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Tuesday, July 22, 2008
Ed Feulner :: Townhall.com Columnist
Constitutional Confusion
by Ed Feulner
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Every president, every senator, every member of Congress and every Supreme Court justice takes an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States.

The way some of them behave, though, you have to wonder if they’ve ever read it.

The Constitution is clear and understandable. It gives Congress, the legislative branch, the responsibility of passing our laws. It gives the president, head of the executive branch, the responsibility of enforcing those laws. And it gives the courts, headed by the Supreme Court, the responsibility of interpreting them.

Yet in recent years, leaders of all three branches have expressed confusing -- and incorrect -- ideas about the Constitution.

Take the members of Congress who filed a brief with the Supreme Court urging it to strike down Washington, D.C.’s gun ban. Fortunately, the Court agreed. But Congress had the power to defend D.C. residents’ gun rights all along.

Congress could have passed a law at any time removing the unconstitutional restrictions on gun ownership in the District. But it didn’t. Now, as the D.C. city council considers new legislation to restrict gun rights, Congress continues to be silent, again leaving the question to the courts -- when members have a duty to protect the Constitution, and the rights of D.C. residents as well.

Of course, the judicial branch is hardly blameless.

Courts frequently overstep their bounds, creating law rather than merely interpreting it. There are many examples, but one case proves the point. During its 2004 term, the Supreme Court ruled that detainees at Guantanamo Bay -- enemy combatants captured on foreign battlefields -- had the statutory right to file habeas corpus petitions in U.S. federal courts. It was a new right for enemy combatants.

Congress changed that. It passed the Detainee Treatment Act, which said, in part, “no court, justice or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider” applications on behalf of Guantanamo detainees. That’s crystal clear -- lawmakers wanted to ensure detainees wouldn’t be able to tie up federal courts with endless habeas lawsuits.

Then, in 2006, the Court decided another detainee case, this time finding that the president needed express authorization from Congress to establish military commissions. Congress took them up on this offer by passing the Military Commissions Act (MCA), and made it even clearer that the Courts are not authorized to hear habeas claims from Guantanamo.

Now the Supreme Court has moved the goalposts again. This year it decided, by a 5-4 margin, that the procedures Congress established (which the Court advocated for earlier) were inadequate and that the MCA was unconstitutional. Chief Justice John Roberts dissented. He wrote that the majority opinion was really about “control of federal policy regarding enemy combatants,” and that’s certainly correct. Here, the court is setting policy that should be -- and in fact had been -- set by Congress.

Finally, there’s the executive branch.

In 2002, President Bush signed the McCain-Feingold campaign-finance reform bill. Even as he did so, he noted, “I also have reservations about the constitutionality of the broad ban on issue advertising.” Yet, Bush added, “I expect that the courts will resolve these legitimate legal questions as appropriate under the law.”

But that’s the wrong approach. Upon inauguration, a president swears to uphold the Constitution. If he thinks a bill is unconstitutional, he is duty bound to veto it, not kick it down the road for the courts to rule on. And as it turned out, the courts allowed the questionable provisions to stand, so now they’ll be harder than ever to fix.

Members of all three branches of our government should do some light reading this summer, and refresh themselves on their proper roles. After all, you can’t uphold what you don’t understand.

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About The Author
Dr. Edwin Feulner is president of The Heritage Foundation, a Townhall.com Gold Partner, and co-author of Getting America Right: The True Conservative Values Our Nation Needs Today .
 
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What to do...
The American system of government has elections every two years for Representatives, every four for President and every six for Senators. I have wondered aloud of late, what would happen if someone decided to file the necessary papers and run against some of the 'elite' in our country. What if the local business owner, cop or farmer decided to run for Ted Kennedy's position in Mass.? How would the populace respond to an honest, hard working American trying to overthrow the 'royal family?' What if that person were to stand up for principle in every speech, and to defend liberty and honesty and morality? What if that person didn't mince words? What if it happened all across America?

Now that is something that would be fun to watch... and would be the right thing to do. Not 'armed revolt' not veiled or anonymous internet threats, not boycotting elections... No, find a good honest American, a regular Joe, and send him to Washington. And watch the screaming and wailing begin! It would be the best show in town!

Then, and only then, will the Constitution reign supreme in our nation. Then, and only then, will the Executive, Legislative and Judicial branches of government return to their Constitutionally established roles.

Of course, that might mean some of us not getting funding for our 'pet projects.' It might mean not funding schools and public streets from the national slush funds. It might even mean privatization of Social Security and the elimination of the Welfare State in America... And I am not sure Americans would vote for those principled positions.

Congress
Congress is totally ineffectual, the two major parties are so busy trying to make the other look bad even if one party comes up with a solution to an issue the other party will stand in the way of the solution getting implemented as to prevent the originating party from getting the credit. Both parties are also guilty of not passing meaning full legislation in fear of alienating voters, the end result is the Congress you have today!

guilty of treason??
"Name one Japanese American citizen found guilty of treason."

Interesting as the discussion started as sabotage and espionage...that being proved you move the standard to treason. Tokyo Rose and Kawakita are the more well known Japanese Americans convicted of treason...but they have nothing to do with this...less than 30 treason convictions have even occurred in US history

Liberals obviously
believe the Constitution is a document which can be contorted to fit whatever position benefits themselves at any given time.

It's a power grab...
All three branches on the government continually violate their oaths and the constitution. It's not the job of any branch to amend the constitution. That's the people's job. When's the last time any, and I mean any, politician in Washington suggested amending the constituion? If it's so outdated, why not put forth amendments to the people? You know the one's with the power to change it. Of course, if they do that, then the people get to decide and not the elites in Washington.

The only recourse the people have is to throw the traitors out. But, we the sheeple are stupid and we keep electing career traitors time after time. We deserve the butt shafting we're getting.


The Supreme Court
Has not changed anything concerning the detainees at Gitmo but one.

Access to civilian courts.

By Lt. Col. Gordon Cucullu

This decision deals more with process, a senior Justice official explained.

It does not in any way affect the president’s ability to confine these enemy combatants to Guantanamo and in no manner does the decision imply or state that closure of the facility is necessary or desirable.

Nor, the point was made, does the decision necessarily have an impact on most of the detainees.

Only those who are being charged with war crimes, capital offenses, or offenses that could result in lengthy confinement beyond the conclusion of the war are affected by the decision.



I Agreed With The Article....
until the last paragragh.

The solution to this is to suggest Congress should read up on the Constitution??
They could care less. Example have to be made. A good one to start with is the D.C. gun ban and the council who chose to ignore the ruling of the court.
Now I don't know about you but I can be fairly certain if my butt were hauled into court for something and the judge says this is what you are to do...pay your traffic fines and lose your liscence for ninety days and I upon returning home said ya know what, the judge don't know nothin', I think I'll make my own decision. Don't pay the fines and drive. I think I would have a warrant in no time.

This would be a fine time for a test of this nature. If the government can't uphold the law on these councils and sanctuary cities and illegal aliens and judges that egregiously break the law and not to mention themselves then why should we be held to a higher standard. What will it take to wake these losers up? Tell them to read up on it? Duh. Gonna take more action than that.

From now on I don't need no stinkin' permit to carry concealed weapons of any kind. I don't need no drivers license nor hunting license. Do not have to obey traffic laws of anykind. and so on. Signed, anarchy

Please do not give up
AyaRavaTaja - 4:16 PM EST
Our laws are absolutely meaningless and arbitrarily applied. It doesn't matter anymore.

Wow! Do I sound hopeless? Yeah, I guess I do
===
ts:
You are right
The US Constitution has been shredded by morons like bryce and unsighful.
Why give it up to them?
Please, lets fight their lies

No question about it
You are an intentional liar.
=====

bryce Location: MI
Reply # 140
Date: Jul 22, 2008 - 3:19 PM EST
Talent
Despite your assertions otherwise, this is not a military junta. Military law, like all US law is subject to Constitutional review.

Also, the military Judge presiding over Hamdm has sided with my argument regarding due process.

Is he also moron as you state I am?

=====
ts:
No one has came close to saying "WE' are a military junta.

I am not under Martial Law as the detainees are.

If the presiding Military Officer has found a man innocent, then there is no problem for anyone.
As the Military is the one who has the right to try the detainees at Gitmo.
Not a civil court, moron.

Constitution / Schmonstitution
Anyone who still thinks we are living in a constitutional republic, or that our rulers are bound in any meaningful way by the constitution, is delusional. Our laws are absolutely meaningless and arbitrarily applied. It doesn't matter anymore.

Wow! Do I sound hopeless? Yeah, I guess I do.

Talent
Despite your assertions otherwise, this is not a military junta. Military law, like all US law is subject to Constitutional review.

Also, the military Judge presiding over Hamdm has sided with my argument regarding due process.

Is he also moron as you state I am?


Limited to specific case law
Constitutional Powers of SCOTUS
'The judicial power shall extend to all cases in Law and Equity, arising under the Constitution, the laws of the United States, and the treaties made, or which shall be made, under their authority.'
====
To judge the particular case that they have been given jurisdiction over.
They have no jurisdiction over USMCJ.
The past policies of using the US Military for Policemen has blurred the distinctions.

They do not operate under the same laws, nor court system


Supreme Court has no power to take power away from the US Congress.

The US Military has been giving the Gitmo detainees fair trials under the rules set by the one power of government to make the rules.

The US Congress
Article I

Section 1. All legislative powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives

To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

The Military is not under the civil courts

Talent
Capture and detention are two very different things.

Laws outlining detention procedures must meet Constitutional muster.

What the Supreme Court has done in deed
Is to declare Article 1 Section 8 as Unconstitutional.

Article I

Section 1. All legislative powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.

Section 8

.... offenses against the law of nations;

.... make rules concerning captures on land and water;

Constitutional Powers of SCOTUS
'The judicial power shall extend to all cases in Law and Equity, arising under the Constitution, the laws of the United States, and the treaties made, or which shall be made, under their authority.'

Art III Sec 2.

Like it or not, the SCOTUS is the final arbritar of the Constitutionality of all laws, civil or military.

And once again, the military Judge presiding over the Hamdm case has already thrown out prosecution evidence because it was obtained through coercion, a violation of basic due process protections.

Almost got it
Caliber 45 writes:

Talent Scout, you are saying it is a right of the American people only because it says so in the Constitution.
====
Not exactly right though.
I am not saying my rights come from the Constitution at all.

I am saying my Rights come from my Creator as it says in the D of I.

And the Constitution just recognized my rights from the Creator

United States Constitution
The United States Constitution, is the safe gard and legal protection, of every citizen! More frequently, it has been abridged by divested self interest political structures, and lobbiests!Our treaties and agreements, more than once has surplanted citizen rights! Roosevelt's dream, of the United Nations. Has become a reality nightmare. Adding to the confusion of our Supreme Court decisions. And the misuse of the legal annals of government!
Yet, wherever our Military is located. That, is where the seat of our Government power resides!

The United States Constitution
The United States Constitution, is the safe gard and legal protection, of every citizen! More frequently, it has been abridged by divested self interest political structures, and lobbiests!Our treaties and agreements, more than once has surplanted citizen rights! Roosevelt's dream, of the United Nations. Has become a reality nightmare. Adding to the confusion of our Supreme Court decisions. And the misuse of the legal annals of government!
Yet, wherever our Military is located. That, is where the seat of our Government power resides!

Insighting and Talent Scout:
I think your argument is not over what the Courts can do but what an inalienable right is.

Insighting, you are saying it is a right of all people everywhere if it is a right at all.

Talent Scout, you are saying it is a right of the American people only because it says so in the Constitution.

I tend to agree more with Talent Scout for one reason: The rights exist for all people BUT ONLY IF THEY TAKE AND USE THEM. In most countries the people allow only the monarch, the dictator, the president, or whatever they want to call him to have those rights and the power that goes with them. In the United States, the people reserved those rights to themselves in the Constitution.

Therefore the Courts here cannot grant those rights to other in other countries because those people gave them away. Nor can Congress give those people those rights unless they declare war on the rulers of those countries and have the military go in and free the people.

We've tried to do just that in Iraq. However many of those in Iraq do not understand those rights and still depend upon their leaders to give them rights rather than simply telling their leaders to leave them alone. Until all do understand, we should simply make sure our government understands and leaves our rights alone. Even if it is necessary to replace them with those that do understand.

I owe sightless a thank you
You have provided the perfect back ground to bring the truth to light.

Light shines best in darkness, and the darkness of your mind has made the light of truth, I bring, shine brighter than the sun against the back ground of your black holed ignorance


The Court is REQUIRED
To Swear an Oath to the US Constitution.
The written US Constitution.
If they are NOT required to uphold the US Constitution why are they required to swear an oath to it?

The duty of the Court is CLEAR.
To Judge the Facts of a particular case brought before them that addresses the facts of this one case, SINGULAR CASE.

No where is the Court assigned the duty to define the US Constitution itself.

Only to judge a particular case before them as the trier of facts as the facts pertain to the specific case they are to hear.

Thats it.
Congress is the one who decides what is Constitutional and what is not.

And the ones granted the power as the direct link to the PEOPLE.
Who are the true rulers of the US Government and we the people decide through our Congress what is Constitutional.
Not any judge

"we the people"
Through OUR Elected Representatives.

This is the proper method to determine what is Constitutional.
Not some damn judge



One Real Question On this Topic
The main question is: Who said they wanted to uphold the Constitution in the first place? Most of Congress, most judges, and probably the President will tell you that the Constitution is outdated, that most of it no longer applies since the values have changed since it was written. The Liberals are particularly of this mind-set. They want everything decided by the courts based on world opinion and public opinions of that day.

talent scout:
No, I don't. You imbue the Court with far more power than I do.

You seem to view the Supreme Court as final arbiters of constitutionality. They are not.

You seem to equate legislation with law. They are not the same.

You seem to think the president can willy-nilly re-define words. He cannot.

I am not ignoring precedent. You are picking and choosing that which conforms to your skewed belief systems and gives you succor from your inordinate fear of terrorists.

You need to grow a little backbone. It isn't healthy to let your fears consume your life.

Human Rights 101
The Foundation of Human Rights is:
"EQUAL PROTECTION OF THE LAW"


To ensure human rights are equal"
You must have:
"EQUAL ENFORCEMENT OF THE LAW"


You cannot possibly have equal rights for all human beings, without, the BALANCE OF, .....EQUAL ENFORCEMENT OF THE LAW.

American Civil Authorities cannot enforce the law in any nation on this planet but America.

If they cannot enforce the law equally in another country, they CANNOT GIVE EQUAL PROTECTION OF THE LAW to foreigners.

The LAW the people in Gitmo were arrested under was Military Law.
Not Civil Law.
Under Martial Law, the rules are made by Congress.
PERIOD!


Article 1
Section 8
To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;



Maybe it really is just confusion
That is your problem and not intentional lying like bryce is here to do.


InsightingTruth writes: 1:15 PM EST
talent scout:
No, I do not see the Court as above the law.
=====
ts:
Yes you do
You ignore Article 1 completely.
You ignore all past decisions by the Court itself.
You ignore the process of law making called "due process" by legislation.
Not decree.
Decrees are made by Kings and Queens, people above the Law.
And is how you see the 5 men who issued an unlawful decree granting habeas corpus to enemy combatants for the first time in the history of America and the world.

If this is not a decree, nothing is a decree they want to say, and can say anything they want to and its the "law" in your confused mind.



talent scout:
You are arguing with yourself. You are not even addressing anything that I have said.

Morons have creation powers
Like sightless, he has the power to ignore the Law, the Constitution and Congressional Duty as defined by the Constitution.

He has the power to be dumb, foolish, ignorant and become a piece of work that is worthless.

Article III

Section 1. The judicial power of the United States

Is as clear as it can be made.

As is Article 1

Article I

Section 1. All legislative powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States,

This is Congressional Duty

Its clear
Section 8
To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

Restoring Constitutional self-government
to our nation is going to require an understanding of how we are losing it. The problem is a two party system that has duped the people into believing that each party is a check on the other. The Constitution mentions no party, only branches of government.

The three branches were to be a check upon each other, but the parties are so concerned about keeping power among themselves that they have allowed partisanship to replace leadership and critical thinking. The Constitution is now only used as a sound bite at appropriate TV momnents and neither party has done anything other than seek to accrue ever more power.

The answer is to elect a President not from either party, one loyal to the people and the Constitution. We must start right at the top and bring down the elites by denying them the Presidency. A vote for either party is a traitorous vote that will only give us more big government, declining personal freedoms, and more influence to the internationalist cabal that hates America.

If you want to see how the elites have duped the people, visit my website, JOEOLIVAFORPRESIDENT.ORG, and you will find detailed explanations of how the two majors have robbed us of our birthright and inheritance. In addition, if you don't like my positions on the issues, you will find links to 20+ Independent candidates who have websites you can explore.

Check it out, why not? The elites have stolen our inheritance! When exactly are we going to stop trusting them, stop giving them more power, and actually vote to reclaim that inheritance? Thanks, Joe

talent scout:
No, I do not see the Court as above the law.

ts, humans have right, inalienable rights, by virtue of being born human. It has nothing to do with constitutions, or jurisdictions, or branches of government.

In the case you are talking about the Court has not created a right. They have respected a right that the humans in question all ready have. Can you truly not see that?

Here is the specific law

Vested in a Congress


US Constitution

Article I

Section 1. All legislative powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.

To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

For the confused people like insightless Article III is about the Supreme Court and its Duty.


This is the Law, and addressed as Congressional Power
To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

The Supreme Court is not mentioned in Article 1

But here
Article III

Section 1. The judicial power of the United States......


talent scout:
You are truly a piece of work.

If you believed this
InsightingTruth - 12:52 PM EST
Subject: talent scout:
Why is it "truthless" when I state the courts cannot create nor destroy inalienable rights, but it is "truth" when you say the same thing?

Can you explain that?
====
You would not be supporting the court creating a right out of thin air that foreign military combatants have a "right" to a civil court.

Its unheard of

You see the Court as above the Constitution and the Law.

Rich:
Exactly what is your point? Besides you, who is writing about their beliefs and feelings?

You did make your point

No one believes you know diddly squat.
You lie and bryce swears to your lies.

=====

InsightingTruthless writes: - 12:38 PM EST
Subject: talent scout:
Your 12:25 post is just silly. The point that I've been .....making is I am a moron
===
ts:


You have made your point very well

talent scout:
Why is it "truthless" when I state the courts cannot create nor destroy inalienable rights, but it is "truth" when you say the same thing?

Can you explain that?

talent scout:
Your 12:25 post is just silly. The point that I've been trying to get across to you is legislation does not equal law. Too believe otherwise is to believe in the infallibility of legislators. Do you believe that legislators are infallible?

It is a matter of definition.
Declaring war on "terror" skews the word war, but does not change its meaning in reality. Calling someone an "enemy combatant" does not necessarily make him one.

The present administration is playing word games. War cannot be waged against a tactic. There is a better way to handle the threat of terrorism, I think we should try a tactic other than the blanket denial of inalienable rights.

Nor to create them
InsightingTruthless writes: - 12:13 PM EST
Rich:
You are wrong. The Court has not the power to create or destroy an inalienable right.
=====
ts:
The Court is created to judge written law.
Thats all there is to why the courts were created.
They cannot create inalienable rights, nor destroy them.

Its way above their heads to do either.
Read the Declaration of Independence


American Sweetheart
Completely agree. This is the outcome of a public education system which does not teach the Constitution and I mean what it really means...not how someone believes things are or should be. Our children are not being taught to critically think and act.

That aside, in reading many posts, I'm struck by too many assertions that are not based in the Constitution. They seem to derive from the different posters' beliefs, feelings, and understanding. When we resort to these, we lose sight of the foundation of this nation--the one document written by men wiser than anyone I've heard today--and the principles which are intended to guide us as a nation.

You may believe that the govt should provide a certain function, or that some aspect of the govt should be changed. No one can/should ever limit a person's beliefs. However, there is a process to enact these changes--it was written into the Constitution as the amendment process. This allowed for changes to the govt, designed to prevent tyranny by a few over the many (such as we are seeing w/the SCOTUS).




Who is charged to pass law?
Read bryce and insightingtruthless and you will see they believe the civil courts do.


For the first time in the history
Of the world, enemy combatants, military forces from foreign nations are granted a right to a civil court house.

There is no precedence in the law in any nation on earth in the history of the world for such a decision by just 5 people.

No one here who can type the words Declaration of Independence or US Constitution can change the facts.
But they try with a passion in support of terrorists.



Rich:
You are wrong. The Court has not the power to create or destroy an inalienable right.

Judiciary Branch is out of control...
The Court was designed by our Founding Fathers to be the LEAST powerful branch of government. There job is CLEARLY defined as making sure that laws are allowed based on the constitution.

So where do people like former Judge Sandra Day O'Connor get off interpretting OUR laws based on foreign laws? They are hunting and picking until they find a country whom has a law that agrees with what they want the outcome to be and then claim that it is "a global concensus."

Our country was designed to give power to the people and keep the government limited. The government is now controlling almost everything. We are on the brink of becoming a Marxist society. We need everyone in this country to stand up and take this country BACK.

Back to basics people. Constitution 101 is now in session!

talent scout:
Seriously ts, I may be a moron, but you don't know me well enough to make that judgement. You tend to bog yourself down with irrelevancies, and then fume at those who try to bring you back to the root of the issue. Free your mind, and open your eyes, then perhaps the larger picture will come into focus.

It sometimes seem that all you want to do is fight with people. I don't mind considering your point of view. Why do you find it so difficult to consider the points of views of other?

You are off-topic
The case of American citizens of Japanese descent is not in any way comparable to that of enemy combatant detainees.

What you are missing in this is that never in our history--or in any other nation's history--have enemy combatants been afforded access to the civil legal process (i.e. habeas corpus, in this case). German POWs from WWII, many of whom were actually brought to the US and kept in detention facilities here, were not afforded the protections of the Constitution. Even in the US Civil War enemy combatants detained from combat were not entitled to access to the civil/criminal court system--there was no habeas corpus for those combatants. The key words, as some here have stated, are "combatant" and "combat situation".

The SCOTUS created a "right" where none previously existed. This defies all logic.

Talent
It would seem you believe that the military should be able to operate as a junta, but the simple fact is that military is still US law and as such subject to basic Constitutional protections.

And guess what? The military Judge presiding over Hamdm agrees with me on this. What did he do on the very first day of trial? He threw out prosecution evidence because it had been obtained under coercion.

Read my post. What have I repeatedly listed as a central flaw to the detainee laws...evidence obtained through coercion.

So is this military Judge in league with me to bring down our country as you assert?


talent scout:
Truthfully ts, the first five paragraphs of your 11:33 post are more descriptive of you than they are of Bryce. He, Bryce, actually grasps the meaning and intent of the Declaration of Independence, and the U.S. Constitution. You just repeat what others have told you.

When you state, "Only Congress and the President have the power to determine the status of a foreigner, combatant or citizen." you are abjuring your responsibility to think for yourself. The President and Congressmen are mere humans. They are not special. You are their equal in every way. It is you, and Bryce, and Vic, and MP, and I, who are the final arbiters of the status of individuals.

Instead of getting mad, stop and think about the points others are trying to make. Bits of wisdom may be found in many different places.

Germans and Italians included
Time Line:


December 7, 1941
Japan bombed Pearl Harbor.
A blanket presidential warrant authorized U.S. Attorney General Francis Biddle to have the FBI arrest a predetermined number of "dangerous enemy aliens," including German, Italian, and Japanese nationals. 737 Japanese Americans arrested by the end of the day.


January 29, 1942
Attorney General Francis Biddle began the establishment of prohibited zones forbidden to all enemy aliens. German, Italian, and Japanese aliens were ordered to leave San Francisco waterfront areas.

February 4, 1942
The U.S. Army established 12 "restricted areas" in which enemy aliens were restricted by a 9 p.m. to 6 a.m. curfew, allowed to travel only to and from work, and not more than 5 miles from their home.

February 19, 1942
President Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9066, authorizing the secretary of war to define military areas "from which any or all persons may be excluded as deemed necessary or desirable."

March 2, 1942
General DeWitt issued Public Proclamation No. 1, creating military areas in Washington, Oregon, California, and parts of Arizona and declaring the right to remove German, Italian, and Japanese aliens and anyone of "Japanese Ancestry" living in Military Areas No. 1 and 2 should it become necessary

Truth matters

A baby cries
InsightingTruthless writes: - 11:17 AM EST
Subject: talent scout:
When in doubt, shout. Calling people names does not strengthen your argument.
===

ts:
If I lied and said you were brilliant would that be name calling too?

I name you a moron cause you are a moron.
This is not name calling.
This is identifying you as you are

If a person does not or will not
Debate an issue in GOOD FAITH.
He fills his arguments with anything and everything to obstruct fact finding.

This comes from an agenda and not Good Faith.
If a person has an agenda he promotes regardless of the facts, he is a propagandist.
Which is intentional obstruction of facts and truth.

bryce is an agendist, and no facts matters to him as he is here to distort any clear fact into the muddy atmosphere his mind is filled with.

He is full of confusion, an intentional propagandist for terrorists.
Against America and he is for the terrorists.

He supports them in every post over America, the President and Congress and especially the US Constitution.

Only Congress and the President have the power to determine the status of a foreigner, combatant or citizen.

Critical differences are made in Law and Order for Criminal Justice and Military Justice.
Civil Courts are created.
Created to address Criminal Law.
United States Military Code of Justice is Created to handle Military Justice.
Congress is the only Constitutional Power to Create the rules for the US Military.

Any one who does not accept this does not accept the US Constitution.

Like the terrorists and all their supporters, bryce being just one.

The internet allows anyone here and use any screen name they choose to post, but their agenda is clear by the lies they use to oppose the Law of the Land.
The US Constitution

Arguing for the sake of argument
The 14th Amendment guarantees equal protection. In what regard did the internment decree provide equal protection for Americans of Japanese descent?

talent scout
MP is right about one thing. "he is not a fact finder".

He and "facts" do not get along.

talent scout:
When in doubt, shout. Calling people names does not strengthen your argument.

bryce writes from his mosque:


10:59 AM EST
Talent take a deep breath
====
ts:
Look at this nonsense he takes time to type.



====
bryce writes from his mosque:

How can the internment be Constitional including the 14th, as you assert, when millions of citizens of German and Italian descent were allowed to live in the restricted areas?
=====
ts:
First off the Constitution has nothing in it about nation of origin.
Secondly both German and Italian Citizens were also under the very same Martial Law.
You are the problem with your intentional lying, ignorance of the history, and support for terrorists.


Olf Democrap Saying
A LIE is a terrible thing to waste.

What we need is a dictionary
So some of these people like bryce and the blind man "insightingnothing" can communicate in the English language.

Concerning insighting nothing this applies:

Moron may refer to:(disambiguation)

* Moron , a psychology-related term for a person with a genetically determined mental age between 8 and 12

For bryce this applies:

liar

noun

One who tells lies: fabricator, fabulist, falsifier, fibber, prevaricator perjurer

Yes, isn't it terrible that some of us
know the law and can read case history. Isn't it terrible that some us do not believe lies even though they are repeated often and loudly.

Talent take a deep breath
How can the internment be Constitional including the 14th, as you assert, when millions of citizens of German and Italian descent were allowed to live in the restricted areas?

They are after all,--LAWYERS
I have never had a Good Experience that involved Lawyers. Thomas Jefferson said something to the Effect that lawyers were evil/useless/leeches on Society, etc. This was paraphrased by "Johnny Fever" on "WKRP in Cincinnati." 'All the lawyers should Die Very Soon!' Anyone who is worried about the Civil Rights of Islamic Jihadists, should Donate all of his Wealth and Substance to CAIR, or their Hidden Parent Group, The Islamic Brotherhood, Move to Afghanistan, and Join the Jihad!! We don't Need those Liberal Weenies Here. When we all have to Bow to Mecca, the Liberal left will be the first ones to be terminated, because their Secular Prog. agenda is Anathema to Islam.

Tinsley did make a good post
InsightingTruth writes:- 10:13 AM EST
Tinsley:
Great post! I can't count the times I've tried to explain that concept to the posters here.

====
You are the moron who does not get it

Vic
If GITMO is not a US territory then it is sovereign Cuban soil, and Cuban law or the Geneva convention would apply.

On voter ID, I challenge you to cite a single case of voter fraud at the polls. The only proven cases have been in the absentee ballot system, which the Indiana law explicitly exempts.

And yes, when crafting laws that place restrictions on the excercise of the fundamental right to vote, it is indeed contingent on the state to establish harm.

MP:
I fear you are wasting your time. I have had similar exchanges with both Vic & talent scout in the past. They are not programed to receive.

MP
Read the case if you can read.

Proof this guy bryce, is an intentional
Obstructionist,this can be seen in these two posts.
Take a look at this, and see how obvious it is he is not here to debate in GOOD Faith, only to lie and distort the truth.


I write this post pointing out how the 14th amendment was part of the Constitution in 1944, as it had been added in 1868 at 3:55 AM

bryce posts at 4:07 with this statement:

"Uhh...Talent
The 14th Amendment was in place prior to the internment." says bryce

Immediately after I just pointed this very fact out.
Saying as clearly as can be said the 14th A was added in 1868, LONG before 1944 should BE OBVIOUS.

lol, and of course is,1868 came before 1944 and he intentionally ignored it to act like he has some needed point to make.
He is an intentional liar.


This man is an intentional liar, and is not here in good faith.
=========

3:55 AM
talent scout Location: CO
Reply # 65
Date: Jul 22, 2008 - 3:55 AM EST
Subject: 14th amendment added in 1868
This was decided in 1944




4:07 AM
bryce Location: MI
Reply # 67
Date: Jul 22, 2008 - 4:07 AM EST
Subject: Uhh...Talent
The 14th Amendment was in place prior to the internment.



talent scout Location: CO
Reply # 65
Date: Jul 22, 2008 - 3:55 AM EST
Subject: 14th amendment added in 1868
This was decided in 1944

Vic
If you have a pertinent qoute, then the is upon you to present it for consideration. I am not your fact finder. And please, refrain from namecalling; it is so unbecoming.

gahotdog:
You are making the same mistake as Joycey. Terror and Islam are things. One cannot wage war against things. War can only be waged against people. Muslims and terrorists are people, while many terrorists are Muslims, not all Muslims are terrorists.

Bryce
Well, there are 4 current SCOTUS judges who disagree with you as to precedent and ALL who say GITMNO is NOT U.S. soil. In addition, 9 past SCOTUS judges disagree with you on applicability of this case.

And it is not up to the State to come up with "problems" to pass a law. If that were the case congress could go home because they ARE the problem.

IN any event, your statement is an outright lie anyway. There have been literally thousands of case of voter fraud documented. Most of which in the latest round has been by Democrap operatives. Which is why Democraps are against these ID laws when they are passed.

Joycey
I don't understand your objection to allowing any person under US jurisdiction to challenge the premise of their detention. It's a universal right accepted universally by all civilized peoples. The burden of proof upon the state is nowhere the standard of "beyond a reasonable" doubt. All the state is required to prove is that there is a reasonable likelihood the defendant has commited the crimes he is accused of. What extra burden does this place upon the US government that you consider so egregious?

Joycey.... hellooooooo
You mention, "We are in a war. The enemy is Terror." Sorry Joycey, we're not at war with terror. We're at war with Islam whose followers murder & maime us Christians & Jews.

Terror isn't cutting our heads off with knives, Muslims are. Terror isn't setting cowardly bombs to murder & maime innocents, Muslims are.

Pal, when you don't identify your enemy in a fight and go after him... then you're asking to be hurt or killed. Terror isn't the enemy, Islam and its murderous Muslims are!

Joycey:
It is not within our purview to give or deny rights to others. The others you are talking about already possess those rights. Our only choice is whether or not to respect the principles that form the basis of our justice system.

Joycey, your view is skewed. You need to think anew.

“upholding the Constitution”
“Every president, every senator, every member of Congress and every Supreme Court justice takes an oath to uphold the Constitution...”

That’s all well and good, but what do you do about those who believe that “upholding the Constitution” means dissent, dissent, toujours dissent?

Vic it's simple
Either the detainees are POWs covered by the Geneva Conventions or they are enemy combatants covered by US or Cuban law.

Where US law applies, so does due process. Even the Military Judge presiding over Hamdm agrees with me. On the first day of trial he threw out parts of the prosecution's evidence PRECISELY because it had been obtained through coercion.

On the voter ID law...where is the damage for which this law is a rememdy? The state was unable to establish a single case of voter fraud at the polling place.

Tinsley:
Great post! I can't count the times I've tried to explain that concept to the posters here.

If the oath of office...
...is meaningless and unenforceable, why bother with it? Bush should have been impeached, and convicted for signing McCain-Feingold. McCain and Feingold should be censured, at the minimum, for their respective roles in violating the constitutional rights of Americans.

McCain should be dumped at the convention. He is a big government liberal who openly expresses contempt for The U.S. Constitution.

Mp
We are in a war.
The enemy is Terror.
We are holding enemy soldiers of Terror in a prison camp, they are not citizens.
It is our duty to make sure the citizens of this country are safe from harm from this enemy.
It is not our duty as citizens to give our enemy the rights of American citizens.
Now if Joe Blow comes here on a work visa from Germany and drives his BMW 180 mph on our freeways that is a different story. That is a crime. Terror by enemies does not = a crime it is an act of war. Allow your brain to work through thoughts don't just repeat what you hear.

Lawful v Legal
LAWFUL AUTHORITY
by
Tinsley Grey Sammons
bastiatlaw@aol.com

No power that contravenes the July 4, 1776 Action of the Second Continental Congress has Lawful Authority. By approving a written declaration of the only reasonable relationship between the Individual and Government, that Action established the Original Authority for the American People to severely limit government’s power over the individual. A man is after all an end in himself and in matters concerning liberty and justice, he must be treated as such. If the individual is not free, then neither can the so-called society that he is a fundamental part of be free.

Lawful and Legal are not synonyms. Neither do Lawful Authority and Legal Power mean the same thing. If Justice is to prevail, then Legal Power must never exceed Lawful Authority. There is an ethical element in lawful that is absent in legal.

Unlike the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence is eternal and cannot be amended. The Declaration is the uniquely American Promise, while the Constitution’s only lawful purpose is to fulfill that promise. America’s lawmakers need search no further than the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence to find the moral guidance they need to codify lawful power.

Laws that give government the Power to violate the Bill of Rights should be repealed outright. No Power that contravenes the Principles supporting the non-amendable July 4, 1776 Action of the Second Continental Congress has Lawful Authority.

*****

Read the Constitution!
Hear! Hear!

So many...
...otherwise bright people, argue minutiae while ignoring the real issue. It's sad; how can they be encouraged to open up their minds?

Bush's biggest sin ...
... has nothing to do with the war.

“I expect that the courts will resolve these legitimate legal questions as appropriate under the law.” , said Bush re McCain-Feingold.

"But that’s the wrong approach. Upon inauguration, a president swears to uphold the Constitution. If he thinks a bill is unconstitutional, he is duty bound to veto it, not kick it down the road for the courts to rule on. And as it turned out, the courts allowed the questionable provisions to stand, so now they’ll be harder than ever to fix.", says Feulner.

Amen and amen.

More stupid
Yes, wonderful. MP is just as stupid as Bryce. Go read the real precedent and stop opening your mouth and confirming that you are an idiot. Gitmo is NOT U.S. soil and that is acknowledge in the ruling itself.

http://supreme.justia.com/us/339/763/


Defending the Constitution
Historically in the U.S., a man, regardless of his station in life, was responsible for his actions. That included Supreme Court members and politicians. There are certain truths that don't change. No Politician today, and Judges are Politicians, has any concern that they will be held accountable for violations of the U.S. Constitution. Politicians have the U.S. Marshalls Service, the BATF, the FBI and any number of Local & State "legislature-enforcement" agencies, standing ready to defend them from the Citizens they habitually abuse.
The only time you read of one of these "public servants" being prosecuted is when they get cross-wise of one of their more powerfull fellows.
If Americans want their Country back - we will have to take it back. By whatever means is required. "Tar & Feathers" for Politicians and Judges that have no comprehension of the Constitution, would be a start. The same for "legislature-enforcement" types that try to defend them. Americans have a definitive decision to make, and soon. Do we allow the Politicians and Judges, Local State & Federal, to destroy this Nation or do we put them on notice & beat them as is required to get their attention???
Two centuries ago Benjamin Franklin said,
"Make yourselves sheep and the wolves wil eat you." Ben wasn't joking. Then, as today, the "wolves" we have to worry about breed in Government and protect themselves with the Justice system. Is armed insurrection the answer?? Only time and a million or so American Patriots hold that answer to that question, just as they did in 1776.

Dwain Cleveland

Wonderful.
MP gets it!

Universal Rights
The idea that the rights protected by the Constitution of the United States should apply to only US citizens is false. Any person who comes under jurisdiction of the United States government enjoys these protections, as these rights are universal; not determined by some accident of geographical birth.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Lestat
I have not read all the posts, but Lestat seems to be the one most closely voicing my opinion....which is I understand the 3 divisions were co-equal. In other words, Congress or the President could really ignore the "opinion" of the court, should they so desire. Everybody seems to have forgotten that. The SCOTUS is not the final authority on anything.

Vic
How is Gitmo not US soil? It's a US military base and as such constitutes US soil. Just as an aircraft carrier floating in the ocean is US soil. Before you call someone else the epitome of stupid, please heed the words of Mark Twain; "it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt." (paraphrased)

Layman in a professional world
It always amazes me when people decry rulings they find fault with as jucidial activism. Nevermind the +200 years of legislation and judicial findings that Justices base thier decisions off of. So before you cite the Constition as a basis for your disapproval, why not actually read the entire finding. Read the reasoning and basis for your objection; not just hunt for soundbytes to make you look smart. Or is America too dumbed down?

McAmnesty's Free Trader Invaders
Article IV, Section 4 of the Constitution REQUIRES the federal government to protect the states from invasion. McAmnesty has violated this Constitutional provision by facilitating the invasion and devastation of our country by over 30 MILLION illegal aliens and terrorists, and wants to grant them amnesty! Remember the raging, purple-faced, foul-mouthed REAL McAmnesty that tried to get the amnesty bill passed last summer without letting anyone read it? I believe it is the Minute Man organization that has found that close to 50,000 Americans have died at the hands of these McAmnesty free trader invaders, more than 10 times the number of Americans killed in Iraq! This guy is no "national security expert." Just the opposite--he is a neo-con globalist sellout of the worst kind, and should be removed from office, not nominated for anything. Johnny McTurncoat!

Amazing!!!
Fuelner writes, "Members of all three branches of our government should do some light reading this summer, and refresh themselves on their proper roles. After all, you can’t uphold what you don’t understand." But, his article clearly demonstrates that Fuelner, himself, has little understanding of The Constitution. Like I said, amazing!

the epitome of stupid
One idiotic posting after another by Bryce. First off the detainees Bryce had been under control of a different precedent which SCOTUS reversed with this latest ruling and then lied about it. And BTW, Gitmo is NOT U.S. soil.

As for voter ID, hahahahaha you obviously don’t know what the role of the court is. I guess that is ok though since 99.9% of your liberal collages don’t have a clue either. The voter ID laws were passed by the STATES. They are then challenged by people who wish to continue fraudulent voting….i.e. Democraps. It is up to the court to determine if the STATE may pass such laws. Since the Constitution give the States authority to establish voter policies that should be obvious but the courts stuck their nose in long ago.

In this case they said States may require voter ID. Wonder of wonders, you have to have ID to cash a welfare check, why is it an undue burden to require one to vote?

Bryce, you are the epitome of stupid.

Supreme Phonies
"This year it decided, by a 5-4 margin" *snip*

I submit that split decisions are indicative of posturing. Subjecting the history of the SC to critical thinking supports my indictment.

tgsam

Kudos Ed!
Well said. Eloquent, succinct and right on point!

By the way Bradford
You should check your sources more carefully. The Enemy Alien act applies to duh...Aliens. It also only applies to those over 14 yr old.

Sorry make that
Name one Japanese American citizen found guilty of treason.

Uhh...Talent
The 14th Amendment was in place prior to the internment.

How is it equal protection to allow millions of Americans of Italian and German descent to remain in the restricted areas, and not those of Japanese descent?

Further, the pertinent issue here is not security zones, it is the power of the gov't to hold American citizens without charge or trial based on arbritrary standards such as ethnicity.

Bradford
Name one Japanese citizen, besides Tokyo Rose, found guilty of espionage during WWII.

Also, would you argue that the thousands of infants, AMERICAN infants, were potential spies and sabateurs?

I'll ask you the same question I asked Talent. How does the 14th Amendment figure into your support for the Constitutionality of the internment?

14th amendment added in 1868
This was decided in 1944.
This means the decision is made constitutionally including the 14th amendment.
I just point this out for other persons who may now know, cause bryce is not interested in what is constitutional.
He is interested is his lies about all of it he comes to comment on.
Liars lie.


. To cast this case into outlines of racial prejudice, without reference to the real military dangers which were presented, merely confuses the issue.

Korematsu was not excluded from the Military Area because of hostility to him or his race.

He was excluded because we are at war with the Japanese Empire, because the properly constituted military authorities feared an invasion of our West Coast and felt constrained to take proper security measures, because they decided that the military urgency of the situation demanded that all citizens of Japanese ancestry be segregated from the West Coast temporarily,

and finally, because Congress, reposing its confidence in this time of war in our military leaders-as inevitably it must-determined that they should have the power to do just this. ...

AFFIRMED.

Mr. Justice FRANKFURTER, concurring.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&v ol=323&invol=214

bryce
Your intentional distortion of everything constitutional and right in support for terrorists over love for America is just plain evil and wrong.


I sure hope you go home to your country without doing any attacks here.
Save your breath and your typing of words of denial.
I see right through you and your lying agenda here

I'm curious Talent
Where does the 14th Amendment figure into your argument on the Constitutionality of the Japanese internment?


Talent
Your support for interning innocent American citizens without benefit of charges or trial is just plain wrong and un-American.

I sure hope you're just being contrarian.

This guy is a muslim
bryce Location: MI
- 3:11 AM EST
Absurd Talent
There is no grey area here. To detain American citizens who have commited no crime based entirely on their ethnicity is wrong any way you slice it. And frankly, your suggestion that this was in any way a good ruling is frankly repugnant.
===
You are repugnant

American Citizens!

Did not have habeas corpus under EO 9066
And some morons now claim enemy combatants captured on the field of battle do.
People that are law breakers by their terrorist acts in every single nation on this earth, including the muslim states.

And MORONS in the US Supreme Court create a right out of thin air for these combatants, and further more, take over all authority from BOTH Congress and the President!
Impeach these IDIOTS!






6-3 decision, EO 9066 Constitutional
Korematsu v. United States, 323 U.S. 214 (1944), -- http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/... -- was a landmark United States Supreme Court case that asked the question, "Did the President and Congress go beyond their war powers by implementing exclusion and restricting the rights of Americans of Japanese descent?"

In a 6-3 decision, the Court sided with the government, ruling that the exclusion order leading to internment of Japanese-Americans was constitutional. The opinion, written by Supreme Court justice Hugo Black, held that the need to protect against espionage outweighed Fred Korematsu's individual rights, and the rights of Americans of Japanese descent.

continued
The same Japanese documents refer to espionage assets in San Diego and San Pedro of first and SECOND GENERATION Japanese detailing airplane and supply shipments, production within aircraft plants in Los Angeles, Seattle, Bremerton and Honolulu Navy yards production schedules. The Japanese Consulate in LA wired Tokyo that "We shall maintain connections with our second generation who are at present in the Army to keep us informed"

Japanese Residents and Citizens involved in blatant acts. The Japanese Kai, groups of American citizens of Japanese descent that pledged sole allegience to the Empire, in the west coast were extensive and fervent. A house outside of Bremerton Navy Yard housed a short wave set for communication to the Japanese Navy. Searches of Kai homes in LA, Seattle, and Portland resulted in finding small arms weapons, blasting caps, explosives, films of ships, fortifications, and factories.

Prior to the internment, every military facility had teams of Japanese, isei, nisei, and US citizens providing exact details on production, fortification and airfield improvements, ship production, ship names - destinations, date of departure, and cargo manifest, troop shipments. Afterwards, the intel was crippled.

The 1982 Commission on Wartime Relocation made the statement of "not a single documented act of espionage, sabotage or fifth column activity was committed by an American citizen of Japanese ancestry or by a resident Japanese alien on the West Coast."

They refused to admit the seven volumes of MAGIC documents declassified in 1977.

They lied.

References for a more enlightened discussion would include the MAGIC dispatches, Malkin's In Defence of Internment, ONI documents, Murphy WWII Relocaton of Japanese Americans

Bryce, Chris, Lion - Japanese Internment
A stunning display of gross ignorance.

The internment was legal, sactioned by legislation of Congress, and justified. Why?

1798, the Alien Enemies Act was passed by Congress conferring power to the President to apprehend or deport residents if their home nation was at war with the US. This was used during the War of 1812 to intern British residents away from coastal towns. The law is still in effect.

Records from the Japanese government decoded through project MAGIC starting in 1938. Japanese nationals, many claiming dual citizenship, had success in espionage and sabotage prior to Japanese invasions of Hong Kong and the Philipines - including facilities in a brewery that gave radio guidance to incoming Japanese bombers.


Absurd Talent
There is no grey area here. To detain American citizens who have commited no crime based entirely on their ethnicity is wrong any way you slice it. And frankly, your suggestion that this was in any way a good ruling is frankly repugnant.

AFFIRMED.
It is said that we are dealing here with the case of imprisonment of a citizen in a concentration camp solely because of his ancestry, without evidence or inquiry concerning his loyalty and good disposition towards the United States. Our task would be simple, our duty clear, were this a case involving the imprisonment of a loyal citizen in a concentration camp because of racial prejudice. Regardless of the true nature of the assembly and relocation centers-and we deem it unjustifiable to call them concentration camps with all the ugly connotations that term implies-we are dealing specifically with nothing but an exclusion order. To cast this case into outlines of racial prejudice, without reference to the real military dangers which were presented, merely confuses the issue. Korematsu was not excluded from the Military Area because of hostility to him or his race. He was excluded because we are at war with the Japanese Empire, because the properly constituted military authorities feared an invasion of our West Coast and felt constrained to take proper security measures, because they decided that the military urgency of the situation demanded that all citizens of Japanese ancestry be segregated from the West Coast temporarily,

and finally,

because Congress,

reposing its confidence in this time of war in our military leaders-as inevitably it must-determined that they

should have the power to do just this.

There was evidence of disloyalty on the part of some, the military authorities considered that the need for [323 U.S. 214, 224] action was great, and time was short. We cannot-by availing ourselves of the calm perspective of hindsight-now say that at that time these actions were unjustified.

AFFIRMED.

Mr. Justice FRANKFURTER, concurring.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&v ol=323&invol=214


Court had common sense back then
And decided this case exactly right
When Martial Law is in effect, the only rights anyone has is what Congress has allowed.
Not a civil court.
A civil court has no say when the Congress, the President and the Military decide an issue that concerns national security.
National Security takes precedence over all civil and criminal law.
period.


Here, as in the Hirabayashi case, supra, 320 U.S. at page 99, 63 S.Ct. at page 1385, '... we cannot reject as unfounded the judgment of the military authorities and of Congress that there were disloyal members of that population, whose number and strength could not be precisely and quickly ascertained.

We cannot say that the war-making branches of the Government did not have ground for believing that in a critical hour such persons could not readily be isolated and separately dealt with, and constituted a menace to the national defense and safety, which demanded that prompt and adequate measures be taken to guard against it.'

Like curfew, exclusion of those of Japanese origin was deemed necessary because of the presence of an unascertained number of disloyal members of the group, most of [323 U.S. 214, 219]

...

Approximately five thousand American citizens of Japanese ancestry refused to swear unqualified allegiance to the United States and to renounce allegiance to the Japanese Emperor, and several thousand evacuees requested repatriation to Japan.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&v ol=323&invol=214


Court i right in this case

cont..
Justice Black..
As is the case with the exclusion order here, that prior curfew order was designed as a 'protection against espionage and against sabotage.' In Kiyoshi Hirabayashi v. United States, 320 U.S. 81, 63 S.Ct. 1375, we sustained a conviction obtained for violation of the curfew order. The Hirabayashi conviction and this one thus rest on the same 1942 Congressional Act and the same basic executive and military orders, all of which orders were aimed at the twin dangers of espionage and sabotage.

The 1942 Act was attacked in the Hirabayashi case as an unconstitutional delegation of power; it was contended that the curfew order and other orders on which it rested were beyond the war powers of the Congress, the military authorities and of the President, as Commander in Chief of the Army; and finally that to apply the curfew order against none but citizens of Japanese ancestry amounted to a constitutionally prohibited discrimination solely on account of race. To these questions, we gave the serious consideration which their importance justified. We upheld the curfew order as an exercise of the power of the government to take steps necessary to prevent espionage and sabotage in an area threatened by Japanese attack.

Court is right in this case
cont...




In the instant case prosecution of the petitioner was begun by information charging violation of an Act of Congress, of March 21, 1942, 56 Stat. 173, 18 U.S.C.A. 97a, which provides that

'... whoever shall enter, remain in, leave, or commit any act in any military area or military zone prescribed, under the authority of an Executive order of the President, by the Secretary of War, or by any military commander designated by the Secretary of War, contrary to the restrictions applicable to any such area or zone or contrary to the order of the Secretary of War or any such military commander, shall, if it appears that he knew or should have known of the existence and extent of the restrictions or order and that his act was in violation thereof, be guilty of a misdemeanor and upon conviction shall be liable to a fine of not to exceed $5,000 or to imprisonment for not more than one year, or both, for each offense.'

Exclusion Order No. 34, which the petitioner knowingly and admittedly violated was one of a number of military orders and proclamations, all of which were sub- [323 U.S. 214, 217] stantially based upon Executive Order No. 9066, 7 Fed.Reg. 1407.

That order, issued after we were at war with Japan, declared that 'the successful prosecution of the war requires every possible protection against espionage and against sabotage to national-defense material, national-defense premises, and national-defense utilities. ...'

One of the series of orders and proclamations, a curfew order, which like the exclusion order here was promulgated pursuant to Executive Order 9066, subjected all persons of Japanese ancestry in prescribed West Coast military areas to remain in their residences from 8 p.m. to 6 a.m.

cont...

The last word on it
U.S. Supreme Court
TOYOSABURO KOREMATSU v. UNITED STATES, 323 U.S. 214 (1944)

323 U.S. 214

TOYOSABURO KOREMATSU
v.
UNITED STATES.
No. 22.

Argued Oct. 11, 12, 1944.
Decided Dec. 18, 1944.

Mr. Justice BLACK delivered the opinion of the Court.

The petitioner, an American citizen of Japanese descent, was convicted in a federal district court for remaining in San Leandro, California, a 'Military Area', contrary to Civilian Exclusion Order No. 34 of the Commanding General [323 U.S. 214, 216] of the Western Command, U.S. Army, which directed that after May 9, 1942, all persons of Japanese ancestry should be excluded from that area. No question was raised as to petitioner's loyalty to the United States. The Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed,1 and the importance of the constitutional question involved caused us to grant certiorari.

It should be noted, to begin with, that all legal restrictions which curtail the civil rights of a single racial group are immediately suspect. That is not to say that all such restrictions are unconstitutional. It is to say that courts must subject them to the most rigid scrutiny. Pressing public necessity may sometimes justify the existence of such restrictions; racial antagonism never can.



cont..

talent scout, Korematsu v US
was decided wrongly, just as this recent habeas case was decided wrongly.

Everything for which FDR is commonly remembered other than getting into WWII was unconstitutional. The new deal, TVA, social security, etc are not powers enumerated to the federal government, and were thus unconstitutional.

McCain-Feingold is unconstitutional, and as Feulner properly points out, McCain was wrong to write it, Bush was wrong to sign it, and the SC was wrong to uphold it.

talent scout, I agree with you that this recent case was decided wrongly by the SC, but I don't understand why you would use a prior SC case to support your point that the SC is now wrong when that old case also violates a clear reading of the constitution.

OK Lestat I'll bite...
You refute the judgement that Guantanamo is US controlled territory. Ok...are you then asserting that the laws of Cuba should apply? And if so, which Cuba? The US friendly Cuba that gave us control of GITMO in perpetuity, or the existing gov't that refuses to acknowledge the legality of our presence?

You see, this is exactly the point. The detainees are either POWs covered by the Geneva Conventions, or enemy combatants covered by the laws of the US or Cuba. Since US law applies here, so does the Constitution and its' basic due process guarantees. And no, we're not talking Mirandizing detainees. Adhering to the UCMJ would do just fine.

By the way, the Military Judge in the Hamdm case agrees with me. Today he threw out statements used against Hamdm PRECISELY because the statements were obtained under coercion.

crucial distinction
Martial Law v Civil Law



the Court decided Ex parte Endo -- http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/... -- decisions in Korematsu and Endo make clear that the crucial distinction was that the military can use powers that civilian authorities cannot.

Territories
No state or territory is subject to the U.S. Constitution unless and until there is mutual agreement to admit it into the Union. If the SC says otherwise, it is not following the Constitution.

The U.S. effectively controls Iraq in a military sense, yet no one suggests that Iraqi citizens are covered by OUR Bill of Rights.

6-3 decision, EO 9066 Constitutional
Korematsu v. United States, 323 U.S. 214 (1944), -- http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/... -- was a landmark United States Supreme Court case that asked the question, "Did the President and Congress go beyond their war powers by implementing exclusion and restricting the rights of Americans of Japanese descent?"

In a 6-3 decision, the Court sided with the government, ruling that the exclusion order leading to internment of Japanese-Americans was constitutional. The opinion, written by Supreme Court justice Hugo Black, held that the need to protect against espionage outweighed Fred Korematsu's individual rights, and the rights of Americans of Japanese descent.

bryce
Your favorite argument (as opposed to mine: the exact wording of the Constitution) seems to be that "[t]he Court has" said this or that. I would remind you that this is the same branch of gov't that gave us decisions like Dred Scott. Was that correct just because the Court said so, or were the Constitution and the Declaration correct when they said the People may not be deprived of life and liberty without due process (meaning convicted of a crime)?

The authority of my source is far superior to yours.

Change it then, gotta see this
chris writes:- 1:38 AM EST
The WWII japanese detainment was
wrong because suspending the writ is a legislative function (in Article 1), not an executive on (Article 2). FDR did not constitutionally have the power to order the detainment.
===
So you say now
About 66 years to late
Let me see you change it
Or what exactly makes you think neither FDR or any one in America knew the Constitution in the 1940's?

Where were you to teach everyone back then?

Foreign enemies comparing the KKK to
Enemy combatants.
(stupid)
One thing would take habeas away from even a citizen, let alone the KKK or a bank robber.
If the President placed them under Martial law.

Then they have no habeas corpus rights whatsoever.
Their rights are no more than what Congress gives them.
The Court has no say in any of it and are not in the Chain of Command

Wow, Wobbie!
That's an excellent constitutional analysis. You're right; we're no match for your intellect.

That's all.

Pure drivel
Utter stupidity

===

bryce writes from the mosque: 1:39 AM EST
Subject: Talent on habeus and public safety
I will again site the case of the KKK.

No one would argue that their actions were a serious threat to public safety. By your reckoning, the gov't had the right to pick up anyone accused of being associated with the KKK and detain them without charges or a legal right to challenge their detention.
===

ts:
Maybe to a moron
Not me

The difference as I pointed out, which system of law a person is detained under.

There is 3 separate laws one can be placed in detention over.
1. Civil Law
2. Criminal Law
3. Military Law.

The first two have provisions of habeas corpus.

Not the third, which is what enemy combatants were arrested under.
And subject to the Rules made by Congress.
Not the Court
The Court has no say and have pushed their big nose in unconstitutionallly

Hawaii
was admitted into the Union on August 21, 1959. The U.S. technically was not invaded in 1941, but our forces were attacked at a U.S.-held military base OUTSIDE the United States proper.

Pet Goat
I am sure I would not get it. You see, in your clamor for more and more from the government, fix this, fix that, solve this problem, throw some more money at that one, you have never paused and examined anything they have done in the past. Such an examination would stop any such nonsense. You see, the government never fixes anything. It simply creates more problems to be solved. A self defeating downward spiral. Wake up. Open your eyes.

bryce
I provided direct quotes to support my position. Please cite the exact text of the U.S. Constitution that says the SC is "the final arbritar [sic] of what is or is not Constitutional." It doesn't seem to appear in my copy.

Do you understand why the Framers included the Congressional power to "make rules concerning captures"? Why would they write that if those prisoners were already covered by the Constitution? It doesn't say every rule except habeas corpus.

Military law applies to military personnel. Congressional laws regarding due process for enemy combatants apply to enemy combatants held by the military.

It's absolutely absurd - and unprecedented, until Boumediene - to assert that the U.S. Constitution guarantees the rights of non-U.S. citizens on foreign soil. And making an exception for "territories under US control" makes no sense, either. Whenever the U.S. military wins a square foot of ground in a battle, you could assert that the Constitution suddenly applies to anyone in that territory. That means captured enemy soldiers would have to be Mirandized and the military would have to make sure they are charged with crimes and receive "a speedy and public trial." Our troops would have to conduct forensic investigations to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the combatants in question actually fired their weapons at our soldiers.

And of course the witnesses, i.e. our troops, would have to be pulled from the front lines (remember Saving Private Ryan? - easier said than done in large-scale wars) to testify against the enemy.

BTW, what crime does a regular enemy soldier commit on a battlefield that justifies detaining him? And the Geneva Conventions must be an unconstitutional infringement on prisoners' Constitutional rights. Congress can't just make a law suspending their rights, even in the form of a treaty, right?

Robert is right LL
The Court has afforded due process to non-citizens in US controlled territories since the beginning of the 19th century, and continues to do so in places like American Somoa.

Pet Goat
I just have to add that your comment reveals the utter disconnect in the liberal brain. You decry supposed power grabbing by a supposed republican president as horrible and support the same times ten. Quite mind boggling

Hitchhiker --
Yes, it is a complex plot and the details are intricate. I would explain it to you, but I don't think you'd get it.

Make that
EVERYONE agrees that the KKK was a threat to public safety during the civil rights era.

Talent on habeus and public safety
I will again site the case of the KKK.

No one would argue that their actions were a serious threat to public safety. By your reckoning, the gov't had the right to pick up anyone accused of being associated with the KKK and detain them without charges or a legal right to challenge their detention.

The WWII japanese detainment was
wrong because suspending the writ is a legislative function (in Article 1), not an executive on (Article 2). FDR did not constitutionally have the power to order the detainment.

saltydog, I found it. you just have
to look really hard. From Article 1:

"all lEgislatiVe pOwers herein granted shaLl be
Vested IN a conGress...."

See - I can make the constitution say whatever I want it to say.


P.S. Sorry about my 1:22 post - I was a little behind the curve...

But talent scout is right - if congress declares we are being invaded, it does have the power to suspend habeas corpus, so the SCOTUS ruling was in error.

Detainees
One, the Constitution and habeas corpus only apply to American CITIZENS and legal residents. Not to the enemy captured in battle. Amazingly, Congress actually seems to have understood this in the Acts that they passed. Creating these rules for the enemy DOES NOT suspend habeas for American citizens or legal residents.

Two, we should deal with terrorists out of uniform on the field of battle like we did in all other wars, shot on the spot as spies. The Geneva Convention specifically excludes them from any protections.

Third, some of the men who wrote the Constitution WERE lawyers, but they practiced their profession honorably, until so many today. John Adams comes to mind. These men (and the women supporting them) had very good reasons for what they put in the Declaration and the Constitution and those reasons ring true today.

Silver Lion
Thankfully, the founders did not take the writ as a central element of our judicial system so lightly. I will remind you that during the War of 1812, there was not just a single attacked that lasted for several hours, but rather, thousands of British troops burning down the Capitol.

And yet, to their great credit, the writ prevailed.

My Pet Goat
Blah, blah, blah. The same things said when you helped hand the country over to the biggest hound dog in the country. I do hope you will be there, Goat, to steady me if I get a touch of the vapors.

Btw, since you are obviously part of the change we have been waiting for, can you spill any of the big secrets here or are you sworn to secrecy like everyone else apparently is.

Talent Scout you're kidding right?
Are you seriously defending your point of view on the Court by invoking what is roundly considered to be one of the greatest injustices of American history?

Wrong
bryce writes:- 1:03 AM EST

Where US law applies, whether civilian or military, so does the Constitution, and the SCOTUS is by Constitution decree the final arbritar of what is or is not Constitutional.
=====
ts:
This lie will not fly ever again over America and left standing.
The biggest lie ever told about the powers of Government.
Its complete nonsense, and only an enemy of America promotes it.
This is completely made up out of thin air and has not a single line of truth to it found in any document of the United States of America.


=====
bryce writes:
Even in military law, hearsay evidence and evidence obtained through coercive techniques violate due process.
===
ts:
True
And the Justice System of the Military and Civil Courts are not close to the same.
There is no such thing as a "jury of your peers" in USMCJ.

Two different systems and both constitutional
=====
bryce writes:
Additionally, the laws passed by Congress contained language suspending the writ, which is strictly unConstitutional.
===
ts:
Grand lie

United States Constitution
Article I

Section 1. All legislative powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.

Article 1
Section 9
Clause 2
The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.

Congressional power can deny habeas for public safety

bryce, from Article 1 Section 9:
"The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it."

Artile 1 meaning it pertains to the role of Congress.

So if we are being invaded (remember 9-11?), congress can constitutionally suspend the writ of habeas corpus for CITIZENS!

And we're talking about non-citizens found on the field of battle.

Evolving standards

I have almost gone blind trying to find the "evolving standards of decency" in the constitution.

Can some of you guys help me out here?

A stinker not mentioned by the author
The voter ID ruling. Over the last two terms conservative members of the court consistently ruled that claims of employees against employers must demonstate specific harm.

In the voter ID case, the state of Indiana could not demonstrate a single case of voter fraud at the polling place, although it did admit that several thousand voters could be adversely affected by the law. Further, the Indiana law exempts absentee voters, the only part of the voting process where specific cases of fraud could be demonstrated.

In other words, the court allowed a rememdy for a problem that does not exists, and would potentially disenfranchise thousands of voters, while conpletely ignoring a very real problem.

Yeah, that one and the 6 month statute of limitations on filing discrimation charges were real stinkers.

He is wrong anyway Silver Lion

Bryce writes:
"Secondly, as the author himself notes, the detainee laws passed by Congress contained language suspending the writ of habeus, which is strictly unConstitutional except in cases of invasion or rebellion."
===
Silver Lion writes:

I would consider 9/11 and 3,000 DEAD Americans an "invasion", would'nt you?
===

In the US Constitution habeas Corpus is listed under Article 1
Which Article is addressed to Congress and says this in Section 9
Clause 2

The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.

In 1942 FDR suspended habeas corpus for American citizens of Japanese Ancestry that were neither invading or in rebellion with the power of these words "public safety may require it."

Executive Order 9066-

Executive Order 9066 authorized the federal government to incarcerate nearly 120,000 Japanese Americans--without due process--in internment camps throughout World War II.

They were under martial Law
Not Civil Law that provides habeas, once FDR made it official by EO 9066.

"There was not one instance of sabotage or espionage by Japanese American citizens or residents of the United States before or during the war."

Balance
Among W's great failures will be his attempt to virtually destroy the balance of powers so perfectly articulated in the Constitution.

What a delight it will be to watch all you Bushies faint when you realize that the skewered tilt to the Executive Branch is about to be handed over to a liberal Democrat.

Well, the real bottom line,

when you think about it, is that all the politicians who actually have to face the voters simply want to leave the hard decisions to the ones who don't: the judges.

The example of Bush signing McCain-Feingold into law was the most telling while also being the most egregious exhibition of political cowardice. If ever there was an opportunity for an example of courage in principle, that was it.

He failed miserably.

Lestat
Where US law applies, whether civilian or military, so does the Constitution, and the SCOTUS is by Constitution decree the final arbritar of what is or is not Constitutional.

Even in military law, hearsay evidence and evidence obtained through coercive techniques violate due process.

Additionally, the laws passed by Congress contained language suspending the writ, which is strictly unConstitutional.

Cognitive incompetence
Their minds have been cognitively disintegrated, thanks to progressive education. They don't understand or see the importance of our best political writings because they were taught to be concrete and unintegrated. They were taught the method of pragmatism, to experiment to determine what "works," by a standard they cannot name, without regard to principles or abstract thinking.

The end result was minds incapable of understanding concepts and abstract ideas and principles. They are completely cognitively helpless. When they sit in the White House, their only method of functioning is to have some other consciousness analyze the information for them and make a recommendation on what to do. Their decision-making process then consists of making crude calculations as to which people will become winners, and which will become losers, by name. Can you imagine the intellectual and psychological corruption required to accede to a request to sign a law whose constitutionality you doubt?

We will just have to do the thinking for them for now. Then we will have to find politicians who are amenable to our way of thinking, put the screws to them, and punt the rest.

Become Confused After All These Years?
It would take "a willing suspension of disbelief" to think that after all these years of our existence and progress, the SCOTUS would suddenly become so confused and misguided. Their recent rulings are an outright disregard of our founders and what the intention of those incredibly special documents contain. Their concept and perception of "freedom" is becoming very, very different from the average citizens'.

U.S. Constitution, Article I, Section 8:
"The Congress shall have power... To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;"

Article III, Section 2:

"In all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, and those in which a state shall be party, the Supreme Court shall have original jurisdiction. In all the other cases before mentioned, the Supreme Court shall have appellate jurisdiction, both as to law and fact, with such exceptions, and under such regulations as the Congress shall make."


So Congress alone has the power to determine the rules for handling prisoners of war, superseded only by treaties that are negotiated by the President and ratified by the Senate. In this case, the Geneva Conventions do not provide any protections to the combatants because they did not wear uniforms, intentionally targeted civilians, etc. (To extend such protections to "unlawful" combatants would endanger legitimate troops and civilians by removing the incentives to follow the "rules of war.")

Furthermore, Congress has explicit constitutional authority to remove any matter from the jurisdiction of the SC. Congress said habeas corpus will not be extended to Gitmo prisoners. "[H]ear or consider" = habeas corpus.

There's nothing unclear about any of this.

Reply to Bryce
"Secondly, as the author himself notes, the detainee laws passed by Congress contained language suspending the writ of habeus, which is strictly unConstitutional except in cases of invasion or rebellion."

I would consider 9/11 and 3,000 DEAD Americans an "invasion", would'nt you?

The structural form of government
we have is great and has served us well over the years. What part of "uphold" do these "officials" not understand?

No New Law for Detainees
what the court affirmed is that where US law applies, so does the Constitution and due process. This is nothing new. Since the first Native American reservations were created in the early 19th century, the court has always found that detainments in territories under US control are subject to basic Constitutional protections.

Secondly, as the author himself notes, the detainee laws passed by Congress contained language suspending the writ of habeus, which is strictly unConstitutional except in cases of invasion or rebellion.

The oath
Is there a legal remedy? Is there a punishment for ignoring the oath of office?

I am appalled by SCOTUS members justifying opinions by refering to foriegn law as an authority. That is an outrage and a clear violation of their oath.

If this behavior continues, I see no alternative to armed resistance.

I wish we all would get on board
With the seriousness of this article.
What we are seeing is a slow incorporation of all three branch's of government under one small group of unelected men, and just 5 of those.

Totally illegal operation and allowed to continue by NEGLIGENCE of the Oath and Duty to protect the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

The US Constitution was not written by Lawyers, and it means exactly what it says.
Easy to read, and it addresses every issue as to the division and separation of powers

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