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Monday, October 27, 2008
Dr. Paul  Kengor :: Townhall.com Columnist
God and Barack Obama
by Dr. Paul Kengor
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Let me begin with what I hope is a credibility enhancer: For daring to write a book on the faith of Hillary Clinton, I was questioned by fellow conservatives, especially for calling Mrs. Clinton a “lifelong, committed Christian.” In the final chapter of that book, I included a brief section on the faith of Barack Obama, where, taking him at his word—based on a major June 2006 speech on his faith—I felt confident in reporting, “Obama is a Christian.”

I’m not disputing that here. Since then, however, I’ve taken a careful look at Obama’s faith, and there are quite a few things that stand out as historically extremely unusual, and in some cases unprecedented for a potential president. They are worth knowing, especially given the secular media’s adoration of the man.

Indeed, journalists are so worshipful of Obama that they are unfazed by his two decades of membership in the church of a ranting, blasphemous preacher who mocked everything from Bill Clinton to America itself—and who married Obama, baptized his children, and whom Obama considers a mentor and the inspiration for the title of his best-selling book. That double standard has struck even the likes of atheist Christopher Hitchens. After eight years of wailing and gnashing of teeth over a Christian Republican president, secular liberals have undergone a Saul-like conversion.

On rare occasions, however, the press has offered constructive analysis of Obama’s faith. The most revealing look remains a glowing profile in Newsweek a couple of months ago. The Newsweek offering was remarkably one-sided, even venturing into evangelical phraseology, the shared-language-of-believers style characteristic of Religious Right publications. I counted 10 examples of phrases like, “He found Christ,” “accept Christ,” “Obama went to Jesus.”

Nonetheless, even in this unusually un-critical article, much can be mined about Obama’s faith. Most salient is this inescapable conclusion: More than any presidential nominee this close to the White House, Barack Obama’s faith is a patchwork of divergent beliefs, philosophies, and influences, from what Newsweek called a “Christian-turned-secular mother”—her own views a product of “two lapsed Christian” parents and a Bill Moyers book—to a “Muslim-turned-atheist African father” to a stepfather with a “unique brand of Islam.”

As for Obama’s personal path, Newsweek noted how Obama, in his younger years, enjoyed, on one hand, Augustine, and then Nietzsche and Graham Greene. Obama hopped and groped his way through Islam, Buddhism, Catholicism, Protestantism, asceticism, and eventually settled at the political church of the Reverend Jeremiah Wright.

Most interesting is what Newsweek revealed about Obama and his current family: His wife, Michelle, “also didn’t go to church regularly as a child.” Neither really began regular attendance until they were married. And only then, their choice was Reverend Wright. On that, Newsweek reported approvingly: “The cross under which Obama went to Jesus was at the controversial Trinity United Church of Christ. It was a good fit.”

The couple, writes Newsweek, attended “fairly often—two or three times a month.” That changed, becoming less frequent, with the birth of their first child. Normally, the arrival of children is the blessed event that drags young couples to church—the Bushes, the Clintons. For the Obamas, however, the hassle of getting the baby out of the house for a packed service was an obstacle. “So,” explained Barack, “that would cut back our involvement.”

The Obama girls have never attended Sunday school—a definite contrast with most White House children. Even wayward president’s kids like Ron Reagan, a proud atheist, was taken to church every Sunday. Obama explains of his daughters’ religious education: “I’m a big believer in a faith that is not imposed but taps into what’s already there, their curiosity of spirit.”

Once Obama ran for the U.S. Senate, he skipped church for months at a time. Now that he publicly parted ways with Reverend Wright, reports Newsweek with a gentle wink, “Obama is a little spiritually rootless again.” Newsweek neglected to mention that Obama often appeared in churches in 2007 for strictly political purposes—i.e., to campaign in houses of worship, a practice that launches liberals into fits of screaming rage when done by Republicans.

On the plus side, there are some discernible spiritual practices in Obama’s life: family grace at mealtime, daily prayer, Obama “sometimes” reading the Bible in evenings, and inspirational emails zapped to the senator by his “religious outreach team.” Yet, even with that nod to something of a religious routine, one senses that Obama is still trying to reconcile, as Newsweek described his early life, “his rational side with his yearning for transcendence.”

After demonstrating at length that Obama’s belief system is an amalgam, unorthodox, and undisciplined, Newsweek wrapped up with a shot at his detractors: “Some on the right say his particular brand of Christianity is a modern amalgam—unorthodox, undisciplined….”

No, Newsweek, that’s what you say.

One can see here another reason the secular left embraces Obama: His entire religious life, including the spiritual development of his family, is relativistic—an ever-probing quest, a realization of no single truth. The left likes this Democrat more than, say, a lifelong Baptist like Bill Clinton, a lifelong Roman Catholic like John Kerry, a lifelong Methodist like Hillary Clinton, a “born-again” southerner like Jimmy Carter. Here’s a believer secular liberals can accept: a relativist in the most expansive form.

A President Obama would bring to the office the most unconventional religious portfolio of any president in a long time, arguably the history of the American presidency.

But to get there, the freshman senator hopes to win just enough of those moral-religious “values voters” who twice made the difference for George W. Bush. Can Barack Obama do that?

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About The Author
Dr. Paul Kengor, author of spiritual biographies of Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush, has just published God and Hillary Clinton and The Judge: William P. Clark, Ronald Reagan's Top Hand. He is a professor of political science and executive director of the Center for Vision & Values at Grove City College.

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Scott 3
cont . . .


Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.”


Jen: Well, anyway, I just wanted to add that. And maybe ask yourself who do you think has studied scripture more; a 2000 yr. old Church or you? Who has had the world's best theologians, historians, and Bible scholars study in depth Sacred Scripture? I'm just not sure how you could posibly not think that perhaps you are missing something.

Have a good weekend. Happy All Saints Day!

scott 2

cont . . .

“It is no wonder, then, that those who deny the existence of purgatory tend to touch upon only briefly the history of the belief. They prefer to claim that the Bible speaks only of heaven and hell. Wrong. It speaks plainly of a third condition, commonly called the limbo of the Fathers, where the just who had died before the redemption were waiting for heaven to be opened to them. After his death and before his resurrection, Christ visited those experiencing the limbo of the Fathers and preached to them the good news that heaven would now be opened to them (1 Pet. 3:19). These people thus were not in heaven, but neither were they experiencing the torments of hell.

Some have speculated that the limbo of the Fathers is the same as purgatory. This may or may not be the case. However, even if the limbo of the Fathers is not purgatory, its existence shows that a temporary, intermediate state is not contrary to Scripture. Look at it this way. If the limbo of the Fathers was purgatory, then this one verse directly teaches the existence of purgatory. If the limbo of the Fathers was a different temporary state, then the Bible at least says such a state can exist. It proves there can be more than just heaven and hell.”

“Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.


Scott 1

Hi Scott, not sure if you check back in on this thread or not, but just wanted to encourage you to look into why The Church teaches purgatory. Read the scripture passages I posted and see how much sense it makes that there is in fact a place of purgatory. Purgatory has been believed since the beginning of Christianity. One cannot argue that simply because the word “purgatory” is not used in the Bible, then it must not exist. The same could be said about the word “trinity.”

From http://www.catholic.com . . .

“Fundamentalists may be fond of saying the Catholic Church "invented" the doctrine of purgatory to make money, but they have difficulty saying just when. Most professional anti-Catholics—the ones who make their living attacking "Romanism"—seem to place the blame on Pope Gregory the Great, who reigned from A.D. 590–604.

But that hardly accounts for the request of Monica, mother of Augustine, who asked her son, in the fourth century, to remember her soul in his Masses. This would make no sense if she thought her soul would not benefit from prayers, as would be the case if she were in hell or in the full glory of heaven.

Nor does ascribing the doctrine to Gregory explain the graffiti in the catacombs, where Christians during the persecutions of the first three centuries recorded prayers for the dead. Indeed, some of the earliest Christian writings outside the New Testament, like the Acts of Paul and Thecla and the Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity (both written during the second century), refer to the Christian practice of praying for the dead. Such prayers would have been offered only if Christians believed in purgatory, even if they did not use that name for it”

Ben is right 2

But you are quite right to believe that once we die, we are out of time. If we have rejected God before we die, hell will be our destiny. After we die, we can no longer gain any merit for ourselves. And although purgatory means we will eventually get to heaven, it also means we might not be completely purified yet to enter. In purgatory, we can continue to pray for others (not ourselves) and we can gain the benefit from the prayers of others. That’s why it is so important that we pray for our deceased loved ones. We can help them get to heaven through our prayers (as long as they haven’t already chosen for themselves, hell). I realize I am not doing justice to the explanation of purgatory, but I’m not sure how much you are interested. If you are really interested, I can fine tune my response or provide you with some links, but that is about it in a nutshell.

And if one really thinks about it, it makes an awful lot of sense and is completely in line with scripture.

And I’m not quite sure what you mean by your comment that there are more important issues than purgatory. I wouldn’t really rate one truth as more important than another. It is what it is.

I am very interested in your response to my comments. -Jen

Ben is right 1

Ben is right: How did this discussion get into a discussion of purgatory? However, there are much more important issues than purgatory. We're responsible for our own salvation, in that only we can choose to accept the gift of Jesus Christ. If we haven't made that choice before we die, we're out of luck. You can't make choices after you die. Time's up.



Jen: Hi Ben is right, I guess the topic got onto purgatory b/c one poster claimed Obama must be a Christian if he claims to be b/c one need only to profess his Christianity in order to be saved. Another poster commented on how we are not simply saved by faith but by faith and works. In his posts he criticized those preachers like Billy Graham who say all you have to do is say you are a Christian and you will be saved saying there is no scriptural basis for making such a claim and in fact scripture shows we are saved by faith and works. The poster then went on to say there are many “man made” beliefs out there that have no scripture basis like purgatory.

This is where I felt I needed to jump in to say that in fact the idea of purgatory is hardly some silly notion concocted on a whim, but in fact in entirely based on scripture.


I'm not going to read all the comments
So.... a question.

How did this discussion get into a discussion of purgatory? Not only that, but a discussion of purgatory by someone who actually knows what the biblical basis for a belief in purgatory is. That's amazing to me. It almost makes me want to read the comments and jump in. However, there are much more important issues than purgatory. Plus, purgatory doesn't exist, unless it's just a place for dead people to hang out until Jesus comes back. We're responsible for our own salvation, in that only we can choose to accept the gift of Jesus Christ. If we haven't made that choice before we die, we're out of luck. You can't make choices after you die. Time's up.

Scott 7
Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory.

Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God's purification of the righteous at their death.

Jen: Once again, "It's all scripture baby!"

Scott 6
Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God's temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).


Scott 5
Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is "zemiothesetai." The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, "but only" (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase "but only" (or “yet so”) in the Greek is "houtos" which means "in the same manner." This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works).


Scott 4
Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.


Scott 3
Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection.

Scott 2

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will

Scott 1
Hi scott, beautiful words to chas, with a few exceptions . . .

purgatory is completely scripture based . . .

From scripturecatholic.com

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.


Thanks Scott...
Thanks Scott...

Chas - Part 7 of 7



chas writes: “I don’t think one size fits all…”


But doesn’t God’s perfect plan of salvation *fit* all?

Doesn’t God’s Word in the New Testament apply equally to everyone, both Jew and Gentile alike?

Is there is any partiality or favoritism by God in this age?


"Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: [35] But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." (Acts 10:34-35, KJV)


I’m late for bed, thank you for the opportunity to discuss these things Chas. The only truth I can be sure of is God’s Word, and so it is God’s Word that I always try my best to present, properly and in context, “rightly dividing the word of truth.” (cf. 2 Timothy 2:15)

I am far from perfect of course, so I always encourage people to check anything I say against God’s Word in the Bible, and I try to make that easy to do :-)


If you (or anyone else) are interested, I encourage you to investigate this non-denominational Bible study website: http://www.gospelway.com

Everything there is documented and cross-referenced with book, chapter and verse for easy checking and verification. They don’t ask you to take their word for anything, but to examine the Scriptures and see for yourself “whether those things were so” (cf. Acts 17:11).

Thank you again,

Scott

Chas - Part 6


chas writes: “It is a different message for a different group of people…”


I understand that we need to assess a person’s level of knowledge and begin teaching from there, but the message is the same, there is only one plan of salvation, not many…


“[There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism, [6] One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.” (Ephesians 4:4-6, KJV)


"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)


“But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.” (Luke 11:28)


“And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.” (Luke 8:21)


“If ye love me, keep my commandments.” (John 14:15)


“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46)


“Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” (John 14:23)


"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." (1 John 5:3)

Chas - Part 5


chas writes: “Regardless, now the US has drifted much further away from God, and much more is necessary…”


What more could possibly be necessary than God’s unchanging plan of salvation, which He determined before the foundations of the world were laid?

Is God not perfect?

Is there anything man could possibly do to improve upon God’s plan? Particularly considering man’s position, relative to God?


The doctrines and commandments of men change with the times, sometimes seeming even to change with the direction of the wind.


But the Word of God does *not* change. It is always the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow…


~~~



chas writes: “I interpret John 3 to be the minimum, Jesus speaking to someone who had all his life, been 90% there, and needing the 10% more, believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and ask for forgiveness.”


Okay, but unless you can prove that position with Scripture, plainly and clearly, without contradicting other Scripture, why risk your soul on a subjective interpretation (i.e., opinion)?

“There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.” (Proverbs 14:12, KJV)

“For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD. [9] For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.” (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Chas - Part 4


chas writes: “When I was a trained councilor, at one of his crusades, most of the people I spoke to, had been saved previously, and had to keep coming back over and over, because it wasn’t working…”


If someone has been saved according to Scripture, by obeying the Gospel of Christ (as opposed to the words and wisdom of men), they do not need to be “saved again”, they need to repent of whatever sin they are caught up in, and seek God’s help to turn away from sin. Such a person can then be restored to the Lord’s church.

But if a person has NOT been saved according the Gospel of Christ, then he (or she) needs to be saved for the first time.

Regarding “coming back over and over, because it wasn’t working”, how could it be “working” if they were following a false gospel?

Again, it matters not at all what I say, I don’t ask anyone to take my word for anything; if anyone can show me in the Bible where the “Sinner’s Prayer” is a means to salvation, explaining away all the Scripture that contradicts the doctrine of the “Sinner’s Prayer” or “praying through”, then I’ll believe it. But if it can’t be reconciled with Scripture, then no matter how fancy we dress it up, no matter how much we might want to believe it or take comfort in it, it is a false gospel.

Plain and simple.


And that’s a serious matter, because believing a false gospel has eternal consequences.

"So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty." (James 2:12, KJV)


According to God’s Word, on Judgment Day we will each appear before the Judgment seat of Christ (cf. Romans 14:10) and give an account of ourselves (cf. 2 Cor 5:10).

How will anyone be able to plead that they were just following the words of men, when the Word of God plainly says not to follow the words and wisdom of men, and when the Word of God plainly teaches things that are in contradiction to so many commonly accepted doctrines of men?

Chas - Part 3


chas writes: “Maybe the people in the US were a lot closer to God back then, and John 3: 16 was enough… Maybe not…”


“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)

That verse is the Word of God, and I believe it is absolutely true. It should not, however, be taken out of context in order to teach something that cannot be reconciled and harmonized with the rest of God’s Word on the subject.

The only time the words “faith” and “alone” appear in the same verse in the entire Bible is in James 2:17 - “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (KJV)

The only place in the whole Word of God that the words “faith only” appear together is to say that “faith only” is not enough:

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (James 2:24)


The book of James, chapter 2, destroys the doctrine of “faith only”, so it is not popular with proponents of that doctrine. But James was inspired by God, it is Scripture, and all Scripture was given by inspiration of God:

“All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Timothy 3:16).


Again from James, chapter 2:
“Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:18)


We certainly cannot “earn” salvation by works, but neither can we receive salvation by God’s grace from “faith alone”. In order to accept “faith alone”, one needs to reject everything else God’s Word says on the subject. No one would suggest doing that for any other subject, so why would anyone do it with the most important one?

Chas - Part 2


chas writes: “I don’t know why like preachers like Billy Graham, had this compulsion to teach the message that was the minimum, to be saved…”


I cannot find in Scripture where there are any degrees (i.e., minimum, maximum, etc.) of being saved. In the parable of the vineyard laborers (Matthew 20:1-16), it is clear that those who worked all the day long received the same reward as those who began at the 11th hour. Either we are saved, or we are not. A middle-ground like “purgatory” is an invention of man that cannot be reconciled with God’s Word.

As far as Billy Graham is concerned, I don’t know why men turn away from the plain Word of God, to the doctrines of men and the ways of the world. It can happen to anyone, so it is something to be guarded against at all times:

“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:” (1 Peter 5:8, KJV)


I suspect that Billy Graham is a wonderful human being, but a false teacher is a false teacher. It is my understanding that Billy Graham teaches reciting the “Sinner’s Prayer” as a means to salvation, but nowhere in all the Bible is any such thing taught. It is ‘another gospel’ (e.g., Galatians 1:8-9), a false doctrine of man. Millions of people have believed Mr. Graham’s false doctrine, and believe they are now saved.

But we will not be judged according to the teaching of Billy Graham, or of the Roman Catholic Church, or of any Protestant church; we will be judged according to the Word of God:

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.” (John 12:48)

It is not for me to judge, it is for God to judge, and He has told us how He will judge, so that there will be no surprise.

Chas - Part 1


Hi Chas, thanks for your reply. I haven’t had much time to engage in discussions around here lately, but I had a little time tonight and I’m glad for the opportunity.


chas writes: “I think I’m agreeing with what you said…”


That doesn’t happen often around here, LOL!

I do appreciate your comment, and it is nice to find agreement, but it really doesn’t matter at all what I say, the only thing that matters is what God’s Word says. That may sound flippant, but I don’t mean it that way, I’m completely serious. I could be wrong, but the inspired Word of God in the Bible is not wrong, so anything I might say (or that anyone else might say) must always be compared against God’s Word, to see “whether those things were so” (cf. Acts 17:11).

It is the only way to be sure.


Scott, if I can throw in my 2 cents…

I think I’m agreeing with what you said…

I don’t know why like preachers like Billy Graham, had this compulsion to teach the message that was the minimum, to be saved…

Maybe the people in the US were a lot closer to God back then, and John 3: 16 was enough…

Maybe not…

When I was a trained councilor, at one of his crusades, most of the people I spoke to, had been saved previously, and had to keep coming back over and over, because it wasn’t working…

Regardless, now the US has drifted much further away from God, and much more is necessary…

I interpret John 3 to be the minimum, Jesus speaking to someone who had all his life, been 90% there, and needing the 10% more, believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and ask for forgiveness.

When the apostle Paul is preaching to the polytheist, degenerate Roman Empire, who is 10% there, and needing 90% more to go, Paul says this summary of the entire epistle to the Romans, in Acts 26, 17-18 God said to Paul “I am sending you to the Romans, to open their eyes, to turn them from darkness to light, from the power of Satan to God, that they might receive the forgiveness of sins, and a place among those who are sanctified, by faith in me.”

It is a different message for a different group of people…

I don’t think one size fits all…

Enough Evidence To Convict?
If Obama was arrested for being a Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict him?

I think he would beat the wrap.

Eileen - What does the Word of God say?

Eileen wrote: “I've always been taught in my very fundamentalist church that anyone would be saved if they proclaimed that Jesus was Lord and submitted to Him for salvation.”


What does the Word of God say we must do to be saved?

“Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?” (Acts 2:37)

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 2:38)


Simply believing is not enough, even devils believe:

“Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” (James 2:19-20)


What did Jesus say?

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." (John 3:5-7)


There are 9 examples of people being born again in the Book of Acts. Every single one ends in baptism:
Acts 2:38-41
8:12-13
8:35-38
10:47-48
16:14-15
16:30-34
18:8
19:1-7
22:16

On whose Authority will anyone teach that we are saved any differently today?


According to Scripture, we must:

Hear the Word of God
(Rom 10:17, John 6:45)

Believe
(John 8:24, Heb 11:6, Acts 16:31)

Repent
(Acts 17:30, Luke 13:3, Acts 2:38)

Confess Christ
(Rom 10:9-10, Matt 10:32-33)

Be baptized
(Mark 16:15-16, John 3:3-7, 1 Peter 3:20-21, Rom 6:3-4, Col 2:12, Gal 3:27)

Remain faithful
(Rev 2:10)

Some teach “once saved, always saved”, but the Bible plainly says we can become lost again (2 Pet 2:20-23, 1 Cor 9:24-27).

Is the inspired Word of God wrong?

Obama is clueless…

Obama is clueless…


Your tribe called Woodstock, insisted everybody in the US had to stop imposing our religion…

Because Baptists and Methodists were arguing about whether people can lose their salvation…

Who can decide which denomination we impose on everybody?

Now instead of Baptists and Methodists, we have Crips and Bloods…

Every city and town now has more than 100 street gangs…

The consequences of our bad decisions…

We’re all going to learn this lesson the hard way…

That’s our destiny, until we start imposing our religion on everybody again…

This isn’t theory, its reality…


ANOTHER THOUGHT
If BO is elected, will he swear to protect the USA on a Bible or Koran??

OBAMA TOLD GEORGE OSOPHONY!
OBAMA TOLD ABCS GEORGE STEPHONYOSOPOLISI HE WAS A MUSLIM.GEORGE SAID YOU MEAN CHRISTIAN,OBAMA SAYS YES MY MUSLIM FAITH,GEORGE SAYS YOU MEAN YOUR CHRISTIAN FAITH??OBAMA SAYS MY MUSLIM I MEAN MY CHRISTIAN FAITH!WOW!THIS IS WIERD ORAMA!BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA?BARRY??

Obama & God
I don't believe BO is a Christian. For the last 2 years he's been saying what he thinks people want to hear. Unfortunately, too many "I want the government to take care of me" people fell for it.

I hope the BO supporters get what they deserve. The rest of us will survive because we know how to take care of ourselves and trust in God.

Obama's Religion
Barack Hussein Obama has an Equal Opportunity religion. When he is with Christians,he is Christian. Like a chameieon, he takes on the color ofhis surroundings.

He is not to be trusted. He speaks from both sides of his mouth and will say anything because he knows no one dares cross him or they will face strong-arm investigations .

Obama admits he doesn't believe in
Obama admits he doesn't believe Jesus is the only way to salvation. And then he also admits he doesn't believe in salvation. He doesn't know if there is a heaven and if there was if he would go there. And what's more, he doesn't seem to care.

He occasionally plays the "I believe in Jesus as my Savior" routine so that people like Eileen will fall for it. But its nothing but garbage. Jesus does tell us there will be some who even performed miracles, but when they present themselves on the last day, Jesus will say to them "Depart from me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you."

I would say we can pretty easily say Obama doesn't know him. Maybe it is that drive to see that every possible baby is aborted, and left to die if they survive the process. Or maybe it is the aggressive way he stole the nomination from Hillary, since one doesn't expect a Christian to behave like a lawless thug. Or maybe it is the fact that Obama seems to be completely lawless in his every behavior.

There are people all over the internet, googling "antichrist" and "Obama" together. On more than one site I have read someone declaring "I think Obama might be the antichrist, and I am not even a Christian".

There isn't a snowball's chance in the netherworld that this man actually believes that Jesus died for his sins, and is going to give him eternal life. Mr. Glib knows how to talk the talk because he does have an ear for dialogue.

I have been walking with Jesus for almost 40 years, and I despise Barack Obama more than I can possibly communicate, because he is EVIL. So don't tell me this communist, opportunistic buddy of terrorists and marxists is a fine born again Christian, because it will cause me to question YOUR walk.

No Obama doesn't follow Christianity.
Wright is no Christian, and neither is Obama. I don't care if Wright was a marine, Jesus is not a black whitey hater who blames all the problems of the world on the white man and the white government. And Jesus isn't busy preaching with Rev Wright that ain't nothin gone be right til all the whiteys are dead. Anybody who claims that is Jesus, don't know no Jesus. Anyone who went to an altar call to let that kind of Jesus come into his heart, don't know no Jesus either.

If Obama really loved Jesus, and was walking with him, the leftist MSM and all the leftists would utterly despise him, and would be crucifying him just like they are doing to Sarah Palin.

I don't think John McCain is a Christian, either, never heard him say. But John McCain travels his road based on the ten commandments, which means he is living righteously, and that is what God gave Israel those commandments for, to keep this world sane. A mane who lives by their light, will walk uprightly. Eternal salvation depends on trust in Jesus, but for our purposes, that commandment thing will do just fine as far as the White House resident.

What's your point then?
"...felt confident in reporting, 'Obama is a Christian.' I’m not disputing that here."

So... this article was just to regurgitate Newsweek to state, as a Christian, Obama's belief system is unconventional for a president? Why even bother?

God and Barack
Thank you, Dr. Kengor, for an enlightening article. It’s the first time that such insight into Nobama’s faith has reached me. This guy is not ruled by the rule of moral principle but by whatever gets him ahead and fits his socialistic/ultra-liberal agenda. That with extremely questionable and meager resume and his other questionable associations, B.O. does not deserve even a minute of the citizenry’s attention!

Eileen
These articles about Obama's religious beliefs are not, in my opinion, intended to solve once and for all the question of whether or not he is a Christian, an issue that ultimately resides between himself and God. They are simply an evaluation of the fruit he bears, which the Bible says is a telling evaluation. Certainly Eileen is right, that one cannot presume to peer into the heart of another. However, the onus is on us to look into our own hearts. If what we find there is Christ, we must decide whether or not we can elect as our leader and policymaker someone whose stated policies are antithetical to our Christian beliefs; someone who will ultimately foist upon us decisions between public conformity or adherence to faith.

Eileen
Accepting Christ is commonly understood to mean following the teachings as well as simple belief that he is who he claims to be.

Obama missed the teaching as amply documented in forum after forum... and ignored by the old media.


Eileen

Eileen, Eileen, Eileen, you can’t seriously believe what you actually typed. Love cannot simply be professed. It must be proven in some capacity. Would you disobey all that your father taught you, disrespect him and harm others, and then say, “but I love you, Dad!”

Good gracious, if one truly loved Our Lord, I should think he would want to keep His commandments.

Yet more proof of the illogic of the Left – oh, brother!

eileen
no, eileen, i am not going to stop questioning the messiah's "christianity". the mahdi(islam for messiah) did indeed vote for the murder of babies actually in the process of being born, as well as to deny medical care to the temporary survivors of abortion. he is not a christian, he voted to murder christians, atheists, jews, anyone whos mother found them to be inconvenient. shame on you, eileen, and your ilk. which "religion" is it that proposes the murder of christians, atheists, and jews? i will give you a hint, eileen. the media, the government, and hollywood all agree that it is a "peaceful religion." that is the real religion of the mahdi, nevermind his bogus claims to be a christian.

Defining a Christian
I've always been taught in my very fundamentalist church that anyone would be saved if they proclaimed that Jesus was Lord and submitted to Him for salvation. It appears that Obama has done that and even put into his book that he accepted Christ when he knelt before the cross at a church service. So when did points of theology determine if a person is a Christian or not??? I doubt that there would be agreement between the people writing on this page if the questions were the eternal security of the believer, the use of tongues and healing in the church today, and other points of theology. So unless you can see into a person's heart, as God does, than stop the comments about Obama not being a Christian.

DO YOU BELIEVE...?
WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE…?

WHO DO YOU BELIEVE…?

WHY DO YOU BELIEVE…?

HOW DO YOU BELIEVE…?

FIND OUT…
http://doyoubelieve.blogtownhall.com/

Barack Obama is not a Christian.
At least, not a true Christian. If he were he would not allow his supporters to blasephemously refer to him as the Messiah.

Back in the early 70's, while he was still alive, I saw a documentary on Elvis Presley. As most people know, he was known as the King of Rock and Roll. In the documentary, one of his fans yelled out calling him the King. His response was that no he was not the King. Jesus was King.

If Barack Obama were truly a Christian, this would be the type of response he would give when his supporters refer to him as the Messiah. But instead he accepts this title with arrogance as though he were some sort of god. Perhaps he even thinks he is the second coming. That would not surprise me.

OBAMA AND OPRAH !
THEY MAKE UP STUFF AS THEY GO DOWN THE HIGHWAY!NEW AGE NON-SENSE!

Why bother to write this piece of tripe
The jist: Obama's a Christian eventhough he doesn't know what he believes?

There is only ONE truth, one true teaching. EVERYTHING else is false. Period!

Obama is positively not a Christian.
The closest Obama comes to being a Christian is a wolf in sheep's clothing..
Obama believes ALL WAYS lead to God and that all men are children of god..These two lies are designed to destroy Christianity..
These two lies make the life, death and resrurrection of Jesus meaningless...These two lies make the Bible into a lie beginning with the Genesis story and including the words of Jesus
..Jesus said He is the ONLY WAY BACK TO GOD..The other ways (broad way) leads to death and hell..Jesus also said the children of God are those born of the water and sprit..
As I see it Obama is here to lead men away from the truth of Chrsit's Gospel ...He that endures to the end shall be saved..Gird up your loins.. we will need it in the next few years..if Obama is elected..

Eleanor

Eleanor: My point is what you describe as Christian behaviour may not be Christ like.
Christian behaviour to me is live your life without harm to others as you see fit and let God be the judge.
It is very possible to be personally pro-life yet allow others the right to freedom of choice.

Jen: Do you honestly believe Jesus would have ever said, “It’s ok if you murder one of my little ones, if you feel they pose too much of an inconvenience for you?” I want you to honestly think about that for a minute.

Sometimes, I think those who are pro-abortion don’t really understand what it is they are saying/doing. They come back with Oh, life is complicated, things aren’t always black and white, blah, blah, blah. Yet, you are telling me, if Jesus Christ walked the earth today, he would say there are some situations where it’s ok to murder a child of His. I’m sorry, I just can’t buy it. It would contradict His very nature. He is creator of life. Jesus would never endorse destruction of innocent life.

Also, you miss the point that eternal truth exists. It isn’t about which behaviors I believe are Christ like and which ones you believe are Christ like. Certain behaviors are Christ like, regardless of what either of us “believes.”

Also, how can you argue that abortion is living your life without harm to another?

And how exactly can someone be pro life for themselves and anti life for someone else? Explain that to me.

Your illogic astounds me.

RC
Huh? What do you mean he should never have been allowed to say what he said standing at a pulpit while wearing in ministerial robes? Do you really object to such fundamental tenets of the United States like freedom of religion and freedom of speech?

Wright fought for this country as a marine. You object to his right to preach the religious beleifs that he holds to be true. It is not hard to see which of the two of you respects our country more.

Jen
My point is what you describe as Christian behaviour may not be Christ like.
Christian behaviour to me is live your life without harm to others as you see fit and let God be the judge.
It is very possible to be personally pro-life yet allow others the right to freedom of choice.

Will Obama look to the Creator
If elected, don't you wonder how much faith Obama will put into our country's core belief: We are endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights, that chief among them are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Life, he hasn't shown a penchant for protecting life.

Liberty, he seems to want a lot more government intervention in our lives and doesn't seem too interested in winning the war on terror.

Pursuit or Happiness, looks like he wants to forego the pursuit part for many and instead focus on the redistribute of wealth from those who earn it to those who don't want to work.

Eleanor

Eleanor: Are you serious? Is it really extremely unusual to explore other faiths? To read and study theology?

Jen: Eleanor, and anyone else who completely missed the point of the article. No one questions Obama’s faith because he has explored other religions and beliefs. We question his Christianity because his actions do not reflect Christian behavior (to support partial birth abortion, to view a child as a mistake, and to simply have such a low regard for life). We also are slightly suspicious of his faith because this found Christianity seems to have come just in time for a political career. How convenient, wouldn’t you say?

It’s quite obvious that many hold the view similar to poster, Jack . . .

Jack: I don't agree with Obama on much, but the fact he's not totally devout to Judeo-Christian mythology is one thing I do respect him for.

Jen: Jack nailed it. Obama is quite secular (or could be described as a luke warm Christian), hence his popularity.

Obama taught by James A. Cone

"Whiteness, as revealed in the history of America, is the expression of what is wrong with man. It is a symbol of man's depravity. God cannot be white, even though white churches have portrayed him as white.

When we look at what whiteness has done to the minds of men in this country, we can see clearly what the New Testament meant when it spoke of the principalities and powers."
- James H. Cone; Black Theology & Black Power; 150

"The real questions are: Where is your identity? Where is your being? Does it lie with the oppressed blacks or with the white oppressors? Let us hope there are enough to answer this question correctly so that America will not be compelled to acknowledge a common humanity only by seeing that blood is always one color."
- James H. Cone; Black Theology & Black Power; p. 152.

"It was because of these newfound understandings (at Trinity under Wright) -- that religious commitment did not require me to suspend critical thinking, disengage from the battle for economic and social justice...that I was finally able to walk down the aisle of Trinity...and be baptized." Barack Obama



a time for Republicans to act
President Reagan once asked, "If not us, who? If not now, when?"

Now is our moment.

The election is just days away. It's crunch time folks. We need to get funds to goptrust.com so they can run the new 30-second TV ad showcasing the Wrong Reverend Wright and OBama - it's a home run. Go to http://www.goptrust.com to see it.

The ad is running now in four swing states. We need to help the GOP Trust to expand their ad program. We need to pummel Obama and expose his lies and the media's blatant efforts to elect him.

Make a donation and stop this charlatan and his blind followers from ruining America like LBJ did in the 60s.

Obama and Wright
I still can't get over how unapologetically hypocritical the Left is on this issue.

Can you imagine if McCain went to a White Supremacist church for over 20 years and then claimed that he didn't really know what it was about?

Can you imagine if he belonged to a church that gave awards to David Duke?

The left is apoplectic that Sarah Palin belonged to a conservative Christian church, but has no concern that Obama went to an openly racist one.

Is there ANY integrity left on the Left?

Lon
Rev. Wright has NO courage. He is a coward. He is stupid. And he is filled to the brim with hate.Since he is lucky enough to live in America he is free to say what he wants. However...,he NEVER should have been able to say it wearing ministerial robes while standing at a pulpit!

Extremly Unusual?
Are you serious? Is it really extremely unusual to explore other faiths? To read and study theology?
To not explore other religious faiths may be the reason so many are extremely narrow-minded when it comes to freedom of religion.
One of the reasons for choosing Obama as the next president of the United States is the fact that he is intelligent and respectfully open minded. That's what gives him the ability to know and understand his fellow Americans.
God Bless Barack Obama. God Bless America. God Bless Our Troops.

P.S. It's ridiculous to predict riots in the streets if Obama is not elected. However, I believe the streets of America will be flooded by the tears of so many in favor of the REAL CHANGE, POSITVE CHANGE that the Democratic ticket offers.

A Socialist Revolution on tuesday 11/4
Subject: A Social plan by any definition
What Barack Obama is planning on doing is taking general tax revenue from those making the most money in the US and offsetting the Social Security and Medicare tax payments of the poorest workers in the US. It is as simple as that. It will result in a transfer of roughly $60 Billion dollars every year, or more as time goes on and will create a massive transfer of wealth from the higher paid workers to the lowest paid workers. It will "benefit" roughly 40% of the workforce or about 80 million people at the expense of the rest of the US taxpayers. What will be particularly corrosive will be the fact that since the money is being used to replace the payments the lowest paid workers make to their social security and medicare that they will then be recieving their Social Security and Medicare benefits without having to pay for them. The government will be forcably taking the money to pay those benefits from other US workers and using it to pay for the bottom 80 million workers. Who couldn't like that? Is it Socialism? You bet. Is it welfare? You bet. Is it corrosive to "pay" the retirement and retired health benefits of an entire class of Americans with the money taken forcably from the rest of working Americans? You bet. How many of Obama's supporters understand this? How many of those who recieve the new Government handouts will ever be willing to give them up? How many of us will recognize our country a week from now when the Democratic Congress and Obama join forces to begin the biggest wealth transfer in history? Act now or kiss your freedom and wealth good bye for the remainder of this century.

A better name
would be: Allah and Hussein Obama.

By daft's "logic"
The following are also excellent examples of following the teachings of Christianity:
(*) Hasina Wajed (erstwhile PM, Bangladesh)
(*) Manmohan Singh (current PM, India)
(*) Ijaz ul-Haq (Pakistan's Religious Affairs Minister, 2004-2007)
(*) Jalaluddin Haqqani (prominent Afghan Taliban)
(*) Raman Singh (current CM, Chhatisgarh State)
(*) Vasundhara Raje (current CM, Rajasthan)
(*) Maulana Fazlur Rehman (political party leader, Pakistan)
(*) Omar Bakri (Syria-born Muslim cleric, head of al-Muhajiroun, longtime resident in UK till 2005, now subject to UK entry-ban)

(last I checked, NONE of them is Christian--also, the last five are open about their antipathy towards Christians)

DEMONCRATS GUARANTEE
Riots in the streets if Hussein Obama isn’t elected.
Does this mean that, after voting Obama a total defeat, American Militia Men and Women get to fall out and subdue the rioters, proving again that the American Civilian Militia is essential to the safety of a free nation?

my 2 cents
1) The media will never again be able to claim any neutrality, integrity, whatever you want to call it, again. It is like virginity - it's gone forever.

Those of you who dismiss me as a religious fanatic may skip this part.

2) Catholics out there - this is the 2nd day of a worldwide Novena of a Rosary per day to end abortion, starting by defeating bo. Please join us. We need PRAYER to get out of this mess - a lot of it. That may be the only thing that can help us, but don't forget that heaven helps those who helps themselves.

LC
I think you sell Wright short. It is true that he was preaching to his choir in a rather literal sense. But in a community whose children are fighting in Afghanistan and now Iraq, to make the case that Christianity is more deserving of praise for its constancy than is the Government still takes some bravery. After 9/11 telling ones congregation that they need to remember they are Christians even while they want to be crying out for vengeance takes courage.

It is a mistake to sell short the courage needed to tell people to live as Christians in difficult times when they are not in the mood to love their neighbors or turn the other cheek.

Lizard
You seem to be responding to me, but I don't follow the response. Were you as put off as I was by the articles insinuations that someone who came to Christianity through reason was therefore suspicious in his Christianity?

Taft
you are correct we are not to point fingers and judge however we are also told by their fruits we shall know them. We see a lot of rot in Obama's fruit beginning with his determination to sacrifice unborn and born victims of the gospel of "choice" on baal's altar of licentiousness. He may talk the talk but the walk is the swaying, walk of a politcal drunken
hack.
He cannot, just on his abortion blood guilt convince true values voters to sully their
hands by voting for him. I would never lower myself to vote for someone that defends this practice of human sacrifice..if you think that's hyperbole, to bad. Murder is murde and gussying it up with euphemisms such as "choice"
and a specious argument of a constitutional penumbra won't cut it..it still leaves a baby very very dead from a very painful and barbaric death. Something you libs would have the vapors over if one of your precious insurgents were to meet their Maker at the hands of our military.

AjHil and Tara and Taft and Subcritical
The Rev. Jeremiah Wright does not have a courageous bone in his body. What he "PREACHED" was propaganda. Barry and Michele Dunham sat their rear ends in a pew and listened to him spew his lies couched as gospel for twenty years.But Barry DID learn something from his vile preacher. He learned that lies, couched in dramatic oratory , might help him capture the Presidency.

Tara..,There were more than TWO sermons. There were many.McCain was not treated better.You talk idiocy!

Taft...,you have not seen Obsession, nor have you read "Because they Hate".

Subcritical...,there is NO integrity to be found anywhere in Barry Dunham's campaign.

The four of you, living in the greatest country in the WORLD, have no idea,and never will...,just how great it really is.

When you board the ACORN shuttle on election day,you should all sit together and sing your little "Hope and Change" song.If Barry becomes President the only thing you guys are going to get is free cheese!




Oh, and
I know plenty of people who have found Christ after not having Christianity "beaten into them as a child". Logic and Christianity are completely compatible...you do the 'right' things in life, you feel better, you prosper...it has nothing to do with the material, however.

Faith and Logic
are absolutely dissimilar, but not mutually exclusive. The large group of scientists and physicians with which I associate are 99% Christian-go figure. All from different towns, with varying educatinal experiences, etc., but all have decided that the natural world and the composition and function of the humans that inhabit said world are so complicated that it all can't possibly be a big accident! We need logic to function in our daily lives; we need faith to give us the assurance that life has meaning and beauty.

sad but not surprising
So Obama, like Jefferson, believes in a religion informed by rationality. The fact that that is supposed to be shocking is depressing, although not about Obama.

One would think that christians should be happy that someone could consider all of the religious paths out there and come to the rational decision that Christianity was the best of them. As a non-Christian I have trouble seeing how someone comes to that conclusion. But Kangor wants to play on the views of people who seem to think that there is something suspicious about that. Do christians really consider their religion so irrational that it is suspicious that someone should choose it who did not have it beaten into them as a child?

Why did Kangor quote a line from Newsweek which seemed to sum up Kangor's point in this article well and then claim that it was only Newsweek and not conservatives who held that view?

Go Barack!
As battleground state after battleground state swings toward Obama. As traditional Republican states vote for hope, the rhetoric of his religious beliefs gets more minute by the second.

Keep up the fear mongering!

Obama/Biden. Integrity We Trust.

Obama Exhibited his Leadership
While in the Illinois Senate Barack Obama exhibited the type of leadership he will use should he become POTUS.

When faced with the BAIPA (Born Alive Infant Protection Act) which Barack Obama virulently opposed.

Barack Obama decided - NOT on immediate action to present medical aid to those babies dying in excruciating pain and then work out his political differences.

Barack Obama decided - To let the babies die in excruciating pain until others would agree with his political objections and ONLY then would he try to give medical aid to the babies.

Barack Obama will use that same judgment and leadership when you need help in his 'Sacrifice for the Common Good' health insurance.

http://hisfacts.blogtownhall.com/2008/10/21/obamas_radical_ and_communist_alliances.thtml

check this out
Go to goptrust.com to see the new 30-second TV spot they are running in the battleground states starring the Wrong Rev. Wright and Obama.

GO TO GOPTRUST.COM SEE THE TV SPOT AND MAKE A CONTRIBUTION TO HELP DEFEAT BARACK OBAMA - and God Bless America, not God D#$@ America

The Obama's Need to explain their Racism

Barack and Michelle Obama need to explain their Racism!

Barack and Michelle Obama attended a racist church 23 years.

A church who made the writings of 'Racist James Cone' required reading for all new members.

"Whiteness, as revealed in the history of America, is the expression of what is wrong with man. It is a symbol of man's depravity. God cannot be white, even though white churches have portrayed him as white. When we look at what whiteness has done to the minds of men in this country, we can see clearly what the New Testament meant when it spoke of the principalities and powers."
- James H. Cone; Black Theology & Black Power; p 150
------------------------------------------------------

A church that awarded 'Racist Louis Farrakhan' a lifetime achievment award.

"The white man is our mortal enemy, and we cannot accept him." Farrakhan

"Six-thousand years ago, an evil wizard called Dr. Yacub created the white "race" in a genetic experiment." Farrakhan
-------------------------------------------------------

A church based on the 'Black Value System' and 'Black Separatism'.


"There is no doubt in my mind that as a member of the black community, I am obligated to this community and will utilize all of my present and future resources to benefit the black community first and foremost". Michelle Obama

Barack and Michelle Obama need to prove to us they are NOT RACISTS!



http://hisfacts.blogtownhall.com/2008/10/21/obamas_radical_ and_communist_alliances.thtml

William

I too saw Obsession.I read"Because they Hate".
Every American should be scared.

Obama is no Christian, folks...
a true follower of Christ would not allow a baby born alive after an abortion to die in a soiled utility room.

A true follower of Christ would profess that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Obama says there are other ways to salvation.

A true follower of Christ doesn't lie to the people of the country who he hopes will elect him as president.

A true follower of Christ would live by the Proverb that "bad company corrupts good character."

sorry fool
OB WILL BE JUDGED AT THE PEARLY GATES FOR HIS OWN TRANGRESSION, NOT THOSE OF WRIGHT, AYERS, ACCORN. SO I GUESS I MISSED YOUR POINT.

Obama a Christian?
“I’m a big believer in a faith that is not imposed but taps into what’s already there, their curiosity of spirit.” That says a boatload about Obama's phony faith. Add his voting record, associations, stated policy preferences and his now-infamous "above my pay grade" gaffe at Saddleback Church and you get the whole picture. Obmam worships some god on an illuminati planet somewhere.

Socialist Obama Not Religious
Obama is not really religious in the traditional Christian sense. His god is the State, as in socialism. That is what guides his actions.

Faux Christians
Ajhil? Who are you lecturing on Jesus? It's evident you know nothing about Christians and
the fact that you think we deserved 9-11 proves it. Masterpiece? Obama is no more a Christian than you are. I could educate you on what a Christian is,but there's nothing worse than an
educated idiot - I prefer to keep you just an
idiot.

ajhil of CO,
You need to get help.

Obama is no more...
...a Christian then he is a Muslim. He has no religious affliation other than the quasi-religious-political affectation for power and recognition. Obama's do not celebrate Christmas in the sense that most true Christians do. He has cozied up to "Muslim extremists" just as he has "African Christian extremists". He has no religious foothold...Obama stands not on a rock but, on shifting sands.

Eduardo Verastegui's Must See Video!
People of all faiths and even no faith will find this video of Obama's extremely radical pro-abortion record disturbing. Actor-Producer Eduardo Verastegui spells out the details in this short powerful video:

http://www.durarealidad.com/

Please watch & share!

Jesus never became rich
Jesus never became a rich man as a result of his ministry.

Rev, Wright is now a millionare. Rev. Wright achieve his status by exploiting black fears (real and imagined) about america. He accumulated his wealth as a result of the suffering of others.

Getting rich off the suffering of others is exactly what Plantation owners did.

Faux Christians or just uninformed?
Those of you who condemn Jeremiah Wright from a Christian perspective just don't get it.
Do any of you think that Jesus was meek and waffling? Do you think he would have hesitated to speak out in the strongest terms against things that he considered wrong?
The fact that Wright preached fiery sermons that questioned the actions and policies of the United States does not prove he hates America. In fact, it demonstrates the opposite!
Wright's sermon after the 9-11 attack was a masterpiece that Christ himself would have admired.

By all means......VOTE!

VOTE!

Vote early. Lines will be long on election day. If you need to wait to vote until election day, go early.

AND PRAY!

Vote McCain and Palin in 2008!

Al in Illinois: On McCain & "Pharisees"


Al writes: "McCain swearing at his present wife in front of press people is not very becoming of the man."

If that really happened, I agree, that is not acceptable behavior, and he ought to apologize for it.


~~~


Al writes: "I am always suspect of very dogmatic people since they usually have something to hide. Pharisees in my book."

I am always suspect of "very dogmatic people" who cannot reconcile or harmonize their "dogma" with all of God's Word in the Bible on a given subject.

God does not contradict Himself, so if someone’s doctrine is contradicted by God’s Word, then that doctrine is of men, and not of God.

As far as "Pharisees" are concerned, this is a libel that is often thrown at people who appeal to the Word of God (i.e., book, chapter and verse) as the highest Authority in all things. But to call such people "Pharisees" betrays a profound misunderstanding on the part of the person making the accusation.

The "Pharisees" did not believe that Jesus was the Son of God, they rejected Him; and the "Pharisees" pointed people *away* from Jesus.

Christians who appeal to the Authority of God's Word are exactly the opposite: they believe in Jesus, they recognize and accept that He is the Son of God, and they point people *to* Jesus by showing what the inspired Word of God actually says.


Easiest way to tell if he is or not
Look at who likes him.

Obama And GOD
Sen. Obama believes a different gospel that says Jesus was a "young black man". A true Disciple of Jesus Christ is indwelt with The Holy Spirit of GOD,Who will lead us into all truth.Do not deceive yourselves all you Church-going,Bible-carrying people into even THINKING that you are a Christian and yet you dislike Jews. What are you going to do when you stand before CHRIST Jesus,who was born a Jew and known as King of the Jews??? It has been my experience that any person who dislikes the Jews has never been to that cross at Calvary and had their sins forgiven.Anti-Semitism proves that you are still emnity with GOD.

Tara, Wright believes Christ was
black, only blacks can be Christians, and only blacks who pledge to black theology can be saved.

I am one of those *typical white people* the Big O talks about mollifying by smiling and talking softly (that's how he handled his mother and grandmother--read his books), but I am not mollified.

My Christian belief places Christ as Jew in Roman Israel who died for all of us and not just black people and who practiced no black theology or any discriminatory idea, save against the moneylenders and those of his own faith that he thought were corrupting Judaism.

Vote McCain/Palin and avoid the religious debatae.

Avoid the religious debate
and vote McCain/Palin for change in DC that is believable.

Its obvious...
You haven't listened to the entire sermon. I don't excuse his statements but you understand how he got there... If you had listened to the entire sermon you would have heard him talk about the 'redemption' of America through its people.

How you have the ability to change yourself and the government. Hmmm I think its called a vote, and why the sermon was called Confusing God with Government (which is what you are doing) and The Day Jerusalem Fell which looking at our economy isn't too far off the mark.

Cast your judgments based on TWO (2) sermons picked out of a THIRTY (30) year career.

McCain is a hot head, but you all say its because of Vietnam...well Dr. Wright was there too! Why isn't he entitled.

McCain was captured and treated better than his comrades. Wright was fighting for a country that still wouldn't give him EQUAL ACCESS!

Point fingers all you want, but make sure you count how many are facing you!

Taft
Christianity teaches that no man has the right to eternally condemn anyone (judge)- it in no way suggests that we should not have opinions and /or positions. We are, however, not to be obessesed on earthly politics according to scripture.

An aside- you know nothing of either McCain's or Obama's propensities to lie, and nothing of Wright's Christianity one way or the other. That's God's turf. Us mere mortals can safely debate the efficacy of socialism vs. free market capitalism, but it ends there.

So, Jack- its better to be a poser
yet attend and be active in a "Christian" church for 20+ years, but not be "serious"? How do you know, Jack, that Obama isn't the "serious" Christian and Bush the poser?

God is who Obama says He is
and He thinks and wants all that Barack, in his infinite wisdom and experience, thinks and wants. What's the problem?

Obama's Faith
Some will no doubt say that you should not judge. But, the Bible does say; that Christ knows who are His. The Bible does say; why do you call me Lord and do not the things that I say. The Bible does say; that you will know a tree by its fruit.

That said; Obama is not a Bible believing Christian.
He may go to church, he may pray, he may give to his church, he may have made a profession of faith, but one who habitually denies the truths of Gods word, and refuses to live in accordance with Gods word is not showing me any evidence that he is a Bible believer.

The Holy Spirit indwells every believer and will reveal truth.

If I had nothing more than the attitude that Obama has toward abortion, I can tell you without reservation that he is not in Gods will. Liberals embrace humanism, which is anti God, and does not give life the same value that I do.

How on earth can a person say that he doesn’t want his daughters punished with a baby for making a mistake of having sex?

May God have mercy on him. That baby had no choice; his daughters should think about that before they decide to have sex. But, daddy has already let it be known that the life of the child takes back set to there inconvenience.

The fruit inspector.

Taft
Have you read Brigitte Gabriel's book? It seems rather arrogant to call her a 'nutter' if you haven't. As for 'Obsessed', are you willing to say that it wasn't really Islamists that flew airliners into the world trade center buildings? If the voter case is pure fraud, then you're telling me Mickey Mouse is a valid registered voter? Have you looked at my blog. There is so much evidence. You might be able to cherry pick and argue against one or two bits of evidence. The cumulative evidence is overwhelming unless like Yuri Bezmenov said; you are fully subverted and won't believe, no matter how strong, solid, and consistent the evidence.

Over the top
They have been working on that video. The first time it was really really obviously a fake, and now its just obviously a fake. Don't let there morons take you for a fool. Our republic needs us all to be diligent and wise!

See here for a complete listing of lies about Obama.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/obama.asp

It's ok to question faith,
Dems do it all the time. I have seen the left ravage and ridicule people for saying they are Christians, but now all of a sudden you can't question Barry's religion. I guess for this election, they have all of a sudden, "seen the light." and become holier than thou. It's just amazing.

When a person is a Christian, they believe the foundation of Christianity, which is: "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the father except through me," said Jesus. Obama says he believes in Jesus and he's a Christian, but said in an interview that he isn't sure Jesus is the only way. Sounds like "Oprah Christianity."

He also doesn't call his "followers" on the carpet for calling him the "Messiah, and comparing him to Jesus. He never blinks an eye at that. Some would call that blasphemy. But,maybe he thinks he is.

David(in the Bible) was a man after God's own heart, he committed adultery and had a man murdered,he strayed but God forgave him, because God knew that he was in David's heart. God knows we aren't perfect and if we seem that way, there is a problem.
God did tell Christians to basically "judge" each other and keep each other in check. Re: "not judging" he was talking (in context) about non-Christians.

Just because you are a good person and live a good life, doesn't mean you are a Christian and just because someone says they are a Christian, doesn't mean they are. God does know Obama's heart, as he does mine and yours.

Jesus called the Pharisee's devils. They said they knew God,(but they didn't) even though they knew God's word by heart. It's ok to question someones faith as Christians. God doesn't tell us to take everyone at their word.
God tells us to keep our eyes open and not to follow people around like sheep, who may try to deceive us. Satan masquerades as an angel of light.

A MUSLIM CALLS OBAMA "THE MESSIAH"
IT IS TRUE WATCH LOUIS FARRAKAN, NOI LEADER: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OowxMcVTjTE

Penny Pritzer, chair of the Obama campaign, with Earnst&Young, working through Merrill Lynch, engineered sub-prime loans that created the worldwide meltdown.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs&eurl=http://www. %20redstate.com/

Democrats obstructed every OVERSIGHT bill by John McCain since 2001 that would have PREVENTED this worldwide MELTDOWN! (google S.190)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMClWTzj_HI&watch_response

OBAMA friends, ACORN, Pritzer, Raines, Pelosi, Reid, Thompson, Dodd, Kerry and Franks finance committee are ALL intricately connected to Fannie Mae and the worldwide meltdown!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYI0mHWQeD8

Less God is Good
Seeing as how George W. Bush was such an avid churchgoer and follower of the Christian Right, I'm glad to know Obama isn't as serious Christian. That way he may be more inclined to put reason before faith. I know as an atheist I have a long wait ahead of me before an atheist can become president. But any president who is willing to set aside bronze age beliefs earns a couple points in my book. I don't agree with Obama on much, but the fact he's not totally devout to Judeo-Christian mythology is one thing I do respect him for.

Al
Well said!!

William
Trust me Obsession is a hack job and that Gabriela gal in a nutter. Only in the dark primordial ozz of the RW echo chamber will you find these smears acceptable. The voter fraud case is pure fraud, cooked up by one of the most slimy men to inter politics, one Karl Rove. his summer he wanted an assortment of state attorneys generals to bring charges of voter fraud forth, but they refused, republican and democrat, and he axed them!

At last Dr. Kengor,
you finally have a clue:

"Since then, however, I’ve taken a careful look at Obama’s faith, and there are quite a few things that stand out as historically extremely unusual, and in some cases unprecedented for a potential president."

Ya think?

A Vet Looks at Barack Obama
I can safely say that Barack Obama is a Marxist allied with a domestic terrorist, Islamists, and other radical leftists for at least the last 21 years on project after project with the purpose of subverting the United States. With a massive influx of money from Islamist and radical left sources, voter fraud, and a biased press; they're on the verge of succeeding.

http://www.pr-inside.com/william-ayers-and-barack-obama-fin ally-r797225.htm

This unrepentant domestic terrorist, as head of the Weather Underground, was planning to kill 25 million Americans who couldn't be 'reeducated'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJn5b8_weUY

I'm a Vietnam veteran who after watching the DVD 'Obsession' about Islamic terrorism and reading Brigitte Gabriel's book 'Because They Hate' decided to find out what I could about Barack Obama. It has me truly concerned for this nation that I love. You can see a lot more about Obama and his allies on my blog at http://billlong.blogtownhall.com.

For me the most important article I found to understand Barack Obama is at http://www.faithfreedom.org/obama.html

Christianity
Teaches one not to point fingers, and Obama at least tries to follow Christianity as well as the next. He isn't divorced and doesn't lie all the time. Interestingly, I heard that McCain isn't baptized, but I'm not sure.

Also, Reverend Wright has a bombastic and inflammatory way to preach, but he is a Christian and a true American. As an ex-marine he offered America a sacrifice few do, and 100% more than Kengor. Here is Huckabee defending obama. I wish he'd been the republican pick!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNwMPNxwHmQ&feature=related
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