Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Saturday, May 31, 2008
Doug Giles :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Detergent Church: Salt and Light or Slop and Tripe?
by Doug Giles
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Was the Copenhagen Global Warming Summit Walk-Out a Win for the U.S.?


Detergent Church

(di-tur-juhnt church)

- noun

A church whose sole purpose is to purge the skid marks sin has left on man’s soul and our society.

Biblical Christianity (operative word: biblical), lived and worked out in real time, has always been a life-stoking blessing in whatever land it took root (no matter what your long tooth lesbian Marxist professor says).

Historically speaking, when the church was healthy and righteous the nation it was in eventually prospered in muchos ways. However, when the “saints” started getting scripturally cross eyed, converted to the whims of culture and became lax in regard to God’s moral maxims, then what used to be a source of salt and light morphed into a font of slop and tripe and officially became a part of God’s—and that nation’s—problem. In my quasi-humble opinion that’s where I think a massive slice of the American church stands (or sits), namely in the way versus leading the way.

In last week’s column I tossed out my demented two cents/10 points into the thought fray as to what I think would help the church cease to stink and thus cause our nation to maybe, just maybe, continue to be the great experiment it is. Here’s a recap . . .

1. Get men who dig being rowdy back in the pulpit.

2. Could we have some sound doctrine, por favor?

3. Preach scary sermons (at least every fourth one).

4. Get rid of 99.9% of “Christian” TV.

5. Quit trying to be relevant and instead become prophetic contrarians, I’m talking contra mundus, mama!

6. Put a 10-year moratorium on “God wants you rich” sermons (yeah, that’s what we need to hear nowadays, you morons, more sermons about money, money, money!).

7. Embrace apologetics and shun shallow faith.

8. Evangelize like it’s 1999.

9. Push lazy Christians to get a life or join a Satanic Church.

10. Demand that if a Christian gets involved in the arts that their “craft” must scream excellence and not excrement.

Having covered point one in last week’s column, here are three more shots across the shoddy bow of the crippled church:

2. Could we have some sound doctrine, por favor? You won’t hear the book of Jude quoted by most postmodern pastors nowadays, but you will hear them discuss the song, “Hey, Jude.” Why? Well, because it’s cool, baby and the PoMo church is all about being cool! Oh, and of course, feelings. Nothing more than feelings.

So, why is sound doctrine being shunned in “churches” today like Jenna Jameson would be at a Jim Dobson BBQ? Well, it’s simple folks: truth divides. Truth will cost a pastor people, possibly his Porsche and . . . and . . . it might leave him . . . (I’m gonna say it) . . . unpopular. Many ministers fear unpopularity more than God.

Yep, for the sake of praise, pacification, and cash a lot of pastors/churches will prostitute their calling and blow off declaring God’s whole counsel because on the whole it’s costly. Therefore, for the bootlick church, it’s bye-bye to the real Christ and his hard sayings, adios muchachos to the acidic aspects of the apostles, and it’s “don’t let the door hit you in the butt” to the kill joy prophets.

The Detergent Church, however, will preach the truth, side with truth and defend the truth come hell or high water. They understand that their job is to herald what Christ, the apostles and prophets have declared and not take away from it or add to it. They do it with love and humility, when it is convenient and inconvenient, and they do it with unapologetic boldness and simply let the chips fall where they may. The Detergent Church is, in essence, God’s UPS men: They just deliver the package.

3. Preach scary sermons (at least every fourth one): Toady churches today won’t touch any scrap of the Scripture that paints their congregants (clients) as possible recipients of God’s wrath. Heck, to the hot tub church, God doesn’t even get angry anymore according to these peddlers of pleasantries unless of course one doesn’t recycle, or if you drive a SUV, or if you have a high view of Scripture, or if you hunt, or if you’re white, or if you’re proud to be an American and then, then, Yahweh goes Old Testament.

The biblical doctrines of man’s innate depravity, the heinousness of sin in contrast to God’s holiness, the commandment for all men everywhere to repent, the justifiable wrath of God upon the impenitent, and subsequent eternal damnation to those who have blown God off will not—I say, will not—get touched with a ten foot pew at Dr. Feelgood’s House of Worship. But they will get their due at a Detergent Church.

Yes, a Detergent Church will volley on a regular basis both the kindness and the severity of God. They won’t sidestep the fear of the Lord, the reality of hell, or the negative sanctions which come down on people and places because of disobedience. Sure, it’s not pleasant to read or declare such things, but the minister who’s worth his salt won’t run from these truths just because they rub us all the wrong way. The Detergent Church knows that if it sidesteps the stuff that shakes the sinner in their innards they’ll end up mothering people God hasn’t fathered and spawn a pseudo-saint who thinks God isn’t serious when he is.

4. Get rid of 99.9% of “Christian” TV: Very little of what passes for Christian television is either Christian or good TV. What does ecclesia electronica yield up to the general public when they fire up their Sony’s? Here’s what:

• Weeping pink-haired women with uber large lip implants

• Bizarre TV sets that look like Versace decorated them while tripping on a HGH/LSD combo

• Prophetesses with dragon nails screaming in tongues and prophesying pretty generic, failsafe stuff to poor dupes who just drove six hours to “get a word” from God.

• Rasputin-like healers in white Nehru suits with bad comb-overs and an entourage of yes men that makes Kimora green at the gills.

• Weepy metrosexual and heretical thirtysomething male preachers whose hair is so spikey the TSA won’t let them board airplanes.

• 21st century Elmer Gantrys making outrageous claims that if you give them a $100 check (or $1,000, or what the hell (or heck) $10,000) God will give you a yacht (or its equivalent).

And then . . . then . . . the Wizards of Odd wonder why the “world” rejects them. Are they being persecuted for righteousness’ sake? No, Ezekiel, it’s because of ridiculousness. It’s not that the unwashed cattle aren’t into God—they’re just not buying most of this smack. Hey Religious Television Nutworks, there’s a reason why Carrot Top and Gary Busey don’t get much airtime any longer. Do the math and then do us all a favor, por favor, and follow suit.

I believe that the rogue gallery that’s regularly propped up by evangelivision, y’know, the ones who make the characters in the Star Wars bar scene look like some of Trump’s execs, are part of our cultural problem rather than the solution.

It’s sad that the Christian leaders in the Detergent Church who actually have something to say don’t get any airtime just because they won’t dumb it down, or wear glitter in their hair, or a neckerchief or because they regularly think and blink.

The finale next week . . .

• Join Doug Giles and comedian Brad Stine this Tuesday, June 3rd, in Nashville at 7 PM for GodMen (for more 411 go to www.godmen.org). Also, check out Doug’s LATEST VIDEO: “Teach Your Kids How to Sense BS” and his interview with Benjamin Wiker author of the book “10 Books That Have Screwed up the World: And Five That Haven’t Helped” this week on www.ClashRadio.com.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
Doug Giles’ new book “If You're Going Through Hell, Keep Going!" is now available. Ann Coulter says "Doug Giles is a substantive and funny tour de force for traditional values.” Doug’s talk show and video blog can be seen and heard at www.ClashRadio.com.
 
TOWNHALL DAILY: Sign up today and receive Townhall.com daily lineup delivered each morning to your inbox.
dear greg,


Assuming the U.S. could follow your advice. Who gives you the sound doctrine you're going to revert to?

Is it Greg's doctrine according to the Scripture? Is it Parsley's? Is it a Penitential. a Pentecostal, a Moonie, an Adventist or the Plymouth Brethren ??? Is it the Catholic Church ?



dreadnaught
Like most things, true doctrine is still discoverable to those who care to look for it.

big religion
Since the beginning of time, big religion has been the greatest enemy of God---and so it is today. Christian TV, denominational hierarchy, and please don't forget christian bookstores; most of which are only cathedrals of vanity (What is next, Max Lucado autographed coffee mugs?) These "christian superstars" write 100 books each, while Almighty God wrote only One. The One we should be reading.
ms

How come?
How come Giles' Amazon book sales ranking is so abysmally low?

It's amazing how many
folks think that now they're saved, they're also unsung authors that the world is dying to hear from. Hence the trash that lines the Christian bookstore shelves. I haven't stepped into one of those places for anything more substantial than greeting cards for years. I haven't heard any good, theologically sound contemporary Christian music since Russ Taff came out years ago with his one hit "Unto the Lamb"-a short, sober, to the point piece sung minor key with a minimum of instrumentation which should be played every Good Friday and Easter Sunday.

Bring back Bach-that good old Lutheran. He could write music!

Definitely...
... slop and tripe.
Whatever it is you're selling, that is.

Shelama: How Come?
What difference does it make why Giles' Amazon book sales are so low? What does that have to do with the column?

Pilgrim said it best when he/she said "These "Christian superstars" write 100 books each, while Almighty God wrote only One. The One we should be reading".

Watchmen
PREACH ON !!! A MAN AFTER MY OWN HEART !! WORDS NO ONE WANTS TO HEAR ! They do not itch the ear. They are not enticing. I GREW UP IN A SPIRIT FILLED CHURCH WHERE THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD COULD BE FELT. Hard to find now. They gather for entertainment, and it is only a social event. THE FEAR (respect & honor) OF THE LORD IS THE BEGINNING OF WISDOM. I think about the scripture when it says "there must be a falling away first", and that "the judgment of the Lord will start in the house of the Lord".

Every time I see the selling of books, tapes and etc. on the church networks I think about Jesus going into the temple and cleaning house. I am afraid there is a house cleaning coming. Church is a place of business, not worship.

TO DREADNAUGHT: Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. ---JESUS SAID: IF YOU SEEK ME YOU WILL FIND ME. --It is better to have confidence in GOD than men. Your hope is in God through Jesus Christ. I pray you find the truth you are looking for.

Blow the Trumpet--we need more watchmen.

Christ and the Law,
Christ had no church. To understand the essence of Christian doctrine see Romans 7:6 and Matt 5:17-20 and the great conclusion in Rom 8:1-4;9-13!

Know the difference between the Law (Torah), the law of sin and death, and the great promise of the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus".



EWTN
I am a new Catholic who finds catechismal assistance and powerful homilies on the EWTN. Yes, there is a lot of content that does not apply to me, but I have never had the delusion that I am an avatar for the world.

I have doubts about the effacity of *scary sermons* -- people who watch the news or go to the movies are already surfeited with scary stuff and probably will not take it in. What I would like to see is more Bible study. There do not seem to be any around here.

Harsh Pastoral Reality
I agree with what you have said, but there is a harsh reality that goes along with it today. I preached such Scriptural truth for 30 years until I was "forced" into early retirement. Now I work a secular job while trying to find a church in which to just worship. I have given up trying to find a group of people who really want to be challenged to apply the truth Bible to their lives. BTW I served in the Southern Baptist Convention.

You tell 'em, Doug....
Like Ann Coulter, Thomas Sowell, Walter E. Williams, and a few others, Doug Giles has become a "must read" for me. I predict that sales of his books will increase dramatically as more and more people realize that he is a guy who really can and really does speak truth to power - and does so in a thoroughly entertaining way. It is a fact that the organizations currently and collectively known loosely as the Church of Jesus Christ need a massive application of holy detergent. We have no power to affect the world because we ourselves are filthy.

Sunday School
In my experience churches abdicated their critical role to all of us when they ran off “thinkers” or “thinking Sunday School classes” and opted to turn their churches into pure
“circles of love”. They were viewed as “hell raisers”, but they are the key to freedom and preservation of the country. They are the independent thinkers who dare to subscribe to and watch http://www.brasschecktv.com (or the Truth Seeker, or What Really Happened, or Patriots for Truth, etc.). Churches are a critical institution to checkmate the takeover of mainstream media and of our government. By permitting and fostering “thinking” Sunday School classes, they were the one remaining forum where the smartest independent thinkers could assemble and trade perceptions, concerns and needs. In the 1990s, many protestant churches declined in membership by approximately 15%. In my judgment, those were the thinkers; so now the only ones left are smug (nice people, my family too) ones who would never dare question mainstream media or government, or be interested in hard facts supporting anything if it did not come from their local paper or the New York Times. We are enslaved and churches should be excoriated for turning into institutions that refuse to permit the light of truth and justice to shine anywhere within their walls.

I loved “thinking” Sunday School classes, but they ran my class and me off. Even though I am son of Presbyterian minister (deceased) and Presbyterian elder, I no longer attend. Remaining Sunday School classes are pure brainwashed closed minds. Sad, when Presbyterian Churches were called “houses of sedition” by British in Revolutionary War.
Now they sit idly by while the biggest, most monstrous capers in history occur and continue, not even thinly veiled, and country is controlled by groups that literally aim to destroy country, but they do not read enough to know it. Mr. Giles is on to a good topic.
Thinking Sunday School classes are key to freedom.

Christian TV
Doug,

I agree with your analysis of most Christian TV.

One notable exception I wish to mention is Dr. James Merritt. Dr. Merritt would never be acused of being metrosexual and his sermons are strong in God's word.

He is on TBN.

Where Doctrine comes from
Hey Dreadnaught, Sound doctrine comes to us from the Holy Spirit through the Word of God. It's not from any one man, or organization.

Mr. Giles Love your style. I do belong to a detergent church, it's called the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, lcms.org

I have to agree
with Giles. Churches have become twisted in the name of popularity and money.

These mega-churches give me the creeps and I can't help but wonder if they are the false prophets we were warned about.

However, no matter what happens, it is nice to know that they cannot take the Bible and the solace it offers away from me.

Mainline is Counterproductive
The other day I was listening to Micheal Medved.
On his show he had an elder from the Mormon church discussing the growth of the church world wide. Let me clarify before I go on that I disagree with Mormon theology, but this is what I find interesting--The Mormon church has not tried to become relevant to culture in the way I see other denominations. From my association with Mormons that I count as good friends the church has stuck to its guns about the things it is for and against: family values, achieving excellence in all areas of life, modesty, not smoking, not drinking, homosexuality,etc. The church has chosen to reach out but not embrace the culture. Yet, the church is growing. Doesn't this fly in the face of what most of our mainline denominations are doing? They have in some cases wholly bought into the culture and their church memberships are shrinking. Maybe folks do not like the way Giles is expressing the truth, but it is the truth the church needs to hear.

Good Fight of Faith
Has been given issued a Knock Out from the Public Arena.
The Church World has conceded the Fight is over.
Now they support the World Champion, Government over God.

For most of these worldly church's, their prayer is not for courage to Fight the good Fight of Faith, but how to please the secular Government.
Can anyone imagine that when The Apostle Peter was commanded to stop speaking and praying in the name of Jesus Christ in Public, he being obedient to that unlawful order?

Church's do this today though, even when there is no law against prayer, anywhere in either the Federal Government or a State Government.

Giving heed to some man sitting on a bench who issues illegal orders, and God and the Constitution.



Correction
Giving heed to some man sitting on a bench who issued an illegal order, Against God and the Constitution.

The Weapons of our Warfare
Have been layed down by the Leaders of the Christian Church's today, and they have signed a peace pact with the world, and just shut up and given up their Liberty that comes only from God and not Government.

Bowing to the gods of government no different than the ancients of the world who looked to their kings and priests for their liberty, and not to the Lord.
The only source of Liberty there is.


What stops the 10 Commandments
From being displayed anywhere in the United States of America?

NOTHING but a group of NON government lawyers, called the ACLU.

Who decide who gets Civil Rights in America today.
They have decided both sodomites and pornographic speakers and promoters have the right to freedom of speech, just not anyone who would dare feel free to Worship or Praise Jesus Christ in any public place.

And the church world gives these enemies of God and the Constitution heed and obedience.

Through the power of Courts, have taken over the Legislative Powers from Elected Representatives.

Both Church's and elected officials bow to their threats, illegal threats the issue of money gives them.
The true god of America today.
Money and Pleasure.
Forsaking the God of our Fathers who would have hung these reprobates.



Giles
"Demented" is right. What a pest!

Point 3: The prototypical scary sermon
Jonathan Edwards, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/edwards/sermons.sinners.html).

Edwards gave this sermon in 1741, and from what I've read, it literally scared the hell out of a lot of people.

Edwards probably couldn't get a pastorate nowadays.

when man thinks he knows


It only took a few posts to see. False doctrine abounds, yet calls others to follow. It claims to be sound doctrine.

Otis says Christ had no Church. Enough said.

Neon thinks he spots sound doctrine merely by reading. I suspect Greg also thinks it's picked up solely in Bible study. (He's in one of the 28,000 denominational sects. Reading his Bible; and teaching his biblical wisdom?)

I recall Rev Jim Jones being associated with the Bible communities of America. Very fond of quoting Scripture. He poisoned 900 "believers." The David Koresh; who got it from the Bible He was Jesus Christ; his followers worshipped Koresh (Branch Davidians.) Or Oral Roberts. He was told by a 900 foot high apparition of Our Lord to raise some number of millions soon; otherwise he'd die. He sold that to his friends. A typical Bible Christian. We have approxinmately 29,000 sects in the country today; professing to understand what the Bible teaches.



man's biblical doctrine, continued
-
Here's my point, bear with me, Friends:

At the beginning, 33 A.D., only one Christian Church was extant; spreading the Holy Gospel. The Catholic Church. Beginning with Peter & the apostles of Jesus Christ.

No New Testament Bible at the time; but the Holy Spirit was with her and (gasp) Rome.

Read the first few lines of Paul's epistle to the Romans. In there is Rome's (the eternal city) significance for all the ages;

"I give thanks to my God through Jesus Christ for you (ROME) because your faith is proclaimed all over the world."

That's in the Word of God, Neon.

Pope Benedict in his visit to our country is living proof that the Catholic faith is still CHRIST'S SOUND DOCTRINE, acknowledged all over the world. As Jesus promised. ("--You have not chosen me; but I have chosen you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain," ) (John 15 :16) He spoke to our Church started by the apostles. (Your Church and mine!)

Notice He never prophesied a day when His Church would be "reformed" into Protestantism and sectarianism. He says she would "remain" to the end of the world.

Yet THEY told you to find your sound doctrine in a Bible privately; without the apostles and their Church.

Just food for thought, my brethren. Hear it, Greg Giles.



I'm very, very sorry


I said Greg Giles. Forgive the slip, DOUG

You preach a Church
Has replaced Jesus Christ. You are wrong.
--------

dreadnaught writes: - 2:41 PM EST
Subject: man's biblical doctrine, continued
-----
ts:
This is the only thing you do.
You preach the Catholic Church is what saves men.
Making yourself a false prophet and a liar.
Any man, anywhere on this planet has access to God through Jesus Christ.
Not your church.
-------


dreadnaught writes:

At the beginning, 33 A.D., only one Christian Church was extant; spreading the Holy Gospel. The Catholic Church. Beginning with Peter & the apostles of Jesus Christ.
-----
ts:
We still have them with us today and you reject.
For a church house and a pope.
Religion, not God.
You are part of the problem yourself and not a worker for the Lord, whatsoever.

Peter Marshall
in his sermon, John Doe Disciple seems to have been prophetic when he preached this sermon, not sure when, but possibly in the late '40's

"At the moment, we are in a period when church membership is socially acceptable and on the rise. It is not hard to decide for Christ so long as He stays safely in the pages of the New Testament or smiles at us on a Sunday morning from a stained-glass window.
But as materialism and secularism accelerate, our civilization may yet, in our time, go full circle.
In that case, we may see a new conspiracy against God, a modern versions of Christian persecution, even of Christianity having to go underground." Pg. 89,90 John Doe Disciple

A few years following Dr. Marshall's death, LBJ in an effort to prevent a rival from challenging
him politically, tied an amendment to a bill.
This bill prevented any organization that held a 501 3c tax exempt status (something his rivals
organization had) from "electioneering". If caught the IRS would remove their tax exempt status. And the church meekly allowed this
travesty to stand, just as the church allowed
black robed tyrants to expel God from school (resulting what passes for public education 40 plus years later), 1973 passively allowed (with some exceptions) human sacrifice in the form of abortion, all the way to partial birth murder, that a current presidential candidate supports and defends), and same sex marriage.
The church is more terrified of losing it's tax exemption, thus $$$$$, than it is of Almighty God. Prior to this law, (which no subsequent Congress has ever repealed, including our '94 Republican takeover Congress and/or President) the American Church was holding our society accountable.


Bulldog 74, et al
"Edwards gave this sermon in 1741, and from what I've read, it literally scared the hell out of a lot of people."

Jonathon Edwards was a theologian/philosopher (and president of Princeton) whose chief life-work was to synthesize the ideas of John Locke to Christian theology, much the way Thomas Aquinas synthesized Aristotle to Christian thought.
Locke was a Puritan whose new philosophy was based on the idea that human beings are born with brains which resemble blank slates, 'tabula rasa.' Locke argued against prior philosophers who believed that men are born with 'innate ideas,' ie, notions about God & life which are present at birth. (Predestination.)
Locke's re-definition of "human understanding," for Edwards, meant that 'knowledge' of God has to be shaped through an 'experience' of God.
Edwards, being a minister, applied Locke's philosophy to his preaching. He hit on the tactic of 'scary' sermons as a means of providing what he thought was an 'experience' of God... "scaring the hell out of them"... and thus leading the listener to a true, sensory knowledge of God.

Locke's ideas about how human 'understanding' works have long-since been discarded. No one now believes that the only way to knowledge, esp knowledge of God, is through the senses. 'Scary sermons' are as primitive a religious tool as witchcraft trials.
Edwards also believed in witches, as did Locke.

The promises of Christ and our Church


I tried in only two postings, to ask serious questions; of people who sincerely love God; WHO has long-since given the world sound doctrine? It came from some authority.

It's not for me to shoot down the denominations of this era; though I COULD bring myself to do so. It was DOUG GILES, above-- who laments a watered-down, irrelevant, or unsound doctrine among "believers" /

I merely took him back to the place sound doctrine started. It wasn't Germany or England. It's not Plymouth Rock, not the American south, or Utah.

It was Jerusalem, 33 AD, and within less than a century, Rome. From there into the whole civilized world, excluding China. Impartial investigation will show the Holy Bible itself is just ONE work, inspired by the Holy Spirit, of the same Catholic Church Paul was so pleased with in his epistle to the Romans. (Rom 1, 7 to :9)

We live today in this society called Christian and extolled by a majority in America, as the Religious Right;

Yet it has NOT followed sound doctrine. It comes based on the teachings of men only-- the so-called Reformers of the 16th century.

They were called heretics once. THEIR doctrine is passed on in today's fractured denominations, based on Sola Scriptura; Bible -only teaching.. This is what causes you to splinter into countless sects. It gives rise to hundreds of appalling, senseless churches. --Jonestown Colony, Branch Davidians, and so many more. With only their faulty interpretations of the Bible to guide them. Doug Giles himself is here today lamenting the divisions caused by false doctrine.

I only followed suit. Sound doctrine is alive and well; as it will always be. In the Catholic Church.

.

Wow
Lots's of stuff to look at.

1. Lepanto, I never heard of Dr. James Merritt, but it he isn't a heretic, what is he doing on the heresy network TBN? That network is mostly Word of Faith heresy, and anyone good should not be giving credence to that station by appearing.

2. Jeff said Mormons have never tried to stay relative to the culture, but history shows different. They dropped active polygamy, they allowed blacks into the priesthood, they changed the temple ceremony, and now even change their claim about Indians being from Jews, all because culture attacked these beliefs.

3. Contrary to the new Catholic, Dreadnaught, Romanism is not 1st or 2nd or even 3rd century Christianity, rather it is a corrupted version that left the true faith behind for papist decrees. You will find none of Marian dogma in the first couple centuries, nor will you find purgatory or indulgences and a host of other man-added ideas. Try a good book called, "The Gospel According to Rome," by ex-Romanist James G. McCarthy, or Ron Rhodes' "Reasoning from the Scriptures with Catholics" for starters.

pb
pb,
Actually, I've never been one for "religious experiences" myself...I think it's a dangerous thing to base one's faith on emotional highs and lows. And it's wrong to try and bring people to faith by manipulating their fears or messing with their minds.

Nontehless, I'll still maintain that there's something to be said for "scary sermons." My own journey to faith came, in part, from "having the Hell scared out of me"...not really in the emotional sense, but by the sober realization that I was never going to make Heaven on my own merits.

My own observation is that much of the challenge tht the Church faces is that the whole idea of sin and judgment and hell have gone out the window. Kind of hard to convince people they need the Great Physician when they're not aware that they're sick.

Dreadnought
While my Protestant heritage goes back a long way--our ancestors in Europe proably didn't get along--I've never had a grip against the Roman Catholic Church, and without trying to sound flippant, I think Pope Benedict is a great guy. I even looked at some of the history & doctrines of the Catholic church to see if maybe that's where I belonged.

What decided me to stay in my faith was some of the Church's rites and traditions that I just can't reconcile with Scripture--not to get into a whole theological debate, but just one example, I can't see the Biblical justification for praying to Mary or the Saints.

sequel
It is interesting to read other views, and I most identify with Talent Scout and Tea Party.
If churches welcomed back “thinkers”, their rolls might swell 10 or 15%, but I believe and assume they would not make any converts to their “perspective.” There might be mild discomfort in just over-hearing thoughts or ideas. However, that was reality for most of my lifetime in very healthy churches. More importantly, I believe that that separate group would change reality, the news that you read and hear, the injustices that occur, and turn the tilt of this country from evil back to good. The difference is between truth and slavery, subjugation and intimidation with no voice (in church, media or government) versus leaders that share your values, peace and justice versus mass murders via nuclear weapons or evil use of our Haarp system to create earthquakes or tsumanis and the like; it is the difference between a solid culture with sense of hope and contribution and one of fear and regression and dread

Everybody has a part to play, whether they be defender, prosecutor, peacemaker, farmer, school teacher. So when one part is silenced or negated or ferried away for torture, everyone suffers because they will come for you next. Suppression of truth is a fraud, and churches are not doing their part. They did and do not have to change any views, only welcome many of the best and brightest of their community, but they have been intimidated and keep them away. Mainstream media and your government no longer speak the truth. Of all the people in your community relative to all of the great issues of our time, only this group is speaking truth.

I believe that churches should love truth and justice, and righteousness, not facilitate or overlook evil. Thanks for reading.

to glen
The LDS church has made a limited few changes. However, the changes you refer to are as a result of REVELATION brought before the ENTIRE church for sustainment. The changes to the temple ceremony had nothing to do with the ordinances, of which if you are not LDS would know nothing about. The change from polygamy is very simple. God can direct things that will benefit the church. As in the Old Testament, polygamy came and went, so to in this last dispensation. I give Wilford Woodruff all the credit in the world. He had to go before God with a serious problem for the church. Had God not re-directed the doctrine, Utah would not have become a state and the people therein would most likely have been killed and the Church destroyed, as almost happened in Ohio, Illinois and Missouri. Polygamy helped the church survive the MURDER of many fathers and the death of many men in the trek west. It served its puropose. Allowing blacks to hold the priesthood was also a revelation. History shows that in the beginning of the Church, some blacks were ordained, however, that practced ceased due to the discrimination of many in the Church and taught by leaders. It took time, but God righted the wrong in 1978. These are poor examples to bring up as changes being forced. Think about it, over 150 years of existence and you give 3 examples of change, none of which changed the church's three fold mission. Declare the Gospel, perfect the Saints and redeem the dead. These core principles have not and will not change. Whether or not you believe in the Church is irrelevant, as far as modern Christianity is concerned, one only need to study a little history to see how almost every denomination has caved on MAJOR issue, the LDS church, by in large, has held firm to the rock, the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Right! Open Your Bibles - Read to learn!
Pretty much on the ball, man.
Some of your tormenters ask how anyone knows what is right.
Read yours Bibles and study as if you want to find out. Ask God for wisdom and guidance. Have the passion of the Great Commission, and a compassion for a world lost in its own 'slop and tripe'.
The Bible gives an account of our beginnings from the font of God's Being in His grace and creativeness.
Read a humble contribution in the book "The Covenants in Creation, the History of Salvation, and the Continuing Significance", and think about the question some more. Such books as Giles' and this, unfortunately don't become best sellers. But we have a respoklnsibility to tell it how it is and warn of the coming doom.
BruceAust

scripture, doctrine, and Catholicism...
The Bible says:
"For there is one God and ONE mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men..." I Timothy 2:5 (one mediator -- and it's not Mary)

Referring to Jesus: "There is NO salvation in anyone else, for there is NO other name in the whole world given to men by which we are to be saved." Acts 4:12

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through FAITH -- and this not from yourselves, it is the GIFT of God -- NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8,9 (emphasis mine)

The RCC denies this by claiming that the Catholic Church (and its necessary sacraments, meritorious masses, church membership, purgatory, indulgences, and baptism is "necessary for salvation" (846 Catechism of the Catholic Church) and claiming "the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims" (841).

Catholicism's teachings do not stand up to the light of Scripture; in fact, the RCC is in many ways directly opposed to the Word. The above is just the tip of the iceberg.

correction of parentheses par.4
The RCC denies this by claiming that the Catholic Church (and its necessary sacraments, meritorious masses, church membership, purgatory, indulgences, and baptism) is "necessary for salvation" (846 Catechism of the Catholic Church) and claiming "the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims" (841).

LDS changes
Jeff, please do not tell me I was never a Mormon. I was indeed and you have no knowledge to suggest otherwise. I was baptised a Mormon in November 1970 and Became a Christian in January 1974. I can cite chapter and verse from the BOM, D&C, POGP; I have three feet of shelf space of LDS publications and I have Gospel Link with all its pubs. I have authoritative LDS stuff.

The manifesto stopping polygamy was not a revelation, and it was for political expedience. D&C 132 still demands polygamy for reaching godhood. Brigham Young stated the blacks would never receive the priesthood until all whites destined for it had it, yet due to discrimination complaints against BYU a "revelation" was suddenly received. The temple ceremony changes were to delete all the Masonic ritual stuff out of it, and the later deletion of the "protestant" minister being a tool of the devil was deleted, both deletions due to exposure of such nonsense in culture.

Polygamy was instituted because Joseph Smith was caught in adulterous affairs. It was only for the sex, it was not about taking care of women. Smith was practicing "polygamy" (adultery) in Ohio, and it was officially instituted among those in the know while in Nauvoo, long before any trek west. It was a main reason for the split of what became the RLDS because Emma wanted to blame Young for polygamy.

LDS theology has no resemblance to the original 1st century church.

Whew! Thanks Chatfield...
for clearing up how clearly UNbiblical the LDS is. I was afraid that would go unchallenged.

1st amendment
I wish someone would tell me where it says separation of church and state? What it does say is that the govt shall not interfer with the FREE exercise of ones religon!

dreadnaught
You are worshipping the church instead of God. You must be born again, you must be born again, verily, verily I say unto thee yee must be born again. Peter cannot save. Paul cannot save. Read what they wrote to you. The Truth that they write to you as witnesses to His resurrection from the dead. That is what saves. That is what redeems. Jesus redeems. Jesus is the redeemer. Churches are made up of fallen man. Are you saying Paul was not a sinner. That Peter was not a sinner. Are we instructed by Jesus to worship sinners. Are we instructed anywhere to worship a church.

dreadnaught
You are worshipping the church instead of God. You must be born again, you must be born again, verily, verily I say unto thee yee must be born again. Peter cannot save. Paul cannot save. Read what they wrote to you. The Truth that they write to you as witnesses to His resurrection from the dead. That is what saves. That is what redeems. Jesus redeems. Jesus is the redeemer. Churches are made up of fallen man. Are you saying Paul was not a sinner. That Peter was not a sinner. Are we instructed by Jesus to worship sinners. Are we instructed anywhere to worship a church.

Let Me Clarify....AGAIN!
I specifically said in my first post, "Let me clarify before I go on, I disagree with Mormon theology." What part of "disagree" do you not understand? My point was to use the Mormon church as as example of a denomination that in its daily functioning appears to be fairly traditional and not trying to be "hip." The Mormon young men who show up at my doorstep still wear a white shirt and tie not shorts, T-shirt, and a nose ring. If conventionality is so out-dated, why is this denomination growing? I agree with Doug Giles. So much of what he cites is the church's desperate attempt to be "relevant." As he points out with appropriate sarcasm, the church ends up ridiculous. Again, "I do not agree with Mormon theology," nor do I deny its history. That wasn't the point of my post. My point is if embracing our modern culture is so effective in reaching folks and/or shaping the culture, why is a church that is still "conventional" in its approach reaching people not only here in the US but around the world?

Dear Glen Chatfield:

Many good souls love Jesus and will be forgiven for losing the Catholic faith; strange as that may seem. Jesus died for love; He desires our undying love. He can be generous to the extreme with those who truly love Him.

My faith lives in accord with His apostles' teachings only. You may judge me member of a "corrupt" Church for following apostolic doctrine, it won't shake my faith. Jesus prophesied plainly that false prophets would come. They would undermine His teaching. He is never wrong.

His ONLY Church was built on Peter, -- the Rock __HE__ named. Jesus gave His promise: this Church would never fall to the gates of hell; and He never promised it to the "reformed church." Nor to some denominational Bible believers.

As for being near or far from the Bible in doctrines, it's quite the same story (for me and every faithful Catholic.)

We learn our faith from the Church (Marian or any other truth) it's every bit as t authorized by Christ as any passage in the Bible; since the Bible proceeds from that Church. The Church does NOT have to come out of the Bible. It has its origins in Christ who founded her (Matt 16:18) . Scripture substantiates this. It was to be everlasting.

Whatever we're taught by her is discerned and upheld by the Holy Spirit. Just as what was written in the Scripture is from Him. Not the other way around. She alone is His Teaching Church; with His authority. We were given the Bible; but He authorized no one to teach (or learn) by Bible alone. It would've been absurd, after founding His Church. You can search the Scriptures forever. Nowhere is it written we have to learn our faith from the Bible and only the Bible.

Mr. Giles
"A detergent church whose sole purpose is to purge the stain left from sin on man's soul and society."
The Church's purpose is to tell people about who Jesus is and what He has done and then to obey the statutes written on our hearts which can only be done because the Holy Spirit is within us as believers. It doesn't do any good to tell a non-believer that they must obey God's statutes. THey will not enter heaven through obedience. They will only enter heaven through faith in Jesus and what he has done. They will only be changed by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Reply to Joycey:



She says,

"You are worshipping the church instead of God."

Reply: That's a lie. The CHURCH worships God. I worship Him in His Church. Is that so complicated for you to see? God DWELLS in His Church.

"You must be born again, you must be born again, verily, verily I say unto thee ye must be born again." ...... Thanks; I am baptized in Christ's holy faith. Born again by water and the spirit. So are you, I assume.

"Peter cannot save. Paul cannot save."

Reply: Explain why you think Catholics believe such falsehoods. I never believed Peter and Paul are saviors. Peter--Paul--and I, --WE believe in one Savior; Jesus Christ. This is the inerrant teaching of the Catholic Church, where we WORSHIP Jesus as the only-begotten Son of God. This Church taught all Christians from the beginning; JESUS is the Son of God Our Divine Savior.

Do you have a problem with that? Joycey. --? Soytainly you understand plain English?

Try not to put words into the mouth of a Catholic. Nobody worships God's Holy Church. His Church is our sheepfold, with our shepherd Peter. God lives with us; Emmanuel. Jesus makes Himself present for his people upon the holy altar in every Eucharist. That is a divine TRUTH. Find it in John 6: 54 and Matt: 26 :26.




Glenn Chatfield
How does one get to chat (no pun intended) with you other than here at TH when the chaos of comments diminish the opportunity to have a conversation (not an argument or debate)?

answering an "American Mom"
Dear Mom:

I saw what you said about the Catholic Church. I must assume you're very serious. The fact you're mistaken 100% about the Church is due to your faulty Christian upbringing.

But, I forgive you. You've only believed what false teachers taught you. A very small part of what they taught you is true; since they didn't cast away ___ ALL ___ the truth taught by Christ's apostles. Only most of it. The Catholic Church keeps ALL the truth the apostles taught over our last 2,000 years.

You may not realize it, but YOUR own ancestors were Catholics. You are a descendent of Catholics who were loyal to the Pope. With their Pope, they learned the Gospel as the apostles passed it down. Later they were taken away from their faith by heretical teachers calling themselves "reformers."

Now you listen to self-ordained ministers; and THEY all descended from Catholics.

Isn't it ironic; today you told lies about the very Church your blessed ancestors believed as she taught them the Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ! Our host here; Doug Giles-- is also a descendent of faithful Catholics! Hey! You can't make these things up!!!! They're TRUE !

dreadnaught
The RCC teaches that Christ is brought down by priests to be bodily present in the eucharist during the mass to be re-presented a sacrifice for sin, the ingestion of which imparts a partial amount of saving grace to the partaker. It is taught to be the perpetuation of Christ's sacrifice on the cross, making Christ present in His death and victimhood, and is to be worshipped as divine.(Catechism of the Catholic church 1373-1377, 1374, 1377, 1392, 1405, 1419, 1085, 1365-1367, 1378-1381, 1323, 1382, 1353, 1362, 1364, 1367, 1409)

The Bible teaches:
Christ is bodily present in Heaven. -- "But when this priest (Jesus) had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy... And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin." Hebrews 10:12, 13, 18

God forbids the worship of any object, even those intended to represent Him. (to avoid typing lengthy passages, read Exodus 20:4,5; Isaiah 42:8)

- cont'd. -

dreadnaught - cont'd. -
Christ has ordained every believer to a holy and royal priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices, the praise of their lips, and lives yielded to God. (I Peter 2:5-10; Hebrews 13:15; Romans 12:1)

The sacrifice of the cross is a historical event that occurred once, approximately 2000 years ago, outside Jerusalem. (Mark 15:21-41)

The sacrifice of the cross is finished. (John 19:30)

Christ cannot be made present in His death and victimhood, for He has risen and is "alive forevermore" (Revelation 1:17, 18; Romans 6:9, 10)

Christ presented the sacrifice of Himself to the Father "once at the consummation of the ages" (Hebrews 9:24-28)

The once-for-all sacrifice of the cross fully appeased God's wrath against sin. (Hebrews 10:12-18)

Believers receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure in Christ through faith. (Ephesians 1:3-14)

The sacrificial work of redemption was finished when Christ gave His life for us on the cross. (Ephesians 1:7; Hebrews 1:3)

Jesus said...
"It is finished." But the word he used in the original language was a word used back then to describe a completed transaction, meaning literally "paid in full".

I appreciate your responding to my post, but you must notice that you've neglected to address the verses cited which contradict official RCC teaching. Catholics cannot honestly accept RCC dogma and uphold Scripture as God's Word at the same time because of these contradictions.

These are not the contrivances of a new denomination. It is God's Word.

Jesus said...
As he died, "It is finished." But it is also important to note that in the original language, the word Christ used was an accounting term that described a transaction as "paid in full".

Dreadnaught, it is important that you read your Bible. I appreciate that you have taken the time to respond to my post, but you have neglected to address any of the scripture references that clearly contradict RCC official teaching. What I've listed is not the teaching of a denomination of man-made religion, but is the Word of God. Read it for yourself.

Upon close examination, one cannot honestly accept and uphold Catholic dogma AND the Bible. There are too many contradictions. Please read the references I gave. God does not hide Himself from those who earnestly seek Him.


Sorry for the double post 52, 53
I was sure that the first one didn't take, but then I guess it did after all.

Must go for now
but I'll try to check this thread again tomorrow.

God bless.

Shelama
You are entitled to your opinion. I think I've heard your opinion several times before. Now I am beginning to wonder why you get so annoyed by others in their debates. What draws you to these discussions?

Bulldog 74 at #32 & #33, part I
Much of the discussion here reminds me of something Mark Twain wrote somewhere, about a character in one of his stories as looking "as out of place as a Presbyterian in hell." You are right. There are no atheists in foxholes.
I have questioned this column in the past about the use of the singular 'the Church,' in reference to Protestantism in the US. There are some 20,000 denominations... and as I have pointed out, any attempt to get them all on the same page is a bit like trying to herd cats. (In contrast, Cardinal George shut up Pflieger with a phone call.)
As to Scripture: the earliest extant fragments of the Bible have been dated to the 4th Century. What we have is a translation of a translation of a translation... ad infinitum. The idea that an untrained reader could approach the text & ascertain from it the true word of God dates to a 14th century movement in England called Lollardy. I just don't sit comfortably with the biblical certitude of the guy next door. I'll put my trust church that's been at it for 2000 years & that in fact formulated the text.

Bulldog 74 at #32 & #33, part II
On another point, it seems to me that if you believe in Heaven then you must also believe that some souls are there now in the Divine Presence. I figure my mother is there. I figure, too, she does what she can on my behalf when she can. So I might find occasion to 'pray' to her, asking for ‘intercession’... in effect saying, "Hey, Ma! Go talk to the Big Guy about this one, will you?" I realize nothing in the bible supports that belief, but it just makes sense to me and I don't need scriptural assurance to go ahead & do it.
Lastly, I tend to go with Jewish theology in the way it teaches that we can never 'know' God. Consequently, I get real uneasy around preachers who say that they 'know' His Mind; or around 'Christians' who say they have a 'personal relationship' with Jesus Christ. To me, the only palpable thing that Christ left behind is the Catholic Church & its sacraments. And to me, people like Giles are silly in comparison.
If nothing else, the RCC does not require that I go to 'scripture' to work out my own salvation, or church-shop until I find a pastor who can scare hell out of me.
Gives me time to focus on other matters.
Good luck on you own journey.

re: First Amendment
airplanebob: "1st amendment
I wish someone would tell me where it says separation of church and state? What it does say is that the govt shall not interfer with the FREE exercise of ones religon!"

First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Look at those first ten words: This means that indeed the government shall not interfere with the exercise of one's religon.

Shelama
# 4
>How come Giles' Amazon book sales ranking is so abysmally low? <

Maybe because it is so painful to read his adolescent writing.

I do think there should be more fire and brimstone in the churches though. The honesty about the true contents of the bible so often is what turns intelligent evangelicals to atheism.

Stuart

Shelama
# 4
>How come Giles' Amazon book sales ranking is so abysmally low? <

Maybe because it is so painful to read his adolescent writing.

I do think there should be more fire and brimstone in the churches though. The honesty about the true contents of the bible so often is what turns intelligent evangelicals to atheism.

Stuart

Caligula
>First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Look at those first ten words: This means that indeed the government shall not interfere with the exercise of one's religon.<

The first 10 words are the ones that protect us from religion. The NEXT six guarantee freedom of religion. The next 10 after that are what so many religious folk would like to quietly bury on many occasions when the first 10 are asserted.

Stuart

Stu
Would you please re-read the First Amendment? It means that Congress shall not use its power and by extension our tax dollars to establish a STATE church, such as both England (Anglican)and Germany (Lutheran)have. (It's worth noting that in both instances those churches are dead in practical terms.) Colonial churches were once supported by tax dollars, but when it became clear that favoring any one doctrine over any other (as would eventually occur) would present problems, the idea was scrapped.

More to dreadnaught...
More than one pope vacated "Peter's throne" when killed by a furious husband who caught him in bed with his wife. Even Catholic historians admit that many of the popes were among the most inhuman monsters to walk this earth. In Vicars of Christ, Jesuit Peter de Rosa reminds us that pope after pope engaged habitually on a grand scale in wholesale mayhem and murder, pillage, rape, incest, simony and corruption of the worst sort. Their evil lives are a blot upon the pages of history. It is a travesty to refer to such shameless perverts and master criminals as "His Holiness" or "Vicar of Christ" as they all are in official Roman Catholic dogma and documents.

Even if the popes had all been paragons of virtue, it would still be a mockery to claim that they represent an unbroken chain of "apostolic succession" back to Peter. It was long the custom for the popes to be voted in by the populace of Rome, which had its own selfish reasons for desiring one candidate above another. Such a majority vote could hardly be called "apostolic succession" and, in fact, is not acceptable by Rome today. Some popes were deposed by angry mobs protesting their unbearable evil. Others were installed and/or deposed by kings and emperors. Political expediency along with the wealth and influence of the candidate as often as not determined who would be pope.

Christ is the Rock
God himself is clearly described as the only unfailing "Rock" of our salvation throughout the entire Old Testament. As for the New Testament, it declares that Jesus Christ is the Rock upon which the church is built and that He, being God, is alone qualified for that position. The rock upon which the "wise man built his house" was not Peter but Christ and His teachings (Mt 7:24-29). Peter himself points out that Christ is the "chief corner stone" upon which the church is built (1 Pt 2:6-8) and quotes an Old Testament passage to that effect which Christ fulfilled. Paul also calls Christ "the chief corner stone" and declares that the church is "built upon the foundation of [all] the apostles and prophets" (Eph 2:20)a statement which clearly denies to Peter any special position in the foundation.

Salvation per God's Word
When the Philippian jailer asked, "What must I do to be saved," Paul said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved" (Acts 16:31). He didn't say, "...and thou shalt begin a long process of involvement in sacraments administered by an elite priesthood that, hopefully, will one day get you to heaven." Salvation/justification/redemption take place once and for all when Christ is truly received as Savior and Lord and the sinner is born again of the Holy Spirit into the family of God. Until then one is not in the family of God, no matter to which church one belongs, be it Protestant or Catholic. Yet the RCC insists that all Catholics are "in the family of God" because they have been baptized.


Why should things be getting better?
The gist if this article is so familiar and so false. Back in the day, the day wasn't so great! It's so easy to look back and think "wow, back then people had their theology all in a row" and "back in the day, there was so much more morals". It's really false. What previously passed for morality was many times a looking good cover up "A pharasaical presentation of self righteousness (not God's righteousness)" Probably as many people then as now truly understood the Gospel (which has nothing to do with what I do for God, but what He did for me on the cross "It is finished".) It's just that now we have the 24 hr. newscycle, communications are off the charts. We see things we didn't before. Is it worse? Yes, because morals have diminished. But morality was never the problem to begin with. Knowledge of who we are and what the solution is was always and still is the real question. Jesus Christ saves, and only He saves. And that doesn't necessarily mean that a "moral" person is the one who represents that. Legalism is still an issue as much as licentiousness.

At least Mormons are logical ...
They claim Christ came to America centuries ago and that the Book of Mormon was dictated by an angel to Joseph Smith.

Doug and company claim to be "Christians" in numerous denominations that were founded more than a millennium after the time of the Gospels.
Where's the "true doctrine" there, Giles?

Dear American Mom


This thread's giving me a tough time. I see in the red type on top, you've posted some words for me to read. But I can't access anything right now. All I can do is go to the end and post. I can't see your last posts.

If you have great differences with me, I'm not surprised. You're one of millions of good souls who have been sold the false doctrine called Sola Scriptura. It's not a biblical truth yet it's the only manner of debate known to Bible Christians. That isn't your fault. You believe in the Bible alone as your rule of faith.

Therefore all anybody says is either true or false according to what you discern in the Bible. If you misconstrue something in there; you fall into error. (This is human wisdom.) Christ knew this could happen; and that's why He left an everlasting, infallible Church. The Catholic Church can't teach error because the Holy Spirit counsels her (John 16, :12 to :14).

So, we see a roadblock to any real dialogue; I'm not bound to that rule. I've only done my best to explain the truth to you & the others here.

dreadnaught
I do hope that you are able at some point to read the posts I've made and do some biblical research.

It is a circular and deceptive problem to say that the Church gives authority to Scripture. God's Word needs no man to give it authority. It is it's own authority and carries its own power, apart from the approval of any man. In the beginning was the Word... Read Genesis. It does not read -- In the beginning was the Church.

If you find that there are contradictions between Scripture and RCC dogma, then it is unconscionable that any reasonable person would take the side of the RCC dogma OVER the Bible itself. You are trusting eternity to what someone has told you, when you ought to be trusting what God Himself tells you in His Word.

The stakes are too high.

Mom, Dear


I marvel at the ease with which you dismiss RCC dogma;

as if your private interpretation of a text is more reliable than a 2,000 year-old -- ( and counting) universal Church founded by Jesus. I realize you and 100,00 Bible Christians are capable of interpreting from Scripture EXACTLY where Jesus was born (Bethlehem.)

But in any difficult matters, you would need the actual interpretation given by an apostle or those who later became his disciples, to settle it. You haven't any apostle. You have ministers who have abandoned the Church of Christ's holy apostles. They're FREE-LANCERS at a mission not even assigned to them. Who assigned them? Luther? He started as a Catholic priest. Henry VIII? He was a blood-curdling murderer and a heretic. Your ministers learned what theology they understand from that source. And they sold it to you.

In fact; going back in history before them, YOU have blessed ancestors now in heaven who believed all the doctrines of Catholicism. YOUR personal Catholic ancestors! That was in an age when reading Bibles was impractical at best; most Christians were illiterate. The Church is our only authentic, Christ-appointed Teacher. All sectarians are pretenders. They don't preach a full Gospel given us by Christ's apostles. But Catholics have it. Not because we're saints; but because the witnesses of Christ who raised up the Catholic faith were saints.

Take a break Dreadnaught...
American Mom's is spot-on.

Talking about being "spot-on," THANKS Doug Giles for another great article on the sorry condition of so many of our churches. Keep the articles coming. I'm looking forward to them

gahotdog:


I'd like to know what item pushed by Mom was spot-on. She's not much of a communicator. But we all have our opinions; that's what makes this a Toon Hall.

It just happens the lady says I chose a "dogma" over God's Word.

Jesus Christ founds a Church in which His followers are assured of having all the truth; infallibly. He ought to know?

Then comes a Baptist minister. his version of the truth contradicts the Church Jesus founded. WHY?

Merely because he reads the Bible. His private interpretation of the texts leads him to ignore the teachings of Christ's apostles.

Soon he's in Jonestown, Guiana. Nobody there doubts that when he reads them the true Bible wisdom; it's Spot On.

He has 900 of them drink Kool-Ade laced with poison. Is the Bible as he reads it a rule of faith? Is he getting such interpretations from any of Christ's apostles? What kind of truth was he teaching out of the King James I edition?

Not all ministers are Jim Jones's. But all of them say they understand all that the Bible teaches; Above all-- don't be a Catholic. If you'd asked any member of the Jonestown Colony their opinion of the Catholic Church; all would've rejected her authority. Same way the Branch Davidians, and the Haggee flock, and your church. They live willingly in the dark.

dreadnaught
Open your Bible and read it. Anyone reading it honestly and inductively and prayerfully will understand it. You seem very confused. I am Catholic. Raised Catholic. Baptised as a baby. But I did not believe until I was in my early twenties. At that time I was redeemed and became a citizen of Christ's kingdom. I went to church every week, I attended Catholic School but was not a believer. I was not saved. I was not redeemed until I believed. It is a gift from God so that no man can boast. All of these cults you have mentioned have nothing to do with Christian/Catholic Faith. I have studied the Bible with many Catholics and Baptists together. All believers. Not just members of a Church. Jesus redeems. No one else. I mentioned Peter and Paul earlier because they were some of the first believers. They were the earliest Church members. But they cannot redeem. The Truth was given to them and they wrote it down and we have the actual words that they wrote. If you go to Revelations and read about the first established churches you will find they were not perfect. John wrote it. He was the apostle that Jesus loved. He wrote it while on the Isle of Patmos.

Wow
What a great article - thanks, Doug! And just look at the thinking and debate that it has sparked! Awesome.

Just remember, Mom, Joycey, Dreadnaught... we're not enemies. "All who name the name of Christ shall be saved..."

Dreadnaught, I'm sorry, but you also have fallen victim to some of man's teaching. I'm not 100% Sola Scriptura, neither am I Mormon. I am a follower of Messiah Yeshua, who walked the earth three hundred years before there was a "Catholic" church. "Catholic" is a Greek term, not a biblical or inspired term, coined in the 4th century when the church was formed. It was created when the Roman government realized their fierce opposition couldn't stop the church from growing and formed their own, requiring that all "Christians" register in Rome in order to "freely" practice their faith.

BTW, "Peter" is an English mis-translation. Yeshua (Jesus) said to Simon, "...your name shall be called Caipha (meaning small, throwable stone), and on this Petra (meaning large, imovable rock) I will build My church" He did not rename Simon "Petra". He named him Caipha, signifying that he would be a small part and that the church would be built on this greater revelation - the fact that Yeshua is the long-awaited Jewish Messiah, through whom ALL can be reconciled to Adonai.

Dreadnaught...
You still have neglected to address any of the Scripture that refutes RCC official teaching.

You say that we as non-Catholics have no apostle to tell us what to believe/how to believe/how to behave...

Read Galatians, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Romans, Hebrews, etc...

These are the apostles' own words to the very first churches of believers in Christ. Why do you trust another man to tell you what the apostles' themselves are telling you by divine inspiration from God?

You may continue to ignore what the Word of God says, but it will be to your peril.

Jesus said that in the end many people would say, "Lord, did we not do many good works in your Name?" (in an effort to gain His acceptance), and He replies, "Depart from Me, for I never knew you."

The Bible teaches that false teachers would rise up among the believers, leading many away, even the very elect. We are exhorted to search the Scriptures daily to see if what we are taught is true. THis is why God gave us His Word -- to ward off these false teachers. Why else are we to equip ourselves with the Sword of the Spirit (the Scripture) Ephesians 6:17? Because it is "living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart." Hebrews 4:12

Tuesday AM, Dear Joycey:


Just saw your last post. It's typical of the "saved" type found in almost every denominational sect. All of you go along with the perceived truth of the Bible. Even fallen away Catholics. It's mostly a watered-down version of that first Lutheran mistake; "faith alone." Naturally you hold this doctrine, false though it is, as a great spiritual discovery. So did all the heretics.

They then dispensed with every sacrament except baptism; no longer had obligations to God; you sang songs and clapped hands and paid lip service. The Church of your ancestors was cast aside.

Jesus only founded ONE Church. You don't belong to her anymore. The churches in Revelations are not autonomous sects in Christianity, the way you worship now. The were all mission outposts of the ONE Catholic Church. Right away we can see; your scriptural discernment is faulty. You say "churches." You make no provisions for living your lives as true believers; because most of your belief is man-made. Christ's provisions, not man's, are within the Catholic fold only.

His only Church. That's the one you seem to have abandoned. I'll ask one question, Joycey:

Why did you leave the Catholic faith? Give the real reason. Don't tell us because you "believed." I BELIEVE everything every taught a Christian in the Bible. You couldn't have discovered anything I didn't first find in the Catholic Church. (EXCEPT ERROR, which you found outside.) Maybe you didn't "see " it. but the whole truth is there. Whereas; in the denominations, a great part of the Holy Gospel is NOT TAUGHT the "believer." Many parts of Scripture are ignored or distorted, to fit your sect's preconceived faith.

Tuesday, My friends in Christ


Very good post by pb from WA.

I also enjoyed reading Phanerosis of the Spirit.

Phanerosis seems to be a Jew, Messianic as they call themselves. That's great. Its VERY true, we aren't enemies at all.

Christ is a Jew; most of the early Church is made up of the Jews, as would naturally have be the case. Phanerosis; DO investigate the Catholic Church; you won't regret it. If it's available to you on Dishnet see EWTN, an excellent Catholic TV channel. To answer any question you might ask. Please see how truly prophetic the Old Testament is; as it's fulfilled in the Catholic Church.

To my Dear American Mom; I must be blunt:

I read the Holy Bible. You misinterpret a great number of important passages. As long as you cling to those erroneous teaechings of sectarian denominations; be they Baptist, Methodist, Adventist, Jevov Witness, the whole range of evangelicals, or the major protestants; you won't understand the Catholic faith. it will remain for you a mysterious figure. But by seeing it impartially; going to the sources where you find them; and giving God a chance; you can reach understanding and then faith. Bible study will really be rewarding for you then. I consider you WELL WORTH conversion. I believe God truly loves you.

To Phanerosis:


You said:

"Dreadnaught -- Messiah Yeshua, who walked the earth three hundred years before there was a "Catholic" church. "Catholic" is a Greek term . . . coined in the 4th century when the church was formed."

Phanerosis; You're reciting false ideas promulgated in the 16th century by heretical rivals of Christ's Church. That charge had NEVER before been made.

The 16th century "reformers" did this very malevolently; since they all came from that very Church; they rebelled against the Pope. They knew when the Church started. NOT--->

"It was created when the Roman government realized their fierce opposition couldn't stop the church from growing and formed their own, requiring that all "Christians" register in Rome in order to "freely" practice their faith."

REPLY: NO, that's a falsehood of heretical rivals. --Rome was converted quite swiftly; way previous to Constantine. In the 4th century he, a pagan; converted to our Catholic faith. What you call "fierce opposition" was full-scale persecution of the Church much earlier.

By 64 AD, Rome's faithful worshipped in secret. Christ's Church was already growing rapidly by about 58 AD, in Rome.

At which time Nero was Caesar, and many saints were martyred. The only thing that transpired in years following -- a name for this faith entered common use: Catholic, or, Universal in Greek. It was the same Church founded by Yeshuah; to whom HE sent the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, 33 AD.



conclude to Phanerosis
-

bout 80 AD they started to call it the Catholic Church of the apostles. --It is called so today. It never changed since the event of Acts, chapter 2.

I visited Rome last year. I saw the catacombs where they were all entombed; and the Colosseum where so many died martyred. Peter and Paul the apostles were two of them.

There is no city more Catholic. In it were those holy people whom Paul addresses in Romans, 1 :7 to :9.



Preaching the Truth
Unfortunately, many churches today are afraid to do so and it is refreshing to have Doug write what many of us are thinking. Unfortunately, in our world today, it isn't popular to say something cherished by someone else isn't true, but Jesus and the apostles had no trouble with that. Jesus made the Jewish leaders mad by calling them white-washed tombs while the apostles made them mad by proclaiming Jesus as God, crucified by those Jewish leaders, but resurrected to reign forever in Heaven. Later, my spiritual ancestors, the anabaptists (as in Waldenses Confession in the 11th Century) made the RCC mad by noting that what they read in the Bible didn't line up with the traditions of that megalithic organization. The RCC launched a persecution that drove the anabaptists up into the Alps, but they didn't die off. Other early reformers followed who noted many of the same discrepancies between the Bible and church tradition. They received the same treatment, or worse, were burned at the stake for questioning man-made authority with inspired Scripture. Luther made the RCC mad more than 400 year later when he asked to discuss some discrepencies between church tradition and Scripture. For his effort, he was excommunicated without any debate. Maybe if the RCC had talked with him reasonably and reformed itself to the Scriptural standard there would have been no need for the Protestant Reformation. The First and Second Great Awakenings followed times when Christians had become lax in the study of the Word and they were characterized by renewed interest in the Bible for personal study and life application. Are we there yet in our own time? It's hard to know for sure. I hear a call for a Third Great Awakening and there is a massive explosion of evangelical Christianity in South America, China and Africa, so maybe .... Messages like Doug's are trying to shake us to wake us, church. Time to rise and shine!

Experience of Christianity
Experience is never a good standard for spiritual doctrine because Satan can so easily fake our experiences and our emotions. Our faith must be based upon reasonable examination of the Scriptures, using that little-used organ for most modern Americans, the brain. Certainly, we can learn from others, what they've learned from the Bible and how their experiences have validated the Biblical record. Experience has a place in the Christian life. It can validate what the Bible says we should believe. For example, Christians experience God has a triune Being -- one God acting in three capacities. The Bible infers the doctrine without fleshing out the details, as if tri-unity was something the New Testament writers took for granted. They KNEW Jesus was God; they KNEW the Holy Spirit was God. They were (mostly) monotheistic Jews who believed passionately that God was One, yet they recognized that Jesus and the Holy Spirit were part of the One God. The Christians I've talked to will tell you they KNOW this through the testimony in their heart as well as from the Biblical record. Experience is a poor foundation for doctrine, but it is a good validation of the foundational doctrines found in the Bible, so long as you're willing to always check your experiences against the Bible and adapt your interpretation of experience to match the Bible. We don't tell God Who is is; He tells us and we agree.

dreadnaught
James 1:5...
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to *all men* liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

I John 5:13...
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may *know* that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

dreadnaught
II Timothy 3:16,17...
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

dreadnaught
Hebrews 9:24-28...
For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another-- He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.

dreadnaught
I am grieved that you will still not address any of the scripture that I have posted which are in direct conflict with RCC official teaching.

Pray to the God of wisdom who promises to give wisdom to those who ask; search your heart and ask to receive the Holy Spirit's guidance -- God Himself.

For those truths which are plainly written, as the ones are which have been posted above, take their meaning as plainly as it is given. There is no mystery in it.

Truth is not something that needs to be protected -- only loosed/unleashed.

Dear Aurawatcher


I love your post, I sympathize with you. Let me assure you; we'll all be together in the last days.

"Maybe if the RCC had talked with him reasonably and reformed itself to the Scriptural standard there would have been no need for the Protestant Reformation."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Please; there is no "scriptural standard" that anyone ought to use to justify rebellion against the Catholic Church. Yes; those were brutal times. Many faithful Catholics were also martyred.

That's gone now. You need your rightful heritage. That's the doctrines of Christ's holy apostles. There are no substitutes. Pray to the Holy Spirit for FAITH. Not the faith taught by men; the True Faith.

"The First and Second Great Awakenings followed times when Christians had become lax in the study of the Word and they were characterized by renewed interest in the Bible for personal study and life application." REPLY:

Forgive me, but nothing you read in the Scriptures (from Christ) indicates that our sole rule of faith is Bible study. We are told to love one another in His CHURCH and obey God's commandments. Nothing at all about any "reformation" brought by men. That's the language of MEN, not God. Men don't reform what God gives them. That was the sin of Adam and Eve.

dreadnaught says...
"the doctrines of Christ's holy apostles"

and yet persists in wholly ignoring what the apostles themselves have written, favoring instead what is written in the catechism.

The Catholic Church teaches that the pope's word is truth:
"The Supreme Pontiff, in virtue of his office, possesses infallible teaching authority..." (Canon 749, Code of Canon Law 1983)

The Bible teaches that every word of God is true:
Jesus prayed to God His Father, "Consecrate them in the truth. Your word is truth" (John 17:17).


A few nore...
Good Article...

I would add to the list...

11.) Demand that our pastors are educated in a solid Christian Seminary. It's nice to have ministers who actually know what they are talking about.

12.) Get rid of the "altar call for salvation". This is the worst invention that the evangelical church has ever come up with. Altar calls don't save anyone, but instead have decieved millions.

Answer American Mom:
Her quote: "The Bible teaches that every word of God is true:"

Reply-- So does the Catholic Church.

"Jesus prayed to God His Father, "Consecrate them in the truth. Your word is truth" (John 17:17) . . . Go on to:

Same chapter, verse :20 / "Yet not for these only do I pray, but for those also who, through their word are to believe in me."

Jesus meant the succeeding disciples in His holy Church. They were all the later-appearing bishops of that Church, Mom.

He says in Matt, 18 :17; ". . . Appeal to the Church, but if he refuses to hear even the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and the publican."

I Timothy says the Church (there's only one) is, the "Pillar and mainstay of the Truth." (1Tim, 3 :15)

We all realize, who have no bias against her; this means the Catholic Church. Who brought us all the Word of God selecting the canon of books making up our Holy Bible.


Furthermore, American Mom:
You make my point here:

"The Catholic Church teaches that the pope's word is truth:

"The Supreme Pontiff, in virtue of his office, possesses infallible teaching authority..." (Canon 749, Code of Canon Law 1983)"

It's CHRIST who tells you this; and the Church has to believe it, since He can neither deceive nor be deceived. This is why it's in the catechism.

The Pope is Peter's lineal successor in this world. That's his "office," he is assigned the same authority (truth) that Peter received from Jesus; "I will give thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven (true in Christ's place at the right hand of the Father Almighty) and whatever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven --" or, WON'T be true in heaven. Matt, 16 :19 /

This is in our Holy Bible, Mom. The words of Our Holy Redeemer!

The right interpretation


American Mom is smart, going o the passages of scripture for her arguments. Now, we should look at how she interprets some of these. Because she disagrees with Catholics about the sacrifice of the Mass, she says:

" . . . because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy... And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin." Hebrews 10:12, 13, 18--

How does that figure next to Paul's first epistle to the Corinthians?

"For I myself received--FROM THE LORD-- verse :24: "This is my body which shall be given up for you; DO THS--(offer me) in remembrance of me;," --Verse:25, "This is the cup of the new covenant in my blood; --DO THIS, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me. --Verse:26, "For as often you as you shall eat this bread and drink this cup you proclaim the death of the lord until He comes."

Verse :27 "Whoever eats this bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty of the BODY and BLOOD of the Lord. --Verse :29, "eats and drinks unworthily, without distinguishing THE BODY, eats and drinks judgment to himself." (1Cor 11 :2 t 29.)

Mass makes Jesus' sacrifice PRESENT before God our Father in heaven. That one Paul speaks about in Hebrews; taking place on Calvary in one event; it's the one, eternal sacrifice that can't end in time.

You also see it prophesied by the Old Testament prophet; Malachi: Chapter 1 :11 / --We see it in the sacrament; on our altar before Almighty God-- and certainly worship. Not just "an object, Mom. It's Christ Himself!

Here is the Catholic Church's teaching; and remember-- Paul received it himself from the LORD, Mom. You're contradicting both Paul and the Catholic Church, as well as Jesus Christ.


dreadnaught...
Okay, here's an example of where the RCC and the Bible are at odds.

TRUE or FALSE:
Mary is the person through whom we gain access to Christ, and thereby, God the Father.

ANSWER:
In more than one place, the Bible expressly forbids trying to communicate with the dead. Furthermore, it repeatedly confirms that Christ and his Holy Spirit are our intercessors to the Father.

"There is one God. There is also ONE mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, Himself human, who gave Himself as ransom for all" (I Timothy 2:5-6).

"There is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name in the whole world given to men by which we are to be saved" (Acts 4:12).

"The {former} priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the {sins} of the people, because this He did ONCE FOR ALL when He offered up Himself. (Hebrews 7:23-27)

"In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints (all believers) according to the will of God" (Romans 8:26-27).

dreadnaught
You cannot ignore the Hebrews passage.

" . . . because by ONE sacrifice he has made perfect (NOT -- GOING to make perfect) forever those who are being made holy... And where these have been forgiven (NOT-- GOING to be forgiven), there is NO LONGER ANY SACRIFICE FOR SIN." Hebrews 10:12, 13, 18--

"For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, 'This is My body, which is for you; do this IN REMEMBRANCE of Me.' In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, IN REMEMBRANCE of Me.' For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes" (I Corinthians 11:23-26).


dreadnaught --cont'd.--
The Gospel of John records seven figurative declarations Jesus made of Himself: "the bread of life" (6:48), "the light of the world" (8:12), "the door" (10:9), "the good shepherd" (10:11), "the resurrection and the life" (11:25), "the way, the truth and the life" (14:6), and "the true vine" (15:1). He also referred to His body as the temple (2:19).

It is stated that the "eating and drinking" in verse 6:54 and the "believing" in verse 6:40 produce the same result - eternal life. If both are literal we have a dilemma. What if a person "believes" but does not "eat or drink"? Or what if a person "eats and drinks" but does not "believe?" This could occur any time a non-believer walked into a Catholic Church and received the Eucharist. Does this person have eternal life because he met one of the requirements but not the other? The only possible way to harmonize the interpretation of these two verses is to accept one as figurative and one as literal.

No where in the Bible do we ever see a miracle performed where the evidence indicated no miracle had taken place. Yet, after the priest performs his supernatural act of transubstantiation, the wafer and wine look, taste, smell and feel the same. It has the appearance of a counterfeit miracle because no noticeable change has occurred. When Jesus changed water into wine, all the elements of water changed into the actual elements of wine.

The Law of Moses strictly forbade Jews from drinking blood. A literal interpretation would have Jesus teaching the Jews to disobey the Mosaic Law. This would have been sufficient cause to persecute Jesus. The Bible says that Jesus came, not to do away with the law, but to fulfill it.


dreadnaught
The Bible teaches:

Christ is bodily present in Heaven. -- "But when this priest (Jesus) had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy... And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin." Hebrews 10:12, 13, 18

dreadnaught
Consider also that literal transubstantiation would make Christ subject to every priest on earth, under obligation to come down to the altar at the priests' command.

Also, when John 6:53 is interpreted literally it is in disharmony with the rest of the Bible. "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you," gives no hope of eternal life to any Christian who has not consumed the literal body and blood of Christ. It opposes HUNDREDS of Scriptures that declare justification and salvation are by grace through FAITH in Christ.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

dreadnaught
The Jews were familiar with "eating and drinking" being used figuratively in the Old Testament to describe the appropriation of divine blessings to one’s innermost being. It was God’s way of providing spiritual nourishment for the soul (Isaiah 55:1-3; Ezekiel 2:8, 3:1).

When your words came, I ate them; they were my joy and my heart’s delight, for I bear your name, O Lord God Almighty. (Jeremiah 15:16)

dreadnaught
As we worship Christ, He is present spiritually, not physically. In fact, Jesus can only be bodily present at one place at one time. His omnipresence refers only to His spirit. It is impossible for Christ to be bodily present in thousands of Catholic Churches around the world.

Jesus began the discourse by saying whoever comes to Him and believes in Him will not hunger or thirst. Thus the eating and drinking are symbolic of coming to Him in faith.

Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. (John 6:35)

There is another serious problem for Catholics who insist on a literal interpretation. They must realize that after they have consumed the physical body of Christ, it then decomposes during the digestive cycle. This goes against God’s promise to never let His Holy Son see decay (Acts 2:27).

Furthermore, Acts 1:9-11 says that Jesus will come back in the same way He left, not many billions of times in the form of wafers...

"And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in JUST THE SAME WAY as you have watched Him go into heaven."

That is, visibly and in the air.

Later dreadnaught...
Gotta go for now.

Dreadnaught
I will respectfully disagree. We as Christians are called to obey God rather than man. This means that if the traditions of our church do not line up with the Bible, we are supposed to reform the traditions of the church to match what the Bible teaches. To do otherwise is rebellion against God.

What you are asking us to do is to deny the validity of the Bible in order to live in disobedience to God's word by following RCC tradition found nowhere in Scripture.

Don't you think there might be a consequence on Judgment Day if we knowingly disobey God?

It's in the Scripture

But you don't believe.

OK, you're not receptive to the Word of God; since all you can answer is "The Jews were familiar." This is the same conclusion all agnostics and atheists argue with people of faith: the Bible was written by old men who used it to manipulate the people, not by God. Why? Because agnostics and atheists are opposed to faith.

The proof Jesus didn't speak "figuratively" is easy. Those disciples in John's gospel narrative who came at Him with "This is a hard saying; who can believe it?" John, 6 :54 / would rather have stayed with Jesus. They loved Him. They had SEEN Jesus work great wonders.

He was quite understanding of their scepticism. It would have been simple; just CLARIFY to any doubters (they were already disciples,) "Hold on! I'm speaking figuratively; don't get me wrong. Don't go!"" Instead, He allowed them to take it seriously and literally; WHY? Because He meant every word literally.

second installment,
Continued:

Literally; just as Paul, in 1 Cor 11 is speaking about this transubstantiation that takes place in every Mass; Christ coming down to us from heaven in a sacramental manner; truly present. Under the APPEARANCE of bread and wine. (That's apostolic teaching of the Catholic Church. Learned from Christ by the apostles; a major part of the Holy Gospel.) Remember; Christ is GOD; for God nothing is impossible.

It requires FAITH in His words. Not everyone has that faith.

Note how from the beginning of His public ministry, Jesus kept emphasizing one thing: FAITH. Faith enough to move a mountain. To believe. He already foresaw that when He gave the believer His own Body and Blood to consume; only on that kind of faith would he/she believe Him literally. So, He demanded unwavering faith. ALWAYS, not just when a self-ordained minister allows you. READ THE BIBLE !

Every non-Catholic can quote the words; "Believe on Jesus and you will be saved." But as His word becomes too CATHOLIC for your comfort, you say good-by to the faith.

dreadnaught says...
**Every non-Catholic can quote the words; "Believe on Jesus and you will be saved." But as His word becomes too CATHOLIC for your comfort, you say good-by to the faith.**

By that same token, when someone quotes something that is too biblical, you (Catholics) say good-bye to the Bible.

You should be terribly disturbed at how easily you dismiss Scripture.

RCC vs. God's Word
More examples:

Jesus made it perfectly clear that there is only one way to the Father. He renounced any other means of salvation when He declared, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me" (John 14:6).

Again, the Roman Catholic Church does not receive these words of Christ as binding authoritative truth. The "infallible" Pope John Paul II rebuked Jesus as "the only way" by declaring the Kingdom of God is for "all who seek God with a sincere heart, including those who do not know Christ and His Church" (VIS 12/6/00). The Catholic Catechism teaches: "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims (CCC, 841). The Catechism also renounces the words of Christ by stating; "Those who do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience those too may achieve eternal salvation" (CCC, 847).

RCC vs. God's Word
Jesus declared: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). The way to be born again is "through the living and abiding word of God" (1 Pet. 1:23).

When one, who is dead in their sins, looks into the word of God, enabled by the Sprit of God to trust the Son of God, they become a child of God. Yet, it is interesting to note, this essential requirement (from Christ's own words) to be "born again" does not appear in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

RCC vs. God's Word
Catholics who pray the rosary by reciting repetitious prayers to Mary are disobeying the words of Christ on two accounts.

He said when you pray, pray to the Father (Mat. 6:9). And secondly, He said, "When you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition, as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words" (Mat. 6:7).

RCC vs. God's Word
Jesus said, "You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only" (Mat 4:10). Yet Catholic priests are taught to disregard what Jesus said by declaring: "devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship" (CCC, 971).

The apostle Peter spoke of the importance of heeding the words of Christ over anything else. He said, "You shall give heed in everything He says to you." Those who fail to do so will be "utterly destroyed" (Acts 3:22-23). The words of Christ bring knowledge of the truth and the power to set sinners free from the bondage of sin and religious deception (John 8:31-21). His words also bring salvation to those who believe them and condemnation to those who reject them (John 5:34). Those who are allowing extra-biblical teachings and experiences are nullifying Christ and His Word. Anyone who "strays from the truth," must be turned back because a sinner who turns "from the error of his way will save his soul from death" (James 5:19-20).

please, Mom
Your final posts are a rambling confusion with a few lies thrown in. I expected you to fight fair.

The Catholic Church is PERFECT; since Jesus Christ gave her life. Yes; she' filled with imperfect men and women who don't always exemplify the correct Christian. That's why God has given us PENANCE; so we have a chance to make amends. To REPENT.

The Catholic Church has made thousands of her children SAINTS, as well. Martyrs and saints all over the world.

Where YOUR idea of a church is out to lunch about sin. You never see any danger in a sin; because you "FEEL" saved for the rest of your lives. Truly awful!

No single accusation you've just made is true. You ought to know the Catholic Church is totally convinced of the truth contained in the Holy Bible.

I only today listed the many passages in which we Catholics give reverence and obedience to God's Word in the Scriptures. It's not enough to show you the passages where you've lost the truth. You think by spouting, "GLORY TO THE BIBLE, DOWN WITH CATHOLIC DOCTRINE ! that frees you of all error?

Sorry. Your false doctrines are RIFE; in every department of the faith. You don't even know what Christ commanded of His followers. May He forgive your obstinacy and pride.

dreadnaught
It's unfair to cite the Catechism of the Catholic Church and Pope John Paul II alongside Scripture chapter/verse?! It's unfair to cite contradictions between the RCC's official teachings and the Bible?

How is that unfair?!

It's unfair to actually PROVE in the RCC's own words that they have abandoned what the Bible says?

Talk about pride. You willingly overlook verse after verse after verse in preference to the RCC. Your faith is in the RCC.

You say the RCC is totally convinced of the truth contained in the Holy Bible, and yet I've actually shown you examples of where it teaches opposition to the Word.

Are you not the least bit concerned at your inability to address the scriptural/doctrinal proof posted earlier?

You think that by repeating "The Catholic Church is perfect" in various ways, that it will be true. Compare what the RCC says to the Bible...

COMPARE WHAT THE RCC SAYS to THE BIBLE.

You say I'm spouting "Glory to the Bible" -- praise God that I would be labeled such. I'm certain that He thinks rather highly of His Word as well.

Show me where the "accusations" I've made AREN'T TRUE! And you accuse me of never seeing any danger in sin... where have I ever once suggested that sin is not dangerous?! You have entered into the theater of the absurd.

What is dangerous is the unapologetic departure from the Word of God -- that, friend, is a grave sin.

the RCC is perfect?
Ever read what your "infallible" popes have written? Consider the following quotes.

The foundation of all our confidence is found in the Virgin Mary. God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will: that we obtain everything through Mary. Sweet heart of Mary, be my salvation! --Pope Pius IX

Nothing comes to us except through the mediation of Mary, for such is the will of God. O Virgin Most Holy, no one abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; no one O Mother of God, attains salvation except through thee! Every one of the multitudes, therefore, whom the evil of calamitous circumstances has stolen away from Catholic unity, must be born again to Christ by that same Mother whom God has endowed with a never-failing fertility to bring forth a holy people. --Pope Leo XIII

He will not taste death forever who, in his dying moments, has recourse to the Blessed Virgin Mary. What will it cost you to save us? Has not Jesus placed in your hands all the treasures of His grace and mercy? You sit crowned as Queen at the right hand of your Son: your dominion reaches as far as the heavens, and to you are subject the earth and all creatures dwelling thereon. Your dominion reaches even down into the abyss of Hell, and you alone O Mary, save us from the hands of Satan. --Pope Pius XI

For, since it is the will of Divine Providence that we should have the God-Man through Mary, there is no other way for us to receive Christ except from her hands. --Pope Pius X

the RCC is perfect?
THE BIBLE SAYS--
Peter wrote: "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

Jesus said: "I am the way, and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6).

The Word of God speaks for itself, and apparently, so does the RCC. For the RCC to claim that it fully upholds Scripture is dishonest and heretical.

The Word of God
I do not have to twist Scripture to make it say something it doesn't already plainly say.

Your beef is not with me, it's with the Word.

the RCC is perfect? -more-
More quotes from "infallible" popes...

We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. --Pope Boniface VIII

Into this fold of Jesus Christ no man may enter unless he be led by the Sovereign Pontiff, and only if they be united to him can men be saved. --Pope John XXIII

Those who are obstinate toward the authority of the Church and the Roman Pontiff... cannot obtain eternal salvation. --Pope Pius IX

THESE ARE NOT THE SENTIMENTS OF MEN COMMITTED TO JESUS CHRIST.


Dear Mom, You Deny Scripture


I've given you ample text proof, which you ignored. You can't say I haven't searched the Scripture.

When JESUS says clearly Peter will have the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whoever won't hear His Church is to be a heathen & a publican; (Matt 16)

And Paul tells you the Church is Pillar of the Truth, 1Tim, 3:15)

You try to say I'm at odds with the Word?

It tells me you deny the words of Jesus and those of Paul His holy apostle. In Holy Scripture ! And; for what it's worth-- I know you've become a heathen; but for what it's worth; Paul is a Catholic SAINT. They've recently uncovered his remains outside the walls of Rome. (Basilica San Paolo --You can Google it.) Paul was interred under the main altar of a CATHOLIC basilica. (Which I visited last year.) He wrote those epistles to faithful Catholics, and they were preserved in the Bible. For all of us!

But, apparently you don't believe they're the Word of God.

.

yes, perfect, and the pope infallible


You rebel against the word of God?


"THESE ARE NOT THE SENTIMENTS OF MEN COMMITTED TO JESUS CHRIST."

I think they are; since Christ founded the Catholic Church. Why would you as a Christian want to disobey a Church established by the Son of God? Forget about sentiments. JESUS gave His promises to His Church.

He never prophesied any "reformation." If you search the texts and find a word there about His Church later on requiring men to reform her, I'll congratulate you. Same offer to any other "born again" Christian in this thread, including Doug Giles. Not talking about personal opinions; I mean out of the Holy Bible!


I hope you will show me
You think you showed me examples of where it (THE CATHOLIC CHUCH) teaches opposition to the Word.

Wrong; you quoted passages that mean nothing. We are never opposed to the Word of God. ALL we do is quote the words of the Bible, in Mass and other popular devotions.

Mass always quotes many passages of the Scriptures at each and every stage of the ceremony. God demands ritual; He wanted it from the Israelites and He wants it now. We OBEY His commandments.

The Rosary is positively based on Scriptural passages. We recite words spoken by Jesus when He instructed the apostles; (OUR FATHER,) and words of the Angel Gabriel when he announced to Mary the coming of Jesus by her participation (Virgin birth) HAIL, FULL OF GRACE, Luke 1, :28;
and the doxology, which Paul often uses, "Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit," etc.,

In every other prayer our love and petitions are directed to Jesus Christ through the saints He loves in heaven. We do NOT worship any saint; we only praise God and we love His saints in glory. Nothing unbiblical about that. But you don't understand Scripture.


Okay
Nevermind that the Bible says there is only one mediator -- surely it's wrong. RCC says it must be Mary, who apparently is now omnipresent and the real path to salvation according to the popes. We'll just ignore that Jesus Himself was just narrow-minded enough never to mention her as the 'real' avenue to salvation. Good thing the popes set us straight, otherwise we might have actually BELIEVED Jesus when He said He was the ONLY way to the Father.

Nevermind that the Bible says that the sacrifice Christ made on the cross was once for all, unlike the jewish priests whose imperfect sacrifices required repetition and could never satisfy God's holy requirements -- surely it's wrong. RCC says it must be re-presented in an unbloody manner over and over and over and over. And THEN, you STILL can't be sure it's enough. Christ must not have been the perfect Lamb of God. And nevermind that the Bible says that the shedding of blood is what makes a sacrifice a sacrifice, but the RCC says a bloodless one is good too.

Nevermind that that 1 John says he writes these things so that you may KNOW you have eternal life -- surely it's wrong. I am not reading that right, after all, the RCC anathematizes anyone who claims to know. I guess the pope has the power to anathematize even apostles.

Nevermind that Peter was publicly rebuked for perverting the gospel by insisting that Gentiles observe the Jewish law for salvation -- that can't be right. After all, the RCC says Peter couldn't be wrong.

Nevermind that Christ Himself says to Peter, GET THEE BEHIND ME SATAN. We'll be sure to skip that verse when we read b/c the RCC wouldn't have any pope called "Satan" for any reason, not even by the Lord.

Nevermind that Jesus said one should only ever pray to the Father, and without vain repetition. The popes' instructions for prayer certainly trump Christ's.




cont'd.
Nevermind that the Bible says after making His perfect sacrifice on the cross, Jesus is now seated at the right hand of the Father in Heaven. Thanks to the RCC, now we know that was the Holy Spirit MEANT to say was that Jesus is now present all over the world at the same time in wafers, under the obligation to every priest who commands Him to be so.

Nevermind that Hebrews says Jesus doesn't need to offer daily sacrifices, that His sacrifice was once for all. The RCC tell us that the sacrifice is not only insufficient in that we need to add our own works, but that His own sacrifice needs to be presented over and over.

It's a good thing we have the RCC to tell us all the places where Jesus was wrong, the apostles were wrong, and Scripture in general is leading people astray.

It's hard not to be flippant when you have so completely ignored or overturned God's Word; I pray that God's mercy will be poured out on you. You are not the least bit interested in what God's Word plainly says. I beg you to go back and read the information I posted before.

As I said, YOUR BEEF IS NOT WITH ME.

YOUR BEEF IS WITH GOD'S WORD.

Meaningless passages
You say I cannot understand what is plainly written in the Bible, and yet you have said that I've quoted "passages that mean nothing".

You are claiming to know which passages are meaningless and which are not? I didn't know that I was corresponding with Pope Benedict or a bishop. After all, the RCC is clear that these are the only ones who have the authority to interpret Scripture.


It is blasphemy
to say popes are infallible when I've quoted several popes who all vehemently insist that salvation is through Mary.

What Bible are you reading?!

Do you think I am making these things up?

You don't know your church or your Bible.

Colossians 2:8
"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ."

I'm sorry
Dreadnaught,
I am truly sorry for becoming so flippant. It is because I want the truth of God's Word to be planted in every person's heart, and I am frustrated when God's Word is doubted or skewed.

Adam and Even walked with God, and yet when tempted, even they doubted God's Word.

The Jews, as God's chosen people, had all the Scripture full of prophesies pointing to the coming Messiah, and even they rejected Him.

The children of Israel had physical manifestations of God's presence (the pillar of cloud and flame) leading them through the desert, and they strayed from God as well.

How many people were witnesses to Christ's teaching and miracles, and yet still rejected Him?

These examples are just a few that remind me of how important it is to know Scripture and trust what God says, because in many ways it seems our generation is at an even greater disadvantage than those past. Many mishandle Scripture to justify all sorts of evil practices.

If I didn't honestly care about Catholics (or others), then I wouldn't care if the world went to Hell in ignorance or deception. And I wouldn't be trying to proclaim the gospel in hopes that more might be saved. I hope that your zeal for God is really that, and founded securely in His Word.

Truly, truly, I pray that you and others that read our exchange will be blessed by the reading of God's Word, even the few passages that have been quoted here.

with all due respect:


Dear American Mom.

God hasn't called you to proclaim the Gospel. He sent His apostles, and they in turn gave us their ordained successors. Together and under the Holy Spirit they went out to the nations. You and I are the sheep.

Jesus called only __ one shepherd __ Peter. He said, "Feed my sheep." His sheep are living members of the Catholic Church. (John 21, chapter 15) The shepherd who comes in the office started by Peter is today Pope Benedict XVI.

Sheep aren't called to make their shepherd do what they want in this world. They must pray for him; that God will afford him grace to lead the flock.

They aren't independent; they need their shepherd. Look at what happened to so many good Christians in the 16th century; when they were snatched away from the Pope their appointed guardian. They strayed in all directions.

Jesus prophesied; "Strike the shepherd and the sheep will be scattered."

Now you Christians number over 28,000 separate congregations without a leader. NO SHEPHERD.


Can't you understand, Mom?
I had to go back to this remark you made:

"Good thing we have the RCC to tell us all the places where Jesus was wrong, the apostles were wrong, and Scripture in general is leading people astray."


Only it's YOU; American Mom, who has no use for the words of Jesus and Paul the apostle.

"My flesh is food indeed; and my blood is drink indeed." Jesus Christ; in the Bible; John 6 :56 which you won't take literally. You decided Jesus takes liberties with the truth.

Paul, 1Cor 11, :23 "The body and the blood of the Lord. I received from the Lord Himself." ___But___ American Mom is not interested in what the holy apostle teaches. In the Bible!

"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven." (Matt 16 :19) Jesus Christ to the apostle Peter. Mom doesn't believe this. Jesus was lying. 1 Tim, 3 :15 "The Church is the Pillar of the TRUTH,-- " Not for American Mom. She disputes the Holy Bible.

What's wrong with this good lady? Is the Bible something she can manipulate at will? Is SHE the truth, not Jesus?

Oops, one more thing...
Go back and read the epistles, and even Jesus' own words. Believers are encouraged to teach one another and have a ready answer about the joy within.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost...

Romans 10:14, 15
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent?

II Timothy 4:1-4
I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.


Finally, again
Good night.

AliveInHim
>Would you please re-read the First Amendment? It means that Congress shall not use its power and by extension our tax dollars to establish a STATE church, such as both England (Anglican)and Germany (Lutheran)have. (It's worth noting that in both instances those churches are dead in practical terms.) Colonial churches were once supported by tax dollars, but when it became clear that favoring any one doctrine over any other (as would eventually occur) would present problems, the idea was scrapped.<

…which is exactly what I mean by freedom from religion.

Stuart

Once more, American Mom


You're setting up a straw dog; accusing Catholics of not reading & following the Bible. I promptly set that straight & you won't acknowledge.

It's all right. Your variety of arguments have only exposed what deep prejudice you have in your heart against the Catholic Church and her faithful. Yours is the same old virulent hate speech just denounced in Hagee's awful sermons, and I guess you think the Bible teaches that.

You've only argued to show the world your anti-catholic venom. For myself, I just forgive you. Jesus prophesied there would be people who hate us; He meant every kind. Even professing "believers."


But it's your own cohort who wrote the article here; Doug Giles; he calls your sectarian faith a loser. What might have been Salt and Light is only bitterness and spite. He called it slop and tripe. (I didn't, your co-believer did.) It's a bad sign when you say the Bible instructs you and you end up slop and tripe.

The Church Jesus founded is there when you come to your senses and return. It was home to your blessed ancestors. The Catholic Church brought untold millions of souls to faith in Jesus Christ, well before any "reformation" got your 28,000 carts rolling. Paul calls her the Pillar and mainstay of the truth. When your recent ancestors abandoned her, they left all Truth behind. For scared souls like you to embrace error in its place.

I'll pray for you, American Mom.



Strong WORDS
A lot of what you have said is true, but it makes me wonder about those who are trying to do their best regarding their calling and stay true to the WORD as they minister to the public. Your choice of words is strong and in some cases very accurate. Others are a bit on the wild side of description. Since I try to only look at the 1/10th of a persent that is reasonable, I understand the objections to the 'hype' of the others. I don't see much these days on the tv of the Christian church as such, but know that there are those who want to have the right approach and not draw the wrong crowd. If that can be said . The purpose of course is to seek those who are lost, and who need salvation, and that they need to see their lostness as GOD see's it. Then they may realize where they will go if they aren't SAVED . So the contrasts are indeed necessary. Prayer for the pastors who do seek the TRUTH of GOD'S message for the lost is much needed for those who are willing to search for the church that will Speak the TRUTH with LOVE, and not bend to society's sinful ways in the process of presenting the Message of Salvation. May all those who read this understand their need for Salvation if they haven't made a committment as yet. Blessings, T.C.

Thank you, Tina from TN
Tina,
Quite a thoughtful and sensitive post. Just what a Christian is supposed to contribute.

Let's clarify that being "true to the Word" but never referring to the Catholic Church's rendition of that Word, on grounds of old animosities with their virulent anti-papist falsehoods is __not__ being true.

Believe me, Tina, I'm here as a Catholic who's challenging the Church's ecumenical outreaches. I want here a return to basics.

We aren't supposed to be confrontational with mainstream American Christianity as represented by ministers of the Word. We needed a plea of reconciliation in order to attract the more rational protestants back to the faith. That's the main direction of Vatican II.

Mea culpa! My instincts lead me to confront a mind-set that adores a fetish; the Bible. Just reflect and see; it isn't how Christ wished His kingdom to be seen in the world. As the Bible-purchased and paid-for kingdom of God. Jesus never saw the Bible!

We have His Church, no other one. The people who reject His Church reject Jesus Christ in essence. Of course they huddle around the all-important Bible; they LOVE Jesus, I realize this. But by allowing their faith to be totally sold on the text of the Bible; (an unscriptural choice) they stray away from unity with His Church. As Paul remonstrated in his letter: "Is Christ then divided?"

Foolishness
Jesus never saw the Bible?! He knew the Scriptures, as all Jews did, because they had and studied and were charged with preserving the Old Testament.

The Old Testament has literally hundreds of prophecies pointing to the coming of Christ and Jesus fulfilled them all.

You blaspheme God by saying that His Word is merely a fetish to some believers.

My stance is not anti-Catholic; it's PRO-God's Word. You claimed that the RCC upholds the truth of the Bible, but you have clearly given her priority OVER the Word.

inimitable American Mom!


Back for more?

"You blaspheme God by saying that His Word is merely a fetish to some believers."

IT IS; because you can't back up so many ridiculous private interpretations of the Word. To you the Word becomes a mere fetish; you're entangled in it, instead of learning the truth from it.

"My stance is not anti-Catholic; it's PRO-God's Word."


NOPE-- You're anti-catholic to the core. If you were Pro-God's Word, you wouldn't BOWDLERIZE His Holy Word. Look that up, bowdlerize, a common fault of Bible Christians and fundies. That's why a David Koresh or Rev. Jeremiah Wright, or Sharpton or Jimmy Swaggart have power over your minds. BOGUS Bible interpreters!

"You claimed that the RCC upholds the truth of the Bible, but you have clearly given her priority OVER the Word."

Not at all, Mommy. The priority is all the Holy Spirit's; Who guards his Church against ever teaching error in any matter of faith and morals. You see; Christ sent His Holy Church the Paraclete; the Spirit of truth; to give scripture AND sacred tradition a safeguard; never to be in error. A fundie church or sect out in the Bible-Belt hasn't received the Holy Spirit. No matter what your self-ordained, free-lance Preacher thinks.

reminder to American Mom:
Jesus never saw the Bible?!

Don't ignore the reason I said that:

I was telling you-- Jesus NEVER told us we'd be Christians on account of Bible study. That was the point; and you ignored me.

You can't show ONE SINGLE VERSE saying we'll have the Bible as our sole rule of faith. But many pages saying we'll be taught all the truth in His Church. The same Church where we got the Holy Bible to begin with! You embrace the Bible, but dismiss the Teacher you received it from.




Sign Up to Post Your CommentsSign Up to Post Your Comments
If you are already registered, click here to login. Otherwise, please take a few seconds to register with Townhall.com. Once you sign up, you’ll be able to post your comments immediately, use the action center, get podcasts, and more!
Note: Fields marked with a red asterisk (*) are required.
Salutation:
First Name:
*
Last Name:
*
Email:
*
Nickname:
*
Note: Nick name will be shown when you post comments.
Address 1:
*
Address 2:
City:
*
State:
*
Zip:
*
Phone:
      
Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
(Bi-Weekly) We highlight the best opportunities from our partners for surveys, action items and more.