Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Sunday, January 28, 2007
Frank Pastore :: Townhall.com Columnist
Why So Few Christian Patriots?
by Frank Pastore
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


With poll after poll revealing only half of those who self-identify as Christians voting, you’ve got to wonder why. Of all people, shouldn’t Christians know how precious and fragile this experiment in self-government is. Why is it that so many of them think “Christian Patriot” is an oxymoron?

Perhaps they know not because they’ve been taught not.

My own “political testimony” is a classic example…

–––

A mutual friend had thought it a good idea to get me together with Dr. Larry Arnn, then the president of the Claremont Institute (today he’s the President of Hillsdale College). The idea was to brainstorm about doing some joint speaking events. I, the popular Christian apologist from Talbot School of Theology, would do the Christian thing. Dr. Arnn would do the conservative-political thing. The idea was to do some cross pollination: to get Christians to care about conservative politics, and to get conservatives to care about Christian theology. This was our first get-together–just the three of us over coffee.

I started the conversation after the initial round of polite greetings.

“Larry, I’m an evangelical Christian, and I really think we just need to help people–conservatives especially–understand that this was a Christian nation. The only real way to turn America around is to get the Church serious about walking with the Lord again. We’ve simply moved too far away from our Christian roots, that’s the whole problem.,” I said.

“Frank, I’m a Christian too. But, if–as you believe–all the answers are in the New Testament teachings of Jesus, then why do you think it took eighteen centuries for there to be an America? Why would Christians want to create a new government when both the Lord and Romans teach that we are to obey whomever is in power, even tyrants? Furthermore, how would Christians know how to do such a thing? After all, Jesus never raised an army, levied a tax, guided a policy debate in a legislature, or administered a government,” he said with quiet confidence.

I was stunned. I honestly had never considered any of these questions.

“I’ve got no clue,” I confessed.

For the next two hours, Dr. Arnn laid out the broad contours of an answer. I had never heard anything like it. It was the story of political philosophy, the story of Christianity, the story of Western Civilization, and the story of the American founding all rolled into one. He ranged with ease from Plato’s Republic to the Federalist Papers, with stops along the way at Jesus, Augustine, Aquinas, Machiavelli, Jefferson and others–all off the top of his head–often quoting from memory.

Why have I never heard any of this? And if I haven’t heard it–and I’m a professor at a Christian college–I guarantee a whole lot of Christians haven’t either.

You see, it isn’t that Americans have lost their Christian roots, it’s that Christians have lost their American roots. They don’t know that the American story, and the larger story of Western Civilization, is their story. No wonder they don’t vote. They don’t understand America was and is the greatest expression of Christian values in all of history.

They don’t understand politics is theology applied–it’s how we live out our faith.

Adequate answers to Dr. Arnn’s excellent questions range far beyond the scope of this limited column. But, for now, here’s a few humble suggestions to think about.

It took so long for there to be an America because so many things had to get worked out. In the ancient world, all laws came from the local gods, and the ruler was therefore both king and priest. As Rome expanded, they would attempt to accommodate all of these local religions into their Pantheon. Rome paved the way for the later acceptance of monotheism. A universal empire made it easier for a universal religion.

Yet, who should rule? The one, the few, or the many? It took many centuries for democracy to displace monarchy, aristocracy, and the divine right of kings. A king may be God’s man on earth, but what to do about succession?

Only equals can trust one another with the responsibilities, duties, and privileges of democracy. Equality is the precondition for democracy. For why would you allow someone not your equal to have a vote as valuable as yours? But who are one’s equals? If no man is born with a saddle on his back, can there be such a thing as a natural slave? If all men have equal standing before God, then why does one own the labor of another? There would be a Civil War over this.

Jesus’ radical “Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s, and to God that which is God’s ” (Mt. 22:21) simply remade the world. It is the source of both the separation of church and state, private property, and the idea of limited government. No man should be both Caesar and High Priest, nor should the state have authority over the soul, the conscience, or the fruits of one’s labor.

So much for trying to do Western Civ. in a few paragraphs.

Let me just suggest that each element of this four-part calculus plays a critical role: Old Testament, New Testament, Declaration of Independence, and Constitution. Omit one, and the whole thing breaks down. Fail to understand each precedent, and the consequent hangs in mid air. You’ve got to know where you’ve been to know where you are.

Perhaps I can ask you a question.

Think of what it is conservatives are trying to conserve, what liberals are attempting to liberate from, and what progressives are striving to progress toward. Think of the utopias of each. Would you want to live in that society? If not, why not? What are you doing today to make sure that doesn’t happen? That’s politics. Someone’s vision of the future is being implemented today in the here and now. Whose will it be? That’s why you vote.

American Christians have overcome more evil, promoted more good, and advanced more justice than any people in history. Every American ought to be indebted to the Judeo-Christian value system that is the foundation of our American superstructure. Every Christian, regardless of where they’re from, should admire this wondrous thing called America that has been the best political expression of our Lord’s teachings.

Jesus may never have raised an army, levied a tax, guided a policy debate in a legislature, or administered a government. But He has raised us up to do these things in His name. May we be faithful to His high calling.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
The Frank Pastore Show is heard in Los Angeles weekday afternoons on 99.5 KKLA and on the web at kkla.com, and is the winner of the 2006 National Religious Broadcasters Talk Show of the Year. Frank is a former major league pitcher with graduate degrees in both philosophy of religion and political philosophy.
 
TOWNHALL DAILY: Be the first to read Frank Pastore's column. Sign up today and receive Townhall.com daily lineup delivered each morning to your inbox.
Proud to be an American
God has used America for a great deal of good. Pastore says, "You see, it isn’t that Americans have lost their Christian roots, it’s that Christians have lost their American roots. They don’t know that the American story, and the larger story of Western Civilization, is their story." My guess is many university students get the typical "University 101" propaganda of anti-Americanism from the works of Zinn and Chomsky and Blum. They hear how evil America has been—and what country doesn't have skeletons?—and these students slowly drift to the Left, at least politically, feeling ashamed to be an American. Pastore is right—without the Christian values American was founded on, the America that's done so much good in the world would never have existed. American Christians would do well to vote.

Kevin L. Howard, http://www.NeedNotFret.com

Man's System Will End Anyway.......
Why try to prolong the inevitable. Man's self government will come to a close anyway. We cannot add a day or subtract a day from this system of things.

Christian values
While discussing Christianity with a Mormon friend, he showed me their newest (at the time) recruiting video, I forget the title. In it, the Book of Mormon was discussed as a sequel, or continuation, to the Bible. One scene showed a hand holding both Books in a single grip.

That scene made me uncomfortable, though I'm not sure why. The concept of the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution as four equal parts disturbs me the same way. It's as if man were trying to foist off his own works as equals of God's works, I think.

That point aside, while arguing politics with a liberal friend, I always say 'this country was build on Christian values'. This concept takes it a step further. I wouldn't mind hearing more from Dr. Arnn.

America and Christianity
I have now been away from teaching in the USA for 40 years. It should surprise me that history professors in the USA have gone so far away from patriotism and loving the coutry, but I am not. One could see it coming, early in the 60's, when the likes of Chomsky and other America haters took over the universities and colleges. What can be done to correct this? I really don't know. One can only cry over it, and hope somebody will find the right answer for it. Having been so long, and so far away from it all, I really wish I had an answer for it. It is a suicidal thing, and I have no experience in dealing with suicides.

How do we choose which Christian values
to adopt?

I mean there are ideas universally recognized as good like love thy neighbor, strong families, give charity...

And then you have stuff in Leviticus about slaves and stoning people to death.

Patriotism

What is patriotism? Does it mean to you that we should agree with what some of our public servants, and others, behind the scenes, are doing in twisting and stomping on the form of government (Republic) that our Founding Fathers gave us? Is that patriotism? Is that love of country? I say, NO. Loving your country has more to do with watching closely to stop anyone that would subvert or overthrow our Republic, whether that overthrow would occur quickly, or slowly but surely through multiple administrations and congresses that we the people, elected.

Patriotism is much more than waving a flag, or saying you "love America". It takes careful diligence and action to stop those who would like nothing other than to throw out the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and our sovereignty as a nation. In fact, many of our Founding Fathers warned us to be vigilant. Unfortunately, we did not heed their warning.


was our present state anticipated?
We give a lot of credit to the Founding Fathers, and rightly so. To have understood so much, to have properly debated and then set down on paper so much, and all by the light of candles is truly amazing and humbling. It makes me wonder if our present state of country was anticipated by them. Does any reader know or have insight on this? Did they, or some of them, foresee the strength and maturity of what they wrought changing into the selfish, thoughtless, and ignorant (of history and roots and blessings and founding ideals) country we have become?

Adversity and hardship
seem to lead to spirituality. They say there are no atheists in foxholes. Affluence and comfort lead men to feel puffed up and secure in themselves. Spiritual values seem unimportant when materialism is so successful. When values fade, nothing seems worth defending, even the values that brought about the affluence. And so empires and cultures are superseded by hungrier, more passionate barbarian cultures. If we are lucky, we'll be a comfortable sideshow as India and China duke it out for world domination.

American History
As a Christian I long for God's government which has no end.
The bible also says that when we get to heaven when we labor we will not be taxed on that labor.

As far as American history is concern, I wouldn't consider slavery a Christian act of following Jesus. Nor would I consider stealing the Indians land or the slaughtering of their race Christian.

We must be careful to follow God and not men.
That's our problem today. We listen to too many men and their views of the world instead of putting on God's view of the world which has no allegence to any country on earth.

We need more men who are sold out to God instead of an idea or a political party.

We don't know what we've lost . . .
Pastore is right in many ways, but also I believe they do not know what they are missing. In 2 generations it is unbelievable what has been lost. I have never seen the Patriotism and valor of the men of WWII or prior up close and personal, as I have never known anyone from these generations well. I also have never had the next best thing, which is an education in what made them great and patriotic, a solid foundation in what made this nation great and can make it great again. This is, as Pastore noted, an understanding of the interplay between Christian values and the politics of our unique nation. They don’t understand the obvious reality of the centrality in Christian values that underpin so much of the founder’s ideas and what they laid out. On large part they do not hold these values either. I believe both the Christian church and the government are weak because the values that have served as pillars and a foundation for both have been lost. It is an odd thing to see “Christians” that value life in word only and “Americans” that believe in Communism. It is hard to understand someone that can accept a message and yet not accept the logic that makes that message rational and true.

***I say they here because I was there, but am making continuing personal discovery as we speak.

The battle of "hometown" cultures
The First Amendment was never intended to ban religion from the public square. It was intended to ensure that the government neither mandated a single religion as had been done tried Europe nor permit the persecution of those believing in God in a different way from our own. That is not what is taught in the USA today, not just in American schools but throughout much of our popular culture. One comment in a Jefferson letter, taken out of context, a wall between religion and government, has been used as a forced barrier by secular atheist and the Left generally to try and remove God and most especially from the Christian perspective from government. In doing so we are now faced with a cultural war where to two polar opposite are unwilling to compromise mutual defense of "we the people".

Today it is probable that a illegal alien Muslim or a Satanic cult member would receive more protection and consideration by the American media and the Democratic Leadership than the lowliest of American Christians.

Yet many Christian refuse to understand that politics are "Caesar's realm." Many Christian are willing to allow the election of bad politicians by not going to the polls because no candidate in a election passes the complete litmus test of Christian values. In other words the candidate does not believe in God exactly they way they do. By not voting or by demanding near perfection in a candidate's campaign platform Christian voters do themselves and the country a great disservice. In turn they put our Judea-Christian traditions at greater risk.

When conservatives and Christian voters do not come out to vote the Left always wins and we take another step towards becoming a total secular atheist country or now having to bow down to Islam. The idea is to vote for the best candidate, not the perfect candidate. By not voting one gets a candidate totally opposite to our views elected by default as we saw in the last election.

Already our English Common Law tradition is under direct threat by the removal of the Ten Commandments from the public discourse. Removing such foundations place our house on shifting sands and in great peril.

And, mean while as we fight a cultural battle between to polar opposties here at home between the atheist left and the religious right, we face a far more terrible enemy that has sworn our country's forced conversion to an entirely different religion or total destruction.

to Davy's Crock...
Now what you wrote is what I consider to be un-American, or just plain yellow-belly behavior.

I realize you long to be with God, as many of us do, however, while you are HERE on earth, would you rather live in a gulag, or would you rather be free? If it is the latter, you'd better pull your head out of the sand and get involved.

God told us to stand up against his enemies. Who exactly do you think these people are that would like nothing more than to overthrow this country (slowly, but nonetheless overthrow)?

Tony
I'm not sure whether the Founding Fathers thought we as Americans would become so apathetic and ignorant of history as we have become. It amazes even me. They did warn us to be vigilant after all. However, they did foresee that some would try to take control, that is why they wrote the Constitution to limit what the federal government could be involved in and to break it up into 3 branches.

"In questions of power, then, let no more be said of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution." -- Thomas Jefferson

What we have been doing is exactly the opposite. We have allowed one branch to assume powers delegated to the other branches. We have allowed all kinds of unconstitutional legislation to be passed and enacted. We apparently have chosen to "just trust" those in power that they will not abuse their new found power. We seem to have done this because we were scared. However, we were even warned about that.

"Those who give up essential liberties for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

Just like the story of the frog being boiled, we have allowed our country to be subverted, right before our very eyes.

God and Country
I was so glad to read this column...Hugh Hewitt plays interviews with Larry Arnn on these matters as "holiday stand-ins." I would urge all to listen to them if they can.

IMHO we Christians need to understand that we are part of an army of God here on earth and must exercise a more muscular practice of our faith. We know the Truth and it's time we started acting as though we do and get over the seditious and seductive wiles of the Hallmark card version of Christianity.

Definition of Patriotism?
This is a great piece. It reminds us especially that young people today don't receive an education that prepares them to hang with Dr. Arnn.

Two points, however:

1. I can't take on faith Pastore's tacit assumption that 49% of Christians not voting is evidence that that many Christians lack "patriotism." This seemed to be an unsupported premise at the outset. A perhaps more likely factor is that 49% of recently-polled Christians couldn't find someone to vote for. Additionally, a sense of patriotism is historically natural in optimistic and traditionalist people, which Christians tend to be -- even when most citizens are unfamiliar with the philosophical underpinnings of their form of government, as people usually are. In short, I'm not sure an absence of "patriotism," per se, is what we're talking about here.

2. I'm all for improving our understanding of how Christian principles led to the creation of America -- and now no other principles, by themselves, could have. I would caution Christians, however, that Jesus and His Apostles accomplished God's greatest purpose WITHOUT raising an army, levying a tax, guiding a policy debate in a legislature, or administering a government. We are too ready, today, to think that our political arrangements ARE the way that we relate to others, up to and including how we execute the Great Commission. We've fallen into a way of thinking that God must give us POLITICAL triumph in America, or we cannot do His will. Indeed, even that His purpose for every human -- repentance and salvation -- can be thwarted by temporal political arrangements.

We should be Christians at the ballot box, and should never lose sight of the fact that only because of Jesus Christ could there be an America. But we also mustn't forget that temporal government is not our final refuge, or the answer to the needs of our unsaved fellows on earth. We will not reach out to our neighbor in the way he needs through the political process, but through the Body of Christ.

Christians and Politics
I have reviewed the arguments and thoughts here with some interest, as this touches upon a subject that is very near to my heart.

Desu writes "How do we choose which Christian values to adopt?" Actually there is a simple answer. When asked what the most important commandment was Jesus answered by quoting the first of the Ten Commandments:(paraphrasing) "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, strength and mind." He went on to state that "on this hang all the law and the prophets." Then Jesus said that "the second is like it." We are to love God first, one another second. If we hold everything we do against that yardstick, and like Jesus do nothing except what we see done by the Father in heaven, we will not even have to choose, as we will do those things by default.

Now for Davy's Crock's comments. They are, if you will excuse the pun, a crock! I have seen people try to use this excuse time and again. 99 percent of the time that is all it really is, an excuse not to be involved. First of all, it all belongs to God, so why are you worrying about taxes? He owns it all now, and He will own it all in heaven.

Yes some bad things have been done in this country. A number of our founders recognized the evils of slavery, but they also recognized that at that moment in history, emancipation was not a viable option. To insist upon it would have caused this nation to be still born. That does not nullify this country's Judeo-Christian roots. (BTW did you know the revolution was largely bankrolled by a Jewish banker.)

This nation was founded by believers, upon Judeo-Christian principles, and guided by those same principles. If you don't believe me just read the writings of our founders, presidents and other leaders. Yes they did not do everything "right" but who does? By and large, even with all it's warts, this nation has done it a lot "righter" then any other in history.

Yes we need to follow God and not man, or more correctly obey God, but that does not exclude or excuse us from being politically active. Someone else made a comment about this being "Caesar's realm." Again I have seen many use this as an excuse to not be involved, this also is a farce. This country is founded upon a representative form of government. As Abraham Lincoln so eloquently stated a "government of the people, by the people, and for the people."

In this form of government we ARE Caesar. Though it seems those in DC often forget it, we are the "rulers" and they are the servants of the public at large. Voting is more than a right under our form of government, it is a responsibility and an obligation. When we fail to vote, fail to express our opinions and values in a public forum, we abdicate our God-given duty to rule justly according to His perfect will.

I believe it was one of our founders who stated that "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." We must be vigilant to observe what our government is doing, what the press is saying, what is happening around us, and then to act vigilantly to address those areas where we may have begun to stray.

Someone else said all it takes for evil to triumph is for a few good men to do nothing. Conversely, all it takes for evil to fail is for good men to do what is right. Let's all act according to our God-given rights and responsibilities to get involved and vote. (Yes God-given, if you study history it is clear that it is only through divine intervention that this country was established.) If we do, then together we will see this country step into the destiny written for it.

Why many Christians are Liberals ..
I have a different take on this. And, given the comments on this thread in response to this article, most of you may disagree!

Please review the articles titled:
"Why some good, religious people are Liberals", which identifies a vulnerability in the arguments of Christian conservatives.

AND ..

"The United States of .. Consistency?", which attempts to debunk the theory that America owes its success due to the fact that we are a Christian Nation

These articles may be found at the following link:
http://voice.townhall.com

Feel free to post your comments directly at that link.

Probable?
>Today it is probable that a illegal alien Muslim or a Satanic cult member would receive more protection and consideration by the American media and the Democratic Leadership than the lowliest of American Christians.<

It's probable that this is the single most disingenous sentence that will appear in this thread.


Whose God?
>Yes we need to follow God and not man, or more correctly obey God, but that does not exclude or excuse us from being politically active.<

Since you insist that the country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles(principles you fail to identify), you obviously mean the God of the Bible. So, needing to follow God, not man, and obeying God, translates to establishing a religion in deference to the 1st amendment.

Vote for what?
When a patriotic Christian is absent from the polls, could it not be that the experience of voting has resulted in consequences either ineffectual to the furtherment of a social compact that embraces the principles of Christian living or worse at crosscurrents to it? And is that not what's happening to us? And then would not the sane step away and evaluate whether voting has or will continue to frustrate the will of the voter? And then ponder some other avenue up to and sadly including resignation?
The war over Supremem Court nominees was all the evidence I needed that we are a nation of men and no longer a nation of laws. That these nominees could be and would be expected to adhere to a legal philosophy that could be separated out from the law itself. The laws, such as they are, serve as no more than a sheer neglige' of covering for an arisen aristocracy in this nation.
So I ask: what, not who, am I voting for today?











Thank you, Thank you, Thank you
For the last three posts. As I read down through the first group, I felt my eyes bleed.

It is no secret that Republicans and religious conservatives do their best to keep America as divided as possible. An hour of listening to conservative talk radio is simple proof of that, also, just reading this blog is further proof. Kevin McCullough's column today is called "Why Liberals hate Christians". What is that if not a divisive, hate-filled, fear mongering rant by a third rate writer? (Naturally, as is always the case with McCullough, it turns into a meditation on homosexuality). How many posts on this thread warn against devil-loving liberals and democrats?

Liberals don't hate Christians, or Mormons, or Buddhists, or Muslims. They just don't like the ones who are mean-spirited, sanctimonious, or power obssessed.


What's more
Dessu wrote, " How do we choose which Christian values to adopt?....I mean there are ideas universally recognized as good like love thy neighbor, strong families, give charity...

And then you have stuff in Leviticus about slaves and stoning people to death.

...............................................

Why not just choose the ones you like, Desu. Everybody else does. Most of the people posting here have already trashed the one about loving thy neighbor.

utahnotmormon
utahnotmormon writes: Sunday, January, -snip- So, needing to follow God, not man, and obeying God, translates to establishing a religion in deference to the 1st amendment.

Actually, no. The first amendment was specifically written to protect against the establishment of a "state religion." One only has to study the religious history of many who came to America and the writings of the founders to understand this truth. Jefferson's famous statement about a "wall of separation between church and state." was written in reply to these very specific concerns.

I did not, nor did anyone else advocate such establishment. To obey God could only mean that with a very, very long stretch of imagination. To live, work and vote according to your Judeo-Christian values is no more an establishment of religion than to do so according to Atheistic, (yes atheism is, by definition, a religion,)or any other set of values. How else would we vote?

I did not enumerate what the Judeo-Christian values are, as they are or should be self evident to any serious student. At any rate, I had already summed them up with the words of Jesus earlier.

a land full of ignorami, even back then
Tony asks of the founding fathers:
"Did they, or some of them, foresee the strength and maturity of what they wrought changing into the selfish, thoughtless, and ignorant (of history and roots and blessings and founding ideals) country we have become?"

Yes, they did. That's one reason they put in place the Electoral College instead of directly electing the president. That's why they made sure senators could serve for six years and do what is prudent and appropriate, to balance the actions of members in the House whose terms is only two years and thus makes them more susceptible to the whims of the masses.

Christian Nation?
The folks that settled this great land or ours came from predominately Christian nations - up until the great flow from Europe at the turn of the 20th Century most of the folks were Christians and brought their religion with them - the Big Ranger didn't form the United States - the settlers did and they were for the most part Christians - my ancestors were Methodists and left Connecticut for the North Shore of Long Island in 1649 to escape religious persecution - Puritanism being the religion of choice in New England at that time and nothing else - so when we got the rules down we decided that we would have freedom of religion and separation of state and church - ducking what had happened in England and France

Vote for what?
It is almost never a vote for what, but for whom. Will you find a perfect candidate? Not this side of eternity. You might not even find a near perfect candidate. Living in Vermont, land of the liberal, I do not often find a candidate I can fully support. It then becomes a question of who most fully supports those principles I find most important. I may never find a candidate I can fully support, but I can always find one whom I feel is the best choice in that particular race. After all is said and done, that is all we are called to do.

Misunderstood
When Hisfool advocated that WE need to follow God, not man, using the plural instead of the singular "I", I misunderstood that to mean he thought the citizens of the US, as an entity, needed to follow and obey God, the God of his persuasion.

That position would obviously be opposed to the establishment clause.

Hisfool
That's a really good point. Up until the last couple of years, when everythng became so polarized, I frequently voted back and forth, on both sides of the Republican/Democratic divide. In those days one could feel that almost any candidate could be said to have the best interests of the country in mind, but that kind of trust has been trashed for the past 10- 15 years, and it is no longer possible to look at issues by themselves, or to assume that what you see is what you get. The manipulation and exploitation of the religious right by Republicans in order to secure voting blocks has destroyed honest and open debate and left us with nothing but bumper sticker rhetoric and cynical, dishonest sloganeering.

Questions??
I've often pondered the questions like those of Mr. Pastore. But basically the questions I ask myself are.. What has happened to our Country and it's people? How did we get to the sad state we're in?

Unfortunately, there are no simple answers. But I have come to the conclusion that one of the biggest problems, and perhaps the main reason is Apathy. The average American citizen today, while under the protection of our great nation and the freedom it provides for all. Takes his place and existence for granted. Going about his/her business as though it will always be there.

And we can't blame them, to an extent. Survival of the individual and family is first and foremost in the Human Being. For most this means working every day to make a living. Giving little or no thought to politics. After all, we have put our trust and faith in those we elect to do the job right. So why should we worry about it?

It's sad now to see the fallacy of our thinking as those in government use this weakness against us. While they slowly turn our country to a Socialist State. Whether Christian or not we can not keep turning the other cheek. Just look at the liberals posting here as they work to support those in government for the socialist effort.

American values not Christian
The main principles of American government -- democracy, guarantees of rights -- are not Christian in origin. They appear nowhere in the Bible.

Being in the Judeo side of Judeo-Christian, I don't know much about the new Testament, but there is lots of discussion of good and bad government in the books of Kings. Josiah was a good king because he suppressed other religions being in his kingdom and raised taxes.

Goshawk
"Just look at the liberals posting here as they work to support those in government for the socialist effort."

--------------------------------------------

That's exactly the kind of bumper-sticker, dumbed-down, irresponsible drivel that infects these blogs - up until this sentence I had actually started agreeing with you - but in the end, you supersized religio-patriots never fail to disappoint.

JayJay
True, true, there has been much polarization and outright lying, more than enough to go around. However the argument must be made that this has been happening on both sides of the aisle.

At least as much blame for the current polarization we see in this country has to be laid at the feet of the liberals as the conservatives. Don't give me the old argument that this was not a problem before conservative talk radio came into being. It started to be an issue when conservatives especially conservative Christians woke up and started to express their views in public.

I say at least as much blame, because it has been my personal observation that as a whole the arguments coming from the liberal side seem to be much more vitriolic and ... well... downright intolerant than those opposing them.

Unfortunately there are those who would try to exploit both sides. That is why it is the duty of every citizen to study the issues, study the people, and then prayerfully and carefully vote for those who best represent your views.

Christian Patriots
The reason, as you well know, that people are not identifying themselves as "Christians" is because media personalities, like yourself, have identified Christianity and changed the meaning to be synonymous with hateful extremism.
Christians who are ALLOWED to think and make decisions, on their own, without getting their opinions approved by some "leader" and without fear of banishment because they don't hold the same political ideology as that leader, know the difference between voluntary faith and forced political adherence. They understand the religious repercussions of trying to use God to further political ideology, no matter what their individual political philosophies are.
Sharon Dupree

Vote American
This grand experiment in government of the people, by the people for the people is being usurped by government of the corporations, by the corporations, fro the corporations.
The primary responsibility of the U.S. government is to protect the territorial integrity and people of this country. They have completely abdicated this responsibility. Both parties have been complicit in this. We are being told it is not possible to control our borders, enforce our laws, and thereby control our destiny as a nation. Hogwash. We are being sold out by corporations intent on importing workers for jobs that can't be exported with the taxpayers paying the true costs, financial and human. If we act like sheep and don't stop the inundation across our borders, we will lose our country without a bleat

The Problem Is...
...people don't want to sit quietly and listen/study before a prepared Theologian who is qualified to teach the Bible. Folks these days want to jump up and down, sing silly songs and emote (which has nothing to do w/spirituality). They reject someone who has spent a decade at one of the good Theological Seminaries and instead they opt for some moron who learned to play 3 chords on a guitar and sing a bunch of goofy, emotional songs. The sort of Theology that was taught from pulpits in the past has been rejected and replaced w/a load of emotional slop. As a result Christendom in the U.S. is almost totally in a state of confusion. Christians are supposed to be the Salt of the Earth (preservative). When a nation goes down the blame must rest squarely on the shoulders of its Christian population. DD
http://streetlevel.townhall.com

liberalgoodman
True, the government of the bible was not a democracy, but rather, at least in those times, a monarchy. However if you refer back to Samuel, it would seem that was not the Lord's choice but man's. It would seem that the true biblical model for government would be a theocracy. Not that I expect to see that in anything but some dangerously tainted form before God comes again.

As to the principals, the ones you refer to are but broad strokes of the brush. I was referring to those underpinning them, things such as justice, charity, respect and equality of man under God. Love for God and your fellow man.... I could go on, but they are all set out in the bible, in the Law, the Prophets, Psalms, Proverbs ... as well as in the Christian "New Testament," after all, it was written, with only a couple of exceptions, by Hebrew men, and about a Hebrew man, and so reflects Hebrew beliefs and principles.

JayJay
Ahh..You get upset when someone questions the ignorance of a Liberal. I'm so glad I tee'd you off. Makes for a good laugh today as I see all you Moonbats spew out the Socialist propaganda.

Hisfool
It's important, after reading Hisfool's first post, to make clear what I mean when I say Christians need to keep in mind that God, not politics, is our hope and answer.

There is no reason why Christians should not be active in the political process. Indeed, we should be. But we MUST NOT be deceived that we are going to change America's course by enforcing what we believe in via majority vote and the power of the state.

That sentence perfectly describes what secular lefists seek to do. When they can't get the VOTE to harness the power of the state to their system of beliefs, they make an end run around the people's representatives, and get the judicial branch to do it. They apparently believe they can change the world for what they consider the better by using the power of the state to enforce their beliefs on others. Most conservatives today, even Christians, would leave (for example) homosexuality out of the political process -- it's when those on the Left demand that the state force all of us to behave in conformity with the vision of the Left, that conservatives and Christians see a need to oppose their political efforts.

The Left has recourse to government because it thinks the power of the state can be used for "good": to transform humanity. The Right MUST NOT fall into the same error. I would like to see a Constitutional amendment defining marriage, because that's the only way to prevent the Left from using the power of the state to force us to acknowledge other forms of human connection as "marriage." But I don't deceive myself that defining marriage in the US Constitution will transform the hearts of those who now wish to undermine the institution, and redefine it out of all societal and spiritual utility.

It's not the job of the human-centered, coercion-based state to change people's hearts and minds. The state is a blunt, indiscriminate tool wielded by flawed, short-sighted humans, and it will never be anything else. It has no capacity to enforce "good" on the people. The political stance of the Right should be that we will not let the Left use the state against us -- but that determination is as empty as the Left's own temporal, man-centered ideas, if it's not founded on an expression of Christian love that CANNOT be a project of the state.

It's not enough to oppose the Left in the political realm. It's a deception to think that's the route we ought to focus on, to navigate toward a better future. We have to petition God for the grace to change hearts one by one. If we believe that He wants to, and that He will, then we will put political action in its proper place. If, however, we think that upholding the triumph of the kingdom of heaven in our hearts is dependent on earthly political arrangements -- then we are making the same mistake as the Left.

The Founders observed that the minimal, uniquely ineffective government they crafted for the United States was suited only to a moral, religious, Christian people. But they gave us this minimal government -- instead of using the Founding opportunity to enforce an activist political agenda, as the French revolutionists did, or the Russian or any others -- because they judged government correctly: as a tool that is unsuited for improving man. THIS is what we need to remember about our Founding.

The Left presents its argument with us as their side being opposed to our side misusing the state to govern people's lives, minds, and hearts. But the Left is daily engaged in using the state to govern lives, minds, and hearts, when it insists that communities may not have an opinion different from the Left's on abortion, euthanasia, gay "marriage" or a host of other issues. The Left is happy to have the state ordering people's beliefs around. Their true quarrel is with the agenda, not the use of the state to enforce it.

Our quarrel, on the other hand, should be with the idea of the state as an agent for human transformation of any kind. Humans demonstrably DO need to be transformed: the Christian conservative message must be that there is a much more effective way to do that than involving the state -- a Way of true hope and success -- and that trying to transform humans through the coercive power of the state doesn't work, period, regardless of the agenda.

If Christians...
...actually knew the text and meaning of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States as much as they claim to know and understand the Bible then perhaps(!)....(sigh).

Oh for God's sake, "Bucko"! It's easier for a camel to go through the Eye of the....

Without a heritage....
Without a heritage every generation starts over.

Consider what lessons America's founders were raised on. What lessons are YOUR children being raised on?

What emboldened the Founding Fathers of this Nation, in another fight for freedom from tyranny, to sign their names to the Declaration of Independence just below these words of commitment: "And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor."

Was is secular liberalism or was it a Biblical worldview?

See Did YOU KNOW? and the other sections of http://www.earstohear.net/Heritage/. Then visit the Warnings page at http://www.earstohear.net/Separation/ to learn how these same men warned us against what is taking place today.

Dessu wrote, " How do we choose which Christian values to adopt?

Read carefully the opeining paragraph of America's founding document and you'll learn that the boundaries of how "unalienable Rights" are to be "entitled" are "the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God."




Goshawk
I'm not upset, Pal. It takes someone truly clever, smart, and original to upset me.

Calling liberals socialists - well, sorry, that's hardly any of those things.

Hisfool
Thanks for your thoughtful comments. I am going to disagree respectfully with some of them.

You write: "As to the principals, the ones you refer to are but broad strokes of the brush. I was referring to those underpinning them, things such as justice, charity, respect and equality of man under God."

Justice: I agree. An important Biblical principle is that nobody is above the law. Even Moses and David are punished for their transgressions. The Bible also is big on property rights -- stones marking boundaries between fields should not be moved.

Charity: tough one. Many conservatives feel charity is a personal virtue, not a principle of government. Many liberals feel the government should perform charitable acts using tax money. I can't remember kings of Israel or Judah being praised for helping the poor. Maybe you can?

Equality of man under God: The old Testament says the opposite, that the descendents of Jacob have the right to take land from others. This might be a fundamental difference between Jewish and Christian beliefs.

You say: "the Christian `New Testament,' after all, was written, with only a couple of exceptions, by Hebrew men, and about a Hebrew man, and so reflects Hebrew beliefs and principles." -- Many Jews feel that Jesus repudiated Jewish principles.

Our Greatest Social Threat

JayJay told us a couple hours ago that "Liberals don't hate Christians, or Mormons, or Buddhists, or Muslims."

No; they hate God.

JayJay
Not upset? No..Just enough to read something into what I wrote that is not there. If you read again you may see I did not call Liberals socialist. I referred to those Liberals SUPPORTING Socialism. If you happen to Be one of them... well if the shoe fits!

Hey You
Thanks for taking the thread to the lowest point possible.

Now why did you title your post

Our Greatest Social Threat?

Prayer is the answer!
Prayer is the greatest weapon Christians have but it is the most under-utilized. Christians need to pray for their leaders - that is commanded in the Bible. Pray for President, the military leaders, governors, senators, etc. on a daily basis. Imagine what changes would happen if Christians did this every day.

The creed of the Christian is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. If every Christian put this into practice on a daily basis, it would make a HUGE difference in this country.

It's not about being an American or being a patriot. It's about doing what Jesus said to do in the Bible.

Where do you think hospitals come from? They came from the church. The church set them up hundreds of years ago. The vast majority of hospitals are named after Christian saints.

The Red Cross was started by a Christian man in Europe and was brought over here.

The YMCA stands for Young Mens Christian Association. It was started as a place for young men to gather together in the spirit of Christian fellowship.

Who does most of the charity work in this country? Christians do. When I was in Bay St. Louis in October of 2005, the vast majority of voluteers helping with Katrina victims were from Christian churches. Even the Amish were down there!

It's not about politics. It's about Christians living their faith, practicing their faith and setting an example. People will follow this example and it can change a society forever.


Did anyone see
the program on Scarborough Country last night? They had as a quest an atheist who has a web site and has opened a school. For express purpose of saving Christian children from themselves and the terrible torture their parents inflicted on them., by raising them as Christians. ( his words, not mine,) He stated he felt it was his duty to unteach the horrible things the parents taught.

The results of his brainwashing was shown as they had three kids, on tape that looked like they were early teens. And had their faces partially blanked out. These kids said "There is no God! I hate my parents for lying to me!" And I hate Christians! I hope you all go to he!!."

Nice huh? Can't you just see the tolerance.

liberalgoodman
To answer some of your comments/questions. The bible is filled with teaching about charity. The leaving the corners of the fields uncut, and any handfuls dropped behind was provision for those who did not have. Deuteronomy 10:18, 16:11&14, 24:17-21, the story of Ruth, Job 31, Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah, Jeremiah... even Malachi contian such references. It seems to me that if God mentions it so often and in so many ways it must be important to Him.

Personally I feel that this is an area where government does rather poorly, and has always done poorly. Perhaps the extent of government involvement should be limited to the passage of laws providing very general frameworks whereby participation is encouraged and organizations that provide such services can be held accountable. I don't pretend to have the answer but one has only to look at government programs such as welfare for it t be painfully evident that DC does not have a clue.

I agree that the Land promised to Abraham is Jewish land, and will always be their heritage. I would not support someone who states or acts otherwise. I was referring more to within that framework, that is within the framework of a nation, and from what I have seen Israel has done commendably in that area.

Lastly I was fully aware that many Jews feel that Jesus repudiated Jewish principles. Perhaps in some ways He did, but where this is true was the the laws of man or God that He repudiated ... that is was it Torah or tradition? Not trying to make a point, or evangelize, just tossing out a thought for consideration.

Regardless of what you believe, He was Jewish, with Jewish family, Jewish heritage, in a Jewish land. (OK Rome was in charge, but as of yet they had not interfered too much.) All of the writers in the NT were also Jewish, (Luke being the one exception, he was Greek.) As so it is very clear as you read their writings that they drew heavily upon scripture, the Law, Psalms, the Prophets, etc. Knowing that it behooves me as a Christian believer to study what we know as the OT, and hence to better understand my Jewish brothers. I know that word may rankle some, but both religions believe in and call upon the name of the one true God. So I choose to count Jews as a part of my eternal family for after all for the true believer of either faith there is more we share than separates us.

liberalgoodman quoting Hisfool...


liberalgoodman writes: “You say (quoting Hisfool): ‘the Christian ‘New Testament,’ after all, was written, with only a couple of exceptions, by Hebrew men, and about a Hebrew man, and so reflects Hebrew beliefs and principles’."

The Old Testament, and the New Testament, were BOTH written by the inspiration of GOD. They reflect the principles and the WILL of GOD, not men!



liberalgoodman writes: “-- Many Jews feel that Jesus repudiated Jewish principles. ”

Would it not be a wondrous thing if people would cease using the word "feel" (and the implied appeal to emotion) and return to the proper use of the word "think" (with the attendant appeal to reason) where appropriate?

Jesus fulfilled the will of His Father; nothing more, nothing less. Is His Father not also the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Who will deny it?

Those Jews who disagreed with (and were against) Jesus, by definition, disagreed with (and were against) God. Those Jews who thought "that Jesus repudiated Jewish principles" claimed to believe Moses and the Prophets, did they not?

But Moses and the Prophets wrote about Christ, so in point of fact, those Jews who didn't (and don’t) believe Jesus Christ didn't (and don’t) really believe Moses or the Prophets, do they?

If another conclusion can be substantiated, I would like to know it!


Scott
You wrote:
The Old Testament, and the New Testament, were BOTH written by the inspiration of GOD. They reflect the principles and the WILL of GOD, not men!

AGREED!

JayJay

I take it your left-wing blogs are not filled with "divisive, hate-filled, fear mongering rants by third rate writers?" I can post examples if you would care to give them some consideration. There are no more hate-filled human beings on earth than the lap-sitting Soros liberal puppets dancing on the strings of the communist puppeteer. Now do have some insight as to why so many Christians don't vote or are you busy recruiting voters by being divisive?

Just a few points
We had state religions until 1833. Catholics were prohibited until 1877 from holding some political offices in the Protestant State of New Hampsire because the Bill of Rights, including the 1st Amendment were not applied to States until 1925. They were only a limit on federal power.

State Constitutions which all have God in the, all 50, were the protection of rights from State Powers.

The laws of the Old Testament were condensed by Jesus to "'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND." which means you follow God's will for you, not God's will for somebody esle. Since God's will is different for each person, carpentery, teacher, lawyer, etc. there are different things we should do but, we are to all be moral and that is the morality God teaches us to have through a relationship with God.

We see what much of that is through the teachings of Jesus such as what he said in Mark 7
quote:
That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, [5] wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
-------------------------------

So we know what some basic "thou shalt nots" are, but there is more. Sin is any violation of God's will for you. If you are called to be that teacher by God, and you decide to be a lawyer, that is a sin since "sin" when broken down to its simplest definition is any violation of God's will.

It is like when Jonah refused to go where God told him to go. That was a sin and Jonah was punished. It is the same for us. If we love God with all our soul, we will go where he tells us and do what he tells us and not do what he doesn't want us to do.

Many people don't know this nation was a republic of sovereign states except for the limited power they gave the Federal Government. That meant the federal government had no right to stop states from having laws on morality or social needs that the majority in each state felt was best for their society.

Not that it would always be fair, but it would be best. As Washington said in the 1794 address.
quote:
On the one hand the judicary was pronounced to be stripped of its capacity to enforce the laws; crimes which reached the very existence of social order were perpetrated without control; the friends of Government were insulted, abused, and overawed into silence or an apparent acquience; and to yield to the treasonable fury of so small a portion of the United States would be violate the fundemental principle of our Constitution, which enjoins that the will of the majority shall prevail.
http://freedom.up.net/~willie/TBY/GW/6SUA.HTML
==========================
But, it was the majority in each state that made the laws that regulated morality and social order. The Federal government had no authority over those issues. They were issues left to the States by the U.S. Constitution. Not until 1925 was that concept changed and done so by a Court that was beginning to promote socialism the evil that has destroyed this nation so much in the last 50 years economically.

Finally, since secular humanism is a relgion, then the Federal government when it forces a society in any state to comply with that state religion of secular humanism is in fact, establishing a national religion. The Supreme Court has ruled it a "religion" so, we are going to have a religious nation. It is just a question of which religion it will be. A religion that is made up of over 2,000 denominations and faiths that believe in the God in all 50 state Constitutions, or the 300 million believes that comprise secular humanism where each person does his own thing regardless of whether it is good for a society or not.


To liberalgoodman
There is a reason that government has not been successful in its attempts to be charitable. When one attempts to assign a human characteristic to an inanimate object or a thing such as civil government one is guilty of anthropomorphism. Government can not be charitable or compassionate. These are human characteristics. This is one of the myriads of reasons that socialism will never work.

How long will this country exist?

After yesterdays anti-war demonstrations I find it strange that there were no signs or chants saying "To hell with the Iraqi's", "Let those people fend for themselves", and other "Christian" like sayings! Do we not have some obligation to our fellow humans? I hear about the oor souls in Darfur and how we should "help" them - by sending in troops? How two faced can these people get.

I've posted the below before but it really fits here too. This country started some 200 years ago - now how long wll it last? Pick a number for yourselves, I'll suggest 6.8.

The United States was set up as a Republic (Land Owners vote) –
If it is a Democracy (Mob Rules). I think you will get the point!
-------------
How Long Do We Have?
About the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution, in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years prior:
"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."

"The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:
1. From bondage to spiritual faith;
2. From spiritual faith to great courage,
3. From courage to liberty,
4. From liberty to abundance,
5. From abundance to complacency,
6. From complacency to apathy;
7. From apathy to dependence,
8. From dependence back into bondage.
Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law, St. Paul, MN.

Sleeper Cells in America
please check out my answer to Frank Pastore's article today...

Sleeper Cells in America
http://thechristianheartbeat.townhall.com/Default.aspx

Why the Bible Supports Freemarket Cap
Those of you who are interested in a treatise on why the Bible supports free market capitalism can follow the link below to read or download a 17 volume series on the subject.

http://www.garynorth.com/public/department57.cfm

love God and others, that is enough
Many comments here are showing very little thought.

I'm an evangelical Christian and served for many years in Pakistan as a missionary with my wife and three daughters. I would love to see many Muslims find and follow the Lord Jesus--in Pakistan and elsewhere. I would love people in any land do this. My best friend is a Muslim convert, he struggles tremendously to live out his faith in a Shia family who would love to see him dead. He simply follows the Lord. He told General Zia, the army dictator of Pakistan, to his face that he read his Bible every day. The general replied that he should also visit the mosque daily.

Reading here, one would conclude many American Christians assume that the United States of America is the highest form of government and society that the world has ever known. Come on! How absurd! We have a great country. I would gladly defend the people who live in the USA in a war. My own daughter is a graduate of the Air Force Academy and serving as an officer (and wife of an officer, too). I am thrilled to see her serve patriotically and loyally.

But America is not heaven, nor is it God's country. Because it is a representative form of democracy we must carefully chose leaders. But our commonwealth is in heaven and from it we await a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. (See Philippians)

Our allegiance to the Lord should make our loyalty to any other thing (even a country) look silly and puny. Love God, love your neighbor. Don't worry about your neighbors politics, worry about his soul. The things of God (He, His Word, His Son) and the souls of men are THE ONLY ETERNAL THINGS! Give Caesar what belongs to him, pay taxes and obey laws and in a democracy get involved, but do the MAIN THING give your love with all your strength to God.

Why the Bible Supports Freemarket Cap???
Sounds informative. I think I’ll check it out as soon as I finish the 12-part treatise on Mac versus PC, a biblical perspective.

A Low Point?

utahnotmormon writes today at 3:06 PM:

Hey You

Thanks for taking the thread to the lowest point possible.

Now why did you title your post

Our Greatest Social Threat ?
________________________________________________


I responded to Jay Jay's assertion that "Liberals don't hate Christians, or Mormons, or Buddhists, or Muslims." with the observation that "No, they hate God".

The well-being of the United States, the most benign super-power the world has ever known, is based largely upon the recognitian that there is a God and that HE has favored us hadsomely. The proposition that there is no God is a threat to our fundamental social compact.

A dismaying portion of those who don't know God are the liberals who have gained considerable power to interfere in the smooth conduct of our daily social communion.

What about this perspective constitutes a "low point"?

H.Y.




Votaire and Paris Hilton
Many refuse to see the link between the political theories which bloomed out of the Enlightenment era and the Church era that preceded it. Like Paris Hilton, some enlightenment thinkers cared little for the provencence of their inheritance, choosing to revel in the riches while ignoring the generations of toil and sacrifice that created the wealth.

Look at Voltaire, Paine, and Jefferson. They were often very hostile to Orthodox modes of Christianity, despite the fact that their most cherished ideals grew up from that more ancient soil. These ideals, in turn, became the soil in which our delicate Republic grew and eventually flourished.

We were, from the beginning, a people of deep religious convictions, even if those convictions were not necessarily expressed in devoted church attendance or public displays.

But the people of this nation would have always (with very few exceptions) called themselves Christians, accepting the godly principles of the New Testament without much hand-wringing reflection. Even if they were not schooled in the exact history, common sense showed them the link between Christ and the Colonies.

Educrats and media have so twisted and tortured the history that mushy heads have accepted a version of the past that leads to a godless future. What kind of future will it be? Just look at bleeding, dying Europe to see our own grim future, should the Lord tarry in His return.

Alligence to God First
So alligence to God first is yellow bellied.
Now I've heard it all.

God told us to love our enemies, didn't he?

Look all I'm saying is Hilter look great to the Germans, and I'm sure Nixon looked good in his heyday. End result, men are falliable.


I'll choose God before country anyday of the week.
If I offended you, it was not my intention, but so be it.
I won't apologize for being a rebel from men's tyranny.
Give me liberty or give me death.

Maybe They Are Just Following Jesus
Your New Testament might be different than mine. In mine Christ says: "Blessed are the Peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of God." In my Bible Christ says, "If one strikes you on the cheek, turn the other cheek to him also." In my Bible Christ says, "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." Perhaps all those Christians who lack patriotism are the ones who are really following Christ.

Remember Christ came not to chastise the sinners, but the "righteous". I have often thought if Christ came today with the same messages, it would again be the "righteous" who would have him killed.

I am very disconcerted today to see how many Christians no longer believe in the teachings of Christ.

Is this a joke?
>A dismaying portion of those who don't know God are the liberals who have gained considerable power to interfere in the smooth conduct of our daily social communion.<

So, liberals hate God? Because some liberals, and I, a secular conservative, don't subscribe to your dogma, your simpleton mind responds with
"Liberals hate God?"

I'm thinking your post is satire. No one could be so incredibly dim-witted.


Hey You
Jesus said that it is harder for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven that a camel to go through the eye of a needle.

Jesus said to feed the hungry and care for the poor. "As you do to the least of these so you do to me."

That reminds me of a time I was entering a restaurant. I saw a man on the street, standing outside the restaurant smoking a cigarette. We've all seen that. A homeless black man came along pushing a cart filled with bags and said, "Hey man, could you spare a cigarette?" He said, "Sure take two." The guys with him said, "Why did you do that?" He said, "That might have been Jesus." "As you do to the least of these so you do to me."

Remember it was the righteous that had Jesus killed. Beware for he may say, "Get behind me, I never knew you."

I'm not sure that conservatives have actually read the words of Jesus.

desu worried about slavery and stoning

>… then you have stuff in Leviticus about slaves and stoning people to death.<

desu, just why do you object to stoning? God found certain activities to be abominable to Him and gave instructions to stone those partakers of said activities. Are you one of the partakers and fear that you may be found out? If you believe there is not God, then you can just ignore this teaching anyway, right? So, what’s your point? Let us who believe in God take these teachings to heart. In the mean time, do not legislate that others are to follow you.

FYI, Jesus, when confronted with a woman guilty of adultery (caught even in the act!), said to the Pharisees, “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” If you accept that Jesus is God incarnate then only He would be sinless and able to cast any and all stones. His teaching here is that we mere mortals can tell others of their sin but we cannot cast any stones since we too are sinners.

We each are responsible and accountable for our own sins.

Donaldd regarding the Religious Right

Donaldd says, “It is the So Called Religious Right who would destroy our Constitution and rule much like the Mullahs in Islamic Countries.”

How is that you say the Religious Right would destroy our Constitution and rule much like the Mullahs in Islamic Countries? What ever is your reasoning?

The Republicans have not divided this country. There is a divide to be sure but it is caused by two totally different world views. It is my point of view that your mother should not have had the right to abort you. You say that she should have had that right. Fortunately for you she carried you to term. I say that government is not the vehicle for social change. You say it is the only vehicle for social change and the change you advocate must be enforced at the point of a gun. Like I said, there two different world views that cause this divide.

You want this country to be united. I am a Republican and a Conservative. What would it take for you and me to be united instead of divided?

JayJay doesn’t hate Christians

JayJay says, “Liberals don't hate Christians, or Mormons, or Buddhists, or Muslims. They just don't like the ones who are mean-spirited, sanctimonious, or power obsessed.”

I don’t think Nancy Pelosi is necessarily religious (she may have no religion at all), but I do find her mean-spirited, sanctimonious, or power obsessed. Do you dislike Nancy Pelosi as much as you dislike Conservatives because of her mean-spirit, sanctimony, and obsession for power?

Regarding Frank Pastore's column

I honestly believe that the majority of true patriots are Christians. They understand the implications of the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights.

Christians follow Christ not the O.T.
Notice how many Christians today never quote Christ. Why? Because they can't find a message of hate. They go to the Old Testament or to Paul. Many should call themselves Paulians not Christians. Christians believe in the teachings of Christ.

As far as the O.T. goes - In Numbers it says that the first born of a cow, goat etc. shall not be eaten but its blood shall be sprinkled on an alter. Or this, this is the law if a man dies in a house everyone in that house is unclean. They shall take ashes of the burnt sin offering and water and sprinkle it on the house. Now how many Christian do that? Or Deuteronomy which says if a man rapes a girl in a city they shall both be stoned but if a man rapes a girl in the country only the man will be stoned.

No our so-called Christians simply glean the Old Testament for messages of hate.

Jesus said, "A new commandment I give unto you."

When will they start believing in Jesus?

Got to Go
Catch ya later.

WINNING BACK AMERICA FOR CHRIST JESUS
YOU SHOULD TOUCH BASES WITH DR JAMES KENNEDY, CORAL RIDGE MIN., FLORIDA.
ENJOYED YOUR COLUMN.
THE PROBLEM IS THAT NOTHING RESEMBLING YOUR COLUMN IS SEEN/HEARD ON NAT'L TV.

Regarding Christians and Patriots
I believe Frank is missing a small slice of the larger problem concerning Christians, and Patriots. Briefly then, the Christian church has been so watered-down, luke-warmed and politically corrected that it is now relatively spineless. As an example, for a church to say that it is not wrong, but a woman's choice, to murder un-birthed children is to climb up on a fence and hope you fall on the right side. The devil is laughing at you on the fence. Many other examples can be found which are clearly sinful as taught in the Bible, but declared "personal choice" by preachers and pastors who are afraid to offend the people in their congregations. They should instead be afraid of God's wrath, as those who teach must answer for this when they stand before God. The whole watered-down, let's tolerate everyone mantra has been spread by the media, as well as preachers for a couple decades, and this has affected patriotism as well. Americans are told we need to be global, not parochial, we can't afford to be patriotic, conservative, or Christian in the world of today. I believe it is going to kill our Republic and turn America into a Socialist Nation of the Elite in Government and of the Enabled on the Dole. Look at the Democrat agenda and it is obviously progressing even as we debate, only we can stop it.

BIRDMAN
It's the communist/nazi/pervert left (aka liberals/democrats) that are destroying our constitution. True Christians are indeed patriots - just that they come under fire from the various socialist fascist sects (communists/nazis/perverts aka liberals/democrats) with threats of lawsuits to deny them their first amendment rights whereas those same socialist fascists spread their hate for our constutional republic. As Nikita once stated, "the communists would destroy the USA from within". They,with the assistance from their Nazi brothers & sisters are succeeding.


Kat Chalater
Big difference here is the "Christian Right" thinks charity should be a personal thing. You seem to believe the goverment should provide for the "poor", by holding a gun to my head and taking my money for the purpose.

And of course you have mention the usual crap about OT and why don't we Christians follow it to the letter. If you studied a little more, you'd know why. Do not expect us to follow your religion, be it Liberalism, Humanism or Atheism.

The Bible should judge American politics
It is folly to make the circumstances of the American revolution interpret the Bible. Rather, at all times, biblical teachings should be the final arbiter of what is right or wrong -- even if it contradicts some tenets beloved to American conservatives. It is legitimate for Christians to question, rightly or wrongly, whether the War of Independence was biblical justified, e.g. A speech against "Christian" American Patriotismhttp://www.wiebefamily.org/revolt.htm

Conservatism is more biblical
Having said the above, I believe that most tenets of conservatism are derivable from the Bible, such as sanctity of unborn life, capital punisment for capital crimes, free market, personal charity rather than statist welfarism, the importance of the family and marriage ...

Pappy Michael
Pappy Michael writes: Sunday, January, 28, 2007 9:27 PM
Kat Chalater
Big difference here is the "Christian Right" thinks charity should be a personal thing. You seem to believe the goverment should provide for the "poor", by holding a gun to my head and taking my money for the purpose.
******************************

Absolutely!

And the thing I most complain about is that the Leftists get their causes to be the recipiants of a great deal of our tax money, and most of those causes are ones that I oppose.

When I am allowed to give those dollars to whomever I want, I give them to the causes I believe in.

There are certain things that government should pay for, but the meaning of "the general welfare" has been stretched too far to include too many things that are antangonistic to our once glorious society.

Hrant Dink was assassinated Jan. 19,2007
Hrant Dink was assassinated outside his office in Istanbul. He was a journalist who had been convicted under Turkish law for "insulting Turkishness". What Dink wrote about that inflamed the Turkish Nationalists was the "Armenian Genocide". Dinks goal was to get Turks and Armenians talking about the Genocide in an attempt to heal the old wounds and bring peace to the Turkish and Armenian peoples.
I believe Dink was mistaken. To the extent that Turks are Muslims they simply do not want peace with Christians.

I believe that when anyone talks about the "Armenian" Genocide they are blinding themselves to what the Turks actually did and why. In fact the slaughter was clearly a Christian Genocide. The Muslims did not kill Armenians who had converted to become Muslims. The Muslims slaughtered 1.5 million Armenian Christians, .5 million Greek Christians and 250,000 Assyrian Chaldean Christians. Most of the killing took place around 1915 to 1920. The Turkish Muslim government stole all the lands of these people and gave the land to Muslims. The Turkish Muslim government denies that the Genocide happened. And the present Muslim government will prosecute anyone who attempts to bring the Christian Genocide to the public's attention.

Turkey is considered a moderate, secular, Muslim government. Around 1916 my wife's grandmother was forced by Turkish Muslims to dig a grave for her infant twin sons. They were killed in front of her and she then buried them. In this day and age there is more than one reason for Christians to be Patriots. Does it occur to anyone that we are presently being invaded by Muslims? A few actually blew up part of the Pentagon. The Japanese, Germans, Russians and Chinese never got close to the Pentagon. Does it matter that people are presently being sworn in as citizens who hate this Nation, who hate Christians, and who are willing and waiting for the opportunity to help bring us down?

Without a significant increase in Christian political awareness we are doomed.

Kat Chalater
Kat Chalater writes: Sunday, January, 28, 2007 7:43 PM
Christians follow Christ not the O.T.
Notice how many Christians today never quote Christ. Why? Because they can't find a message of hate. They go to the Old Testament or to Paul. Many should call themselves Paulians not Christians. Christians believe in the teachings of Christ.
*****************************

You have never read the Words of Jesus completely if you believe the drivel you just spouted.

How about this for Christian Love:

"Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
"Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, 'Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know where you are from.'
"Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets';
and He will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.'

"In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out." Luke 13:22-28 (NASB ©1995)
...................................

Or how about THESE Words of Christ?:

"But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,'... the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers." Luke 12:45-46 (NASB ©1995)
....................................

Or how about this for the Love of Christ?:

"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED." Mark 9:43-44(NASB ©1995)
***************************************

I spent alot of time discussing this on Kevin McCullough's column today. If you go there, you will find more quotes from Jesus that are not the kind the wobbly weenies like to hear.

Kat, I suggest you actually go back and READ the New Testament, just the Words of Christ, before you go around repeating half-truths you have heard.

Then you will sound like you have two brain cells that you can rub together.

our once glorious society.
When exactly was that? I think it's pretty glorious right now, but then I'm kind of insulated here in the reddest of states.

We currently have a black woman as Secretary of State, who succeded a black man. The Attorney General is Hispanic. The two front runners for the Democratic presidential nomination are a woman and a black man.

Regardless of one's personal opinion of these people and their performance, when I was kid there was still an active KKK, so we've come a long way including all Americans in the political process. While I decry the welfare system, which has deteriorated this country's work ethic, it's not uncommon now to see successful black executives and women CEOs.

It's still a glorious society.

treadmilljoe
Was it intenitional that you excluded the Kurds from your recount of Turkish genocide and oppression?

Just three days a ago a Kurdish mayor of a SE Turkish city was imprisoned for attending a funeral.

>1/26/2007 Reuters
DIYARBAKIR, Turkey - The mayor of a province in southeastern Turkey was sentenced on Thursday to two years in jail for supporting the banned PKK in a speech at the funeral of one of its guerrillas, court officials said.

The PKK, or Kurdistan Workers Party, has been blamed for 30,000 deaths since 1984, when it began its armed struggle for a Kurdish homeland.

The court ruled that Mardin Mayor Cemal Veske had no reason to attend the funeral as he was not a relative or friend of the guerrilla -- killed by Turkish forces in 2005 -- and so his presence amounted to propaganda.

He also said in a speech that the only people who were addressing the Kurdish problem were the PKK, the officials said.

Several other mayors from the region have been tried for supporting the PKK, which broke off a five-year ceasefire in 2004.<

The Turkish government are the terrorists, not the PKK.




Moderates have become mutes
The degradation of America has resulted from being run by extremists too much. Most moderates just 'mind their own business' and deal with whatever comes their way. Most of the people who express their opinions are so extreme that they have become less than logical. This has gone on so long that their extreme (and illogical)views have become the norm little by little. Thus the moral fiber that made this country great is unraveling and,consequently, our country is becoming weaker and weaker. Most level headed Americans are not aware because it is happening so slowly and there is a lot of propaganda keeping us from finding out or convincing us it is ok.

utahnotmormon, not ultrahotmormon
utahnotmormon writes: Sunday, January, 28, 2007 11:09 PM
our once glorious society.
When exactly was that? I think it's pretty glorious right now, but then I'm kind of insulated here in the reddest of states.
****************************************

Well, if you are bored, come out here to the Left Coast and visit.

You will have a good glimpse of what unbridled liberalism has wrought.

Perhaps when Mitt Romney, the UltraHotMormon gets elected...

*sigh*

Kat Chalater / A sincere reply...


Kat Chalater writes: “Christians follow Christ not the O.T.”

This is quite true, but that does not diminish the importance of the Old Testament, does it? “For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope” (Romans 15:4)? Is the Old Testament not also the Word of God? Is it not also inspired? Did Christ and the apostles not reason from the Scriptures?



Kat Chalater writes: “Notice how many Christians today never quote Christ. Why? Because they can't find a message of hate.”

I’m not quite sure what you’re referring to here. I do notice a tendency among some to quote only the happy feel-good words of Christ, to the exclusion of His warnings and admonitions, but to say that Christians do not quote Christ because they are in search of a message of hate is really an unfortunate thing to say (or believe).



Kat Chalater writes: “They go to the Old Testament or to Paul. Many should call themselves Paulians not Christians. Christians believe in the teachings of Christ.”

Indeed, Christians do believe the teachings of Christ. From whence, do you suppose, did Paul get his instruction? Is all scripture given by God, or is Paul a liar? Did Jesus Christ Himself, personally, choose Saul of Tarsus to become an Apostle?

If Paul did not teach consistent with Christ, then are you suggesting that Christ made a mistake in choosing Paul? Or perhaps that Christ made a mistake in inspiring Paul? Or maybe that He made a mistake in allowing Paul’s words to be written and included with the other inspired writings in the first place?

If you are suggesting such, where, specifically, are you suggesting our Lord erred?

Before you answer, why don’t we compare what Paul taught to what Christ taught, so that we might see better for ourselves whether Paul taught as his Master would have him teach?


1. Alive in Christ
Jesus Christ - "For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will." (John 5:21).

Paul - "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15:22).


2. Worldly cares
Jesus Christ - "Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?" (Matthew 6:25).

Paul - "Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God." (Philippians 4:6).


3. Atonement
Jesus Christ - "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep." (John 10:11)

Paul - "And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour." (Ephesians 5:2).


4. Deity of Jesus
Jesus Christ - "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58). Compare to Exodus 3:14 - "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

Paul - "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." (Colossians 2:9). See also Philippians 2:5-7 “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: [6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: [7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:”.


5. Forgiveness
Jesus Christ - "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:" (Matt. 6:14).

Paul - "And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you." (Ephesians 4:32).


6. Jesus is the only way
Jesus Christ - "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6).

Paul - "For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" (1 Timothy 2:5).


7. Justification by faith (but NOT “faith only”, not without the remission of sins...)
Jesus Christ - "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:24). See also John 3:18 “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

Paul - "Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Romans 5:1).


8. The Law
Jesus Christ - "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17).

Paul - "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." (Romans 3:31). "And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect." (Galatians 3:17).


9. Living the Law
Jesus Christ - "He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, [19] Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. " (Matthew 19:18-19).

Paul - "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. [9] For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [10] Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law." (Romans 13:8-10)


10. Resurrection
Jesus Christ - "And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men: [23] And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry." (Matthew 17:22-23).

Paul - "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; [4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).


11. Rewards and Punishment
Jesus Christ - "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." (Matthew 16:27).

Paul - "Who will render to every man according to his deeds:" (Romans 2:6).


12. Sinfulness of man
Jesus Christ - "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: [20] These are [the things] which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man." (Matthew 15:19-20).

Paul - "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. [12] They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.” (Romans 3:11-12).


13. Man-made Traditions
Jesus Christ - "But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?" (Matthew 15:3).

Paul - "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." (Colossians 2:8).


14. New Testament
Jesus Christ - “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; [28] For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28)

Paul - “After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me.” (1 Corinthians 11:25)

There are many more, of course… but really, “Paulians”? Clearly, Paul was a CHRISTIAN, chosen, instructed by and inspired of God :-)



Kat Chalater writes: “As far as the O.T. goes - In Numbers it says that the first born of a cow, goat etc. shall not be eaten but its blood shall be sprinkled on an alter. Or this, this is the law if a man dies in a house everyone in that house is unclean. They shall take ashes of the burnt sin offering and water and sprinkle it on the house. Now how many Christian do that?”

Well… none. Why would they? Christians do not live under the Old Law. Do you?

(Galatians 3:24-27) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. [26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


(Colossians 2:12-14) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. [13] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; [14] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


(Jeremiah 31:31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:


(Hebrews 8:8) For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:


(Hebrews 8:13) In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.


(Hebrews 9:15-18) And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. [16] For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. [17] For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. [18] Whereupon neither the first [testament] was dedicated without blood.



Kat Chalater writes: “When will they start believing in Jesus?”

Do we honor the Father (or the Son) if we disregard large portions of His inspired Word?

“Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. [18] As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. [19] And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. [20] Neither pray I for these alone, BUT FOR THEM ALSO WHICH SHALL BELIEVE ON ME THROUGH THEIR WORD; [21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me”. (John 17:17-21)

Have you not expressed great disrespect toward Paul in your comments? But Paul spoke and wrote by inspiration; inspiration of God.

So when you ask “When will they start believing in Jesus”, I must, in turn, also ask: When will you?

When will you take Him at His Word? Not just the part(s) you like, but ALL of it?

I hope you will continue your study of God’s Word, as I will, and that we might both come to a better understanding of His Word and His Will. If we will make His inspired Word our complete and only guide, we can achieve the unity Christ prayed for (see above, John 17:17-21) and the unity Paul prayed for, which is, as always, in complete harmony with the Lord:

“Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.” (1 Corinthians 1:10)

Scott- wow!

I must say I am impressed!

Kath
That's all well and fine; however, what do you do when you have public servants and others in power that are NOT Christian and are working to subvert our country? For me, I pray that they will see the evil in their ways.

I also pray for God to help we Americans to turn from our apathetic ways and get these crooks and traitors out of office and return our country to a Constitutional Republic.

A bit short...
liberalgoodman writes: Sunday, January, 28, 2007 1:07 PM

"American values not Christian
The main principles of American government -- democracy, guarantees of rights -- are not Christian in origin. They appear nowhere in the Bible."

First, American government is a republic, not a democracy. Second, you might read the D-of-I about where our rights come from.

"Being in the Judeo side of Judeo-Christian, I don't know much about the new Testament,"

Third, perhaps you might consider learning about it before you make pronouncements.

"...but there is lots of discussion of good and bad government in the books of Kings. Josiah was a good king because he suppressed other religions being in his kingdom and raised taxes."

Fourth, Josiah was commended because he "did right in the sight of the Lord" and reinstituted the Law of Moses like no other king. Fifth, the tax claim is unsupportable.

You come up a bit short on the O.T., too, but that can only make your future extemporizing more challenging.

Scott
Nicely put.

Blindness ?
utahnotmormon writes: Sunday, January, 28, 2007 7:19 PM
Is this a joke?
.....
.....
.....
I'm thinking your post is satire. No one could be so incredibly dim-witted.
-------------------------------------------------

There are non so blind as those who will not see.

Regards,

H.Y.

Scott
You made my point very well. You see you went to the O.T. when it fit your point of view. But when I pointed out passages in the Old Testament you claimed they did not apply. Then you say all parts of the Bible apply except I guess where you say they do not apply.

Again I say, go to your Gospels and read the teachings of Christ. You will be surprised. Just follow the teachings of Christ, not Jeremiah or Paul, they are not Christ. If you are a Christian you follow the teachings of Christ.

Christians not Patriots
The "Greatest Generation" is on the verge of passing away. Their children and grandchildren have suckled at and been nurtured by the 'Nanny State' for so long Patriotism is a forgotten virtue. It has been banished from the public school curriculum by the NEA thought control minders, it has been excoriated by the uber-left faculties of the colleges and universities they have attended, and lastly, the MSM has cast Patriotism onto the dung heap of societal values.
This is the age of the "ease and comfort generation" and, well, patriotism could just get you killed.
Just a reminder from times past
"In War; Resolution:
In Defeat; Defiance:
In Victory; Magnanimity:
In Peace; Good Will:" Winston Churchill
Mr. Churchill also added that any nation or people that was unwilling or unable to abide by the above wouldn't have to worry about their freedom either, because they wouldn't have it for long.
Chuckie Schumer mentioned that 70% of Americans don't support the war on Islamofascism. It's common knowledge that without Winston Churchill, the British People would have quickly followed their French cousins in hanging their best white bed linens out their streetside windows, diving under their mattresses, and wetting and filling the Adult Huggies they were wearing.
The Democrats did not come posing as Winston Churchills, they came openly bragging and boastful as Neville Chamberlain, Quisling, and Petain.

tinkerbelch, you rock
Yes, of course this article rocks...divided powers, priesthood for the believer, humans in the image of God, limited government etc. It is a homerun.

Skimming the comments is the best I could do as there is so much lame brain syndrone out there and then I ran into, of all names 'tinkerbelch' and I must say, what a delightful, informed, and informing response. Wonderful addendum and tribute to the "Greatest Generation". Thanks!

DJYahtzee
"It's as if man were trying to foist off his own works as equals of God's works."

I appreciated reading your comments. I don't see the constitution or declaration of independence problematic because they are "equals" of God's work, but inspirations of God's work. As a Christian, do you believe that God inspires us to accomplish His great work? I certainly do. As a Mormon, we see our founding fathers as inspired men of God.

"IF" they were indeed inspired by God to create our constitution and declare independence, then their creation was like Peter's, Paul's or John's inspired writings about Christ and their wisdom was given to them from a "higher" source. If you don't believe in divine inspiration, then one could conclude that the constitution are just the ideas of man.

If the constitution and dec. of ind. WERE inspired, then why are they inferior to any other Chrisitian inspirations? That's how I see it.

Donaldd
"Republicans hate America"?

"It is the So Called Religious Right who would destroy our Constitution and rule much like the Mullahs in Islamic Countries."

You obviously have an ax to grind. Do you really think that Republicans have some master plan (right wing conspiracy) and that the religious right plans to rule our country like Sharia law? Your comments go right in line with pyramids on Mars. You have completely discarded the very fact that our Founding Forefathers were extremely intelligent Christians who never intended for our government to forget/discard religion or the importance thereof. Are you suggesting to all here that Washington, Madison, Jefferson and likes were all religious rights who created the Consitution only to have it destroyed?

Your comments are really not even worth debating...they are too far out of the ballpark of reality.

CaballeroKid
Most of ignore the drone.

He still thinks that unions are the greatest thing since sliced rye bread!

TOTALLY ignoring the fact that they are killers of industry. (Steel, Auto, Airlines, etc)

dyerje
Loved your intellectual comments! May I quote you in the future? You brought up some absolutely intruiging points and I hope the Liberal Left will take the time to read your words.

CaballeroKid
Luckily, yours was the last post when I checked this column to see how the commentary was progressing. Otherwise I might not have seen it!

I appreciate your kind comments, and hope you will indeed quote me, if you see a reason to. God bless.

The real Jesus?
at Chalater writes:
Remember Christ came not to chastise the sinners, but the "righteous".
============================
He chastised both. Remember, “all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.”

Also, Jesus said this and he didn’t leave out poor, rich, king, middle-class, businessman, worker, woman, man, etc.
Quote:
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, [5] wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
Mark 7
==============================
Quote:
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Luke 13
==============================

Yes, blessed are the peacemakers but, remember that Jesus doesn’t rule out war to make peace. As we know, Jesus intends on using war himself when he returns.
Quote:
and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND Lord OF LordS. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Rev. 19
===========================

Jesus reminded the woman she should “go and sin no more” and that was the message for all sexual activity outside of marriage between a man and a woman. “Go and sin no more.” That means all sex outside of marriage must end. That means you stop “hating the person” but “hate the sin.” You are to speak out against the behavior but not the person.

When I was in police work, I arrested people for breaking the law but I didn’t hate them. I would speak out against sin but not the person. I have spoken out against my own sins. I was a rebellious youth and did many things that weren’t pleasing to God and were sinful. I don’t excuse those sins, I don’t hide the fact I sinned and still sin but I also “repent” of a sin when I commit it and stop doing it. No, not always, I do slip like all people but, when I do, I feel bad because I know I have hurt my relationship with God and do all I can to stop that behavior.

If you have actually accepted the “Sacrifice” which was a “sin Sacrifice” required by the Old Testament for sin, you realized that you have to stop the sins that required that Sacrifice.

When Jesus said
Quote:

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
=================================
Notice that he said the law had to be fulfilled. What law? The law of righteousness and that any sin kept you from being righteous and to become righteous again, you had to go to the temple and give a “sin sacrifice.” Jesus fulfilled that part of the Law. He was the sin Sacrifice” and now all that is required is that you “repent” of the sins and accept Jesus as the Sacrifice made for your sin. But, you have to stop doing the sin or it isn’t a sincere “repentance.”

Jesus didn’t forgive any sin that a person continues to do willingly and knowingly in violation of God’s will for them. It was Jesus that said they will not inherit the Kingdom of God. And just as Jesus reveals, sometimes a society, in order to have peace, must use war to defend itself and preserve its ability to do God’s will as a society.

Christian Quandary

.....A Christian goes to the polls...

.....Candidate "A" promises to defend a woman's right to choose to abort her child ...

.....Candidate "B" promises to push for the death penalty for all sex offenders ...

.....Which candidate does the Christian vote for? .....COLOSSUS

I AM LIBERAL BECAUSE I AM A CHRISTIAN
because the biased conservative media does not want to admit that many of the positions taken by them are immoral, the try to paint liberalism as anti-christian which is not true.

i am liberal
i believe in the soul
i believe in the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost
i believe in faith and the power of prayer
i believe oswald acted alone
i believe in the sweet sound of a basketball swishing through a net.
i believe conservatives stress old testatment values and ignore the new testatment.

Thanks For the Warning
Whenever someone tells me that they are a Christian I always thank them for the warning

baseballdoc
Candidate B if he is opposed to abortion except in the case of forcible rape and then he should also be for the death sentence on the perp for causing the death of an innocent child. A society that will not protect it's most innocent has failed.

the death sentence is anti-christian
in my opinion.
you cannot be against abortion and for the death penalty especially since dna testing has found 5-8% of those on death row have turned out to be innocent.

sardine101
Thanks for the thanks for the warning. Whenever a person of another religion thanks me for warning them that I am Christian I thank them for warning me they are not. I also always stand facing them. Apprehensive I guess.

religiouslib
Where did those stats come from? You think all should be spared the death penalty (even those for sures) because a few may be innocent. I guess since it is for sure that all unborn babies are innocent and every mother and father is guilty of the creation and death of said innocent you would be for putting the parents to death and keeping the baby.

Beyond Me
I have no clue as to the reasoning of people who justify killing the most perfect of all things and whine when the most imperfect of all things is put to death. If you are against both I can see your point but don't try to justify the one by comparing the two.

alter idem
the stats are from various sources. if you google the death penalty you will find some of them.

in illinois the govenor actually stopped all executions until more dna was tested. if memory serves something like 11% were found innocent there.

i am against abortion and the death penalty, which seems more consistent to me than most conservatives who support the death penalty but rant and rave about abortion.

religiouslib writes: Monday, January
religiouslib writes:

i believe conservatives stress old testatment values and ignore the new testatment.
==========================
Actually they don't. It is because Jesus stressed the Old Testament values, not the religious leader's valures of the New Testament times, Christians uphold.

Jesus, remember was the "sin Sacrifice" required by the Old Testment. Jesus was the one who said sinners continuing willingly and knowingly in their sins wouldn't be allowed into heaven. Jesus was the one who said, "Go and sin no more." Jesus was the one who is going to come back with an army and slay millions.

Yes, Christains do put a lot of stock in Old Testament values because they were what this nation was founded on and what Jesus stressed as important.

When facing death, He said, "Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done."

No immorality is tolerated by Jesus. He will forgive a person who repents and stops the sin though. That is also an "Old Testament" value. When you went to the Temple and made a "sin sacrifice," you were also to stop the sinful behavior. That is all that Christians are striving for. Stop the sinful behavior. Liberals want to use Jesus to excuse immoral behavior. So do many Conservatives. So do some people claiming to be Christians.

Quote:
Matthew 24:5

For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
========================

Yes, many will say they are "follwers of Christ" or "come in His name," and deceive many. That is why you have to read the whole Bible to see what Jesus really said, meant, and his purpose for being on earth as a "sin Sacrifice." When he returns he will come as a "warrior" and slay millions of people who still are unwilling to repent and end sinful behavior.

old man
wait a minute

so we are to follow the old testatment?

the old testament that says eye for an eye?

the old testament that says if you disobey your parents you are to be stoned to death.


i could go on.

there is a new testament for a reason. i agree with your premise about sin but Jesus came to forge a new convenant.


Scott - way to go!!
Amazing response to Kat! Too bad she did not read any of it before responding. All hope we (humanity) have is because Christ fulfilled the Law - we could never live up to the requirements. Another verse other "gospel"-feel-gooders do not like is John 14:6, Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man comes unto the Father but by ME." No, being a "good" person isn't enough, 'specially since there ain't none! Since the Garden, when God told Eve that she would be saved through childbirth, God's people looked forward to the Savior (being born of a woman, having no earthly father, and therefore not carrying the sin of Adam). We are so very blessed to be able to look back at the Savior, and KNOW what He did and how. Excuse my preacher's kid moment, and have a great day! Thanks, Scott!!

Thomas Jefferson: Patriot - part 1
Jefferson's Religious Beliefs
by Rebecca Bowman
Monticello Research Department, August 1997

In Query XVII of Notes on the State of Virginia, Thomas Jefferson clearly outlines the views which led him to play a leading role in the campaign to separate church and state and which culminated in the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom:

"The rights of conscience we never submitted, we could not submit. We are answerable for them to our God. The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

http://www.monticello.org/reports/interests/religion.html

Thomas Jefferson: Patriot - part 2
The People's Bible Goes to Washington
by Holly Lebowitz Ross
BeliefNet.com, February 23, 2005

What is the Jefferson Bible? In 1820, just six years before his death, Thomas Jefferson set about editing the New Testament, physically removing with scissors all verses that pertained to miracles, resurrection, and anything supernatural, and pasting the rest together. What he was left with was, he believed, a purely moral document...

Not everyone is so positive about the Jefferson Bible. Ben Witherington III, a professor of New Testament at Asbury Theological Seminary in Lexington, KY, says that the Jefferson Bible "makes Jesus into a talking head."

Witherington, who agreed with Patton that Jefferson's intent was to cull a moral code from Christianity, nonetheless said that such a document, devoid of Jesus' miraculous and supernatural acts, is "not useful" to politicians or anyone.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/161/story_16121_1.html

Kat Chalater
I am going to respectfully disagree with you, based on Jesus' own words. Cherry picking the word of God and saying only the red-letter words are the true message is disengenous, but since you've engaged in it, I'll show you that Jesus said more than just "love thy enemy" and "give to the poor."

But He (Jesus) answered, “It is written: Man must not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.” Matthew 4:4 (quoting Dt 8:3)

Then Jesus told him, “Go away, Satan! For it is written: Worship the Lord your God, and serve only Him." Matthew 4:10 (quoting Dt 6:13)

If it was good enough for Jesus to quote from the Old Testament, I think Christians should be able to do it as well. I think that should lay aside any discussion of whether Jesus would have supported the Old Testament, but the following statement makes it pretty clear that that was never His intention.

“Don’t assume that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For I assure you: Until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or one stroke of a letter will pass from the law until all things are accomplished. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches people to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever practices and teaches [these commandments] will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:17-19

If you read the rest of the chapter, you will see that Jesus thought people ought to live righteously -- far more righteously than the Old Testament commanded. He was about WAY more than feeding the poor and loving your enemy.

From then on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, because the kingdom of heaven has come near!” Matthew 4:17

Where did Paul meet Christ? Well, in a blinding light on the road to Damascus, recounted in Acts 9. "As he traveled and was nearing Damascus, a light from heaven suddenly flashed around him. Falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” “Who are You, Lord?” he said. “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” He replied.
“But get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

So, you say just read the words of Jesus and ignore Paul. Interesting, because Jesus didn't ignore Paul. He thought this man was so vitally important to the New Testament Church that He stepped back into human history and essentially struck the man with lightning.

The red-letter version of the gospel of humankind guts Jesus' real teachings and turns them into milque-toast platitudes, which is (I'm guessing) exactly what people like you want others to think Jesus was all about. Jesus Himself quoted from every book of the Old Testament (save Esther, which was why it was almost not included in the canon). That would include Jeremiah. He spoke to Paul on the road to Damascus. To me, that speaks volumns about what He meant to teach and to have taught in His name.

We may find that what Jesus had His followers teach is inconvenient for us in terms of being loved by the world, but then, we're not supposed to be loved by the world.

If you want to know what the New Testament teaches Christians on how to live and conduct themselves, check out my blog.

religiouslib
At least you are consistant. There is still no comparison between the two. In one instance you are killing the most innocent and in the other you killing the guilty every time if you believe the following article..

This from a Jeff Jacoby article from 2002
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/jeff/jacoby060702.asp
"Death-penalty prosecutions typically undergo years of appeals, often attracting intense scrutiny and media attention. So painstaking is the super-due process of capital murder cases that for all the recent hype about innocent prisoners on death row, there is not a single proven case in modern times of an innocent person being executed in the United States."

"The most striking protection of innocent life has been seen in Texas, which executes more murderers than any other state. In 1991, the Texas murder rate was 15.3 per 100,000. By 1999, it had fallen to 6.1 -- a drop of 60 percent. Within Texas, the most aggressive death penalty prosecutions are in Harris County (the Houston area). Since the resumption of executions in 1982, the annual number of Harris County murders has plummeted from 701 to 241 -- a 72 percent decrease."

Onward Christian Soldier
America was founded on the best of democratic principles, the very best being the Christian tenet to love thy neighbor as you love yourself. The founders no matter the degree of their Christian belief believed in this precept and the Ten Commandments.

We borrowed from the Greek philosophr Plato's 'The Republic', the anicent Roman general and ruler Cincinatus and the Roman republic system to found the greatest nation in all of the history of civilization.

Christianity is a philosphy with a sound moral code for the ages. As long as the King James Bible and its revisions such as the New International Versions, the life and teachings of Christ is the principal Bible of choice, the Jefferson Bible with its strictly Christ commanded moral tone serves a purpose.

Our government was based not on the supernatural acts of Jesus Christ, but was borne of The Ten Commandments and Christ's teachings which is contained in the Jefferson Bible.

To keep this in the right perspective read what Christ told those for whom he performed miracles. They were commanded not to tell anyone about their personal miracle and by whom it was done. It would take away from the moral precepts he was teaching. Jefferson, a Deist understood this.

Christians should be aware of their responsibility to this great nation by being in contant tune to its founding principles. Alexa de Tocqueville, a visiting French aristocrat who spent nine months in our nations in the 1830's left fully understanding from whence America and Americans received their greatness. No other person so understood our nations, its citizens and so appreciated us like de Tocqueville --- can you believe the guy was from France.

Christ was a man of peace who also could express anger in animated ways. We pride ourselves as being a nation of peace that reacts angrily to human injustice the world over. That is who we are and hopefully will always be.

Tell your Christian friends it is their duty and responsibility to 'one nation, under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all' to get out the vote as a matter of passing the grand experiment down to our posterity.

God is the glue
The glue that has held this democracy together where all others have failed is God Jehovah and his Son Jesus Christ. It is people not God that contribute to the defeat of nations.

If you quote Jesus, please get it right
Sorry if this has already been noted. I just don't have time to wade through the volumes above.

Kat, Lord bless her, misquotes Jesus. Kat says:"In my Bible Christ says, "If one strikes you on the cheek, turn the other cheek to him also." Or maybe she really does have a different Bible.

But here you get the more complete rendering:
Matthew 5:38-39

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

Why does Jesus specify the right cheek? Because the vast majority of people are right handed,and they will connect with your LEFT JAW if they throw a haymaker to cause physical damage. If the attacker strikes your right cheek, it is likely a backhanded slap, meant to show disdain and contempt. It's an insult more than an attempt to physically harm.

Jesus is merely saying to not retaliate when someone insults you. He does not say you can't defend yourself when endangered, especially at the national level...Caesar's level.

If you're gonna quote Jesus, please get it right.


Neither A nor B

.....Alter Idem ...

.....A true Christian could not vote for either candidate ....Thou shalt not Kill does not have an escape clause ...

.....You wrote that ..."a society that will not protect its most innocent has failed." ... I agree ...would you also agree that aborted babies were our most innocent? ...even the ones that were created by rape? ...

.....though child molestors who kill their victims deserve, in my opinion, to die ...it is not man's call ..."Vengence is mine saith the Lord" ...

.....I must admit that I have violated the Commandment I have cited here (Vietnam) but I have asked God for absolution and I hope that it will be granted ...it's His call .....COLOSSUS

Starspangledblogger
That's all Jesus was saying, don't return insult for insult? That seems a bit trivial. what about the "do not resist evil" part? Surely, he wasn't describing evil as merely an insult. It's likely that he was saying, 'not only do I not want you to return injury for injury, I don't even want you to return insult for insult.'

Jesus, or those who wrote for him, was a total pacifist. Why? because he/they believed God was going to end history in the lifetimes of those alive at that time. Pacifism, not the fight for survival, was their ticket to heaven. This explains why nothing was written down for the next 30 years after Jesus's death. Why bother, since the next generation would see the real thing right here on earth?

Prior to the printing press, it was easy for religious leaders to overlook this inconvenient passage in the bible, thus preventing uncomfortable questions from arising in their flocks. (See Matt 24:34)

When Constantine made Christianity the state religion of the Roman empire in the 4th century, Christianity became wedded to the world, the last thing Christ wanted, I'm afraid.

This is not to say that Christianity is a bad thing. Far from it. I believe it is a great force for good in the world and its disappearance from America would be a great loss. But when the pacifism of Christ is thrown into the face of a Christian by those who want him/her to acquiesce in the destruction of America, they have to accept that though the Christianity they are defending is not exactly the Christianity of Christ, it is still worthy of defense. And so is America.

Self Righteous or Righteous?
There are the self righteous and there are those who follow Christ. Those filled with hate for liberals, gays, illegal immigrants and so on do not follow Christ but try to use Him as their excuse for hatred.

Those are the people to whom Jesus will say. "Get behind me I never knew you."

They haven't changed since the hypocrits, Pharisees and Sadducees. Why do you think Jesus told the story of the Good Samaritan to show that those who are considered inferior to the "righteous" folk are actually more righteous than they are.

There are the righteous and the self-righteous. You can tell the self-righteous by their intolerance and hate.

In my opinion, using Jesus to excuse your hatred is Blasphemy.

Kat Chalater / For your consideration...


Kat Chalater writes: “You made my point very well.”

Sadly, it appears that you missed the point of my post entirely.



Kat Chalater writes: “You see you went to the O.T. when it fit your point of view.”

Kat, I specifically quoted the New Testament 39 times. I quoted the Old Testament exactly twice. In both instances, the OT quote was in support of the New Testament:

1. The first quote was Exodus 3:14 - "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." I used that verse to demonstrate the parallel with the words of Christ in John 8:58 - “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM." (emphasis mine, and please, do go back and check for yourself).

2. The second OT quote was Jeremiah 31:31 - “Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:”. That verse was immediately followed with Hebrews 8:8 - “For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:”

At the risk of sounding flippant, do you not see the parallel between Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8:8? Beginning with “I will make a new covenant”, they are the SAME, word for word, both OT and NT. The point was to show that the Old Testament itself prophesied the end of the Old Covenant and the coming of a New Covenant, and that in the New Testament this prophecy was fulfilled. It was a minor and secondary point to the main point, which included six quotes encompassing 14 verses, showing that the Old Law had been fulfilled and put aside, and that a New Covenant had begun, the Covenant under which we live to this day.

But you said “You see you went to the O.T. when it fit your point of view”. Neither of the two OT quotes were used to support the superiority of the Old Testament, in fact quite the opposite: they were BOTH used to support the superiority of the New Testament. Apparently you did not even read my previous post, because if you had read my comments, you would have recognized that. If you DID read my comments, then how can your comments be regarded as anything other than intellectual dishonesty? Since I prefer to suspect the former, I would ask that you go back and (re)read my previous post for the first time.



Kat Chalater writes: “But when I pointed out passages in the Old Testament you claimed they did not apply.”

Indeed, let us take a look at the passages you pointed out:

Kat Chalater wrote previously: “In Numbers it says that the first born of a cow, goat etc. shall not be eaten but its blood shall be sprinkled on an alter. Or this, this is the law if a man dies in a house everyone in that house is unclean. They shall take ashes of the burnt sin offering and water and sprinkle it on the house. Now how many Christian do that?

At this point I need to ask, are you familiar with the terms “foreshadow” or “anti-type”? Most of us were probably taught the concept of “foreshadowing” or “anti-types” in 7th and 8th grade English literature classes (Hemmingway’s “A Farewell to Arms”, Steinbeck’s “Of Mice and Men” and Orwell’s “Animal Farm” come to mind).

I looked up the word “Anti-type” for both of us to consider:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=antitype

3 results for: antitype

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
an•ti•type –noun
something that is foreshadowed by a type or symbol, as a New Testament event prefigured in the Old Testament.

American Heritage Dictionary
an•ti•type - n.
One that is foreshadowed by or identified with an earlier symbol or type, such as a figure in the New Testament who has a counterpart in the Old Testament.

WordNet
antitype -noun
a person or thing represented or foreshadowed by a type or symbol; especially a figure in the Old Testament having a counterpart in the New Testament


Now, if you already understand the words “anti-type” and “foreshadowing”, and you are already familiar with the Biblical patterns and how they build upon one another from Genesis to Revelation, and how the Old Testament truly is a schoolmaster pointing out to us what was to come, then we can safely move on to your next point of contention.

I suspect, however, that this is not really the case, and that you might benefit from more study regarding the importance of the Old Testament and its relationship to the New Testament (a study from which I think most of us, certainly including myself, could benefit).

We are not under the Old Law, but how much better might you understand the New Law, if you had a better understanding of that which came before? God did not come up with the New Testament as an afterthought, or because His intentions for the Old Law “didn’t work” (God forbid)! Does God not know all things, including the end from the beginning? Certainly there is nothing mankind can do that will surprise Him or catch Him “offguard”. God’s plan for salvation was completely formed before the foundations of the world were laid, and Christ was part of that plan, from the beginning.

Is it not written: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made…”?



Kat Chalater wrote previously: “Or Deuteronomy which says if a man rapes a girl in a city they shall both be stoned but if a man rapes a girl in the country only the man will be stoned.”

Let us take a look at the passage in question, shall we?

(Deuteronomy 22:23-27) “If a damsel [that is] a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; [24] Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, [being] in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you. [25] But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die: [26] But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; [there is] in the damsel no sin [worthy] of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so [is] this matter: [27] For he found her in the field, [and] the betrothed damsel cried, and [there was] none to save her.” (KJV)

Without getting into a deep discussion involving the context of the chapter and laws against deceit, is this not plain enough on the surface? If the situation occurred in a populated area (i.e., in a city), help was readily available, and the woman should cry out for help. If the situation occurred in a field, there would be no help readily available. The woman could (and should) cry out for help “in the city”, but “in the field”, away from other people who could help, there is no one to rescue her. In such a case (“in the field”), how could the woman be guilty? And not being guilty, how could she be deserving of punishment? Where would the justice be in punishing her for being the victim of a crime?

What part of this are you having difficulty with? We don’t live under the Old Law today, but the principles of justice, of right and wrong, are not simply discarded because the Old Law was fulfilled by Christ. What does any of it have to do with your point(s) regarding the New Testament or your accusation that Christians “simply glean the Old Testament for messages of hate”?



Kat Chalater writes: “Then you say all parts of the Bible apply except I guess where you say they do not apply.”

More and more I am becoming convinced that you have closed your heart and mind to any knowledge or understanding of the Old Testament, choosing to view the New Testament as if it sprang fully formed out of nothingness, without precedent, pattern, prophecy, or principle. If I understand correctly, you say we should follow only the teaching of Christ. Are you referring specifically to the words specifically attributed to Christ, often highlighted in red letters in study Bibles? To the exclusion of any other writing in the Bible? Who do you think inspired ALL of the OTHER writing in the Bible?

Since Christ did not personally write ANY of the books of the New Testament, presumably you believe that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were inspired by God. I agree. The Book of Acts was also written by Luke, do you believe the Book of Acts was inspired too? If not, why not? First, Second and Third John, and Revelation, were written down by the same writer who wrote the Gospel of John, do you believe that all of John’s writings contained in the Bible were inspired? If not, why not?

I would like to understand why you think the inspired writing of James, Peter, Jude and Paul are not the inspired Word of God too, if that is indeed your position.
Will you call Paul a liar? “If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 14:37)

Will you not even believe the very Word of Christ Himself? Was He lying when He said that He prayed for His apostles, and for those who would believe in Him through their word?

“NEITHER PRAY I FOR THESE ALONE, BUT FOR THEM ALSO WHICH SHALL BELIEVE ON ME THROUGH THEIR WORD; Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me” (John 17:20-21, emphasis mine)

If you limit yourself to only those parts of the New Testament specifically attributed to Christ (i.e., His “quotes”), have you not denied the purpose of God’s chosen apostles?

Have you not denied the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? What have you to say regarding these “red letter” words attributed directly and specifically to Christ our Savior?

“But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you”. (John 14:26)

If you deny any or all inspired writing besides the four Gospels, have you not effectively made yourself the arbiter of truth, and shredded the Word of God?

If this is the case, you must provide the Authority under which you have done such a thing. Book, chapter and verse would be most welcome, if you can produce it. We both know you cannot, so I am quite interested to understand whether you have ANY sound reasoning behind your position, or if it is entirely emotionally based, and therefore subject to being “tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive” (see Ephesians 4:14).



Kat Chalater writes: “Again I say, go to your Gospels and read the teachings of Christ. You will be surprised. Just follow the teachings of Christ, not Jeremiah or Paul, they are not Christ.”

As I demonstrated in my previous post, in great detail which you have neither addressed nor answered, the teaching of those writers who were inspired by Christ were entirely consistent with the teaching of Christ and were teaching what Christ taught. The Bible does not contradict itself, because there is only One Author.

It just occurred to me to think about why you might want to exclude everything but the Gospels, for it is no secret that there is much contained in the Word of God that many people dislike. Usually, what people dislike is linked in one way or another to salvation. So I thought about it, and I am guessing at this point that you believe in “once saved, always saved”.

Not being any secret, let’s review WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS regarding SALVATION.


1. HEAR. According to the GOSPEL OF JOHN we must HEAR the Gospel: “It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath HEARD, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me” (John 6:45). This is supported by Paul in Romans 10:17 - “So then faith [cometh] by HEARING, and HEARING by the word of God.”


2. BELIEVE. According to the GOSPEL OF JOHN we must BELIEVE: “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye BELIEVE not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins” (John 8:24). This is supported by Luke in Acts 16:31 - “And they said, BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house” and by (presumably) Paul in Hebrews 11:6 - “But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must BELIEVE that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him”.


3. REPENT. According to the GOSPEL OF LUKE we must REPENT: “I tell you, Nay: but, except ye REPENT, ye shall all likewise perish” (Luke 13:3). This teaching is supported by Acts 2:38 - “Then Peter said unto them, REPENT, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost” and again in Acts 17:30 - “And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to REPENT”.


4. CONFESS. According to the GOSPEL OF MATTHEW we must CONFESS Christ: “Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I CONFESS also before my Father which is in heaven. [33] But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 10:32-33). This teaching is supported by Paul in Romans 10:9-10 - “That if thou shalt CONFESS with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. [10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth CONFESSION is made unto salvation”.


5. Be BAPTIZED. According to the GOSPEL OF MARK, we must be BAPTIZED: “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. [16] He that believeth and is BAPTIZED shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned” (Mark 16:15-16).

This teaching is supported by Luke in Acts 2:38 - “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost”.

And again in Acts 22:16 - “And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be BAPTIZED, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord”.

And again in Acts 16:33 - “And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed [their] stripes; and was BAPTIZED, he and all his, straightway”.

And again in Acts 10:47-48 - “Can any man forbid water, that these should not be BAPTIZED, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? [48] And he commanded them to be BAPTIZED in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days”.

And again in Acts 16:14-15 - "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard [us]: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. [15] And when she was BAPTIZED, and her household, she besought [us], saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide [there]. And she constrained us”.

And again in Acts 8:37-38 - “And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. [38] And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he BAPTIZED him”.


6. REMAIN FAITHFUL. Hmmm… if we deny the inspired Word of God except for the four Gospels, maybe we don’t need to remain faithful, maybe we can just believe and be baptized and then party like there’s no tomorrow. Is that at all consistent with what we have just reviewed, or indeed is such a belief consistent with any teaching found in the Bible?

Shall we just ignore 2 Peter 2:20-23 (For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. [21] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. [22] But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.)?

What will we do about Revelation 2:10 - "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: BE THOU FAITHFUL UNTO DEATH, and I will give thee a crown of life"?

If we ignore both John (Revelation 2:10) and Peter (2 Peter 2:20-23), what about Paul?

1 Corinthians 9:24-27 - "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. [25] And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they [do it] to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. [26] I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: [27] But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway".

2 Timothy 4:6-8 - "For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. [7] I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have KEPT THE FAITH: [8] Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing”.



Kat Chalater writes: “If you are a Christian you follow the teachings of Christ.”

I am doing my best to follow the teachings of Christ, indeed, the whole counsel of God, I have not taken it upon myself to disregard whole sections of His inspired Word.

Still, it matters not at all what I believe (except to me, of course), what matters is what the Bible actually says, what we have good reason and cause to believe based on what the Word of God says. If you do not believe the Bible, except for the four Gospels, for the sake of your soul I hope that you have not done so on a whim, but that you have tried the spirits, reasoned, tested and proven all things, holding fast that which is good.

If you have done so, if you can substantiate your position, with anything at all, as a Christian are you not obligated to share what you believe to be the truth with your brothers and sisters in Christ, that they might search the scriptures themselves, to discern whether those things you say are so?

I am far from perfect in my knowledge or understanding, but I am continually striving to understand better the Word of my Lord and Savior, and I am interested in understanding the reason and cause for your position. Certainly there are many honest and legitimate points raised above that require a sincere and considered response on your part, if you intend to maintain your current position.

I look forward to your reply.


Star Spangled Blogger
As a matter of fact there are many versions of the N.T. There is the King James Version, The Good News Version, The Westminster Study Bible and many others. Some try to put the language into modern English, some try to go back to the ancient Hebrew, Greek, Latin and Aramaic. So to say someone misquoted is not altogether correct.

Kat said
"As a matter of fact there are many versions of the N.T. There is the King James Version, The Good News Version, The Westminster Study Bible and many others. Some try to put the language into modern English, some try to go back to the ancient Hebrew, Greek, Latin and Aramaic. So to say someone misquoted is not altogether correct."

Sure. You have many choices. But please, be judicious and choose one that doesn't arbitrarily snip parts of verses out to make them fit more nicely into some PC ideology.


Kat Chalater, you seem to divorce Jesus

Kat Chalater, you seem to divorce Jesus from God. Yet, Jesus IS God.

John wrote in his Gospel about this very concept:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
Jesus is called the Word. Jesus IS God in the flesh.

Jesus declared this concept about himself:
John 10:30-33 I and the Father are one." Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
“We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
John 17:11-12 Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name-the name you gave me-so that they may be one as we are one.
John 17:22-23 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me.

Jesus also said that He did not come to destroy the law:
Matt 5:17-19 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

If Jesus IS God then what God said in the OT is what Jesus said too. You can’t separate them.
If Jesus said that He hates something, then it is only logical that we who truly follow Him should hate it too. If something is an abomination to Him, the reasonable followers of Christ should feel abomination also. To deny that is to stop following Christ.

Now just because we who follow Christ judge sin does not meant that we are to condemn for punishment the sinner. Unless we are chosen for jury duty wherein we must punish according to the law, it is only our job to judge one another for correction and admonishment. Jesus will be the true Judge and His judgment will be fair.

You can agree with me or not. That is your choice. But Scripture will not be changed. You claim to follow Christ. That is good; follow Him completely and stop trying to cherry pick the verses that please you. Jesus hated sin. We are to do the same.

Lay Down and Die writes
that Jesus was a total pacifist. Jesus came with a specific mission. It did not include physical violence against others ( unless you count the money changers thing at the temple). He did, after all, dispatch his Disciples at one point with weapons for self defense.

Yes, he wanted his people to live peacably. But he did not expect them to sit back and watch their children be slaughtered. Do you for one moment think he expected entire nations to lay down and die, even if it is peopled by his people? I guess you do. That's the reason America will die. Good luck finding a church when that happens.

Frank Pastore
Frank,
You certainly got some mileage from your column !
Keep the Faith !

Starspangledblogger
You are referring to his conversation with the desciples at the Last Supper, Luke 22:35. They had only two swords, not enough for all 12 of them, but Jesus said "It is enough." Why? Because the next scene is him and some of his disciples in the Garden of Gethsemene, and as the authorities were about to arrest Jesus, one of his disciples used a sword to cut off the ear of the slave of the high priest who was leading them.

If they were to defend themselves in their preaching, why not a sword for each? I think the whole idea was to explain why a disciple had a sword with him that night, something that would have been otherwise uncharacteristic of Jesus and his disciples. Whether Jesus was really a pacifist or not, I think the writers were eager to portray him as such. After all, it was written that he got angry over the impulsive earectomy, and healed the slave, just to further empasize Jesus's pacifism.

As for slaughter, I think Jesus probably expected it. Look what they did to him, but he said, "follow me." Look what they did to the Christians in Nero's time. The lesson is all over the gospels: This life isn't worth a hoot. The next life is all that matters.

Peace?
The only source from whence peace is a gift is THE WORD OF GOD. From men, peace must be earned. The greater the cost, the more peace is cherished.

Desu wrote:
One must understand a few things about the Old Testament (heretofor: OT) before we begin to understand the references to stonings, slavery and the like.

Yes, Leviticus has some very "controversial" subjects listed. Or are they really that controversial?

Since you commented, let's look at slavery. First and most importantly, Biblical slavery should never be misconstrued with slavery in England and America. What was done to scores of African people in the 18th and 19th centuries is unthinkable. But when Leviticus speaks of slavery we cannot apply what we know from the history of this country.

Biblical slavery was a system where a person or a person and his/her family willingly entered into a contract with a wealthy land owner to work and be provided for in turn for the work they provided the wealthy individual. Slaves were treated with respect and as family in the majority of cases. Were there abuses within this system? We're talking about human beings. You bet there were but not as many as you think. For Israel was not a Democracy but a Theocracy, and its rules were strictly adherred to keep wicked folks in line. They did not want things to spread like diseases do.

And that takes me to my second point (to answer your question adequately). As Israel was a Theocracy, and given that Israel was surrounded by vile, pagan societies with porous borders, the governing authority had to use such drastic measures on the ravaging influences of the pagan societies that lived so close to the people of the 12 tribes. They did not have the luxury of a fantastic army and police force or streamlined laws that we enjoy (our laws are more streamlined, by the way, because of centuries of trial and error beginning and ending with the Judeo-Christian model of law and justice). Also, God knew the human weakness for doing what is wrong and wanting to keep His people free of the bad stuff around them, He commanded the immediate implementation of these harsh rules, like stoning adulteres, homosexuals, murderers, etc.

It is important that we do not jump to conclusions based on our very uninformed notions of what we understand when we here such words like slavery, capital punishment, stoning, and so on. We must take into account the history of the way the Hebrews lived, how their society functioned and so on. Israel not only survived while the surrounding cultures disappeared, they grew and flourished as long as they stuck to the law. Once they discarded God's laws for the practices of other, outside cultures, then the Hebrews headed into decline.


The OT is not different than that of the NT. No, they compliment one another perfectly. We just have to remember each law and its immediate and historical context.

ESR

Scott is correct
The New Covenant is actually tougher than the Old Testament Law in this sense. In the Old Testament Law, you have specific do's and don'ts. In the New Covenant, you obey God's will for you and not a specific set of written down laws.

However, when the majority in a society all believe God's will is to ban certain behavior, they are to do it. Thus we have laws based on the majority that were religious like adultery still in 21 states, cohabitation with the intent to fornicate in 7 states, obscenity laws, Sunday closing laws, profanity laws and other laws based on the religious people who formed the majority.

But, for each person, indidivually, it is even much more demanding.

In the New Covenant, you marry who God wills you to marry. You work at and where God wills you to. You do everything based on God's will and don't do anything that is against God's will.

Thus, many things that were banned in the Old Testament, we find are also sinful in the New Testament as Jesus pointed out in the quotes I provided you.

The penalty is also a part of God's will and while we can certainly undertand putting someone to death for adultery since that could very easily spread sexually transmitted diseases that could not be cured and could cause others to die that caught those diseases, it was "murder" in a sense.

Also, stoning the child who was disrespectful never had a recorded instance of the punishment being carried out but, like the purpose of all laws, it demostrates the seriousness of the offense and has an added purpose. It was an incentive to parents to raise their children to respect their authority because a child raised to respect authority in the home was more likely to respect the authority of the community and the laws of the community.

We see today that often children who have no respect for the "law" in the home, also have no respect for the "law" of the community and while we wouldn't stone the child for his disrespect, we certainly pay for it in crime and insurance premioums and incarceration costs in many cases.

In the Old Testament, God specified the punishment as well as the limits on behavior that were sinful. Now we still have God's will for what is sinful determining our behavior but, we as a society determine how we will punish those who violate the laws we as a majority decide to legislate and enforce.

In the Old Testament too, we have to remember that they were operating under a different culture in a different time when life was easily lost to disease, war, famine, etc. and any violation of God's will could lead to the death of others. There were secular benefits to most of the laws of the Old Testament and many of the "common sense" benefits of those laws still apply today whether we have the same penalties or not.

The Old Testament also gave people the chance to see they couldn't be "righteous" on their own no matter how many laws they had. Much of what the people wanted was everything so detailed in what to do and not to do that they would be righteous by just following the law.

The New Covenant reveals that it isn't just the laws and obedience to them that makes you righteous but 100% obediance to God's will (Jesus being God means God's will is Jesus' will also). And, of course, anytime we aren't 100% following God's will, we are to repent (stop doing the behavior that violates God's will).

We know also that as Scott states, all of the New Testament applies, not just the Gospels.

baseballdoc

Yes I was referring to the most innocent--aborted babies of any creation---but the problem becomes that the victim of forcible rape is also innocent of the creation and if she elects to have the baby aborted the perp should be tried for forcible rape and murder and put to death for the killing of our most innocent---the baby. I prefer to think we are simply getting the perp to a place that God can extract his vengeance a little quicker. And luckily I don't think you or I get to decide what a true Christian is other than having an opinion about it.

I am so sorry for you.
I must say the desire for hatred expressed by many I would guess conservatives on this chat is dispiriting. Searching and searching the Bible for hatred? For intolerance? Christ was least tolerant of the self-righteous and hypocritical than any other group.

I really pity you all. And I mean it that you do not accept Christ. I will pray for you that you come to know Christ and stop being self-righteous instead of righteous.

Jesus is tenderly calling you. Why won't you get to know him?

Dear Kat
It is not evidence of hatred, self-righteousness, or hypocrisy that Christians believe Jesus when he said, in Matthew 5:17-20:

17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

If what other Christians choose to quote out of the Old Testament seems selective to you, I urge you to investigate further, and not just assume that other people are speaking from hate. Jesus affirmed the entire Old Testament in the above passage. Did he speak from hate?

In answer to your original question from days ago, Christians don't cite the sacrifices mandated by the OT Law -- of firstborn animals, in your example -- because Jesus has obviated them through his supreme sacrifice. It's not because we repudiate the original Law, but because those sacrifices are no longer necessary to atone for our sin, and keep us in fellowship with God (the purpose of the Law's sacrifices).

The Law identifies sin for us, so that we know what it is. Before Jesus, it prescribed both punishment and sacrifices to keep God's people in an acceptable standing with him. Jesus' sacrifice obviated all other sacrifices for sin; they are no longer needed. As for punishments under the Law, there is less unanimity among Christians, but many take the passage in which he says "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone" to mean that we are no longer under the system of punishments for sin that prevailed under the Law.

The sin has not changed, though. After dispersing the vengeful crowd with his statement, Jesus told the woman found in adultery to go and sin no more. It is not hatred to accept that the Law tells us what sin is. Rather, it is following Jesus.

View of a Christian Patriot
Thank you Mr. Pastore for a thoughtful commentary. I identify myself as a Christian consevative. I am also a patriot. I have voted in every election since I was 18. I voted for Jimmy Carter the first time, Ronald Reagan the second time and Republican ever since. I believe I consistantly vote in every election because my family taught me to be a good citizen. Jesus did say render to Ceasar what is Ceasar's and to God what is God's. In America Ceasar is replaced by a government elected by the people and for the people. This puts the responsibility for good government on every single individual with a right to vote in this country. I don't want to live in a theocracy or a secular dictatorship, but I will vote for the man or woman who I believe best will represent my values as a conservative Christian from the school board to the White House.
Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.