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Monday, November 27, 2006
Frank Gaffney :: Townhall.com Columnist
The new groupthink
by Frank Gaffney
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We are, as the saying goes, between Iraq and a hard place. Unfortunately, events this week seem likely to drive us inexorably closer to the hard place – one that is going to be a lot worse than what we have seen in Iraq so far.

These events include a two-day trip to the woodshed in Amman, Jordan with President Bush for Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki. They will be considering ways in which al-Maliki can prevent the collapse of his government and his country’s slide into full-scale civil war. Presumably, the two leaders will be factoring in the results of Vice President Cheney’s three-hour visit to Riyadh to appeal to the Saudi king, Abdullah, for help with Iraq.

Iraqi President Jalal Talabani will be meeting with his Iranian counterpart, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, in Tehran to discuss bilateral relations. Presumably, among the topics for discussion will be the success Iran’s regime is having in its efforts to destroy a Free Iraq.

Finally, there will be two days of deliberations by the Iraq Study Group, co-chaired by former Secretary of State James Baker and former Rep. Lee Hamilton. This panel, which was commissioned by Congress to examine alternatives to the present approach in Iraq, is reportedly considering a proposed report drafted largely at Mr. Baker’s direction.

What all these events have in common is the notion that the “solution” to Iraq lies in a “regional” approach. The leitmotif is that U.S. unilateralism is dead, long live multilateralism. A chastened America will be brought to its senses by the collective wisdom of Jim Baker, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Kings Abdullah of Jordan and Saudi Arabia.

But what, exactly, does this regional approach portend?

Reduced to its essence, the Baker-promoted regional strategy is a euphemism for throwing Free Iraq to the wolves in its neighborhood: Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia. The vehicle for doing so will presumably be some sort of international conference attended by such powers, together with others in the region (like Jordan and Egypt), and augmented by interested parties from elsewhere – including Britain, France, Russia and China.

Unfortunately, past experience has taught that such a conclave would not be good for freedom-loving people. The Iraqis would, of course, be toast. The best they could hope for is a new autocratic ruler whose repressive behavior will enjoy the support of the tyrants next door. They will no longer have the United States to kick around, and those who foolishly stood with us for a better future will meet an unpleasant fate.

If we are lucky, the regional “process” will afford American forces a fig-leaf behind we might obscure our strategic defeat. Heliborne evacuations from the Green Zone a la the fall of Saigon three decades ago may be avoided, provided our enemies allow us to effect a dignified “strategic redeployment.” More likely, we will be bloodied on the way out by terrorists, insurgents and others intent on compounding the ignominy insofar as it will serve their larger purpose: our destruction in the world beyond Iraq, including ultimately here at home.

Among the other predictable casualties of the regional strategy will be the people of Israel. Jim Baker’s hostility towards the Jews is a matter of record and has endeared him to Israel’s foes in the region. What could be more appealing to the latter than an international conference that will simultaneously undo the experiment in freedom in Iraq and compel Israel to make further territorial concessions. Of course, these will not mitigate conflicts in Iraq and Lebanon that have nothing to do with Israel. They will, however, allow the Mideast’s only bona fide democracy, the Jewish State, to be snuffed in due course.

We are, in short, poised to stand the U.S. Marine’s motto “No better friend, no worse enemy” on its head. If the Baker regional strategy is adopted, we will prove to all the world that it is better to be America’s enemy than its friend.

If these undesirable outcomes are so predictable, why are we slouching towards the hard place of the “regional solution”?

It comes down to a lack of seriousness on the part of too many elected leaders of both parties – exhibited in a failure themselves to understand the gravity of a global war in which Iraq is but one front, and a failure to educate their constituents about the stakes associated with such a war. This superciliousness has translated into political circumstances in the United States (including delegating great responsibility to unelected and unaccountable commissions) and strategic conditions elsewhere that make diplomatic options appear more real and appealing than they are.

Of late, it has become fashionable to assess blame for failures of intelligence and policy to “groupthink.” The term describes the phenomenon whereby lots of smart people feel pressure to conform to a consensus view and, in the process, lose (or at least suppress) their willingness to observe that the emperor has no clothes.

Rarely has the pressure to go along with such groupthink been greater than is increasingly the case with respect to the idea of relying on one or the other of our foes – Iran, Syria or Saudi Arabia – to solve our problems in Iraq. And rarely has it been more important that this strategy of appeasement, and the very hard place to which it will lead us, be rejected.

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About The Author

Frank Gaffney Jr. is the founder and president of the Center for Security Policy and author of War Footing: 10 Steps America Must Take to Prevail in the War for the Free World .
 
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I have an article on this on my blog
Stop by and see, "The Fix is In - We're Buggin' Out!"

This nation cannot afford to start fights with cave dwellers and leave the job undone and with the perception that we were defeated. If we can be undone by this, we have no credibility left in the world. British historian Niall Ferguson's observation that America is the worlds only superpower with ADHD rings true in light of this fecklessness on our part.

Gaffney="Mr. Sunshine..."
Thanks Mr. Gaffney for this very uplifting piece. And of all days on a Monday! After a 4 day weekend. But I have to say, it does appear to be as you have described it. Its not lookin' good dude. At all. Our poor President seems a beaten/broken man. Defeated. It has to be obvious to any reasonable person that the insurgents spirits have skyrocketed since the Dems victory. They are flaunting their accomplishment just as they did with the Spanish election a few years back. Much more so. And the insurgents want to send a big bear hug and thanks to all those former Repub voters who protest voted for a Dem, 3rd Party candidate or Stayed at Home. Way to go folks! You kicked your President in the teeth and gave the insurgents a huge victory. And turned both legislative houses over the the "cut-n-run" crowd. Are you happy now?
I realize our President has "huge" short comings. But look at whats happening. Are we really considering going into negotiations w/a couple of terrorist states like Iran and Syria? I thought we didn't negotiate with terrorists. This is insane. Seems like the lunatics are now in charge of the asylum?
I'd love to see the President reach down, pull himself up by his boot straps and phone James Baker. And the conversation'd go something like this: "Hey Jim-Bo. W here. I've decided to use your Iraq Study Group paper. Yes I have it right here next to my commode!" And then hang up, order an air strike w/a couple of MOAB Daisy Cutters dropped on Muqtada al-Sadr and his band of merry men. Then just sit back and wait for world opinion to go berserk for a week or so. Order the Press out of Iraq. Then send the Iraqi gov't home for Christmas break while the U.S. Armed Forces clean up the mess. This could all be done before Jan. 20th I'll betcha! Might as well go out with a bang George! DD
http://streetlevel.townhall.com

So What's the alternative?
I think that this is far far worse than the fall of Saigon. In that instance, the people of Vietnam, and later all of southeast asia paid for our unwillingness to finish the job. In this case, it will be first Iraq, then any prowestern (real or feigned) governments in the region, then Israel, then on to Europe. During the cold war, the Soviets and their allies moved methodically and more slowly. Only Soviet setbacks in Afghanistan and Niceragua and the eventual policies of Reagan stopped the domino effect then. The problem is now, we don't have time to wait for a cold war. Eventually, sooner rather than later, the region will go nuclear and we will be subjected to a nuclear 9/11 and/or the human and environmental disaster of a nuclear war between Iran and Israel.

So what do we do? We need a strong voice, a Santorum or a Gingrich to stand up and tell the American people what we face. We need a modern Churchill willing to pay a political price to fight a war of survival, to expand this war, not walk away from it so that we have a chance of victory. Unfortunately, our current president is not willing or able to clearly articulate what we are fighting for, and if he were, the people of this country would simply vote him out of office. I hope it doesn't take another 9/11 to wake America out of its dreamworld, but I fear it will.

As each day
goes by I have kept hope that Bush would stand up and behave like he did after 9/11 and as Darvin Dowdy said, use the Iraq study paper as toilet paper.
Why on earth would we "need" a study when all we need to do is fight like we are in a war for god's sake.
I hope that we do not go down the road of negotiating with Iran/Syria. Is this not insane?
Negotiating with two countries bent on our destruction?

I suppose Bush thinks that there are too many Americans not willing to see this Iraq war won. He does not seem to be taking the necessary steps to end this in victory.

I agree take Mukie Sadr out. Get rid of these insurgents/terrorists. Let the world gripe and criticize us. Who cares? I don't. Who here in the US should care what a bunch of liberal, cowardly Europeans think? They are all going to come sniveling to us when they are no longer able to contain their Muslim problems.

And, yes, these insurgents are feeling oh so powerful. You can see it every day on the news. They have been so emboldened by our election here. This is maddening.

Unfortunately, I also agree with Wil that it is going to take another attack here to wake us all up. And, the next one I fear will be worse than anything we have seen yet.

Gaffney is prescribing failure in Iraq
As Gaffney himself points out the big problem is Bush now knows what the democrats and everyone else has been telling him. We must find a way

"in which al-Maliki can prevent the collapse of his government and his country’s slide into full-scale civil war."

The Bush administration has so mismanaged this war that even staunch supporters like Gaffney now recognize this is what is being fought in Iraq. It is no longer the major front in a "global war on terror". Instead it has become a local struggle between a weak and corrupt government and other indigenous factions attempting to gain control of the country.

Once the Bush administration woke up and realized this, "staying the course" is no longer an acceptable option. All that does is ensure Iraq devolves into even more chaos. We are at the point now where the Bush administration and the American public understand that allowing this to happen is one of the WORST possible outcomes in Iraq.

So if we can't "stay the course," we have to do something new. The options for that something are what everyone is waiting for Baker to put on the table.

The major beneficiaries of a failed Iraqi state in chaos will be the stateless insurgents and terrorists. It is reasonable to talk to neighboring states to build a consensus that this outcome would be no more beneficial to them than it would be to us. It is also likely that no regional power (Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia) wants Iraq and its resources to be completely dominated by any rival local power or a band of terrorists. Remember that the ultimate goal of al Qaeda is to overthrow the current regimes and establish their form of Islamic rule over these countries. Attacking the US is just a step along the way to this ultimate goal. This may give the US significant leverage to get them to compromise on stabilizing Iraq and enlist their help in keeping it stable.

While it is not certain that the Baker commission's recommendations will be successful or even implementable they need to be discussed. Rejecting them out of hand - before they are presented to Congress and the American people is ridiculous.

Peppermint, Bush has no option ...
to do as you suggested when you said ...

"... take Mukie Sadr out. Get rid of these insurgents/terrorists. Let the world gripe and criticize us. Who cares?"

That train left the station when the transitional government left and the elected Maliki - based on the support of Sadr - was handed the reins of power. Iraq is now a sovereign state. We can't just go in and "take people out" without the permission of the Iraqi government. Sadr is the KEY source of Maliki's power. Maliki is literally dead without the explicit support of Sadr. They will both ensure we never get "permission" to take Sadr out.

If we did it without the Iraqi government's permission the Iraqi government would fall. Sadr is a hero in the eyes of a significant portion of the population. He has the strongest and most well organized militia in the country that is well armed with weapons BUSH/RUMSFELD ALLOWED THEM TO KEEP after the fall of Saddam. If we take action to eliminate Sadr we will ensure Iraq is a failed state and the country will be in complete chaos. It will be a terrorist's delight; the complete opposite of our objective for invasion.

Bush declared Iraq a "sovereign power" with its own government before it was ready to assume that role. It is now in the midst of a civil war. That blunder, among many others by Bush and Rumsfeld, made the United States a prisoner of its own rhetoric and unable to pursue a military course to victory. History will not be kind to George W. Bush for this.

Bush as well as the democrats fully understands all of this. Bush will grasp at the Baker recommendations like a drowning man will grasp at straws. He has less than two years to salvage some portion of his reputation and avoid being judged as one of the most catastrophic presidents in the history of our country.

There is therefore NO WAY he is not going to pursue the Baker recommendations with some significant efforts. That is why he had a preliminary meeting with Baker and he is now over there starting the process with Maliki.

Why a Quagmire?
Because of the Dem's continuous opposition since 2003 and their victory on 11/7. Thats what's caused this recent "up-surge" in violence that we've seen since 11/7. The insurgents and world terror are energized by this - big time. It ought to be clear to anyone. This is the kind of victory that global terrorist love. Like Somalia and Spain. Again, way to go all of you who voted in Nancy Pelosi, Charlie Rangel and the rest of the cut-n-run crowd. Our less than perfect President and Military are now left hanging with a big no confidence vote. Only one thing to do at this point. Pick up pen & paper, write our Congressman and Senators and let them know that we don't want to cut-n-run but to win. DD
http://streetlevel.townhall.com

raidencraig the genius at work


raidencraig writes:They promised us: a quick and DECISIVE victory; WMD's; that we would be greeted as liberators (yeah, right!);
No "they" didn't. Bush repeated over and over this will be a long, tiring war, with no clear victories. We aren't fighting a "government" with clear borders to push uniformed troops behind a specific boundary. Grow up and stop looking the gold ring in the blame game.

"that a "democracy" would become friendly to America and serve as an example to spread same in the region-- cumbaya;"

Duh. Ever read any real history or did you get it all from public school in the past 5 years?

"that the oil would pay for the war (say what?!")

Puhleeze. You waste time and space with this rubbish. Please speak a fact, just one.

"They cooked the intelligence and ignored Colin Powell and the military. They duped the TIMES to buy into the plot so Congress would dutifully go along-- the bitter memory of 9/11 was fresh-- the time was ripe for the covert agenda. "

"they" duped the Times? To influence Congress? Do you buy that Kool Aid by the 55 gal drum?

geez. Thank God most of the posters aren't hysterical regurgitators.

Not to mention
There is ample evidence to support the claim that Bush had planned on going into Iraq prior to 9/11. 9/11 only gave him a convenient vehicle. One cannot ignore the geopolitical ramifications of the war. Our oil supply has peaked and the world oil supply has or will soon peak. There is evidence that Cheney met in private with oil executives to lay out the distribution of oil for when we invaded Iraq.

This has led us to overextend ourselves through this war. It could lead to our demise as a world power. We do not have an unlimited amount of money to spend on this war. In fact, the debt is so out of control now that we went over there to make sure that oil will continue to be sold in dollars rather than euros or a basket of currencies.

It is simple really. Bush's rhetoric prior to going into the war was to secure support. A vast amount of this support is among christians who adhere to an armegeddon mentality. This comes across in the article. The credulity of the christian right is mind boggling. Now the author resorts to calling James Baker anti-semitic. This type of rhetoric waxes old and is typical of the supporters of this war who believe that it is unpatriotic to be against it. Wars are political.

I am incredulous of the claim that diplomacy doesn't work. The Machiavellian "might makes right" mentality of supporters is giving me a rash. Diplomacy needs to be tried. What is wrong with getting help in solving the problem in Iraq? This was a problem from the start as many countries were against the war. Why should we care what the world thinks about us? Support would have at least eased the burden of paying for the war. I am not advocating diplomacy in every circumstance. Sometimes war is necessary. But diplomacy shouldn't ever be ruled out.

Darvin Dowdy you are delusional
You say its a quagmire because of the Dem's continuous opposition since 2003 and their victory on 11/7.

What evidence do you have to support that statement. Congress has never denied Bush anything he has asked to fight this war in Iraq. Many dems & republicans have pointed out shortcomings but one can hardly call that continuous opposition. Blunders such as:

1) Going to war with out a plan for securing the country after removing Saddam

2) Sending too few troops to secure the country and secure the borders

3) Allowing the numerous militias in the country to keep their arms after Saddam was deposed

4) Disbanding the Iraqi army immediately after Saddam's defeat rather than using it AS THE US MILITARY COMMANDERS REQUESTED to rebuild the country. This sent thousands of ordinary but trained and armed soldiers who depended on their military pay to support their families into the waiting arms of the insurgents.

5) Allowing religious and secular factions of Iraqi society to infiltrate and thoroughly corrupt the police forces and turn them into para military arms of the religious leaders using them for nefarious purposes from the background.

6) refusing to recognize an organized indigenous insurgency existed capable of waging a civil war until it was too late and lying to themselves and the American people about the need to combat it.

6) Repeating over and over the mantra that the only option was to "stay the course" and slandering anyone who offered positive suggestions as "weak on defense" or somehow un-American.

There are many more specific blunders I can cite.

Is it any wonder that the republicans were shown the exit doors in both houses of Congress against overwhelming odds by the American people in the election?

An example of real opposition would be a congressional refusal to fund the war or to authorize the use of force in the first place. Many democrats such as H. Clinton, Lieberman, Joe Biden have consistently been very hawkish on the war. Enlighten me if you can come up with such an example.

Otherwise, you are just repeating nonsensical republican talking points when you say such things without evidence. Discussion and helpful suggestions by elected public officials on how to correct obvious past blunders and avoid future ones is not an example of "continuous opposition". It is a positive contribution, and Bush/Rumsfeld have consistently refused to take input from anyone, including people in his own party. Lindsay Graham, McCain, Warner, have all been shut out, and none of these are anywhere close to democrats.

Perhaps you are thinking of the actions of a single individual you want to cast as the culprit rather than "all dems". I doubt it though. If that were the case you would have just said something like "this person (substitute Murtha or whoever you want) is so powerful they single handedly derailed the combined effort of the administration, our entire military, and the will of the American people in Iraq. But then you would have to explain how they did it without any overt action other than speaking out and you will not be able to come up with a credible story.

Face it. Bush and his fellow travelers are both incompetent and delusional. As I said before he will be harshly judged by history as one of, if not THE, most catastrophic president for American interests abroad ever.


Diplomacy....geez!
Hmmm.....we tried the diplomacy route with Hitler...and we tried, even after many many deaths, to 'diplomacy' the end of the war with Japan. Talking works with maniacal mentalities, hell bent on domination ONLY after you defeat their sorry butts! But in this insane atmosphere, and with an idiot in the White House who's elvated stubborn ignorance into an art form...how could we ever succeed? Do you remember the media or half of this nation, after Pearl Harbor lamenting about what we did to deserve it? Did we ever have a CNN going into Hitler's camp and promoting their warped point of view? We had a population that wasn't totally stigmatized by 'White Guilt,' that made no apologizies for our virtues and way of life and with a clear head and determination, set out to BEAT them. El Jorge is nothing but a woos (sp?) in cowboy boots.

I predict this joke of a President (whom I voted for twice...what was the alternative?) will go down as one of the worst. And not just because of his butchering of the Iraq War, but his allowing the invasion of third worlders and refusal to listen to the SCREAMING of the American people...boy, I wish he'd be impeached.


Mcgraw, Bush is actually WORSE than that
I agree with you that George Bush is a horrible president. But the fact is that he is even worse than you suggest.

Your post implied "half of this nation" was lamenting about what we did to deserve" 9/11. I don't think that is accurate. I remember nearly every one coming together after 9/11 to support whatever needed to be done to get the people who did it and prevent it from occurring again. There was no real opposition to invading Afghanistan, and there still isn't any opposition to our efforts there.

There was no SIGNIFICANT opposition to invading Iraq either when we went in. Sure there were a small number of people who spoke out against it, but they in no way Hrepresented 10% much less half of the American people. And when they spoke out they were despised and immediately shouted down. Remember the Dixie Chicks?

Congress overwhelmingly and with bipartisan support gave Bush and Rumsfeld everything they asked for and pushed them to ask for even more (such as additional armament for soldiers and their vehicles that were not adequately protected for the situation they found themselves in). The NY TIMES - that liberal megaphone for heaven's sake - had Judith Miller on the front page day after day blaring every talking point out of the white house and pentagon on why we HAD to to invade Iraq.

No way this President went to war over the opposition of half the American people.

And we just keep electing dumber and dum
Are they so dumb, or are we for electing them?

We go to war and half the politicians raise he11 if we incur collateral damage. Then they raise he11 when our casualties mount. They raise he11 for us to do something then raise he11 when we do.

Then, stupid on top of stupid, they want to run off and parley with the very people that are fueling the 'insurgency'.

ALL muslims are our enemies. Until the pol's figure that out we will be in deep doo-doo.

raidencraig and "facts"- oh, brother
We were providing arms and advisors to SE Asia
under Eisenhower. Where do you get this stuff, "they said a quick and decisive war . . . ." Geez.

Surely you don't mean artful lies like Dan Rather's? (NYTimes has way to long a list to mention here) You spew about artful lies and defend the MSM / NYTimes fabrication of fact time after time and getting CAUGHT at it? I bet you're joining Mr Rather for koolaid for dinner tonight. An honorable man, he stuck by the story/ies - they were "true in spirit if not in fact", isn't that just special? It just FEEEEEELS right. You think if you like how it sounds and it fits your "worldview" IT MUST BE A FACT?

If we could get the NYTimes, the WPost and ABC/NBC/CBS to tell the ENTIRE truth and let Americans make informed judgments (wups, bad word, judgments), we wouldn't have to pay the price at the voting polls for people placing blame for the crap the MSM cooks up daily (your term)to cover the inadequacies of the liberal party.

"it is WE who have spawned new potential terrorists and animus among the 1 BILLION Islamics by Dubya's tough cowboy adventure in the big sandbox, conceived and engendered by the neoCON Pan-Israeli cabal then infesting his inner circle"

I see - America / Dubya invented and created the terrorists threat - Got it. I coulda sworn terrorism had been going on since BEFORE Dubya. Maybe it was Reagan and the Iranian Hostage situation that invented terrorism? No, the hostages were hostages a day or two days BEFORE Reagan took office - but, oh well, whatever - it had to be the GOP's fault if somebody doesn't LIKE us. I THOUGHT I heard somewhere that terrorism steadily escalated especially during the, um '90's? (see inadequacies, above) starting about 1992 . . . .what election was that? - no, it was a coronation of the King of KoolAid.

Aside from the fact that -
We believed S Hussain was a threat to us (guess he was just a nice guy with no ambitions to hurt the U.S, we just misunderstood him and all that intelligence from our allies) AND we told the world and the Iraqi people we would hang tough with them, they didn't have to be ruled by dictators who torture their athletes when they don't produce gold at the Olympics and who use nerve gas on citizens . . . in our experience Democracy is pretty much better than that, except for the unborn.

Diplomacy - like the 17 times the UN demanded blah blah blah? No time to move weapons, buy explosives, train terrorist groups, stall stall stall . . . .

Congress gave Bush all he wanted ? Well, which is it? Then I guess the Kerry's and the Kennedy's and Pelosi share some responsibility? Where is the outrage for any of the them? No, now it's partisan politiks, out manuvering and outblaming without a shred of responsibility for their OWN past actions and votes. All I hear from the MSM and looney libs is gimme a scape goat to get ME into POWER - I don't have a SINGLE IDEA on how to make it right - I have to be in power TODAY - that's THE SINGLE MOST important thing. And they'll blow smoke and use mirrors and the NYTimes until enough votes can be swung that it must be THE TRUTH regardless of FACT.

Have you heard a single word about what radical Islam believes? You think terrosist attacks are a vendetta for military actions? Economic sanctions? Economic sanctions on the impoverished oil producers of the world . . .hmmm, how can I make somebody believe that one, ey? Do you see what is going on in Europe? How about the election in Spain? One thing for sure is that Islam wants to defeat the Great Satan - I'm pretty certain they want to keep lying politicians, election bribes (ie, North Korea to Saint Al Gore and friends), gay marriage, partial birth abortion on demand, gambling/drug/alcohol addiction, the western entertainment industry and bowing down to the Wall Street altar OUT of their culture, and their religious beliefs firmly in place IN their culture. The big question is the location of that culture. Terrorism is a political tool to shape culture. Their acts of terrorism have shaped our culture. If we don't stop terrorism's success as a solution over there, we will have to meet them right here and all over the western world that doesn't roll over and join Islam. In Iraq, there was pretty much ONE front for the fight, but now it will fan out. If they don't get what they want with diplomacy, then terrorism escalates until diplomacy gets them what they want. Years ago, they wanted the Shah out of Iran and parts of Israel. Terrorism escalated. They got what they wanted. They wanted more of Israel. Then terrorism escalated until diplomacy got them what they wanted. Right now they want a nuclear program in Iran, control of Iraq, western influence out of the ME altogether and an undefended Israel. Terrorism escalated. If they don't get what they want with diplomacy, then . . . or do you believe what they want is to live in peace on earth with good will toward Christians, secularists, Jews, Hindus, and Buddhists? They don't believe they have to settle for peace on earth with the rest of us, but that they can dominate the whole globe.

You're right about one thing, Iraq is disintegrating into disaster. We should only be there to win, not to maintain the chaos. I guess the support the president and the troops received from George Soros, your kind and the NYTimes helped make victory possible in the shortest amount of time, effort, lives and resources. My relatives in the military thank you kindly for your support. Walk up to a Marine home from Iraq and spout your views, please. He can thank you himself. And remember to act like today's problems all occurred just today, and the whining, liberal media has nothing to do with the lack of support and ergo, the lack of success in Iraq. It wasn't perfect to begin with, but it was winable until folks like you and Cindy Sheehan got the most press.

Keep reading the NYTimes and go to ABC/NBC/CNN for your news. Pick up a book on the world situation that covers the fifteen years before Hitler and includes a critique of American attitudes and politics. Raidencraig, if you and those with your invented excuses for fact succeed in the direction the liberals desire for America, you should buy a prayer rug before the rush. You're gonna need it. Napoleon escaped from Elba too, and "ruled" for about 100 more days. Let's hope the Demo-dopes reign of Congress from 2006 - 2008 goes the way of Napoleon's 100 days - disgraced into history, but at least it ends.

Peperment, Bush started out wrong.
Peperment says that she wishes Bush would act like he did imediatly after 9/11. I'm sorry but part of the reason why we are in the perdicament we are in today is because of Bush's failure to set the tone of Total War right after 9/11.

Right off the bat Pres. Bush declared Islam a tolarant peaceful religion that was hijacked by radicals. This couldn't be further from the truth. Islam has always been a intolarant religion bent on conquest and sujecation from it's very founding.

9/11 required a nuclear response against every Islamic country that fosters this Islamic hatred and terror. That means Saudi Arabia and Iran and Syria should have been toast and the oil feilds of the Persian Gulf should have been siezed by the U.S. Marines so the procededs would never again be able to threaten or existance.

Biden's plan for Iraq
slacker:

I took a look at Biden's plan for Iraq. It is short and sweet, and untenable on the face of it. If this plan is workable, then I think it already would have been tried. For instance, it calls for placement of a residual, presumably military force (American, Allied, NATO?)in Iraq to keep the neighbors honest. Any agreement by a conference of all concerned parties (the Middle East and EU and China, Russia, etc.) will most likely not be stabilizing unless Iran is clearly allowed nuclear weapons and a position from which they can and will dominate the Middle East. Any Amerian plan in this direction would be only done as a face-saving way out or to agree to disagree with our enemies for now, but still allow a strong Iranian position for an eventual future battle. The best America can get is a truce that allows Iran to dominate for the time being. The other option for the US is a larger, more committed and military directed war. Apparently, the American people are not going to go for that at this time. Biden's plan is almost absurdist in its capacity to overestimate what siting down with the terrorist states Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia can create by negotiating with them from a position of weakness. Biden's plan is just pie in the sky and, in my opinion, written as a politician's attempt to speak to the public clamor over the lack of a Democrat directed plan; and also, to push Biden's political fortunes. Biden's plan gives people like you cover to attack the Right on the assumption his plan won't actually be read by most people.

By the way, the Dayton plan in the old Yugoslavia is a temporary fix and is not solving any problems, but, indeed exacerbating them. The Islamists are using Bosnia to build an army there and launch their surreptitious plans for building networks of an Islamist army in Europe. Take a look at Debka.com and Memri.org for evidence of this.

To continue: You often speak of the Right not having anything concrete to say, and in fact you see the Right as basing itself on stridency, but you are flat out wrong. You then go on to say that the Democrats have concrete plans and then point out Biden as an example. I'll give you this: it is a plan. But this plan is not at all well thought out. The conservative public, and the general public I might add, talk about the lack of a Democrat plan because there are few of them; and the ones touted are not publicized in the media by Democrats because, for instance, Biden's is a joke.

Your arguments are certainly better than raidencraig's arguments, but sophist nevertheless. I urge all readers here to read your comments and then use your link to Biden's plan on his website. They can judge for themselves how feckless your argumentss are. Indeed, I believe you are just feigning some pursuit of truth, but in fact, I don't think, if this is as good as it gets, you are REALLY, after the truth.

By the way, as I write the last paragragph, I should clarify that it does not mean you, as a Liberal, are any more or less a partisan than conservatives. I welcome your comments, and do indeed learn from them. I do not see you as unremarkable or without good intentions. People on the Right can be just as wrong as people on the Left. I am just saying that you are wrong and, in my opinion, not being truthful to the Townhall community. If you really mean to debate the issues squarely, without rancor to get at the truth of anything, say, the Iraq War, then you will have to be williing to squarely answer a conservative's arguments and not avoid them. But avoiding them is just what I see you doing.

I will take a turn here and write on one more corollary item: The Iraq War problem we are now facing was made by Bush and by an irresponsible opposition on the Leftwing of this country. It is one thing for some Leftwing anti-war movement to drive American policy, and it is another for the Democrat Party to, largely, do so. If the politicians had legitimate arguments for countering Bush, constructive criticism, then that would have been helpful. But what they did is play a divisive game, even if one thinks Bush also played a divisive game, based on innuendo and outright lies. Bush and the Republicans (LARGELY)were the party of projecting American power, even if they did it badly, and the Dems (LARGELY)were the party of appeasement, slander and lible. My sense is that a good, long debate about the details of this conclusion between honest people would lead both debaters to it.

The Iraq War may be reminiscent of the Vietnam War in respect to the failures of American policies based on a feckless Leftwing. The Left gave comfort and aid to the enemy then, and they give comfort and aid to the enemy now. In both cases, they caused failures of American foreign policy which were undermined by the inabilities of the American military to fully prosecute the wars. For example: Muhgtada Al Sadr should have been taken out early on when he had perhaps 1000 irregulars, and marshall law declared, with no Iraqi government established until Iraq was under control. This would have included securing the borders and punishing Syria and Iran for any (ANY) interference, including giving arms and aid to insurgencies in their own countries. It would have included a massive counter-insurgency effort to create a network of informants among insurgents to eviscerate any oppostion to Allied occupation. Maybe in hindsight the Allies could have used the Baathist army for some of this, but certainly not any Baathist leadership.

The Left has a temporary victory of sorts, but not for long as world events outrun their ideology. In the wake of Vietnam were left millions of dead and countless lives ruined and hopes for a brighter future destroyed by the Communists. As a result, no one country stepped into the breach to stop Idi Amin or the killings in Rawanda for no one wanted another Vietnam fiasco. But the communists who took over Cambodia, Laos and South Vietnam were not as bad as the Islamists who have more in league with Nazism. This war is an existential war whereas Vietnam was not.

The Leftwing in the United States has not presented any serious plan to defeat the Islamists and have used baiting tactics to defeat the only plan in motion. I think the American military plan in Iraq might have looked much different except for the Leftwing tactics that made the military constantly bend its plan to Leftwing sensitivities. Ditto Vietnam. Absent the Leftwing backbiting I think the USA would have succeeded in both wars. They still can in this one. What the Leftwing in the USA does have is some fatuous and vague plan of hope that talking will defeat the Islamists. I am not against talking, but I am in favor of strong military initiatives as a necessary part of talking from a winning geo-political position.

I hope and think the American people will sort this out over a period of time and your (slacker's or raidencraig's)star will not be in ascendency any longer. The question is: at that moment, how much weaker will be the US geo-political position than now, how many people will die as a result of the Islamist (which includes Iraq) global jihad, and how many sacrifical lambs the West will give up before we again see the need to be forceful?

Louie
Well said. Thank you.

Louie, on Biden's plan and other things
Yours was a long post, and it is a bit difficult to pick out the main points to respond. I'll give it a shot.

But first, you said I sidestep questions. I do not agree that I do. I may have missed it, but I tried to find a question mark in your post and did not see one. Ask me a question and I will answer it, or tell you I don't know the answer.

In any case I welcome discussion of Biden's plan. It is getting discussed in Washington and elsewhere. Biden has had several conversations with Baker's ISG and it may very well be that we are seeing Bush and others laying the ground work for it now.

But I need to get specific with you. What Biden's plan is about is separating the civil warring factions to give them some time to cool off and the federal govt in Iraq to stabilize the country and gain control over the borders. This is actually the course of least resistance to a large extent. If you look at the patterns and volumes of migration of people within the country, the Iraqi people are moving out of heterogeneous neighborhoods and returning to areas that are ethnically more homogenous in droves. For most Iraqis this is their only hope to live with any security at all. This trend is essentially federalizing the country into semi autonomous regions anyway. By going WITH the flow rather than against it, we maximize our ability to influence events toward a positive outcome for us.

In any case, the current "course" is neither stabilizing the country or protecting the boarders during the current civil war. Something HAS to change. The Bush administration is already starting to talk to other middle eastern countries. That is why he is over there now. He didn't go there to give Maliki the same stale stay the course message over again. Wait and see.

I have said, myself, that I do not agree 100% with Biden's plan as posted in the pdf on his web site. One area of disagreement I have is on the possibilities for implementing it in the time frame he gave. Another is his estimates of the residual troop strength that would be required. If we draw down too fast, your argument that we would be negotiating from weakness could be correct. That is why I think that part of the plan has to be refined. It will be, believe me. The situation has deteriorated so much since he wrote the plan that it HAS to.

The trick in obtaining a political solution is to convince Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and other regional powers that they (a) do not all share the same objectives in either the region or for the Iraq outcome, and (b) have much to loose from NOT stabilizing Iraq. I never said this is a slam-dunk. If we pull it off in the next 2 years it will require all the skill and diplomacy that Condaleeza Rice and Baker can muster. But Rice is a shining star within the Bush administration AND WE HAVE to try it. What is your alternative? You cannot put more troops in. You cannot nuke or carpet bomb the place to eliminate insurgents. You cannot disarm the militias. The police force is corrupt, fully integrated with the militias and can't be trusted. What is your alternative?

You say the Yugo experience is but a temporary lull. Well even if that is so, it is a far better outcome than the civil war that was taking place before the accords. A similar situation in Iraq, should we pull it off, is about the best that can be hoped for in the next year or so. If you don't agree, what outcome DO you propose and HOW do you propose to accomplish it?

I am not going to debate the end of the Vietnam war with you. I don't completely disagree with you but that is another topic. The truth is that there are vast differences between Vietnam and Iraq. Glib comparisons between the two are not obviously valid to me without substantial argumentation, anyway.

You made a point that you
"... think the American military plan in Iraq might have looked much different except for the Leftwing tactics that made the military constantly bend its plan to Leftwing sensitivities."

I have seen no real evidence of that, either in your post or elsewhere. I argue that whether or not there is a quantifiable thing such as "Leftwing sensitivities" they are NOT the cause of the military constantly bending its plans. Bush has never accepted input from people with such sensitivities to my knowledge, and you have not cited an example. MAJOR instances of blunders CAN however be laid directly at the feet of Bush and Rumsfeld with real evidence that is publicly available. I will give one specific example. There are others we can discuss if you wish.

A key early blunder was the decision to disband the Iraqi army after the fall of Baghdad. When Bremer came in the military had already developed their approach for using the troops in the army for reconstruction and realigning it to be a positive force for stabilizing the country. Bremer over-ruled this. The generals appealed to Rumsfeld and Bush. They were over-ruled. This set up the Iraqi troops as a fertile recruiting ground for the insurgents, delayed reconstruction, and set back the restructuring of the Iraqi army by years. You can verify all this by reading "Fiasco". It is all documented in there in the emails and quoted interviews of military commanders. No one to my knowledge has refuted any of their direct quotations in that book.

You say I am not "truthful." I may make mistakes and I will admit them if you can point them out to me. But I am neither disingenuous or dishonest.

I'll conclude for now with the thought that where we agree is that it is crucial to resolve this mess Bush has saddled the US with in the best way possible. There is no partisan value to anyone for the situation to continue to devolve and for Islamic militancy to win additional victories. We need to work together to find an outcome that makes us safer not more vulnerable or one that increases the number of enemies we have.

Hold on
In the absence of communications from Bush as to the next course of action, you are all filling in the blanks. Remember too, the Baker committee was appointed by congress, not Bush. We have no idea of his attitude toward it. We do know that he set up a committee of generals. That report is due. Until reports and info is obtained you are all writing and guessing fruitlessly. Calling President Bush names and questioning his intelligence and resolve only serves to allow for your frustration to be vented. It does not enlighten.

loco, who is calling bush names?
I know I am not. I did say he was a catastrophic president. But this is an opinion site and is not calling him a "name".

I offer my opinion. And yes some speculation.

I agree with you that there is no real evidence that Bush or anyone else is on board with a plan or strategy from the ISG. Nor has the ISG publicly disclosed what it will recommend, if indeed it can really get to a bipartisan recommendation.

I am speculating and offering opinion on what the most likely direction is based on current events.

yes you are speculating
and so are the others but with such surety and self righeousness that what is said takes on the aura of certainty. There is no such thing.

Biden's plan
slacker,

I am a partisan in the sense that a political party represents sets of ideas with which I agree and, not in total agreement, still support as it constitutes the road to political power by which my ideas can be implemented. So, yes, based on what I understand to date, I accept that the Iraq War needs a better plan and that apparently, clear mistakes were made in the past. To the corollary that it could use a better plan, I am not a partisan.

So this means I am open to a different plan; however, I have always been open to a different plan. I have not seen one from the Left, not a coherent plan which I could embrace. As I said in the last rejoinder, the Democrats have not publicized one, and for good reason. They don't really have one. Are there other, serious plans besides Biden's that I should be aware of?

If not, then I think your point about the Democrats having a plan is not quite truthful. Biden has a plan, and not much of one, but the Democrats have so underplayed the idea of an actual plan, that I didn't even hear of it till you brought it up. The Democrats could have touted Biden's plan as their plan before the election, but they didn't. Fact: they didn't get together and tout any plan as their plan in contradistinction to Bush. They didn't even try to do this. Well, Lieberman and a few did, but Lieberman was essentially kicked out from under the Democrat big tent for apostasy on this.

This is what I mean when I say you are not being truthful. The Democrats didn't have a plan and you want to say that they did because Biden had a plan. I find that at least a little disengenuous. The importance of the distinction here is that had the Democrats pursued the Biden plan, then they would have to chance its failure in the public eye and a boost to Bush. If it was a good plan, then why not bring it up earlier as the Democrat's position? How many troops died awaiting the roll-out of such a great plan earlier?

Now, as to the Biden plan. You say a federalist government based on a division of the country into respective cultural enclaves is now a historical imperative and we should just go with the flow; That Sunnis would just get oil revenue via the Shia. But isn't that part of the struggle going on now: who gets the oil revenues? What is different in the Biden plan from such issues now is......nothing. Suddenly Joseph Biden is going to do what the US Ambassador has been trying to do for several years: get agreement on the split of oil revenues! The Biden plan is not a good one and these ideas are not new. If the objective is to depart from the old methodologies, then the Biden plan is just part of the old plan.

As to temporary respites in the Yugo battles, you and I disagree over their usefulness. The enemy is radical Islam--the so-called Islamists--and they are using the respite much better than Nato. The Islamists will come back stronger and harder to dislodge later, with many more casualties and destruction.

The alternative is as I first posted to pursue the enemy vigorously and relentlessly with less restrictive rules of engagement. Shut out Iran from Iraq, close and seal the borders with Syria, and threaten severe retaliation to either of them for interferring in Iraq. Then carry out the threats if necessary. If this takes more American troops, commit them. Declare marshall law in Iraq and create a network of informers. No truce. Just unrelentless capture and kills of enemy leaders. Find good guys and put them in charge of the governmental structure. In fact, devise the governmental structure.

You would be surprised by how many regimes start lining up with America instead of against it.

You know what the problem is: a Leftwing that thinks itself more knowledgeable than the military, and is delusional about the nature of the enemy and pan-nationalist forces and is also delusional about what this Leftwing can accomplish with negotiations and appeasement.

You wanted evidence of this. OK. Al Sadr grew from a few hundred to the 10,000 fighters now, and from a group of irregulars to the trained and equiped army they are now (via Iran) because the US ignored him and allowed him to build up such an army. Dan Senior, Army spokesman in Iraq for a time, has said they had a plan to go after him, but called it off three times. I am guessing here, but I bet the portrayl of the Abu Ghrab scandel in the NY Times had an impact on these decisions. There were some 46 stories of this on the front pages of that newspaper at the time in an attempt by a Liberal newspaper to keep the issue alive to embarass Bush and the military endeavor. They drove the story and the story drove the military planning.

Absent such ridiculousness (a story mostly about making prisoners go naked; even if some prisoners were killed, it is war and an army matter), the military may have nipped Al Sadr's Mehdi Army in the bud. I personally think the military should have gone after him and killed him, rounded up hundreds of known members and sympathizers and created a network of collaborators and informers.

So, in the absence of the lack of public stomach for such things, then we are pretty much hosed as I see it, for now. As I said, we may get a temporary truce, but not without some important concessions to the Islamists. Then we will really see things get out of hand. The American public will maybe feel good for awhile, but not for long.

The obnoxious part of it is that the Left will never take responsibility for the outcome of their intransigence and such things as the outcome of any instituted Biden plan.

I think the course now is for Conservatives and Liberals (in fact, all Americans in theory) to have a dialogue, a sincere one, and hope that we can come to some resolution of the issues.


Biden's plan
slacker,

I am a partisan in the sense that a political party represents sets of ideas with which I agree and, not in total agreement, still support as it constitutes the road to political power by which my ideas can be implemented. So, yes, based on what I understand to date, I accept that the Iraq War needs a better plan and that apparently, clear mistakes were made in the past. To the corollary that it could use a better plan, I am not a partisan.

So this means I am open to a different plan; however, I have always been open to a different plan. I have not seen one from the Left, not a coherent plan which I could embrace. As I said in the last rejoinder, the Democrats have not publicized one, and for good reason. They don't really have one. Are there other, serious plans besides Biden's that I should be aware of?

If not, then I think your point about the Democrats having a plan is not quite truthful. Biden has a plan, and not much of one, but the Democrats have so underplayed the idea of an actual plan, that I didn't even hear of it till you brought it up. The Democrats could have touted Biden's plan as their plan before the election, but they didn't. Fact: they didn't get together and tout any plan as their plan in contradistinction to Bush. They didn't even try to do this. Well, Lieberman and a few did, but Lieberman was essentially kicked out from under the Democrat big tent for apostasy on this.

This is what I mean when I say you are not being truthful. The Democrats didn't have a plan and you want to say that they did because Biden had a plan. I find that at least a little disengenuous. The importance of the distinction here is that had the Democrats pursued the Biden plan, then they would have to chance its failure in the public eye and a boost to Bush. If it was a good plan, then why not bring it up earlier as the Democrat's position? How many troops died awaiting the roll-out of such a great plan earlier?

Now, as to the Biden plan. You say a federalist government based on a division of the country into respective cultural enclaves is now a historical imperative and we should just go with the flow; That Sunnis would just get oil revenue via the Shia. But isn't that part of the struggle going on now: who gets the oil revenues? What is different in the Biden plan from such issues now is......nothing. Suddenly Joseph Biden is going to do what the US Ambassador has been trying to do for several years: get agreement on the split of oil revenues! The Biden plan is not a good one and these ideas are not new. If the objective is to depart from the old methodologies, then the Biden plan is just part of the old plan.

As to temporary respites in the Yugo battles, you and I disagree over their usefulness. The enemy is radical Islam--the so-called Islamists--and they are using the respite much better than Nato. The Islamists will come back stronger and harder to dislodge later, with many more casualties and destruction.

The alternative is as I first posted to pursue the enemy vigorously and relentlessly with less restrictive rules of engagement. Shut out Iran from Iraq, close and seal the borders with Syria, and threaten severe retaliation to either of them for interferring in Iraq. Then carry out the threats if necessary. If this takes more American troops, commit them. Declare marshall law in Iraq and create a network of informers. No truce. Just unrelentless capture and kills of enemy leaders. Find good guys and put them in charge of the governmental structure. In fact, devise the governmental structure.

You would be surprised by how many regimes start lining up with America instead of against it.

You know what the problem is: a Leftwing that thinks itself more knowledgeable than the military, and is delusional about the nature of the enemy and pan-nationalist forces and is also delusional about what this Leftwing can accomplish with negotiations and appeasement.

You wanted evidence of this. OK. Al Sadr grew from a few hundred to the 10,000 fighters now, and from a group of irregulars to the trained and equiped army they are now (via Iran) because the US ignored him and allowed him to build up such an army. Dan Senior, Army spokesman in Iraq for a time, has said they had a plan to go after him, but called it off three times. I am guessing here, but I bet the portrayl of the Abu Ghrab scandel in the NY Times had an impact on these decisions. There were some 46 stories of this on the front pages of that newspaper at the time in an attempt by a Liberal newspaper to keep the issue alive to embarass Bush and the military endeavor. They drove the story and the story drove the military planning.

Absent such ridiculousness (a story mostly about making prisoners go naked; even if some prisoners were killed, it is war and an army matter), the military may have nipped Al Sadr's Mehdi Army in the bud. I personally think the military should have gone after him and killed him, rounded up hundreds of known members and sympathizers and created a network of collaborators and informers.

So, in the absence of the lack of public stomach for such things, then we are pretty much hosed as I see it, for now. As I said, we may get a temporary truce, but not without some important concessions to the Islamists. Then we will really see things get out of hand. The American public will maybe feel good for awhile, but not for long.

The obnoxious part of it is that the Left will never take responsibility for the outcome of their intransigence and such things as the outcome of any instituted Biden plan.

I think the course now is for Conservatives and Liberals (in fact, all Americans in theory) to have a dialogue, a sincere one, and hope that we can come to some resolution of the issues.


Louie, Louie, Biden's plan and more
Well, the Dems DID put out Bidens plan just prior to the election to gain some publicity for it.

http://biden.senate.gov/newsroom/details.cfm?id=264909&

was issued in October harking back to Biden's plan from back in May or so. The press release was then hyped again in the NY Times and I assume other papers say "yes there is a democrat plan" you can feel safe in voting for a democrat. You may have missed this in October if you aren't following the moderate to liberal media. Biden has also been on meet the press at least 3 or 4 times since May, each time hyping his plan. He was on Bill O'Reilly at least once hyping his plan. In fact Bill O'Reilly has publicly stated that he favors Biden's plan.

A week or two ago there was another article in the NY Times describing the fact that Biden was invited to present his plan to the Baker ISG. Baker was on TV a while ago (can't remember the show maybe face the nation) and he said there and was quoted in the press that he was aware of it but was not pushing it himself at the moment.

So you and I disagree to what extent Biden and others have been promoting and publicizing this plan. I happen to be a fan of Biden, so I will admit to being more aware than many conservatives about it. But it is not right to say it has been intentionally underplayed.

I will agree with you this far. The democratic party is not unified behind this plan. In democrat terms Biden is a hawk, like Lieberman and H. Clinton. Getting democrats prior to the election and even at this point to all sing from the same hymnbook is too much to ask. There are still vast differences between blue dogs like me and the left wing of the party (Murtha for example) and its fair to acknowledge them.

But this is no different than in the republican party. There is a lot of daylight between say McCain, Lindsay Graham, and perhaps others like Warner and Hutchinson and George Bush, Rick Santorum or George Allen. Some right wing republicans go so far as to say that Graham and McCain are RINOs (some of my republican friends have a particular sneering way of saying that word) and should leave the party and become "dimmocrats" like me.

Anyway what's different in Biden's plan that will be different from what's going on now is that if you can cool off the hot civil war going on now you it should be possible to do some of the things you will agree need to be done, like seal the borders, etc. Adding more troops to do that is out of the question. The military doesn't doesn't want significantly more troops in Iraq, so you need to cool off the civil war and do it with the troops you have.

I agree with you that the administration allowed Sadr to build his militia up. I fault the administration for allowing that, not the MSM because of Abu Ghraib or things you speculate about. The root of that mistake is in the agreement that Bush and Rumsfeld made with the Kurds not to disarm them after the fall of Baghdad to cement their support for the coalition in the early phases of the war. Once they had given that commitment to the Kurds the rioting happened. Due to lack of troop strength we could not secure the country. All other indigenous factions lost trust in the US to protect them and establish order. Bremer disbanded the army without confiscating their arms. It quickly became impossible to disarm the growing number of shia and sunni militias who demanded the same rights as the kurds to keep arms. Especially since there was no police force at the time to keep order.

You can't blame all this on the MSM and liberals. There is no way our military is so stupid and week to be whipped back and forth and make such incredibly stupid decisions because of some article in the NY Times or on CNN. I have much more faith in the professionlism of our military commanders than that. No. The blame lies right at the feet of this administration.

Biden plan
slacker,

My point about the New York Times is that it is an example of the kind of stories in the press that drove the population to re-evaluate the war and this, in turn, created the pressure on the military. Yes, one story is not going to drive military strategists, planners and line troops, but an accumulation of them will. Not to mention the Internet and Leftwing activist groups with money like Moveon.org.

So it is your contention that Bush and his administration just mishandled the Iraq War, which was, as you see it, a winnable war?

Do you see a strategy on the part of Bush and the Pentagon? What do you think that strategy is? Has it changed over time? If so, what has it morphed from and into?


A Sign
If there were any further proof that this administration were out of ideas and plans, it can be summed up in two words: James Baker.
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