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Sunday, February 18, 2007
Frank Pastore :: Townhall.com Columnist
Islam Is Not The Enemy, Part II
by Frank Pastore
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The elevator doors opened and in walked a young woman dressed in the traditional veiled hijab–I’m assuming she was a Muslim–and I thought to myself, “Is she my enemy?” Looking at the reaction to my last column, there’s a whole bunch of people whose default position is to believe so–and maybe they’re right. In their minds, “Islam is the enemy. We’re at war. She shouldn’t be here.” It’s that simple to them.

But, of course, in the real world, it is so much more complicated–and ancient. Humanity has been dealing with this prob-lem for a long time. Plato addressed the theological-political problem in his Laws back in the 5th century B.C. Today, for most of us, the problem occurs in the struggle to reconcile two conflicting beliefs.

As Christians, we believe Islam is a false religion–and the belief is reciprocal.

As Americans, we believe in the free exercise of religion, including Islam–but this belief is not reciprocal.

So, how do we deal with tolerating a religion that is itself intolerant of us? Ought we to pride ourselves on our tolerance and eagerly embrace their intolerance even if it leads to our own destruction? Or, perhaps we ought to abandon our First Amendment and be intolerant of Islam while tolerating only those “acceptable” religions that we decide are “peaceful”? Or, should we intolerantly force them to abandon their religion and embrace a “moderate” replacement that we approve of?

None of these options work for me. I’m a Christian American and I want to live at peace with others, but if someone wants to kill my family, it’s a fight to the death. I don’t think we’re there, yet. Nor do I want to pass an Amendment that would legalize religious discrimination. I don’t want to adapt to them, I think they should adapt to us and embrace toler-ance–the whole “live and let live” thing. Nor do I want to force someone to change their religion against their will–how could this even be done? There’s got to be another option. But, is there?

See, the problem is, Christianity teaches the Golden Rule while Islam doesn’t. The Koran teaches that every Muslim is superior to every non-Muslim and that men are superior to women. A Muslim may treat a Jew, a Buddhist, or a Christian with respect, but they will never be considered equals, for they are dhimmis, a near-slave status in Muslim teaching. This is the fundamental reason why Islam is incompatible with democracy and thereby the West. How can you have a democracy among non-equals? Let alone the fact that half of all Muslim populations are immediately excluded from the political process simply because of their gender. Either the West will cease to be the West, or Islam will cease to be Is-lam. But the two cannot blend and remain what they are. It is the defining characteristic of each that it has almost noth-ing in common with the other.

In Islam, the world is divided into the world of believers, dar al Islam, and that of unbelievers, dar al harb. Islam is not merely at war with the West, it is at war with the world. No authority is higher than the infallible divine law contained in the closed canon of the Koran. Sharia law trumps all other claims to divine law, all natural law, and all positive law. No Muslim can be under any authority other than sharia law. To do so is to render oneself apostate and deserving of death. Reason itself is unable to inquire into the morality of the divine law. This is why the concepts of state, citizen, nation, pluralism and tolerance are alien to Islam. It is also why perhaps there is no more clear instance of the reformer’s di-lemma in all of history. To reform one must question, and to question is forbidden.

As I wrote a few weeks ago, “Americans are alarmed by the advance of Islam into our society, and properly so, for who will assimilate to whom? Could a Muslim have written the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights, the Constitu-tion? Does Islam believe in the separation of church and state, that all men are created equal, that there should be no religious test for political office holders, that government ought to be secular?”

The answer, of course, is no.

The challenge of the West to live peaceably with Islam is made perhaps impossible by both the historical record and sim-ply by looking around today. What do nearly all the problem spots around the world have in common? What dominant Muslim country has anything approaching real human rights? Where are the Muslim denunciations of violence, terrorism, genocide, and slavery coming from the many mosques, universities, newspapers and capitols throughout the Muslim world? For that matter, where are the condemnations of these things coming from the American Muslim community? There are over one billion Muslims on this planet and their collective silence on these evils is deafening and threatening. What are we non-Muslims to think, other than that the vast majority of Muslims must either support if not tolerate such things? Perhaps “moderate” Islam is merely a Western fiction created to avoid addressing the unavoidable and inevitable reality of civilizational incompatibility.

The loudest and most clear message we non-Muslims hear from the Muslim world is “Convert, submit to Dhimmitude, or die.” Come to think of it, I’m not hearing any other message. And that is what is so deeply troubling.

Are we to take comfort in being told not all Muslims are radical? Perhaps, and I hold on to that. But, if just one-hundredth of one-percent are future jihadists, you’re still talking 100,000 killers hoping to blow up a school bus or fly a plane into a building. We are at war with these radicals, make no mistake.

So, as I remember that young woman in the elevator with the hijab, I think of these things.

Maybe she’s an American citizen who loves this country and is bothered by what she sees, too. Maybe her family fled re-ligious persecution back in the old country. Maybe she actually wants to live here and raise her family here. Her Muslim husband might be in the National Guard. She might even be a Republican. And maybe, just maybe, she’s someone who worries about these things just as I do, and is trying to reform her religion into something that can live peaceably in modernity.

It’s these last thoughts that stop me short of seeing her as the enemy.

Or, maybe she’s in a sleeper cell. I probably wouldn’t know until it was too late, anyway.

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About The Author
The Frank Pastore Show is heard in Los Angeles weekday afternoons on 99.5 KKLA and on the web at kkla.com, and is the winner of the 2006 National Religious Broadcasters Talk Show of the Year. Frank is a former major league pitcher with graduate degrees in both philosophy of religion and political philosophy.
 
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read a book
I'm a junior at Yale University and I hail from a particularly conservative neck of the woods in upstate New York. I'm a registered Republican and one of a handful of conservative Yalies. I'm also ashamed that anyone could ever lump you and I together as "conservatives".

You have a graduate degree in religious philosophy? Of what religion? And does this degree make you qualified to make such rash judgements without any basis of fact?
You must think you have a mandate.

Why am I mortally embarrased that you and I could ever be associated? Because you are wrong about your incompatibility theory. You are only listening to the radical Islamist messages of anti-Westernism and fear of democracy.

Why do Islamists fear democracy so much? Because it is the antithesis of a theocracy, and all of the fundamentalists want a theocracy. Fundamentalists constitute a negligible fraction of the Muslim population and just like the extreme radicals of the left and right in American politics, they have a very limited following.

From a purely cultural perspective, Islam *is* compatible with democracy in the same way Christianity is. Do you think the Catholic had a choice between democracy and theocracy that it would choose democracy? Absolutely not. Democracy is the antithesis of everything the church values, namely hierarchy and heavenly mandate.

How about Protestant sects that swear allegiance to God before all else? Take a look at the Puritans, those extremists that colonized New England in the 1600's. Were those communities not theocracies in the very ways the Muslim world is?

Cultural factors aside, research has indicated that inclinations towards democracy has more to do with economics and economic enfranchisement than with religion. What is really keeping men and women in the middle east from exercising their 'democratic spirit' is that they have no economic legitimacy. Their countries' economies are dominated by natural resource wealth that is tightly controlled by the upper echelons. What brought about the transition from feudalism to capitalism in the West? It was the peasants and workers abilities to claim legitimacy for equality from their hard work; such a claim is very difficult on the part of the men and women in these resource rich countries.

I suggest you read a political science article by Michael Ross or do a search on "democracy incompatible islam" in google scholar and read some of what comes up. If you really have a graduate degree, you will be no stranger to reading and digesting new information. Maybe it will take your head out of the clouds and teach you not to make such ridiculous statements without proper evidence to back yourself up. You sound like an idiot and you make the rest of us look stupid just because we vote for the same party you do.

I am interested in calling your show and chatting about this on the air. Shock jocks like you forget that there is more to knowledge than racism and cultural insensitivity.


Uk Infidel
"It has brought nothing but death, misery and enslavement where ever it arrives"


Medieval Muslims made stunning math breakthrough


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Magnificently sophisticated geometric patterns in medieval Islamic architecture indicate their designers achieved a mathematical breakthrough 500 years earlier than Western scholars, scientists said on Thursday

Only in the 1970s did British mathematician and cosmologist Roger Penrose become the first to describe these geometric designs in the West. Quasicrystalline patterns comprise a set of interlocking units whose pattern never repeats, even when extended infinitely in all directions, and possess a special form of symmetry

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070223/...re_patterns_dc


Yes, Muslims have done bad things but compared to Christians deeds, they would look like angels.

The crusades, the inquisition. Europe invaded and colonized most of the Muslim world in the past 100 years from Palestine to Asia to Africa.

Slavery, the slaughtering of the native Americans, the Holocaust, Vietnam war, invasion of south American countries..etc..

Why dont you read your history first, then maybe we can have a productive dialogue.

Uk Infidel
The claims that verses revealed in Mekkah are harsher than the ones revealed in Medinah sprung from intectual laziness and deciet. Or the notion that the prophet mohammad said nice things at the beginning because he was weak in mekkah is simply NOT true.


The following verse was revealed in Medina :

Quran (29:46).: Be courteous when you argue with the People of the Book [Christians and jews), except with those among them who do evil. Say: We believe in that which is revealed to us and which was revealed to you. Our God and your God is one.

The translation of the verses you provided is incomplete and misleading because you awalys leave the verse before or after in which they can change the whole meaning of the verses.

Lets dissect all the verses you mentioned one by one.

9.005 ( revealed in Madinah)
: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

however you left out the verse before that which clearely shows that Muhammad was ordered only to fight to those who fought him first. which the following verse demomstrates

9.004 ( revealed in Madinah): Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).

Also the verse after that says;

9.06 ( revealed in Madinah): If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of God; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.



(9:123) Says

O you who believe, you shall fight the Ingrateful who attack you - let them find you stern - and know that GOD is with the righteous.

I see nothing wrong with this verse. God is ordering the prophet Muhammad to defend himself against the people who attack him.

As for the verse [9:29] Here is the correct translation:

"You shall fight back against those who do not believe in GOD, nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what GOD and His messenger have prohibited, nor do they abide by the religion of truth - among those who received the scripture - until they pay the due tax, willingly or unwillingly"

Here the verse is specefically talking about SOME people among the Chrstians and Jews.

Who are you to select what verse is more important than the other??

All verses in the koran are equally important. The chronological manner in which the verses were transcribed reflect the hitotorical events of the time in which they were revealed.

The term infidel doesnt exist in Islam. Its a word that was created by the Christians to depict non-christians in medieval times. In islam, the Koran calls the pagans ingrateful, and then over time the word changed to unbelievers , nowadays for islamophobic reasons non-muslims call themselves infidel and blame the Koran for the connotation they created for themselves.


Also the term "holy war" is from the time of the Crusades and originated in Europe as a rallying cry against the Muslims in Jerusalem. Jihad is an Arabic word meaning struggle, but in the context of many verses in the Koran, it carries the meaning of military struggle, or war.

As you see God gradually introduced the obligation of military struggle to the Muslim community at the time of Muhammad. The first verse ever revealed in that connection is as follows (translation),

[22:39] Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them;
This verse lays down the precondition for all war in Islam: there must exist certain oppressive conditions on the people. In Islam God unequivocally orders people to fight oppression and persecution, even at the expense of bloodshed as the following verse shows . just like what the US is doing in Iraq fighting a dictator.


Btw, verses can only be from the Koran. Hadith literally means a story. Hadith was related and written by people who supposedly lived at the time of the prophet Mohammad.


Now its your turn to explain the following verses from the Bible.

1-Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)



2-Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)



3-Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)



4-Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)



5-Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)



6-Death for Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)



7-Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)



8-Death for Fornication

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)



9-Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)



10-Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)



11-Kill False Prophets

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

12-New Testament: 9:12-15

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

34- Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

For I have come to turn " 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—" KJV-Matthew10

"He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21)


According to the following verses, the Bible would be the only scripture that contains a God-approved act of suicide in order to kill enemy civilians (Judges 16:26-30).


16:26-And Samson said unto the lad that held him by the hand, Suffer me that I may feel the pillars whereupon the house standeth, that I may lean upon them.

16:27-Now the house was full of men and women; and all the lords of the Philistines were there; and there were upon the roof about three thousand men and women, that beheld while Samson made sport.

16:28-And Samson called unto the LORD, and said, O Lord GOD, remember me, I pray thee, and strengthen me, I pray thee, only this once, O God, that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes.

16:29-And Samson took hold of the two middle pillars upon which the house stood, and on which it was borne up, of the one with his right hand, and of the other with his left.

16:30-And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with all his might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life .










DS response
DS writes:
I spent years searching islam before i embraced it.

Then either you did not search hard enough, or you excuse what has been done in the name of Islam, or the religion suits your perverted tastes.

DS writes:
How did you know that these verses were aborgated, "dear scholar"??

They are not. Surah 9 is one of the last, if not the last of the Medina surahs. So that means you have some explaining to do, to explain to everyone here as to why slaughtering Infidels is the superior way. You dont want to reveal that to other non-Muslims in the USA do you?

"There is no compulsion in religion" is older. The Medina surahs have more weight than the Meccan surahs as they were later.

And what do you think of the verses from the Hadith? Salih Bukhari and Salih Muslim are considered reliable by Muslims.
I note you do not answer that.

Would you also like to state the Muslim position on booty?
Would you also like to state the Muslim position on slavery?
Would you also like to state the Muslim position on apostasy?

Would you also like to comment on history
- Abu Bakr's, Umar & Ali's expansion of the Muslim empire, by SWORD after Muhammad's death?

Would you also like to comment on history
- why was Spain invaded and held from 711 to 1492?
Did the people of Spain want to be invaded?

You cannot answer such questions, because the fact is THAT IS THE HISTORY OF ISLAM.
Nothing but bloodshed, death & slavery for 1300 years for everyone who is a non-Muslim.
But you would like to stay silent about that DS and not alarm the non-Muslim US citizens about their fate once Islam really has a foothold over the States?

Everyone:
The fact is Islam is anything but peaceful.
It has brought nothing but death, misery and enslavement where ever it arrives.
You just have to study history.
And you can study Muslim scholars as they boast about such conquests.
And you dont have to look to far either, because in our time:

Have a look here where Afghan Muslims seek to put to death someone who has renounced Islam - what a great and merciful religion Islam is.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4863742.stm

or here where Muslims destroyed another cultures statues
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1849843.stm

The list is endless


Uk infidel
What do you think of these verses from the bible;

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)



Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)



Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)



Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)



Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)



Death for Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)



Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)



Death for Fornication

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)



Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)



Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)



Kill False Prophets

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

New Testament: 9:12-15

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

34- Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

For I have come to turn " 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—" KJV-Matthew10

"He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21)


According to the following verses, the Bible would be the only scripture that contains a God-approved act of suicide in order to kill enemy civilians (Judges 16:26-30).


16:26-And Samson said unto the lad that held him by the hand, Suffer me that I may feel the pillars whereupon the house standeth, that I may lean upon them.

16:27-Now the house was full of men and women; and all the lords of the Philistines were there; and there were upon the roof about three thousand men and women, that beheld while Samson made sport.

16:28-And Samson called unto the LORD, and said, O Lord GOD, remember me, I pray thee, and strengthen me, I pray thee, only this once, O God, that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes.

16:29-And Samson took hold of the two middle pillars upon which the house stood, and on which it was borne up, of the one with his right hand, and of the other with his left.

16:30-And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with all his might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life .


UK Infidel
Dear Poster

I spent years searching islam before i embraced it. Yes, im aware of the abrogated verses of the Koran.

You are too funny! First off abrogated verses didnt come about because theres contaradition in the koran as you may think. Theres no contradictions in the koran.

The purpose of the abrogatation in islam is bring some form of relief, of soothing, and cancellation of hardship not the other way oround.

Abrogation constitutes a step towards what is better and superior. abrogation or Al-Naskh is often a means of bringing ease and relief, since Muslims were required to follow what is higher, stronger and better in the first stage of education and building the Ummah.

How did you know that these verses were aborgated, "dear scholar"??

The information about al-nasikh wa al-mansukh cannot be accepted upon mere personal opinion, guesswork or hearsay, but must be based on reliable reports, according to the ulum al-hadith, and should go back to the Prophet and his Companions.

The report must also clearly state which part of the revelation is nasikh and which is mansukh.

Some scholars say that there are three ways of knowing about al-nasikh wa al-mansukh:

Report from the Prophet or Companions.

Ijma' (consensus of the umma upon what is nasikh and what mansukh).

Knowledge about which part of the Qur'an preceded another part in the history of revelation. [Qattan, op.cit., p. 199]


I dont see any contradictions among the verses you posted when you take into consideration their Quranic and historical context. Some Revelations in the Koran speak to what it means to be a Muslim while other Revelations are specifically given to Mohammed in response to a particular event, like the ones you mentioned in your post. So, reading the Koran without putting the verse in its historical context is an exercise in failure. also the verses in Koran when they were transcribed were not mostly done in a chronological manner.

Also is not so much a matter of which passages of the Koran you read, but which you ignore as well. in order to understand the complexity and the whole picture of the koran you need to assess the pricise events/ time in which the verses were written , what they meant and the chronological manner in which they were transcribed and put together after the prophet mohammad died.

The Koran almost always refers only to the Meccan idolators, who are characterized by kufr or the ingratitude or nowadys the word change to" unbelievers" by muslims and non-muslims alike. Christians and jews are considered by Islam believers. and thats why muslim men are allowed to only mary jews or christains.



http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/ShowFatwa.php?lang=E&Id=3467&Option=FatwaId

http://www.sunnipath.com/Resources/PrintMedia/Books/B0040P0021.aspx







DefenderofIslam
Were you as illiterate before you converted to Islam as you are now? I couldn't find a single sentence in your post that made sense. Maybe you should rewrite that in your native language and have someone competent in English translate it for you.

Islam is not a religion
Islam is a religion only in the sense that Communism is a religion -- a political world view which cannot be questioned and can survive only by destroying all competitive world views.

Everyone is a scholar when it comes to
aIslam.

Jesus is merely a prophet? Isnt Mohammed merly a prophet as well??

"Jesus is of a lesser stature than Mohammed?"
Says who?

All prophets are equally important in Islam.

From the koran: Surah the cow

2:285

The Messenger believeth in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one of them believeth in God, His angels, His books, and His MESSENGERS. We make NO DISTINCTION they say between one and another of His messengers. And they say: "We hear, and we obey: We seek Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys.

Did you know the only women mentioned by name in the Koran is the virgin Mary? Im sure your Imam Steve Spenser didnt teach you that.

Did you know that Muslims believe that Jesus never died and will come back at the end of times to save humanity? Did you??

Im not asking you to believe in my God,just dont make up stories and lies about Him.






Allah is NOT God Almighty
I'm sorry to break that news to all you who believed your High School Western Civilization teacher. It's a nice fiction based upon Mohammed's assertation that Allah was the God of the Bible, but the thing about fiction is that it remains fiction even when people believe it.

The Bible (Old and New Testament) depicts a God who loves His creation and wants so much for everyone of them to come back to Him that He stepped into history and died a horrible death to make that happen. The moral code the God of the Bible holds us includes things like loving our enemies, treating even those we would prefer to hate with utmost respect, telling the truth even when it is inconvenient, not stealing or extorting, not involuntarily enslaving anyone, etc.

The Koran depicts a god that wants worship and devotion to the point of death and murder. The moral code this god is said to support is one where it is okay to hate those who are not Muslim, where it is okay to lie to dhimmis, where it is okay to extort money from those who are not Muslim, where it is okay to involuntarily enslave those who are not Muslim, etc.

In the Bible, Jesus is identified as God incarnate, the physical representation of the spiritual God, worthy of worship for He is God Himself.

In the Koran, Jesus is merely a prophet, equal to Moses and of lesser status than Mohammed, a pedophile who failed to keep every treaty he ever made with his neighbors.

These are two different gods and two very different holy books. So, please stop trying to make that tired, false statement about Christians, Jews and Muslims worshipping the same god. Christians and Jews worship the God of the Bible. Islam worships the repackaged moon god of Mecca. They are not equivalent just because Mohammed or your Western Civ teacher said they are.

Study the difference before you try to argue the point.

Islam is here to stay.
First than muslim liveing under non-muslim ruler is still than muslim and must odey that state law unless they are trying to ban Islam. Too many people think that reading the Hadiths online or in a book make you than intert expert in Islam. There are false Hadiths mix in with all the other the religious scholar left in as than test for they student. Some false Hadiths turn out to be true like the one that support Darwin Theory of Evolution which is also support in the Koran along with the Big Bang Theory of the birth of the entire Universer, the scholar of early age didnot have the
sciencist knowlege we have to day. The right wing Christian want than religious war and I donot hear other Christian to tell them to shut up like Pat Robertson of 700 club bigot. Islam never convert anyone by the sword, this thing was invertion in the middle age by Christian to explain how Islam grew so fast in the HolyLand, North Africa and other parts of the world. Indonesia was convert to Islam by Muslim merchant
and seaman who went there to trade with the native hindt there. It than fact that the western world try to destory Islam in the 19 and first half of the 20th century an it fail to do so. There now between 13 million to 15 million muslin in America today some of the far right wing Christian group like to say only 2 million muslim in america which is wrong. America better get use to have nuslim in america they are here to stay. I convert to Islam in 2003 and I than happy as than muslim.

More of us need to awaken

Mr. Pastore's comments are reasoned and based on current history. I encourage everyone to read his article and pass it along to others. The "others" include what seems a large majority of Americans who are oblivious to Islam's purpose, history and nature.

In fairness it must be said that "of course" there are fair-minded Muslims who register distress at the intolerant and pro-violence messages emanating from Muslim groups, even mosques. There is indeed a deafening silence when it comes to what should be a loud outpouring of condemnation of jihadism from American Muslims and their representative groups. What other large and well-organized group can you think of that is not quick to publicly denounce those who commit violence in the name of the group, or just as a member of that group?

What is even less known to outsiders is that Muslims who would contemplate Islamic reform walk a very dangerous path. If a Muslim even makes it known that he/she is *considering* leaving Islam (apostasy) this is a death sentence. It is very difficult for Westerners to undestand this dilemma and we should be of help to such Muslims if we meet them. It is noteworthy that today, those Muslims who speak out against the barbaric nature of many Islamic principles are women.

Look around on the web. Yesterday I saw a site that maps and details, street by street, all the "no go" zones in major cities in France. They are "no go" because in effect- and quite literally- French law and rule of order have been replaced by sharia law. French police were demonstrating in the street about this (!). What does this mean to you? It should make you wonder what else the mainstream media isn't telling you.

If Islam does not adapt to the 21st century, by a combination of internal and external forces, then Islam will drag us back to the 7th. In theory, their religion could modify to adopt the Golden Rule, and abandon its longstanding oppressive cult mentality. For the sake of many good Muslims, and our own, I hope this comes to pass.

The FBI should keep an eye on this site
The vast majority of the posters are terrorists, inciting and threatening violence against their fellow American Muslims.

Happy Mudslinging

In late 80s United States as the co-sponsor of Afghan war and the ‘Islamist force’ called Mujahideen of Pan-Islamic organisation were rousing and rallying at a close quarters. They were marching hand in hand to dislodge Soviet Union from Afghanistan. Pursuing the planned covert operation against Soviet Union, United States had earlier encouraged Russians to invade and occupy Afghanistan. Soviet Union had fell prey to US covert move and an atheist aggressor; Soviet Union invaded an Islamic country- Afghanistan. This made the conservative Islamist in Afghanistan to raise a cry for Jihad and they made a move to fight against the Soviet aggressor to free their home land.

The aim of both the adventurist, United States and Pan Islamic Organisation, Mujahideen was to seek a strong surge of Islamic Jihad movement as policy weapon in Afghanistan and use it against Soviet Union. Both were targeting at the lucrative world economic rich and full of natural resources lands of central Asia. (Most of them are the former Islamic republics previously engulfed by the Soviet Zars.) US if success full will hold the dominance and control of the area. On the other hand Islamist were happy to gain back their Islamic countries and thus form a major; Islamic Super Block of future. After giving a colossal defeat as planned, in the selected rugged Battle fields of Afghanistan and the expected break up of Soviet Union; they both will grab these break away and vulnerable lands at their will.

The lightening blows of Mujahideen and their furious attacks unleashed havoc on Soviet encampments. They not only struck violently and defeated Soviet Union but its Empire also came down crumbling and collapsed for good. The bravery and valour of Mujahideen warriors in their Jihad movement had brought a historic change on the face of this earth. Mujahideen made Soviet Union to collapse and United States became the sole super power in the world.

The entire operation was conducted, supported and executed by single country Pakistan. (Of course with the financial and material help from USA and Saudi Arabia.) Fairness of the business demands that Pakistan being the beneficent of USA in making her the sole super power has to be treated with respect and dignity and kept on right hand.

Pan Islamic forces are the equal partners and share holders of spoils of Afghan war but both the war partners have failed to live by the rules and want to go their own way to claim their…‘lion shares’.

US used the Jihad movement and its potential of volatile surge among Muslim as policy weapon, which turned them into diehard sturdy warriors in Afghan war. US wanted to use it again and have taken a fresh start by invading Iraq but this time US has moved rather against it and is using the weapon of policy in reverse order; by Labelling the Mujahideen (Taliban) as terrorists and declaring a war against them; namely ‘Global war on Terror’, which is in fact a betrayal and a baseless move being pushed on false pretexts against the old friends.

The diehard, sturdy Mujahideen warriors may not convert themselves into humbled and be submissive identities so easily by merely turning all US guns on them.(under the divisive pretext of global war on terror.) Global terrorism is a false pretext. Both the parties; know this very well. It requires a visionary to lead the world as lone super power and deal with; such like situations and forces… it requires, not the extermination of old acquaintances and beneficent friends but …wisdom, zeal and magnanimity should be at its display. Unfortunately these traits of leadership; US administration simply does not posses and has got nothing to give to the world at large.

In view of the present scenario in the Middle East and our distressing concern of atrocities being committed there in Iraq war; our media is very successfully keeping us in its grip all the times. The twisted depictions and falsification of media is the real problem; where as it is either a rapacious greed of United States and craving to mark her dominance as a lone super power in the world or group of Islamists striving to uphold their cause, which are at play. Some how we all have fallen victim to this media’s onslaught which is dividing us at two different poles; mainly the poles of two religious identities of Islam and Christianity that media is trying to pitch them against each other for the vested interests of few. Otherwise the religion, at it self (of all the denominations) has got nothing to do with the war.

On the other hand; in the history of religion we also see that all the old denominations as a habit have always resisted the new divinely guidance and invariably they mocked their prophets when ever they came to deliver them. It is destined that people go through the different phases of their evolution, i.e., of resistance, mocking, rebellion, but eventually… they come to the terms…repenting. To submit to the will of Almighty. Presently we all are going through a period of mocking (and mockery); and are busy in mud slinging.

So… happy mudslinging… till…
-----------------------------
Love for all, Hatred for none

The Quran, the Hadith, the Sira (update)
Correction

That last URL should be

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_7th_century_Muslim_history

Please note after the death of Muhammad in 632AD, how Syria & Jerusalem fell in 637, Egypt in 642

and by 732 in

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_8th_century_Muslim_history

Muslims were fighting in France



The Quran, the Hadith, the Sira
For everyone else:

You might find in the USA, Muslims who are moderate. That is neither here nor there.
The important point is that the Quran, the Hadith (word and actions of Muhammad) and the Sira (Muhammad's biography) are not moderate and never has been. Muhammad was not moderate. Therefore even if you have 1 moderate Muslim in the USA, it does not follow his/her children or children's children will be.

And the US constitution does not need to change.
Just declare that Islam is a political movement which is contrary to the constitution. This is correct as unlike Christianity which distingiushes between State & Church, Islam makes no such distinction. That is why 58 OIC countries in the world are "Islamic".
You can fight Islam using the existing constitution not on the basis of "religion" but on the basis of "politics" which Islam does interfere in.

For DS:

I think DS you do not understand your own religion. I think you will find that Muslims believe in a principal called "abrogation".
And that means when 2 verses in the Quran contradict each other, the later revalation cancels out the earlier. And it works out that the war-like verses given in Medina are later than the earlier peaceful verses given in Mecca.

So what do you think of

QURAN:
======================

Surah 9:5:
"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)....."

or

Surah 9:123
"O ye who believe! Fight the Unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him".

or

Surah 9:29
Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low."

HADITH:
======================

Then there is Salih Bukhari 9:84:57: "I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Then there is Salih Muslim 19:4294:
"When you meet your enemies who are polytheists [Christians...], invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them ... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them"

HISTORY:
===============
Then there is the choice of Umar (2nd Caliph)
which amounted to non-Muslims had 3 choices:
1st choice - they could become Muslims
2nd choice - if they did not like that, they paid the Jizya tax of protection and lived as 2nd class citizens under Muslim rule providing they were Jews or Christians
3rd choice - they were killed
Exactly what the Hadith confirms.

For those who want to see what "2nd class" meant
see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pact_of_Umar

DS, on history, Muhammad fought numerous battles
and this continued after his death. Please see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_7th_century_Muslim_history.

Why should anyone have their wives raped, or be killed, or be enslaved? Islam has been at war against the rest of the world for 1400 year.


















religion of fear?
Lets do a quick theoretical comparision, shall we?

If you threaten a fundamentalist (new gospel - no Crusader :-) Christian, he is supposed to embrace and hug you.

If you threaten a fundamentalist Buddhist, he is supposed to bless you.

If you threaten a fundamentalist Hindu (at least in the sense of ahimsa) he is to let it happen.

If you threaten a fundamentalist Jew, he might respond in threatening you himself.

A fundamentalist muslim may not wait for you to threaten him: his religion asks him to kill you right ahead. (Simply because you are no muslim...)

I forgot Taoism and Confucianism; but thats it about the large world religions. Am i mistaken, or is there a party on this planet which in one way or another does not share the "all-religions" common ground of peace and compassion at its core?

If nothing else, it makes you wondering...Especially Europeans should read Mark Steyns book on this topic:

http://americaalone.net

By the way: Did someone check out the links which DS supplied? He said they showed Muslims who spoke out against terror... I randomly choose two articles and they were exactly the opposite!!!


islam is not the enemy-another big lie!
So-called moderate muslims may still have an opportunity to speak up and maybe time to reform this death cult named Islam. The West has been patient with little results. We will not hesitate to destroy Islam anymore than we hesitated to destroy Nazis and Japanese murderers. The US and the West has the ability to completely erase this enemy if the situation requires that we do so. Our patience is soon to end!

islam is not the enemy II
"Islam is not the enemy " ..So you say!

Breaking news:


Female Pakistani minister shot dead for 'breaking Islamic dress code'
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article1414137.ece


"Is the woman in a burka my enemy?"

Try this on for size:

Video shown of 21/7 suspect fleeing in burqa
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news


I rest my case.

islam is not the enemy II
"The verses which instruct Muslims how to treat their slaves can't be implemented since we don't have those customs and — thank God — slavery in the modern world"


To Live Free or Die:

Slavery is still alive and strong all over Arabia (I'm not about to honor the saudis) AND imposed in Africa by the moslems. As we write, there are Black Africans being captured and enslaved by moslems.

Black Shroud and Veil
Hey! Let's dress Frank P up in a Black Shroud and a Veil and tell him this is his clothing for life!!! And if he wants to live, he better wear it!

Islam Female's Enemy
Oh, and yes, "allat," Islam is DEFINITELY THE ENEMY FOR FEMALES.

Pastore doesn't have to worry about that, does he? How nice for him!

Naive
Just how many naive pills has Pastore ingested?

Apparently, he's an addict.

Islam is not the enemy
Oh, Yes! Islam IS an enemy!

I've done my research and read the koran. Islam considers me, as a woman, inferior, worth 1/2 of a man. islam's Sharia laws intends for me to wear a black shroud - covering me from face to toe.

Islam intends to impose this idea, and others on the rest of the world. That's acceptable for YOU as a man - you get superduper treatment- but NOT for me. I have NO intention of standing up to serve tea, while you sit and raise a cup to your lips.

islam intends for me to submit to rape and beatings. I have NO intention of submitting.

Why don't you go straight to the koran and read all about it.

Patrick Henry

A lie
DS writes: Sunday, February, 18, 2007 8:01 PM
Dude3344
These people who are blowing themselves up are not trying to convert people and have nothing to do with religion. Their actions are political and they will rot in Hell with all the terrorists who kill innocent civilains.

The koran states that: killing a soul is like killing all mankind.

Also in the koran " Theres no compulsion in the religion"


Spin you lies elsewhere. The killing of a soul was directed to the children of Israel. The no compulsion part was in the Mecca verses of the Qur'an but was later revoked in the Medina verses. Islam is a death cult and has been ever since Mo went to Medina and raised the sword for Islam and Islam has not stopped since. Everything Islam touches, dies.

partsmom
was talking about Arab Christians in my previous post.

partsmom
So Christians and Muslims use the same word "Allah" but they mean 2 different Gods??

That doesn't make sense since Christianity existed 700 years before Islam so they must have called their God a different name.

reform
Islam is not a monolith. This makes it difficult to talk of reform or even "moderation". There are at least three separate Islamic communities: the Shi'ia of Iran, Iraq and Lebanon who have no central authority; the Wahhabi's of Saudi Arabia who convinced that everyone else is wrong and deserving of nothing, and to whom any further reform is anathema; and the traditional Sunni, who may be reformable, but considering that their scholars closed off the possibility of change in the 10th century, it would never include the whole community. Add to that the problem that, as has been mentioned, there are always those who see themselves and chief judges and executioners.
In the early days of Islam, they did not encourage sword-point conversions. One reason is that the Zakat-limited tax only applies to Muslims, so the dhimmi communities could be taxed without limit. Add to this the fact that upward mobility was also pretty well limited to the faithful, simple practical considerations encouraged conversion. Even today, many Muslims don't really care if we convert as long as we "keep our places." The point is more power than anything else.
One problem we have in supporting "moderate" Muslims is that we set them up for charges of
having sold out to unbelievers. They really have to do it themselves, and that will take courage.
I would suspect that the pre-Islamic Christian and Jewish communities spoke mostly Aramic, possibly some Greek, they would have had no reason to use "Allah". Modern Arabic-speaking Christians use "Allah" because there is no other equivalent word in Arabic, and it promotes the idea that they are Godfearing folks rather than pagans.

Phillyjoeski
Do you think those who blow themselves up have a kind of a registery book where everyone can read the names of the culprits??

The only 2 places where you see this happening is in Palestine and Iraq, both considered war zones without any 'authority' that can track them.

In the UK where the alleged suspects plotted to carry out a terrorist attack using jetliners were arrested by the tip of their Muslim friend.

Is Islam the Enemy?
The problem is not the one million moslems who are willing to blow up a bus load of children. Nor, is it the ten million moslems who are willing to help them. Not even the one hundred million moslems who think it is OK.

The problem is one billion moslems who sit back and do nothing about it.

Is it more evil to commit an evil act if you think you are doing right than
it is to do nothing about evil when you recognise it?

The vast majority of moslems who tut, tut the slaughter and do nothing are far worse than those strapping explosives around their waists.

Without the first, the second doesn't exist.

or...
...not. :)

[laughing at self]

I'll be back in a month or so...try to get along without me. :)

Martha

logic, semantics, debate skills
Warrior writes:
You cannot be liberal or Progressive without being a Socialist and by definition a Communist. If you are accurate in your self identification you are a Socialist Communist. Sorry, but that is where you lie on the Political Spectrum.

Martha quotes Lewis:

"'Logic!' said the Professor half to himself. 'Why don't they teach logic at these schools?'"

_The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe_, Chap. V

Dear Warrior, If you think that all liberals/progressives are socialist/communist, I must assume that you have your own definitions of these terms, regardless of what the dictionary's or standard encyclopedia's definitions might be. Pray tell, would you like to give me your definition of an American liberal/progressive? Include references, if at all possible.

While you're at it, what is your definition of "begging the question"?

Thanks!

Not entirely tongue-in-cheek (really!) and realizing I may have set us all up for one doozey of a post,

Martha

Just War Theory
Here is another full article we all should read and understand, If we want to win this so called war ! It is worth your time to read I promise...

http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2006-spring/just-war-theory.asp

Martha
You cannot be liberal or Progressive without being a Socialist and by definition a Communist. If you are accurate in your self identification you are a Socialist Communist. Sorry, but that is where you lie on the Political Spectrum.

Hirsi Ali
"And maybe, just maybe, she’s someone who worries about these things just as I do, and is trying to reform her religion into something that can live peaceably in modernity. "

In the same vein, Hirsi Ali - a prominent opponent of jihad - said to Laurie Goodstein, a reporter for The New York Times, that moderate Muslims ought to change the Koran, the Hadith.

This, however, is an illusion. Unlike previous religions, Islam is unreformable and will never change its verses because the Muslim tradition states that the angel Gabriel visited Muhammad and gave him the words directly from Allah, this as opposed to the Old and New Testament which has been divinely inspired.

It's also worthwhile to remind that in a recent interview with Glenn Beck on CNN Hirsi Ali said: "I don`t have a problem with an Islamic Sharia."
You see, Sharia Law in the West is okay, as long as it is advanced peacefully. This accords well with the observation made by Lawrence Auster "that jihad is not the end of Islam but the instrument by which the end of Islam, which is the rule of Islamic law over the whole earth, is to be achieved."
http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/007294.html

But ultimately the Islamic law strikes at the heart of democracy and is incompatible with modern notions of human rights, with all the values on which Western civilisation and Western political liberty are founded.

bsq thinks I'm a socialist
Now that's funny. Let's see...I...

-have been happily married to a man for 25+ years
-have three grown kids, all gainfully employed
-am gainfully employed, myself
-believe that if you give people too much, you weaken their ability to take care of themselves
-want government not to get too big, including its religious influence
-believe that charitable organizations are usually more effective than government in helping people _get out_ of poverty
-believe Lawrence Summers' statement, that fewer women in colleges of mathematics and engineering might, in part, be due to biological differences between males and females
-actually believe that males, on average, have slightly higher IQs than females
-promised my husband, in our vows, that I would submit to him
-am Mennonite, but believe in the theory of just war

Yeah, boy. I'm a real socialist, and wild feminist, too. Maybe even a Marxist. You need to get out more -- especially, you need to get out of the 50s.

To be fair, I am liberal/progressive in regard to a number of social policies -- but, geez, not fiscally. What makes you think I'm a socialist?

Functioning in a wider sphere of influence,
Martha

Islam DNA
This goes back before the Koran, this goes back to Genesis 11 & 12 when God spoke to Haggar when she was with child (Ishmael)v. 12 ..."His hand will be against everyone. And everyone's hand will be against him. And in Genesis 17:20,21 - "As for Ishmael, I (God) have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve princes, and I will nake him a great nation. But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you (Abraham) at this season next year."

This world conflict is about spiritual DNA, a conflict between two nations, Jews & Muslum...Isaac & Ishmael. Covenant & blessing, and so on.

Truism
"Boogers" under the bed are real, if you believe they are there, and sleep does not come easily. Muslims are killing people all over the world and I am convinced that would not happen if there were no Muslims. That seems to imply two possible solutions: 1. Remove all Muslims from our country, so they cannot cause mischief. No, I still might like to travel to other countries. That leads to 2. Remove all Muslims from the planet. That is one of those things that make you go--Hmmmmm.

Dominance and Allah
DS: You talked of centuries old dominance, which struck me as meaning something on the order of 500 years and not 200 years.

weownthenight: Ok, I went to the site, and it never did answer my question: what word did Arabic-speaking Jews and Christians who lived before Muhammed's time use when they wanted to talk about God? That site implies that it wasn't "Allah," but they never say what word they did use.

bsq
bsq, you can pass off that Israel has been caught spying on us numerous times, but so sorry, I will not. For some reason, I don't look very kindly on spies; especially from our so-called friends. Your assurance to just trust you that "Israel is not spying on us any more than we on them", is more than humorous.

Am I 12? No.

Liberty
Why is Israel spying? C'mon man. Are you really that naive? Every country that has an intelligence capability employs it on everyone else to some extent. Even the British spy on us to some extent and we on them. Information is too valuable to leave it's accumulation to chance. I assure you Israel is not spying on us any more than we on them. What're you...like 12?

Liberty

I have read the OT lately, and I only care what the Koran says when people are using it to convince people to blow me up.
Besides the OT is about Isreal and never about global domination. Islam and Koran wants to convert me and my family if it means kill us.

Isreal is spying on us because it wants to know what we are doing. Not because they want to take us over.

The truth, The whole truth, and
nothing but the truth !! http://www.jihadwatch.org/

Why is Israel spying?
If Israel is so much our friend, why are they spying on us?

FBI looks at Pentagon worker in Israel spy probe
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/08/27/fbi.spy/

Spying on America
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/1/16/110443.shtml

Fox video (Israeli spying) -- multiple parts
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7545.htm

Bible vs. Koran
I have seen several references to the Koran on this board, with regard to it being hate filled. Folks, have you read the Old Testament recently? It is not exactly all about peace and love, you know.

Political Freedom Is the Key
While we talk of rioting Muslims in France, sleeper cells in Britain and America, and intimidation in Denmark----keep one thing in mind

While all of these places guarantee political rights to one degree or another, none of these places are recognized centers of Islamic scholarship.

Those centers of scholarship lie in some of the least politically free parts of the world. In these unfree societies, Imam Bob's good relationship with the local dictator can and often does trump any shortcomings in Imam Bob's scholarship.

In turn, the Hijab Lady on the elevator with Mister Pastore is taught to take her cues on the Koran from scholars in these unfree countries. While she may personally be very uncomfortable with Imam Bob's pronouncements, nobody has dared to challenge Imam Bob substantially on the theological implications of his pronouncements, so what Imam Bob says, stands.

Hijab Lady, or rather her husband and brother, have no religious authority to challenge these guys. Hey, they're engineers, bakers, and physicists, not Islamic scholars.

It takes a well-established Islamic scholar to be able to challenge some of the nonsense coming out of the radical madrassahs, but most Muslims outside Iran, Iraq and Saudi Arabia are *not* Islamic scholars. The ones who are Islamic scholars are mostly sent by and loyal to the problem scholars.

If you want Hijab Lady to be able to condemn terrorism, she needs backing from Islamic scholarship. This means that Islamic scholars need to declare that Imam Bob is full of beans. If you want a respected Islamic scholar to tell Imam Bob that he is, Koranically speaking, full of beans, that Islamic scholar needs to know that he can say so and not find himself dragged off in the night by Imam Bob's pet dictator.

This is why fostering political freedom in the Middle East is so vital to ending terrorism. Political freedoms, especially freedom of speech and worship, will form a marketplace of ideas where good ideas drown out bad ones. When issues in Islamic scholarship get resolved by honest scriptural debate without the ability to resort to force, the product will be an Islam much more compatible with the modern world.

Our enemy is not Islam, rather it is the deterioration of Islam. That deterioration is as much Hijab Lady's enemy as mine or Frank Pastore's.

to GunnyG
QUOTE:I'm reading that book and you are correct. Although I'm wondering if we suddenly switched to a 1950's America, would the hatred stop? I doubt that decades of Anti-American hatred, taught to illiterates by experts in propaganda, can be overcome that easily.END

I don't think the D'Souza book was intended as a "complete" answer to the Muslim problem but I think he hits on some themes that do indeed ring true. The theme that we must win the "culture war" against the libs in this country is absolutely true. I think it would certainly "help" our image in the Muslim world -- but you are certainly correct to point out that years of anti-American propaganda are going to be difficult to overcome; perhaps impossible.

I don't think Dude3344 is thinking clearly when he says he'd rather ally himself with decadent liberals than condescend to the fact that perhaps some of the criticism leveled at the West by Muslims has an element of truth to it.

The D' Souza book highlighted for me the importance of winning the culture war -- not just for the U.S. but for victory for all societies working to promote traditional values. If the U.S. goes the way of its Cold War enemies it will be for the same reason -- internal corruption.

That's all you see
>But the fact remains that we see none of the so-called moderates in the middle east. All we see is hate and intolerance and a call to Jihad against the west.<

Of course, when you have tunnel vision, it's difficult to look objectively at the world. I suggest you research Iraqi Kurdistan, the repeat your statement with a straight face.

Moderate
No one has said that the US should bomb Mecca now. The comment was made that if the terrorists hit us again as bad as 911 or worse, that would justify that sort of action. Personally, I don't think our government would go that far even then, but there would be some kind of hell to pay.

To say that no moderate Muslim would protest terrorism because no one would believe them or listen to them is just a copout.

Admittedly, beyond protesting or otherwise establishing their pro-American bonafides, there is not much an American Muslim like yourself can do about terrorism, but ME moderates who are closer to the major troublemankers better start doing something about them.

And poor little adaminijad in Iran. All he really wants is nuclear power, while at the same time making threats against Israel that would require nuclear weapons to accomplish. Come on, Moderate. Get your head out of your butt. How dumb do you think we are?

We've missed it
The most horrifying post here has gone unremarked. Martha said she had some female Muslim acquaintances that were more "progressive" than she is. Stop and wrap your mind around that one if you can. Ignoring for a moment the cognitive dissonance created by the expression "progressive Muslim", it is truly terrifying to consider the possibility of anyone, regardless of their religion, that is more "progressive" (read Socialist) than Martha. Now that is scary!

qwerty
I'm reading that book and you are correct. Although I'm wondering if we suddenly switched to a 1950's America, would the hatred stop? I doubt that decades of Anti-American hatred, taught to illiterates by experts in propaganda, can be overcome that easily.

Dude and others
Maybe I have better things to do then sit behind my computer for an entire afternoon while no one listens to me. I've tried it before, Lydia just keeps spewing the same crap without really listening. How can you convince anyone of anything when everyone just believes that you are a liar? You misunderstood my post about bombing Mecca. There has been only one lesser jihad on a multi-national scale before, an occasion when muslims where called upon to DEFEND their beliefs: The crusades. This left the region ravaged and war battered for centuries, killing many innocents on both sides. If Mecca is obliterated, then you will have a jihad that will last FOREVER! There will never be any trust or peace between muslims or christians ever again. That is a prediction based on history, not a threat. Imagine if somebody nuked Washington D.C., would Americans not have the same reaction. Moderates do not come forth and protest because nobody would believe them, as has been plainly stated here, muslims only seek to decieve nonmuslims. Muslims apparently shouldn't take political action or office either, Mr. Ellison has already done so and all of you have ridiculed his efforts of peace and practice of American Democracy. Muslims already fight in the Iraq War, with their brothers against those who pretend to be their brothers. Terrorists are not muslims they only pretend to be. If you suggest that as Americans we disintegrate an innocent city, full of innocent people, in order to scare the terrorists, then you are a far more terrible terrorist than any jihadist. As for what to do about the jihadists, stop interfering with middle eastern affairs, America has already thrown Iraq into a vicious civil war, is providing propagandists with ample ammunition to recruit more soldiers, is continually preparing the American public for a war with Iran, who only wishes to join the ranks of the nuclear powers. with all the threats, can you blame Iran for wanting weapons? Try this, global disarmament. Work towards peace, blood shed will only bring more years of sorrow. stop making enemies of the muslim people and instead make enemies of the terrorists. I haven't responded to any posts because I had other things to do, don't try twisting my abscence into some kind of cowardice or ignorance. You should realize that this is a debate over the internet and not a person to person discussion.

To virginia: We believe there is only one God, God or Allah, or Yaweh, or whatever. ONLY ONE are the key words. The trinity suggests that there are three Gods. It also suggests that God has mortal qualities like mortality and conception. God is a deity, an all powerful force, not a person. Allah and God are the same and the belief of Jesus as God is just one difference between the religions. Above is just the muslim rationale.

To A Moderate Muslim
Mustafa Akyol's "A Case For Islamic Renewal" is precisely what is needed but, this can only be done by Muslims (Moderate Muslims?). Such a suggestion would never even be contemplated if it were put forward by a non-Muslim. And, do not the hadiths prohibit any such review (isn't that a convenient law to include in an interpretation, that the interpretation can never be questioned or over-ruled).

Below are some bullet points that I have extracted from Frank Pastore's article. Perhaps you could have these points addressed in the "Renewal".

“Plato addressed the theological-political problem in his Laws back in the 5th century B.C. [e.g., before the time of the Prophet Muhammad] Today, for most of us, the problem occurs in the struggle to reconcile two conflicting beliefs.”

“…Christians, … believe Islam is a false religion–and the belief is reciprocal.”

“As Americans, we believe in the free exercise of religion, including Islam–but this belief is not reciprocal.”

“…Christianity teaches the Golden Rule while Islam doesn’t. The Koran teaches that every Muslim is superior to every non-Muslim and that men are superior to women.”

“Either the West will cease to be the West, or Islam will cease to be Is-lam. But the two cannot blend and remain what they are. It is the defining characteristic of each that it has almost nothing in common with the other.”

“In Islam, the world is divided into the world of believers, dar al Islam, and that of unbelievers, dar al harb. Islam is not merely at war with the West, it is at war with the world.”

“Does Islam believe in the separation of church and state, that all men are created equal, that there should be no religious test for political office holders, that government ought to be secular?”

“What do nearly all the problem spots around the world have in common?”

“What dominant Muslim country has anything approaching real human rights?”

“Where are the Muslim denunciations of violence, terrorism, genocide, and slavery coming from the many mosques, universities, newspapers and capitols throughout the Muslim world?”

“…where are the condemnations of these things coming from the American Muslim community?”

“The loudest and most clear message we non-Muslims hear from the Muslim world is “Convert, submit to Dhimmitude, or die.”

America must defend it's constitution
We defend the constitution by protecting it from all who wish to destroy it. No matter where they come from.
When you enter the country you make promises to uphold the laws and principles for which it stands then you commit to learn to speak the language. I do not understand how simplicity escapes the morons in office.
You do not attack Islam you atack an idealogy. If Islam happens to be a part of that ideology so be it.
The problem is Islam is by nature militant. Yhe generation that is comming here may want to be part of Americ but about the future ones. What happens when the left needs votes and convinces them they are victims.

to DS
DS,

Don't know if you read my posting about Dinesh D' Souza new book which posits liberal U.S. policies, especially since the Carter administration, as creating the atmosphere for the attack on U.S. soil on 9/11. The U.S. had a dependable ally in the Shaw of Iran but Carter administration officials persuaded that for the U.S. to be consistent in its stand on "Human Rights" (foreign policy principle of the Carter administration) it had to oppose the Shaw of Iran. What the U.S., in effect, did was bring to power the first radical Muslim regime in contemporary society.

Another point D'Souza makes is that ALL Muslims, radical and traditional (moderate) are totally abhorrent of the decadence of U.S. culture. The sexual revolution begun in the 60's and its fruits - abortion, divorce, wanton sexuality and seeming acceptance in American culture is a great cause of concern to Muslims who look upon this as a threat to Muslim society; especially since the U.S. is so free to export our vices as well as our economic strength and know how to the world. There is a real propaganda war going on presently in Muslim cultures by radical Muslims to portray the West as decadent and pagan. Bin Laden wants nothing more than make this a clash of civilizations struggle -- West vs Muslims. If he can convince the Muslim world that the West is hopelessly lost in its decadence then these "moderate" Muslims are going to join his cause. What D' Souza proposes is that morally conservative America makes direct appeals to promote moral causes that traditional Muslims will also support that will effectively disarm Bin Laden's clash of civilizations premise. Moderate Muslims CAN be our ally but we cannot allow the left in this country to define America with its immoral relativism where there is no right and wrong absolutes and we also cannot lump all Muslim peoples as evil and repudiate their religion and leaders. The U.S. has got to put out its propaganda that the U.S. is NOT the pagan immoral cesspool that Bin Laden is portraying it to be. All the more reason to fight the liberal left in our country and not lead us into a senseless war which would be absolutely enormous in its destruction.

Christians must support correct moral positions even when they come from our Muslim neighbors.

The Same God?
Moderate writes: "They don't understand that Allah and God are the same, and that Christians and Jews are seen as brothers to Muslims, even as Muslims themselves. We all believe in the same God."

We do? And here I thought Muslims didn't believe in a Triune God like Christians. I thought they regarded Jesus as a mere prophet, and not God incarnate. In fact, I thought thought belief in a Triune God was blasphemy in Islam. (See the Koran, Surah 5:73.) Moderate, are your fellow Muslims aware that you believe Jesus is Allah?

But hey, if we all believe in the same God, then I guess there's no need for me to convert to Islam.

Dude3344
I dont know how to stop the terrorists from attacking America again. But blaming every single Muslim for the actions of the few will only make matters worse. Islam and American Muslims are not the enemy. We are Americans first, and will defend this country like any other American would.

The American Muslim community could be a great resource against terrorism in the US.Lets embrace each other as Americans and fight these nuts together. Remember, the terrorists in the UK were ratted by their Muslim "freind' who became suspicious of their activities.

Lynne
What do you mean?? LOL. I provided you an independent source to back up my statement. are you telling me that you believe the extremists who fabricate their own brand of islam and not the main stream islam??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Pillars_of_Islam


Dude3344
These people who are blowing themselves up are not trying to convert people and have nothing to do with religion. Their actions are political and they will rot in Hell with all the terrorists who kill innocent civilains.

The koran states that: killing a soul is like killing all mankind.

Also in the koran " Theres no compulsion in the religion"

Lynne
Did you at least read my post. I responded to a poster who claims that jihad is one of the pillars of islam. I corrected him and provided the link citing that Jihad is not part of the 5 pillars of islam. Thats why i said theres no jihad in relation to his post.