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Saturday, June 14, 2008
Doug Giles :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Detergent Church: Sola Scriptura or Sola Cultura
by Doug Giles
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Herewith is my last installment on why I believe the church is culpable for our cultural corruption and my top ten raucous remedies to help the church with its mad cow disease. My recommendations are:

1. Get men who dig being rowdy back in the pulpit.

2. Could we have some sound doctrine, por favor?

3. Preach scary sermons (at least every fourth one).

4. Get rid of 99.9% of “Christian” TV.

5. Quit trying to be relevant and instead become prophetic contrarians, I’m talking contra mundus, mama!

6. Put a 10-year moratorium on “God wants you rich” sermons (yeah, that’s what we need to hear nowadays, you morons, more sermons about money, money, money!).

7. Embrace apologetics and shun shallow faith.

8. Evangelize like it’s 1999.

9. Push lazy Christians to get a life or join a Satanic Church.

10. Demand that if a Christian gets involved in the arts that their “craft” must scream excellence and not excrement.

Having covered points one though five in my previous three columns, here’s my final whack at six through ten. Enjoy . . .

6. Put a 10-year moratorium on “God wants you rich” sermons (yeah, that’s what we need to hear nowadays, you morons, more sermons about money, money, money!). I’ve got to confess, I like money, and the more the merrier as far as I’m concerned. Money has been good to me. In addition, I’ve got to come clean and proudly announce that the Bible is not anti-denari, much to the chagrin of the pro-poverty Christians. Matter of fact, the Bible is chock-full of holy wisdom on how one can righteously make, adroitly juggle and justly bequeath one’s hard-earned drachmas.

So, I don’t have problems with either having cash or hearing about it from a balanced biblical context. The two things that I think do a massive disservice to God and country and make me want to spit are, one: the obvious hucksters (and the not so obvious hucksters) in the pulpit and on “Christian” TV who blather on about it week after week, and two: The Judases who preach the happy clappy crud that does not righteously offend, all for the sake of keeping the lemmings blissful and the offering baskets stuffed full.

Hey, Pastor Money Freak Boy: how about mixing up your teaching a tad? You’re becoming a wee bit obvious. Here’s a thought: How about preaching the gospel every now and then, or teaching on apologetics (if you even know what that is) so that your flock can defend their faith, or talk about how the Christian can be a major player in salvaging our nation, or teaching on the armor of God, or going verse by verse through the book of Romans? What do you think about that, Slingblade?

The Detergent Church, on the other hand, will not be imbalanced with a glut of money messages, nor will it hype the crowd with outrageous “you’ll get rich if you give now” slop. Rather, it will address the pressing spiritual and social issues locally and nationally, give the biblical remedy to the malady, and not use Sundays to suck the cash out of the crowd ad nauseam. For the Detergent Church, a simple tithe and offering does just fine, thank you. The Detergent Church understands that if they do their job God will float their financial boat without them resorting to obsession or manipulation.

7. Embrace apologetics and shun shallow faith. The church has avoided apologetics for the last couple of decades like Paris Hilton avoids the pickled pig foot platter in the Telemundo green room. So, why has the church run away from both knowing and being able to articulate why they “believe” what they “believe” to the inquisitive unbeliever?

Well, truth be told, American Idol has been on and a lot of Christians are lazy, stupid and, in reality, they do not really care where we’re headed as a church or a nation. If they did, they’d get off their McDonald’s-enlarged languid laurels and do the difficult work of thinking and fighting for that which is holy, just and good.

The repercussion of the church taking a twenty year anti-intellectual nap is that we have morphed from being the sharp army of God to a dull gaggle of clods. Yep, Christians having embraced feelings over facts has left large chunks of Christendom intellectually naked before the anti-Christian Torquemadas who would love to see the church relegated to a religious ghetto on the sidelines of life.

The Detergent Church doesn’t shun the role of the mind in the life of the believer. Like our testicles, we like our brains and believe that we don’t have to check either at the door of the church to be a Christian. The Detergent Church thinks it is a sin and a scandal for congregants to stay stupid and not be able to give an answer for that which they believe. Yep, they take Jesus’ command to love God with all their minds seriously.

8. Evangelize like it’s 1999. You know what I miss? I miss the raw, politically incorrect turn-or-burn messages that used to be part and parcel of the evangelical world before it went limp and moved from sola scriptura to sola cultura.

Evangelism proper used to mean a message of salvation via the sacrifice of God’s only son (that would be Jesus Christ for you ignorant secular darlings) from God’s temporal and eternal wrath, brought about not by driving an SUV, but by intrinsically rebellious men and women constantly giving God the middle finger by what they both say and do (that’s my definition of moral depravity, thank you very much).

Classic Christ-centered evangelism, as you can imagine, used to scare the bejesus out of the contumacious crowd. The good news only left the hell-bound heathen with the warm and fuzzies after it fully woke them up regarding how damned they were and what a great escape Christ’s death, burial and resurrection was for their sorry backside. It was a beautiful thing. Oh! And it also changed not only their constituent makeup but also altered the culture around them.

Yep, the internal transformation from being a self-obsessed me monkey to being a Christ focused follower had not only great internal ramifications for the sinner but also positive external cultural effects everywhere the “good news” was preached and received. Need an example? The United States of America was founded by Christian men who were not a part of seeker-friendly, spayed and neutered churches. The gospel they were served was the old school Puritan brew that solidly shook both the sinner and shaped society. This untainted, untamed “good news” that humble men embraced not only caused them to bank heaven via Christ but also spawned the US of flippin’ A. Coincidence? I don’t think so.

The reason our nation is going to go down the latrine is because evangelism has had its teeth pulled. The message now gently gums the sinner versus fanging their carotid. It’s culturally correct and man-focused instead of being Christocentric and Bible-based. How cute.

The Detergent Church, however, does not try to sneak Jesus into people’s lives like he’s a 16-year-old chick trying to get into Liquid on her sister’s ID. No, we preach it raw and real even though we’ve been told by the church “experts” that our PoMo crowd can’t take Jesus straight. The Detergent Church doesn’t dial Christ down; we don’t de-radicalize Him for postmodern puss-n-boots. We’re too afraid we’d turn the good news into bland and false news that has no power either to truly deliver a person or culture from sin’s corruption.

9. Push lazy Christians to get a life or join a Satanic Church. The Bible condemns the slacker, Christian or not. Plain and simple, “Christian,” if you’re a gum smackin’ indolent Lurch who moves through life with the vision of Cyclops and the vigor of a Xanaxed slug crawling up a sheared cliff in the intensified gravity of the planet Jupiter, then God’s getting ready to axe you. Where do I base my claims, you ask? From the Bible you never read, that’s where.

What’s weird is that the church is stuffed full of whining babies, welfare brats, and apathetic complainers who simply refuse to get a life. I have friends who are blind, crippled, have brain damage, cerebral palsy, or have been raped or experienced incest who are powerful and productive Christians of which you would never know that they had any kind of serious setbacks. With the odds tremendously stacked against them they have slayed their dragons, conquered their mountains and have been insane examples of faith at work.

Then we have the little wussies who have found within the church an extended womb of enormous proportions where they can live and wallow in the warm amniotic fluid of gooey fellowship that affords them the wherewithal to never, never grow up.

The Detergent Church, on the other hand, expects folks to get a life and to sport the bulldog attitude that Christ had, especially if you’re an able-bodied guy between the ages of 18-40. The Detergent Church has no room for poodles trying to milk the church or the government when they have, in Christ, the means to overcome whatever stuff gets shot in their faces.

10. Demand that if a Christian gets involved in the arts that their “craft” must scream excellence and not excrement. Traditionally, when the Church has been at the top of its game, not burning witches or applying thumbscrews to petty thieves, we’ve had a high view of the pen, the paint brush, the piano and the chisel. Art itself needed no rationalization, and for five hundred years brilliant art emerged from the Church. Orthodox, biblically-based, non-wacky clergy and laity took pleasure in living, the arts, culture, their own talents, and the abilities of those around them. They got the message that beauty and culture come from God and therefore are good, and they didn’t need a mediocre column written by a smart mouth to defend it.

The Bible shows off God’s love for artistic endeavors and creativity as much as it scares the heck out of the general public with the moral law. Matter of fact, the first people to be “filled with the Spirit” were not apostles or prophets, but artists (see Exodus 35).

And that leads me to ask, where has the brilliant art gone? Where is the mind-blowing stuff, y’know, the paintings, sculptures, architecture and music that make you dribble your Slurpee down your shirt? Where are the books that are weighty and transcendent, books with a shelf life of 500 years, versus the five weeks my last book had? Where in the world is clever and tasteful Christian TV, and why do we have to wait twenty years between solid movies like Chariots of Fire and The Passion of the Christ?

I’ll tell you why . . . The Church has embraced a low view of the arts. God hasn’t changed His high view of art, we have. And here’s the painful reality: If the Church doesn’t shed this point of view regarding quality artistic endeavors, if we stay removed from creativity and human expression, then we will forever live on the peripheries of the public square, whining about Michael Moore movies.

The Detergent Church understands the power of the arts and doesn’t avoid them or produce shoddy stabs at artistic endeavors but instead tosses up to God our utmost for His highest.

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About The Author
Doug Giles’ new book “If You're Going Through Hell, Keep Going!" is now available. Ann Coulter says "Doug Giles is a substantive and funny tour de force for traditional values.” Doug’s talk show and video blog can be seen and heard at www.ClashRadio.com.
 
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Whatever You End Up With...
...it's going to miss the mark. Sola scriptura is a myth. It's the holy grail of religion. The Bible alone cannot show you the way.

Here's why. The Apostle Peter tells us: "...no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (2 Peter 1:20-21)

Yeah, yeah, I know. Peter specifically mentions prophecy, but the principle is the same: Absent living men of God, as were the ancient prophets and apostles, you will never get it right.

A guy from Harvard counted 33,000 different sects of ways to be Christian. Not exactly Paul's "one body, one faith, one baptism." With Sola Biblia you will be "forever tossed to and fro, carried with every wind of doctrine by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to decieve."

I would underline the word forever if I could.

The "perfecting of the saints" can only happen when the body of Christ is built on a foundation of living apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone.

The church for which you long is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This is the church he will "receive unto himself, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing."

No man, not even Giles, can concoct such a church without the power and authority of God. You receive that authority directly from God, not from the Bible.



Commandment # 4
Hey, Doug.

I agree. So are you willing to tell your fellow Christians to "remember the Sabbath Day and keep it holy?

Giving up the idol of sports - soccer, football, etc. along with shopping - for resting the whole day and going to evening Church?

I know salvation is sola Christo, but when you start talking about sola cultura, it seems to me this is the one area Christian's have not been obedient to the Word.

They have caved to the culture and gone right along, shopping on Sunday (including eating out after Church at restaurants), skipping church for kids events, walking in marathons - the list is endless. And I'm not writing this as one who is perfect - for sure.

I know I'll get the legalism label for this, but no one would argue with the other Commandments in most cases, at least on the surface.



Tithe?
Wow Doug, you've been going great with these points until you dropped that bomb. You talk about studying the Bible, but I think if one does they will find that the tithe wasn't money at all (it was food) and that it was to be given to the Levitical priests at the Jewish Temple. If the tithe was taught in the New Testament, preachers wouldn't have to resort to the book of Malachi to knock our heads with it. Jesus taught that we should give 100% to G-d-- not just a measly 10%--and he wasn't limiting that to our money either. Just a point of order though because otherwise you have a lot of goood things to say about modern "churchianity."

 

Sabbath
And speaking of Sabbath...Do you mean the 7th day? Or the Sunday you refer to, which is the first day on every calendar. Who authorized man to change God's Commandment, anyway? And of course "the churches" go right along with this change.

Jones: You're Right
New Testament Christians sold all they had and laid it at the apostles' feet. They were stuck dead if they held something back.

Even if your pastor wants to revert back to the Law of Moses and Malachi and ask you to tithe, where can you find a high priest or a storehouse these days?

Of course, paying tithes pre-dates the Law of Moses. Abraham paid tithes to Melchisedek.

Malachi is a problem because those who rob God and do not tithe will be burned at the time of the Lord's Second Coming.

It's tough to figure it out exactly what God wants us to do through the Bible alone, however sincerely we desire to follow him.




Small problem . . . (Part I)
The root of these problems lies in the very source of Mr. Giles' solution. The Reformation only unleashed the egocentrism that the church in Rome began with the introduction of Aristotelean scholasticism. Sola scriptura was a creation of the 16th century, as well as any number of other theological positions that have led to the very problems that Mr. Giles is currently lamenting. So what are his answers?

Only to perpetuate the very core sources of the problems. The abandonment of Holy Tradition for the egocentric source of "theology" and "interpretation" has led to where Western Christianity is now. The "God wants us to be rich" sermons are, logically speaking, no different than the version Christianity that Mr. Giles wants us, ostensibly, to follow. That is, without any solid, continuing Holy Tradition that transcends individual human interpretation any one person's interpretation of the Faith is just as "valid" as anyone else's.

Even the Scriptures tell us there is only one Faith, not many or several "interpretations." Jude 3 tells us that we are to "contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." This means Christ brought us the Faith once for all. It doesn't need to be rediscovered or reinterpreted.


Small problem . . . (Part II)
In addition, St. Paul the Apostle tells us that "even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be anathema [accursed]." (Galatians 1:8). Again, one Faith, one Truth, not to be changed.

St. Paul also tells us that "[t]here is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in all." (Ephesians 4:4-5).

There is only one Faith, and it must be kept inviolate - not renewed, not "rediscovered." It was never lost, otherwise Christ's promise to establish His Church (not His "followers" or "general set of beliefs") so that the gates of hades would not prevail against it would be a lie and the power of the Holy Spirit, promised to be with the Church until the end, a failure.

Our very mentality, the Western viewpoint of what the Faith is, and what the Church is (neither a simple set of ideas nor a simple, earthly organization) needs to be abandoned before we can truly get beyond the rampant individualism that so endangers the Faith in the West.

the sinner,

Charles

Small problem . . . (Part II)
In addition, St. Paul the Apostle tells us that "even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be anathema [accursed]." (Galatians 1:8). Again, one Faith, one Truth, not to be changed.

St. Paul also tells us that "[t]here is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in all." (Ephesians 4:4-5).

There is only one Faith, and it must be kept inviolate - not renewed, not "rediscovered." It was never lost, otherwise Christ's promise to establish His Church (not His "followers" or "general set of beliefs") so that the gates of hades would not prevail against it would be a lie and the power of the Holy Spirit, promised to be with the Church until the end, a failure.

Our very mentality, the Western viewpoint of what the Faith is, and what the Church is (neither a simple set of ideas nor a simple, earthly organization) needs to be abandoned before we can truly get beyond the rampant individualism that so endangers the Faith in the West.

the sinner,

Charles

Yup, the Sabbath Is Another Problem
Is it the first day or the seventh day? The NT implies Sunday, resurrection day. But Sabbath means 7th, doesn't it? So which is it?

My evangelical friends feel sports on Sunday are just fine because it's "family time." Others go out to dinner after church. But the 10 Commandments say nothing about family time or prohibit causing others to work on our behalf on the Sabbath.

I get flyers from megachurches inviting me to worship, including on Saturday evening as a substitute for Sunday, "since Sunday is such a busy day." They also advertise a soccer clinic after services.

That didn't seem Biblical to me.

Sabbath
It ever has been and ever remains that the "Children of the Lord":

Worshiped on the Sabbath: The Lord of the Sabbath demanded it.
Paid their tithing.
Were expected to obey.(1 Samuel 15:22)

After all: they were not the "ten suggestions" that Moses eventually brought down from Sinai.


Quite Correct, thru and thru
And the 10 Commandents were not rescided with the coming of Christ. We all remember what Christ said to the young man, asking what he could do receive "life."

Every pastor in town will have a different notion of what it means to keep a Holy Sabbath Day. In the OT breaking the sabbath was a capital offense, and Christ continued to command it during his earthly ministry.

But nowadays, who can discuss it without falling into that dang "legalistic" abyss?

Count your blessings, my friend.

Correction!!
Matlock,

You need to get out of TX and see the world. In Europe the calendars DO begin the week with Monday, NOT Sunday as you say

Correction!!
Matlock,

You need to get out of TX and see the world. In Europe the calendars DO begin the week with Monday, NOT Sunday as you say

Article and comments
What a sick pile of nonsense. As an outside observer, an atheist, I think all of this argument over religion would be hilarious if it didn't sometimes end up in the type of confrontation we're facing with the religious nuts in the Middle-East.

Please grow up, the whole bunch of you, starting with Giles!

The gospel according to the Scriptures…

Why do men reject the authority of the Scriptures? The answer is always that they do not understand and believe its message so they must establish their own authority with a message they can believe.

Ask them how a man is made right with God. Is his righteousness imputed to him through faith in Jesus Christ? Are his sins forgiven based on the work of Christ on the cross? Is salvation of grace through faith in the gospel message revealed in the Scriptures?

Those who reject Biblical authority must add something to the finished work of Christ on behalf of sinners. What they add changes the gospel into no gospel at all. It nullifies the work of Christ making it of no effect. Those who believe they have any standing before God other than the perfect righteousness of Christ are called Pharisees in the Bible.

What does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness. Therefore, justification is of faith that it might be of grace, not of works or any merit on our part [Romans 4]. This is the gospel revealed in Scripture. The man made religions are evident in that they preach another gospel.

leave churchs alone
what i believe e you are seeing in the fragmentation of the church as far a political power and and moral, power this is a good thing .. we ned much more more of the same , surely there are those amonf the believers who can devise new doctrinal differences, new disagreements on moral issues, so that we get more divisions and less plitical power. i have one lets have the same full fledged arguement about admitting masturbaters to the pulpit that we are having with homosexuals. i meann how far apart can they be, both mortal sins desinged to cast your tainted immortal sould into the flming culdro i cant finish that without giggling. , there are a sufficient number around as i understand it a few aroundan we can line up some protests if you try to keep thm out. anf if you dont try to keep them out thety are very good at thinking up ways to make you keep thm out. its ragged but its a start . any more ideas out there more ideas. out there. women who persist in precticing witchcraft. i dont think we got them all

The tv churches with money
and political connections seem to be doing quite well promoting tithing as a way to financial prosperity as well as personal enrichment, such as the "numbered collection of believers."

10 Commandments (revised)...
In these days of Politically Correct Christianity the 10 Commandments have been re-named:

'The 10 Things You Might Like To Do, Or Maybe Not. It's Up To You, Don't Worry Too Much About It And Pick Up A 6-Pack Of Cola-Lite For Me If You're At The Mall On Sunday Morning Instead Of Being At Church'. Amen

And while we're at it:
1) No politically incorrect sermons, please.
2) Nothing to wake up the well fed, TV addicted, sugar-bomb junkies.
3) Controversy and provocation will NOT be tolerated. Neither from the Left nor Right.

Ladies, Gentlemen and others, our sermons are so clean they squeak.

MRC...
...Can we talk,man?

I am the absolute last guy in the world to try to correct anyone elses'grammar,spelling,English,etc,but you detract from what you are trying to say.

Please do three things:

(1).Learn how to make paragraphs.

(2).RE-READ YOUR COMMENTS BEFORE POSTING!If you don't understand it,how are the rest of us to do so?

(3).getaspelchck!

The Sabbath
For the Jews and some Christian sects, the Sabbath is the 7th day of the week, Saturday (actually, sundown Friday thru sundown Saturday). Most Christian faiths, however, worship on Sunday in commemoration of the Resurrection.

I think some of you missed the point...
Mr. Giles' main point, I believe, was that the church needs to ACT like the church. Paul debated with unbelievers and could apparently hold his own against the worldly wisdom of his day. We in America (and maybe elsewhere in the West) are not capable of that for the most part. We ARE stupid. We ARE lazy and seem quite apathetic to what's going on around us -- unless it's about our sports teams or maybe the latest model Mustang.

Sports teams are fun. Cars are necessary and can also be fun. But when this is what our minds are consumed with, we become weak and ineffective. Atheistic "intellectuals" can run rings around most of us in a debate. I've seen it, heard it, experienced it. It has been a source of real embarrassment to me.

Another thing I'm seeing little of is miracles. Oh there are those with healing ministries, and sometimes even raising people from the dead (check out God.tv for an example). But most of us are not being used by God to do these things. Where's the power we see in the early church? Where's the willingness to lose it all to make a difference? This is spiritual warfare folks, fought ideologically in the physical world (except when we're arrested or killed for our beliefs) and probably violently in the spiritual realm.

We fall back, don't do our jobs, and witness the results: gay marriage legalized, moral relativism taught in the public school system, broken families, gang violence, more intrusive government (broken families produce broken kids who still need mommy and daddy and may unconsciously seek that out in Big Brother), immoral leaders (immoral people will elect immoral leaders), increasing anti-Christian bigotry in the public square, etc.

America will not stand if the people lose their spiritual foundation. It may not happen over night, but moral decline has eroded societies in the past. We are not immune.

Giles, GREAT editorial. Thank you. I'm giving a copy of this to my pastor.

Some of the points that stuck out for me
4. Get rid of 99.9% of “Christian” TV. Sorry, but TBN *SUCKS* (for the most part). If it ain't some slick-haired southern preacher sounding like he's more worried about showmanship than teaching the Truth, it's some other corny program. And what's with those hair styles? C'mon people, you look ridiculous and just reinforce all those negative stereotypes.

7. Embrace apologetics and shun shallow faith. Excellent. I.e., let's use the brains God gave us and stop quoting 13-word phrases from the JT Chick track when debating a secularist with PhDs coming out of this petunia.

9. Push lazy Christians to get a life or join a Satanic Church. Oh yeah baby! Get moving or get out of the way! (Man does this apply to me. Sheesh.) Be light and salt and serious for God, affecting and flavoring the culture around you... not being diluted by it.

10. Demand that if a Christian gets involved in the arts that their “craft” must scream excellence and not excrement. That was... *gulp*... beautiful. I have been saying this since I saw those really horrible Christian movies of the 70s or thereabouts... since the 80s, when so much of my favorite music wasn't even looked at by Christians. Today, we have Passion of the Christ and The Nativity. OH sure I could throw in the Left Behind movies... only they have SUCKED. A real embarrassment to the Christian community. Either do it right or don't do it at all. Make stuff that will draw people out and make them WANT to see it. Or hear it.

garyg24
Having crticized the Church in my post (#2), I can say with confidence the only reason you are taking a breath is because a graceful God allows you to.

Now, that statement is either correct or not.

But if not, what purpose do you have in this world? How does your life have meaning? You will only be here for a few years and then you will die, whether you believe or not.

We Christians - regardless of our sins and differences in theology, look to a God who has revealed Himself in both creation and His Word.

You are free to reject that - but this same God calls on you to believe in Him. It is not a fantasy, but the truth. However, if it were - you would be absolutely right - we would be the most pathetic people on earth. What vanity it wouldbe to worship and serve something not there - in a way that is self sacrificing and where we constantly have to fight the temtations within us!

You on the other hand, are free to live a life unrestained by morals or anything you don't like. If it feels good do it, if it is not right in your own eyes, don't do it. That is indeed the way of the world outside of Jesus Christ.

And I will be praying for you this Lord's Day that you seek the God who desires your salvation.

Churches Need to Get out of politics
Churches should certainly stand firm on their moral convictions but at the same time they should get out of politics. When church leaders become power brokers they have to make compromises to principles. Politics is full of hypocracy so when Chruch leaders engage in it they become hypocrates. Churches need to follow all of the teaching of Christ and not fixate on a few passages that fit easily and neatly into a vogue ideology like obsessing about Gay Marrage or Abortion, Christ nevber spoke about either of these things but he did speak volumns about the poor. THat is not to say that you should not oppose gay marrage or abortion but if you are not looking our for the meek and helping the poor, what kind of a church are you?


Church Identity Crisis
As I understand it, the term "church" is not found in the primary documents of Scripture. It is "ecclesia" in Greek and "qahal" in Hebrew. If we're accurate and translate everything through the Hebrew that Jesus communicated in (not Aramaic), then we'll use "congregation" or "assembly" in our terminology, as "church" comes from "kirke" in German via the KJV, a.k.a. "Circe" the daughter of the Sun God who uses spells to turn men into animals, which describes the behavior of "the wild branch" of the Olive Tree of Israel through much of its history. Jesus taught a transcultural, transformational, messianic Judaism, not the artificial "church" of the Church Fathers. Reforming an artificial creation of men will not lead to holiness. Following Jesus instead of the Church Fathers, etc., will. The "church" is what it is because it has missed the mark regarding its own identity.

Let's not argue about the small stuff
"Don't worry about what you do not understand... Worry about what you do understand in the Bible but do not live by." ~ Corrie Ten Boom

That is one of my favorite quotes because each of us will probably never fully know the whole Bible. But there are some pretty obvious things in there that Christians aren't grasping. We can argue over what day the Sabbath should be celebrated once the statistics for divorce among Christians doesn't mirror that of the world. Or let's focus our energy on sexual purity or getting rid of envy in our lives etc. etc.
I'm not going to argue if the tithe was only meant for the Old Testament or if it meant money or food. Really, people, Jesus was tortured on our behalf, is 10% too much to ask to ensure that pastors are paid and the lights stay on at the church????? (Re-watch The Passion of the Christ if you have trouble answering that question).

Doug, Maybe I missed it...

Where is the rest of #8? And if the is the last installment, what happened to #9 and #10?

I liked your series.

K.G. Jun 14, 2008 - 11:56 PM

You would prefer that we did not look it up?

2 Peter 1:20-21 "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." NIV

So, what Peter says is that the prophets did not write the Scriptures from their own minds but that God inspired them.

This supported by 2 Tim 3:16-17 "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." NIV

If we were to believe you, then we could not read the Bible at all. Why would God give us His word and then tell us that we could not read it?



birdman
Try the same verses you cite in the King James version of the Bible...the one that most Christians accept... and start with verse 19.(I wonder who in the NIV version changed completely the meaning of the scripture...hummm a prophet?)
Also you might wish to read Amos 3:7.

Sadly, as in old testament times the question arises "Is there not a prophet in all of Israel?"

Good Sabbath to you!!

Cultural Christianity VS The Real Thing
There is a saying that God doesn't have any grandchildren, only children.

Each person has to come to God through Christ on his own, regardless of what his parents believe.

During the times when Christianity was the "in thing," and everyone went to church regardless of what they actually believed, it made the culture better, but it isn't always good for the church.

When there are lots of pew people who sit with minds disengaged, without the indwelling Holy Spirit, and the personal reading of The Word to give them discernment, they will passively accept anything that eminates from the pulpit.

Often, pew people have a commitment to a denomination or a building, the way they are a fan of the home baseball team in their city, and go to that church out of tradition and not out of their own personal faith.

When this happens, it is easy for false shephards to sieze control over the denominations. When the discernless hear the same message coming from the pastor that they hear echoing in the popular culture, it feels familiar to them.

So when they have a woman in the pulpit, or when their church performs gay marriages, or when their pastor shouts "God D@^n America," and preaches Liberation Theology (Marxism) they accept it without question.

But when a Bible believing church, where all the members are Born Again, (not Jimmuh carter style), reading The Word for themselves and indwelt with the Holy Spirit, they will boot out any pastor at the first sign of apostasy.

thru and thru
It seems to me that the Amos 3 is about God's power and righteous judgement against both Israel and against the nations that persecute His chosen people.

It seems to me that we should be reading the Bible in context and asking the Holy Spirit to reveal the meaning of each passage as a whole, instead of lifting verses out of context in order to prove an unrelated doctrine.

For example, I may use "The Romans Road" to briefly explain the Gospel, but I would encourage them to read the entire Book of Romans in context to expand their understanding of those verses. The isolated verses are ones that summerize the book and say the same thing as the passage that contains them.

Going back verses 9 & 10 to the Book of Amos, we can see that God is using the word "prophesy" to mean that He wants the listener to warn those who "do not know how to do what is right... these who hoard up violence and devastation in their citadels.?
He tells the listener to be witnesses to the oppressions and tumaults among them from an objective perspective.
http://nasb.scripturetext.com/amos/3.htm

charlesmartel1: Question
What denomination are you from?

On another topic
I was listening to the radio, and heard a caller complaining about someone (can't remember who) who said that slavery in America was an evil that turned out to be a blessing for the descendants of the slaves.

Other people complain when this or that pastor say that God used the Nazi Holocaust to return the Jews to the Holy Land.

This is scriptural, and the concept has been discussed among theologeans for centuries.

If we listen to the Voice of this World, we may become convinced that speaking the truth about scripture out loud and in public is a mistake, because the servants of the Devil might twist our words and bear false witness against us. The wimpy might think that it is far better to keep quiet in our Sunday ghettos, than to be verbally assaulted in the public square.

But we have been told not to hide our light under a basket.

If you stand on a hill with your light shining forth, it makes it easier for the Enemy to take shots at you.

Therefore, as the culture becomes more and more secular, we must have more and more courage.

cahones in the pulpit
I think Doug is right on! Let's dispense with the subject of doctrine and concern ourselves first with what God considers to be manhood, and what real mean do. For example, they lead their families as a kind,understanding, and masculine person who listens-- but they don't follow their wives. This is where it all begins-- the family unit. The husband teaches the wife, but he mas to be prepared, first.

Women suffrage began as a reaction to the abrogation of masculine responsibility and it grew to become the effeminization of the (so-called) "church!" So today we have two extremes--the hell-fire-and-damnation nut-cakes (who don't preach scripture) or the Peter-Pan handholders whom all the little old ladies especially like, and who remind you of the snake in the Jungle Book. None of them are worth a hoot, and that doesn't exonerate the ones between those extremes, either.

You preach scripture ONLY when your congregation arrives with their Bible, a pen, and notepad. Then whyen verses are given, the first thing you get is the book, chapter, and verse. If you are not reading it along with the preacher and proving what it is that you are supposed to know, then you are one of the lullaby crowd that has gotten this country where it is today. You are worthless, and no Christian! Leave any other kind of church. Get out. Do something right in your life!

Typical American Churchianity today is just a blight on the landscape. The liberals have it right-- "get rid of them-they make us sick!"


thru and thru Jun 15, 2008 - 10:14 AM

Try the same verses you cite in the King James version of the Bible..."

The KJV was translated from the Latin Vulgate version. The Latin Vulgate is/was the Bible of the RCC. The NIV is an attempt to bypass a translation of a translation by researching the Greek texts directly.

2 Peter 1:19-21 "And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." NIV

The Roman Church at one point denied the people access to the Bible. Why would the Church do that? Which version do you think the Roman Catholic Church would perfer? Their own translation that secures the position of the priest, or the one that puts the onus on the individual person?

The KJV is known as the authorized version. Who authorized it and why? Do you suppose he might have had an axe to grind in this discussion?

But you do not answer my question. Why would God give us His word and then demand that we do not read it?

Misrepresentations
There are so many misrepresentations of the truth about the Christian faith posted here that I cannot address them all. SO I am going to address two.

K.G. the LDS church is a fraud, based on the false prophecies of a necromancer. There is nothing true about it. And as far as the LDS charge of all the denominations being proof that the rest of Christendom is false, how do you respond to the FACT that there are about 100 splits of the LDS church? And many are more closely following Smith's teaching than the Utah branch!

As for the Sabbath, it has always been - and always will be - from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. Sunday has never been the Sabbath, regardless of how people want to twist it to be so. Additionally, the command about honoring the Sabbath is the only one of the 10 commandments not in the N.T., and in fact is spoken against (Col. 2:16-17). The Sabbath was never meant for anyone other than the Jew and was a sign between God and the Jew and no one else (Ex. 31:12-17; Deut. 5:15; Ezek. 20:12, 20; Neh. 9:14).

thru and thru

I meant to post the KJV:

2 Peter 1:19-21 "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." KJV

Instead I posted the NIV again. But even so, does it apply to the private interpretation of the prophet? Was the prophet who wrote 2 Peter allowed his own private interpretation or was he inpsired by God?

Responses to Doug
Reading most of these responses, it only shows that your article is correct. in being both an ex-catholic and also an ex-cult member I can see where these people come from. Most of these responders are those to whom you talk of and have never really sat down and given the Bible a really hard study, asking God thru His Holy Spirit to reveal TRUTH to them.Instead they rely upon what some priest tells them as the gospel truth, never being a Berean (not just reading the verses, but really looking into the Greek and Hebrew to see if what they are being taught is the truth.This means not just using Catholic sources, but a variety of sources. Like you say, One cannot be lazy in this Christian Life. Even getting rid of sin in one's life requires a conscience effort on our part every minute of our waking day.

Hoc est enim Corpus meum.
For this is my Body, and we Christians, all of us, that claim belief in a Risen, and Everlasting Lord are ONE BODY.

Doug, and everyone else,
The Lord's yoke is gentle, but it is still a yoke. Our burdens when we trust and believe in the Lord are light, but are still burdens in this life.

There will be a judgment, and we will have to answer for our actions.

Lord have mercy.

Sabbath keeping
Here is just a thought. In Matthew 28:1 we read "In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week,...."
Tearing this verse down using the Greek, one finds this for the words used.
To start the word 'day' was added on. It was not in the original. The word 'end'(opse), means late (in the evening). Dawn is EPIPHOSKO, to grow light, in the sense of shining upon.(This definition say to look under 'draw'), so here goes. EPIPHOSKO, to dawn (lit. to make to shine upon), is said of the approach of the Sabbath, Luke 23:54 (marg., "began to dawn"); cp. Matt. 28:1.
looking up the Greek word for 'week' is interesting. It is the same Greek word for Sabbath (SABBATON).
Matthew 28:1 really says: "Late in the evening of the SABBATON, as it began to "shine upon'the first of the SABBATON."
The death and ressurection of Christ brought about a new SABBATON. a close study of all the verses used by the Saturday sabbath keepers will reveal errors in there thinking. There is also early Church history that speaks of worshiping on SUNDAY, THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK, as a reverence for Christ.

Mountain Rose
I am in the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA).

However, unfortunately, the PCA is not without it's issues on keeping the Sabbath - now the Lord's Day (refining and clarifying my earlier comment). I believe the day of worship changed from the last day to the first day of the week with the resurrection of Christ, as another poster here commented.

The question I pose to professing Christians is - do you believe you need to keep the Fourth Commandment. If so, the question then is - how do you do it?

It's a toughie today with all the pressures our society now poses.

Sabbath
Glen:
"The Sabbath was never meant for anyone other than the Jew and was a sign between God and the Jew and no one else..."
I guess when Moses came down from Sinai with the ten commandments he asked the others of the 11 tribes to be excused while he only talked with the tribe of Judah?

LOL!!!

It is a Sign between God and the children of Israel....all of them. So "chose you this day"...people will either worship the Sabbath or not.

Birdman,
Thanks you for clarifying my point:
The NIV is an "attempt" to clarify....you seem to place a lot of faith in your "scholars" ...just as the King James compilers did.

There must not be a prophet "in all of Israel".

Of course we should read the scriptures and we should seek the "Spirit of Truth" to help guide us as we read.

Good Sabbath and happy father's day!

Why?
...are Giles' book sales ranking on Amazon so abysmally low?

thru and thru Jun 15, 2008 - 1:08 PM

"Thanks you for clarifying my point: The NIV is an "attempt" to clarify ... you seem to place a lot of faith in your "scholars" ... just as the King James compilers did."

As I stated, the KJV is a translation of a translation of the Greek text. The Roman Church scholars translated the Greek text into Vulgate Latin. Do you trust the Roman translators? The KJV is a tranlation into English from the Vulgate Latin verse. Do you trust the English translators? If the Latin translators got something wrong then any translation thereafter would be also be wrong.

The NIV is a translation from the Greek text without any intermediate. Does that mean these translators got it right? I don't know; but at least, there are fewer steps inwhich something can be wrong.

Perhaps you seek to convince me one version is the correct version over another? I tend to read more than one version and then compare the meanings. Truth is usually somewhere in between.

I suppose the best solution is to have only the original Greek text to read.

Than you for the father's day wish! The same back at you.

Birdman

"I suppose the best solution is to have only the original Greek text to read."

No, the best solution is to have been there ourselves and "heard with our ears, seen with our eyes and understood with our hearts".
As Paul described our condition we now "see through a glass darkly".

Absent complete understanding, we must seek the Spirit that was promised would bring us the truth. That comes through obedience to his laws, commandments and His will.

I congratulate you, sir, in your search.

Thru and Thru
Okay, you play techincality with me. "Jews" is commonly used to refer to the entire nation of Israel. Yes, it derived from the tribe of Judah, or rather the kingdom of Judah after the split, but historically it is a generic term for Israel. SO, the Sabbath was a sign between God and Israel, or as we generically say, God and the "Jews". Okay?

My point is still that there is no such thing as a Christian "Sabbath." Even Israel did not set aside the Sabbath for worship - they saw their whole life as worship. I also, as a Christian, worship every day of the week, but Sunday, in honor of the resurrection, has traditionally been set aside as a day of corporate worship and the building up of the body. It is not a Sabbath. It was the Romanist Church that decided to make it a legalistic day replacing the Jewish Sabbath, but then the Romanist Church also taught that the church replace Israel and that is why they have priests and such. They are in grave error with that belief system.

Birdman needs to study history
THe KJV Bible is not "a translation of a translation of the Greek." The KJV translators used the Masoretic text of the O.T and the Received Text of the N.T. as their underlying texts. They did use other previous translations for reference, including the Latin Vulgate, but they did not translate the Vulgate to make the KJV.

The NIV uses different underlying texts in both O.T. and N.T. than that which was used by the KJV. There is a lot of debate as to which are the best underlying texts. My personal belief after almost 7 years of research has led me to accept the Masoretic/Received Texts as the best, most accurate representations of the original.

If you're going to discuss Bible translations, please do a wee bit of research first.

Greek and New Testament
This is what is so funny about sola scriptura. If the Scripture is the Word of God (Christ was, actually) then you DO need to read the original Greek. After all, those specific words were chosen by God. Additionally, every translation is a new interpretation. That is one of many reasons why the idea of sola scriptura is nonsense. Others include the fact that no one actually practices it (everyone has some sort of tradition from which he draws to interpret Scripture), and, by way of example, the whole Sabbath issue. Or the Levitical laws? What do we do with those, and why?

Many people have earnestly sought God and been led astray. How many different churches do we have? Why would the Spirit lead us in different ways that are, often, contradictory? They cannot all be right. And, if they are not all right, then why would the Holy Spirit use error mixed with Truth? God does not walk with error, or use it, ever. The Church is the pillar and ground of Truth, not individuals or individual interpretations (though the Church is the living Body of Christ, made up of individuals but not living as individuals, but as members of the Body).

the sinner,

Charles

Glenn Chatfield
Well, the Masoretic texts weren't quoted by Christ and the Apostles, were they? The LXX was good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

the sinner,

Charles

Glenn Chatfield Jun 15, 2008 - 2:05 PM

"Birdman needs to study history"

Glenn, if I have made a mistake, I apologize.

Do you suggest one version of the Bible is superior to another? If so, present your case. I will gladly read your opinions.

Glenn
Let us agree that the Savior was resurrected on the first day of the week. Peter and company thereafter met on the first day of the week as their Sabbath. I should think them a rather informed lot.
Jesus himself said that he had come to fulfill the Law of Moses and suggested that we all could do better in his sermon on the mount.
As he is the Lord of the Sabbath it would appear that he has chosen his apostles and the early church to meet on the first day as you pointed out in memory of his resurrection.
It is not surprizing that since Juda was apostate at the time of his ministry that he would want the destinction. That is also another nice exclamation point on him "fulfilling the law".

I have no problem with anyone who wishes their Sabbath to be on Friday-Saturday.

The greater principle is that we set aside time for HIM...one day a week....and not only that day but to seek His mind and will and carry His spirit always with us.

Lastly, Thanks for your input with Birdman....now I can only wait with great anticipation your delving into the Gnostic Christian writings. I expecially like the Valentinian writings....might just throw a 'monkey wrench' into things.

Textual criticism
The Masoretic text was not extant yet for Christ. And there is evidence that the original Hebrew (such as found in the Dead Sea Scrolls) as well as the LXX was used by Christ and the apostles. There is much in the LXX that Jews do not regard as canon. The Masoretic text is based on the original Hebrew, while the LXX is a Greek translation of the Hebrew with added stuff.

As to which is superior version of the Bible, that is something scholars will continue to debate. KJV had translational errors in itself, although there are KJV Only types who make it the actual Word of God. The NKJV fixes some of the errors. If you want Masoretic/TR text, then the KJV, NKJV and Jay Green's literal are about all you can find, and I start with those doing research studies. As for modern texts, I think the ESV is the best formal translation (NAS 2nd), while NIV, NET and HCSB are probably the best Dynamic/Formal models. Going further into the dynamic realm becomes more interpretation than translation. I have about 30 English translations I use for study and research. Some are terrible, like the CEV and NCV, but paraphrases such as the Message are total trash.

Justin Martyr (A.D. 100 to A.D. 165)
In chapter 67 of his First Apology, Justin wrote: "And on the day called Sunday an assembly is held in one place of all who live in town or country, and the records of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read as time allows.
Then when the reader is finished, the president in a discourse admonishes and exhorts (us)to imitate these good things.
Then we all stand up together and send up prayers; and as we said before, when we have finished praying, bread and wine and water [literally], are brought up, and the president likewise sends up prayers and thankgivings to the best of his ability, and the people assent, saying the Amen; and the elements over which thanks have been given are distributed, and everyone partakes; and they are sent through the deacons to those who are not present.
And the wealthy who so desire give what they wish, as each chooses; and what is collected is desposited with the president.
He helps orphans and widows, and those who through sickness or any other cause are in need, and those in prison, and strangers sojourning among us; in a word, he takes care of all those who are in need.
And we assemble together on Sunday, because it is the first day, on which God transformed darkness and matter, and made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead on that day; for they crucified him the day before Saturday; and the day after Saturday, which is Sunday, he appeared to his apostles and disciples, and taught them these things which we have presented to you also for your consideration."

There is no mention of the Roman Catholic Church changing anything here, since they did not come into existence untill the 4th century under Constantine.
In Justin's day assemblying was done on Sunday, the first day of the week.

Changing the Sabbath.
I did not say that the Romanist Church changed the Christian day of worship; what I stated was that they changed it to be the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a specific day that cannot be changed. God called the last day of the week the Sabbath for a purpose - because it was on the 7th day that He rested. Sunday, the Christian day of worhsip, was never intended to replace the Jewish Sabbath, yet that's what Rome did. The Sabbath is still the 7th day (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday). BUT the important thing to know is that the Gentile was never commanded to obey the Sabbath law. The Sabbath was a sign of a covenant between God and Israel, as noted previously. Paul told the Christian to let no one judge them in this respect, that the Sabbath was a shadow of the things to come and that the reality is in Christ (Col 2:16-17). Sabbath-keeping Christians are doing so only by person desire, not out of commmand. And it is legalistic to impose that teaching on those who do not keep it. There is no Christian day of rest; our rest is in Christ.

Birdman: You Wrote:
K.G. Jun 14, 2008 - 11:56 PM

You would prefer that we did not look it up?

2 Peter 1:20-21 "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." NIV

So, what Peter says is that the prophets did not write the Scriptures from their own minds but that God inspired them.

This supported by 2 Tim 3:16-17 "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." NIV

If we were to believe you, then we could not read the Bible at all. Why would God give us His word and then tell us that we could not read it?

KG says: Sorry to chime in so late. I went to church, even if it is Sunday. Sorry I didn't cite chapter and verse. I figured anyone who cared already knew it.

And "thru and thru" and you have discussed what I wrote quite thoroughly. I just want to correct your conclusion of what I said.

Of course, we should read the Bible. The more the better. But Peter (cited above) forbids "private interpretation." Who can authoratatively interpret? Prophets and apostles. These are God's authorized spokesmen.

God is not the author of confusion--like we have on this thread. I believe everyone here is sincere. Nearly everyone probably believes they enjoy the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

But we certainly are not coming to a unity of the faith. The question becomes who is authorized by God to interpret scripture for the whole of mankind or for the church?

Obviously not every Pastor Tom, Dick or Harry. It's private interprepation that has led to this scandal of the Christian church.


When will I return to Church?
When will I return to Church?

When will the Catholics finally see the reality, in the streets of Italy and Mexico, with the necessity to use the military to reign in the chaos…

Will the Catholics begin to figure out, the big lies of hippies that nobody can impose anything on anybody else, that resulted in Vatican II the Catholic Church went to the chalk board an wrote a thousand times we will not impose our religion on anybody any more…

When will the Catholics finally figure out this big lie causing this chaos is based on Cultural Marxism, the demand for everyone to have equality of power, and not on Christianity which was always imposed by the sword, the executioner and the strap…

Maybe in a hundred years…

When will churches in the US make the connection that their message has been changed since Woodstock and this has resulted in our prisons being full and our children in street gangs instead of churches…

Maybe in a hundred years…

When will I return to church? I left the church in 1999 and I’ll return when it’s the first post hippy generation message that stops honoring victims and returns to honoring men for being defenders of the faith. When it returns to honoring holy men instead of honoring perverts…

Happy Father’s Day…

K.G.
'The Bible alone cannot show you the way.' Your post of 11:56PM, 14 June.

Who or what are you saying can show us the way?

Re:chas
I too left the Catholic Church some 40 years ago. You don't need to return to the present day Roman Catholic Church.Just return to Christ.
The Catholic Church we have today is so vent on unity that they have forgotten that the Bible is talking of unity of the Spirit. They are fornicating (making a pact with)with different religious groups like muslims, budddhists, even the very Christians that up until a few years ago was taught to be an abomination.
There is a universal religion coming on the scene, which will be the church of the devil.
Our luives are about Christ, not a membership in a church or religion. Yes, we fellowship with the saints and take a day of rest (which the Sabbath really means).
I ask the same question from K.G. If not the Bible, then please tell us the way of SALVATION. I it Mary, The Pope, membership in a Church? Just what are you talking about?????

K.G. --- Read the scripture again...
And this time read it correctly...the scripture you are referring to of anninias and sapphira being struck dead because they did not give all they had was not because they refused to give all they had, but because they lied about giving all they had. If they had been honest with Peter, there is a very good shot that they would not have been struck dead...because the contributions to the early church in Jehrusalem were VOLUNTARY...so please get your facts straight and do more than just glance at the scriptures...actually READ them and UNDERSTAND them.

Glen
The Roman Catholics did not change Sunday to be the Sabbath. Read Christian History and you will see this is not true. What Constantine did was to declare that the day that Christians had there day of rest would also be the day that the courts, government offices, etc. would also have this as a day of rest (farm workers being exempt). Pagans also had Sunday as a day of rest.
If you would really study the Word of God, you would understand that when Christ rose from the dead, He changed the Sabbath to Sunday, whereas He and He alone is Lord of the Sabbath.
I see by the answers that most of you give, you are only repeating what you have been taught.
When I hear a sermon, I check out (like the Bereans)things for myself. Several times I have found errors in the sermon and have gone to the Preacher and things were cleared up.

Tish
you are correct in what you said.
We can talk up a blue streak to those in error, but unless we pray that the Holy Spirit intervine in their hearts, it will fall on deaf ears.

K.G.

"But Peter (cited above) forbids "private interpretation." Who can authoratatively interpret? Prophets and apostles. These are God's authorized spokesmen."


And when the prophets and apostles of today mis-interpret these the Scripture, to whom, then, shall we turn? Sorry, K.G., but I don't buy that.

When push comes to shove, standing before God we cannot state, "But my prophet (read pastor, elder, teacher, etc.) said it was this way." God will plainly tell us, "I gave you my word and it was your responsibility to read it."

Ultimately, we, individually, are going to be held responsible for any mis-interpretation. "Pastor John made me do it", will not carry any weight.

Animal
Jesus did NOT change the Sabbath day. Being the Lord of the Sabbath meant he was not restricted to the Sabbath laws, that they were a shadow of rest in Him. There was never "rest" day - a Sabbath day - for Christians. If you believe that, then I ask you to show it in Scripture. While Constantine may have declared the Christian day of corporate worship a day of state "rest," it was not a day of "rest" for the Christians in the same way as the Sabbath was for Israel. It was not called the Sabbath until Roman Catholicism took over after the fall of the Roman Empire, and then Roman Catholicism became the empirical church leaving the true teachings of Christ behind farther and farther.

The point I was making is that there is no Sabbath Day for the Christian or anyone else other than the Jew. The Sabbath Day was given as a sign of the covenant between Israel and God. THAT is what Scripture says. Exod. 31:12-17; Deut. 5:15; Neh. 9:14.

Legalistic denominations such as Seventh-day Adventists require Sabbath-keeping, but that is unbiblical. If someone wishes to do so as a preference, that is fine, but it should never be a requirement for the Christian, any more than circumcision. Both are signs of the covenants between Israel and God.

ConstantGardner and Animal
Part 1

The Church of Jesus-Christ of Latter-day Saints is the restoration of the New Testament church. It is built upon a foundation of living apostles and prophets with Jesus Christ as the chief cornerstone as Paul has said in Ephesians.

The keys of authority to receive the word of God and direct the affairs of the church were given to Peter on the Mount of Transfiguration.

Roman Catholics believe these keys of authority reside to this day in the Roman Catholic Church. Protestants believe this authority is received through the Bible.

Latter-day Saints believe the keys were taken up into heaven at Peter's death and Peter himself came as an angelic messenger and bestowed them upon the head of Joseph Smith in order to re-establish the true church of Christ prior to his Second Coming.

Only living prophets and apostles, whose calling it is to maintain a unity and purity of the faith, are authorized to speak in the name of the Lord.

People like Glenn will freak out at hearing these words and make an angry attempt to discredit what Latter-day Saints believe is the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

If you will make a sincere and honest inquiry, I believe you will find that much maligned "Mormonism" is more consistent with the Bible, both Old and New Testament, than any other way of being Christian

ConstantGardner and Animal
Page 2

Glenn is like Saul of Taursus before he saw the light, persecuting the saints. To Glenn, I recommend Gamaliel's counsel in Acts 5:38 (KJV). "Refrain from these men (Saints), and let them alone: for if ...this work be of men, it will come of naught: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God."

You will hear unflattering things about Joseph Smith (and some are true. Were Abraham, Moses et al perfect?), but I invite you to prayerfully investigate the Church as it stands in 2008 and see if in it reside true and living prophets and apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I believe the Holy Spirit will confirm that these men are true messengers from Father who are authorized to teach the true doctrines of salvation.

And happily, these teachings are exquisitely consistent with Bible. Out of the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses: Men called of God/Scripture/and the confirmation of Holy Ghost bear witness of one another.

May God bless you in your sincere search for truth.


K.G.
2 Peter 1:20-21 says exactly what Birdman states. It is about the origin of Scripture, not the interpretation thereof. If we as individuals cannot be trusted to search and understand the Scripture, then why were the Bereans commended for doing so?

There are no prophets or apostles any more. To begin with, Eph. 2:20 states that they were the foundation of the Church (with Christ as the chief cornerstone), and once a foundation is laid it is passed off to the builders. Secondly, prophets must never err and LDS prophets have never been right. Thirdly, the qualifications for apostleship are laid out in Scripture. The qualifications are:

Seen the Risen Christ.
Were personally taught by Christ.
Were divinely inspired
Performed miracles and signs that confirmed them.

These are laid out in Scripture. No apostle of the LDS church met any of these qualifications.

The LDS can't even get God correct so how can we trust the LDS with anything else?

Tish
I quite agree. Ananias and Sapphira made a covenant of complete consecration and broke their covenant, a capital offense.

In Malachi robbing God by not paying tithing is a capital offense.

The only point in mentioning them was to make the point this entire thread makes: The Bible alone is confusing and unclear as to the will of God concerning believers in 2008.

In my opinion, only living, authorized apostles and prophets can express the current will of God concerning His commandments.

What prophets and apostles of today?
"And when the prophets and apostles of today..."

Name them.



Glenn: There You Go Again...
Insisting that we believe in the God, Son and Holy Ghost of the creeds rather than of the Bible.

What happened to sola scritura/sola biblia?

And what on earth would have you believe that the living aposles have no seen the Risen Christ, were not personally taught by Him, are not divintely inspired or have performed miracles.

Paul was always a little defensive re: his apostalic bona fides since his Road to Damascus vision was a little different than the rest of the apostles. But he saw the Resurrected Christ.

Just as did Joseph Smith and others. It's you guys who believe Paul but reject out of hand the possibility of the same modern-day experience.


K.G.
I have never found the Bible "confusing and unclear." Perhaps you are so tied to your cult of LDS that you are afraid to search the Scriptures without THEIR interpretation. A good example is the two sticks of Ezekiel 37:16-22. The LDS says this is two books, the Book of Mormon and the Bible. But if you read the context without them telling you what it means it is about the two nations again becoming one. The LDS has to define each person/tribe as a book! No wonder it's confusing for you.

If "only living, authorized apostles and prophets can express the current will of God," then we are all in trouble since there are no "living, authorized apostles and prophets" in existence.

Thousands of "sects"
To be fair, one must remove all organizational differences first and focus on fundamental doctrine, also omitting the worship trappings that are religion, and not faith. One could score the "sects" that way and see what comes closest to a ten. Missing on a basic doctrine, such as the Trinity, for example, renders a group non-Christian.

K.G.
I did not insist you believe in the Trinity of the creeds, and, in fact, I only mentioned God the Father. You believe in a god who was once a sinful man who earned his way to Godhood and now resides somewhere in space near the star Kolob. The Bible teaches an eternal, ever-existing God who never was anything other than God and did not earn His way to Godhood, and that He lives outside His creation.

Neither Joseph Smith nor any other of your so-called apostles could have seen the Risen Christ because your doctrine and teachings about Him contradict the Biblical teachings about Him. IF J.S. saw anyone (which is doubtful since he changed his story so many times) it was of the demonic realm (2 Cor. 11:14-15). LDS "apostles" and "prophets" could not be personally taught nor divinely inspired by Christ because they contradict the Bible. If any of them performed anything that resemble miracles and signs, they were false and power received by the Devil because the entire LDS faith contradicts Scripture.

K.G.
The version you give is far different from the original version of what Joseph Smith gave. I suggest that you go to the BYU studies (I think it was either 1963 or 1968). Ask yourself this question. Why are there over 16 different accounts of the vision. I also ask this. How can a 14 year old boy run through the woods, jumping over logs, etc. with 240 pounds of gold under his arm? This is all in LDS history. Why has the Book of Mormon changed over the years. Pick up a copy of the original and compare it with the BOM of today. Not the same. I could go on and on with questions, but that would take up too much space.
The LDS 'prophets' are not to be compared to the prophets of the Bible. In the OT the prophets were sent usually for one reason, to warn of the coming destruction upon Israel because of their sins. If you check, you'll see that the NT prophet was lower than an apostle. They are always mentioned second on the list of gifts. The word prophet simply is one who speaks what God has already declared in His word.
Noy one of the so-called LDS APOSTLES even fit the rules to become one, at least not in the high position the LDS church puts them in.

glenn
Your criticism of the LDS faith lacks charity and is intolerant.

I note you are from Iowa.

Perhaps this was the same spirit that Huckabee harvested when Mitt Romney, an otherwise accomplished candidate, was defeated there.
Congratulations!!

You seem to know quite a lot about "Christianity". Perhaps you should read C.S. Lewis foreward in "Mere Christianity".

Thru and Thru
Since when is it intolerant to expose the differences between religious belief systems? Since when does one lack charity when exposing false teachings? Would you call Paul uncharitable and intolerant for exposing false teachers? He said to let them be eternally condemned! What about Jesus exposing the false teachings of the Pharisees? Was He also intolerant?

Rather than addressing the argument's merits, you marginalize it with claims of "intolerance" and "lacks charity." There was no meanness nor uncivil discourse in my charges against the LDS religion.

Perhaps Romney's Mormonism had nothing to do with his defeat, rather it was his pandering to the homosexual and abortion lobbies. OH, but if you can say it was because he was a Mormon that makes him a victim of religious discrimination. On the other hand, what is wrong with taking a person's faith into consideration when he is seeking the highest office in the nation? Would you want a Scientologist as president? If a person demonstrates a lack of judgment by falling for false religious beliefs that historical evidence proves erroneous, how can we trust his judgment on national security matters?

It seems to me your attack against me lacks charity and is intolerant!

In the beginning
KJV Holy Bible, Genesis 1:1: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

Joseph Smith, Original Prophet and founder of LDS and its sects, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 8: "In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concoted a plan to create the world and people it."

There does seem to be more than a slight difference between the Bible and the LDS Prophet.

thru and thru
I note you are from Utah. Perhaps that is why you push and promote Romney. After all, Joseph Smith once held the hope of being President.

However, if you wish to change the subject to Romney, you will have to explain the criminal and civil charges he brought on Bain Capital/Damon which ended in repayment of several million dollars to the government for overcharging Medicaid. Plus there are the cases of DDi and Ampad, among many others. Or, perhaps you had rather discuss his far liberal policies.

The mantra of the LDS is that Romney was persecuted because he is a Mormon. That convenience does not excuse Romney's lack of judgment in business. I will assume that you use it to explain it.

Arguing lack of charity against a cult that attempts to undermine the Christian faith is absurd. Typical, but still absurd.

False prophets
Jospeh Smith, Founder and Original Prophet of the LDS and all of its sects, History of the Church, vol.6, pp. 408,409: "I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the onlly man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-Day Saints never ran away from me yet."

It is interesting that Jesus, the Son of God, is grouped together with Paul, John and Peter as if they were of equal rank.

Is that due to the LDS belief that God was once man and man can become a god?

False prophets - cont.
2 Peter 2:1-2 "1. But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them - bringing swift destruction onto themselves. 2. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping."

glenn
"If any of them performed anything that resemble miracles and signs, they were false and power received by the Devil because the entire LDS faith contradicts Scripture."

According to your interpretation, sir.

Which of your 30 versions of the Bible does it contradict???

Romney: I am sure you will be delighted with an Obama presidency.

Thru and Thru
False miracles and signs are anything that do not point to Christ. That is not not my interpretation, rather that is biblical. The Bible says that there will be those with false signs and wonders. "The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan, displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refuse tolove the truth and so be saved." 2 Thes. 2:9-10

LDS doctrine contradicts EVERY version of the Bible in whatever language. (True Bibles, not cult translations such as Joseph Smith Translation or the New World Translation, e.g.)

Obamanation will be a worse president than Romney. But I don't have that choice. I always choose the lesser of two evils so anyone opposing Obamanation will be the lesser of two evils.

thru and thru
Glenn is not the one mentioning Romney. You started it. I was the one who said he is a lousy businessman in terms of his total lack of business ethics. He was a lousy governor, too.

Knowing that when anyone makes a valid criticism of Romney, you and your type start screaming about Huckabee, I will set the record straight here. It has nothing to do with Huckabee, or any other name you wish to call him. I was not a Huckabee supporter. While I am on the topic that you introduced, I will point out that Mormons raging about Huckabee and evangelists don't help your faith or cause one whit.

Scale back a tad?
Save the heavy denouncements for false teachers and those who sow chaos in the pew, that's my view.

Jumping up and down on the skulls of Christians who have not matured rapidly enough to suit you is going to get the church nowhere.

38,000 Christian denominations
38,000 Christian denominations
This is based on Wikipedia
They get the number from:
Christianity Today - General Statistics and Facts of Christianity

Number of Christian Denominations:
There are approximately 38,000 Christian denominations in the world.
Their source is Gordon-Cornwell Theological Seminary 2006

In my opinion this is out of disobedience to the scripture John 17:11 that Jesus clearly stated:
“That they may be one as we are one.”

He was referring to the Trinity, okay pagans were divided because all the gods of the nations and tribal deities were hostile to each other. Every story you read about the Greek or Roman gods they were all battling the other gods…

Christians must have unity because the Trinity has perfect unity has never disagreed about anything has never been hostile to each other…

There must be unity in our churches and in our marriages…

Denominations are like tribalism, and there is a line many cross by hostility to the two billion Christians currently alive and the however many that lived in history, that makes you a tribe, for example no longer using the Apostle’s Creed…

38,000 Christian denominations
All tribes (denominations) have some degree of ethnocentrism which Paul Hiebert in his book Cultural Anthropology describes:

“Humans are at the center of their own perceptual worlds, resulting in a basic egocentrism in which everything is judged in terms of the self”

“Ethnocentrism is when people look to their own culture, (group, tribe or denomination) as the most suitable or best and that others are less civilized… We judge other peoples’ customs as crude and they feel the same about ours”

I think every Christian denomination has this perception, which is obvious by the way you try to convert people from other denominations to yours, rather than just preaching to non-Christians. It’s obvious in the way churches divide and both groups think they are right and the other group is wrong, and they have long ago given up the authority of the Catholic Church to decide who is right and who is wrong. It’s also obvious in the way many post comments, that we are right and they are wrong…

The only thing that will slow down this drift towards tribalism is to impose the historic Christianity, which is the opposite of the current Cultural Marxist attitude that is everybody insisting nobody has the right to tell me or any body else what to do…

Call it tribalism…

Don’t call it Christian…

The post modern church
In the eyes of many men, pastors included, Joel Olsteen is a sucess and idol of young pastors all across the world. Pastor Olsteen, does not mention salvation, hell, or display a cross in the multi-million dollar T.V. church where he preaches to some 50,000 on a given Sunday. The thousands that come, hear what they like, soft, milk, not the meat of the gospel, in the feel good sermons. Is it any wonder that our nation is suffering from the illness or weak evangelism. We are not building Peter, Paul, types rooted in the holy word of God to carry on the message of Christ. If we simply preached the word, issues like the murder of the unborn, and the sillyness of same sex marrige, would go back in the devils closet.

K.G two posts
I don't know how I missed those but I must respond to your assertions about the LDS.

Firstly, in order to have a "restored" church, the original must have disappeared. We only have Smith's word that the original disappeared. If the original disappeared then Jesus must have lied when he said not even the gates of hell would prevail against it. I know, I know, the LDS have an explanation for that too. But there is an excellent saying in Christendom: If it's new, it isn't true; if it's true it isn't new. LDS teachings are things not heard of in Scripture nor in 1800 years of Christianity. That should say something.

As for the keys given to Peter, they were given to all the apostles (Matt. 18:18).

Peter could not have returned as an "angelic messenger" because angels are not dead people - they are a separate created species.

I don't "freak out" when hearing LDS lies. I am an ex-Mormon. I do not respond in anger, rather in love because I want the Mormons to be saved.

For Those Who May Wish to Know...
..the living apostles of the living Christ, you may find their names and biographies on lds.org.

To Glenn: When you say that "LDS contradicts EVERY version of the Bible," you couldn't be more wrong. Your hateful ignorance betrays you.

For those who quickly decide that Christ could not call apostles anew in the last days, your loss.

The contradictions and contention displayed on this blog prove that without an authorized spokesman and presiding officer of the true church of Jesus Christ, as was Peter, you will be ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. (2 Tim. 3:7)

Your choice.

K.G two posts part 2
A "sincere and honest inquiry" will PROVE Mormonism is a false belief system built on fraud.

It's easy to marginalize the argument against LDS as "persecution." But Paul was adamant about exposing false teachings. The LDS love to quote Gamaliel in Acts, but Gamaliel was giving his opinion, not speaking for God.

"Unflattering" things about Smith are in no way similar to things about Abraham and Moses. Smith was a necromancer and never quit dabbling in the occult. When he died he had a Jupiter Talisman on him. He was a profligate adulterer who needed a "revelation" to justify his sexual desires for other men's wives.

No true prophet or apostle resides in the LDS church. The Holy Spirt does not support them, rather the Holy Spirit exposes them for the fraud that they are.

chas, CALIFSON
Notice the first posting on this thread if you have a problem with how the postings evolved.

chas, do you consider it Christian to teach that God and Jesus are two separate people living in flesh and bone on another or other planets? And, do you believe the Holy Spirit is a totally different entity floating around as an etherial entity? Is that basic Christian theology? Is that what the Bible sets forth?

As to building Peter and Paul types, do you build them out of new interpretations or do you build them on the word of God set forth in the Bible?

theConstantGardner
If they were Christian they would not be trying to convert Catholocs and other Orthodox Christians...

Mt Rose
AMEN to posts 30, 31, 33

I sort of got the idea that you ain't too keen
on females in the pulpit. That makes two of us,
as far as I'm concerned it isn't scriptural.
I suppose I could change my mind when someone
answers how a woman bishop can be the husband of one wife..outside of my former church the Episcopal Church.

There will be no unity, because men mess up
everything bringing their version of their doctrines.

What is needed if we are to be the salt in this
culture is to begin with prayer; serious
deep and agonizing down on our faces prayer.
We need a third great awakening, and once that
occurs everything else will sort out because
we, His people have given Him control.

K.G again.
So now it's "hateful ignorance." Why is it hateful to expose the false teachings of Mormonism? It certainly isn't out of ignorance - as I said, I am an ex-Mormon and I can cite chapter and verse of all your teachings.

No contradictions?

The BOM at Alma 7:10 says Jesus was to be born at Jerusalem, while the Bible says Bethlehem. Smith made an error, but the LDS has claimed that Bethlehem is in the area of Jerusalem so that makes it okay. That's like me saying someone living in Rockford, IL is living in Chicago.

D&C 2:1 says Elijah will reveal the Priesthood, yet when one reads Malachi 4:5-6 we find no such thing.

D&C 35:12 says that "there are none that doeth good except those who are ready to receive the fulness of my gospel..." But compare that to Ps. 14:1-3 where we find NO exception.

D&C 49:8 says "all are under sin except..." but the Bible gives NO exception (Rom. 3:23)

D&C 90:9 says that the gospel will go to the Gentiles first and then the Jews, reversing Rom. 1:16

D&C 93:12-14 vs Col. 1:13-23, 2:9. D&C 93:29 vs Gen 2:7. D&C 98:8 vs Rom. 7:5. D&C 98:44 vs Matt. 18:22. D&C 107:49 vs Gen 5:23. D&C 130:22 vs Jn 4:24, Lk 24:39, 1 Jn 4:12, Col. 1:15, 1 Cor.15:50.

Too many more for here.

theConstantGardner
I am also talking about evangelicals getting Catholics saved...

We used to sing:

My faith has found a resting place
Not in device nor "creed"
I trust the ever living one
His wounds for me shall plead...

Now as an adullt I see it was a statement against the Apoostle's creed which I now think is essential...

Birdman II - Original Greek
A comparative compilation of the three oldest (known) Greek manuscripts can be purchased from Concordant Publishing Concern in Santa Clarita, CA.

theConstantGardner
I now think about the tree described in Romans by the Apostle Paul, aboout the Jews...

Something like the nations otr the Romans are a wild olive branch grafted into the tree...

Now think after two thousand years, the Jews were the root, the Roman Catholics are the trunk, like it or not, I am a little leaf at the end of a twig...


My only possibility to being orthodox is to honor the trunk and say it is the church...

If I do not honor the trunk I am just a leaf blowing in the wind...

chas
There are those in Roman Catholicism who are saved in spite of the Church, but most Catholics are Catholics and not Christian because they really aren't familiar with the true teachings of Christ. I have known many, many ex-Catholics over the years who will tell you that, and there are many, many good books available by ex-Catholics showing the problems. There are a lot of heretical and aberrational teachings in the RCC which should be exposed as such.

It isn't whether anyone in any denomination is saved, it is whether that denomination has false teachings that should be exposed. People can believe a lot of false teachings and still be saved. The essentials are the important things and if a person believes in the essentials of the gospel and who Jesus and God are, then that person is saved wether or not they believe Mary stayed a virgin or if she is the "Queen of Heaven," or even if they believe in purgatory (although I wonder how someone can truly believe the Gospel that Jesus paid for our sins and believe our sins still must be purged). A person can be saved and not believe in Hell. But we must agree on the essentials of the faith for salvation and all true Christian denominations do agree on the essentials.

Belief systems claiming to be Christian, such as LDS or Jehovah's Witnesses, or Christian Scientists, for example, do not agree on the essentials. They don't even agree with Scripture on the identity of Christ. It is these false systems claiming to be Christian who must be exposed to protect the innocent, and those in these systems must be taught the truth to bring them into salvation.

Other systems like RCC and SDA place their people in bondage to laws and these must also be exposed to free the sheep from such yokes of slavery.