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Saturday, May 30, 2009
Doug Giles :: Townhall.com Columnist
WWJT: Who Would Jesus Torture?
by Doug Giles
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A Christian radio show host asked me the other day how I could, as a believer, be cool with waterboarding terrorists for intel crucial to our national security—or, as I like to call it, the implementation of the Irrigation for Information Act. Irrigation sounds so much more pleasant than torture, oui? Oui.

I told my inquiring host that as a patriotic white male Christian redneck, as far as I can deduce from the holy text, Jesus and the balance of Scripture seem to be okay with dunking Achmed if said butt munch has the 411 regarding the 10/20 of the next mass slaughter of innocent Americans. Call me crazy. I’m well aware, however, that I could be committing an exegetical error given the fact that I’m white and male and all. This is my cross.

Please note: If Christ wasn’t cool with irrigating irate Islamicists for facts, I must admit, I would still have to green light our boys getting data from enemy combatants 007 style. Stick a fire hose up their tailpipe and turn it on full blast. I don’t care. I’m not as holy as most of you super saints or as evolved as some of you progressive atheists purport to be. Security beats spirituality in this scenario, as far as I’m concerned.

Now, as you can imagine, the holier-than-I show host was a tad bit taken aback by my confidence and giddiness over teaching captured terrorists how to snorkel minus the snorkeling gear if it would keep our country safe. He saw that as somehow incongruent with the Clay Aikenization of the sassy Christ a stack of Americans now worship. He then asked me, in kind of a tsk-tsk tone, for a proof text or two from Jesus’ lips and la Biblia that would come even close to him wishing or implementing ill on those who would harm or kill the innocent. This was like taking candy from a baby for me.

How’s this for starters, Slappy? In John 2:12-17 Jesus whipped religious hacks who were turning God’s temple into a Costco for religious crap. According to San Juan’s account, it was the second thing Jesus did after John baptized him in the river Jordan. The first thing he did was turn water into wine. That’s two things lame evangelicals can’t imagine Jesus doing: making wine or using a whip, but I digress.

Yep, Jesus opened up a can of whup ass on charlatans in the temple. He didn’t pray for them or write them an angry email with the caps lock on or call them “man-made religious disasters” that we need to apologize to for forcing them to sell overpriced spiritual curios. Nope, he methodically sat down, got ticked, made a whip and cleared the punks.

Having that snapshot of Christ violently snapping on the 1st century televangelists in the temple, I’m a thinkin’ that if he got that riled up over overpriced Precious Moments figurines, personally whipped the culprits for it and then ransacked their product display tables, more than likely he would be cool with submerging a couple of murderous morons who have information regarding the pending liquidation of thousands of innocent civilians. (And by the way, I’ll take water in the face over a whip to the back any day of the week.)

If you still think he would have problems with waterboarding the wicked who have the poop on potential terror plots, then what do you do with the story of Noah’s Ark? Correct me if I’m wrong, but those chumps got waterboarded to the max, right? Aw, what’s the matter? Does that 411 not fit with the Jesus you made up? Shame.

Not only did Jesus flog greedy religious freaks, he, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit, created this little place called hell for the wicked—which makes Gitmo look like a Chuck E. Cheese. Although, come to think of it, Chuck E. Cheese is quite hellish. Bad analogy. You get my point.

In Matthew 18:6 Jesus said if you harmed a little kid it would be better for you to have a chunk of concrete tied around your neck and tossed into the drink off Miami Beach compared to what the Trinity has prepared for you in eternity (author’s paraphrase). Sounds bad, eh? Worse than waterboarding? I’m thinking . . . yeah.

And then we have the book of Revelation. Yikes. This book is one chapter after another of agony on steroids for those that war against that which is holy, just and good.

So, once again, I’m kinda thinkin’ Hey-Soos wouldn’t blink at how cautiously and methodically our intelligence gents have been in pouring some Zephyr Hills down Habeeb’s nostrils in the hope that such “torture” will make him spill the beans regarding his posse’s plans.

Y’know, maybe I would be more empathetic toward the terrorists who wish to kill us if I were a Hispanic woman from the Bronx, but alas, I ain’t. So, I say, in the name of Jesus, water baptize the bastards for an extra minute or two if that’ll persuade them to unveil their buddy’s macabre machinations.

Granted, it’s always great and right to err on the side of civility, except of course when saving many lives trumps the uncomfortable nature of sticking a garden hose in a terrorist’s snout.

WWJD indeed!

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About The Author
Doug Giles’ new book “If You're Going Through Hell, Keep Going!" is now available. Ann Coulter says "Doug Giles is a substantive and funny tour de force for traditional values.” Doug’s talk show and video blog can be seen and heard at www.ClashRadio.com.
 
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Chuck E Cheese
Actually not a bad analogy!

Fred
The ones in Al Qaida who coordinated the attacks on 9/11. Also the Taliban who allied and protected them. We waited far too long to go into Afghanistan, about 45 days after 9/11 and we've handled that war wrong ever since.

Yes, the globalists do exist and they are plundering the people using the Federal Reserve and other means, but Afghanistan, a mess largely created by us and our "friends" the Pakistani government (whom we support even though Mushariff overthrew a DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED government *please note this neocons*), needed to be bought to justice for their act of murder anyway.

You can't bundle all the nation's problems into one and blame one entity for all of them. That's what many many progressives do, and the neocons do as well. Afghanistan's problems were started by interventionism but it doesn't excuse Al Qaida and the Taliban and their act of mass murder. Iraq, on the other hand, should never have been invaded.

http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2002/cr091002.htm - Ron Paul in a speech prior to the Iraq War

Yet the US has prosecuted men for this!
Sculptyr//sol
Location: CA
Reply # 1
Date: Jun 2, 2009 - 2:28 AM EST Jim Location: CO

Waterboarding is legal.
Torture is illegal.
But didn't you claim that Waterboarding is torture?
Obviously not the legal definition of torture.

>But it is torture:

During the Phillipine insurection it was used by the US Army, President Teddy Roosevelt dismissed Gen. Jacob H Smith from the Army for these actions.

During WWll, Airman Chase J Nelson, a captured member of the Doolittle raid was waterboarded by the Kempeitai ... the US put them on trial for war-crimes afterwards.

Texas under Gov. George W Bush, prosecuted a county sheriff and him sentenced to 10 years in prison for waterboarding a prisoner ... Bush did not pardon him.

So if it isn't torture ... then under what rule of law and for what crimes were these various men prosecuted for?<

Jim Location: CO
Thank you for the response.
That sheds some light.

>Because it is still not illegal ... it can still be used with the consent of the AG and the President. Congress attempted to close that loophole.<

Waterboarding is legal.
Torture is illegal.
But didn't you claim that Waterboarding is torture?
Obviously not the legal definition of torture.

I doubt that "Fred" will see this, but
He proved that he is a typical liberal lying coward who takes a statement from another person totally out of context in order to make his point.

In his post #167 he uses PART of a comment I made in post #127 to make it look like I'm happy that Tiller was murdered.

Here is what he quoted: "there's many who would agree with his happiness and sentiment that "A baby killer is dead.""

But that is not the whole comment. THIS IS:
"Dag speaks for Dag, no one else. Although there's many who would agree with his happiness and sentiment that "A baby killer is dead."

"I challenge ANYONE, from either side who's happy that Tiller was murdered. I'm glad there's one less murderer of unborn babies in the world, but I'd much rather have seen him brought to justice by the court system and sent to prison to rot for the rest of his miserable life."

Next time you want to quote me Fred, you coward, quote me in context or not at all. QUOTE WHY I SAID PEOPLE WOULD BE HAPPY THAT A BABY KILLER WAS DEAD.
BECAUSE THERE IS NOW ONE LESS PERSON IN THE WORLD WHO MURDERS UNBORN BABIES FOR A LIVING.

What a piece of sh1t coward you are.

Because it is torture
Skulptyr//sol
Location: CA
Reply # 1
Date: Jun 2, 2009 - 12:42 AM EST Jim Location: CO
If you say waterboarding is legal, then it can't be called torture because torture is illegal.

If you say waterboarding is illegal, why would congress in 2008 attempt to pass legislation that would make waterboarding illegal? Instead, why not enforce the existing laws?


>Because it is still not illegal ... it can still be used with the consent of the AG and the President. Congress attempted to close that loophole.<

Hayden: Waterboarding used on three prisoners:


CIA Director Gen. Michael Hayden said last week that current law and court decisions, including the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005, cast doubt on whether waterboarding would be legal now. Hayden prohibited its use in CIA interrogations in 2006; it has not been used since 2003, he said.

The Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 prohibited cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment for all detainees in U.S. custody, including CIA prisoners.

In comments last week to the House Intelligence Committee, Hayden acknowledged for the first time publicly that the CIA has used waterboarding against three prisoners.

The technique is still officially in the CIA tool kit but it requires the consent of the attorney general and president on a case-by-case basis.



Jim Location: CO
If you say waterboarding is legal, then it can't be called torture because torture is illegal.

If you say waterboarding is illegal, why would congress in 2008 attempt to pass legislation that would make waterboarding illegal? Instead, why not enforce the existing laws?

Not sure what you want
Skulptyr//sol
Location: CA
Reply # 1
Date: Jun 1, 2009 - 11:25 PM EST Jim Location: CO
Because you are an "expert" on torture, I'll ask you this easy question. I've asked 'Taft' this same question 5 times; he won't answer.

Torture has been illegal in the USA for many, many years.

You claim that waterboarding as practiced by the CIA is torture, which would render said practice illegal.

Why did the Senate voted Feb 2008 to make illegal the CIA use of waterboarding?

> I'm guessing because they had only found out in 2008 that the Bush WH had memos authorising the use of these "enhanced" techniques when the NYT first reported this.

Still it was rather moot point since the CIA quit using waterboarding in 2003 ... while their own IG issued a report in 2004 saying that waterboarding was probably illegal and did not give any actionable intelligence.<

Jim Location: CO
Because you are an "expert" on torture, I'll ask you this easy question. I've asked 'Taft' this same question 5 times; he won't answer.

Torture has been illegal in the USA for many, many years.

You claim that waterboarding as practiced by the CIA is torture, which would render said practice illegal.

Why did the Senate voted Feb 2008 to make illegal the CIA use of waterboarding?

But, it's scary!
"waterboarded two suspected terrorists 266 times in attempts to extract information."

Just a bit misleading. According to the Red Cross report, three terrorists were subjected to waterboarding sessions for a total of 15 times. 266 was the number of times water was poured on their faces.

As a kid, when I surfed, I was close to drowning on numerous occasions.
Scary.
10 minutes later I was back in the water surfing.

Waterboarding: simulated drowning with a doctor monitoring at all times.

Surfing: REAL drowning; not knowing if the wave that buries me into the sand will ever let me breathe again. Much scarier.
I didn't experience any psychological pain.

Then try it
DEBBIE
Location: OH
Reply # 9
Date: Jun 1, 2009 - 3:14 PM EST torture?
I am still not convinced that waterboarding is torture (where is the pain? the scars?). This is my answer to any to any fellow Christian who asks.



>Neither did this Conservative radio host believe it was torture ... until he had it done to him. Changed his tune real quick!<


Conservative Radio Host who got Waterboarded Admits Technique may produce Bogus Intelligence

David Edwards and John Byrne
Raw Story
Wednesday, May 27, 2009


“They compare it to drowning,” Muller added. “I drowned as a kid and had to be revived. This is worse. This isn’t gulping for air. Your brain is shut off. This is water at the back of your skull, a gallon of water poured down my nose; I had a Marine do it. It was good night Irene, game over… I thought I could go 30 seconds. Big deal they sprinkle water [but] it’s a big deal. It is torture.”

“I was willing to prove and ready to prove that this was a joke and I was wrong,” Muller continued. “It was horrific. It was instantaneous and look I felt the effects for two days. I had chest pains. I told my wife, look I have two little kids– we prayed. I said dear god help me. I had chest pains I was so stressed out by this.”

Mancow also revealed that his friend Sean Hannity “called me and said ‘it’s still not torture.’ I said, ‘Sean, you’re a friend of mine, but it is still torture.”

Tammy Location: IL
Yuor claim:
"And don't call people who want to treat every
single person who has ever been born as a child of God wimps. It doesn't mean that we are obligated to let them roam free, but they are children of God just as you are. "

Sorry, but I prefer what Jesus said.

{They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God."
Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me."(John 8:41,42)

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him."}(John 8:44)

And I believe what the gospel writer said:

{But as many as received Him(Jesus), to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.}
(John 1:12,13)

Pagan civil values
Giles columns reflect nothing but civil religion of the worst kind. The hate and violence which he continuously espouses are utterly opposed to the Word of God, Jesus Christ.

Even if Christ opposed it, Giles is for waterboarding. Well, good to know where he stands. He has just denied Christ. And most of the blind followers of this spiritually and theologically blind guide don't seem to notice. Yeah, to hell with that greatest commandment stuff. Jesus obviously didn't know what he was talking about.

Do you people really believe that this is the Christian way?

ESSAY NOT FOR WUSSIES
Right on! I say tear em up and let God sort em out. (Old Southern expression, cleaned up for TH)

I'm not a Bible scholar,
so someone else can look this up, but, for an excerpt from Mark Twain's "Letters From The Earth," in which he opines about the lengths to which God will go, including against those who "pisseth against the wall." http://www.classicreader.com/book/1930/11/

I do seem to remember something about God using ten plagues to convince the Egyptians to "let my people go." David smiting Goliath. Samson pulling the temple down. Smiting the Philistines with the jawbone of a liberal. There are numerous examples of what God would do, or have His servants do.

I tend to agree with Doug Giles that God would probably not get too worked up over waterboarding, unless it got to be fun for those doing the waterboarding.

Total misunderstanding
To twist Christ's radical message of defeating evil with love, not violence, is truly despicable.

Victoria
"C'mon, who do we really think God is pleased with? The person who dumps water down a murderous terrorist's nose (in the presence of a doctor, under a timed situation) to get information that saves thousands of innocent lives-Or the wimps who want to patty-cake with them and let people die? Is this hard?"

****
It is too bad that people who genuinely want please God have such a horrible image of him. Not only that, they seem to be particularly ignorant about human nature. You have only Cheney's assumption that millions of lives were saved because of torture. I would be anything this is nothing more than an assumption, and I am being charitable in not calling it a flat out lie.

Do some internet research and find out about the prisoner who was given sugar-free cookies.
He was a diabetic. He gave up information. We have no proof of any other situation.

And don't call people who want to treat every
single person who has ever been born as a child of God wimps. It doesn't mean that we are obligated to let them roam free, but they are children of God just as you are.

Tea Party

Oh give it a rest. Childbirth is also torture, and it lasts a whole lot longer. Having to live with a parent who doesn't want you is also torture and lasts even longer still.

Good Goin'
Thanks Doug.

I'm a granny and I enjoy the way you write. I, too, am sick of milquetoast Christianity. Mediocre anything has never appealed to me, I'm unable to tolerate compromisers when it comes to the most important thing in the universe and that's our relationship with God and knowing His ways.

C'mon, who do we really think God is pleased with? The person who dumps water down a murderous terrorist's nose (in the presence of a doctor, under a timed situation) to get information that saves thousands of innocent lives-Or the wimps who want to patty-cake with them and let people die? Is this hard?

Yes, the wrath of God is coming to an unbelieving world. God desires mercy over judgment, but His Spirit will not always strive with man. There is a measuring in the spirit realm, and the "cup of iniquity" is almost full. We live in a bubble of time. It's coming to a close.

torture?
I am still not convinced that waterboarding is torture (where is the pain? the scars?). This is my answer to any to any fellow Christian who asks.

Water boarding
This was so funny I wish I had not read it at work as I was screaming. You are also right on every count!!

You have already identified yourself
As a pervert and not worth communicating with.

You and Fred are worthless immoral creeps who stir up hate out of your own filthy lying minds.
======================

matter of fact writes:- 12:36 PM EST
Talent
How many times have you yourself responded to someone who believes in free choice for women as a "baby Killer"?
=======================

Never once said anything like that.

Abortion for birth control is murder.
That is what I say cause it is.

You are disgusting

Another biblical model: Elisha
Stick this in your theological pipe, and puff a few times.

II Kings 6:14-18 recounts when the army of Aram was sent to capture Elisha the prophet, and how at Elisha's request, God struck the entire army blind, so that one old man could lead them on a helpless march from Dothan to Sumaria, whereupon they were captured.

Why was the King of Aram so ticked off at Elisha? Because Elisha knew the secret plans of the king, and thwarted them repeatedly with timely warnings to the King of Israel.

God is more than able to reveal the secrets of our enemies, and to judge their actions in response to a faith-filled prayer. Waterboarding might be fun, but the real havoc starts when the prophets are at work...

Milquetoast
I pray for the end of holier-than-thou milquetoast Christianity, which has neither Biblical support, nor real life application. It has rendered the church useless.

Your essay reminds me of the disgust I feel when pastors say that christians can never lie under ANY circumstances (like there are no Jews in my closet) even to save someone's life. Guess they never heard of Rahab.

What nonsense these men(?) teach who have spent their entire lives in academia and the protected environment of the church. They are more akin to hot house flowers than healthy humans.

As an older person, I think your language is sometimes silly, but since your target audience likely attended public school, I understand your intent, and say keep up the good work.

Talent
How many times have you yourself responded to someone who believes in free choice for women as a "baby Killer"?

But Talent
"To take any persons murder and blame anyone but the killer "

That's what conservatives do all the time - they accuse all liberals of being baby killers.
If I had a buck for every time I've been accused of killing babies I'd be rich.

You only see what you want to see, Talent.

I will not tear up myself
Over this man's death.
======================

Fred writes:
12:12 PM EST
Talent
A quote from USMCLT:

"there's many who would agree with his happiness and sentiment that "A baby killer is dead."
=======================

Ok, but you will take what one person says and use it to accuse others.

That is as wicked as rejoicing over the death of a baby or Tiller.

I have no joy in anything about Tiller, not his killing innocent lives or the taking of his life by a crime.

To use this crime as if being against the abortion racket is party to murder of this man is as evil as you can get yourself and are no better than the killer of Tiller.

To take any persons murder and blame anyone but the killer is as bad as supporting murder yourself Fred.


Talent - a little read
"As news of Roeder's arrest traveled, Kansas City activist Regina Dinwiddie is a signer
of the 1990s statement, which declares that the use of force is justified.

Dinwiddie said she does not consider death of Tiller, the nation's most prominent provider of controversial late-term abortions, to be a homicide.

Gee, Talent, looks like you are a majority of one.

You are a sick liar Fred
Fred
"You come to make outrageous accusations against innocent people on TH who had nothing to do with Tiller l"
=====================

Fred writes: - 12:04 PM EST
Talent
I've seen the accusations you've made against all Democrats because of pro-choice views who've never had anything to do with a single abortion.
=======================
You are a liar.
You have never seen any such accusation from me ever.
Not once as I do not say that nor would I say that.
You are a willful liar Fred.

=======================

Fred writes:


Sorry, Talent, all the name calling you can muster up isn't going to change this fact.
======================

Calling you a liar is not an accusation, its a description of your false accusations.

You are a liar and a willful liar at that.
A dishonest man, a worthless false accuser.

Willful liars are extremists of filth Fred.
Work on yourself as you have nothing to offer any one else

Isn't it interesting
That Town Hall has obviously decided to ignore this event?

If you don't talk about it, it didn't happen.

Talent
A quote from USMCLT:

"there's many who would agree with his happiness and sentiment that "A baby killer is dead."

What does it feel like to rejoice in the death of another human being? Personally, I've never rejoiced in an abortion, I'll leave death-pleasure up to conservatives.

Actuall,y, Talent
"These samy lying snakes like Fred will excuse all blacks for any blame of inner city murder, rape and robbery."

It looks like you are chastizing liberals for not blaming all blacks for inner city crimes.

I know that's a difficult thing for conservatives to comprehend ,I guess we're just funny that way.

Talent
"You come to make outrageous accusations against innocent people on TH who had nothing to do with Tiller l"

I've seen the accusations you've made against all Democrats because of pro-choice views who've never had anything to do with a single abortion.

Sorry, Talent, all the name calling you can muster up isn't going to change this fact.

I seen what Dag said, Fred
But I am looking at YOU and what you are here saying your hypocrite.

You come to make outrageous accusations against innocent people on TH who had nothing to do with Tiller let alone Kansas or his murder.
Yet hypocrites like you will lie and use that crime to accuse the innocent of that crime.
You demented fool.


======================

Fred writes: 11:45 AM EST
Talent Scout
Dag is only one among many ofn Town Hall, Talent. Take a look at all the posts, and you will see Tiller's murderer being referred to as a hero.

Vendors could avoid the whip :-)
I can support just application of waterboarding based on the just war doctrine, but that doesn't mean Christ would have done it. He didn't tie anyone up when he got out the whip. He gave them freedom to get out of the way. Jesus whiped the temple vendors precisely because they were distorting who he was just like the scribes had done in the Noah story and just like you are doing in your article. He is a loving God, not a vengefull one Just because we are imperfect and have to resort to waterboarding, doesn't mean Christ would. He didn't create hell, we did when we chose to turn away from Him.

The person who murdered Tiller
Deserves a fair trial first of all, let the Justice run its course.

If found guilty of murder then he should be put to death himself.

The lying "liberals" like Fred and others are hypocrites. lying snakes with poison in their mouths.

They will come here and use this crime to accuse everyone who is against abortion as being party to this murder.

These samy lying snakes like Fred will excuse all blacks for any blame of inner city murder, rape and robbery.

Fred is insane and he thinks he is pure.

He is an idiot and a liar.
Nothing less or more

Talent Scout
Dag is only one among many ofn Town Hall, Talent. Take a look at all the posts, and you will see Tiller's murderer being referred to as a hero.

Maybe I'll paste them and post them for you.

And while we're at it
Let's waterboard Bill O'Reilly, who has unrelentingly identified Tiller as a "mass murderer" a "Nazi" and has desparately worked for Tiller's death without ordering any specific person to do it.

Here's an idea
Let's waterboard Tiller's murderer - he could easily be called a domestic terrorist, and as you all seem to be saying, it's just a way of having a little fun, anyway.

Fred
Dag is wrong to rejoice over murder.
And you are just a freaking liar.

No person who is against abortion as the destruction of human life is then for taking of human life through crime.

Every murderer deserves the Judgment of eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.

And every lying idiot like you deserves the scorn of all honest people

Talent Scout
"Conservatives condemn such depraved actions as murder you moron."

funny, just reading up this post I see all kinds of conservative posts rejoicing in murder, you moron. Take a look at Dag's posts from yesterday, which everyone obviously agreed with.

Torture and murder seem to be some kind of conservative/religious specialty, you're all so supportive of it.

You know, conservatives like to think that liberals murder babies (that's the rhetoric). I support women's health and the removal of government dictates from free choices for one's own body, but I have never rejoiced in an abortion of any kind.

A little different than canonizing Tiller's murder, or the intentional deaths of prisoners in American systems I would say.

Even if you're referring to Muslim
fanatics, who are an extreme minority within the muslim world, you should learn to identify just who it is you are talking about. Most of these pathetic groups have neither the money or the power to attack anybody except school children in their own countries, most are so busy fighting among themselves they don't even care what Americans are doing.

It's the right-wing press and internet blogs that skew the facts which you are so eager to swallow whole.

oogy
"no, I don't think 9/11 is an accident, I blame the Islamists did it"

Which ones, Oogy? The ones who live in Chechnya? West Africa? China? the Suunis? The Shiites? Those who live in the Detroit suburbs? Morocco?

So many people to torture!! So little time!!



God is just
But non-violent? Gimme a break. The vast majority of us will burn in hell for eternity, possibly (probably?)myself. By the way, I'm not joking. The idea that God and the remaining members of the trinity do not suffer the presence of violence in the universe and use it to mete out justice is blind nonsense. Where people go wrong is assuming that they act in the place of God in making use of it. The state acts within this system in meting out justice and just war. One need only read St. Augustine's writings regarding the use of torture and the death penalty in civil cases to acquire insight into this. He abhors the use of both and wishes the state to stop the use thereof, but NEVER implies that it is not within the rightful power of the state to do so.

Isn't Rocket Science
My 13-year-old granddaughter said it best:

If Jesus wouldn't splash water (much less sprain the pinkie) on a rabid terrorist's face to save a thousand (forget a million) people from a horrid death, of what use would Christianity be?

James Greenidge
Queens, NY

WWJT
Tiller The Baby Killer

My Bad.....He Just Did

Bible / torture
If you can use the bible to justify torture then I'd ask what the book CAN'T be used to justify.

Then again, I've already seen it used to justify continuing slavery (and also ending it), stoning children to death, opposing the death penalty and also continuing it, etc etc, so I don't know exactly why I'm surprised.

But does it work?

talent scout
Location: CO
Reply # 3
Date: Jun 1, 2009 - 1:57 AM EST Jim
You cannot hold the Government to turn the other cheek to evil.

Government is required to provide protection and justice.



That still doesn't answer the question ... does torture work, whether used by a government to fight for or against evil? It obviously did not help the Roman's to convince the Christians being fed to the lions to rethink their belief in Jesus did it? Nor were the Nazi's use of horrific tortures against the various resitance groups in Europe and Russia able to stop them.

If it was so effective ... why did the CIA only use it for one year from 2002 to 2003? If it so effective ... why don't our own courts just dispense with the jury system and torture the accused into admitting their guilt?

You call that torture?
"waterboarded two suspected terrorists 266 times in attempts to extract information", someone said.

Just a bit misleading. According to the Red Cross report, three terrorists were subjected to waterboarding sessions for a total of 15 times. 266 was the number of times water was poured on their faces.

As a kid, when I surfed, I was close to drowning on numerous occasions.
Scary.
Five minutes later I was back in the water surfing.

Waterboarding: simulated drowning with a doctor monitoring at all times.

Surfing: REAL drowning; not knowing if the wave that buries me into the sand will ever let me breathe again. Much scarier.
I didn't experience severe psychological pain.

LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF
Jesus said:
(Mark 12:31) "..you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.(ref. Deuteronomy 6:5) The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these (ref.Leviticus, 19:18) ."

You would want me for your neighbor, because I would use as much force as necessary to protect you and your family from murderous thugs.

Jim
You cannot hold the Government to turn the other cheek to evil.

Government is required to provide protection and justice.
That is a duty that is God given, just as it was with Moses.

The Law that God gave Moses required retribution for evil.
Death for felonies.

As I understand it, the question of the way water was used on 3 people was considered lawful by the Government.

No one has any right to ex post facto that decision.
The only thing that can be done is stop it from now on if its not considered legal.


"Isn't everything we do a "personal attitude"?"

Individuals yes, not governments.

The government provides a justice system, as an individual I cannot take justice into my hands and be a vigilante.

Which is what this scripture speaks of.

Mt 5:39 -
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.


This speaks of the Justice of law and government.

Mt 5:17 -
Think not that I am come to destroy the law

Joycey no we shout
give me liberty or give me death...and that includes liberty from folks like you

Robert

This is a really disgusting article.
Honestly, Doug Giles, what a gross misunderstanding of spiritual wisdom you have just displayed.

You're at about the kindergarten level of understanding Christ.

Get yourself to sunday school and start with the basics!

Would Jesus really torture?
talent scout
Location: CO
Reply # 20
Date: May 31, 2009 - 8:43 PM EST Jim
You are taking scriptures out of context with the point Doug Giles is writing about.

This is about the US Government protecting this nation.

You are quoting scriptures that address personal attitudes.

Big difference and are not any part of the subject of this thread


Isn't everything we do a "personal attitude"? If torture works ... then wouldn't Christianity have been still-born in the Roman coloseum where they suffered far worse then waterboarding and still kept their faith? To say that Jesus would go along with torture would be like using Jesus tossing the money changers out of the temple as proof that he believes in greed!

The point you miss is that the CIA quit using these practices in 2003 even before the IG Report that came out in 2004 said they may be illegal and did not work. And yet as Cheney keeps pointing out ... Bush still kept us safe!

P
No, I don't think 9/11 is an accident, I blame the Islamists and I also haven't abandoned my logic as the neocons have. The fact is that our interventionism really spurred them on and it most likely would not have happened if we weren't interventionists. If we weren't "helping" then many Kurds and Kuwaiti's would be alive, and perhaps defeating the Taliban wouldn't have been needed. Perhaps less American soldiers would have died from American weapons wielded by the Taliban. It's a sad fact, and we have to face it. We need to stop kidding ourselves and be honest. We need to stop defending Bush, now's the time to turn around. I admit to defending him even though I knew I really shouldn't have back when I was a neocon on Townhall like you, P.

The fact is, you're motivated by fear. The world is not the friendliest place, but intervening doesn't make it friendlier.
America really can leave the world alone, it's not burying our head in the sand. If another nation directly threatens us, like the Berbery Pirates did for example, then we take them out, like Jefferson did. He didn't then invade other nations or build a super embassy in Tripoli. This "war on terror" is an unending war which serves the military industrial complex as Eisenhower warned about. While our country is looted by the Federal Reserve system our young patriots die overseas. If we're supposed to be leaving in 2012 (originally Bush's idea, now Obama's), why are there still American's dying there? What are we holding out for? What will definately be different 3 years from now?

Stop worrying about the Middle East and communists so much P. If the government was really serious about protecting you they would have built a wall along the boarders, not engaging in nation building. It would not have 13 million illegal alien invaders working for corporate farms and rich people needing desiring cheap maids and nannies and other labor (ask Mitt Romney about that).

Robert Location: CA
"Yes, of course you can come up with your 1 in a million scenarios for why it would be necessary, but that is not reality."

Here's some reality for you:

What would you do in this situation?
What if it was your child?

Her three year old son was asleep on the back seat. Whilst she was in the service station a man drove off in her car. ..the service station's closed-circuit TV camera, saw ..(a man) with a blonde-streaked Afro entering her car.

“Don't panic”, a police constable advised the mother, “as soon as he sees your little boy in the back he will abandon the car.”
He did; police later arrested him after a struggle.
“Where did you leave the Hyundai?” Denial instead of dissimulation: “It wasn't me.” — property stolen from the car was found in his pockets.“Its been twenty minutes since you took the car — little tin box like that car — It will heat up like an oven under this sun. Another twenty minutes and the child's dead or brain damaged. Where did you dump the car?” Again: “It wasn't me.”

Threats: “If the child dies I will charge you with Manslaughter!” Sneering, defiant and belligerent, “It wasn't me”...a body-punch elicited a roar of pain, but he fought back until he lapsed into semi-consciousness under a rain of blows...now, kneeling on hands and knees in his own urine, in pain he had never known, he finally realised the beating would go on until he told the police where he had abandoned the child and the car.

..the location of the stolen vehicle and the infant inside it was portrayed as having been volunteered by the defendant.When found, the stolen child was dehydrated, too weak to cry; there were ice packs and dehydration in the casualty ward but no long-time prognosis on brain damage.

(Case Study provided by John Blackler, a former New South Wales police officer.)

Remember,another twenty minutes and the child's dead or brain damaged.
The sun is frightfully hot.

USMC Lt
So true.

I missed most of your fun, but Rainbow Ranger,no doubt fell for it.

My compliments on a job well done. No wonder he is so afraid of you, Anne, RG and others, the wet spots he makes, practically drip off the pages when all of you post.


SFA1973 and Anderson659,
I'm not the least bit concerned with anything Wobbie has to say about myself or my dad.
Sure dad and I, and several others, invented the story of the "investigation" of Wobbie that we were conducting.

The beauty of it is that it worked. And it was hilarious because it scared the Wobbie(sh!t)out of him.
That's why he's so pis*sed about it. Though he'll lie and say he isn't/wasn't. But then he lies about everything so it wouldn't be any different from any of his other posts.

WE ALL KNOW who the REAL fake is here. The real fake is the one who, when asked to post some proof of ANY of his claims, POSTED ONLY EXCUSES as to why he "couldn't" post proof that he was telling the truth.

RIGHT WOBBIE???????

Would Jesus Torture?
I honestly can't believe any true Christian could believe that Jesus would torture. Have you guys read the bible?

Yes, of course you can come up with your 1 in a million scenarios for why it would be necessary, but that is not reality.

I don't care at all about the supposed terrorist we may torture. But I worry alot about America and the direction we are headed.

The Temple of Congress
Sounds like a Jesus I could like. We need him to go to the Temple of Congress and whip a few of the Charlatans who have turned it into the worlds biggest wholesaler of lies.

I am assuming of course that he would take a disciple or two to carry the extra whips he'd need. Those things do wear out after a while.

Rainbow Ranger 29
Is a military impostor, a same sex activist, he is absolutely petrified of Anne, and anyone he calle a fake you can bet is real.

Here is an example from another thread:

Anne, Rainbow Ranger
Refuses to answer your requests for posts. Gee, I wonder why,,,,

Rainbow Ranger:

Reason why Ranbow Ranger
Is who he is, well at least one part anyway:

Richard P. Fitzgibbons, MD, Director of Comprehensive Counseling Services at a private psychiatric practice, wrote in a Jan. 24, 1997 letter to the Washington Times:

"There is substantial evidence based on years of clinical experience that homosexuality is a developmental disorder.

Every child has a healthy need to identify positively with the parent of the same sex, have same-sex friendships, a positive body image and a confident sexual identity. Homosexual feelings can occur when these needs are not met appropriately.

The adolescent's unmet needs become entangled with emerging sexual feelings and produce same-sex attraction

So Rainbow Ranger, when you married your husband from the "flattop" he was on, is that why YOU were kicked out, for violating the Don't ask, Don't Tell policy ?? Or was it mental health reasons? I forgot


Ranger'sIQ's-29
The fake everything is here.

Ranger'sIQ's-29
The fake everything is here.

Who Would Jesus Troture?
anyone and everyone who regularly uses this website and has to endure the never ending arrogance and stupidity of Wobbie the Wetard.

talent scout....joel...giles
TALENT- GOOD POSTS!I had to laugh when you said to matter of fact " if they shot you..."!

Joel- sooo the PEACH/GA. tells you there is only two choices. Should she read the Bible
and go to 1 Cor.15:40-42? Smile.Good analysis
of individual/gvmnt.

Giles-- not bad at all I had to chuckle at your comments but your pretty close to bulls-eye!
Christ was no wimp!
Elvis

Brother Doug Jones
To you and I, the idea of 'torture' hangs heavy in our souls. You being a Christian, I would like to simply like to leave with thought from Romans,

"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those who resist bring will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want unafraid of the authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same. For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; For he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also conscience' sake ... fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
Romans 6:1-5, 7 I Hope this helps to clear things up

You're wrong, "Matter of Fact"
"Dag, you may think that people like me are appalled by your adoration of the person who murdered Tiller, but the fact is, I know you are speaking for every conservative on this thread. That's why no one has challenged you."

Dag speaks for Dag, no one else. Although there's many who would agree with his happiness and sentiment that "A baby killer is dead."

I challenge ANYONE, from either side who's happy that Tiller was murdered. I'm glad there's one less murderer of unborn babies in the world, but I'd much rather have seen him brought to justice by the court system and sent to prison to rot for the rest of his miserable life.

Now Tiller will have to answer to God for what he's done, and I'm sure he'll get NO MERCY when held to account for all of God's most innocent that he murdered in cold blood.

Dag
"Great news !
One for the good guys ! A baby killer is dead. Congratulations to the "reform" luthern church for harboring a mass murderer.
-
Excellent news, there is a backbone yet in the USA"

-------Dag, you may think that people like me are appalled by your adoration of the person who murdered Tiller, but the fact is, I know you are speaking for every conservative on this thread. That's why no one has challenged you.

Every time someone like you speaks up more and more about the true nature of TH conservatives is laid bare.

Jesus Loves Us
That is the reason he lets us make fools of ourselves. Then we return to Him. I have nothing but my FAITH In Jesus. I was born with nothing,I will leave with nothing. May God's hands reach you and bless you. AMEN

Alive in him to me
"OK, name names, then, since you're willing to 'guess'? Are ya chicken, or something? Who in particular, here or elsewhere, do you anticipate celebrating the cold-blooded murder of a human being, even one as evil as Tiller?"

(This was in response to my comment that conservatives finally have something to celebrate"

Come on! Enquiring minds want to know!

Waiting...


OK, Alive, here's just a couple from this thread - for more you'll have to plug into any other thread on TH



Come on! Enquiring minds want to know!

Waiting...


"GOOD RIDDANCE AND R.I.P. TILLER THE BABY KILLER!

One for the good guys ! A baby killer is dead. Congratulations to the "reform" luthern church for harboring a mass murderer."
-Dag

"GOOD JOB !
I am pleased."

Satisfied, Alive in HIm? This incident will sink the conservative movement even further, the one good thing to come of it.

ROFL
Yes, today's modern day Jesus doesn't use a whip to drive out the money changers, he uses a bullet to drive out the baby murderer.
GOOD JOB !
I am pleased.

Great news !
One for the good guys ! A baby killer is dead. Congratulations to the "reform" luthern church for harboring a mass murderer.
-
Excellent news, there is a backbone yet in the USA.

Jesus' Likes/Dislikes
Jesus likes torture, guns, pickup trucks, country music, America, wealthy evangelists, conspicuous consumption and the Dallas Cowboys.

He hates condoms, premarital sex, gays, marijuana, rock music, topless sunbathing, polygamy, welfare recipients, Volvos, abortion and liberals.

Although there isn't anything Jesus actually SAID to support any of this, just "reading between the lines." In other words, Christians are projecting their own values on Him.

By the way, isn't it a little absurd that the GOP has both the abortion crazies AND the NRA? You've got right-to-life and right-to-kill in the same party! It's not a big tent, it's a long and twisted tent.


Chuckles Galore
thx Doogie

Jim
You are taking scriptures out of context with the point Doug Giles is writing about.

This is about the US Government protecting this nation.

You are quoting scriptures that address personal attitudes.

Big difference and are not any part of the subject of this thread

WWJD?
He'd dunk Doug Giles ASAP. After he cast him out of the church and into the street!!!

Great article.
Beautiful Mr. Giles. I am a Christian also. If a stranger broke into my home and was going to rape my children and slit their throats, and I had the means to stop it, but decided to turn the other cheek, that would be worse than what the strangers did. There is evil in the world. We are to fight against evil, not give it a pass. What if no one had done anything against Hitler, should we have turned the other cheek on that too? There is a time for War and a time for Peace, according to the Bible, also. Jesus could have turned the other cheek also with the money changers, He didn't. It's called Righteous Anger. And I am pretty sure that if Obama's lovely precious daughters were kidnapped, that he would say "do whatever the hell it takes to get my girls back." Sometimes it really burns me that there are people that talk about waterboarding being so bad, but some of the same think aborting and scalding an unborn baby to death is ok. The world is turned upside down. Thanks again.

Doing my duty
I have decided to take the lesson to the public swimming pools across America in a sort of poll testing.
I go into the public pool on the hot sunny days so there's a lot of loungers gabbing, and I wait till some liberal shrieks hatred about Bush or Cheney, and when they hit the water I get in there and DUNK em under.
Then I wait for the libs to start screaming that I'm a torturer but it never happens because they're to busy screaming at their own little johnnies and susies to stop doing the same thing.
Oh well, it's not the same out here as it is in washington dc, I guess they don't get out much, and wouldn't be caught dead in or around "the people's pool".

all is good
A great article by Mr. Giles as usual. Yep, terroists do not deserve to live, so a little water is ok with me. They should water 'em then waste 'em. Also, good riddance to satan lovin' tiller the abortionist. He now is in Hell for eternity after the truth edict was given to him according to his "works". tiller sent himself to hell with his evilness.
"Viva Christo Rey"!!!!!

Anyway, Doug Giles: keep up the great writing!!!!!!!!!!

What Else Does The Bible Say?
WWJT: Doug, you really need to read your Bible!

Romans 12:14: Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.

Romans 12:17-21: Do not repay anyone evil for evil… live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. On the contrary: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink…” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Matthew 26:52: “Put your sword back in its place… for all who take the sword will die by the sword.”

Revelation 13:9-10: He who has an ear, let him hear… He who kills with the sword will be killed with the sword. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.

1 Thessalonians 5:9: God did not appoint us to wrath…

1 Thessalonians 5:15: Make sure that no one back evil for evil, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all.

James 1:20: The wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God.

1 Peter 3:9-11: Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing …turn from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it…

matter of no facts
OK, name names, then, since you're willing to 'guess'? Are ya chicken, or something? Who in particular, here or elsewhere, do you anticipate celebrating the cold-blooded murder of a human being, even one as evil as Tiller?

Come on! Enquiring minds want to know!

Waiting...


matter of fact
Now if you had been shot instead of Tiller, ok, I see your point

You forgot
Think not that I have come to bring peace. I have come to bring the sword.

Matthew.

What would Jesus do?
Doug,

Your comments could be easier digested without the cute little words and phrases.

Your message is a good one and I agree. Lose the "cute" stuff.

This is the sort of idiots
That show the left as real morons.
Genuine, authentic idiots, first class imbeciles.
=======================


anderson -359
'I see that someone shot and killed late term abortion doctor Tiller of Kansas this morning."



matter of fact replied: - 4:20 PM EST
yeah - you all have alot to celebrate today.
=======================

Conservatives condemn such depraved actions as murder you moron.

Only idiots like you look over murder depending on who is the killer.

Not conservatives.

You moron

Mormons
Sure is an inordinate number of Mormon posters here relative to the population at large.

Why is that?

Don't flame me brothers and sisters, I'm a descendant of Joseph's grandfather and just got back from choir practice...just wondering, not complaining.

6 one way
Half a dozen another




re: talent scout
"A fanatic filled with hate and anger, or just insane one".

Vampire's Reflection - 4:12 PM EST asks:
Both. Why can't I be both

=======================

A fanatic filled with hate and anger, or just insane one.

A fanatic filled with hate an anger is insane.

Describing your emotional being is summed up as insane.

You are not very smart either way

anderson -359
'I see that someone shot and killed late term abortion doctor Tiller of Kansas this morning."

yeah - you all have alot to celebrate today.

re: talent scout
"A fanatic filled with hate and anger, or just insane one".

Both. Why can't I be both. Although since you brought up "fanatic" I'm torn between so many choices: socialist, communist, atheist and Muslim. I mean, I could be both a socialist and a communist, but it is hard to be both a fanatical atheist and Muslim at the same time.

Given we are adjective shopping, I'll take one fanatic atheist, one each of fanatic communist and socialist, and both insane and full of hate.

Cool. You know, there is nothing in psychology which prohibits insanity and hate being ascribed to the same person. So just have fun! Just use hate filled, insane! No reason for making a choice! Wooo hooo!

And you have to admit your question is kinda fun. Asking an insane person for a rational evaluation of themselves, is well, fun!


HYSTERICAL take on torture!
http://theblacksphere.blogspot.com/2009/05/obamas-torture-c onundrum.html If you have time, check out this blogger's take on torture! You will laugh for sure!

get a true confession
first of all, i think doug is right. i heard a minister answer a question about baptism this way, which i think can be applied to this issue.
he was asked how you correctly do baptism. his response was "or do you just hold them under until they really repent(confess?)

Tammy/Vampire
When you start bloviating on the horrors of what you refer to as 'torture' otherwise known as waterboarding you'd better be prepared to 'splain' the fact that you have no problem with the REAL TORTURE going on in this country.
Torture that's escalated from dismemberment in utero to exposure to those who survive induced labor abortion with partial birth in between the two "rights'. Do you deny that abortion is
an extreme form of torture and execution of the least among us, the ones JESUS warned about anyone harming His little ones it would be better to have a millstone tied around their necks. I would say that is a allusion to then
dropping into the SEa of Galilee..a rather strong type of waterboarding.
Speaking of that, anyone hear the news that Cat Sebilious's best bud and contributer, Tiller the Killer was killed today. Seems he was a
member of one of the apostate churches that doesn't think killing babies is all that much of a big deal. As Jesus said, "What does it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his own soul." And NOTE to trolls, I am NOT celebrating his demise, just commenting on it, I think it was stupid for the murderer to put himself in the same category as Tiller, better that God take care of Tiller in HIS good time. Now that murderer has give fodder to the rest of the torture/execution crowd so slander
pro lifers.


WWJD about abortion murder
I forgot to add the morons screaming torture are the same morons who approve real torture.. That being stabbing an infant at the base of its brain for trying to be born...This torture has no comparison..
And as I think about WWJD about abortion.. I guess he would send us an evil messiah who calls good evil and evil good and we would all follow him to hell...At least the morons will..
Vengence is mine saith the Lord..

Speaking of Torture
I see that someone shot and killed late term abortion doctor Tiller of Kansas this morning.

WWJD??
WWJD about torture... Well first he would define what torture really is...Gitmo torture is no more than child's play in conmparision to what muslims do to their enemies, freinds and families..
And then I would remember God is love and I would evaluate on the basis of love..
If my children were being held hostage by a monster what would I do.. You really don't want to know what a harmless gentle old lady would do...to save her loved ones...

Vampire's Reflection
Your imagination is hard at work.

I cannot hate anyone I do not even know.
I can hate to waste my time reading any of your comments here.

I am just curious what drives people like you to hate conservative politics to come every day and fight with empty words?

Just curious if you are insane or just naturally a hateful person.

I judge by my own standards of course, just as we all do.

I do not and will not go to some political forum filled with "liberals" or athiests to fight with them.
Knowing I would have to work up a lot of hate and anger to do that leaves me seeing you for what you show yourself to be here every day.
A fanatic filled with hate and anger, or just insane one


Hey gag
wanda gag

Reading anything you say is torture.

Its illegal for you to comment and unAmerican.

Torture is illegal, the question was is the water boarding done to 3 equal illegal torture.

The Justice Department said no.
The CIA said no
Only America's enemies say yes.

But just to say torture is illegal says nothing.
School kids call home work and taking out the trash torture.

Hearing the voice of the obama is extreme torture, for my ears.
I cannot stand his lying voice

re: talent scout
"You are either insane or just full of hate one ."

Thanks for setting this one up for me. I knew you really liked me deep down inside.

You mean I have to choose? Can't I be both, pretty please?

Don't forget "baby killer" since I'm pro-choice.

That makes me an insane, full of hate, baby killer!

Oh, and bigot. Don't forget bigot. I'm a bigot with regards to the set of people who represent the willing ignorant and the religious.

That makes me a bigoted, insane, full of hate, baby killer.

Oh, and HOW can possibly forget the favorite hate word on this site, Liberal!

That makes me a liberal, bigoted, insane, full of hate, baby killer.

Oh, and dang it, I forgot unpatriotic.

Try again,

That makes me an unpatriotic, liberal, bigoted, insane, full of hate, baby killer.

Whew!



Not The Spanish Inquisition Again!
How lame is an attack on the church that relies on the Spanish Inquisition? In four hundred years it killed less people than the upstanding secularists Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot or Hitler killed in a slow month. Also, most people here are not of Spanish descent or Catholic, so it's kind of a wipe. I'm descended from Jews, Mennonites, and a handful of Lutherans myself. So watch it. I'm liable to force to to not eat bacon, drive a buggy, and sing "Ein Feste Burg" until you recant.

Who would Petraeus Torture?
Some may argue that we would be more effective if we sanctioned torture or other expedient methods to obtain information from the enemy. They would be wrong. Beyond the basic fact that such actions are illegal, history shows us that they also are frequently neither useful nor necessary.

General David Howell Petraeus
May 2007

Common Ground?
Common Ground?
With respect to morals, there is no "common ground"; you are either on the morally correct side or you are not on the morally correct side.
The current "torture" issue is not a debate about the morality of torture. Every moral person knows that torture is intrinsically evil and morally wrong.
The current torture discussion was raised by the Obama administration not because they care particularly about the morality of torture but because they want to characterize the Bush administration as an evil one.
Almost every administration has used methods that were not moral in order to protect the security of the United States of America. As an example, during World War II many citizens and legal aliens of German, Japanese, and Italian ethnicity were detained and had their property, like boats and two–way radios, seized, without normal legal proceedings.
After World War II, my mother who lived in the United States since 1905, when she was three years old, was called to the INS office to explain why she had not become a citizen. (She eventually became a citizen.) My father had been a citizen since 1920, and my brother had served honorably in the US Navy during the war.
So, evil times breed evil in response to evil.

Love instead of torture wins converts?
(Vampire's Rf) you are right that love can point
people to Jesue who opens the heart & saves
us sinners but this has nothing to do with torture from people that are evil & will cut your head off for being a christian. Try love when someone sticks a gun in you face.
And JOEL, God does not send people to hell, they make the choice for themselves and their children until they are of age. We have only two choices: Hell Or Heaven. We get to make the choice. What will yours be?
Wheather you believe this or not doesn't mean it is not the truth.

Thousands of terrorists are probably in
Hell right now. They would LOVE to be waterboarded.

I wonder what the trolls will call this?
These self rightous hypocrite trolls never comment on anything other than a "I hate the USA stance". Here is how Saudi Arabia deals with a murderer and a homosexual:

May 30, 2009 12:19 PM
Comments on this story (8)
The Associated Press

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia – Saudi authorities beheaded and crucified a man convicted of brutally slaying an 11-year-old boy and his father, the Interior Ministry announced.

According to the statement issued by the ministry Friday, shop owner Ahmed al-Anzi molested the boy and then strangled him with a length of rope. He then stabbed the boy's father to death when the man came looking for his son.

He hid both the bodies in his shop, the statement said, adding that al-Anzi threatened police with a knife when they came to arrest him.

Al-Anzi had previously been convicted of sodomy and owning pornographic films, a crime in conservative Saudi Arabia.

Crucifying the headless body in a public place is a way to set an example, according to the kingdom's strict interpretation of Islam. Normally those convicted of rape, murder and drug trafficking in Saudi Arabia are just beheaded


Not a peep from the trolls. They seem to be fine with these people and their customs. However saving American lives from Islamic terrorists is a no-no.

So where did todays terrorists
Come from?

Check out the Carter Admin and Zbigniew Brzezinski
How Jimmy Carter and I Started the Mujahideen

Interview of Zbigniew Brzezinski Le Nouvel Observateur (France), Jan 15-21, 1998, p. 76*

Q: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise: Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

http://www.counterpunch.org/brzezinski.html

If you do not like that link, here is another with the same story.

The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan
Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski,
President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BRZ110A.html

Jesus should take over interrogation...
...Jesus wasn't a wimpy, tree hugger, He was tough and was interested getting to the truth...

False moralizing by people who don't even believe in Jesus leaves a lot to be desired. Those who don't believe in splashing water on a terrorists face to save millions of lives are the same people who are cool with 50 million babies being killed by salt poisoning abortion...These people are hypocrites and their rabid hypocrisy may very well cost us millions of American lives until someone realizes how dangerous they are.

http://jeannie-ology.com/?p=1665

Yeah, right.
As if the trolls really care about those who were waterboarded.

matter of fact writes:
12:12 PM EST
Giles
"...asked me the other day how I could, as a believer, be cool with waterboarding"

What else would anyone expect? Christianity and torture have a long and intimate history.
=======================

The USA has about 240 million people who identify themselves as Christian.

If Christians were what you falsely accuse, we would have you being tortured today

P writes:
Modern technology does not allow for a 'bury my head in the sand' mentality.
======================

Neither did ancient ignorance.

One can mind their own business in life and never bury his head in sand or cement.

I have neighbors who appreciate me minding my own business.

To imagine its burial of the head to not be a busy body in everyone else's affairs is misreading the right attitude this nation developed from the beginning and has lost to arrogant money hungry nation builders.

America is being used for globalists and you need to get your own head out of the sand if you do not see this as it is.

OogyWoogy
"The only thing that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

Modern technology does not allow for a 'bury my head in the sand' mentality. Look at teh example of great powers who have done this throughout history- China, for instance. For centuries, they had formidable geographical barriers that successfully kept them isolated from most outised powers, that is until the late 1700-1800s when modern shipping made said barriers meaningless. Communists, Islamists, and others always have their grand visions of utopia only after the entire world has been subjugated to them. Do you think they'll just go away? What if they conquer the rest of the world, and not us? How long can we survive? I'd rather fight a war in their backyard, than do it in ours.

One of the first places the Marines went into was Tripoli, in response to the predations of Barbary (read: Muslim) pirates on American shipping. Even then, it was Islam's stated goal to rule the world. Everyone remembers the Crusades, but who remembers what preceded them? Muslim conquest of formerly 'Christian' lands. In case you think 9/11 was an accident, the Battle of Vienna, which decisively ended the last serious Muslim attempt at conquest of Europe was fought on... you guessed it, 9/11-9/12, 1683.

Anyone who's willing to kill innocents to achieve their objectives is someone who is unwilling to reason or stop, and needs to be dealt with appropriately.

OogyWoogy
I agree
Ron Paul has an in depth explanation that is solid thinking about our entangling alliances and nation building.

Both subjects are anti American.

Not up to this country to run the worlds business and feed out young for war mongering nation building Trostskyites

Ranger 29
Common ground? you're right- on infanticide, whether before or after birth, there can be no 'common ground.' I believe that life is life, even in the case of rape and incest. Appeals to emotion here do not arguments make; besides, there are instances of some women even raising beautiful children out of these tragedies.

Logic? let's stick to the abortion issue. Liberals are the first to save unborn animal life (sea turtle eggs, pregnant whales, etc) yet let a defenseless baby's skull be crushed and its brains sucked out with a vacuum hose to make its removal easier. Or how about supporting maternity leave, when the woman wants the 'baby' but when she doesn't it's a 'fetus' and suddenly disposable?

By 'swift boating', you mean telling the truth? By Obama being a citizen, why hasn't he satisfactorily answered those allegations? Maybe because it's easier to characterize the other side as 'crazy right-wing fanatics' rather than answer a question that any bona fide citizen could easily put to rest?

If God is who He says He is, then He created logic, and your very capacity from reasoning is a gift from Him. Identifying something so basic as protecting the lives of unborn children as 'God's position' is neither illogical nor precludes that view from the debate. I could just as easily ask you to prove God doesn't exist, or what standard for morality other than your own superiority you would use to judge what is right or wrong.

So, let's drop the condescenscion and arrogance here, and have a real discussion.

Ranger29
I did not need any explanation from you.

I already know you are a nut case.

A fanatic and an extremist

Joel
I support Ron Paul not just up until he said we bought 9/11 on ourselves, but I whole heartedly agree with that statement. We did bring 9/11 on ourselves due to our interventionism in the Middle East. If we left these people alone they probably wouldn't have attacked us, but instead we meddled with their affairs for years. We armed the Taliban to fight the Soviets, and then the Taliban enslaved their own people with our weapons. We armed Saddam Hussein to defeat Iran, and he used biological weapons on the Kurds in an act of genocide and invaded Kuwait, with our weapons, and raped and pillaged his way through the country, with our weapons. No wonder the people there often hate us.

Now, whose fault was 9/11? The terrorists, they chose to commit murder. Dr. Paul understands this completely. He and his son Rand Paul who is running for U.S Senate in Kentucky would have voted in favor of the War in Afghanistan but wouldn't have engaged in the nation building that ensued. We're building "Embassies" in the Middle East now which are really more like giant military bases. It's imperialism and it's bankrupting the nation and it's NOT keeping is safe, it is NOT in our best interest.

Interventionists like Joel are really imperialists who want an American Empire. Empire destroys ALL great nations. We were born out of a rebellion from the British EMPIRE. It is time to bring all the troops home and cut our entangling alliances which would lead us into war. An imperial foreign policy is the greatest conduit for tyranny at home, as liberties are taken from us to "protect us." Conservatives need to realize that you can't have a small domestic government and large government abroad.

War mongering and empire building for for the liberals, such as Woodrow Wilson and FDR.

Jesus was tortured

Jesus was tortured on the cross, to create the way for all of us believers to go to Heaven when we die.

That Heaven and the way to get their is described only in the Bible. If you don’t believe that, or follow the directions, don’t even mention a possibility of you going to Heaven.

What happens to you is your own fault, but don’t complain you are not going to Heaven if you don’t follow the directions presented in the only place that tells how to do it.

In fact,
This is pretty much the same rationale used to torture adherents of Martin Luther, Catharism, Catholicism, Semitism, and those who practiced medicine with herbs.

In fact
Polls show that the biggest majority of torture lovers also identify themselves as church-going Christians.

Giles
"...asked me the other day how I could, as a believer, be cool with waterboarding"

What else would anyone expect? Christianity and torture have a long and intimate history.

torture
We are a land of freedom and due process. We do not do the unspeakable to sentient beings. And those that do? We war with them.

War and being a Christian
In the old testment, even those who were men and women of God had to face war at times. But in most instances, they sought God's will and how he wanted them to handle it. Whether they should even go to war or not and if so, how to do it. I think if most countries had leaders like that now, this would be a mute question. Though I realize that there will always be those who choose not to accept the Bible as God's word and would be critical of anyone who does. But I do have a question for those who call themselves liberals. How can you be so irate over doing something so minor to someone who is out to kill everyone they can and in the same breath approve of all the other things that you approve of........like killing millions of innocent babies every year and thinking it is okay to flood the television and movies with all kinds of immorality that will influence the young. And don't even try to tell me it doesn't........because it does. There are a lot of wrongs and ills in this world and it is not getting better. It is getting worse. And maybe not every Christian understands and follows God's word as they should, but that doesn't excuse your completely rejecting it yourself. Every person will have to answer to God for what we say and do......not for someone else. So look to your own back yard and start worrying about the log in your eye, because whether you believe it or not, you will have to answer for it.

I could be wrong
About posters like 29, vampire, lilly, tammy and a few others.

I just do not know of any other emotion, reason any of them would show up here day after day to fight with articles and posters.

Every subject known to man has been discussed here and all we see is the same old accusations day in and day out.

What else but hate would cause these people to be here every day with their posts full of accusations?

Nothing else exists but hate that would cause such devotion as they give themselves over to in coming to attack posters and authors.

Never reaching for any common ground or decent conversation, just sneering silly accusations.
And nothing is immune for their twisted use of history or deeds to turn it into an attack on people they do not know.

That is perverted and you people are its children.

Otherwise explain your fanatic presence here every day to attack people.

Insanity is the only other inspiration I know of.

You are either insane or just full of hate one

TAMMY
Torture is wrong, terribly wrong under any conditions and for any reason until it's used to save your life from the living hell of sadistic jihadists. Then it's suddenly a morally good thing. Then the criminal torturer becomes a patriot doing his moral duty. If I used torture on a murdering terrorsist to save your life you would thank me for it.

Matthew 5
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the land...
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy....
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God...
You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, 'You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.'
But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment...
You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you...

Spanish Inquisition
[Editor's Note: all due and humble respect to Monty Python and Mel Brooks]

Bring back the Inquisition!

Hey, not only did a Cardinal use torture to get information, he used torture to separate heathens from the saved.

No disrespect to Doug here, but I'm sure the Spanish Cardinal had much better researched Biblical passages for using torture to not only get information, but to convert the heathens!

Bring back the inquisition! (Oh! No! Not the Spanish Inquisition!)

Just think, you all could use the Iron Maiden on your favorite liberal!

Bring back the inquisition! (The inquisition! The inquisition!)

Personally I think we need a new wedge issue! Waterboarding at home and abroad! We should demand every conservative politician state his or her position on using waterboarding in criminal investigations at home! If they oppose! off with their heads! after a whipping!

Bring back the inquisition!

"The Inquisition, what a show.
The Inquisition, here we go.
We know you're wishin' that we'd go away!
So all you Muslims and you Jews
We got big news for all of yous:
You'd better change your point of views TODAY!
'Cause the Inquisition's here and it's here to stay!"

When the next album of torture photos
are released to the public, and they will be, I want to see Giles tell us how Jesus would also defend rape and other sexual crimes as a means of dealing with Muslims.

Giles
Who would Jesus torture?

Just be happy that we don't torture for low IQs and cheesy writing skills.

re: talent scout
Was it good for you? Make you feel all, oh, so sanctimonious pleasured? Get your daily sanctimonious fix? Did you light up afterward?

*~wink~*

Yummy

American Citizen
I'm just curious as to why Jesus would stop at the border.

Why not waterboard criminals! Yeah baby! Let's interrogate all suspects, especially homicidal ones.

I mean, after all, does Hey Zeus really care if you are an American citizen or not in his authority to torture you?

Think of all the innocent lives we could save if we waterboarded serial killer suspects!

Even better, we could torture with waterboarding every single person on death row! Yes, they will tell the truth for sure if we torture them good about their guilt! And think about it! If they are innocent then we wouldn't be killing any innocent people!

Yes! Let's waterboard all death row inmates at least 183 times to be d**n sure their confession, innocent or guilty, is the REAL truth.

Nothing like 100 percent reliable torture to get at the truth!

It takes perversion
For a person to come on a certain forum just to offer insults at people they disagree with over politics or religion.

Only a person who is full of hatred can come here to do that.

Take lilly, Tammy, Vampire and such posters for an example.

Driven with frenzy like hate to show up on TH every day to fight and insult posters.

They have zero courtesy or civility and only snarling, mocking and sneers at people.

Horrible little minded perverts is what they really are, all perverted by hate.

I do not know of a single conservative who goes to a board that supports their views and mocks or insults the posters.

Only the demented perverts of the left do this and are the offenders they accuse everyone else of being.

Their minds are degenerate from their hate and really are perverts.

No sane person would show up on a forum he disagrees with the articles just to spew out insults and personal attacks as these demented people like lilly, Hal, IQ29, vampire, tammy and others do.

Real perverts and degenerates without redemption for their hate.



re: midfielder & Fred
Wow, I don't normally reply to responses, but this is so much fun.

Question to midfieler: Do my offenses rise to the level of torture?

Fred stated that torture is what God does to liberals, or in the ultimate S&M, they torture themselves. So if let's just say I'm such a liberal being tortured by either myself or God, what kind of response would one expect from such tortured liberal soul? A non-offensive, rational response or an emotional tortured response? If somebody is giving rational, reasonable responses under torture, doesn't that kinda go against the notion that torture always brings out the truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me, the tortured person, God? Think about it. If liberals are tortured, wouldn't they be telling the truth all the time rather than lying?

It is a challenge keeping up with folks. I'm going to have to get out some torture gear right now as it seems I've been remiss.

Who Would Jesus Torture?
For those who believe that irrigation of the nostril's is torture, you should try it with salt-water to clear the sinus cavities...it is a great cure. So perhaps, we should all try it and then the discussion would not exist.

I commend Doug Giles for his writing and I believe that Jesus would enjoy his humor.

Twisted Tammy writes
Talent Scout: You are the vicious pervert.
Nearly everything you write is a perversion.
You are the last person who should be calling
other people names. There isn't a Christian
bone in your body.
=======================

Perverts have an identity.

I imagine you feel very comfortable with any pervert yourself.

So if you do not like me pointing out the perverts like sheik, then I will just assume you are one as well.

He writes nothing but perverted accusations, bout like you Tammy.


How to read posts by Tammy and Vampires
The most efficient way to read a post by Tammy in IL or Vampire's relection (which, by the way, is nothing)
A. Read the name at the top, confirm that it is Tammy in IL or Vampire's reflection.
B. Quickly scan to the bottom of the post and click on the "Flag as offensive" link
C. Go on to the next, hopefully intelligent post.
There now, wasn't that easy?

Anne:
No, dear, there is no connection between
waterboarding or the potential of waterboarding
(or any other kind of torture in an attempt to get to the truth) and Daniel Perl.

Gracie:
"t is a fact that waterboarding saved thousands of lives, perhaps yours or loved ones."

Name one instance in which this happened.

ApolloSpeaks
"Jesus submitted himself to being tortured for a higher spiritual good. If torturing another can save a brother's life I don't see where it would be morally wrong or an unChristian thing to do. "

***
Hmmm. Don't you see that this is exactly how
the Muslims who are militant enough to go to
war for their religion feel. They can resist
because they are in it for a higher spiritual
good.

Did you hear about the guy who withstood all
sorts of torture, but when someone offered
him sugar-free cookies (he was a diabetic) he
started to talk? This was revealed on TV
during the last few days.

Tammy: Umm, YOU brought it up....

"No one said everything works always."

And exactly HOW MANY innocent people do you think should be killed by our enemies while we're waiting for them to get the "love" thing?

"I don't know who Nick Berg is,..."

Berg was a civilian...

"... but Daniel Perl made the unfortunate
mistake of covering a war that didn't need to
happen."

Which had NOTHING to do with ANYTHING... which is pretty typical of ALL YOUR POSTS.


re: Joel
"If God's children misuse the agency given them, and CHOOSE to harm and threaten others, then they have CHOSEN to give themselves over to the Adversary, and are under his hand now, not God's."

So Muslim children, who were never introduced to the word of your God, who were brain-washed from birth to be suicide bombers, CHOOSE to harm and threaten others. They have CHOSEN to give themselves over to the Adversary.

I see. Your God is going to send said children to HELL for all of eternity for said choices. I see. This is JUSTICE to you. Christians, they do leave one who is not a Christian with a sense of longing to be just like them.

Joel-De Oppresso Liber--re readings list
Hey--good to see you're back on the job. I admire the military background and awareness, which I, who have had to learn it all at second and third hand, am unfit to say too much about. But I wanted to mention a few older books on which I have a little first-hand expertise.

What Mark Levin's Liberty and Tyranny is doing for readers now, Barry Goldwater's The Conscience of a Conservative was doing back in the 1960's. It's still a stimulating read, and I've never seen a cogent liberal response to many of the points he made--especially when he dealt with such issues as the usurpation by the federal government of things that could be managed more efficiently and more economically by private charities or by state and local governments. He's very good on the layers of bureaucracy that stand between those who need help and those who are supposed to give it.

And--to go back a few centuries--I'm amazed at the degree to which John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress still speaks to college students today. This allegory of the Christian life, sometimes aided by a little easily obtained commentary, was described by C.S. Lewis as a book that amazed the world.

And speaking of CSL, who you have said you admire, have you read The Abolition of Man? This critique of modern education and its proponents revolutionized my own teaching methods several years after I started in the profession. CSL does a nice job of skewering the sloppy and dishonest thinking that lies behind the propagandizing that passes for education in all too many schools, kindergarten through grad school. I don't have a copy with me at the moment, but I recall this vivid analogy: modern educationists castrate their students and then bid the eunuchs to multiply.

There is much more to say, but my time is up for now.

Waterboard 'em
It is a fact that waterboarding saved thousands of lives, perhaps yours or loved ones.
These murdering scum deserve to be waterboarded and worse. To those who disagree, I hope you or your loved ones will be the ones in imminent danger while the terrorists are being lovingly coaxed into revealing the info that will save lives.

Vampire's Reflection
Stick to Vampires and witches. You are better
at it.

re: Joel
"The Qur’an states that the ENTIRE world MUST be in submission to 'Allah'. Do YOU want to be an Islamic?"

The Bible states that the ENTIRE heaven MUST be in submission to 'God'. Do YOU want to be Christian?

For me, the answer to an ETERNITY in submission to some God, any God, is NO. Throw in the little known fact that heaven will be only occupied by the likes of Christians and viola!, you have defined the Anti-Pascal's Wager atheist.

Boldly going in the after life where no Christian will ever go! Thanks God! Thanks for us from your followers! I just hope and pray that not only does God take all the Christians to heaven, but the Muslims too!

Imagine! No Christians or Muslims in the after life. What joy!


Joel
The Bible says a whole lot of things that we
virtually ignore also. It is full of violence.
It is the reason why I pretty much stick to the
New Testament.

Read Joycey's response of 10:18. That is why
I am also no longer a Fundamentalist
Christian.

Sheik: Whomever you would like to blame for
violence in our country, don't blame Jesus.

Talent Scout: You are the vicious pervert.
Nearly everything you write is a perversion.
You are the last person who should be calling
other people names. There isn't a Christian
bone in your body.

They take everything so literally. Truth to
tell, most sinners bring a wickedness upon
themselves. They get what they deserve.
The Bible says - God brought the wickedness
down upon them. Well yes, if you want to
put it that way. It's sort of like saying -
my crops grew because the rains came. or my
crops grew because God sent the rain. Hmmmm.
They put God's name in there because they didn't know the science yet (which God created).

Anne:
I'd almost like to be around when you try to tell that to Nick Berg's parents, or Daniel Perl's widow."

*****
No one said everything works always. We are talking odds here. I don't know who Nick
Berg is, but Daniel Perl made the unfortunate
mistake of covering a war that didn't need to
happen. He was doing his job, however, and he
was Jewish, and they took the opportunity
to kill him. I don't know where the idea
of torturing to improve things, or get the
right answer, comes into play here.

Or did you decide not to stick to the subject?

Tammy: '... love will always win more

converts than hate, revenge, and fear combined."

Right!

I'd almost like to be around when you try to tell that to Nick Berg's parents, or Daniel Perl's widow.

That would be interesting, I'm sure.


WWJT: Who Would Jesus Torture
Jesus tortures liberals 24/7, or more rightly they torture themselves over the subject of Him.

JESUS WAS TORTURED
Jesus submitted himself to being tortured for a higher spiritual good. If torturing another can save a brother's life I don't see where it would be morally wrong or an unChristian thing to do.

Giles
What Jesus knows and you don't (or chose to
ignore) is that love will always win more
converts than hate, revenge, and fear combined.

Paula
You liberals always amaze me with your uncanny ability to read minds, especially the minds of conservatives.

I find it amusing that people who have never read a Bible or go to Church and who reject Jesus, attempt tell Christians what God, the Father, Jesus, the son and the Holy Spirit think and what they do.

****
I find it amusing the people who think they
are Christians can make blanket statements
about any person or group of people and believe that they are OK with God.

I see that Giles has absolutely no problem with doing something he knows Jesus wouldn't do, but feels he is justified in doing, I
suppose because God gave him an overdose of
testosterone to compensate for his underdose
of Brains or sense of humanity.

Jesus and torture.
You liberals always amaze me with your uncanny ability to read minds, especially the minds of conservatives.

I find it amusing that people who have never read a Bible or go to Church and who reject Jesus, attempt tell Christians what God, the Father, Jesus, the son and the Holy Spirit think and what they do.

Jesus and Waterboarding
Of course it's a stretch to imagine Jesus in the position of Chief Interrogator - just as it's difficult imagining him eating an ice cream cone or driving a car. But that doesn't change the fact that he drove the bad guys out of the temple. And I'm glad George Bush and his advisors chose to protect us from further harm. gene, Longmont, CO

Would Jesus shoot to save a hostage?
I don't recall Jesus targeting the Roman authorities, a most brutal repressive regime, but rather discussing how we should conduct our own lives with regard to God. I don't remember him condemning the Roman governors or military which did far worse than waterboarding.

The "what would Jesus do" argument is so lame. Jesus didn't condemn authorities for having prisons or executing prisoners. Would Jesus shoot an armed robber to save a hostage? How is that different than wateboarding to save lives?

TORTURE
Jesus wouldn't torture anybody,but he does bring judgement!

Joel
Paul and other Libertarians get those ideas in part from Thomas Jefferson stating that we shouldn't involve ourselves in the affairs of other nations but reserve the right to protect ourselves when attacked by others.

But what Paul and other Libertarians can't seem to realize, is that Jefferson held that view at the time of our founding and it made perfect sense back then. Yes, back then when we were a baby nation with no economic or military power and were just another little fish in a big pond, it made perfect sense that we shouldn't involve ourselves in the affairs of others -- lest we get our Richard chopped-off!

Jefferson was simply making a statement about the status of our country at the time -- not a mandate on the future. Libertarians can't seem to understand this.

And didn't Jesus also tell someone...
...to let the dead bury the dead?

I can't remember where it was, but someone was supposed to go somewhere with Jesus, but came and told him that he couldn't go because his father had just died. Jesus replied with something along the lines of: "No, you are to come with me -- let the dead bury the dead."

In our way of thinking, that's about as cruel as it gets. The point of my bringing that up, is to agree with Giles in that Jesus was not this all-caring and all-kind and compassionate figure that alot of religious folks have made him out to be. He was simply our saviour and was - what is. Not some lovable Sesame Street character that wouldn't harm anyone.

But isn't all this "water-boarding" stuff just downright hilarious? We've got people running around yelling and screaming about how our "image" around the world is being tarnished and how our "values" are being trampled on and all such childish sophistry. Meanwhile, I highly suspect that most folks around the world are laughing themselves silly at a nation that is rapidly becoming one of nothing but overgrown children. A bunch of children acting as if the sky is falling because three head-choppers had water poured on them. It's surreal.

Wait....
I seem to recall a scripture passage which would seem to show that even Christ felt strongly regarding those who would harm a child.

"Whoa to those who would harm one of my lttle ones, it would be better that a millstone be tied around his neck and he be thrown into the depths of the sea...."

CHENEY, CHURCHILL & FDR
In his criticism of Obama's national security policies Dick Cheney is being compared to Winston Churchill in his Wilderness Years before the outbreak of World War II. But Cheney who was born on the day of Franklin Roosevelt's 59th birthday, in the year of Pearl Harbor, has a strong Providential tie to that President and was destined to be our 9/11 VP.

Click ApolloSpeaks and read my newly published piece: Dick Cheney, Winston Churchil and FDR: Warnings from an Old Conservative Warrior.

Irrigation for Information...
.
LMAO!

WWJT?
I think it is obvious.

Jesus did not lead a protest against the Roman practice of crucifiction, which by ANY measure is torture.

Instead, he willingly gave himself up to it in order to offer himself as payment for our deserved punishment as haters of God (Sin).

Yep, Jesus knows about torture.

Ironic, isn't it? We Americans that are squeamish at waterboarding are trying to set ourselves up as better than God. 'We are morally superior' and therefore, would never torture anyone? How can we be morally superior to God?

I don't read Giles' columns much, but I have to agree with his observations about Jesus' getting the attention of the moneychangers, etc.

Jesus didn't kill anyone that day in the temple, but he sure got their attention. Death, after all, is our fate if we fail to call upon the Lord and accept his profound gift of eternal life.

That is the ultimate right to choose. Not mandated by God, not enforced at the point of a sword, but a gift of life/love/salvation freely offered if we just say Thank You Lord, I accept your gift for my life.

Separation from HIM is torture indeed.

Candy Store Christianity
Some of you like to pick and choose the sweet parts of the Bible. Some ignore the sour parts that admonish them about their lifestyles.

And Joycey is exactly right about the governments role in our society. Individuals are not to take revenge on a wrong committed against them. It is the government's job to punish.

They'll chop your chock off
Robbie--just keep supporting the Muslims and when there are enough of them in this country, they'll change our laws and you won't have one to insert in unnatural places.

And by the way--torture for the sake of punishment is fine with me, even if it doesn't yield any results.

Is the enemy succeeding?
It is hard to say whether society is declining with talk like this, or if there is some nobility in a few people taking time out of the national torture of the torture debate over 3 waterboarded criminals, to torture themselves
to write about the matter. If the latter, the result is, of course, a botched job.

Too many people just lock their minds onto
torture torture torture, if it might save lives, with a sort of one dimensional emotional hang up usually displayed by supporters of extreme liberal non-issues. Americans don't torture because we have superior values (which remains true in practice because only 3 combatants were waterboarded and waterboarding was the worst thing done.

WWJT? Well, for one thing, punishment was so severe in those days that people were much better behaved. But if there is any mention of torture for information in the Bible anywhere, I don't recall seeing it. To get an enemy to talk or change sides you simply let him live and rewarded him. You made him an offer he can't refuse. I think the idea of torture for information would have been considered sick by all the ancients except the Chinese and such, and would have created some serious vendettas.

The "Torture" Witch Hunt
The "Torture" Witch Hunt -
An obvious attempt by the haters of Pres. Bush, who never will get over their loss of two elections to him, to make his administration appear evil.
Evil is he who implies evil in others.

So now you speak
for the "Right Wing God Squad" Wobbie??

"and most of the right wing god squad including I think you has the same level of understanding of the Bible....all you can do is repeat the words"

My goodness it sure is amazing how many people and groups YOU CLAIM to speak for. In every post you make you claim "The American People (or some such group) say's, or thinks, or votes this way" when you are speaking for ONLY yourself but projecting it as if they agree with you when in reality THEY DON'T.

As for MY understanding of the Bible, YOU don't have the slightest clue how well I understand it.

SO DON'T presume to tell me how well I understand ANYTHING. Epecially a book that I read for two hours everyday, and a subject that I have taught for five years.

Poor Rainbow Ranger29
Posts this:

"This op ed points out the silly
season that the god squaders have"

What else would you expect from a same sex activist homosexual military impostor.

So, Rump Ranger, it just tears you up that God exists, and does not approve of your admitted sexual preference in his word..

There is no God squad, only atheists use that term. Obviously you are not a Christian.

Chili Recipes

Obama has had NUMEROUS conversations with GWB.

I do not think that Obama was calling for chili recipes.

Of course ACTUAL PROOF
That he is completely and irrevocably WRONG about almost everything he has ever said, and says today regarding Cheney, Mohammed Atta, the WMD's, and the attacks that were stopped by the waterboarding of Kahlid Sheik Mohammed has been offered to Wobbie the Delusional more times than any of us here can count.

BUT, like a typical America hating Liberal who has an obsessive hatred of/for President Bush and Vice President Cheney, Wobbie ignores that proof and just keeps doggedly repeating his talking points hoping some fool will be stupid enough to believe him. Sadly some here HAVE been that stupid. Right Will? Right Mario?

And now he's telling us what the meaning of passages from the Bible are? ROFLMMFAO!!!

Wobbie, I TEACH Bible Doctrine classes for my church EVERY SUNDAY, and I've been doing this for FIVE YEARS. I KNOW EVERY PASSAGE IN EVERY CHAPTER OF THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS BY HEART, AS WELL AS WHAT THEY MEAN.

YOU COULDN'T POSSIBLY BE MORE WRONG IN YOUR ARROGANT INTERPRETATION OF REVELATIONS OR PAUL.

YOU KNOW THE BIBLE AS WELL AS YOU KNOW NAVAL WEAPONS AND WEAPONS SYSTEMS.

NOT AT ALL!!

Still no takers for challenge
Still waiting for someone from the "thou-shall-not-waterboard" crowd to set forth the moral standard whereby its immoral to waterboard a terrorist for a few seconds to save thousands of innocent lives but moral to bomb innocent women and children who happen to be in the vicinity of a possible terrorist location.

Any takers? You'd be the first to take up the challenge since I started issuing it a few weeks ago.

couldnt say it better
I must agree with this article even though my sides are hurting from laughter. As another Christian redneck there is no doubt in my mind that the serious points made should be shouted from the rooftops until every liberal in America has to start popping Xanex like a kid with halloween candy.Since I am considering a run for office in the next election cycle with your gracious permission I would love to paraphrase this article as part of my stump speech. However I feel the need to add one correction, When I saw our president's forehead scrapping the carpet in front of the king of Saudi Arabia I felt an overwhelming urge to catch the next flight to Saudi land and plant my size 11 boot in his presidential a#& right in front of the same king he bowed to so both Obama and this king of oil wells and sand dunes would know that "WE THE PEOPLE" are getting fed up with the culture of death that both men seem only too happy to ram down our throats.

Sam Allen
I guess you better work on reestablishing the United States as a British colony. I guess William Wallace and George Washington are terrible men to you too. That Bible verse refers to good governments. We should never submit to evil even if our government imposes it. When a government becomes tyrannical it is our duty to abolish it or reform it.

Furthermore, this is a democratically elected Republic. The politicians work for us, if the US military tortures with politician's consent, it is with the consent of those who are to represent us, not a king or a lord.

Sheik
Your 2nd post had good points, but there was no need to insult white people in your first one. That's not cool man.

Jesus would not torture, and torture is wrong. Fear leads men to that which is immoral, and fear is what is leading conservatives to defend torture.

"Terrorism is the best political weapon
for nothing drives people harder
than a fear of sudden death." - Adolf Hitler

Fear of sudden death is leading Republicans to condone torture. Defending torture is insanity. There's no need for it, it's not effective, it ruins our image and rightfully so, and all the torturers and torture enablers should be prosecuted. This means Bush and Cheney as well as Pelosi and Reid, and even Obama who has NOT ended the renditions.

Ron Paul 2012

RANGER
Man you are smart,but I wonder what version you are reading? I must have missed something.

By the way Sheik
Although I am almost exclusively European in descent, I am neither white nor blond headed. In fact, I look like an Arab, and I have never conceived of Jesus as a white European.

Sheik -- really seriously?
Rom 13:1-5
13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.
NIV

As a Christian, I believe that individuals who have the responsibility in government have a God-given responsibility to use force when necessary. Whether that includes waterboarding I cannot say, but it might.

Also, I am so sick of hearing Abu Grab compared to Guantanamo. What happened at Abu Grab was abuse plan and simple. It was not any form of interrogation, it was criminal behavior done for the enjoyment of a few people who could not handle their responsibility.

Waterboarding three known terrorist at Guantanamo to get information that might save many lives is not even close to the same moral issue.

SODOM AND GOMORAH
HMMMM I WONDER?

What a pervert you are
Sheik writes- 11:28 PM EST
Jesus wouldn't, he's not white!
Only white people believe in kicking a guy when he is down. Then hiding behind 'national security'. I think when the Abu Grab rapists were found out, they said 'we were keeping america safe'.
=======================

What a scumbag you are, and need water boarded.

No doubt you are part of some terrorist organization yourself.
The most cowardly of all men who murder people who are the least among us.

Innocent unsuspecting civilains and once captured keep them tied until they gather the courage to cut their necks from the rear.

You sound just like one of the cowards yourself, pervert

unbelief
this is what may get you in hot water!

Joycey - seriously?
The government does not declare war, congress does. Congress is made up of people. Each person votes yes or not. This means they are each responsible for the collective decision made. God will judge individuals. True believers would know that our government is NOT A THEOCRACY like the ones described in the bible. When God asked David to go to war, it was because God had annointed David to be King to executive HIS purposes.

The USA is not a theocracy and can not be compared to the wars described in the bible. The western civilization has destroyed and killed many people in ALL continents in the name of God. Yet God never asked them to do so.

As sure as the sun rises, the western civilization will be destroyed in another 2 decades. The lies and destruction this civilization has caused is what will usher in the ONE WORLD ORDER.......because men and women (mainly westerners) will have depraved minds i.e .torturing others, abortion, etc

And no, God is not american, blue eyed blonde or a westerner.

Beneath the raucous banter--
some serious points are made here, and the most serious of all may be that we need to cultivate a sense of proportion. It may not be especially useful if all we want to do is scream slogans, call names and generally abuse those who disagree with us, but it will contribute to the clarity of our thinking and the honesty of our approach to issues.

How many people who name the name of Jesus can even begin to describe the complexity of this most famous person in all history?

How many people who pronounce confidently on the problem of dealing with cunning and remorseless terrorists could handle even the simplest hostage situation if they were actually in charge?

A lot of us, I'm afraid, don't even sound like plausible Monday morning quarterbacks.

Amen Joycey

We can go back to Exodus and the plagues that God put upon that stubborn tingod pharoah because he refused to listen. Sodom/Gomorrah..
those people got fire in their nostrils, not a dribble of water. Jericho, the judgement on the
evil kings of Israel and the people because of their evil.

Yes, Joycey, God is a Holy God and He hates SIN.
And I believe He's started some judging of this country since the people chose a man of death over a woman of life. The resident troll hasn't a clue regarding God's holiness, His wrath..Doug's analogy of Christ in the Temple is a good one..if He got Mad at the moneychangersI shudder to think how mad He is at the baby killers that have forced us
to become partners in their crime of torture and execution of God's babies and the expsure of those who manage to survive. For this to continue in this country is mocking God.

Ranger29?
How would you extract the name and location of the wack-job with dynomite planted under the Austin State House?

Ranger
Care to share you interpretation of Revelations? Because Joycey's is pretty damn accurate to my knowledge.

Read Revelations
When the Christ returns in glory from heaven on horseback with His armies to judge the blood of his enemies in the valley will reach the horses bridles. I believe leading up to His return there will be plagues as there were in the time of Moses. God is not only merciful He is holy. He is not opposed to the use of violence when He deems it necessary. The government is not an individual. God did not command any government to turn its cheek. The government is responsible for protecting its citizens from enemies. It is reponsible for keeping law and order. We as a nation do not shout, "Give me peace or give me death".
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