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Monday, December 08, 2008
Dr. Miriam Grossman, M.D. :: Townhall.com Columnist
What Girls Want: An Edward Cullen to Love Them
by Dr. Miriam Grossman, M.D.
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American girls have a new heartthrob: a tall, gorgeous vampire who is in the eleventh grade. He thirsts for the blood of Bella, his human girlfriend, but learns to “just say no.”

What is it about Edward Cullen, the male protagonist of the blockbuster Twilight series, that sends girls from Atlanta to Anchorage swooning? I asked three teen girls I know.

Nava is 14. “He’s cute, and he’s really nice to Bella.”

Kayla is 16. “He’s caring, and genuine. He expresses his love, and risks his life to protect her. And he’s handsome.”

Tanya is 19. “Edward loves Bella and wants to be with her forever, so he controls himself. The self-discipline is very hard on him, but seeing her hurt would be even worse.”

Not bad, huh? Now if only the professionals running our country’s sex education could figure that out. Because that’s what the Twilight craze is about: a guy who adores his girl so much, he’ll do anything to protect her. A guy who won’t allow his girl to get hurt, even if it means saying “no” to himself. That’s what girls want.

Contrast that with Planned Parenthood’s description of the “perfect partner”. One of the leading providers of sex education, their online quiz lists 12 questions. “If you can answer ‘yes’ to all of them,” teens are told, “you may have a nearly perfect partner.”

The questions can be grouped into 3 categories. First: Is he caring and attentive? Second: Is he decent, honest, and considerate? The third category gets the most attention – 5 of the 12 questions: Does he know about birth control? Does he share responsibility for safer sex, and have std check-ups? Would he accompany you for a check-up, if you wanted? Have you discussed how you’d handle an unplanned pregnancy?

Perfect partner? Are you kidding? How about monogamy? How about a deep emotional connection? And what about commitment? Hello?

Debra Haffner, President for 12 years of SIECUS, the Sexuality Information and Education Council of the United States, and one of the country’s leading sex educators, provides a mnemonic to remember her criteria for a mature sexual relationship: “Can U Have My Pleasure?” C is for consensual; U is for using (you shouldn’t be; this refers to drugs or alcohol); H is for honest; M is for mutually pleasurable; and P is for protected. These, she says, are “pretty rigorous standards.”

Can you believe this? By these criteria, the behavior on Gossip Girls could qualify for a mature sexual relationship. Is it any wonder the average age for sexual intercourse for girls is now fifteen? And why shouldn’t it be? We’re sober, he’s nice, and he’ll wear a condom!

So what’s the problem?

The problem is that girls pay a very high price for sexual behavior, much higher than guys, and that must be acknowledged. Guys usually have silent infections; girls suffer the symptoms. Even with “protection,” she’s likely to be infected with a genital virus from one of her first partners. Even with contraception, pregnancies occur. And even with a truckload of every type of pharmaceutical or latex device, empty relationships cause casualties.

But an even greater problem is denying girls their dreams. When standards are lowered to these abysmal levels, teens get a green light for behavior they’ll regret. Instead, a girl should be encouraged to wait until her own Edward Cullen comes along, a man who has waited for her as she has for him; who will stay at her side, fight battles for her, and prove himself. “Your scent is a drug to me,” Edward tells Bella, while eyeing her neck with hunger. But he doesn’t give in. As Tanya pointed out, he fights the toughest battle – the struggle against himself – in order to keep her safe and whole. This is what our girls are dreaming about, and this is what they deserve.

Now that’s something you can sink your teeth into.

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About The Author
Miriam Grossman, M.D. is a board certified child, adolescent, and adult psychiatrist. She is author of the new book "You're Teaching My Child What?"
 
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Has the doctor even read the books?
Good job Jennifer!

I cannot believe a medical doctor would use Edward Cullen as an example for someone teenage girls should want as their partners. Excuse me? Has the good doctor even read the books? Edward is abusive, he's a stalker, he's controlling. Not someone I want for my teenage daughter.

Unfortunately, many girls are now looking for their own Edward. Oh, not because he chooses to abstain from sex with Bella, but because he's HOT. I've had a thirty-one-year-old friend tell me that she would "let Edward abuse her anytime" because he's "HOT". The three quotes used in the article are not the norm (although two do mention that what they like is that Edward is "cute" and "handsome"...so shallow). The actor who portrays Edward Cullen in the movie, Robert Pattinson, has been physically attacked on the streets by mobs of screaming fans. Yeah, they want him because the FICTIONAL character he plays controls himself when it comes to sex. Right.

If any abstinence occurs because of Twilight, it will because there is no man out there that can measure up to Edward's perfection in the eyes of our teenage girls. The books and what I saw of the movie before I fell asleep (twice) ooze sex and our daughters, nieces, sisters and even mothers are lapping up every bit of it.

Personally, I chose to educate both of my daughters myself (they are now seventeen and twenty-two). However, the sex education classes they had at school helped them to "just say no" as well. Nothing can act as a better deterent than pictures of genital warts. FACT not FICTION.

Edward Cullen- Creep Continued

He told her originally that they couldn't have sex while she was human, because he could break her bones (and vampirize her according to the rules of that universe, but that's never touched on). They do not discuss ways they could minimize this risk. When he discovers that he has brutalized her during sex, he refuses to talk about it and refuses to have sex with her- she literally has to cry and beg for another sexual encounter. That's not a healthy relationship in the least. If married couples can't discuss sex in a frank manner, then who can?
Girls need to be able to have discussions about sex with their partners, even if the discussion consists of 'I'm not ready'. Education is always better than ignorance, and a girl educated well about sex and understanding exactly why she is not ready for a sexual relationship is in a much stronger position. After all, it doesn't take a terribly clever boy to ask a girl why she she's waiting- and it's much easier to hold ground if her argument isn't 'I don't know- my parents told me to'.
These books are full of poisonous messages, and are definitely not good for the audience they're aimed at. I have pdf copies of the series: Edward is referred to as 'beautiful' over 200 times. He is referred to as having a good personality/mind ONCE! It's worse for Bella... she's never referred to as 'good', 'kind', or 'smart' at all. In fact, Edward calls her foolish several times. I would't want a daughter of mine to be with a man who is with her because he thinks she'd make a terribly tasty little treat, even if he does control himself until after they're married. I would want her to be loved for her mind and spirit, not her body.

Edward Cullen- Creep
The only problem is, Edward Cullen is incredibly controlling, condescending, and jealous. Three major strikes against him. He "falls in love" with Bella purely because he's insanely curious about her: he's used to listening in to other people's thoughts and dismissing them as "vile" and "shallow". Bella's thoughts are very shallow, but since he can't hear them, he becomes obsessed with finding out what they are. So obsessed that he breaks into her room at night in the off chance that she speaks legibly in her sleep. Just his luck, she does, so he sits in the corner of her room, staring at her, taking in every word she mumbles.
That doesn't sound like a perfect boyfriend to me.

Edward controls where she goes and who with (when she tries to visit a friend he doesn't approve of, he first bribes his sister to kidnap her, then steals a key part of her car engine and refuses to give it back). He laughs at her, threatens her, and demeans her constantly. Edward may seem like Bella's willing slave (not really a healthy relationship dynamic anyway), but he's the one calling the shots. He may shower her with attention and expensive gifts... but he is deaf to her protests that she wants some alone time with her friends or that his gifts are ostentatious and make her uncomfortable. He really doesn't care about what Bella wants- he instantly dismisses everything she says with "you don't understand". He cares about what he wants Bella to be. When she tries to discuss a sexual relationship with him, he instantly shuts her up, apparently because such talk from a maiden is unseemly. Even after they marry, they don't talk about sex, ever.

Why girls love Edward Cullen
I've been thinking about this for some time. It began after I saw the movie and then continued with the books. I was surprised when the author was surprised by the reaction to the books and then I was surprised when Rob Pattinson, who plays Edward, also seemed to be surprised. Gosh...I wonder who's actually been looking at American girls. Setting aside the whole vampire thing for a moment, I think there are clear reasons why his character is so attractive to females--and there are clear lessons here for men. Think about it...and here's my list: he has great strength under great control; he cares about virtue (it may be old fashioned but as long as a woman doesn't have to sacrifice her freedom or her intelligence, she will respond to that kind of gentleman); he does not take her for granted nor does he act like he owns her; he is patient, even when she is losing her temper (that kind of control is intoxicating); he is humble and takes responsibility (one could say too often) for what goes wrong; he wants the best for Bella and will sacrifice his own desires and comfort to accomplish that if he can; he lets her know he can't live without her; he is jealous because he loves her and sees that others covet her but he controls that jealousy; he is consistent; he has educated himself (pursuing his musical talent and medicine and books) when he could have engaged in more destructive activities with all his free nights. Men who want the kind of love and devotion Bella gives Edward need to consider Edward's example. And, having said all that, the love he has for her--its incredible depth--is what women want to believe is possible--a soulmate for always. Is this so hard to understand even in the modern world where the fiction of easy sex and little virtue seems to be the norm? I don't think so.

Cloward-Piven Strategy
Mountain Rose makes the observation that Planned Parenthood and various homosexual activist groups are not so much interested in some version of "equal rights," or "free reproductive choice" as they are in disrupting and destroying bourgeois society. Of course, many of the rank and file are. They are what Lenin called "useful fools." However, the leadership, or the people behind them are, as mountain Rose has described them. I urge everyone to read the 29 September '08 article, and following, in The American Thinker, on the Cloward-Piven strategy of planned crisis. A good beginning for all of us in combating this menace, and in understanding that there is not a split between social conservatives and other sorts of conservatives, I heartily recommend reading the piece.

This whole thing
This whole Twilight thing just proves that women, especially young women, want the impossible.

Edward is a vampire--by definition super human. Women want a man who is movie star handsome, aggressive, strong, protective, and with a healthy sex drive but then they expect him to sublimate all of that to wait to be just with them. That isn't human, that's super human.

In the real world, men like that have sex, generally at an early age, and continue to have sex--often cheating on their wives. Before anyone points at history for examples--remember that male cheating among the rich and beautiful used to be acceptable behavior so long as you were discrete about it.

Hi Lolo1
To clarify, when I said "many Christians" I specifically didn't say "ALL Christians." Of course I wouldn't want to use a blanket statement. That's why I said "many." I'm a Christian too (notice my screen name) and it saddened me to see others react so negatively to the Harry Potter books, calling them evil, while praising the Lord of the Rings series. Both are fantasy stories and have witches and magic in them. Both are good for reading. So the hypocrisy truly annoyed me because I loved both series, as I love the Twilight series.
So my response was to Glenn who stated that Twilight was demonic without even had read the books! That was what some Christians were doing to Harry Potter. It ain't right.

Dance to the tune, you pay the piper!
Girls and Women ALWAYS go for the 'BAD' boy, and then whine when they inevitably are called upon to pay the price.

Just two examples from a generation apart: Justin Timberlake, Warren Beatty

Demosthenes- I wonder whose comments
you have been reading? Certainly not mine.

My point was that these emotional stages of a girl's life allow her to transition from imagining herself with a boy to seeing herself with a grown man.

I doubt that grown men see themselves as big and scary, but to a girl just emerging from latency and hovering on the edge of maturity sees adult married love as intrusive to her person.

The fans of Twilight are very young, and when I saw the movies, most of the girls came up to my armpits.

For them to imagine themselves with a powerful man, who is still considerate of their vulnerability is an emotionally safe way of making that transition.

Boys go through a different path to maturity, and I can't help you there, having never been a boy. Boys, like girls, must make the transition from childhood to adulthood, and learn how to have mature love with the opposite sex, a person who is an alien being, and this is a process, if people are to be healthy when they get married. Our society does children no favor by ripping these rites of passage out from under them for political reasons.

Female misbehavior enablers
We are told ad nauseam about the fundamental superiority of women over men:
-Women are able to think more rationally.
-Women can make Better Choices, especially under pressure.
-Women can understand complex issues, including politics, more easily.
-Women's brains are superior to men's due to some (disputed) studies claiming that women tend to have a slightly larger corpus callosum
than men.
-Women have special, innate, or better-developed intuitive or multitasking abilities than men.

Yet when it comes inevitably back to women taking responsibility for their own actions, it is those stupid but EVIL MALES that nevertheless are able to seduce/manipulate “women-victims” into having unprotected sex without their apparent consent.

Female misbehavior-enablers sound like national socialists when they began their efforts to malign Jewry, i.e., sub-human but able to conceive & maintain a global cabal. It’s called “Cognitive Dissonance.” And nothing is a greater embodiment of cognitive dissonance than the “virtuous gender” and its apparent fixation on ABORTION RIGHTS: it is perfectly “normal” for women to unilaterally exercise their "reproductive rights" 1.4M times (30% of all children conceived) annually (w/o considering the corresponding responsibilities) by aborting, committing infanticide, & outright abandoning their children for purely capricious & arbitrary reasons. It is perfectly “normal” for over 60% of all child abuse cases being attributed to the biological Mother.

Gratuitous, Sexist article
What a thoroughly gratuitous, female-chauvinistic article, i.e., society’s latest generation of women children are attracted to fictional character because of the obvious inadequacies for their MALE classmates. Unfortunately, the problem is with said women children themselves, i.e., the unreasonable, unilateral expectations of post-adolescent females. Unfortunately, we are raising another generation of women who don’t realize that their choices, both good and bad, have consequences.

Interestingly enough, I’ve taught my daughter not to objectify men as sex or “success” objects (i.e., ambulatory wallets), unilaterally responsible for her every want & desire, and about her many RESPONSIBILITIES as a legally franchised individual that correspond to her many RIGHTS & PRIVILEGES as an American female, i.e, taking responsibility for her personal actions rather than inventing a ubiquitous, though undefined “Patriarchy” upon which to blame for all her future personal set backs. I’ve taught my son not to sexually objectify women, but I’ve also taught him about the institutionalized discrimination that he will be subjected to as a male. I have made him aware that he is a “target” in a society with institutionalized antipathy to the men, e.g. irresponsible men are accorded financial penalties at best and prison at worst, whereas irresponsible women are coddled by American Society.

More
More examples of waiting until marriage. My husband and I were both virgins when we married. I have three teens who are all virgins and plan on waiting until marriage. It's tough but well worth the wait.

Mountain Rose
Grrrrr....I know Moonlight was canceled and I am still ticked!

Lolo1-- I had a big crush on
Barnabas, and really wanted to be Angelique!

If you like Vampires, a great show is MOONLIGHT, which was cancelled after only 16 episodes, but it is available on Amazon. Imagine a cross between Twilight and Moonlighting.

Hi Baseball Doc!

Yes, romance is instinctive in grown women too (I like to fancy that I am grown up though some would disagree), just like the bird that continues to fly once it has learned how.

It is interesting to go to the Zoo and watch the animals engage in courting behaviors. Very ofen, nature films cut to the chase (possibly because the films are made by men), but animals have long complex courtships before getting down to business. For example, at my local Zoo, where they have some very prolific giraffes, the male will cut the cow of his fancy from the others and walk around the enclosure for hours, showing her a great deal of attention, while she politely avoids his advances.

I think human males would have their feelings hurt less if they were to go to the Zoo and witness the patience that other males must have in order to score!

Excellent article to give to my girls
In my office, the subject of Edward Cullen comes up from time to time- and this article echoes what the girls say about what thy want in a guy and why they love the books and movie. Of course, there is alot of mitigating influences in their lives including many "parents". It is difficult to impossible for many of the girls to recognize a good guy and a healthy relationship; they cobble together what they can based upon their assumed truths which are marinted in societal/media debauchery.

I notice that today's young men are more base and young women are more other dependent/vulnerable than 25 years ago.

AliveInHim
"Barnabas Collins
Now HE was one smokin' vampire! ;)"

The only vampire that ever scared the beejeezus out of me!!!! LOL!

Hosea
"I'm sure you have similar thoughts of the "demonic" Harry Potter series and Lord of the Rings....Only many Christians didn't have a problem with LOTR did they? How judgmental of them to condemn one and not the other."


Please refrain from making blanket statements about Christians. I am Christian and loved all of those books and many, many more. Not all Christians are goobers.

Barnabas Collins
Now HE was one smokin' vampire! ;)

MOUNTAIN ROSE @ 1:19

.....MTN ROSE ...You wrote ...

....."This begs the question: is the collective unconscious something that God has instilled within the human heart, and remains constant, or is it a cultural construct? Is this desire for romance instinctive in young woman, the way a fledgling bird knows how to fly, even if it has never seen another bird doing so? I say "Yes!"

.....I agree but I wouldn't restrict the yearning for romance to just young girls ...married woman appreciate some romance also ...which explains the success of a Libertine like Cassanova ....COLOSSUS

Jamesbondi

If you don't think that vampires are a metaphore for sexuality, I suggest that you rent any version of Dracula made in the last 30 years. I like the recent one from the BBC starring Sophia Myles, though that Count Dracula is not as attractive as either the 1992 Coppella version, or the one from 1979, starring Frank Langella.

Jamesbondi

Sounds like sour grapes to me!

Christopher

Twilight, if I understand properly, was written by a member of the LDS Church, who wanted to provide girls with an outlet for those feelings while showing them how much better it is to have a man who respects you and leads the way in waiting for marriage instead of trying to tear down your will power all the time.

Coulter, Ingraham,
lesbians. Just not out.

Lisa-- I don't know your age
but you might have fallen in love with Barnabas or Quintin Collins, Batman (from the comics, not the TV show), the Beast from Beauty and the Beast (both the TV show and the animated film), Ari Ben Kaanan from Exodus (the book, not the movie), Rhett Butler (somewhat) from Gone With The Wind, Humphrey Bogart as Rick in Casablanca, Harrison Ford from Blade Runner, Denzel Washington from Man on Fire, Hellboy, or Tom Selleck in the Jesse Stone movies.

These guys all have elements of the Byronic hero to one extent or another, and are very appealing to women for the qualities mentioned.

You are comparing normal sex drives
with vampire urges? Are you crazy?

SUZANNE @12:19

.....When my sixteen year old daughter brought her first boy friend home to meet me I took him outside for a talk ...I told him to keep his hands off until a wedding ring was on her finger ...he never came back ...

.....My daughter cried and said I was ruining her life and she said she hated me ...

.....Now she is grown and married with a young daughter of her own ...she praises me to the heavens to all her friends and says I am the greatest daddy ever ...I'll bet that my grand daughter's future suitors get the same treatment...

....Moral: ...It pays to stick to your principles even though you might suffer in the short run .....COLOSSUS

M Sederoff-- Ninotchka
Ninotchka is a wonderful classic movie from 1939, starring Gretta Garbo and Melvin Douglas about a woman who is sent from the Soviet Union to Paris, to retrieve a set of crown jewels, which are in the possesion of an escaped countess, but the Russians claim they belong to "the People."

Ninotchka has been indoctrinated in the notion that there is no difference between the genders, and that love is just a chemical reaction, and nothing to write home about. While she is in Paris, she meets Melvin Douglas's character, the countess's lawyer, with whom she falls in love. She discovers her own feminity and lightens up.

It was the film about which it was written "Garbo Laughs!"

Ninotchka was remade in 1957 as a musical called Silk Stockings, starring Fred Astaire and Cyd Charrise. It is pretty good, but the original is much better.

It is ironic that in the modern day, the American women have been brainwashed by the Marxists to think they are just like men, while the women who come here from Russia are ultra-feminine, having rediscovered that the Communist Manifesto was full of bull!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0031725/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninotchka

Mountain Rose et. al.
The difference between the Byronic heroes being mentioned and Edward is Pop Culture.

I had to read those classics in school--and then all it was was a chore. I did not fall in love with Heathcliff. But perhaps young women that were contemporaries of those classics did. Times were different. If a young girl read a novel, she may have shared her secret feelings with a trusted friend. There was no "sensation" or mob at the local bookshop or teen tabloids, I'm guessing.

Today's young women won't be processing their "strong emotions" with their "transitional figure" contemplatively where they can mature, as you said in your post.

I was one of those young women who married badly the first time because I still had a thing for "dangerous/emotionally conflicted" young men. I'm glad that young women might be getting acquainted with the idea that they should demand more from a relationship. But I agree with you, our sexualized-too-young society (and nauseating pop/teen culture) may get in the way of it really making much difference in the maturation process.

PT galore

Someone said: since what they are really saying is they manipulated a female into it.

I have heard women say that females have sexual desires also. Could be.

---------

I don’t really know what all of you are talking about, because I haven’t been to a movie since 1980. But come to think of it, the kinds of movies you are talking about are most likely the reason.

I think PT is the biggest disease in High Schools these days. And too often it turns out different than planned, or rather no planned.

I bet that HS aged girl walking in the mall the other day, swinging her hand so it flipped her skirt high enough to see her bare butt, would complain if I said anything to her.


Hosea

WOW!!!

Thanks so much!!!

Thank you for clarity
Matthew,
Thanks for the thoughts. We needed deeper understanding of symbolism on this site and you provided it. Thanks.

Svpallava,
Missing the point. But thanks for the tip.

Better than Chasing Vampires
P.S. If you want to read a book (and I advise missing the Disneyfied movie) that will show a besotted girl making a very wise decision after falling for a guy from an uncanny family, I recommend "Tuck Everlasting." There is a scene in a boat with the boy's father in which he explains to the girl the awful reality of immortality in a way that you will never forget.

Akagi,
It is not abstinence that has failed.

It is the habit of delaying marriage until ridiculously late in life that is failing.

There is no reason whatsoever that two young people in their early 20's should not marry and make a permanent commitment to each other today -- just as they did through most of human history. There is no reason that a person who grasps the concept that human beings are not animals in heat but rather reasoning beings cannot successfully remain virgin until marriage.

My husband and I did both.

The only reason to delay marriage is a selfish desire to refuse to grow up. Delayed marriage is a symptom of our society's ludicrous extension of adolescence to the point where a person isn't really expected to "settle down" and become a productive adult until their 30's -- a good 15 years after biological adulthood.

Society can't survive that and symptoms show that our society is very sick indeed. Sick enough that a well-mannered, vampire stalker is an improvement over the norm for male-female relations.

M.Sederof
Sorry to be slow getting back to you but I am supposed to be working. :) Il Divo are not what I would call "girly" -- they are the romatic look and sound of the 1940s. Anyway I don't care what they look like; I want to listen to them sing, particularly Carlos, who when he lets his voice go can blow the back doors off the hall. (I tend to like baritones better than tenors.)

However, I agree with you that a manly looking man is a thing of beauty, regardless of whether he ever makes Sexiest Man Alive (and most of those look too girly for me) ... Emanuele Pirro who drives for Audi is one of the hairiest men I have ever met and I find him very attractive indeed. But then I am a sucker for Italians generally even though I believe only an Italian woman can successfully marry one.

Nothing new here
Girls have been attracted to the darkside ever since Eve hooked up with the serpent. Why else do so many youngsters flip over anti-heroes in black?

Some people need to get a grip.
I really don't believe that the author or producer was thinking, "let's make a series that will make girls want to marry vampires!"
The vampire is allegorical to human sexuality. It always has been. It is almost always a warning to girls about losing self-control. Think af almost any classical vampire story you know. It almost always involves a male vampire who is able to have his way with a female human due to his hypnotic power or brute strength. After, she is either dead, undead, or in an in-between state of living without any control over her own body. The moral: give into temptation and you will suffer consequences forever.

The vampire (i.e. male pressuring you for pre-marital sex) wants only immediate gratification, and cares nothing about the consequences. He is repelled by 1- refusal (if you don't invite him in the house, he cannot come in) 2- societal norms (vampires are bound by certain rules such as needing to count every grain in a bag of wheat before entering a house) 3- religion (vampires in pagan times were repelled by running water, garlic, and white ash; in Christian stories they are reppelled by crosses, holy water, and the name of God) 4- sunlight (in the original stories, sunlight did not kill the vampire, it merely made him weaker and unable to use his powers. Sunlight could be actual daytime, or refer to having secrets brought out in the open).

With all of this background to what vampires represent, why not use an allegory about a vampire who wishes to control his own desires? I can read the Chronicles of Narnia without believing in water nymphs and tree-gods. I think we can read twilight without wanting to really marry a vampire.

For Hosea
on the Harry Potter series.

I did a quick reading on the first of these and actually found that the "Secret Seven" series (roughly the worst-written of Enid Blyton's--and, like most Blyton series, almost unknown in North America) flowed better storywise.

Mountain Rose
You are brilliant.

Hey Glenn,
RELAX.
It's a book. Moreover, it's a fantasy book as well. If you want to critic it, then READ it don't rely on your friend's word or the depiction of the book in the movie. That is so annoying when people bash something they have no experience with.
I'm sure you have similar thoughts of the "demonic" Harry Potter series and Lord of the Rings....Only many Christians didn't have a problem with LOTR did they? How judgmental of them to condemn one and not the other.
Are you able in any way to see an underlying theme of a story or do you just take things at face value? There are truly dark story lines out there that could be called evil, but this story is not one of them. Some of these themes can be found in other vampire stories. Not so much in this one. Meyers goes out of her way to depict her vampires as suffering from their condition, not reveling in it. Meyere herself doesn't even like vampires.
In Romeo and Juliet (a story Twilight parallels) they both killed themselves in the end, yet it is considered a great classic. Should we not let teens read that then?
If you had bothered to read the book you would see that the theme of the book is love despite the flaws or weaknesses of the person. The character of Edward didn't want to be a monster and he battled with this nature within him...Wait, just like we battle with our sinful natures. cool.
Mark 15:13 says “Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."
So Bella and Edward are willing to die to protect each other because they love each other. Sounds Biblical. Do I think a teenager should do such a thing? no. That's where parenting comes in. Good grief. (remember, it's a story)

BTW, she's 17 in Twilight and is 18 when she gets married. But you would have known that had you read the book.

Bottom line, read the book before commenting again. I think you're missing the forest for the trees. Thanks. :-)


Sid
What you said about the difference of men and women highlight what I said.

"... women want one man to satisfy all their needs and men want all women to satisfy their one need."

That is the beginning stage. In the second stage the women want to be loved and the man is happy with his one woman.

Too bad that so many people never get past the first stage. And too bad that the Left seems determined to teach the youth that the first stage is enough for everyone.

Love and Sex
To Debra Haffner and others like her, her comments probably ARE rigorous standards, considering that they don't really have any standards for themselves at all beyond, "have fun!"

But those standards aren't the ones that a fifteen year old girl needs. The girls want and need LOVE, not lust. And if they start having sex they will lose love thinking that sex is not a part of love. (So will boys for that matter.)

There was a comment I heard when I was a boy and now, fifty years later, I believe even more that it is true: A girl loves a man and then she loves love. A boy loves love and then he loves a woman.

Think about it and I think you will agree with the comments.

Mountain Rose
Better yet, Alan Colmes! He's leaving Hannity and Colmes next month anyway! :)

For Mountain Rose @ 13:56
For the liberal to bash, I'll nominate....Stéphane Dion!

(see Rachel Marsden's column yesterday for why)

http://townhall.com/columnists/RachelMarsden/2008/12/03/no_ bailout_causes_coup_in_canada?page=full&comments=true

For NJ Greg @ 12:54
That's by no means the first time Akagi's ignorance on a matter has been revealed.

Barb
Girls who are feeling their sexuality bud are just naturally going to be attracted to what is taboo, forbiden fruit or whatever you want to call it.

When I was a girl, mothers all wanted their daughters to love Pat Boone. Guess who we loved? Elvis.

So, if they are going to be attracted to what is dangerous, they might as well see a dangerous man who will keep his desires in check for their sake. Maybe in a left-handed way they can get the message that love puts the other's welfare above self.

Mountain Rose is right.

Mountain Rose
Re "The Right View"

What a fabulous idea!! I hope you read this Ann. I'll watch every day.

Mountain Rose
I love your posts. Always smart and full of wisdom.

What does Ninotchkas mean? I Googled the word, but could not make much sense of the available info.

Thanks.

Max & others

I sorta want Ann Coulter to star in a discussion show called "The Right View," and have Michele Malkin as her co-star. They can have one mealy mouthed liberal that they bash into submission.

How nice to know...
OH, well! I guess that makes it all better then, huh? A vampire guy who has "forsworn the drinking of human blood, & drinks only animal blood"- that's just the kind of guy I want... brilliant!

Lolo and Sid

Thanks Lolo!

Sid-- I think that you are confusing a transitional stage for young women with what goes on in the heart of a grown woman. If you look at the age of Twilight fans, they mostly are in their early teens.

In fact, I will go further to suggest that if girls are not permitted to go through this stage safely without being sexualized by our culture too early, then they may actually get stuck in this stage and have trouble making the transition to mature married love.

I think that there are many women stuck in the stage where sexuality, even with their husbands, is an intrusion or a voilation, because they had their innocence ripped from them by a carnal culture, and they have never gotten over it.

Mountain Rose
Well said!

I have to agree also that I doubt that most of the posters have read the books.


Max
"Hahaha..."

Which, as I recall, was defintely NOT the response drawn by the single episode of Rosie O'Donnell's disastrous variety show. The fact that Hollywood's geniuses will give a dumpy liberal lesbian a shot at prime time, but not a brilliant, knockout conservative blonde who knows everyone, tells us much about why show biz is sputtering.

Barb- you obviously know nothing about
the Twilight books, or you would know that the Cullen clan have foresworn the drinking of human blood, and drink only animal blood, even though they still have the old desire.

This is a metaphor for human sexuality, especially male sexuality, and it indirectly teaches young girls how to choose a man that will respect them, even though he strongly desires them.

Lolo- I doubt that a lot of these guys
have read the Twilight books.

I think that men are often confused about the fantasies of young women compared to their commonsense choices for a real husband.

There is a need for young girls to emotionally "practice" being in love, and reading about these powerful-yet-restrained Byronic heros is a safe way for a young woman to make that transition from having a crush on the handsome-but-boring Prince Charming. The modern day Prince Charmings are like the boy bands, like the Jonas Brothers: Cute yet bland and almost androgeneous.

But there comes a time when girls need to start contemplating the real relationship that will follow when she grows up and hopefully marries that includes having relations with an adult man. During this stage, she starts giving her heart to a transitional figure, who is dangerous and yet safe at the same time, because he is restrained in spite of his power, and she can explore her own powerful feelings without being expected to "put out" by some sticky fingered teenaged boy.

This is the very stage that our culture keeps trying to tear down by sexualizing our young women before they have gone through this secret, emotional rite of passage, thus robbing them the luxury of growing up and gaining discernment before they have to choose their life mate.

Additional factoids
My wife was 35 (definitely an unusually-late marriage-age for an Indian woman) at the time of our wedding, and it was her first experience of (even attempted) sex as well.

Twilight- the modern day Gothic Romance

Edward Cullin is an updated version of the classic Byronic hero:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byronic_hero

He is in the same category as Rochester from Jane Eyre or Heathcliff from Wuthering Heights. Other Byronic Heros are The Beast from Beauty and the Beast and Eric The Phantom from Phantom of the Opera. These characters are dark and brooding, intelligent and cunning, sophisitcated and educated, emotionally conflicted, mysterious and charismatic.

Most of all, these romantic characters are extremely attractive to women, especially young women and are an important part of the collective unconcious that the activist Left is trying to erase in our society and replace with their own cultural mythology.

This is the reason that there is such an absense of real romantic male figures in the popular culture, because the left control Hollywood and are trying to turn our young women into a generation of Ninotchkas.

AND this is also the reason that one of these modern Gothic romances appears, it becomes so wildly popular amond young women, because they are so hungry for this deep part of their nature to be fed with traditional stories.

This begs the question: is the collective unconscious something that God has instilled within the human heart, and remains constant, or is it a cultural construct? Is this desire for romance instinctive in young woman, the way a fledgling bird knows how to fly, even if it has never seen another bird doing so? I say "Yes!"

The Pitiful State of our minds...
To see such success come out of such CRAP really shows what a pitiful state our minds are in. SInce when is having a "vampire" for a boyfriend even acceptable ? How is having a 16 yr old in love with a friggin' vampire ( vampires are suppose to be the "undead", live off humans and blood, and seek victims to continue their noctural, unnatural half-existence, and the spawn of demonic influence). AND THIS is what sells? What stupid girls are going after? It basically says volumes about the lack of intelligence, lack of moral values, and total lack of reason to imagine this is GOOD in any way, shape or form. Pure crap, and that crap is twisting and polluting young minds.

Why does Planned Parenthood teach girls
to go against their natures?

Because they have a stealth political agenda that has NOTHING to do with their outward agenda. Perhaps the founder did have the motivation to keep down breeding among the lower classes, but the people who have taken over are Marxists, whose intention is to create chaos in American society.

It is the same as the aggitators who have stirred up homosexuals to think that they will die if they don't get to marry another homosexual.

If you look at the things the Lefties are doing as a whole, instead of looking at all the parts separately, the big picture becomes clear, especially when you look at it in the light of the Communist Mannifesto, where gender neutrality is one of their goals.

Therefore, girls are taught by the left to be wild while homosexuals are told to settle down and be domestic. None of these useful idiots are aware of being manipulated, because conservatives have been shamed into being silent about the danger of Communists among us.


Holy COW!
You guys sure misinterpreted these books.

The message of the books is they developed love together because they had self control....namely the man.

As to those who slept around...bully for you. At least you admit that you haven't evolved past the level of lower life forms. The men on here bragging about it are even worse, since what they are really saying is they manipulated a female into it.


one thing
One of the best explanations I've heard of the difference between men and women is; women want one man to satisfy all their needs and men want all women to satisfy their one need. It appears that women really want all their needs satisfied without the requirement to satisfy the man's one need. No wonder so many men are opting out of marriage.

Akaqi
My wife and I both married at age 26, and we were both virgins on our wedding night. Why did we do this? Because we were taught by our parents that sex outside of the marriage covenant is wrong, and we believed in that and in being true to what was expected of us. That is also what we are teaching our children, including our three teenagers who have reached sexual maturity. We've taught to respect and honor women, and we've taught our daughter that any man who is not willing to respect her virtue--and his own--is not worthy of her.

And by the way, RW, neither me nor my wife were "dorks" in high school, and neither are our children.

two things
i don't know about you but this vampire thing is a little strange to me.

as far as teen sex there is some good news.

Over the last decade, the percentage of all high school students
(9-12th grade) who report ever having had sexual intercourse has
declined. At the same time, among teens who are sexually active,
rates of contraceptive use – including condom use – have
increased. Both factors help to account for the decrease in teen
pregnancy rates in recent years.


http://www.kff.org/youthhivstds/upload/U-S-Teen-Sexual-Acti vity-Fact-Sheet.pdf

The Message of Dr. Grossman
While I can see the point of a lot of you about the whole vampire, obsessive love component of Twilight, I see what Dr. Grossman is getting at. I read the Twilight series and was just annoyed by Bella as was my daughter. She seemed a very normal adolescent, not special or anything. However, in society, girls (for a large point) have dramatically lowered their standards when it comes to sex and are encouraged to do so much to their own chagrin. I know my own teenager is very cynical about love and romance which I think is very sad. While I do not think that mindlessly idealizing someone is a good idea, it would be nice if girls could have better self respect and self esteem and demanded being treated at least decently by their boyfriends and could at least believe that it is possible for two people to truly fall in love, marry, and be happy together until death do them part. A lot of teens just don't even look at this as a remote possibility. This is very sad.

baseballdoc
Any regime that is contray to human nature will fail--which is a major reason for communism's down fall.

To ask anyone to wait 10, 15, 20 years before having sex after they become biologically ready is a regime that will fail. In the 19th century men got married in their late teens and women by their mid-teens. A mid-20s woman was considered an "old maid." Our society has changed with men and women pushing toward 30 now, but our biology hasn't. Pushing people to save themselves for marriage is a program pre-programmed for failure.

Abstinence only doesn't work.

Max
Does anyone know if Anne Coulter is saving her 47-year-old self for Mr. Right?

Age Difference
Dr. Grossman's perspective of the Twilight film is certainly well intentioned however she misses the mark most likely due to her age.

The reason the Twilight series is successful is because of the sexual tension between Edward and Bella not because of a lack of sex but because of a constant focus on it.

If Dr. Grossman asked whether or not the teenage girls would sleep with the Cullen charchter most would reply "Yes" if giving the truthful answer. That's ok considering the horomonial turblence during the teen years and it is up to the faith community to say why it would be better that they wait until marriage.

"Twilight" is a fun series but it is complelty secular (which is fine) but to read into it some overarching moralistic lesson is a mistake. When watching the film, it became clear it was two hours of porngraphy without the sex. That is why teen girls are flocking to it.

Hahaha
"Why isn't Ann Coulter hosting her own variety show? "

Haha

SEX, LUST & LOVE

.....Planned Parenthood treats teenage sex as if it were inevitable and not much different than a good night kiss on a date ...

.....Sex without love and commitment is no different than two dogs getting it on in public ...this is what the schools should be teaching in their sex-ed classes ...

.....Instead they depend on Planned Parenthood to teach how to have sex without consequences and of course there is always that final option which they are happy to provide for a price ...abortion! .....COLOSSUS

Two other points...
... deduced from the postings above:
-- TH posters were dorks in high school.
-- We conservatives are so starved for positive messages from the media that we need to root for them (and sometimes even imagine them) the way Truthers go after validation for their theories. What we really need are a lot more positive messages By and For conservatives. Pro-lifers have been fighting a heroic good fight for decades now. Where are the documentaries/novels/reality series on these life fighters speaking to the best in us? Why isn't Ann Coulter hosting her own variety show? Why no glamour/lifestyle magazines about conservatives?

Hosea
"Twilight" is NOT a Godsend, rather it is a product of demonic deceptive practices. The ONLY reason they vampire didn't have sex with the 16-year-old who threw herself at him was because he knew it would kill her. However, I learned from a friend who read the books that he does eventually marry her and turn her into a vampire. How is this a "Godsend"? What sort of Christian would recommend this sort of deceptive idea? As pointed out previously, the message we are sending is that it is okay to love a demonic personage, it is okay to have a relationship with a guy who admits he is a killer and dangerous, and it is okay for a guy to keep showing up in your bedroom. Remember, this is a 16-year-old girl! And the lesson that it's okay for her to jump the guy for sex when he does show up? Oh, I guess it's okay because he's "cute" and "romantic"! And what about the message throughout the film that death is better than life--with all the problems of teen suicide, is this really an appropriate message? I watched this film for apologetic purposes and I was appalled at the messages presented. You people need to open you eyes a wee bit and be more objective with your analysis. Don't excuse this deceptive film as "just entertainment." Of course, if you're not a Christian, the message about demonic personages (however fictional) may not be a problem, but the rest of the messages should be.

For James, Bubba, Bulldog, ...
Another here who waited till marriage (at age 42--I'm currently 45) to have sex--proof that PP's popular ideology of "they'll inevitably do it" is shaganappi (term used by Native Americans/Canadians in AB/MT for trash).

For kt @ 08:40
What FL jim posts is not German, but basically the same "language" as hal dumbahue, lon, reject-29, ... -- perennially-buzzed-groat-prattle.

HU-Don't get me started
Women have more methods than men, mainly because the medical profession has been dominated by men for eons, and inconveniencing and endangering the health of women was preferable to that of men.

Of all the methods for women that are available, my husband and I recently chose safest one for me--his vasectomy!

on Self-Control
I think the Twilight series is a God-send to young girls (and guys who care to read them) on what it takes to have a good relationship and what a good guy is like. Yeah, some aspects are strange and not based in reality (I mean, come on, he's a VAMPIRE). But the moral message on the whole is good and positive.
For those who say kids will have sex regardless, I say bull. I was a virgin when I married at 23. And that doesn't mean I wasn't exposed to it. I went to a public school with no less than 3,000 students. Plenty of temptation there! Was it hard? Hell yes. Was it worth it? MOST definitely! And I married a wonderful man who respected and loved me enough that he wouldn't cave into his desires either. (Edward Cullen actually reminds me a lot of him too. See ladies, they DO exist!)

I think the thing about self-control that people don't like is that it's HARD. It's hard to tell yourself NO, especially in a society that teaches self-indulgence and a wiping away of consequences (hello Planned Parenthood). Every aspect of our lives requires some amount of self control. Whether that aspect is sexual, financial, relational or work-related, we must practice self-control.
Just look at where a lack of it got us in the financial sector of our country.

I say YAY! to the Twilight series. It's kind is long in coming and I hope that people start to get the idea that high morals, values and self-control are desired and good for all of us.

BIRTH CONTROL
Here, women have 36 methods of birth control and they want to lay blame on males who only have two!?!?!/ There somthing WRONG with American female thinking. Today women make women pregnant not men,i.e. they have all the control!!See the book The Damned.
R W

vampires as nice guys
There is something odd about acting as the fact that the hero is a vampire is coincidental to the appeal. One can certainly make the argument that girls dream about the nice guy, but it would probably be more convincing with a different example.

It is true that girls are deluding themselves if they think that the best way to hold onto a relationship is through sex (or possibly they are being deluded by other people). But it is hard to see worse evidence for the idea that women are drawn to nice guys than that they are drawn to vampires, but only those that don't kill the women they are with.

The idea of translating what one is holding out with is an interesting one. In the play "The House of Blue Leaves" a woman sleeps with the man she is tempting, but refuses to cook for him because she considers herself to be a better cook. So she seduced him by reading from cookbooks of what she will make for him if he marries her. But at least that is comedy, not part of a serious argument.

Bubba
Sounds like you did get married at some point, but if not, I'll take ya

Obsession
It used to be that portrayals of obsessive "love" and these types of relationships too young were considered not a good thing for teens. While Edward raises the bar (thankfully), the forbidden is glamorized.

As a teen, I was caught up in this type of relationship model. It took me years to understand that, while there is a "chemistry" component to a successful relationship, and "addictive" relationship is not healthy. Not being able to tear yourself away from someone who is not good for you is an addiction. Having you eyes wide open is best.

For whatever good points this series may have, I'm glad my 14 year old has no interest. It is glamorizing something that in the old days adults knew was harmful.

What about the message?
Let's see, this is a great movie to show that girls should not care if the guy she is involved with is a killer and dangerous by his own admission. So what if a guy shows up in your bedroom and watches you sleep - isn't it okay as long as you like him? And if he shows up and you are only 16, isn't it romantic to attack him and try to have sex with him? After all, isn't is just soooooo romantic to have him stalking you even into your bedroom?

test
this is a test

Jim
I went all through high school and never had sex. My first time was the night after my wedding. Don't tell me kids can't...sure, it takes self-control, but it is FAR from impossible.

That's...
... DOCTOR Grossman, and MD, and don't you all forget it. Aside from the self-puffery, though, some good points.

LeishaC
I have suggested that taking responsibility for your actions and practicing self control be stressed in school only to the delight of liberal co-workers who come up with a multitude of reasons as to why children should not practice these behaviors.My favorite is stifling "creativity".

I take my hat off to you and other teachers who try everyday to instill not only knowledge but basic social skills in our children.

I apologize for the parents who cannot or will not teach their children basic self respect and respect for others.

Planned Parenthood
Good ol'PP, they never saw an abortion they didn't like. Face it, for all their propaganda they are in the abortion business. I call it killing babies for profit.

Its About Time,
The vampire aspect is fairly creepy -- I'd be more likely to assign that role to the guys who make easy prey of girls who've been taught to never say "No" and to act like cheap whores for anything that pees standing up.

But its about time girls rediscovered the concept of having standards and demanding the best from a guy instead of settling for what crumbs of attention he's willing to spare from the things he considers more important.

jim
" I dide it wher I was 14."

Are you speaking German? What did you dide?

If I were you I still would not tell.

Bubba...
You think being a good guy makes you a loser? Would you have been more of a winner if you had slept with a lot of girls as a young man? Well, I guess that depends on what your goal is. If your goal is to gratify yourself and objectify women, then maybe you were a loser. Maybe you still are, if that's how you quantify winning.

We need to teach young people that they are more than the sum of their urges. Kids today lack self-control in many areas. I know, I'm a high school teacher.

Seriously, though
It's sad to see so many girls and young women with such low expectations.

Jim
Farm animals don't count

Are we twins bubba?
My situation exactly. I was the nice guy who believed no meant no and would fight any other man who didn't. I did fight one guy who almost raped a close friend's sister, and sent him home with a different outlook. I had girls mercilessly tease me for hours, but when we finally had some time alone, the answer was no, so I pole vaulted home, with their virtue intact.

I did marry a good woman when I was 25. Been married 22 years. I was a virgin until I was 20, and she was not. She has many emotional scars that I don't. I think this article is dead on.

AudiR10
I was not familiar with Il Divo. (My daughters are grown now, so I don't keep up with these things like I use to.)

They look a little girly to me. Don't you think that has become a problem among girls today? They seem to be attracted to the girly guys, soft, clean shaven, sensitive, and then they wonder why they keep getting duped by gays and bi's pretending to be straight.

My daughters use to tease me because I like beards and/or mustaches on men. They said "What is the attraction of facial hair?" I told them I like my men to look like men.

sex
if you dont think young people.teenagers,are goin to have sex you were crazy.how old were you the first time?i am a 61 year old man an i dide it wher i was 14.we just didnt tell the whole world.
jim

sex
if you dont think young people.teenagers,are goin to have sex you were crazy.how old were you the first time?i am a 61 year old man an i dide it wher i was 14.we just didnt tell the whole world.
jim

Patrick
Please quit spamming every thread with rubbish.

===========

My sister at age 18 fell in love with and married an Edward. She was a girl who knew nothing about men -- like Bella she was in a small town against her will (Mama and Daddy had retired to Alabama from New York) and like girls of her generation she wanted desperately to get married. Her swain seemed gentlemanly, caring, kind and intellectual, wise and poetic.

Like Edward he was substantially older than she was, and from a dysfunctional family; and although he was not a vampire, he proved to be an alcoholic and a homosexual...who *restrained his impulses* until the day he was caught by the campus police doing his Larry Craig imitation, and things went south from there.

For girls that are naive and easily swayed by romanticism and protectiveness and a gentlemanly reticence from an older and more Experienced man, this movie ought to be a warning: that if someone is a vampire (or a homosexual), he cannot be cured, and sooner or later his friends are going to lure him away from you and you will not know it until the day the test comes back positive.

But women do want romantic men; and men tend to jeer and laugh at anyone who proves it. Il Divo is Exhibit A for my generation -- every review of them made by a man is sneering, jeering and condescending ... and every one of their concerts sells out. Personally I would not care if a man looked like Quasimodo if he wooed me with a rich baritone torch song!

Planned Parenthood and promiscuity
Planned Parenthood is a business. They encourage promiscuity because it keeps the business profitable. Do you expect a business that's product is the murder of babies to discourage pregnancy?
Why are our tax dollars going to this organization? That is the question!

Women are in control
But they throw that control away. Women in the past always demanded commitment before sex, and they had their way, and we were all better for it. Girls now hop in bed with anyone who will say "I love you." They shack up with guys at the drop of a hat.

Until women learn to demand respect and commitment before giving themselves away, they will always yearn for commitment but will never get it.

This is the legacy of feminism.

I agree that protective males are needed
It's just a pity that someone thinks the positive role model has to be a vampire.

Waiting............
I was this guy. Good grades, captained varsity teams, kept my d*#k in my pants through high school, college, all the way till marriage. More girls than I can count with my fingers told me that I was the man they wanted to marry. Never really got to know them though, they were all too busy f*c@ing their boyfriends Friday night. I would have been great to marry, but was too "boring" to date..........it is possible to make all the right moves, and still lose.
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