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Monday, January 28, 2008
Dr. Matthew Ladner :: Townhall.com Columnist
Enabling Animal House: America Needs to Create Rational Higher Ed Policy
by Dr. Matthew Ladner
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America needs to invest more financial resources to help address a looming shortage of college graduates needed for the high-tech economy of tomorrow. Or do we?

Arizona Governor Janet Napolitano, current chair of the National Governor’s Association, used her 2008 State of the State address to call for doubling the number of college graduates in Arizona by 2020. Napolitano proposed paying the tuition for students who graduate high school with a B average to accomplish this goal.

“We must recognize that higher education is something that all Arizona children will need to succeed,” stated Governor Napolitano.

In the Carnegie Foundation’s publication Change, Paul Barton wrote that the notion that the U.S. has a dire need for an ever increasing number of college graduates is a myth. “Confusion about the demand for college graduates runs throughout discussions of national workforce needs,” Barton wrote.

According to Bureau of Labor Statistics data, only 29 percent of all jobs actually required a degree in 2004. The Bureau projects that of the top ten occupations with the largest growth from 2004 to 2014, seventy percent won’t require a college education.

Interestingly, the U.S. Department of Education's National Education Longitudinal Study reports that 40 percent of its sample attained a two- or four-year degree or higher. Therefore, many people with college degrees have jobs that don’t require them. So it really might be true when your cabbie says he has a Ph.D.

Barton’s clear-eyed presentation of the data reveals a job market far more complex than simply an unmet demand for college-educated job applicants. For example, proponents of greater higher education funding often point to an increasing wage gap between the college educated and those who aren’t.

Barton, however, notes that the wage gap is due largely to the falling earnings of high-school graduates and dropouts rather than to higher earnings for college graduates.

While governors around the country call for more public spending so more people will have college degrees, no one seems to have noticed just how poor many universities actually perform in graduating students. The National Center for Education Statistics lists Arizona State’s four year graduation rate as 28 percent, the University of Arizona at 30 and Northern Arizona University at 27. The six year graduation rates for these three schools stand at 56%, 56% and 47% respectively.

Furthermore, a growing and alarming body of research raises questions about what students are actually learning in college. For example, the American Institutes for Research recently assessed the literacy of 1,800 graduating seniors from 80 randomly selected two- and four-year colleges. The Institute found that more than 50 percent of students at four-year colleges can’t do a basic task like summarize the arguments in a newspaper editorial.

The crisis in our public universities is effectiveness, not affordability. They need competition, not new subsidies. The Arizona legislature created a higher education voucher program, called the Private Postsecondary Education Student Financial Assistance Program, in 2006 in an attempt to do just that. Colorado also has a voucher system in place for its college students.

Arizona’s higher education voucher program helps students pay for private colleges and technical training schools, which often have far higher graduation rates than the public colleges and universities. The program also costs less than the state’s public universities. Because no good deed goes unpunished, Governor Napolitano recommended that the Arizona legislature cut funding for the voucher program.

Our country’s higher education policy needs to return to first principles. Students enjoy the primary benefits of a college education, not taxpayers. Students should therefore have financial skin in the game.

Today’s higher education scene includes out of control costs, questionable and declining value, lack of focus on teaching over research, and a general lack of transparency. We need to fix the system, not throw good money after bad.

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About The Author
Dr. Matthew Ladner is vice president of research for the Goldwater Institute and an expert on educational reform and school choice. Dr. Ladner holds a Ph.D. from the University of Houston.
 
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The reasons why...
There are two major reasons why 4 year colleges have turned into 6 and more year colleges.

1) The kids being accepted are having to spend several years taking remedial courses to make up for the dog's dinner that teachers unions and state departments of education have made of public K-12 education.

2) The curricula for degrees has been increasingly larded with more and more courses that have nothing whatsoever to do with the degree being sought. All of the ethnic, gender and sexual identity courses fall into this category. If these bloody programmes had to pay their own way by actually attracting students and offering useful degrees they'd be closed by sundown. As it is, both states and state university administrators play the political correctness game by starting a special new programme to pander to the demands of each new protected class and provide protected employment to their soi-disant "intellectuals". Think of Ward Churchill.

Pandering Politicians...
know with certainty that the answer to any problem is gov`t funding. Doesn`t matter if the treasury is empty, doesn`t matter whether the problem gets solved, doesn`t even matter what the problem is. All that matters is that they are seen to care for the little people.

American colleges are largely 4 year resorts for the middle and upper classes to send their children so they can avoid the unpleasantries of earning a living for a while. Sex and alcohol are abused in abundance and it`s a further chance to become indoctrinated in the Socialist ideas of the professoriat.

Why the taxpayer should further subsidize this is a mystery known only to our betters in elected office.

plaasjaapie
Exactly. NJ spend ONE BILLION DOLLARS on remediation in JUST the public colleges and universities in 2005.

The average NJ public colleges/universities have 40% of freshman in some form of remedial courses: math, writing, reading, and/or study skills. Some colleges in urban areas have higher rates: 50-60% of new students in remedial classes.

Many "college" degrees today are not old-fashioned liberal arts and sciences degrees of traditional higher ed. Today, people go to college for a variety of former trade or vo-tech school curricula like dental technician, xray technician, dental hygienist, nurse' aide, nursery school aide, all the various computer certifications (NT, etc.), medical technician, interior decorator, yadda yadda.

To get the college part of their technical certification, students almost all must pass standard lib. arts freshman classes like basic essay writing courses, calculus, intro to psych, and some form of history course. Then, even though many have never finished a novel in their lives or even know who Socrates or William the Conqueror are, they can then say they graduated from college, altho' their major was "cosmetology."

Failed Concepts
If the earnings of high school graduates and drop outs are falling, then that affects 80% of the work force. And perhaps that's what's fueling the sense some have that the nations on the wrong track. The rest are holding their own or rising, but these people are not. At the same time, the issue is the right college education, not just any college education. Liberal Arts degrees, whether in Poli Sci, Sociology, Economics, History, Philosophy, Fine Arts or the like, may be of interest to some, but the practical fact is that most leaving college with those degrees have no more opportunity for employment than a high school grad. There just are few or no private sector jobs for such degees - and never will be. If you parse the numbers further, you'll see the disconnect within the college grad category. Specific degree areas are in demand, and those salaries are lifting the average of all grads much higher. The practical fact is that the author needs to segment the degree areas, as does government. If they did, they'd find out very quickly that 1/2 or more of those grads aren't doing any better than those without degrees. Of course, the Universities would scream bloody murder because they' have to heavily downsize entire departments whose grads are being given those worthless sheep skins they pay so much money for. God forbid they do what industry does - which is adjust to market realities, rather than some failed concept.

Why Bush Likes No Child Left Behind?
Neil Bush’s firm under federal scrutiny

HC-The inspector general of the Education Department says he will review whether federal money is inappropriately being spent on education programs by a company founded by Neil Bush, the president’s brother.

Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, a Washington-based watchdog group, called for the inquiry and released a letter this week from the inspector general, John Higgins Jr.

In it, Higgins said he would ask an assistant inspector general to look into the group’s complaint.

CREW contends school districts are inappropriately using federal money for Ignite! programs. The group argues there is no proof the company’s products are effective and claims the schools are using the products due to political considerations.

READ MORE

http://controlcongress.com/uncategorized/why-bush-likes-no- child-left-behind

College job slots...
What's really interesting is that while 29% of the jobs currently coming on line in the US require college degrees, our universities and colleges just barely graduate 29% of the incoming workforce.

http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/p20-550.pdf

There is also no evidence whatsoever that the 28-29% being graduated are getting their degrees in anything like the degrees which the new jobs require.

The rest we get via H1b visas. Oddly, though, we severely restrict the number of H1b visas being issued while doing little if anything to prevent our borders being overrun with people possessing only rudimentary job and languages. We do this and then wonder why companies are increasingly outsourcing jobs requiring college level qualifications and are opening research and development labs overseas.

College is not a magic pill
and the fervent attempts to provide EVERYONE with a college education-regardless of merit- has succeeded in doing nothing more than cheapening the meaning of college education for most.

When public schools are mandated by law to take responsibility for educating and graduating "students" regardless of the student's personal performance, you can bet that the entire postsecondary system will to react to this like a dance partner. So, useless degree programs abound- and they are often saturated. I remember seeing my nephew's schedule from Syracuse University proudly displayed on the family fridge:

"The Concert Experience and You"
"On being a Chinese Woman In America"
"Beer and Wine Tasting"
"TV, Trivia, and Oldschool Theater"

This IS NOT the fault of teachers- it is the fault of our PC system that disables a disciplined system (which teachers prefer) and enables kids to go about with a sense of false achievement, which continues into many big business universities. Yet more bent reality in an attempt to create constant comfort and accommdation that yields the results of hard work and sacrifice.

On the whole, our society now rewards and encourages mediocrity and often outright failure. Ugh.

This article is so good, it's
like taking a hot bubble bath!


Garbage college majors
--
Consider this problem.

Back when I was an undergraduate in pre-med Biology, I had a relatively tough course load with a minimum of "gut" courses (the ones you could sleep through and be guaranteed a good grade).

Every Sunday morning, I awoke in the dormitory to hit the library or get over to the Science Center to take care of an ongoing experiment involving live lab animals.

In so doing, I invariably had to step over or around the inert, drunken bodies of fellow students who had "partied hearty" Saturday night.

These guys were - invariably! - people majoring in Business Administration or English Literature or Sociology or some other such brain-dead area.

Not Math majors. Not Physics or Chemistry majors. *NEVER* other pre-med guys like me.

Increasing the raw number of college graduates is not necessarily an economic desideratum.

What you need to do is increase the number of people who graduate in areas of specialization that represent *PRODUCTIVE* and therefore *MARKETABLE* function.

Using government budget to increase the "catch" of college students without requiring that they go into some sort of field in which they're actually likely to do something with that education that creates wealth, and you've wasted taxpayer dollars.

(The most commonly heard phrase uttered by the graduate in English Literature: "You want fries with that?")

Not that government should be in the business of extorting money from innocent citizens to fund college educations for anybody, but could we at least estalish that it's better for the country to crank out engineers than it is to get us an oversupply of Special Ed teachers?

--

A Plea For Vocational Schools
I would like to see a program carefully orchestrated to change public perception of jobs and the education or training for those jobs. A liberal arts college education is essential for some lines of work, but not for all lines of work, but we sell the idea that only losers don't go to college and that those self-same losers are the students who enter the trades. A lot of our vocational training is "on the job", and a lot of our tradesmen are working a la Amateur Night.

I wish we had excellent tech-based vocational high schools without the stigma in high schools that vocational school is for dumb kids. Our lives depend on our auto mechanics far more often than on our brain surgeons. And as I've posted before, the appliance repair technicians that come to my house most often resemble The Three Stooges (although they charge like brain surgeons). And I would like to see state licensure for the people who repair our refrigerators and washing machines and cars---as we have for the people who manicure our nails and cut our hair. This is not about further empowering the state but about establishing a standard so we know who we are hiring.

I have posted this before too but now get ready for it again: about ten years ago in Switzerland I saw an ad recruiting trainees to work for the Swiss rail system. They offered a paid two-year apprenticeship training program. Listen to me: this wasn't for driving the trains, it was for CLEANING the trains. Two years.

SJ Doc: On The Other Hand...
Having been an English major who spent ten and twelve hours at a time in the library---I remember one semester when I had fourteen research papers to write in sixteen weeks---I can relate to my husband's complaint. Although he got his undergraduate degree in 1950, he is still bitter about having spent all his afternoons in labs (he was a chemistry major) while his business school roommates played golf every day.

Okay, he!! just froze over
I agree with lilly!!! Absolutely. Trade/vocational school should NOT be stigmatized like it is now. They earn GOOD money and do necessary work. Nothing wrong with being an electrician, plumber, h/ac, repairman or any of a number of different skills that do NOT NEED college. But DO need training.

I had a friend that went looking for construction work. He finally pretended not to speak English so he could be hired. (American citizens needed a degree of some sort, illegals needed nothing.)

A degree is a horrible thing to waste
To commentator above -- as one with a Ph.D. in social science, I agree that the liberal arts don't offer strong prep for job market, but even worse is that the have been so hijacked by left wing goons that most majors are now indoctrination courses. Two points follow --

1. It is INSANE to ask taxpayers to belly up and give more money for higher ed. Might as well just pay that money to the Demo part directly as a recruitment allotment.

2. It is even MORE nuts for kids to go 1000's of dollars into loan debt to pay tuition that simply simply supports professors' summers off.

As a recent Grad...
After leaving Uncle Sam's Misguided Children, I became a college student while working full time. I will go out on a limb and say I was absolutely appalled by what goes on in the liberal arts core classes. Art: we looked at P!ss Christ and what a transcendant piece of art(?) it was. Economics: For the good of the community, it's ok to steal from some and give to others. Anthropology: Its the white hegemon that is responsible for indigenous culture's collapse. I'm the proud owner of a Computer Science degree, and for the life of me, I can't see what any of these classes did to help me design and write better code. Heaven help me, 'cuz I'm going to agree with Lilly (for once).

SJ Doc
I have a four-year degree in English Literature with a minor in Victorian History, and among the many things I learned to do that have served me well through a forty-year career path (21 of these in law offices) was to prepare a plan and follow through with it. This past week I had to arrange a trip to a weekend seminar for my boss, which I considered fairly routine in that I have been doing this for years for myself and others; however I have heard stories that some of the Work Life Girls who majored in Business made a lot of careless errors and omissions, and claimed that they were TOO BUSY to get the details right. You do not need a college education to answer basic questions about such things. You do need to be able to create a plan and follow it. Apparently this is a skill that is not taught in schools anymore. In our local schools it is ILLEGAL to deduct points for a late assignment. So why would a Work Life Balance Girl think it was a big deal if she *forgot* to note the time and location of a pre-seminar dinner on the bosses Blackberry accessible calendar? Or if she *was going to* confirm his hotel reservation only she *had* to go to lunch and then she *forgot*?

You should not have to go to college to learn these things. But you should be taught them SOMEWHERE.

Following the money
Whenever I hear some pol yap about "investing" in education, one hand reflexively checks my wallet while the other covers my mouth lest I barf.

Yes, we have too few people graduating with science/engineering degrees, but this may be due to the fact that people with talent in these areas realize they can make a lot more money in other fields. When the brains of the operation command salaries considerably less than that of the advertising director, who's to blame them for applying those brains elsewhere?

3 Things
More math/science emphasis through Grade 12 taught by qualified math/science teachers not just qualified teachers.

Outsource English classes in Grades 1 - 8 to the nuns.

No remedial college classes to do what the High Schools should have done. If you can't do the basics, no college for you. Let business get into the "remedial education" business.




plaasjaapie
Your posts are spot-on.

I would like to abolish colleges of education within our universities. Propective teachers would earn their degrees within colleges of arts and sciences.

Eliminate all the junk currently polluting the curriculum within colleges of education(specifically all the trash on "educational theory", "benefits of multiculturalism", "student self-esteem")and instead emphasize courses specific to the major or discipline of the prospective teacher, be it mathematics, english, chemistry.

I think the H1b visa program highlights what is wrong with our immigration policy. We purposely restrict from the U.S. the very people who possess the advanced degrees in the sciences, while allowing in hordes of persons with absolutely no skills or education.

That is criminal.

Dr.Ladner
I am never impressed by someone,who has a PHD and calls themselves Doctor.B.S.=Bull Sh-t,M.S.=More Sh-t,and PHD=Piled High & Deep.I hope you understand the subject matter.Drop the Dr.,it does not become YOU!!!!Don't let who you think you are,become greater than your message.Doc...

The World May Stand Still
Because I just agreed with Lily about something.

While requiring a 2 year degree to be permitted to handle a broom and a cleaning rag is nuts, I believe so strongly in the value of good technical training for fitting people to have a good life that I'm steering my kids in the direction of the skilled trades rather than college.

I own a BS which was the result of quite rigorous study. It is also completely useless. Since working in that field required a masters at least and a doctorate for a good job I was a severely overeducated waitress/short-order cook before I married.

A skilled plumber, mechanic, electrician, etc. will never starve for lack of work. And you can't outsource home repairs!

With a bit of ambition and application a person trained in these and other skilled trades is likely to achieve the hallmark of true success -- owning his/her own business.

The community I live in isn't the country club neighborhood, but it IS a very desirable one. And the demographics show that the #1 occupation for men in this town is "construction trades".

Remedial Classes
After spending ten years on active duty in the U S Navy and then working for ten years, I returned to college at UT/Chattanooga (that in tennesse not texas)(grad HS 1979, started UTC 1999)

I DID NOT have to take ANY remedial classes. I know I am not the smartest, but I do not understand how sooooooooo many youg adults right out of high school need these classes.

BTW I got my degree in 4 years and in Engineering


Mother
insisted that ALL teachers in K-12 should be ENGLISH/COMP teachers first, no matter what subject they were teaching.
Use of even just this standard would lower the costs created by remedial classes.

trade vs college
I do not have a college degree. I spent 4.5 years in college in 3 different majors and then got tired of it and started living life. I do regret not graduating, it would have made my mother happy.

However, I have had 2 careers that usually require a college degree: library tech and IT (developer, project mgr, QA mgr). The only college class I took that was remotely useful was English and that's because I had a terrific teacher who taught us how to write. Everything else I taught myself, learned on the job, or took trade classes.

You can't get a librarian position of any kind without a MASTER'S degree. I did everything they did - ran the Ref desk, cataloged books, managed the book and serial budget, etc. Given that librarians make very little money, I think it may be the worst return on a college investment ever.

The other advantage of skilled blue-collar jobs is that they can't be outsourced overseas, you have to be here physically to do the job. A journeyman-level pipefitter makes $35/hr, about the same as I do as a salaried IT consultant.

My 21-year-old son just got a merchandizing job with a beverage company making $26,000/year. They will pay for his CDL training so that he can delivery product and make at least $5/hr more. With only a high school diploma. With a CDL and some experience, he can eventually make far more as a truck driver. And this job also has full benefits including a pension.

School 'counselors' do kids a disservice by pushing everyone towards college. Not all people are attracted to academics and there are good alternatives. Not to mention not putting your kids in a alcohol and sex fueled environment for 4 years.

Our county does have a good tech school shared by all of the high schools. You can attend full or part-time during your junior and senior years and your credits count toward an associate's degree at the affiliated community college. It's an excellent program.


To Mother of 4
When I was teaching high school 35 years ago, every year when the list of optional summer course offerings came out I used to present my annual spiel to my college-prep students that they would do well to sign up for Bricklaying Basics (this was a nice suburban school where vocational courses were, er, not nice). I would tell them that if they had 15 years of school ahead, after high school, they would be in chronic need of money and they could make some real $$$ in the summers working construction. Otherwise they would find themselves shelving books in the university libraries for minimum wage. My bricklaying pitch became a part of the school joke folklore, but one year two of my male students actually acted on my suggestion and spent their summer learning enough about bricklaying to get hired as construction helpers. I never heard how that turned out, but I thought it was a good idea.

Same thing: I always urged my college-prep students to take typing. Real typing---touch typing like stenographers used to learn. I would always get the argument "I will be in college to learn, not to type, and I will pay somebody to type my papers". Yes, fine, I would say, and you'll need to have that paper ready about two weeks early to get it to the typist. In reality, you will still be writing it at 2 AM when it's due at 8 AM, so be able to type it yourself.

Personally, I went to high school in the bad old days when all girls were being prepared to be the secretaries of men so I can type like Hurricane Katrina and it has been more than useful to me as a recidivistic student---and even moreso after computer keyboards came along!

Statistics?
Measuring four-year graduation rates are worthless when most kids can't either get the needed--oops, I mean "required"--classes under their belt within four years. While attending freshmen orientation for both my sons (1998 and 2005), the school reps told parents NOT to expect a four-year timeline. Five years was closer.

Add to that the uncertainty of an 18-year-old's lifetime career choice and the resulting switch in majors. I can't blame them for not knowing--how could they know what they don't know?

Lilly is right, but for more than just the trade school. Neither son had any kind of hands-on skills training in high school that many from earlier generations used as entry into construction or the trades. Auto shop, wood shop, etc. In my early-70s high school, there was even a "construction science" program where boys built a home and sold it at the end of the school year.

The university system is missing the mark--many of our kids are not being prepared to be productive or self-supporting there.

There is hope, though... after two bachelor degrees, my older son finally found his calling as a paramedic. I suppose his $75k university pre-med education is useful, but it was sure the long way around.

Please, Keep Your Kids Out of College
I think it is great that you all find a college education so worthless. Please, keep your kids off campus. The fewer college grads there are out there, the better the prospects of my kids, all four of whom have gotten or are getting really nice educations.


Agreeing/disagreeing with Lily
She does occasionally write something worthwhile. Yes, voc-tech courses should be beefed up and the stigma of taking such courses should be removed. In actuality, many technical people earn more money than college-educated workers do. My husband and I are the example for that. I have advanced degrees and I make about 2/3 of what he makes with his electrician's license. This does not, however, prevent him from taking college courses and petitioning the state university system to grant him an AA degree in applied sciences. He's looking toward the day when his body simply can't continue to do the physical work of an electrician and he wants to move up into management -- which, often, required a degree -- any degree.

OTOH, Lilly is WRONG about licensing all technical people. Time was in my state you could hire a heating technician at a reasonable rate. Often, the heating tech had just OJT, but if you shopped you could find one who was certified by Lennox or one of the furnace manufacturers. Then a couple of years ago, the state got involved, requiring heating technicians to be licensed by the state. In order to take the test, they have to apprentice under a licensed heating tech for four years and that just allows them to work for another company. If they want to work for themselves, which has been the standard in Alaska, they have to pass a mechanical administrator's test, which requires four more years of documental work in the field, another test and another large fee for the license. Heating techs are getting out of the business because they can't afford to stay in. Guess what that has done to the cost of getting your furnace tuned? Yeah!!!

When government gets involved by licensing, the quality doesn't necessarily go up, but the cost sure does. There's a reason why most trade unions back government licensing. It rubber-stamps their members who are the only ones who can afford to get the licensing!

4 year Graduation Rates
4 year graduation rates are a myth. They may have been the norm in expensive private schools, but typical state school students have always taken more than four years to get a baccalaureate degree. This is especially true of students whose parents do not have college degrees.

The biggest factor in that reality is that students whose parents can't opay the full freight have always had to work. Students today are working more hours than ever. The need to take remedial courses is also a factor, but that is not some new development.

And finally, it's not surprising that so many of you view an education as nothing more than a means to a better job. There is a lot more to being educated than making more money. Even so, college graduates make more than non-college grads in every analysis, and those who have advanced degrees make even more.

Its still the best ticket to financial success and security



To aurorawatcher
Point of information: would you happen to know whether the private sector is addressing this problem? I had a neighbor from Germany whose son was trained as a mechanic at Volkswagen---this would have been around 1950. After they came to the US the boy worked his way up and for years now has owned a company with about 50 employees that makes some kind of machine parts. I wonder if there is anything comparable here? Whether the government sets up schools or business does; whether the state establishes standards and certifies competence or this is done in some other way; there seems to be a crying need for improvement in vocational ed.

To emcroysw
RE "I do not understand why so many hs grads have to take remedial courses": In my checkered past I have taught English to regular high school students, university freshmen, and night GED classes and I would say that GED is more demanding on the student than regular high school. First, most high school teachers will find a way of passing a kid who earnestly tries, no matter how profound his lack of academic gift. There are so many ways to do this---extra chances and re-takes, remedial work, extra-credit assignments, extra after-school help from Teacher. That extra effort on both sides doesn't mean the kid turns into a scholar, but he probably ends up in college anyway, still floundering. And HUGE pressure is exerted on teachers by administrators so that all well-meaning and effort-making kids will be graduated, for humanitarian reasons. To a lesser extent the same situation applies at the college level although the teacher has more power, the administration less, unless the situation gets truly crazy.

The GED exam, on the other hand, is (or it was when I was doing it, which is some years ago) graded impersonally by strangers far-far away. You make the numbers or you don't. Kids who fluffed off in high school just about go into shock when they discover what GED life is like. The GED curriculum was handed down as a fait accompli and it was neither a piece of cake nor "individualized" as HS work often is (has to be). My field was English but for a brief hideous time I was working with GED math students and thought the curriculum was harder than anything I remembered from my own high school days.

Who knows what the answer is. Maybe we should have college-bound kids passing the GED instead of the SAT.

To redlac
There is some truth to what you say, but it's not the whole story. A degree in English, if the program and the student are any good, should make that young person very competent to use written language. What's that good for? Two real-life examples.

A friend's son majored in English at a US university then went off to Oxford for the equivalent of our MA (while his father fumed that the boy wasn't learning to earn a living). The kid came home and took a clerk-level job with the federal government then went up the ladder zippety-zap and in a few years had a very impressive job as administrator in a science-based agency. Why? Because he wrote beautifully. Then he was recruited to be CEO of a private-sector outfit in England. Again why? Because he wrote beautifully. His jobs were all about writing grants and proposals and summaries and abstracts.

Next example: one of my long-ago high school students went on to do an Honors major in English then after a few years got an MS in Computer Science. She put the two together and became writer of Computer Science-related articles and documentation, did that for a while, then became an expert in Internet banking where her ability to, all together now, write beautifully, is the backbone of her work in research and marketing, and the money she makes is very nice.

English majors can do lots more than talk about metaphysical conceits and TS Eliot's objective correlative.

No Love Here?
I am not seeing much in this thread about "The love of learning/ The sequester'd nooks/ And all the sweet serenity of books". Some students fall in love with their material, and that's it. A serious student of the violin may practice 8 or 10 hours a day. When a kid's imagination catches fire in history, and spending 12 hours in the library feels to him like Home & Mother, then what's wrong with him going on to graduate school and becoming a professor, researcher, writer of history? When a kid is turned on by chemistry and doesn't mind standing at the bench for most of his young life, should he not be encouraged to wallow in, pun intended, his element? And yes, he may very well join Corporate America and be well-paid for developing a new color of soap---but he may also opt to teach chemistry to the young or do the kind of basic research that, to most of us, sounds esoteric and weird (my husband once brought home a paper from a scientific conference that had included The Mucopolysaccharide Glycoprotein Group Social Hour).

Townhallers sometimes sound as if the only dream they have for their sons and daughters is life in the business world. People, if you have a cellist or a folklorist, send him CARE packages and respect him, because he is carrying the torch of civilization. Education ain't all bad.

Lilly and Jack,
Getting an education has very little to do with spending money on course credits at an institution. Too many kids major in party, major in intro to, or major in fluff for an observant person to conclude that a love of learning for learning's sake has much to do with the modern college experience.

If you do spend the kind of money a college charges these days you ought to be able to expect some kind of return on it. If that return on investment isn't going to come at a reasonable level or in a reasonable amount of time in the form of a better life than you would otherwise have had then its wiser to pursue a suitable type of technical training while indulging your love of learning in your free time via the many possible venues available.

As for writing well, the ability to form a clear, straightforward, sensible piece of prose is (or should be) a high school level skill. And writing too can be taught on a technical level through independent, self-taught work or by the investment of a far more modest amount of money in correspondence courses.

As a final note – don’t disparage the beauty and creativity involved in the work on one’s hands. A few episodes of “Holmes on Homes” will open your eyes to the way skilled tradesmen can create beauty in a job done well – even if it is “only” in the proper wiring of an electrical panel -- and attain a little piece of eternity with each job done well.

My father, an unhappy chemist who became a happy repairman, taught me to see the beauty and elegance of a job done right when I was a child. There is more intellect, more beauty, and more art in the proper plumbing and wiring of a house than in an entire museum full of the “transgressive”, post-modern “art” one is likely to encounter in college.

Mom of 4
Your sentiment is fine. My father was a tradesman; my mother a librarian. I got both sides of the equation, ande take great pride in academic achievement as well as being able to renovate my home by myself.

But no one here is disagreeing with that. The fact is that well educated people make their way in the practical world just fine, far more effectively than those who are not well educated. There are certainly many exceptions, but the numbers do not lie.

You characterization of college students is only partly accurate. Students who persist through their freshman year become increasingly serious. Graduate students are generally even more so. It has pretty much always been like that.

What we read in these pages shows that there is a powerful anti-intellectual element in the conservative world.

Jack
No, not an anti-intellectual element. Its an anti-fashionable B.S. element.

A person educates himself. Colleges *can* provide an appropriate environment for that self-education but they don't necessarily do so and, to the extent that they do, its often possible to find a better deal on the same thing for less money.

More and more, colleges have become a sort of expensive day care/social club rather than places where real learning occurs. Society can do without that in the information age where nearly anything one might choose to access is instantly available via a computer.

My retired mother is keeping her brain sharp taking such courses in Roman history and philosophy without one penny wasted on funding womens' volleyball, presentations of "The Vagina Monologues", or school club support money that ends up spent on kegs of beer for parties. She didn't have to submit any paperwork and she doesn't have to wait for tardy students to stop disrupting her classes or listen to politically active professors ranting about topics other than Roman history and philosophy.

More of the Same
Don't kid yourself. It is not an anti BS attitude, it is an anti-intellectual attitude. Conservatives tend to find the academic process problematic. That's too bad, becase they disparage it and then complain they aren't part of it.

Like I said originally, I am all for your decision to keep your kids out of higher education. You ARE going to keep your kids out of college, aren't you?

If your mom chose to read about the status of education from ancient Rome forward, onething she woudl find is that the complaints you make are the same complaints people have been making for 1200 years.




Rome
Technically Rome collapsed in the 5th century AD, or about 350 years before you assert people complained about this issue. Ancient Rome would be anywhere from 5th century BC to 5th Century AD, so then people have been complaining about this for 2400-1500 years...if you're correct about this that is.

Other than knowing the correct dates of ancient Rome, an intellectual might also know that having kids pay $40,000 to get an education to get a job that did not require a degree, but also cost those kids income over the course of those 4-6 years, is bad. If the job with or without college was to be $25,000 a year, then a 4 year degree technically cost the kid $140,000 to earn. Meaning had they not gone to college they would be better off by $140,000.

That's a lot of PBS documentaries on Rome to catch up on your history.
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