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Monday, May 12, 2008
Ed Feulner :: Townhall.com Columnist
Gas Prices and the Blame Game
by Ed Feulner
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Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


       With fill-ups routinely costing $60 or more, cost-conscious drivers naturally look for someone to blame. And just as naturally, politicians are happy to blame others.  

        Enter “Big Oil,” the demagogues’ favorite villain. Gas prices soaring? It’s because oil companies want “excess profits,” as Barack Obama puts it. Right?

        Wrong. The truth is more complicated.

        Let’s look to California, driving capital of the world. Officials there watch gas prices carefully. During March and April, a state analysis found that “distribution costs, marketing costs and profits” made up about 10 cents of the cost of a gallon of gasoline, which ranged from $3.46 to $3.89. Notice that that dime is less than 3 percent of the total retail cost, and profits account for only part of it. So those “excess profits” are actually well below 3 percent of retail costs.

        Of course, that’s little comfort to tapped-out drivers. And the big oil companies are certainly making big money -- Exxon Mobil alone earned $40.6 billion last year. But such profits follow naturally when a company sells a product that so many people want to buy. Some recent history offers us a bit of perspective.

        In 1998, a recession in Asia created an oil glut. Prices plunged to historic lows (near $10 a barrel), and American drivers reaped the benefits, with gas dipping below $1 per gallon. So how did Exxon fare in those days of low prices?

        According to Forbes magazine, Exxon earned more in profits than any other American company in 1998. Sales increased 3 percent over 1997 and profits jumped 12.6 percent, to $8.4 billion. Again, remember: Oil was remarkably cheap that year, yet Exxon earned double-digit profits. Few complained then.

        The lesson is simple: When a company sells a product people want, it tends to make money, in good times and in bad. For years, oil has remained a product that Americans want -- and today’s high prices have done little to change that.

        (Full disclosure: Yes, “big oil” gave to The Heritage Foundation last year. Their combined donations accounted for one-quarter of 1 percent of our revenues.)

        It’s also worth noting that oil companies are probably the most investigated companies in America. Every few years, outraged legislators demand that the Federal Trade Commission determine whether oil companies are colluding to inflate prices. Repeatedly, federal regulators find that they aren’t.

        A few months ago the FTC said this about high gas prices: “All of the increase can be attributed to increased crude oil costs, because gasoline inventories are as ample as they have been for several years, gasoline consumption is declining to a near-record extent, and refining margins -- the difference between the cost of crude oil and the wholesale price of gasoline -- have fallen.”

        So who’s making the big money? The countries that produce crude oil. Crude represents more than half of the cost of each gallon of gasoline sold. Federal, state and local taxes represent another fifth.

        Yet some insist we punish “big oil.” During one presidential debate, Hillary Clinton announced that “the oil companies reported the highest profits in the history of the world. I want to take those profits, and I want to put them into a strategic energy fund.”

        But confiscating oil company profits is a lousy idea. Profits are what keep them in business. It allows them to invest in refining and delivery systems, and search for new deposits of petroleum. Profits fuel our capitalist system as surely as petroleum fuels our national economy. Plus, “big oil” returns billions to stockholders through dividends, and millions of Americans own its stock through their mutual funds and 401(k)s.

        The best way to cut prices in the long run would be to increase supplies. Policymakers could help do this if they would allow drilling off-shore and in a tiny section of Alaska’s barren Artic National Wildlife Refuge.

        It makes no sense to keep so much domestic oil off-limits, especially with prices climbing. As long as we do it, we’ll pay more than we need to for each gallon of gasoline and keep sending big profits overseas. Let’s stop stalling -- and start drilling.

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About The Author
Dr. Edwin Feulner is president of The Heritage Foundation, a Townhall.com Gold Partner, and co-author of Getting America Right: The True Conservative Values Our Nation Needs Today .
 
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Let's not
It is ridiculous in 2008 to still be driving vehicles that idle at stop lights. It's also ridiculous to drive vehicles that don't have regenerative braking to store energy. The technology is there off the shelf.

People all over this country are finally starting to make serious changes in favor of reducing oil consumption. Drilling more or even talking about drilling more will impede that progress.

We've recently gotten more data on the damaged health of children living near freeways. And of course there's the issue of global warming. Many of those leaving their cars are walking an bicycling. That could finally turn the corner on our excessive obesity rates. Reducing oil use is a good thing and we should ride the trend as far as we can.

One can't help compare the Drill-to-the-last-drop mentality with what the "conservatives" of the day were saying on Easter Island as its forests were disappearing. Anyone with brains should have been able to tell that they should have changed their behavior long before they got to a crisis.

"The Arrogance of the Elites"
This would be a great book title. Can you imagine a table of contents with the following headings: "Power over Life and Death" a detailed comparison of "Relative Death, Physical Injury, and Psychological Injury Rates by Category. This chapter might include Deaths by Disease, Deaths by Abortion, Deaths by Suicide, Deaths by Motorized Vehicle, Deaths by War, and Deaths by Government Sanctioned Administration of Capital Punishment. The main purpose of this portion of the book would be to compare and contrast the huge disparity in numbers of loss of life and the ideology put forth by the Elites and the common knowledge of the rest of the population concerning passive, assumptive, accidental, criminal execution, and occuptional loss of human life. The facts should bear out the weight of common knowledge both in the US and the rest of the world. I have not heard anyone take on the Elites on their position that "too many have died in Iraq" without regard to other causes of death. Soldiering, which carries a built in hazard factor and is totally voluntary, vs all other safety occupation deaths stateside, has not been contrasted as far as I know. The Elites do not discuss improving the roadways in America to improve the chances of having a safe driving experience. The Elites solution is mass transit which only works efficiently in a small percentage of all American cities. The Elites are out of touch with the needs of the majority of the population when it comes to improving the basic components of the quality and quantity of life.


Well Ed the answer is simple
The Democraps are communists and they are also supporting the eco-idiots who fall in several categories:

1. Crooks who wish to make money off the eco-scams.
2. Fools who believe the crooks
3. Kuddite/Anarchists who wish to return civilization to the primitive.

The Arrogance of the Elites 2
The next chapter/section of the book concerns the crazy notion of the Elites that they can control the Earth's environment in total through various global policies and governmental programs. "Global Warming", "Man vs Natural Disasters", and "Policy on the Orbit of the Earth around the Sun", are all open targets for this discussion topic for contrast and comparison of ideology between Elites and the rest of us.
The last chapter/section of the book should address "Power over the People". This discussion of the Elites must disclose their ideology. Also, How the Elites rose to power over the second most populist party in America. How they have influenced millions of American voters to support their candidates and their agenda. It is easy to dismiss the Elites as "Lefties" or "Crazies" or "Radicals" without delving into the serious dangers of their unstated agenda. In this chapter/section "Role of Government", "Governmental Arms Control", "Governmental Control of Money through Taxation", "Governmental Regulation of Health and Human Services", "Shrinking Military Presence and Shrinking America's Ability to Defend Itself" are all viable topics for comparison and evaluation as to purpose of exposing the Elites agenda.

I would like for someone to take on this project.


The Denial of the Conservatives
"The Elites do not discuss improving the roadways in America to improve the chances of having a safe driving experience."

Ever heard of seat belts or air bags? Liberals were chastized by conservatives for advocating both. 15,000 people died in SUV rollovers due to lack of oversight by the Reagan/Bush Administrations.

Who are the "economic" Elites? Those would be the people who advocate tax cuts for the most "elite" wage earners.

Cam, Cam, Cam ... where do I begin?
Your wonderful idea of "regenerative braking" has another, more common name: most people call them "hybrids".

It's not a new idea at all, or particularly a smart idea either.

You see, the problem is that hybrid cars are much more complex and much more expensive to manufacture than standard gas or diesel vehicles, and the typical car maker who offers a hybrid charges about $5,000 to $7,000 for a hybrid model over its gas-only version. Hybrids deliver about 25-30% more gas mileage in town (but only about the same on the highway) as a standard gas model.

Even at $4 a gallon, driving about 15,000 miles a year, of which 60% is city driving, it would save the average driver only about 110 gallons of gas a year, or less than $500 a year. Most buyers would never get their money back on the initial purchase. Maintenance on a hybrid also costs a lot more. A hybrid is a horrible waste of money.

As to what "conservatives" were saying on Easter Island, I defer to your unique knowledge of the political discourse in an ancient extinct society that left us no written records. Whatever.

We use lots of petroleum because its still cheap, even at $4 a gal. However, it would be far better if we drilled and produced more oil here in the USA and bought less from OPEC. We're just putting profits in the pockets of Al Qaeda and Al Quds terrorists who are killing American soldiers and foreign civilians.

The only serious solution is technological - and the higher the price of foreign oil, the quicker the alternatives - including hydrogen fuel cells, fusion power, and wind and solar power - will be made commercially feasible.

Cam - you are confused
Conservatives do not oppose better safety performance in motor vehicles ... where the heck do you get that from? We drive too, and we are at least as concerned about the safety of drivers and passengers ... uh, that would be ourselves and our loved ones ... as any liberal who ever lived. In fact, liberals tend to dislike people, and the impacts that they say people cause to Mother Earth, or Gaia, or whatever the heck it is that liberals worship these days.

In fact, if you want to talk safety, the libs always promoted CAFE standards, but the problem is, CAFE standards led to smaller, lighter cars that are much less safe in serious collisions - it's a simple matter of physics, actually ... lighter vehicles are less safe. It has been estimated that the 1975 CAFE standards led to at least 46,000 excess highway deaths ... that's a number that is comparable to the number of American military killed in each of the Vietnam and Korean Wars.

And liberals led the Congress to pass yet another CAFE standard just last year. Get ready for lots more unnecessary funerals.

Smoke and Mirrors
Mr. Feulner states "It allows them to invest in refining and delivery systems, and search for new deposits of petroleum." However, there have been no new refineries being built in the US for a long time. It is simply more profitable to stick with the ancient facilities and keep production at a lower level. He also fails to mention the reason oil is so expensive is that the US dollar has collapsed. He fails to mention the profits being made in the oil future and commodity markets by investors, especially hedge funds. He wants us to believe that if only we could open up Anwar to drilling this would solve the oil price problem (98% of Alaska is already open for drilling). Who is making the money on that Alaskan oil? A little bit goes to the taxpayers of Alaska. The rest goes to??? There is no reason to believe that oil from Anwar would help lower the price of gasoline in the US. Increased production in the US may be a benefit from a strategic standpoint but will not likely result in a change in the price at the pump.

Mr. Feulner incorrectly states that the profit margins of oil companies are in line with other companies on a percentage basis. He fails to mention the tax incentives given to these companies by the US government that is not given to most other multi-billion dollar a year businesses. Secondly, it is well known that profit margins are much lower when dealing with a product such as gasoline because of the scale of production. Grocery chains for example make much lower profit margins on the products they sell as the volume increases.

Finally, he ignores the obvious way to lower the price of gasoline, lower the demand, by having more efficient vehicles. This is the only we are going to get off the oil fix. By the way, Business Week just published a study on the effect of biofuel from corn on the price of corn, wheat and rice. Their conclusion there is no connection.

athing
Your post doesn't add up.

1. Drill to bring the price down while expecting more technological development?

2. Note that oil $ wind up in terrorist accounts, but include only personal costs in the cost/benefit considerations. I drive a hybrid. It's worth it for me to do my share to ensure that my kids don't wind up fighting in the Persian Gulf (not many other options).

It would not be better to reverse the trends of reducing environmental damage (drilling, transporting, refining, and combusting petroleum) and improving exercise and health.

no, you're confused
"we are at least as concerned about the safety of drivers and passengers ... as any liberal who ever lived. In fact, liberals tend to dislike people"

Again, the NHTSA refused to act on SUV rollovers under both the Reagan and Bush Administrations. "Physics" shows that the higher cg makes them more prone to rollovers. They also make it harder to back out safely. This 46k figure comes from where?

It was recently reported that Bush II officials rewrote reports of EPA staffers on global warming. They did the same thing on New Source Review, pre-Iraq War intelligence, and the tobacco company settlements. FDA enforcement of pharmaceutical laws dropped in half under Bush. I can't see where anyone would get the idea that a conservative would risk public health to help a contributor make a buck.

Cam - 2 + 2 = 4
You didn't read my post very carefully - I did not say we need to drill more to bring the price down. I am quite happy to see petroleum prices high, because that's the only way we'll ever wean ourselves off foreign oil.

We need to drill more so that we put American dollars in American pockets, not in terrorist pockets.

High oil prices are actually beneficial - as I wrote in my post - if we do not want to be funding worldwide terrorism any longer than we have to. For now, we have to .... but in a few years we could be sending many fewer dollars to Zawahiri, A-Jad, Chavez, and Putin.

By driving a hybrid, it's true you are also helping to send fewer dollars to the bad guys. But the problem is hybrids have bad economics. You're paying a premium in order to pat yourself on the back.

For now, you're far better off buying a latest-generation clean diesel powered car than a hybrid. You'll get as good or better fuel mileage, you'll have much lower maintenance costs and much longer engine life. And the cost of new generation diesel engines, while still higher than gas engines, about splits the diff between gas and hybrids.

I agree that it would be better to live without petroleum in the long run, but that is impossible for at least the next generation. So in the meantime, at least we should produce what we consume here in America, and not fund the world's bad guys. Technology and free markets will, however, eventually pull the rug out from under the bad guys.

No you Nazis
we are not opposed to safety devices. We are opposed to government mandated safety at the point of a gun.

athing
This sounds very much like the rationale of the heroine addict who knows he should quit but doesn't want to suffer withdrawals.

As I noted in my post, drilling and even talking about drilling will disuade people from investing in other options and making the tough transportation choices people are making now.

Any rational discussion of drilling or not drilling ought to allow the views of the National Academy of Sciences which advocates reducing fossil fuel usage to fight global warming.

ATHINGORTWO
Cam is a KoolAid drinker shill for HuffPo et al. Don't waste your time. She's not a serious person.
Best wishes.

Vic
'Didn't know the Nazis were into public safety. As with taxes, if you'd like to avoid safety regulations, I suggest you move to Somalia. They have no taxes, government, or regulations there. It's a conservative paradise.

saftey confusion
it makes no sense that states are so concerned about persons wearing seatr belts and cars being equipped with air bags while there is moree movement to get rid of helmets for motor cycle riders.

From a libertarian point of view anything mandated by govt is always an infringement on personal choice. But like the horse at the water trough you can't force the horse to drink.

But if millionaires like pelosi and reid are so concerned about the woprking folks and the price they are apying at the pump they would fashion an energy bill to encourage other sources of energy.

Part of the higher cost of gas is that the country imports refined gas since there have been no new refineries built in this country in the last 30 or so years yet congress in their wisdom and their allegiance to the tree huggers prevents new refineries from being built.

Perhaps like her other inaction on draining the swamp pelosi might find time to put together a new energy bill since she only puts in a three day work week.

That is if it doesn't interfer with her private jet setting back home to calif at tax payer expess rather than flying commercail like the rest of the great unwashed she thinks can't function without her direction

To all my friends:
Come on over to Fountain Abbey. I've put up a couple of new posts for y'all to enjoy.

The first is another one on the Holocaust, and the second is a military story that is quite humorous, but sadly does have mature content, so some of you may want to skip over it.

The military story is entitled "The Lady In Red".

Hope to see y'all there!

COMBINATION OF PROBLEMS
Our domestic energy policy combined with international trade policy has taken us "into the storm".

We have allowed a minority of people, usually using taxpayer funds, to litigate the stoppage of beneficial energy projects. Now the liberals are against nuclear, petroleum, coal, hydro, and practically every other mode sans wind and solar - and they have reservations about some aspects of those too. None of which will ever satisfy our energy requirements.

We have domestic oil wells capped. We have Alaskan oil exported, and 40+ year old refineries. I believe with all the regulation now, modern refineries would be 10X more efficient than our "ancient" ones and modern technology could access oil with very little impact on nature. AND, I have yet to be convinced by non-conflict-of-interest scientists global warming is nothing more than long term earth climate cycles.

We continue to undermine our economy by importing more and more manufactured goods. That's goods made by non-Americans not paying income tax, not contributing to social security, and not spending their pay on goods and services which adds cynergy to our economy. All while making foreign citizens more affluent than before to desire more things such as CARS! Can you imagine trying to stop the Chinese from putting roughly a billion more vehicles on the roads?

Meanwhile, oil companies lobby successfully to slow alternative energy technology because it means never ending subsidies and grants available to them while continuing to generate huge profits on oil and fuel even when economic times are terrible.

Basically, we need a fresh set of the houses of
congress. People who better represent the bulk of Americans rather than the richer upper level. Good luck to us all, it will probably get worse. Sorry

Cam the commie
No thanks commie, I have already lived in the paradise known as Commiefornia. I left in 1977. People like you have ruined the State and are trying to ruin the rest of the country too.

Go eat some granola and go back to Huff and Puff.

Cam
It's only ridiculous to drive cars that idle at stop lights if you drive a George Jetson kind of vehicle. Though come to think of it, even his idles at the stop lights...

NOBODY is against developing new technologies to help reduce dependence on oil. We ARE working on it. The hybrids we have now are one step, but one step only, not the final solution. You cannot hurry progress. It takes the time it takes, and in the meantime we're just going to have to "make do" with what we have, quit burning our food and increase our production of petroleum to meet the demand (which China and India are leading, by the way) until time, research, testing, more testing, and subsequent market success make the next step more feasible and affordable.

Globull warming? Get real. Put a few feathers in your hair, grab a rattle and stomp around a campfire while muttering. It's about as effective against the warming that stopped years ago as your hybrid.



Avoiding the solution like the plague
There are two major factors affecting the price of crude oil, supply and the speculation market. Every time a nation from which we import oil, be it Middle Eastern or South American "sabres its rattle," the speculators add two or three dollars to the oil futures market. The panic cry that goes out is extreme fear of reduced supply.

We are at the mercy of two additional factors; regulation of the supply by oil producing exporters and the absolute refusal of our own government to allow the harvest of domestic resources that could eliminate that portion we now import from hostile foreign suppliers.

We have oil. We need oil. We are reaching a point of prohibitive prices for that commodity and the best our government can do is to initiate legislation to tap the strategic petroleum reserves.

The solution is a no brainer. That our own government would put us in a position to continue to be held hostage by hostile foreign nations, when we have the solution literally under our feet, defies logic.

We are not "Royal Subjects." Our future is not a function of the whim of government. When the people of this nation are engaged, we determine the path of government. It is about time to put ourselves back in gear.

Alive
I truly wish we had the maturity to systematically plan for the future and change habits when we need to. I see no evidence of our ability to do that.

"warming that stopped years ago" - since this has been suggested several times in this thread, the only meaningful reversal of global warming would be a growth in glaciers.

Didn't "Him" spend much of his ministry speaking out against materialism? Hasn't materialism exacerbated CO2 production? Are you aware that the WHO estimates global warming kills 77,000 people each year? So much for the Culture of Life.

Vic - CA started going downhill right after Prop. 13, hardly a communist effort. Is CA's economy really state-controlled? That's what communism is.

Dan
ANWR is estimated to be a 6-month "solution" for US oil consumption. What happens after that? West coast, gulf, then what?

I don't think anyone isn't aware that more drilling could be a short-term solution, but then what? It's just like Iraq, the Surge only prolonged the inevitable, at a great cost in lives and tax money.

Again, this is the heroine addict approach.

cam the commie
Of course you would say the State started going downhill after the people had a bellyful of taxes and enacted a law to limit them.

No the State started going downhill much earlier than that. It started going downhill when it started becoming a one party State and was taken over by all the crack-pots onthe left. The eco-idiots, the surrender monkeys, and the bums that live in Berkely and urinate in the streets.

I see that they are holding witches covens there now. How does it feel to be the laughing stock of the country?

Post script
It will also mean that we put a sock in the mouths of the alternative energy fanatics, while we meet our immediate demands for energy as we explore the solutions for the future.

Resistance is futile
To try to argue with Cam, the "sponge brain" is an exercise in futility. No common sense reply will deter the incessant retort of green propaganda. Let that one go folks.

.......
---1. Drill to bring the price down while expecting more technological development?.....Cam---

The hybrids didn't just magically appear when gas prices soared; they were in development long before and when gas was reasonably priced. It just makes more business sense now for auto makers to produce *more* hybrids.

Oil is a commodity we will always need. Oil is the fuel of industrialized nations. It’s one thing to power little queeer cars with batteries, but freight trucks, bulldozers, tractors, planes, machinery, etc needs oil, lots of it. We have a refining problem compounded with absurd bureaucratic regulations solely designed to enrich special interest groups. Congress does absolutely nothing intended to benefit the people, they are simply whores for special interests groups If we do happen to benefit it more than likely was an unintended consequence.

.......
----ANWR is estimated to be a 6-month "solution" for US oil consumption. What happens after that? West coast, gulf, then what?....Cam----

Dimwit, conservative estimates are 30 years worth.

clueless Cam
"Drill to bring the price down while expecting more technological development?."

So you think that research on 'new technology' comes with limited profits do you? Did you learn that in college, genius?

To make more they need to sell more, and more requires more drilling. I bet a 4th grader can understand this, why can't you?

The truth is we don't *need* new technology now. Our country is literally swimming in oil and Congress won't let anyone drill(or even build new refineries until last year).

Mexico is tapping oil reserves near our shores but we aren't thanks to chicken littles in Congress overstepping their authority.

When people complain when they make record profits, I respond: of course you have put up an insurmountable barrier to entry-government.

gettingolderwiser
You state: "Now the liberals are against nuclear, petroleum, coal, hydro, and practically every other mode sans wind and solar - and they have reservations about some aspects of those too. None of which will ever satisfy our energy requirements." This is clearly hyperbole. This certainly does not represent the views of the Democratic nominees for president. Obama for example has not ruled out clean coal or nuclear and he certainly supports hydro-power. I think most liberals that I know are realistic about what is possible and what is a pipe dream. None are wanting to turn our civilization back to the days of the horse and cart.

I worked in both solar (author of several books) and wind (was involved with the early major wind farms in California), and currently am working in PV electricity in association with Boeing and solid state lighting in association with OSRAM Opto. Whether photovoltaics will compete with other sources of electricity remains to be seen. The best triple junction cells now have an efficiency over 40%. So systems with an overall efficiency of 25% for PV are a near term reality. The main issue is the cost and the numbers are not so far off. I expect electricity generation for solar PV and several other forms of alternative energy to be very competitive with traditional sources within the next decade. But if it is not I have no problem with using traditional sources until an appropriate cost effective solution is available.

I would argue that there is in fact nothing really stopping the oil companies/refineries from proposing new oil refineries. The truth is that a billion dollar investment in a new refinery does not make good business sense. It is not the regulations and red tape that is stopping it. Can you name me one serious proposal for building a oil refinery in the last decade?




.......
-----Congress does absolutely nothing intended to benefit the people, they are simply whores for special interests groups.....The Great Satan™ -----

I think I was a little unfair. I didn’t give the DC Dregs credit for their blatant unconstitutional fleecing of the American taxpayer to fund their boondoggles and bribes [contracts]. Many in our Congress have also become proficient in bootlicking the sandals of our islamist enemies and being propaganda mouthpieces for the criminals running the narco-state of Mexico.

Gettingolderwiser 2
I agree with you on several points that you raise. But I am more of an optimist than you are. This comes from my working with others on cutting edge technologies. I expect that solid state lighting will make a major impact on the global energy budget for lighting in the next 15 years. Interestingly, countries like China actually have much more aggressive alternative energy programs than the US. They have a booming solar business (one of the richest people in China owns a solar business) and they are also are putting much stock in the solid state lighting area. (An entire town in China has only solid state lighting.) What is scary as you state is the fact that the US manufacturing base has been decimated. Also the cost of raw materials is much higher here than in China and combined with labor cost, etc. makes it near impossible to compete. (A little known fact is that China has a near monopoly on rare earth materials, used in solid state devices.)

I believe that the US still can be the leader in advanced electricity generation technologies, whatever this turns out to be in the future. We make most of the high efficiency PV cells in the world (Spectrolab) and it is possible to make a case for manufacturing of the new electricity generation technologies to be made domestically. See the January 2008 article in Scientific American which proposes a massive solar electricity plan for the US.

With regard to the issue of global warming I suggest you read many of the excellent articles at the website http://www.realclimate.org. I think it will make you a believer.





WFalicoff
Can you please explain, in layman's terms if you will, your sources for your claims, their estimates for immediate implementation for any alternative sources you put forward, the cost of the infrastructure to implement it, the immediate cost to the consumer and the proposed roll out for its implementation.

Additionally, will you please present the equivalent monetary impact of utilizing existing infrastructure and resource availability as an alternative?

Hope to hear from you soon.

Then and Now
This has been going on since October, 1973, almost 35 years. I remember then everyone, especially elected officeholders, demanding that we reduce our dependancy on foreign oil.

The way to handle American complainers is to simply and quietly look at them in the eye and watch as they shake their fists at the sky. Let them burn themselves out, then, like you do with little children worn out from temper tantrums, change their diapers and put them back to bed. When they wake up, they will have forgotten all about it.

Dan
There is no reason to believe that if we had an increase domestic oil supply that the price of gasoline would be any lower. Much of the increase in cost in oil is as a consequence of the drop in the value of the dollar (and the fact that oil producers can run up the price without impunity). At one time the US dollar was worth more than the Euro. That was not too long ago. The drop in the dollar is a consequence of many factors (Federal debt, fed rate, etc.). My question is who would own the oil in Anwar and who would benefit financially. My guess is the residents of Alaska would get a very small piece of the action. Big money will be made and it won't be given to the American people. We will just be ripped off by someone other than OPEC. It is not just hostile foreign nations that have made a killing selling us oil. How about North Sea Oil from the UK and Norway? How about the price of domestic oil? Things won't change with Anwar oil.

Conservation makes the most sense, as supply and demand forces may work. Although, if the price of oil is a monopoly nothing short of price control will be effective. I am not in favor of price control so I think a more energy efficient US is the answer. And there is nothing wrong with developing other sources of energy. And clean is better than dirty in my book, if one has a choice.

WFalicoff
Please direct your reply to my specific questions, not obfuscation of additional hypotheses.

Dan
Given the limitation of 2000 characters per post this is not the forum for such a lengthy discourse. However, I suggest you look at the January 2008 article by Scientific American which attempts to make the case for near 100% electricity generated by photovolatics and solar thermal, using land in Nevada, New Mexico. They did not consider the field we have been working in with Boeing using concentrating photovoltaics. In this system the PV cell is very small and special optics are used to concentrate the sun by factors of 600 to 1000 times. The system is tracking. You can read about it on the US Department of Energy webpage under the program the "Solar American Initiative". On the solid state lighting front many commercial products are out operating in the 40 to 60 lumens per watt range. This is five times more efficient than the incandescent bulb and does not have to use the dangerous materials in the compact fluorescent lamps(mercury). We anticipate the efficacy of these new LED lamps to go up to 100 lumens per watt (this already achieved) in the next 5 years. The cost is coming down very fast. Again you can look up the numbers on the DOE website in solid state lighting. What is interesting about the development of this new lighting technology is that the big gate keepers in lighting, GE, Philips, OSRAM Sylvania are all actively involved. They fear the competition from the Chinese and others. Competition will force them to sell the new technology. And it makes good business sense . This is why Philips recently purchased a start-up company such as Color Kinetics for just under 1 billion dollars US.

LEDs have also found there way more and more into including headlights. The first use of LEDs in automobiles was the CHMSL for the Cadillac Deville. Now it is commonplace and cost effective.

Bottom line technologies exist which will in the end solve our problem. I have no doubt about that.


Yeah Right
I am an electrical engineer, your post is well bull.

The big oil racket
Column was written by a corporate pig looking to save the oil industry anything he can, including a few bucks a barrel on cheaper oil in off limits areas. Where do I begin?

A sudden economic recession in Asia would be a plausible supply and demand explanation for driving oil prices down, but where is the plausible supply and demand
explanation for the increase in oil prices over the past year? Author suggests it is either diminishing supply in existing oil fields or increasing global demand, or both, yet fails to substantiate either claim.

We see the usual assumption that oil companies can be trusted because they are overseen so much, yet what good has this done when we know that OPEC still exists, and exists to fix oil prices (and control supply). We see again the assumption that oil companies cannot increase their output with their current assets and technology, and must have more places to drill, yet where does one get the right to simply make this assumption?

And nobody ever complained about the “distribution costs, marketing costs and profits” of gasoline. All
those costs come after the crude oil is paid for and refined into gasoline. (Author probably assumes most people don't know this...thinks he's smart.)

So everyone who sells something we all want should make excess profits like those of the big oil companies, huh? Why don't the prices of every other commodity we all want fluctuate as wildly as oil does? Why don't businesses that make these other products profit as richly as big oil does?

And why does author speak of oil as something so many people WANT, instead of something so many people
DEPEND on.

Author says oil industry needs profits? Every business needs to make a profit. The question is where does one draw the line. Author would have us believe there is no line to draw.

Dan 2
Please note when I made the first post to you, your comment directed to me was not posted. There is no need to use words such as obfuscation.

The current retail price for flat panel PV is around $5Kw (installed cost) and in larger quantities in around $3KW and prices are typically dropping 10 to 15% per year. (Source Solar Living Source Book by John Schaffer published in 2008. Components are for sale.) The DOE goal is for concentrating solar electricity to be able produce electricity at under 10 cents a kilowatt hour including the required infrastructure in the near future. A longer term goal is to produce electricity at perhaps 5 to 8 cents a kilowatt hour. This would use the current infrastructure for transmission. Whether this is possible remains to be seen. Some governments such as Spain are subsidizing the installation of PV systems in their country. They are buying solar produced electricity at around 50 cents a kilowatt hour!

I suggest you check out the DOE website on solar and solid state lighting. If you have trouble finding the relevant data I would be pleased to help you locate the information you seek.




The big oil racket Part II

Author says the best long term way to reduce prices is to increase supply (here he means drill out all the areas currently off-limits to drilling till they're as used up as the current oil fields). I think the best way to reduce prices is to either end our dependency on big oil, which may be doable, or force big oil
to produce what we need at what we want to pay for it. It may sound ruthless, but it is possible until they PROVE it's not. One way to motivate them is to make them afraid their product will go out of use unless they lower their prices.

The whole industry is highly subsidized. Oil wars, petro dollar dictators and fanatics, high cancer rates, and greenhouse gasses, are all big oil subsidies we pay for.

Getting off big oil will
will be easy and healthy to do so if we start now. Some people here have suggested hybrids. I have one with 68,000 miles on it and never had a
problem. And thanks to the regenerative braking the brakepads are still almost new. Mileage is much better than a standard gas vehicle, both highway and city. New smaller diesels are a good choice too.

Some say that hybrids would get also
get better mileage by being fitted with larger batteries. Also,
larger batteries could probably be plugged in at night and charged with many utilities' excess power during
the night, and then the owners could
commute to work with near zero cost the next day. A special metered outlet that provides free electricity when recharging a hybrid used for commuting would probably be in very high demand.

Anyone hear how pond scum should be able to help produce about 10,000 gallons of biodiesel per acre by 2010 or so? With oil prices where they are right now, I bet that biodiesel will be online by 2009.

Big oil should reduce prices soon or it will become something no one wants.

Dan
You may be an electrical engineer, but you apparently, know little or nothing about concentrating photovoltaic systems or solid state lighting. What exactly have a stated that is "bull"?

Some relevant facts
1) LLF recently (bought by Cree for 100 million US) sells solid state luminaires with an efficacy of 60lumens per watt and a flux output of 600+ lumens with a CRI of over 92.
2) LEDS are used in many cars in tailights, fog lights and even headlamps. For example the Cadillac SRX (designed by my company) uses 24 LEDs for each tail lamp, turn signal. At least 2 cars have been released with LED headlamps, the Audi R8, a Lexus and there is a soon to be released Cadillac.
3) Many megawatts of PV-based electricity have already been installed in countries such as Spain.

The only bull is coming from you.



Final word on this subject
The issue is the implementation and cost to generate the infrastructure to incorporate new sources of energy producing sources into the energy grid. Until or unless you can produce the projections of what it will take to implement new technologies, your point is moot.

You are obfuscating! The obfuscation is in the form of presenting emerging technologies that at this point have no plan for implementation into the existing infrastructure. You talk of milliwatt technologies that must be implemented into a gigawatt energy requirement.

Have fun with your experimental toys and I hope you have fun watching "das blinken lights."

Dan
The sentence I wrote in the previous post should have read:

What exactly have I said that you say is "bull"?

It seems to me I am providing all the detailed information and you just ask questions and make wild accusations. Is this the best you can do? Can you actually provide sources and technical information that disputes what I have written. I can tell you in advance that you can't since I am a VP of a multi-national company that is intimately involved with both solid state lighting and concentrating PV electricity generation. Unlike the wrap on Al Gore when he was mistakenly quoted as the "inventor of the internet", my colleagues and my associates in other companies are the inventors of these new technologies. Your credentials mean nothing to me.


Think Green: Drill ANWAR
Oil reserves in ANWAR were estimated to be between five and twenty billion barrels when surveyed decades ago. Since then, E&P technology has advanced greatly, so the true reserves are almost certainly much higher than 20,000,000,000 barrels that was estimated using old technology.

To err on the conservative side, let's assume reserves of twenty billion barrels. At a million barrels a day, ANWAR could supply about 6% of our total demand for 55 years. We could reduce our dependence on OPEC from 33% today to 27% after drilling in ANWAR.

Aside from the obvious economic and national security advantages of reducing dependence on OPEC, there's also the environment. Most oil-producing nations don't have the same environmental standards we have. That means the more foreign oil we buy, the more we are contributing to worldwide pollution. There is a quite literally a negative impact on the environment when we don't drill at home. This is something the Earth First cultists need to think about.

Dan's final word is worthless
From http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/mar2007/2007-03-30-02.asp
"SEVILLE, Spain, March 30, 2007 (ENS) - Europe's first commercial concentrating solar power plant was inaugurated today near the sunny southern Spanish city of Seville.

The 11 megawatt, MW, plant was inaugurated in the presence of the heads of the regional government of Andalusia and executives of the solar company Abengoa, whose parent company, Solucar, built the power plant."

I can name you many such plants. Apparently, somehow milliwatt systems turned in megawatts while you were asleep at your desk. I will be meeting with the company that did the facility in Spain in a couple of days at a major solar conference in San Diego. Look it up and learn something. And stop putting yourself forward as an expert.


Oh bother
Either answer my question with respect to the requirements of implementing new technologies into the energy infrastructure or shut up.

And your credentials and your claims sir, are highly suspect. Call me when I can expect a decrease in my energy bill or a reduction in the price of oil as a function of your "inventions." Oh, you do have a plan for that too I would imagine.


Face Reality
1. Until we can bring nuclear power plants on line, we will continue to need oil and gas;
2. Not drilling in Alaska, off-the Pacific Coast (California, Oregon & Washington)is short-sighted and fundamentally stupid;
3. And don't forget the Gulf;
4. Forget the silly rantings of Al Gore and the scientists bought and paid for by the global warming lobby, and use what we have: oil, natural gas, coal, etc.;
5. Continue research into alternate sources of energy, but don't forget we still have to function until they are discovered.

Good Article...Hits the nail on the head
I for one am tired of hearing co-workers or relatives complain about Big Oil or that President Bush has something to do with the rising costs of gas, and so on. Meanwhile, Democrats have been an obstruction on every attempt to ween ourselves off foreign oil. Drilling in ANWR...heck yes, should have been passed unanimously years ago, but Dems got in the way. More Nuclear plants so we can have more power and cleaner power? Naw, say the Dems and their enviro-whacko supporters. More offshore drilling? Naw, same story, enviro-whacko supporters get in the way. Its time we put our country and our people first and stop the lunacy in regards to drilling and in regards to nuclear power.

Even if true; at $5.00/kw-hr
that shows that solar is not feasible. Think folks; a installed cost of $5.00/kw. Currently the average cost in the U.S. is just over 7 cents per kw.

How many of you wish to increase your electric bill to $5.00 per kw?

Irresponsible Congress
For 40 years our politicians have known of the energy problem and the excuses have been no drilling in pristine anwar or off our coasts for fear of oil spills. Who the HELL KNOWS WHWRE ANWAR IS AND WHEN DO THEY PLAN TO VISIT THIS PRISTINE AREA? WHEN AND / OR WHERE WAS THE LAST OIL SPILL CAUSED BY AN OIL DRILLING OPERATION? ALL the USA HAS TO DO IS THREATEN TO DRILL AND WATCH OIL PRICES TUMBLE. COME ELECTION TIME I'LL REMEMBER ALL MY FLORIDA REPRESENTATIVES WHO ARE MORE CONCERNED WITH MAINTAINIG A 45 YEATR OLD FAILURE CALLED THE CUBAN EMBARGO THAN MEETING THE NEEDS OF ALL AMERICANS.

All I can say
is when I see the corner BP station in my home town charging $3.79 and the BP station in a neighboring town only three miles away charging $3.69, I have to ask how this is possible when BP supposedly only has a 10 cent margin to begin with. Then I see these same stations change prices three times in one day (up 5 cents, down 7 cents, up 10 cents). I have to conclude that someone at BP headquarters is monitoring traffic at all their stations and fine-tuning prices to reap the most of what traffic will bear at each location.

michigander
BP doesn't control what the local stations charge. Most companies don't. They control what the refinary charges, the distributer adds his own charge, then the local stion adds his charge.

What you will find is that some stations have a high profit margin and some have a low margin, with some cases actually being negative. The ones with a negative margin use gas as a loss leader to get people to the store in hopes tey will buy other stuff. Wal-mart does this through their affiliated stations.

Vic, thanks for the edification
I still believe there is an element of chicanery in pricing. I remember back in pre-historic times when we had gas wars. Of course, there were ten or more major domestic oil companies back then. Now we have a virtual monopoly with just a few companies, and they apparently have a gentlemen's agreement not to cut prices. If you don't believe this, tell me the last time you witnessed a good old fashion gas war. Vic, some on this board (not you) keep up the mantra that we should get off big oil's case. You know... "let the free market/supply and demand control prices, etc." Ordinarily I would agree with this because I'm pretty much a capitalist/free trader-type. But oil/gasoline can't be compared with other commodities. Take hamburgers, for example. If McDonald's charges too much, I can go to Burger King, or Wendy's, or to the local greasy spoon... or, I can buy a pound of hamburger and make my own. Not so with gasoline. I don't care what you say, the oil companies have us by the gonads and they're making the most of it.

I recall some news not too long ago
about a gas war in some town not close to me. There is one thing to remember though about gas wars. The per gallon cost has got so high that even if a station killed all of it's profit it would decrease the price less than 10 cents a gallon in most cases. A drop from 3.79 to 3.69 would not seem like much. Remember tghis site from MSNBC:

http://autos.msn.com/everyday/gasstations.aspx?zip=30301&br and=statefarm

Plug in your local Zip code and find the lowest price.

Oil??
Why not get rid of the 20-30 MILLION ILLEGAL ALIENS? That 1 step would increase OUR supply NOW! Then damn oil we need coal-liquid NOW WE have enough coal to run OUR cars and trucks for the next 250years.My shimper friends here on the gulf coast have just walked away from theyre boats because it takes 500 gallons of diesel to run theyre boats for a day.At 4.69 a gallon do THE MATH! Our food supply is going down the tubes while many of you are too damn lazy to mow your yards or clean your homes so you hire some WORTHLESS ILLEGAL ALIEN good grief get rid of these cockroaches!If you nit-wits on the right and on the left think your going to be and stay wealthy you have MAYBE 1 year OR OUR economy willbe in a complete depression. Wake up idiots DEMAND ACTION NOW NOT 10 YEARS fron now we DONT HAVE 10 years!!!!!!!!!!

Actually
Even if true; at $5.00/kw-hr
that shows that solar is not feasible. Think folks; a installed cost of $5.00/kw. Currently the average cost in the U.S. is just over 7 cents per kw.

How many of you wish to increase your electric bill to $5.00 per kw?
===============================================

Current cost for small "home systems" is about 29 cents per kilowatt - three to four times the average rates being charged by the power companies. I looked long and hard at putting in a system but decided it just wasn't worth the cost or hassle.

As for the high cost of fuel - look at congress. Deficit spending for 78 years has finally caught up with the US dollar. If it hadn't collapsed due to excessive borrowing a barrel of oil would be $68, and gas at the pump would be $2.25 - $2.50 a gallon.

The same goes for food and feed grains. Ethanol increased prices ever so slightly, the collapsed dollar lead to a near 100% increase.

As for drilling, if the Chinese can drill off the coast of Florida, why can't the US?

Hockey Goon
Actually that $5.00 per kw-hr came from an eco-poster who said he was an Engineer installing solar systems. I used his number just to show by his own argument that solar was not cost-effective.

Vic
$5/kW is the installed cost of a solar panel. kW is a unit of power. You're evidently paying 7 cents per kWhr. This is a unit of energy. You're comparing apples and oranges.

High Price of Gas>>>>>>
The war with Terrorism is costing the average non-Muslim more than Muslims.
In a Capitolist society the winfalls of war often effect the innocent bystanders. Since 9/11 the base price of crude oil has gone from $30 per barrel to over $100+. Why?
Several issues,
Reluctance by big oil interests, who are deeply stocked in Auto shares, in the developement of alternative fuel sources. More fuel efficient vehicles and getting rid of the clunkers from our streets.
Who drives these smog producing fuel guzzeling autos and trucks. The poor, the destitute, those who need to get to a job that is to far to walk to or take public transportation to. Many cannot find housing near a job others are not permitted. Yes predjidous does still reign in America, I know, because I was denied housing because I'm German Lutheran, not Jewish.
If we ran a one time take the crap off the road deal for under paid workers to own a newer more efficient vehicle we could save fuel.
Recind ther drive at 16 right, or recind the give a brat his car on their birthday. Most teens drive poorly, way too fast and only chat on the cell while driving like a blind man because mom & dad want nothing but to get them out of the house. We say its love while in fact its I had enough of them, get out of my sight!
I recently purchased a new `08 SUV V6. I was getting fuel one day and this fellow pulled up in a big 7 passanger w/kiddie seats V8 SUV 2004 that had a For Sale sign in the window. We chatted and he asked How I could afford it, he couldn't anymore, two 20 gallon tanks, at $3.799 just ate him up.
Well I think he answered it himself, why lug the extra weight around, I have only 16.5 gallons, 1.5 of it being reserve. I get 22 mpg intown and, that's right 22 mpg in town.

Cam; I was posting what the
eco-idiot said. If he meant that as $5.00 per kw unit I seriously doubt that his numbers are correct. Installation of small systems in the Southwest generally run $10K to 15K for houses that use around 1000 kw-hrs in a month.

If you must have airconditioning dues to high temperatures you will pay a lot more.

Given the lifetime of the system the costs are much higher than the average of 7 cents per kw-hr.

And BTW, having worked at a utility in generation for 30 years I am very familiar with KW-hrs.

High Prices of Fuel>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Continued from its post:
Lets reduce or altogether remove the long haulers from our highways. Reduce it to intercity pedalling or inter county. These trucks get on average 8 mpg and carry 100 gallon fuel tanks some two of them. Why carry the extra dead weight. They drive too often too fast too long and too discurtiest. Make long hauler freight a railroad job again. Diesel-Electric traind haul much more further and for less.
Reduce the number of short hop flights from airports closer than 400 miles away. Do tele conferrencing or schedule it so people can drive to meet. or take a Hyspeed transit rail, oh yeah America does not have any.
Use our technology better, cheaper and longer. Make it to last longer too. Recycle not junk it.
Invent new jobs from old Ideas that work and are good things or make it completely a new. Do something besides whine about it.
I do enough crying ever April 15th.

Vic & Cam
He guys, Vic use your solar panels to heat your water and heat your home. Install a Windmill to aide it and light your house, you could sell of excess KW hrs to locall utilities. or just to a neighbor. Be inventive.
Most problems with trying to say money is some ding bat that gets stupid laws passed to restrict these things because they don't like it.
Reduce your problems by doing the smart thing, pan all stupid local ordinances that waste energy and money. I would like to heat my water and even steam it if possible to turn a small generator near the home and produce electricity for A/C. I have to have it medically, Oh well old farts do need more gas LOL

CAM
WANT ELECTRIC CARS?
Each time you transform energy there is leakage in some form.
Burning carbon fuels in a boiler causes great loss in the form of light & heat.
There is further heat loss in steam lines and turbines to power generators.
Transmission lines leak energy from heat due to resistance and radiating an ionized field around each line.
There is additional loss in the transformers that reduce voltage for domestic consumption.
City power grids cause additional loss.
Changing electrical energy to chemical energy to store in batteries causes more loss.
Batteries loose energy due to leakage in storage.
Changing chemical energy back to electrical energy causes more loss.
Carting around heavy batteries uses extra energy.

The "Carbon Footprint" electric cars make far away where you can't see it is many times larger than the cars that use the energy directly instead of playing some placebo game to hide it elsewhere!

And then there is Ozone too!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please don't mention AGW here again.
People who try to sell that scam are labeled "Bunko Artists"
People who are deceived so easily they buy that scam have a sub human intellect!

Questions for Wfalicoff:
Your shameless plugs for PV and solid state lighting based on SA article, (I was a 30 year plus loyal subsccriber until became a leftie mouthpiece about 2 years ago) are all very nice. But solar energy is not a panacea. You see, there is this thing called night. It happens for an average of about 12 hours every day. There are also these things called clouds. They happen both day and night. How do you propose we keep making electricity at night? Stop the rotation of the earth?

Do you really think the greenies will allow us to cover an entire desert with solar panels? What about all the natural habitat, and the endangered species?

Of course, let us not forget that planes, trains and automobiles cannot run on LED power. Solar is nice in the desert, but transfering that energy over to the rest of the nation will require the building of huge high-tension towers and lines. Good luck getting them built with all the concern over ELF and cancer.

Solar panels on your roof may be cool, but massive solar farms are far from eco-friendly and there are few places sunny enough and large enough.


More questisions for Wfalicoff
You correctly noted "2) LEDS are used in many cars in tailights, fog lights and even headlamps. For example the Cadillac SRX (designed by my company) uses 24 LEDs for each tail lamp, turn signal. At least 2 cars have been released with LED headlamps, the Audi R8, a Lexus and there is a soon to be released Cadillac."

But you failed to mention that those vehicles all run on gasoline, lots of it. The fuel savings over the lives of these vehicles from using a smaller alternator do not make up for the added cost. But these are all high-end vehicles driven by people who care less about the cost of a gallon of fuel and price is no object.

Burtcher and rail:
Butcher wasked "Make long hauler freight a railroad job again. Diesel-Electric traind haul much more further and for less.
Reduce the number of short hop flights from airports closer than 400 miles away. Do tele conferrencing or schedule it so people can drive to meet. or take a Hyspeed transit rail, oh yeah America does not have any."

It is not a question of efficiency tonage/miles hauled per gallons burned. It is a question of distribution. TO haul freight directly to the small efficient factoryies mean building spur lines and huge switching yards and that means buying right-of-way, very expensive right-of-way, and local resistance to yet another railway crossing and more railroad crossing delays and deaths.


Cam
Well let's take the maturity thing to its logical conclusion.

If it's supposedly "more mature" to cut down on energy consumption, wouldn't it be the height of maturity not to use any kind of energy at all? Who decides? This could be fun! "I'm more mature than you!" Neener neener neener!

BTW, Jesus was never against wealth per se. It's the love of money that is at the root of so much evil, not the money itself or the earning of it.

Butcher
Evidently you haven't read the posts. It is NOT economical no matter how you slice the pie. To my knowledge there is no utility left that does not purchase back excess generation from wind and solar simply because the eco-idiots have interfered n the laws and had it dictated.

There are some utilities that are now requiring auto-cutout switches on your installation in the event that the grid power drops due to an interruption. That adds even more expense but it was found to be needed (the hard way). If the grid goes down and there is no switch, or the homeowner doesn't manually separate the grid, it leaves the lines energized up to wherever the fault is. Whenthe lineman comes to repair the line he thinks the line is deenergized because all of the utility breakers have been opened but the line is still hot from the back-feed. Lineman have been killed under these circumstances.

The best solution is GET THE GOVERNMENT AND IT'S MANDATES OUT OF THE ISSUE.

The Peoples Republic
Interesting!
It would appear that the People's Republic of California and it's governator would like to impose upon us all their notion of the "ideal life".
You will know that the libs are for real when they start allowing wind farms off Martha's Vineyard and the coast of California, more nuclear power plants in all parts of the US, and California starts producing it's own energy rather than "rape" the skys of Utah for it's coal powered energy that runs the air conditioners of SoCal residents. And when the governator, Hill and Obama elect public transportation and not their private jets and vehicles at western trail heads that say "earth first", "Save the whales/wolves/polar bears" are not suv's but rather hybrids or mountain bikes.
And, when Mr. Al Gore returns all the family fortune obtained by his father from his own 'dabblings' with "Big Oil".
Don't hold your breath, this is only the beginning of the fun.
And to think of President Bush being forced hat in hand to the Saudis asking for more(which they cannot supply) makes us Americans look completely ridiculous in the eyes of the rest of the world.
What fun!!

Vic
You're right that $5/kW is wrong. WFalicoff probably meant to say $5/W. I should have caught that as well. Nearly all inverters shut down if the grid shuts down. At least in my area, a disconnect is required as a failsafe protection. I suspect in SC, your 7 cents/kWhr is artificially low from subsidies to coal plants.

WFalicoff - Great posts. I defer to you on all subjects. No good deed goes unpunished. I'm reminded of the conservative poster with the Marine saying "Busting mine! Saving yours!" Keep up the great work.

Butcher - I have PV and solar water heating panels on my roof.

MyOpine - My understanding is that computer models show that plug-in hybrids would reduce GHGs even if they're powered by coal generated electricity. Germany's rail system is completely electrified. That's why their per capita gas usage is dramatically less than ours. We'd be wise to invest in that rather than more oil fields.

Great Satan - 'Not sure how oil profits fund research on more efficient vehicles.

Alive - There's nothing inherently wrong with consuming power, as long as it doesn't come at the expense of someone else. We're talking nuances, but the whole camel/needle story is about how difficult it is to be wealthy but not greedy.

CAM
There is only one thing in the world that it is possible to accurately demonstrate with a computer model.

You can demonstrate the author knows how to program a computer!
____________________________
Here in America we have a better solution for the energy problem.

Liberals whine about dependence on foreign oil yet block attempts to drill for domestic oil.
Liberals whine about people in foreign lands not liking Americans.
Liberals whine about "Global Warming & Carbon Footprints".

Liberal solution? Ethanol.
http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/business/biofuels-are- resulting-in-food-riots/442

Now we depend on corn imported from other Countries.
Now people around the World are angry because we have taken their food and driven prices up.
Burning ethanol produces just as much carbon per gallon as petroleum but gets much less mileage and therefore more carbon is produced.

I don't see how even a Liberal can make sense of this.

Cam
You would suspect wrong. The utilities get no subsidies on coal or anything else, only taxes and regulation. The rate structure here is three tiers, 7.1 cent per kw-hr for residential, app 10 cents per kw-hr for commercial, and bulk corporate (FACTORY)is by individual bid. The average for that generally runs somewhere areound 4 cents/kw.

When I retired the cost of generation at the place I worked was 1.3 cents per kw-hr. Transmission costs were about 1 cent and general overhead was about 1 cent. We were the cheapest plant in the system. My understanding was that the next cheapest was 1.9, then 2.1.

I suspect that nothing you have is close to that in CA.

Elitist Arrogance #2
So lets get rid of freeways and, by the way, lets get rid of BIG CITIES - they damage the health of children for the same reason. What nonsense! Before the industrial revolution children died much more frequently because they didn't have the advantages of modern technology. Now we have "Greens", "environmentalists",Sierra Clubs, crackpots like Al Gore, most of whom are really socialists in disguise who are seeing the present energy crisis (mostly of their making) as a golden opportunity to further their destructive agenda. This great country is on the road to ruin if we allow such people to continue with their nonsense.

charlie
Al Gore's idea of paradise is probably China circa 1970s--all the unwashed millions tooling along on their bicycles, occasionally making way for the Party elite in their chauffered limos.

Higher prices...
...encourage conservation, efficiency, and the development of alternatives. In real terms, and relative to what people earn, the price of gas still isn't much higher than 50 years ago.
so if it goes higher, yes that's uncomfortable, but change can be uncomfortable, and there needs to be an incentive. The market, if allowed to be free, does the job pretty well through the price system.

One of the things the government could do is to slack off on building more superhighways. That's a big subsidy to cars and trucks as opposed to, say, trains, which are more fuel efficient over long distances when heavily used. And how about freeing up restrictions on entrepreneurship in local transportation? Instead of relying on big buses traveling fixed routes, private firms could use smaller vehicles for door-to-door service, the equivalent of massive car pooling--but local laws often inhibit such innovation.

Meanwhile, do we really need a concerted effort to pump more oil out of the ground in the US? Why not go ahead and use up other people's oil, as long as they're willing to sell it to us? When it runs out, we'll still have some.

We need to to it all:
...drill in ANWR; drill off-shore; build nuclear power plants; build refineries; increase coal production; increase oil shale production; harness wind power, where possible; and always, conserve where feasible.

But do not touch our strategic oil reserves.

Ironically enough, President Bush is soon off to Saudi Arabia to beg & plead the royal family to increase oil production in order to alleviate our economic pain at the pump. This is precisely what we, as a nation dominated by liberals, refuse to do.

Go figure.

Thanks for another insightful article, Dr. Fuelner. Would that the liberals were open-minded enough to legislate responsibly, rather than by manipulated opinion polls of the uninformed.


DocW
What BS. The gas taxes are what pays for trains and mass transit, so if there is a subsidy it is the exact opposite. The highways subsidizethe trains and buses which NEVER pay for themselves.

I keep repeating the solution but it's contrary to liberal phylosophy.

GET GOVERNMENT OUT OF THE WAY

Blame the Fed and Treasury
The dollar has fallen in value more than 40% since May 2007. The price of oil during the same period went from $68/barrel to $126/barrel.

Demand for oil has actually been flat, and OPEC accordingly hasn't increased production. The problem isn't supply and demand, but a weak dollar.

If the dollar was revalued to its May 2007 levels, oil prices would plunge back to about $70/barrel.

The dollar is making a comeback and oil demand is slackening due to very slow growth in Europe and North America. A lot of speculators who bought November and December oil futures are going to be taking a bath.

Vic
See the attached link that describes the scam that is synfuel (coal) subsidies:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1005864,00 .html

The only truly freemarket transportation system our country has ever known was the streetcar system. US highways don't even come close to covering the costs of their construction, maintenance, and policing. Yes, European and many Asian countries heavily tax gas to support mass transit. They suffer far less than we are as oil supplies diminish. They also have world class cities that draw tourists from every where.

MyOpine - We would just about have to shut down our world if we got rid of computer models. And it's red state farmers that are the biggest champions of ethanol, not liberals. Time magazine (the one that condemns global warming) recently had a cover story condemning ethanol.

Cam
I don't need anything from Time magazine I know all about the synthetic fuel from coal scam. My youngest brother worked for a nationaly known company that ran one of those right up until the day the government subsidy expired. The plant was then shutdown and bulldozed up. Note: He worked in a different area but at the same site.

That is not the same thing as a coal fired boiler for a public utility. They have absolutely NOTHING to do with each other, other than the fact that they both use coal.

And BTW, note that that subsidy has EXPIRED and is no longer being paid out. It was also started by your main man Jimmy the idiot Carter if I am not mistaken.

You will also find that most conservatives believe nothing that Time magazine says.

wrt "Obscene Profits" for "Big Oil"
This factoid is a bit dated, however, I don't believe the parameters have changed that much. Besides, elected officials (SIC: panderers) have been marching out Big Oil company executives for show trials before Congressional committees for years... typically without success (other than to tell their unwary panderees, like Cam, "Yeah, we investigated those obscene profits.").

Just how obscene are the profits of Big Oil? The Cato Institute's Jerry Taylor says:
The [oil] industry has earned less profit than most other industries. Goldman Sachs looked at the earnings from the oil sector from 1970 through the end of 2003 and they found that return on invested capital in the oil sector was less than the U.S. industrial average. If you look at just the most recent quarters and look at net operating profits you will find that Yahoo earned 45 percent in the fourth quarter 2005. Other companies like IBM and Intel, they have made a lot of money. The oil sector itself made about 8.8 percent of an operating profit in 2005. That compares to about 8.5 percent for the economy as a whole. So it's fairly standard. There is nothing unusual about these profits. They're actually somewhat normal.

Vic
Yes, there are vast tracts of knowledge that conservatives ignore, but the rest of the world doesn't. And then conservatives wonder why their candidates can't get elected.

Olde - Nothing in my posts looks to the oil companies to lower prices. Unfortunately, it's only the high prices that are causing people to reduce consumption.

It was a pleasure
It was a pleasure reading the common sense postings from so many with an education in the subject. That said, I think the Democrats will bankrupt the nation before acting like adults. As as far as Obama saying he will consider nuclear energy, that's a long way from having a pair and supporting it. Whatever way the wind blows, there Obama goes.

Cam
I have forgotton more about energy production and science than you will ever know.

Yes we ignore things, primarily the bleating of liberal fools and their propaganda tools like Time magazine.

CAM
Time/Warner publications to a Conservative have about the same credibility as Huffington Post.

Brace yourself for an awful SHOCK!
Computers do exactly what you tell them to do and you must be specific.

Like it would be relatively simple to train your dog to go get the morning paper from your lawn.
If the paper landed on the walkway, the dog would still get it.

To program that exact information into a computer would require knowing the exact number of steps to each turn, where to pick up the paper, the exact number of steps in each direction to return and the paper would need to be in exactly the same place & position each time.

Computers do EXACTLY what you tell them.
Nothing less, NOTHING MORE!
And as I said before;
The ONLY thing you can prove with a computer is the author of the program knows how to program a computer.

Yes; Computers do much for our society.
In EVERY INSTANCE they do exactly what they are programmed to do, nothing more!

Programs predicting future climate?
Those same programs can't even tell you the weather today!

Republicans don't get it
What is it with you GOPers who seem to think the price of gasoline is based on supply and demand? Cal Thomas writes another love affair piece in defense of the big oil companies.

What you GOPers need to explain is how does the monopoly of only 5 major big oil companies coupled with government regulation equate to any form of supply and demand?

Big oil companies for decades have been the biggest contributor to GOP candidates while they bought up many smaller oil companies with a goal of monopoly. Face it, environmental rules and regulation favors big oil monopoly. (Don't forget, the GOP controlled all branches of government for 6 years and did nothing to ease such regulation for oil production.)

So now, thanks to limited competition, big oil can charge any price they want at the pumps regardless the price per barrel. Therefore, when you have a monopoly in conjunction with government regulation, it is not supply and demand.

WFalicoff
C'mon W, do you really believe campaign rhetoric will translate into actual action? Practically every election year, our people running for office are mostly rich folk needing their egos stroked and a chapter in future history books. Our inept congress continually screws bills up by adding earmarks to what would otherwise be good legislation. I think someone needs to remind Bush about veto power. I don't believe he has used it nearly enough. Face it, both parties will thwart each other to prevent the other from getting credit for making life better here. Both parties are to blame!

As for the cost of new refineries, how much did Exxon make in the first quarter? The players in the petroleum industry would rather not build them, and additionally, don't want any other potential or existing competitor to do it either. Besides, research grants and subsidies end up being bonuses, and which company wants to rush into something and miss out on all taxpayer handouts. Also, environmentalists dictate energy policy - how about the let it burn strategy for forest fires. Fires cut through forest faster than loggers!

Our foreign and domestic policy has created a huge labyrinth. Political status quo doesn't seem too promising. I would much rather see policy to strengthen the dollar and borrowing more Chinese money is a step in the other direction.

Another problem I've been discouraged about is the widening gap between the two parties in the houses of congress. If it were only the width of the isle separating them....

Please, don't we have more problems to solve than the steroids in baseball? Spend, investigate, spend, investigate,.....

I agree
some interesting and informative posts.

BigRed
Do you have any viable solution to remedy your conjecture about Oil Monopolies?
Oil is an International Commodity.
Do you know how many Oil Companies there are Worldwide?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now that you have told us what you think of Conservatives, I will tell you how most Conservatives regard most of you Liberals.
There are exceptions but for the most part, you Liberals have allowed others to do your thinking for so long your brains have atrophied from disuse and you are no longer capable of thinking for yourself.
You do as you are told, parrot the words you are told to support the issues you are told to support.
Otherwise you are guided by emotion and instinct like a dog or a cat.
You follow blindly without question or bothering to investigate even the most absurd cause.
That is why you are so easy to dupe into supporting confidence scams like the Spotted Owl, DDT hoax and Freon hoax and now the Carbon Credit Exchange scam.
You do bankrupt small business, disrupt peoples lives, cause great suffering and death but you don't have to see it and it makes billions of dollars profit for your masters.

Feel used?
You should feel used because your masters have just sold you to George Soros like a herd of sheep!
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.aspx?GUID={8 9BC7BB2-298F-4B8D-99DF-A9EA273A0559}

BigRed
What an apt name. Why is it that you communists think you can repeal the law of supply and demand.

The Soviet Union and Eastern Eurpope did so well under communism. Indeed, Western Eurpope is doing so well under socialism.

The Great Society's social programs and government regulations work so well also.

Why isn't it that ya'll can't understand the phrase:

Government can't solve the problem; government is the problem.

Cam
What exactly does obtaining energy at someone else's expense entail?

Is it putting power lines in convenient places (for maintenance's sake) that may interfere with a pleasant view?

Is it putting drill rigs past the horizon that nobody can see over-we can see only about 3-4 miles over the ocean at most? I've flown over the Gulf and believe me the hype about "unsightly rigs" is just that. They are rather sparsely scattered over miles of ocean-and so far as I could tell none were within sight of the coast. Even so, learning to make the presence of a drill rig just another piece of the furniture so to speak is a pretty good tradeoff if it helps keep energy costs reasonable.

Is it putting windmills into places where Ted Kennedy might have to learn to ignore the sight of them for conservation's sake?

Is it the presence of coal mines instead of millionaires' homes in parts of our mountains? Which do you think truly benefits more people-fancy homes or employment and inexpensive power?

What, exactly, is greed? Do you earn to your capacity, or are you willing to take less so as not to appear greedy? Why or why not? Do you hold shares in any major company? Would you be greedy if those shares didn't earn a certain percentage of profit? Why or why not?

Just a few questions that came to mind.

Vic and MyOpine, my GOP buddies
My friend, you not only missed my question, you attacked the messenger and not the message.

I do not have a solution to the problem about those who believe gas is based on the “invisible hand” of supply and demand. They are victims of propaganda as well as some of you. But your other questions in your statement have nothing to do with my argument.

I’m not a liberal, just a conservative who’s tired of the liberal ways of the GOP such as big spending, big gov, and so on.

My question to you, since you came after me, is do you agree or disagree with the facts of my argument? Can you address my argument instead of attacking me?

As I stated in my opening statement, I went after the GOP who believe in the supply and demand bit and stated why. But you failed to address matters of my argument.

Why is it that when you disagree with the GOP you are automatically a liberal or communist?

You see things as left or right, were I see things as right or wrong according to the constitution.

BigRed
The supply of gas is primarily restricted by prohibitions on drilling and building new refining capacity.
In CA we also have problems with generator capacity.
At fault?
ENVIRONMENTAL LUNATICS and cowardly litigators who cater to them.
________________
And if you don't want to draw friendly fire around here stop waddling like a Troll and quacking like a Troll!

Re: Bigred
Hmmm, I'm going to give you the benefit of not believing that you believe that bunch of BS you just spouted. First of all, There are over 100 major oil companies. Secondly, "Big Oil" buys crude on the spot market from countries which nationalized their oil pumping back when gas was 35 cents per gallon. It's an unfortunate, fact that the profit on a gallon of gas for "Big OIL" is around 1.5 percent per barrel. The station owner usually gets between 2 and 5 cents per gallon depending on how competitive the local market is at the moment. Gas is considered a loss leader to draw in customers to other revenue centers for gas stations as they mostly break even or lose a bit of cash on each gallon pumped.

In fact the cost of oil is controlled by organizational collectives like OPEC which are countries not companies. The price of oil is then inflated by speculators on the spot market. Where the speculator buys oil at 90 bucks a barrel and sells it at 95 bucks a barrel. These speculators don't explore for oil, they don't drill for oil, they just drive the cost of crude up in the futures market.

BigRed
When you post BS you get it returned in spades.

Maldain, thx for response
Thanks for the history lesson about oil, but can you address the issues of my argument please?

There is no invisible hand of supply and demand dictating the price at the pumps. Sorry to disagree with you, but there are only 5 MAJOR oil companies. Yes, there are many smaller ones but driving a few miles down the road and you will see all 5.

But again, you fail to address my argument by going on about how speculators set the price of the barrel. Who cares, not part of my argument.

You say I spouted BS, so I ask you what part of my argument is BS. ;)

oil prices
THE BIGGEST PART OF THE OIL SPIKE IS:

OIL IS PRICED IN USD.

THE USD IS DIPPING DRASTICALLY.

INFLATION IS EVIDENT IN THE GROCERY STORES ALSO.

WE GET HIGHER PRICES DUE TO THE DOLLARS FALLING VALUE. HOW MANY ARE GETTING AN INCREASE IN PAY TO KEEP UP?

IN CALIFORNIA, THE BIGGEST PROBLEMS IS THE FUEL COCKTAIL MANDATED BY THE STATE AND FEDS.

1 REFINERY SHUT DOWN OR FIRE AND WATCH THE SPIKE.

REFINING CAPACITY IS ALSO A FACTOR IN PRICE.

FARM PRODUCTS ALSO ARE BEING DIVERTED TO FUEL PROCESSING.

THE GLOBAL ECONOMY DRIVES PRICES OF FOOD AND OIL. JUST UP FOR NOW.

CONGRESS WANTS TO INVESTIGATE OIL CEO'S?
NO, LIFT THE STUPID RESTRICT.ONS ON OFF SHORE DRILLING, ANWAR DRILLING. BUILD NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS. CHINA IS NOW IN THE CONSTRUCTION OF ~ 40 NUKE PLANTS. WE ARE LOSING GROUND FAST.

THE FRENCH MAKE 80% OF THEIR ELECTRICITY FROM NUKE PLANTS.

WHY CAN'T THE U.S. THAT WAS THE FIRST NUCLEAR NATION? FOLLOW THE MONEY GOING TO D.C. AND YOU WILL KNOW WHY.

SHAKIN IT HERE BOSS,

Harvey
Lancaster, Taxifornia
dial 1 for english

BigRed
The issues of your post HAVE BEEN DEALT WITH!

And as to you SAYING you are a conservative, while you make a blanket condemnation of all Conservatives;

It is quite common for some ultra stupid newbe Communist to come here pretending to be a Conservative, Independent, Constitutionalist, Libertarian, etc., just about anything but the Communist they are.
If you think you will avoid the stench of Communist or Pedophile or anti-war activist, or pro Amnesty Liberal by claiming to be something you are not;;;

Your posts pin a badge on you.
Your posts literally scream "Communist"
You come here putting all Conservatives in one bag and attacking only AMERICAN oil companies.

Are you one of Nancy's Party Favors?
http://hollycrud.com/2006/10/nancy-girl-wants-old-gays-with -young.html

MyOpine, my comic relief buddy
Man, you are really upset about my post aren't you? I really don’t see how you have enough evidence to determine my political affiliation. But that’s cool.

My article was based on the author’s article and I disagreed with his post that basically states gas price is set by supply and demand. My argument, which no one has refuted yet, is propaganda and I state why.

A few have responded emotionally to my post, but has not made a valid argument proving me wrong. Therefore, I ask the question again:

“What you GOPers need to explain is how does the monopoly of only 5 major big oil companies coupled with government regulation equate to any form of supply and demand?”

Just a simple question really, but instead I’ve been called a liberal and a communist just for asking. Partisanship has a funny way of controlling ones’ thought, which can sometimes deny common sense.

BigRed
The issue you raised regarding the article as been addressed and you have been refuted THREE TIMES.

This issue of you CLAIMING to be a Conservative?
LOOK AT YOUR POST DUMMY!
YOU ARE USING STANDARD LEFTIST TERMINOLOGY!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Sorry MyOpine, I can't find it
Can I ask you a favor? I can't find in my posts who answered my question. Which was:

“What you GOPers need to explain is how does the monopoly of only 5 major big oil companies coupled with government regulation equate to any form of supply and demand?”


Could you please post it again please so I can post an apology for being wrong, Thx bud.

BigRed
Typical of Communists you are trying to change the subject.
Your original post has been refuted 3 times.

AND You stupid Communist, you are still using Leftist terms in your posts.

YOU ARE A LIAR AND A FAKE!
AND a Communist Troll!
Like this;
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29 612

AND; Here is your Agenda;
http://web.archive.org/web/20020215003619/www.dsausa.org/pc /pc.progag.html

AND; BigRed Commie, you have pinned a badge on yourself.

You Phony Conservatives
Some of you have responded to my post regarding my piece based on not common sense but pure emotion, so I ask you this?

Since I’ve been considered a liberal and a communist, I must ask you why do you defend the GOP when in fact it’s been acting liberal and the socialist party?

Explain how you can defend GOP’s increased social spending far more than the Clinton Administration?

How do you defend the GOP who has increased the size of government more than the Clinton Administration? Such as Homeland security…with open borders makes lots of sense! Of course it’s ok if the GOP does it, but if the Democrats created such a government expansion, you would be livid.

The GOP, like its buddies the Democrats, both support illegal immigration. You defend this?

Can you explain why Sean Hannity endorsed the most liberal GOP presidential candidate Rudy Giuliani? Thank God hes gone!

Do you know what conservatism really is? It’s to conserve the visions of the founding fathers and those values that made America great. Does the GOP represent those values? Just look at your presidential candidates. I say no. And when you continue supporting the lesser of 2 evils, you still get evil. Now you have the liberal McCain and I’m lmao because the GOP is not conservative, unless you can prove otherwise.

Bigred
We have had many Communists come here pretending to be Conservatives but if we had a prize for the funniest you would win, hands down!

I went back to the beginning and studied your posts.
You come here parroting standard Communist propaganda, using standard Communist vernacular and you are stupid enough to think you can fool Conservatives who see that same rhetoric here every day?

HOW IS IT POSSIBLE FOR ANYONE TO BE THAT STUPID.
I think you are faking it!
This is some kind of ruse;
Satire! Like Loyal Democrat, Right?

You are not just a fake Conservative.
You are a fake buffoon too.
You are putting us on. No one can be so dumb!

Please address my argument, if you can
My friend, you have yet to answer any question I ask. Instead you attack me personally. Can you at least prove me wrong? or address at least 1 question I ask? Personal attacks mean you lack enough intellegence to have a debate with me. If you cannot answer my questions, I will no long respond to you.

Bigred
DEBATE? YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO DEBATE!
YOU CAME HERE UNDER FALSE PRETENSE!
YOU STILL DON'T GET IT!
YOU HAVE NO ARGUMENT!
YOU ARE A FAKE! A LIAR!
YOU YOURSELF ARE A LIE!

And about the dumbest liar I have ever seen!

Debate?

Democrats who come here to debate political issues are very rare treasures.
Most Democrats wanting civil debate rarely ever come here due to the animosity generated by pathetic Liberal perverts.
They come to this Heritage Foundation site expressly to insult Republicans.
Their conduct alone precludes civil debate and confines them to an area of insult exchange.
Most members avoid them like dog poop on a sidewalk by paging past their infantile posts.
A few members amuse themselves by disturbing the pervert poop.
The stench usually produces some standard Liberal lies & innuendo to amuse us.

You have been hilarious! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

How to cut the price
The price could be greatly reduced by hiring the oil companies to drill, pump, refine, and deliver OUR offshore oil to us. There would be no speculators’ add-ons, no foreign nations’ price, no oil-tanker charges and oil spills. No dilution-with-alcohol cost would give us a full gallon of gasoline.
Repealing all the hundreds or thousands of taxes, and replacing them with ONE TAX AND DONE for each level of government, would alone reduce the price of gas by three-sevenths (43%).

If government hadn't been taking
half the operating capitol of every business and industry since WWII, we would have all these things now, because our companies would have used their operating capitol to develop them and make them available in large amounts at reasonable prices.
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