Just how large is the segment?

In many polls 1/2 of the Evangelicals support Democrats. Some polls suggest that many of the self-identified Evangelicals go to Emerging Churches.

The conservative Evangelicals are an important segment (how large?) in the fight against terrorists but there are also large secular segments, less religious segments, religious conservative Catholics, Mormons, Jews, Hindus and Muslims who are very also very important to the cause.

The conservative Evangelicals are important but they do not necessarily have to lead the War against terror or the culture wars for that matter.

the flash
We can see roman catholicisms effects today here and abroad. The majority of the supreme court are catholics and appear to be toeing the papal line voting down personal liberty and freedoms, especially religious and speech, as often as they can.

Another example of catholicism is the pope's involvement in 20 years of covering up child sexual assault my the clergy by THREATENING and PUNISHING the abused.

http://www.jefound.org/2006/10/05/documentary-sex-crimes-and-the-vatican-implicates-pope-ratzinger-in-child-abuse-cover-up/

Crimen Sollicitationis

You are wrong
Not all "missional" churches are what you describe. Mars Hill in Seattle is a Bible-believing, theologically conservative church trying to reach a very liberal city. Truth is not relative there.

Conservative Christians (me) have to be so careful not to reject creative aqpproaches to evangelism. Not all of them reject the Word as inerrant and God inspired.

Jesus is dead...
If I were a praying or a betting person, in the short term I would pray to Allah and bet on Islam.

In the long term, ALL religious triummphalism is doomed to disappointment and failure.

This century, if we're lucky, will see the beginning to the 1000 year decline and death of religious triumphalism. But not until the USA is nuked (real live fission nukes, not just dirty bombs). And Jesus, still, always and forever, will not be coming to the rescue. And evangelical conservative Christians don't have the power to stop it even if they had the fervor. Which they don't.

Atheism, secularism and liberalism is not the problem. Religious triumphalism is. What goes around comes around, and for a short period anyway, it's Christianity and the Wests' turn. In the end, everyone loses.

What will rise on the ashes? Not the Christ Myth about Jesus, sorry. Nor any other religious triumphalism.

Shalom

Emergent
Onesimus (love your screen name),

You ask: "in what way is the typical American megachurch, which dishes out mushy-headed mini-faith to its SUV-driving twice-divorced Starbuck's-addicted minions, in any way relevant to the resistance against Islamofascism? The average American babyboomer Christian is in no more equipped to deal with the problem than the Emergents."

Good point. It is my observation that the "emergent church" is not necessarily mutually exclusive from the mega church. Don't you see the movement as perhaps an outgrowth of the mega-church?

Baby-boomers in their quest to throw off the old traditions (or more-accurately Gen-xers), have had to develop their own "brand" of Christianity. They essentially decided to reinvent the wheel.

The result has left the new generation bereft of traditions, history, and biblical knowledge. Creating a hodge-podge of Christianity that stands not on biblical truth and the shoulders of the "divines," but on the latest mega-celebrity.

Christianity becomes a "you can do it" social club and its members soon find that they can't in fact "do it." And so go searching for somethign new to fill the void. "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

And then as Pastore says,"anything that helps to further separate the West from its Biblical roots..."

"My people are destroyed for lack of Knowledge." Christians need to pray for strong churches whose pastors are grounded in the Word of God and not tossed about by "every wind of doctrine."

Soli deo Gloria

p.s.A great book by an "emergant" ...Blue Like Jazz.

CharlieS

Bravo, bravissimo!

Thanks for really pinning kcincognito's ears back.

Confusion of terms
I think that the writer is confusing two terms here: emergent and liberal.

The liberal minded "Christians" have been around for a while. They are the ones who confuse Christianity with other religions and have an "anything goes I'm a churchgoer" philosophy.

The emergent church (or the term I have been studying in graduate school) is made of postmoderns who are seeking a true relationship with God. They are not interested in the hypocritical religiosity of some established churches. The ones who hang tight to their traditions and forget what the Bible says. Many of these postmoderns do not have a background in church because their grandparents or parents left the church due to hypocrisy. These postmoderns are realizing that there is more to life; they want a real transforming with their Creator.

Barna
The Barna Group make a distinction between self identified Evangelicals (38% of adults) and Evangelicals who meet a 9 question belief test (8%). The 8 % are much closer to the type of Christians that Dr. Pastore has in mind.

Of that 8 %, 51 % are Republicans.

That indicates that in the Republican party the Pastore Evangelicals (4 %) may be slightly larger than the Mormons (3-4 %) (Fabrizio poll on the composition of the Rep Party) and about twice the size of Hispanics, Blacks, Jews or Gays.

Francis Schaeffer
Frank Pastore obviously has not read much of Francis Schaeffer (sp?) or others of the "emergant" church, the one with no steeples, no pews, the church of "people." That is the thinking, bold, and value-strong emergant church that keeps moral and conservative values coursing through the bodies of believers that sit in the buildings of steeples and pews (wrongly identified as "churches" when it is actually the people who are the church, not the building."

Sorry, Gabby
I misread your intent.

Telling the truth would be good, and seems we agree Patore is wrong. If you believe repentance and prayer a solution, or partial solution, I have no qualms about that. Along with fighting radical Islamists, hunting them down, and eliminating them where we find them.

Apologize for the misread again. :-)

gabby
--I have you or Christ to believe.--


And yet you cannot prove that there is or was a christ anymore than than the muslim can prove allah or the mormon can prove christ. How about you come to reality. Why don't you actually look into what makes the world tick and into the history of the world. The bible is SO easily disproven just by comparing genesis to reality. For instance, genesis states that man was made in an instance in 'god's image.' Well, where does the neandertal fit in. The neandertal is a separate species of hominid that went extinct ~25,000 years ago and lived side by side with homo sapiens for almost 50,000 years in the northern climates. We know that the neandertal is not human [DNA comparison] and we know that they were intelligent. They had slightly larger brains than we do, they could create art, and they could communicate. Where do these separate and intelligent species fit into your religion?

Boromir's Horn

Not only was there a connection between Saddam and Al Qaida, theree is DOCUMENTARY PROOF of such a connection.

The following were found in the offices of the Mukhabarat shortly after the fall of Bagdad:

Document 1. Feb. 19, 1998

"The envoy is a trusted confidant and known by them. According to the above mediation we request official permission to call Khartoum station to facilitate the travel arrangements for the above-mentioned person to Iraq. And that our body carry all the travel and hotel expenses inside Iraq TO GAIN THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE MESSAGE FROM BIN LADEN AND TO CONVEY TO HIS ENVOY AN ORAL MESSAGE FROM US TO BIN LADEN...ABOUT THE FUTURE OF OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM, AND TO ACHIEVE A DIRECT MEETING WITH HIM."(Emphasis added.)

The remaining two documents deal with the hotel reservations and bill for the "envoy."

The meetings took place in March of 1998.

The very definition of elitism
Only Christians have core values.

A complete waste of a read.

DA
Hey there. So you're still working your way through the Bible? I'm impressed. Up to Nahum are you?

Keep reading. Have you ever prayed the ol' "God if you're real..." bit? Are you afraid too? Do you dare?

Let us know when you get to the New Testament. You're making good progress!

israelis would find this kind of talk
not only demeaning but laughable.

the only ones who can save the world are evangelical conservative christians?


i am sorry but it is God through Jesus Christ who has already saved the world and this guy who claims to be the super-christian doesn't know enough to recognize that fact.

Frank has missed the boat
I agree with Observer when he/she says that Frank is confusing 'liberal' Christianity with the term 'emerging church'.

Christian church membership and attendance has been declining steadily over the last few decades, with few exceptions - the megachurches, for example.

Why is that?

The churches continue to play to the entrenched. The churches, by and large, are nothing more than sanctuaries of comfort for the 'sanctified and the petrified'. They really do not want new people who will upset the apple cart.

One of our local churches is having a collective hissy fit over the introduction of 'new' church music. Crazy stuff from these radical groups like Third Day and Maranatha. The churchgoers seem oblivious to the fact that there is a great body of church music written after 1895. Or even 1950. That church has members threatening to leave. How very Christian, don't you think?

Yet last weekend a group of Christian rappers came to town and held a small free concert. Perhaps a hundred people of varying ages attended. These are largely unchurched people. I asked one young lady why she was there. Her response: "I can't go to a church in this town. I'm single, I have two kids, and I've never been married, much less divorced. Christians don't like people like me."

Yes. She is right Young unwed mothers who listen to rap music with their little heathen kids are not welcome in Christian churches. They make uncomfortable the sanctified and the petrified. I wonder what Jesus would think of that?

I think Jesus would weep and wonder who these people are, who call themselves "Christians".

Mosques have no problems getting men to attend. Of course they don't. Radical Islam is made for the disenfranchised, uneducated young man. What about Christian churches? Where are the men? I would refer Frank to the excellent work, "The Church Impotent: The Feminization of Christianity" by Leon J. Podles.

Yes, Frank has missed the boat. His hardcore old fashioned Bible-thumpers are killing the church, while the unchurched believers struggle to find their way.

That isn't the ACLU's fault. It's not even the fault of the Democrats. It's the fault of those self-serving, hypocritical, self-styled "Christians". Jesus wept, indeed.

But
There is more than one column on TH at the moment reminding us that there is only one kind of religion that is any good and that is the conservaive Republican kind. Another columnist reminds us that the democrats aren't Christian enough because the candidates haven't made abortion their primary issue. I like it when conservatives tell the rest of us how to believe, how else would we know what to think?

Overstate
Barna may actually overstate the true number of "Evangelicals" at 8 %. The following is from Barna.

When asked about the origin of the nine-point evangelical criteria that his firm has used in surveys for nearly two decades, he cited the work of the National Association of Evangelicals. "Years ago, NAE labored long and hard to identify what an evangelical believes. Because the distinguishing attribute of an evangelical is what he or she believes, we drew criteria from the belief statement of the nation’s leading association evangelicals.

We probably overestimate the number of evangelicals, since we do not take into account all of the beliefs that NAE says a true evangelicals holds. But our measurement approach incorporates the key elements from their statement of faith."

"The Bible does not refer to any person as an ‘evangelical,’" the researcher noted. "This is a construct created within the religious community many years ago to differentiate a group that possesses a distinctive theological perspective. Over time, people have become sloppy in the measurement process, as evidenced by the fact that one out of every four self-identified evangelicals has not even accepted Christ as their savior. Responsible analysts, researchers and journalists should be encouraged to re-examine the term and the measures they are using. Political commentators, reporters, educators and researchers continually make important claims about the spiritual life, lifestyle patterns, voting preferences and issue stands of evangelicals even though it is clear that the criteria they use for identifying evangelicals are misleading, at best."

He stated that past research among the 9-point evangelicals showed that their voting patterns are radically different from those of born again and self-defined evangelicals; that they are much more conservative on a vast array of social and political issues, ranging from abortion and homosexual unions to the importance of family; that their use of media and their lifestyles are significantly different from those of the born again public; and that evangelicals donate significantly more money to non-profit organizations.


gretchen
the documentation you cite is only believed by dick cheney and you.

the cia and nie says they can find no eveidence of such a meeting, but of course you know more than they do.