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Saturday, July 21, 2007
Doug Giles :: Townhall.com Columnist
Pit Bulls and Stupid Fools
by Doug Giles
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It’s sad that one of the greatest dog breeds ever to grace the planet, the American Pit Bull Terrier, has fallen into the hands of animal abusing idiots. Guys like Michael Vick, our nation’s scurrilous hip hop hoodlums and other waste-of-sperm-and-eggs are not even worthy to carry this canine’s excrement much less superintend their subsistence. The Pit Bulls should be walking these boys on the leash, teaching them to fetch, heel and sit and not the other way around.

I think I speak for all Pit Bull lovers by saying, “thanks morons for sullying a substantial animal’s rep via dog fighting.” Why don’t you Darwinian holdovers get another hobby, huh ladies? I’ve got something you could do. Since you like doing radical stuff … how about bungee jumping without the bungee? Or base jumping without a ‘chute? Or trying to catch bullets with your teeth? Yeah … that’s it.

Of the many things that suck about Vick’s and his vapid gang’s Pit Bull fighting, one particular thing (aside from the obvious abuse) that ticks me off is this noble breed gets officially branded, once again, as Satan’s Cerberus.

The truth of the matter is that the Pit Bull is one of the sweetest dogs that has ever schlepped this pebble and anyone who’s spent any time around a well bred bully knows that I speak the truth. Can I get a witness my brethren?

When I lived in Texas, I was privileged to have owned several of these fine animals. My children were raised with them from the day they came home from the hospital ‘til the time we moved to Dade County, Florida which unfortunately disallows these dogs.

My Pit Bulls guarded my girls with their life. They were my daughter’s favorite playmates. Our dogs would pull their little wagons, let my girls ride them like a pony, let them dress them up in goofy outfits, all the while my dogs sat there patiently taking it with a big Pit Bull grin on their faces.

At night my bullies would lay at my little ladies’ feet, protecting them as they simultaneously rested and recharged their batteries so they could wake up the next day and conquer the earth all over again.

Pit Bulls vicious? I don’t think so. Not mine. Not unless you really pushed them or threatened our family. If you were dumb enough to do that, then you got the message real quick from our pups that you were about to meet Jesus if you did not cease and desist.

Our dogs were more like comedians than commandos. They showed zero unwarranted aggression towards people and pooches. They had amazing discernment, insane athletic ability and undaunted courage. This breed impacted me so much I wrote a book about their magnificent spirit (go to amazon.com The Bulldog Attitude).

As far as I’m concerned, the Pit Bull is one of the most awesome animals on the planet. And before hype hit the fan, and the local news needed fresh chum for the gullible ones and the pimps and thugs became the owners of this noble animal, The United States of America thought so as well.

Yes, the U.S. believed that the Pit Bull was great enough to be our mascot in World War One. During WWI, Life magazine frequently had Pit Bulls on their covers and in their cartoons, using them as a symbol of America’s stalwart spirit.

In Jacqueline O’Neil’s book, the American Pit Bull Terrier, Jackie brings out the fact that a Pit Bull named Stubby was the war’s outstanding canine soldier. He earned the rank of Sergeant, was mentioned in official dispatches and earned two medals – one for warning of a gas attack and the other for holding a German spy at bay at Chemin des Dames until the American troops arrived.

In addition, the Pit Bull was also one of our nation’s beloved canine movie stars. Remember, the Our Gang and Little Rascals comedy series with Spanky, Alfalfa, Darla and Buck Wheat? Do you remember their dog, Pete? He was a Pit Bull (actually, they used ten different Pit Bulls for the show). Did Pete eat any of the cast of the show? No. Was he cool, tolerant, funny and well behaved as the Little Rascals used him to pull their wagons, do their tricks and run their errands? Yes.

Historically speaking, it was not the pimps and thugs or the foolishly over paid depraved athletes and empty entertainers that owned these dogs. Matters of fact, some of our most famous folks were fanciers of the Pit Bull, namely; Thomas Edison, Helen Keller, President Theodore Roosevelt, Jack Dempsey and Fred Astaire.

As you can tell my affection and esteem for this animal is sky high. My dogs were amazing. It sickens me to think that because of some goof’s desire to make some cash off a dog fight, or his desire to posture himself as some tough guy, or his wet dream of being just like the guy he saw on MTV that this brilliant breed walks away with a black eye. I say lets give the black eye to the bad guy who abuses a bulldog and leave the dog alone.

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About The Author
Doug Giles’ new book “If You're Going Through Hell, Keep Going!" is now available. Ann Coulter says "Doug Giles is a substantive and funny tour de force for traditional values.” Doug’s talk show and video blog can be seen and heard at www.ClashRadio.com.
 
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dogs with the iq of a 3 year old
Sorry but I too will be subjective. If you really believe this than according to my daughter whom I agree with then maybe you have the iq of a 3 year old. Ok we could have said this nicer but its late and honesty is the fastest way to get the point across. Most dogs of any breed, most pets of any species can tell good from bad much better than people can. Most dogs are great at learning and most trainers said their best students are pitbulls and german shephards. Also in temperament testing pitties scored in the 84.3 % and Staffire Terriers, a type of pit bull scorred above 93%. This means they could descern between a harmless fire cracker, a harmless tire blowing off and the danger of a gun and even the difference of it being directed towards them vs a human family member. Remember the tsunamis? It was the animals that went for high ground long before the humans did. Most humans had to see the tsunami before trying to escape it. The smarter humans are the ones who fallowed the animals knowing the animals must have gone to higher grounds for something.
Here is how dumb my dog is. Today my daughter was doing stuff on the computer. Our dog nudged her and went to the backdoor as if she wanted to go out. My daughter got off the computer to let the dog out who just stood there and all of a sudden a whole bunch of stuff fell of the table next to the computer which would have fallen on my kid had the dog not knudged her.
Kids dont listen to parents or drs. So when my kid is sick, my dog lays on her blanket so she has to stay in bed. It was dogs who rescued victims of the 9/11. Search and rescues are most successfully done with dogs and a large number of them are pitties. Also remember Wheela who saved a whole lot of people and animals in many ways and twice she saved rescue workers, once by showing them how to get around a flood, by showing them the shallower sides. If they hadnt fallowed the dog they and the people they rescued would have drowned.

being terrified of a breed
The most viscious attack my daughter encountered was from a doxichiuau mix. The dog attacked her while she was petsitting for it and she has tons of experience. I tried helping and it tried to lunge at me. We called in an expert to help us get it back in the kitchen where the owners had it and away from the cat. The blood on the wall was not from anyones ankles.
We were afraid of doxis for the longest time and especially of mixes but instead of giving in to this feeling we prayed that we would meet some good doxis to help us get over this fear and she is currently petsitting for two great doxis and would never have had this pleasure if she gave in to the fear. we are still nervous around the mix of that breed but we know its stupid and know we will eventually get over that as well.

pitbulls and labs
I have a pitty and lab mix and love both breeds.
To the person who said his lab would lick everyone, mine would to but if someone tried to rape my daughter my pitty and lab mix would not let that happen. Your lab would kiss your childs rapist?
Also did you know the first face transplant was done on a french woman after she was severly attacked by a labrador retriever.
Pitties have their first too,
The first war dog,
The first hearing dog
The first dog in movies
The first dog in movie magazines,
The first dog to ride in a car cross country
sporting those doggy goggeles,so the first to try on the doggy goggles.
If a robber came to mine or mr gills house and noone was home our pit and pit mixes would jump on the robber and lick them.When we go for walks, children run towards our pit mix and jump on her to pet her as I am sure they would for purebred pits like the authors. If however a robber put a gun on our heads or my daughter felt uncomfortable at a strangers grip, she would attack and give her life as Mia the pit did when her human infant and their mom was visciously attacked by guess what, a lab. The neighboerhood kids had been afraid of this lab but that was the straw. They were not afraid of Mia the pit. If Mia was not there the lab would have killed that infant, instead it cause Mia to get killed. Go to youtube and type in Mia our hero and read about it yourself and see the damages on the moms legs the lab caused through the thick jeans she was wearing.It took an entire neighboerhood to contain the lab and they were unsuccessful. I love labs, just not that one. oh our neighboer hood guard dog is a lab. The many pits and pit mixes are no problem but after 11 pm you need to be worried about the lab.

PUNISH THE DEED NOT THE BREED!!!
there is no such thing as a bad dog just bad owners ignorant people should be banned not this beatiful breed. My pit is the most loyal and loving dog i've ever met and if you met here all you pit haters would eat your words...read my blog for more!! DONT HATE THE BREED HATE THE DEED! NO BAD DOGS JUST HAD OWNERS!

Settling this ridiculous discussion...
This from Wikipedia:

"A study published in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medicine Association in September, 2000 reports that in the 20 years studied (1979 to 1998) "Pit-bull type dogs" and Rottweilers were involved in one half of dog bite related fatalities in the US[2]. Another study of American and Canadian dog bite related fatalities from September 1982 to November 2006 produced similar results, reporting that Pit bulls, Rottweilers, Presa Canarios and their mixes were responsible for 65% fatal dog attacks[3]. This study also noted: "Of the breeds most often involved in incidents of sufficient severity to be listed, pit bull terriers are noteworthy for attacking adults almost as frequently as children." and "They are also notorious for attacking seemingly without warning, a tendency exacerbated by the custom of docking pit bulls' tails so that warning signals are not easily recognized.""

Now you can spin these statistics however you please, but the fact is that pit bulls are associated with more "accidents" than any other breed. I personally don't care if its the owners fault or the inherent nature of the animal, these animals need to be muzzled.

Spare me your lame testimonies about "I have worked with pit bulls my entire life, and they are really good dogs or I use mine for protection and it would never hurt my children..." Dogs are not intelligent enough to accurately discern, 100% of the time, who a good guy is and who a bad guy is. You are empowering an animal with the IQ of a 3 year old retard to make family security decisions on your behalf. This speaks volumes about the owner's credibility.

Buy an alarm system, don't buy a loaded shotgun, and I mean that literally and figuratively.


I'm always amazed at the ignorance...
It pains me to see the posts made by people that think they seem to know a thing or two about these "vicious" dogs. Just a quick fact: According to American Temperament Test Society, Inc., as of December 2006, 456 of the 542 (84.1%) American Pit Bull Terriers tested passed the temperament test (82.7% of the Rottweilers did too). Both of these breeds did better than, for example, the Collie (79.2%), the Beagle (79.1%), the Dalmation (81.9%), and the Cocker Spaniel (81.7%).

CDC stats
http://www.azstarnet.com/allheadlines/191914
Tucson, Arizona | Published: 07.16.2007
Question: Are there any statistics on the breeds of dogs most often reported to have attacked and injured people in the U.S.?
Answer: A study done by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in 2000 examined the breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998. The top five breeds were pit-bull types, Rottweilers, German shepherds, husky types and Malamutes. The top 20 breeds include Dobermans, St. Bernards, Great Danes and Labrador retrievers. However, the Humane Society of the United States has taken a stand against using breed-based dog-bite numbers to regulate dog ownership. It contends that unless the numbers of a specific breed are known, it is impossible to statistically calculate which are the most dangerous breeds.
For example, if a study indicates that there are five bites by golden retrievers and 10 bites by pit bulls, but there are 100 retrievers in the community and 500 pit bulls, then statistically the retrievers are the breed more likely to bite.

Pit Bulls and Stupid People
RIGHT ON Doug! I am a 57 year old woman who, at one time BEGGED and SCREAMED for my son NOT to get a Pit Bull. NOW, after 17 years of knowning these animals and having them in my house and around my children AND my grandchilden, I WANT NO OTHER DOG!! They are highly intelligent and this intelligence shows when they are playing with the kids (as they so love both kids and play). The best thing that happened to me and my whole family, is when my son didn't listen. Since then we have had 3. Every time I hear the old "these dogs are vicious" I can guarentee that these people have never been around these fabulously friendly family dogs.
Signed almost 60 and Thank God, STILL Learning!


As for Dogbitelaw.com
Instead of taking the easy way out, and garnering some excerpted material from an ambulance-chasing lawyers' website, why not read the CDC report itself, in it's entirety? Sure, it's six pages long, but it explains why the CDC itself deemed the report as of no discernable value, and the problems with all the statistics gathering, and all the flaws of the report. The CDC, for the many reasons listed in the report itself, has not tracked dog attacks/fatalities by breed since 1998, and is opposed to breed bans. http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf

The CDC, along with the AVMA and the USPS, favor a cummunity approach to dog bite prevention, and sponsor Dog Bite Prevention week the 3rd week of May every year. Too bad more communities do not participate in this.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/biteprevention.htm

And from the CDC dog bite prevention week website itself: "A CDC study on fatal dog bites lists the breeds involved in fatal attacks over 20 years (Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998). It does not identify specific breeds that are most likely to bite or kill, and thus is not appropriate for policy-making decisions related to the topic."

Read the whole report, instead of looking at an ambulance-chasers' website. Fact is, if your dog bites someones' kid, it won't matter what breed it is, you can be sued. And if your child is attacked, you won't care what breed it is, you will only wonder how it could have been prevented. Would you feel better that your kid was scarred for life just because a Pit Bull didn't do it? NO! Look on doggonesafe.com to see how to teach kids how to behave appropriately around dogs. The site contains lots of free, printable materials, some in coloring book format that even small children can understand, and is a valuable resource to educate kids on how to help avoid being bitten in the first place.
http://www.doggonesafe.com/




The Pit Bull vs. the ignorance of people
This is in response to Scooter's comment. I am the proud owner of 3 pitbull's and a chocolate lab. My pitbull's have never bit anyone or have they ever attempted to bite anyone but, guess which one of my 4 dogs have ~ MY CHOCOLATE LAB ~ not just once but, on a few occasions (AND IT WAS MY HUSBAND AND MYSELF WHO HE HAS BITTEN). How's that for your wonderful lab breed? I would take pitbull's to own over any breed any day without hesitation. I also work in a vet hospital and most of our small society loving breeds are the ones that will bite you in a heartbeat and yes, they can do damage! Please educate yourself before you label a pitbull as a vicious breed.

Pit Bulls
Why is it that whenever Pit Bulls are a topic of discussion, the stereotypical Lab owners ALWAYS pop up, wondering why everyone doesn't just get a Lab? The vast majority of us Pit Bull owners are law-abiding, taxpaying, working professionals, homeowners, voters, and overall contributing members of society. We have our dogs because they are wonderful pets, and we love them very much, and they never hurt anybody. If you think your Lab makes you a better person than me because of the breed of dog I own, then what exactly does that say about you? A bit of elitism, perhaps? Some prejudice on your part?

I have my Pit Bull because the dog was a rescue animal that I adopted, rather than giving my money to a breeder and contributing to the problem of too many pets, not enough homes. The rescue offered me a dog who had been temperament tested by three separate agencies, and has made a wonderful addition to my home. Not because I need any sort of image enhancement. I went looking for a great dog to add to my family, and that is exactly what I got. If I ever get another dog, it is sure to be another Pit Bull.

If you think only a "certain" kind of person owns a Pit Bull, and we only have our dogs for image enhancement, then I must ask why so many people need a "purebred" dog, and just have to tell you how much THEY paid for their "purebred", and now the "purebred" crowd is even resorting to making up breed names for their overpriced mutts - "Labradoodle"s and "Puggle"s, indeed! If you think all Pit owners are gangster lowlifes, then please don't come to the OR where I am employed - the surgeon fixing you, the anesthesiologist putting you to sleep for your surgery, the tech passing instruments, the surgical assistant stitching you up, the nurse caring for you, may well ALL be Pit Bull owners.

And if all you know of these dogs is media reports, then you don't know much. The AVMA, the ASPCA, the CDC, even the AKC, all agree that there is no such thing as an inherently dangerous dog breed. There are estimated to be 5-6 MILLION Pit Bulls in America, and the 99.98% percent of good Pit Bulls won't be the ones making the news. So, if you prefer a Lab, fine, that is your prerogative. But keep your mitts off my Pit!! And stop being so prejudiced and stereotyping me based on my dog, and stop stereotyping my dog based on your preconceived notions.

It's a shame that people in this country actually use the breed of their dog as a basis of elitist snobbery.


Pit Bulls
My daughter and her husband are proud owners of two Pit Bulls - actually one full-bred and the other an American Bulldog/Pit Bull mix. the mix is female, the full-bred male. Both are the sweetest dogs you could imagine. About the only way either would hurt anyone is by accidentally knocking you over...they are solid and strong!
Before becoming "grandfather" to these two dogs, the only experience I had of Pit Bulls were those raised by low-lifes in the city where I worked...Michael Vick types...who thought having a "mean" dog was a sign of manhood. I was glad to see otherwise.
Like German Shepherds, Doberman Pinschers and Rottweilers, a Pit Bull is a classic case of "heredity versus environment" in how they develop. A Pekingese can be a menace if trained or allowed to become so.

Gester remind me to avoid the patrons
... of your fine dog-breeding establishment. I personally prefer my salt of the earth neighbor with his mutt to your patrons with their eugenics enhanced, inbred monstrosities ... who demand I be awed by their superior obedience training skills. you put yourself above Vick and the person flaunting his BA dog but still haven't explained to my why a more traditional pet type of dog doesn't cut it for you ...

why would you rather have the challenge of being like Sharpton and being the one who "controls the steam" of these unstable laboratory specimens.

a little knowledge is a dangerous thing but I've heard that the reasons Dobermans are so unpredictable is that their selectively bred craniums impinge on the development of their brain and limbic system. now there's a comforting thought for me when I'm on my crit bike or rollerblading past my neighbor who owns that Dobie whose only other noticeable attribute is yelping at any ungodly hour when its hypersensitive C^3 systems see fit.

I have no interest in attending the Vick affair myself but my libertarian streak tells me that the government's interest in the Vick affair has more to do with the gambling action on the side rather than any concern for the welfare of these vicious animals.

the government loves lotteries and casinos where they can award their buddies with monopolies on the "vices" in question. If I were a true gambler I'd much prefer the odds of the non-vigorish affairs put on by Vick ...

when you read about the drug running aspects of Iran Contra which strangely enough were run out of Arkansas too in the Clinton days, gun control, cigarettes, etc. you understand that the government loves vices that it can monopolize or else tax with the tacit approval of the useful idiot liberals in our midst.

reply to habermassive
What in the name of h*** does this mean?
" have no problem with patrons going to and gambling on pay for play and presumably SAFE animal fighting productions from Vick or others " I mean, what exactly is a "safe" animal fight? I guess you mean that the dogs rip each other up, but don't bite the bettors. Remind me to turn you down if you get my kennel name from the local breeders' referal.

self-congratulatory breeders ...
for those who ridicule the gambling aspects of the Vick story how about the intersection of pit bull fighting with horse racing and dog racing: these sports ALL condone brutal miscegenation and selective breeding practices.

a previous poster, "Polly PureBred" who was a breeder of pure-bred golden retrievers who expressed a rather low opinion of her target market, who in her words prefer low-cost and impure mutts (even though they're no doubt safer to own) either does one or more of the following repugnant practices:

culls out those vicious alpha off-spring to give her customers what they pay for: a milder dog ... (and without any irony given this is a TH thread, she's probably an anti-abortionist herself)

doesn't do that and hence doesn't give their customers what they're paying for, so she has more dogs to sell her unsuspecting customer ...

in either case her litters will still have a normal percentage of alpha dogs or two given the nature of the critters ... although given the selection process they may be less vicious overall than the previous generation.

if these same cruel and "inhumane" practices of these selective breeders were applied to humans I'm sure you'd all be humming the dueling banjos theme from "Deliverance" ...

the light but weak bones of Barbaro were a consequence of all of those years of selective breeding ...

and as Cesar Milan would say: when a low energy owner buys one of these high energy creatures you are denying the animal its true nature and create a neurotic animal. Giles buying the dog and expecting it to only sit around and allow his 3 year old to mount it but then to rise up like Cerberus only on those six sigma events when someone decides to rob him is a recipe for Cesar Milan disaster.

an even more likely occurrence than the robbery would be for someone to look at his dog cross-eyed with some subtle look that a typical petrified but dog clueless person might make having read about all of these unfortunate anecdotes of canine maulings.

with that being said; is horse racing as a sport really that more evolved from pit bull and cockfighting? ... I'd say those sports are in fact more honest and less sublimated than the hidden barbarity of pure breeding in these other so-called "sports of kings."

when a zoo keeper or a zoo patron is trampled or killed by an elephant or bitten by a wild cat at least the protagonists knew the possibility of that existed going in and so as compared to the poor women bitten by a presa canrio while returning home with her groceries it's a relatively forgivable tragedy.

so yes; I have no problem with patrons going to and gambling on pay for play and presumably SAFE animal fighting productions from Vick or others (betta splendens anyone?)but my "live and let live" instincts tell me that I don't want to see your unleashed pit bull on our communal jogging trail in my local complex and if you're my friend don't expect my un-dog-socialized kids to know what to do around your precious keg of dynamite.

reply to habermassive
I'm not getting your larger point. Giles isn't arguing for, but rather against, the idea of banning pit bulls simply because some owners allow the dogs to bite people, or fail to control their dogs adequately.

In fact, your overall aim is so unclear that I have to ask you: do you think people should be allowed to stage dog-fights? It is certainly a restraint on their individual freedom when laws prohibit them from doing so. In fact, I'll bet you or some other conservative could make a good case for why dog-fighting is really protected under our constitution.

[If habermassive doesn't make this case, I hope some other TH reader will attempt it.]

Pit Bulls
It amazes me how ignorant the public is about dogs. Personality in a dog comes from it's parents. As a Golden Retriever breeder, I can tell the ignorant person who wrote that they are friendly, it is not always true. It is up to the breeder to breed the best of the best to insure the puppies will be ok. Here it is in a nutshell. You people who are writing in are all cheap. You are not dog smart and most of you probably don't even own a dog. If your were to buy a dog you would buy one for the cheapest price you could find and then blame the breed for all of it's problems. If you want a dog with a good personality, then do your research and find a good breeder. I know MANY sweet Pit Bulls. I know many good Pit Bull breeders. Many of you ignorant people who wrote in would be surprised just how many breeds originated from the then pit fighting dogs in England years ago. Why even the all loveable Bull Dog shares the family of the Pit Bull. Yep, you are all ignorant and the author of this article was RIGHT ON!!

of pit-bull bans and gun bans ...
it's people like Giles and sherry9898 who lay the foundation for these types of bans ... with their selective anti-libertarian stances, they'd love to see owners like Vick banned from owning pit bulls as well as your typical gang banger being denied the right to own a legal firearm as well. with that the absurdity of their positions is laid bare.

the pit bull is an apt analogy for the "assault rifle" and in this case it's obvious that both the pit bull and the assault rifle seem to bring the know-it-all "expert" aficionados out of the woodwork ... their superior knowledge entitles them to sound off on why only folks like them should have access to these dangerous things.

many naive but entirely rational folks like me simply fail to see the point of why Joe NRA needs his assault rifle or why Joe dog lover needs his pit bull ... both seem to be excess extensions of machismo, that are invariably preferred by bullies like Giles and Adams who couldn't last half a round with Vick in a real fight sans firearms and assault pooch. they feel their "expertise" with said items entitles them to a monopoly of force, apparently so Roger wouldn't have his way with them. why not try a martial arts class or two and keep a safer pet and weapon.

a pure lover of weapons or dogs should be happy with his Colt or Winchester ... or a golden retriever, collie, or other more controllable breed. and spare me the cases of the collies with which many a Lassie lover has had unfortunate surprises. most of us would prefer taking our chances with Lassie compared to some of these other dangerous breeds.

the fact that the libertarian streak in the typical dog-loving, NRA person doesn't extend to Vick in the case of the pit bull or to the gang banger in the case of the assault rifle makes me less likely to buy into their straw men about the slippery slope that any ban of either would create. if you think it's possible to keep these out of the hands of the irresponsible then it should be equally possible to keep safer weapons and pets in the hands of the aficionado that you see yourself as. if that position somehow makes me a liberal then so be it.

just the one case in SF where the lesbian woman lacrosse coach was killed in her own apartment by the exotic and vicious animal (presa canario) that the lawyer next door was keeping for his drug dealer clients is enough to say that regardless of my libertarian streak, the burden of proof should be on the pit bull lover and not the unsuspecting public:

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2005/05/06/news/state/21_05_505_5_05.txt

Breeding for characteristics
Dog breeders generally practice eugenics, although seldom with a lot of technical knowledge.If you want to produce mean dogs, or at least dogs with strong propensities to meanness, here's how you do it. You breed your meanest male to your meanest female, and keep doing that over a few dog generations. Eventually you'll produce dogs that are easily conditioned to viciousness. The ways of inducing this behavior in dogs are extremely unpleasant and repellent. That's why I have nothing but contempt for the people who breed and train dogs for dog-fighting. You have got to be one sick SOB to get into this c**p.

This is how such characteristics as the color of the coat, or something like the pushed-in muzzle of the Pekingese is kept in the breed. For a number of sporting breeds, it is necessary for a credible breeder to have x-rays done to qualify for an OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals)certification that the animal is acceptable in terms of its potential for various kinds of problems, such as hip dysplasia.(HD).

Here's a sample of the general advice OFA gives to breeders:

Breed normals to normals
Breed normals with normal ancestry
Breed normals from litters (brothers/sisters) with a low incidence of HD
Select a sire that produces a low incidence of HD
Replace dogs with dogs that are better than the breed average

Obviously, the breedeer has to have reliable information, to start with. One of the reasons people involved with purebred dogs want detailed pedigrees and certifications is to try to reduce the incidence of such problems.

The reverse of this process is what I described at the beginning about how to produce mean dogs.




reply to CT
What the H*** are you talking about? I'm a liberal, and I fail to see anything especially ideological in my post. Enlighten me, if you can.

sherry9898 expert on dogs but ...
totally misses the point.

your dubious expertise in your narrow little field doesn't give you the right to run roughshod over your neighbor or tell him how to behave towards HIS dog ... I have more respect for Vick and his gang of cretins than I do for animal lovers who presume that everyone else should love their dog as much as they do. if the animal lovers would keep their pit bulls away from my children as effectively as Vick apparently has done I would have no complaint. it's fools like Giles who expect visitors to their home to be comfortable around their little sticks of dynamite that scare me the most.

So, the libs
on this post are also partisan about..... dogs, as well as every other subject in which the writer happens to be conservative. Way to go pinheads!

Gestell
I agree with everything you said. An acquaintance of mine had chesapeake retrievers, which are known to be nice hunting dogs. But, the way these people raised them turned them into ferocious, dangerous dogs. These dogs were chained up and rarely see strangers. They would try to get through the fence to bite kids, just as some people say pit bulls do in their neighborhood.

As I said earlier, I just hate the word "ban" in a free society. Even some gun right advocates, of which I am one, are calling for banning the pit bull. I just don't understand it. You start banning one thing because some bad press, you will eventually ban everything, like they have done in socialist countries like France and Canada.

In the gun issue, you lock up criminals who commit crimes with guns, not punish law-abiding gun owners. Same with pit bulls. You euthanize the dangerous ones and leave the rest alone.

Teaching dogs
n>I guess what i'm really getting at is can you TEACH a Pit Bull to Hunt, like you could teach a Lab to Fight?<

You can teach a dog to do anything.

This guy teaches them to walk backwards, climb ladders, walk on a tightrope...

http://www.johnnypeersmuttvillecomix.com/index.html

Guide dogs must overcome their natural instincts and become eyes for the blind.

On the other hand, I assume dogs sent into a state of crisis would behave in a primal way. I've heard there is a large pack of feral dogs (mostly pitbulls) in MI. I imagine some of those dogs have become hunters just to survive.

Dogs learn quickly - it all depends on what they learn. I've trained my dog to sit when she spots prey as opposed to bolting after it. I've seen many critters I might have missed because when she sits, I look for it.

Dog mythology
First, to establish my dog credibility: For around 20 years I bred, trained, and showed one of the terrier breeds. I belong for a while to a training club and my little Australian terriers often found themselves next to the Rottweilers of a good friend of mine, or the bull terriers of another friend. Properly bred, properly trained Rottweilers and bull terriers are great dogs. What a lot of people don't understand about purebreds is that they have to be stable, controllable animals if they're going to do well either in the breed ring or obedience trials. The myth of the "high-strung" or "overbred" purebred is just that--myth.

Eventually Igot to know people with pit bulls, and found the same thing-dogs that make great pets, fine guard dogs, and all without endangering the families that had them.

Dogs are like guns--if you treat them responsibly, you don't have problems.

So I'm against this public opposition to any specific breed of dog. What's really going on is that there are creeps out there who know they can get a lot of money for pit bulls bred to be excessively combative, or abused into being biters. Why? Turn to another bunch of scum--the people who just have to have a mean dog to show off to their friends.

I've trained dogs, and, if I wanted to, I could probably make a Yorkshire terrier into an attack dog. I just love dogs too much to want to do that.

sherry 9898
Great article,,,, I guess what i'm really getting at is can you TEACH a Pit Bull to Hunt, like you could teach a Lab to Fight?

If so is it that much more difficult or easy on either side...?

The claim is they are bred for fighting.. can someone really train this aggressivness out of them or is it in thier DNA and only hidden by training..?

Pit bull education
For all these anti-dog people: The pitbull was not bred to be MEAN. These dogs have loyaly stood by their human families throught the creation of this country until this day. Because of the era when they were created, they were used and bred to fight OTHER DOGS. The opponent dog's handler would have to be able to inspect the other dog pre-fight. If the dog was aggressive to humans, it would not have been allowed to live after the fight or reproduce. Dog fighting belongs in the past, with slavery and other cruelties. However, todays purebred pitbulls have been bred mostly for confirmation and color, not fighting. Short of poor mental health, which is dangerous in ANY animal, a pitbull is and HAS ALWAYS BEEN a POOR GUARD DOG and a wonderful companion for the neighborhood children. Even pit fighting dogs generally went home to their farms after a fight, where they took on their other role as farm help and kid's companion. Like it or not, this is HUMAN history. In today's sanitary, round edged world, we might not understand why the pitbull was created, but we should take the time to learn the truth: These dogs are ONLY dangerous in the hands of a foolish or sadistic owner, and that would hold true for any dog. They don't eat the new baby, attack the deliveryman, or anyone else unless they have been trained to do so. And in that case, the human trainer is responsible, but the dog always pays the price. I have dealt with MANY litters of pitbulls, and the only owners with complaints are the ones who decided to chain their dog in the yard for 10 hours a day, kept it in the garage, abused it, or neglected it's health needs. The pitbull is stoic: he will take MUCH abuse, but he is smart, and eventually he will escape, and then you get a mentally unbalance dog who is terrified of humans and will see anyone as a threat. These dogs CAN and SHOULD be rehabilitated not killed. The owners should be imprisoned, but usually they get a fine and a new pitbull. To the fearful: ask yourself why GENERATIONS of Americans loved and admired the pitbull enough to make him a cultural mascot, and only in the past 20 years has this pitaphobia been rampant? The rise of gangs and the sensationalist tactics of the media are your answers. Here are some facts: You are more likely to be struck by lightning than attacked by a pitbull, there are 25 dogs commonly misidentified as pitbulls after bite incidents, and in England, where the APBT was banned, the dog bite statistics showed NO CHANGE. in America, the APBT accounts for 3% of dog bites, and has been proven by the American Temperment Testing Society as MORE STABLE than a Golden Retriever and German Shepard. The dog most likely to do your kids severe harm? The DALMATION. Look it up, and please educate yourselves before fear-mongering. Lives are at stake here.

My Pit Bull, Lucy
Lucy is the sweetest dog I own, but she is such a powerful animal. She can do more damage by accident than any of my other dogs can do on purpose.

copper
"the smaller dogs are actually more likely to do the biting then bigger dogs."

You are absolutely right. I have been bitten one time in my life, and it was a miniture schnauzer. Bit the shitt out of me, without provocation.

For the conservatives who are against most bans, such as guns, trans fats and everything else under the sun, don't join the lefties in their banomonium. The way to fix the problem is to stamp out illegal fighting and destroy the aggressive dogs that are deemed to be a threat to people. Eventually, Darwinism will take over. The bad blood will be taken out and the breed survives. Why do you supposed the giant breeds like St. Bernard, Great Dane, Great Pyrenees and the like are all such mellow dogs? Because as powerful as they are, they cannot afford to be aggressive and stay alive. At one time, the ones that were aggressive were destroyed, and the aggressiveness was bred out of them. That is the way to fix the pit bull problem, not banning.

In My Opinion -
The only way I can answer, as I'm not involved in dogfighting: I do see them "marketed" to a specific population. For instance the term "big head" is in many ads specifically selling dogs that are meant to end up in a pit.

I don't have time to search but I do know Pit Bulls have appeared in cover art for rap CDs. This is reaching a particular audience which is more prone to drugs and violence than would be reached by using a Country Western genre. Are you following me?

The reason that this has taken off in this demographic is undoubably the "gang" type of mentality. "I won't fight you, but my dog will..." type of person. What can I say?

Here is a great article that explains it much better than I. http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/02/06/060206fa_fact?currentPage=1

As for the hunting... That I can answer without a problem. Not every dog bred for hunting will hunt - ergo "That dog don't hunt." The southern shelters are filled to the max with abandoned huntin' dawgs of many breeds, so if they can't teach a dog with natural instincts to hunt, why would they try to train one who isn't likely to hunt?

The pit bull is a LOYAL breed, which makes them a great family dog, but also means they will fight to the death to protect their pack. Little did Michael Vick's dogs know they weren't protecting anything except his disposable income.

Great Article - Tired of the hype
Outstanding article. For those people who say Pit Bulls are killers and dangerous and whatnot. Do you really think out of an estimated 300 million American Pit Bull Terriers (not mixes or other bully breeds) that 4-5-6 bites/attacks per year is horrible? Compared to the number of small dog bites and attacks this is a puny number.

Get a Yorkie? That fellow hasn't seen the story of a Yorkie attacking a baby or causing an elderly lady to fall and smash her face on her cane.

The final point is, any dog can be dangerous or a problem if the owner allows it to be. Stop using myths, hype, out and out lies, to smear this outstanding breed of dog. How many well bred, properly raised, American Pit Bull Terriers have you spent time with? If your answer is, "none" or I have seen my friends, cousins, Uncle's dog then please, just keep it to yourself. Ignorance on fire is the most destructive thing in this world.

To the person who said stricter penalties will solve the problem. I doubt it. Dog owners the world over would whine about it until it was squashed. No one wants to take responsibility for their actions or the actions of animals in their care. That's the bottom line.

Bite statistics are not complete and inaccurate. Even the organizations who gathered them say they are out of date, inaccurate and are not to be used as a way of measuring what breeds are more dangerous than others.

Thanks again for a solid article.

sherry 9898
regarding your comments on Alpha and submissive dogs in every litter....

Why are the people that engage in this dog fighting business not using a really mean LAB or Yorkshire Terrier?
Why are they only PIT BULLS?

Surely we have really strong alpha LABS, Poodles, Terriers etc...

Also ,, why are there no Pit bull hunting dogs? Why can't we train them to do this? (remember it's all about the owner/handler)

I just don't know...
My sons have owned 3 Pits--actually American Staffordshire Terriers--between them. I understand that there's a difference but I'm hard pressed to tell you what it is. Their common demonstrated recessive trait has been a pathological inability to stay in their own yard. Two have met their deaths by automobile as a result. The third (neutered) is a 70 lb. lap dog--until a smaller male dog or a cat gets in the yard. What scares the Hell out of me is the future when my son and his wife have kids....

Ban everything, then we'll all be safe
Like all debates on TH, regardless of the topic, you can always separate the liberals from the conservatives. What started out as a debate on the guilt or innocence of Michael Vick has evolved into left versus right. Whenever killing is involved, the G word inevitably comes up. The next logical step would be the B word. Pit bulls kill. Guns kill. Ban the pit bull. Ban guns.

Will everyone please get a sense of proportion here? Records show that there were 118 fatalities caused by pit bulls in a 19-year period. In the same period, 67 fatalities were caused by rottweilers. Why isn’t anyone calling for a ban on rottweilers? Sorry I mentioned it. Now, the rottweiler will be on the endangered list. These numbers are so infinitesimal in a population of 300 million people. Yet, everyone is calling for a ban.

That is the liberal way. Ban anything we are uncomfortable with, whether it is guns, dogs, trans fats, smoking, SUVs, the list is endless. It is no coincidence that countries that use the B word to the extreme are the liberals’ most beloved countries, e.g. France, England, Canada, Australia, Norway. These countries have banned guns and pit bulls. To the liberals, that is progress. To conservatives, it is no surprise that these countries are no safer after the bans than they were before, just less choices.

You libs better stay out of the ocean until we can ban sharks. There were 62 shark attacks last year.

Wrong Again
The Pit Bull Terrier is an abomination.

"It’s sad that one of the greatest dog breeds ever to grace the planet, the American Pit Bull Terrier, has fallen into the hands of animal abusing idiots. "
Uh... it's not surprising at all since they were BRED for fighting.

The pit bull is a caricature of what dog was created to be. Only scum would pit dogs against each other (hence the term "pit bulls".) Likewise, it's hardly surprising that this activity is popular among the scum south of the border.

The value of a society or an individual human being is based solely upon his view of Man's True Companion. Where they disdain dogs (such as in moslem cultures) as unclean, they are scum. Where they eat dogs, they are worse than scum. Had I been one of the colonials with Mel Gibson when he conceded that dogs were tasty eating, I'd have put a musket ball between his eyes on the spot, along with that spoiled-bat kid of his, just to see the disease didn't perpetuate among my kind.

Dogs should not be put in the same category as "animals", unless you're willing to allow me to do the same for arab moslems, wetbacks, and other subhumans. While animals shouldn't be abused for amusement, dogs shouldn't be abused any more than humans. No other animal has done more for the progress of mankind, other than perhaps the horse (or one other I can't mention for fear of being banned for heresy).

"Not unless you really pushed them or threatened our family."

Like maybe walking down the street near your home...

The difference between a pit bull and a real dog is the difference between a warrior and a soldier; the difference between Pat Tillman and Mike Tyson, if you will.

SpayNeuter, I have to say, your comment title is appropriate.. if you replace "and" with "are".
Since your handle is "SpayNeuter", I am forced to conclude that you find mutilating human children to be an effective way to prevent unwanted pregnancies? You gave your children hysterectomies or castration to prevent impregnation? You approve of female castration to discourage promiscuity and therefore unwanted pregnancies? No? Yet you favor mutilating dogs. Simply, unbelievably, sick. The solution is the same in both cases; RESPONSIBLE owners. Parents controlling their children, masters controlling their dogs.


Reply to habermassive:
I find myself drawn to comment on articles that interest me and speak on matters where I can contribute something valuable.

Why are you posting a comment on an article which has no interest to you? Aren't there golf articles or landscaping articles out there for you?

And what is your point anyway? If your neighbor's dog is defecating on your property maybe you should talk to your neighbor instead of posting anonymously on the internet to a group of people who don't even know you. Just an idea.

what controlled experiment ...
the rest of us poor non-dog lovers have nothing other than our own personal and anecdotal experience to go on and may not wish to participate in YOUR expertly "controlled" experiments at socializing your dog using our time and at our expense ... especially while we're out in public spaces enjoying our own activities and don't wish to be sniffed at or snarled at. hint: if you're not "the dog whisperer" one mistake is way too many for us.

I'm an expert golfer but would never think of putting Astroturf on my neighbor's curb and hitting wedges over his house and into my own backyard ... yet many of these "neighborly expert dog lovers" have no problem letting Rover roam across my front lawn right in front of me and then allowing said animal to defecate on my property as soon as I'm out of sight.




a lesson about dogs
Every litter born to every female dog will include submissive dogs, alpha dogs and beta dogs… every litter, every breed. The SELECTION of these dogs is the important factor. Although I have never seen the inside of a fighting ring or studied the matter in any respect, I do believe the submissive dogs are killed and only the alphas (who will defend and fight) are left. So it is just as likely to get a submissive pit bull as it is to get an aggressive one UNLESS you are choosing from a population that isn’t random, i.e. the dog fighter’s population where you will find more aggressive dogs because the submissive ones are dead. As well, if you seek out THE SAME BREED in a shelter environment –namely one that does “temperament testing” – you will more likely find the submissive ones since the aggressive ones are dead.

So the breed is NOT the issue. It is the SELECTION of which dog, the one that comes to investigate something new or the pup that stands back, that determines the behavior. Nature intended for all of these types to have a place in the pack so they are constantly being born. Not every terrier born is going to be the alpha, willing to take on the task of defending the pack. I’ve seen submissive dogs overwhelmed with anxiety because they were submissive by nature, but lacking leadership.

If you take every litter and kill the submissive dogs you will end up with a very aggressive pack of dogs. (Dog fighters like this.) The stories and hype will be about this population of aggressive dogs, NOT a population that is truly representative of the breed. And as I’ve seen here, people will form an opinion about WHAT THEY EXPERIENCE, NOT what is true because to get the facts, they might actually have to have an open mind and RESEARCH the subject.

And to all of the wonderful folks who agree that MV is innocent until proven guilty, Did you even READ the indictment? Reading is Fundamental!

Pit Bulls and Stupid Fools
Wonderful article! Thanks for writing it on behalf of every one of the innocent and beautiful lives horrendously tortured and murdered by depraved monsters. My experience as an animal handler in NYC shelters for over 11 years confirms that Pits are hands down the most affectionate of all breeds. Many shelter workers adopt them. And that is the ultimately tragic irony in this unconscionable human failure of arrogance, contempt, indifference and disgraceful neglect of these precious beings. If your courageously outspoken article saves even one of these magnificent beings it will be worth every single word.

Thank You Sherry 9898 & Gee
It was so good to read some posts from someone with something constructive & fact based to say.

I was beginning to give up on the mindset here.

Sherry 9898, I couldn't have said it better myself, I was especially in agreement with your post on "responsible, capable dog owners".

If only there was some way to really make the majority of dog owners see that, I know there would be less for the media & these morons to harp on.

Best I can do is post where I can & teach my students what their responsiblities are.

I would love to see laws passed (and I am fighting for them) that will hold owners responsible for their dogs actions. I bet we see a LOT more people smarten up & train, socialize & fence their pets.
Some people won't get it until they are hit hard, either in the pocket or with their own freedom.

Proper training & socialization should be mandatory. The resuce group I am with stipulates that in their contract. I will not adopt out a dog I rescue without it either.

Time to Wake Up Folks,

The true blame lies at the OTHER end of the lead.

responsible, capable dog owners
>I do, however, recommend only responsible, capable dog owners for all these powerful breeds.<

Make that ALL dogs. The problem is that any idiot can get a dog. Puppy mills and back yard breeders pump them out by the MILLIONS no matter how many are killed in shelters for lack of space and good homes. You can get a dog from cragislist, freecycle, the mall, the internet, the local classified, flea markets and the Wal-Mart parking lot. Add to that fact, most people have NO IDEA how to train and care for a dog – and most of those people think they know it all – and you have trouble waiting to happen. No wonder pet overpopulation is what it is and situations like Michael Vick’s are all too common.

I've even seen the evidence right here. Having a dog requires so much knowledge of nutrition, illnesses, SOCIALIZATION (and I guarentee almost none of you know what that really means) and so many other things, few people are likely to learn and spend the time needed to have a truly well-behaved dog. Lucky for most people, dogs are wonderful animals and adapt so well. People ALWAYS train their dog. One way or another the dog is learning from you. Just because one person thinks it is just peachy for a dog to "jump up" and "hug" another person, good owners spend hours teaching their dog NOT to EVER jump up on a human being. (It is generally accepted good canine behavior to SIT when greeting a human.) So does that make that guy a bad owner? Not by today's standards, but the dog will be VERY confused if he ever ends up in the hands of an experienced trainer. He might end up in a shelter and be deemed "unadoptable just for jumping up to "give a hug!" But dogs love us and they accept us for being a little crazy. If you have ever looked lovingly into your dogs eyes, realize that goes against his instinct which is to fight if another being faces you head on... ALSO when you are playing a fun game of tug with your dog, realize also that is an insictive behavior drawn from the time a pack would pull against each other to pull apart their prey, limb from bloody limb.

personal examples
>Here are my personal examples that pretty much line up with everyone else’s experiences:<

Why does everybody place so much importance on personal experience? Why does anybody care about YOUR dog, YOUR neighbor’s dog, YOUR neighborhood? How does any of that relate to the issue at hand? Does anybody here understand scientific study?

Pit Bulls and Kids
I think the whole Pit Bull debate is representative of a widespread abdication of responsiblity.

For example, I posted earlier in this thread that "Jack", the dog in the "Little House on the Praire" books was beleived to be a Pit Bull. Years ago when I read those books to my daughter (when she was young enough to think it was cool to have dad read to her), I was struck by one story. The Ingalls were in "Indian Territory" in Kansas with no neighbors close by. Some men from the local Indian tribe had visited the homestead on a few occasions. "Pa" ordered Laura that Jack the dog be chained up when he was out hunting because if he wasn't there and the dog was loose, he would kill an Indian that wandered onto the property and that would be an incident worth avoiding. There's a scene in the book when two Indians do barge into the Ingalls home and young Laura is tempted to disobey and let the dog loose. Later that night, she tells her Pa that she "thought" about disobeying and was punished for it.

Think how far we have come. People in those days seemed to have so much more common sense and personal responsibility. Pa trained his dog to obey his verbal commands, but still knew his dog's limitations and took steps to prevent problems. Pa also trained his daughter to obey, to the point that the child felt overwhelming guilt for just having "thought about" disobeying her father.

Imagine what old Pa Ingalls would say about a society where many people can't rear a child or even a dog with much success. For all or our advances, I imagine that he'd say that we're not using the common sense that the Good Lord gave us, and we have no one to blame but ourselves when our children, or our dogs, misbehave.

OMG - White Fang is FICTION!
>That dubious distinction belongs to Pit Bulls alone.<

Ahem – ridgebacks were bred to hunt lions. I’m not sure of the particulars, but I doubt the humans wanted them to bring them back with a “soft mouth.” HA!

>Talk about ignorance, which is displayed with great frequency here and else where on the net.<

Scary isn’t it? Further proof this country needs mandatory sterilization of humans - nevermind the dogs.

Dogs vs guns
>But I have concluded that many people like to get some vicious dog, for "protection". Instead, get a nice 12 gauge and save yourself a lot of trouble.<

I hope your 12 gauge can wake you when an intruder enters while you are sleeping. And I've never heard of an intruder killing someone with his own dog, but hey, you keep that 12 gauge right by your pillow, sir.

Please read about the history of the animal we call the dog and realize, life would be a lot different had we not become friends.

Re Read White Fang, Please
In his classic novel White Fang Jack London describes a dogfight between White Fang and a pit bull named Cherokee in graphic detail. Cherokee practically kills White Fang and only the intervention of some kind hearted good samaritans saves White Fang from certain when pit bull Cherokee locks his teeth on White Fang's throat and practically strangles him. That chapter still makes me cringe.

Pit Bulls were only bred for one purpose--fighting and . This is not one of Paris Hilton's annoying little teacup critters she totes around in her oversized bag. The dog is a thug on 4 legs period.

Hey--maybe we should recall our troops from Iraq and replace them with an army of pit bulls. No contest--Al Qeada would surrender in no time and the war would be %

Finally! The out-of towners weigh in!!
Oh my. What a train wreck.

ditto to apbtast & dogmom4X! I can't believe I read all of these comments. In all honesty though I have to say I moved to the next post when I realized the post was 1) personal experience or 2) had a clueless author; so it didn't take too long.

Now if you can't pass this test, keep all of your personal experience to yourself because you don't know enought to HAVE an opinion.

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html

Now to answer to some of the ignorance I wish I never witnessed:

>the behavior in question is the exception, not the rule<

So if that is true, it stands to reason that more dogs died in the pit, than died at the hands of the fighters for not being good enough to get in the pit. Right? I wonder where we could find that information.

> That really says something about a lot of things ... why cops develop really rotten attitudes toward the rest of humanity for starters and why so many shots are fired in criminal forays. <

Whole new ballpark, but I'd like to state here that cops develop bad attitudes due to lack of education and powertripping.

Back to the dogs -

"I'm not a huge fan of pit bulls because of (their reputation) as a snarling vicious creature who can rip off your arm even if you're not threatening anyone. (I've read too many sad stories) about little kids being mauled and even killed by these dogs even though they weren't doing anything aggressive to provoke an attack."

That post speaks VOLUMES to anyone who can read.

more forthcoming...



re: animalgirlisback
Get your facts straight before you open your mouth.
I have been training & working with dogs for some years now.

The owners of these dogs your "friend" speaks of are the ones to blame. That is generally what you get when a dog is not trained &/or socialized. It is also the sign of an irresponsible owner. When I am getting a delivery, I make sure my dogs are out of the way, even though they are fully trained. Anything with teeth can bite is the number one rule & a responsible owner takes precautions.
I have a Rottie & a Pit mix as well as a Lab.
NEVER had a problem.
My choice of breeds are not me trying to "act tough".
I am not that interested in anyones opinion.

My Rottie & my Pit mix are registered Therapy Dogs. These animals go through strict testing before they are accpeted into the program.
ANY sign of aggression or fear is a disqualifier.

So, before you go running off at the mouth, gather your FACTS, not just your opinions.

People amaze me
I can not believe how much the media can influence peoples thoughts and ideas. Every one of you who "think" they know it all about APBT and AST never have owned one or do not have a clue about animals in general. Enviroment is proven to affect behavior in animals and humans. All my dogs do not fit the description of any of the terrible pit bulls you uneducated people think they are. Think about this, how many small dog breeds have you seen that will bark their heads off at you ar nip at your heels or try to attack anything larger than they are? Can you imagine that temperament in a larger breed dog? If there were 60 lb Chihuahuas I believe they would be on the top of the "vicious dog" list.

So for all you pit bull haters out there, educate yourselves on what a great breed of dog these actually are and until you meet a real APBT, dont judge from what you are told about them by other ignorant folks.

of guns and pit bulls ...
I think Vick managed to hit some raw nerves; any time you have PETA, Adams, and Giles in syzygy against you you're in trouble. as a libertarian Vick's dogs aren't cr***ing on my lawn like my neighbor's sans pooper scoopers and paper and I don't feel the government should have a monopoly on a little good-natured gambling among "friends." as long as Vick keeps everything to himself on his huge spread away from his neighbors and public; that being the operant issue he probably isn't doing anything wrong in my book ...

I have way more of a problem with the pit bulls in public spaces crowds: the ones who take them to the public beach with their Hannibal Lecter muzzles, the better to intimidate (I witnessed this one myself). this dog had every other dog and person nearby on hair-trigger alert while the tattooed gang-banger owner was apparently oblivious to all the commotion he was creating!

there have also been cases where kids' property being retrieved from the neighbor's yard (think of a ball over the fence in a suburban tract developments instead of an out of the way dog fight on the (Vick) mansion) that have led to a death sentence or a maiming. I've also heard of a neighbor "innocently" target shooting in his backyard managing to shoot his neighbor's kid who was innocently playing in his own backyard to death.

there are plenty of stupid dog owners and gun owners and as an owner and lover of neither I tend to notice this a lot more than the dog and gun loving crowd. take it from me; when I'm jogging in the communal public spaces I don't need to be socialized to your stupid mutt, you should train the thing on your own time and with people who will enjoy that experience and by all means don't let it c**p in my yard ... keep it on a leash and AWAY from me and if you want to target shoot join a gun club! I can't hit golf balls in the public park either ...

FWIW, I have noticed that owners of these dangerous breeds including apparently benign ones like Giles (and Adams in the case of guns)apparently enjoy the fear their ownership of those accouterments presents and engenders in their presumed enemies. the pooch or gun becomes an extension of a bullying or aggressive personality ... so be it as long as you remain legal and keep those accouterments out of my face unless I REALLY mean you harm.

Well, well
I always figured Doug would kind of like dog fighting since he loves to kill animals and considers a pile of offal in the woods to be beautiful. As for the “desire to posture himself as some tough guy”, Doug has the lock on that; his writing, art, web site and religion are so machismo, I swear I can smell his cologne from here.

Dog breeds
I have life experience with a variety of dog breeds, from poodles, to black labs that greet you by placing their paws on your shoulders.I'm 6'2". Rottweilers are protective, but very gentle animals. Can't speak to "pit bulls". What I care for now is a real mixed breed. A gift from my daughter and son-in-law. She turned out to be just that; a gift. The mother was a australian shephard/red heeler. Cute mix. The father of our pup, was the neighbors' registered, golden lab. Cleo seems to have inherited the best qualities from all three breeds. Healthy, energetic, affectionate, very intelligent, with webbed feet, soft multi-colored, redish brown and gold coat,even tempered, and did I say intelligent. You might have guessed, I'm a dog lover. Not an animal rights activist or even a volunteer at the pet shelter. It is just a natural progression from loving my neighbor to loving animals. I do have strong contempt for those that would force any dog or animal to go feral, just for the sport of it. Boxing is a guilty pleasure of mine. Watching that is. Stray too far from the profession and I don't care to participate. The world would be just fine if there were no more dog fighting, or boxing for that matter, and football would be just fine without Michael Vick.

Hound Dog
Nemo: "Pit Bulls were originally bred for fighting. That was the reason for creating this breed."

Hound Dog: Many breeds were originally bred to kill, e.g. Doberman Pinscher, German Shepherd, Rottweiler, Chow, just to name a few.

Re-read what I wrote. Pit Bulls were bred for fighting – whether it was bears or each other. No one disputes that other breeds were developed to kill. Dachshunds were bred to kill badgers, terriers were bred to kill vermin and other small animals.

None of the dogs you mentioned above, however, were originally bred to kill. Dobermans were bred as guard and watch dogs; German Shepherds (as their name implies) were bred to herd sheep and other livestock, Rottweilers (as Sekhmet never tires of pointing out) were bred to haul carts and herd cattle, Chows were bred as a general-purpose working dog for herding and hunting.

“You are not advocating the elimination of all these breeds, are you? In Great Britain, they have banned Pit Bulls. The Brits have a propensity to ban everything that freedom-loving people want. Not the kind of society I want to live in.”

Pit Bulls no longer serve an acceptable purpose. Since they were bred for nothing other than fighting and killing, that powerful instinct remains within each and every one of the pure-bred creatures. They should either be destroyed or bred out of existence.

“I can turn a Golden Retriever into a killer if I want to, easily.”

Not as easily as you fantasize, since you would have to modify the dog’s behavior to contradict its strongest instincts. On the other hand, a Pit Bull can be turned into a killer VERY easily…sometimes with no effort at all, because that is what it was originally bred to do.

“Pit bulls can be excellent pets, only in the hand of caring owners.”

For that matter, so can timber wolves if raised in captivity and kept in the hands of knowledgeable, caring owners. But that doesn’t mean it should be allowed to happen. Timber wolves belong in the wild, Pitt Bulls belong in the past.

We had a little mutt...
named Gracie. She just died of a strange canine condition known as immune-mediated hemolytic anemia.

She was the nicest little dog ever. She was a terrier-chihuahua (or something else) mix. We got her a few years ago from an animal rescue org.

Uncle Max
"I repeat
You can tell a lot about people by checking out their dogs. "

I tend to agree, although there are aometimes exceptions. We have all known people who ended up with a dog that was abandoned, given as a gift, or just dropped into a life in some unexpected way.

I know some people who live in a large condominium building and "inherited" a small and friendly rotweiler (are they the ones with the long snouts and short hair?") They have raised it very carefully, and there have been no problems so far, but the other people in the building are so spooked by it that it has cost them the comfortable social life there they once knew. In those terms, they regret keeping the dog, but now they have grown fond of it and can't find it in themselves to have it offed.

However, somebody wrote earlier that the awful stories have a disproprotionate number of certain breeds involved - I don't think we can deny that that means something - would you want YOUR three and four year olds playing around a rottweiler or other breeds of that reputation?

I guess I'm prejudiced!

For Pit Bull, Rot Lovers
I can't argue with any of you - I've never had either breed so have no experience.

However, it seems to me from what I read that these breeds are less predictable from others - also, as a long-time dog owner and dog admirer I tend to think that dogs can be hard-wired for certain behaviors just as human are. I know I'm generalizing but in fact it has ben proved by the genetic work on changing the temper of foxes that genetic tampering can affect behavior.(and appearance, by the way, --something that wasn't epected).

deb, good advice --
Our German Shepherd came to us through similar circumstances, but I think she may have even been abused by one of her many, many previous owners, just by how she acted at first.

But, and I swear, she only took a few days at our home to realize that it was actually really her home, and that she would be loved and cared for here, for the rest of her life. She is the sweetest, most loyal, loving, amazing animal -- without any extra obedience training or attention. She is a miracle dog!

I can only wonder if any Pit Bull in similar circumstances could act the same way.

Dogs require work
Part of the problem is that most owners do not understand the work that goes into creating a well mannered family dog of any breed.

I have adopted a German Shephard mix that I adopted through a shelter. Not only is she attending obedience class but I work with her every day on her commands. I also socialize her by taking her to areas where she will meet a variety of people.

Although I enjoy my dog, I have to admit that this is a lot of work. Loving your dog isn't enough. There are a lot of people who just suppose that their new puppy will automatically be a good family pet with no work done on the owners part.

Such owners end up with dogs chained up in the back yard or given to the pound.

I would imagine that the owner of a pitbull would need to put in even more hours of obedience training and socialization then the average dog owner.

And let's stop this LOCKJAW NONSENSE
which the press has publicized about a "pit bull" biting.

IT IS PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE JAW OF ANY DOG TO LOCK AFTER IT BITES!

Yes, some dogs have more bite power than others and this is due to the musculature of the jaw structure.

The "Pit Bull" certainly can do far, far more damage than a cheewawa, but not more than a German Shepherd Dog and as the panic - fueled by the sickos selling their papers and air time - will soon have that breed banned as well, what will the Police Departments do for K-9 Units?

Has anybody noticed that all of us are slowly being turned in to Chicken Littles by the MSM rather than having the actual problem - such as sadistic owners - attacked?

ATHINGORTWO- WAKE UP!
You are the one who is so full of it your eyes should be be brown!

Go check out the CDC statistics on dog bites befroe you start calling names, you loudmouth fool!

Myth: Responsible Pit Bull Owners
Mr. Giles, you are the ONLY responsible Pit Bull owner that I know of. Honestly, even before the Vick story, we had this conversation at work: Where are the responsible Pit Bull owners? Has anybody ever met a responsible Pit Bull owner? The overwhelming answer? THERE ARE NONE! Here are my personal examples that pretty much line up with everyone else’s experiences:

I have a new extended family member, thanks to someone in my family being stupid enough to marry this person. She has no job, pays no rent, pays no bills, has no license yet still drives, steals license plates and stickers, gives out the addresses of family member’s homes so the bill collectors send all her mail there, is probably on her way BACK to jail soon, and is basically a complete, nagging, psycho pain in the rear to everyone who has ever been unfortunate enough to even look at her.

She raises Pit Bulls.

The neighbors across my alley leave their trash -- complete with ignored late notices, open containers, diapers, fast-food wrappers, beer bottles, and broken toys -- strewn all over the alley. They put this crap over by MY dumpster, but never actually IN it, because they somehow managed to break theirs. Yours truly gets to clean it up. They often leave their back gate WIDE OPEN, and now also have a big hole in their fence, letting their two dogs roam the neighborhood.

Their dogs are Pit Bulls.

I was in a band with someone who moved away, got in trouble, did some time, moved back, and stabbed someone in a fight quickly after that. He used to lecture me on how it really depends on who owns the dog and how it’s treated, using his dog as an example.

His dog was a…you guessed it.

These are just more examples of people giving this breed a black eye, but I have yet to personally meet an actual upstanding, responsible, respected, trustworthy, honest Pit Bull owner. Wouldn’t it be great to hear tomorrow that the Pope owns a few Pit Bulls, and that he thinks they’re just the greatest animal? Or, the well-respected, popular, Christian Mayor of my town? I won’t hold my breath.

Mr. Giles, you remain the exception.

P.S. -- if you want a “Real Man’s Dog”, get a Chinese Pug like mine! The Pug, the German Shepherd, and Kitty-Cat get along GREAT with each other at my house. I was shocked to learn from our vet that the German Shepherd should have already beheaded the Pug and eaten the Cat by now. Instead, she is very protective of them. I guess it really does depend on the owner.

NemoParticularis
"Pit Bulls were originally bred for fighting. That was the reason for creating this breed."

Many breeds were originally bred to kill, e.g. Doberman Pinscher, German Shepherd, Rottweiler, Chow, just to name a few. You are not advocating the elimination of all these breeds, are you? In Great Britain, they have banned Pit Bulls. The Brits have a propensity to ban everything that freedom-loving people want. Not the kind of society I want to live in.

I do, however, recommend only responsible, capable dog owners for all these powerful breeds. In the wrong hands or without proper socialization with strangers, they can all be killers. I can turn a Golden Retriever into a killer if I want to, easily. Chain him up, starve him, beat him, etc. Pit bulls can be excellent pets, only in the hand of caring owners.

chr3354
"this case is very complicated as for me i am going to wait and see what evidence they actually have on michael vick before i cast my judgment."

I totally agree. There is a lot of emotion here. Most of the emotion comes from dog lovers like myself. Until all the facts are out, I will give Vick the benefit of the doubt.

Beside the emotion from dog lovers, I have seen similarities between this case and the OJ case. Yes, I am talking about race. People are taking sides already on racial lines. I hope when the facts come out, public opinion will be based solely on the facts and not what one thinks happened. In the OJ trial, after there were overwhelming evidence to the guilt of OJ, blacks continued to proclaim his innocence.

Vick's career and reputation has already been damaged beyond repair. Let the legal system take its course.

Dogs and Wolves
subpilot writes: "That's right ladies and gentleman, all dogs are descended from wolves. All dogs exhibit pack behaviour. Does that mean all dogs can be dangerous, yes that is true but it does not mean all dogs are dangerous."

Thanks for pointing out the obvious. If you will deign to re-read the posts in this discussion you will see that no one made that assertion.

"The Pit Bulls that are dangerous are the ones being over bred today specifically for dog fighting, not the breed as a whole."

Um...Pit Bulls were originally bred for fighting. That was the reason for creating this breed. Or is this too obvious for you to understand?

"Predjudice is caused by ignorance, remember?

So is the propensity for prattling on an on about that of which one knows very little.

All Dogs are descended from wolves
That's right ladies and gentleman, all dogs are descended from wolves. All dogs exhibit pack behaviour. Does that mean all dogs can be dangerous, yes that is true but it does not mean all dogs are dangerous. The whole these dogs were originally bred to fight is hardly worth a comment but I will try and clear up something. It doesn't matter, get it! It just does not matter. All breeds have suffered at one time or another. Back in the late 50's and early 60's there was such a demand for both Collies (Like Lassie) and German Shepards (Rin Tin Tin) these two fine breeds were almost ruined by too much in-breeding. They became nervous and unpredictable. Now they have recovered and are fine animals. The Pit Bulls that are dangerous are the ones being over bred today specifically for dog fighting, not the breed as a whole. Talk about ignorance, which is displayed with great frequency here and else where on the net.

The author is correct. The breed has gotten a bad rep. Some individual dogs should be put down, but not the whole breed. Predjudice is caused by ignorance, remember?

Re: Owners, not dogs are responsible
,Sekhmet writes: “Labs are hunting dogs, so they too are bloodsport dogs. “

As its full name implies, the Labrador is a RETRIEVER: it seeks out game that has been downed and returns the game to the hunter. Retrievers are are bred for soft mouths - the willingness to carry game without damaging it – as well as an affable disposition and a willingness to learn, to please their masters, and to obey. Since neither Labs nor Goldies actually kill the game but, instead, simply retrieve it, your use of the term “bloodsport” is needlessly inflammatory.

“ANY DOG CAN BITE. my point is it is entirely THE OWNER'S FAULT. “

And your point is wrong. While the owner of the dog can and will have a profound effect on the dog’s behavior, there is nothing the owner can do to change the NATURE of the dog. If the dog was bred to be an aggressive killer of other animals, that attribute will remain ingrained in the creature for the entirety of its existence. True, that aspect of its nature may never surface. Nevertheless, it is still there and, as history has so graphically demonstrated, that aspect of its nature can sometimes surface in spite of our best efforts to keep it under control.

“i have worked very very hard with my dog, and deeply resent your characterizing him as "bred to be a killer". he was bred to PULL CARTS and HERD CATTLE, like the greater swiss mountain dog. we don't have cows, but we have talked about building a dog cart for him.”

Time for a breather here. I never said that Rottweilers were bred to kill other animals. That dubious distinction belongs to Pit Bulls alone.

I appreciate the love you have for your dog, Egyptian goddess. And I have little doubt that he is a sweet and affectionate pet for no reason other than the impression I get that you are a sweet and affectionate owner. And that is as it should be.

“If you will not step up and be responsible, YOU should be punished, not the dog. Unfortunately, too many stupid people ruin dogs because they REFUSE to take care of them PROPERLY. Vetting and obedience should be MANDATORY for ANY dog owner.”

Agreed.

Re SekhmetSatRa Bite Statistics
Try this statistic:

"In one study it was reported that 42% of all dog related killings of human beings in the United States are caused by Pit Bulls attacks, yet Pit Bulls constitute only 2% of all dogs. 70% of those mauling deaths were of children. "

http://www.dog-bite-law-center.com/pit_bull_attacks.html

Not only are statistics of interest the 'source' is too.

We don't allow such animals in our town.

Pitbulls sweeter than CATS, sure, but...
Dougie claims it is the sweetest Dog breed.
DOGS, as a species (including Pitbulls!), are sweeter than any other animal:
- weasels
- bluejays
- ladybugs
- wolves
- jellyfish
- moose
- humans...let's save that for another time.

Domesticated animals are sweeter than the wild kind, but dogs are sweeter than:
- cats (a cat the size of my newfie would eat me)
- goldfish
- horses, (yes, horses)
- chickens
- bunnies
(Individual mileage may vary. I'm talking averages. & dogs are more maleable than maybe any other species than man.)

But to claim that PitBull Terriers are sweeter (on average, as a breed) than other dog breeds??? If I show you a picture of a pitbull & Newfoundland and you've got a better chance of being right if you guess the Pitbull is sweeter? Sweeter???
Pitbull v. collie?
v. Corgie?
Afghan?
Dachshund?
Bloodhound?
Mutt?

I repeat
You can tell a lot about people by checking out their dogs.

People kill people
dogjudge writes: "Guns don't kill people, people kill people. The same holds true for dogs."

Let's parse this a bit. If the same holds true for dogs, then the phrase should read "Dogs don't kill people, people kill people." That makes no sense whatsoever. You might as well say "Dogs don't kill guns, people shoot people" or "People don't shoot dogs, guns kill people."

Guns don't wander the neighborhood on their own and attack indiscriminately. Guns don't suddenly have an inexplicable change of mood and shoot the nearest person. For the analogy to hold true, every dog attack would have to be precipitated and controlled by the owner or handler and in most cases this just isn't so.

Dogs for Low-Lifes
When I worked in city government one of my biggest headaches was a constant problem with vicious dogs. It seems like every drug besotted jerk has to hide behind a dangerous dog. Yet, here in Illinois the dogs have a strong lobby, and each dog gets to kill 3 other animals or inflict one serious bit on a human before it can be declared to be dangerous. Breeds cannot be singled out. The dogs seem to know this. So, after jumping through a storm door, and inflicting a bite that required more than 90 stitches to close it up on a hapless mail carrier in Galesburg, a pit bull style dog was finally declared "dangerous". I have had several friends badly bitten by friendly and mild mannered rottweilers. One friend who has trained dobermans for years had one turn on him. I was once seriously bitten by an attack German shepherd, and resolved to kill any dog after that who was foolish enough to attack me. I have stomped and kicked a number of dogs senseless since then. I was almost stomped to pieces by water buffaloes over in the war that Darth Cheney studiously avoided, when a tracker dog attacked one of their calves. Its handler managed to get it back under control as we were lining it up in our sights. So, do I hate dogs? Of course not, but having a dangerous dog is, well...dangerous. It seems like some people like to infer that they are a bad @ss by having some nasty mutt around. Others like them to try to scare off swat teams from their drug distribution businesses. But I have concluded that many people like to get some vicious dog, for "protection". Instead, get a nice 12 gauge and save yourself a lot of trouble. My own view is that any dog that a reasonable person would consider to likely be dangerous of vicious should be the subject of a modest liability insurance policy, of say about $50 Million, or be destroyed. If some idiot wants a nasty dog, they can cough up a pile of money every month for the insurance and at least cover most of the damages their 45 legged mistake might cause. It would also help if it had to be confined in a kennel built to the luxurious specifications of a fort on the Maginot Line. Public safety trumps dog ownership. Show me where in the Second Amendment where dogs are mentioned.

Re: Fearmongering
Sekhmet writes: “Dogbitelaw is written by a lawyer who makes his money suing irresponsible owners... his facts are not. they are crap geared towards making him more money by fearmongering.”

As much as I despise lawyers for the bottom-feeding vermin they really are, the dogbitelaw website references the sources for the statistics it gives. Moreover, the numbers jibe almost perfectly with the very statistics for 1995 through 1999 given by Karen Delise on her own website!

And I suppose that Karen Delise is a purely objective observer of the attack pooch scene who (pardon the expression) has no dog in this hunt?

I don’t think so, my little Egyptian goddess. She boldly promotes two of her books: “The Pit Bull Placebo: The media, myths and politics of canine aggression” and “Fatal Dog Attacks: The stories behind the statistics.” The objectivity of her associate, Diane Jessup, is likewise questionable: Diane is the author of The Working Pit bull, The Dog Who Spoke With Gods, and co-author of Colby's Book of the APBT. She created and manages the LawDogs program in which Pit Bulls are placed with law enforcement agencies as narcotics and explosive detection dogs.

Apparently Karen Delise and Diane Jessup both have in dogs in this hunt and the dogs appear to be… Pit Bulls.

“more people own labs or lab mixes than pit bulls. Karen Deliese's book has the statistics about labs in it. her website, if you had actually bothered to read, rather than glance at it, shows the MIS-IDENIFICATION of biting dogs automatically as a pitbull. and, actually, the majority just say "mixed breed".”

Actually, the majority do not say “mixed breed.” Nevertheless, the fact remains that while Labrador Retrievers vastly outnumber Pit Bulls and Rottweilers, the latter two breeds are responsible for a disproportionately larger percentage of fatal attacks on humans. That much is borne out by data on Karen’s website.

Unless, of course, you are going to argue that all the data are irrelevant because people identify the guilty pooches as Pit Bulls and Rottweilers when, in truth, they should be implicating the evil Labrador Retriever – a dog so cunning, so diabolically clever, that it has succeeded in killing scores of helpless children and senior citizens over the decades, while using a Jedi mind control technique to trick people into perceiving that it is a Pit Bull or a Rottweiler. After all, Pit Bulls and Rottweilers were actually bred to be affable, and good natured while the evil Labrador was bred for vicious aggression, right? Perhaps that is the case on Sekhmet-World, but here on earth it just ain’t so.

“we will never agree, because you choose to hate the dogs, while i choose to place the blame squarely where it belongs, NOT on the dog, but the IRRESPONSIBLE OWNER.”

I don’t HATE Pit Bulls, Sekmet. I love all dogs (if anything, I hate cats). Nevertheless, I have no illusions about their nature. These dogs were bred for one purpose and one purpose only: to kill other living things. To argue that if we just give them lots of love and affection then everything will be alright is to live in the fool’s paradise of the contemporary liberal who would likewise argue that human nature can somehow be changed and we can all live in peace and harmony. It can’t, and neither can the nature of the Pit Bull breed, which no longer serves a purpose – Diane Jessup to the contrary notwithstanding.

Then again, if we can somehow train them to attack only Muslims, you can count me in as a big supporter of the American Pit Bull.

Dog Bite Statistics
You have to be EXTREMELY careful on how you interpret dog bite statistics.

First of all, and main point, is the actual identification of the dog breed. A couple of examples.

How many dogs out there are actually mutts that get identified as one breed, or another. German Shepherds for example are EXTREMELY dominant in their color patterns. I can't tell you the number of mutts that I've seen that people would identify as German Shepherds.

Who is doing the identification? I've worked with some police departments for drug detection work and search work. Most police officers couldn't tell one breed from another.

My favorite from a VERY long time ago. We had a Siberian Husky that got loose and was gone for a couple of days. After the third day, we got a call from one of the local police departments. They were sure they had found our dog. When I went to look at the dog, it was a BEAGLE!

Guns don't kill people, people kill people. The same holds true for dogs.

the problem is they dont let go-
Sure! cocker spaniels, dachshunds and chihuahuas have higher biting stats.
But its no big deal when these breeds bite-because their bites usually create only minor skin breaks.

But when a pitbull latches on to a person or another animal, they have to be shot or at minimum grabbed with a choke stick and subjected to cruel abuse themselves in order to force them to relax their grip-they only relax their grip to get a deeper grip. And by then enornmous morbidity (damage) and often death to the victim is the usual result. No other breed has this inbred characteristic-thats why only pitbulls are used for dog fighting

My friend had her arm nearly amputated by a pittbull last week -a dog which had always been "sweet" and "loving"-until it felt threatened by another dog in its "territory"
(walking along the sidewalk bordering its stupid owners frontyard)

I agree with the person who says the breed should be banned-meaning no "purebred" pitbull breeding should be permitted.

What's funny is how the owners of pitbulls talk about how "loving" and gentle " they are, when
the outraged public cries out...but as soon as the controversy dies down, they once again neurotically began boasting to anyone who will listen about how their dog can whip any other breed of dog, ad nauseum...kind of like an insecure little bpoy saying my "dad can whip your dad."

The sad truth is pitbill owners are often impotent rednecks with deep feelings of inadequacy.

We need to interbreed these dangeous animals to get rid of the "bite and not let go" behaviour trait out of them.

The safety of People and their pets are more important than the neurotic needs of punks who want a potential monster on a leash to feel powerful.


Cornpone


I have read
the same as Sekhmet. That the smaller dogs are actually more likely to do the biting then bigger dogs. I think Uncle Matty is his name. He has a web site about animals.

Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics
SekhmetSatRa writes: "Dog bites (non-fatal): Dachsunds, Chihuahuas and LABS lead. Fatalities: again it is LABS or LAB MIXES, often misidentified as "pit bulls" to sensationalize."


Where, oh where did you glean these little factoids, Sekhmet? I can believe that Dachsunds and Chihuahuas lead the pack for non-fatal bites as they are both nasty little freaks of nature. But to believe that Labs or Lab mixes lead the pack for fatal bites is asking too much.

I checked out both the sites you linked. If anything, Karen Deliese's website flatly contradicts what you assert. According to data on the website fatal attacks, 1995 to 1999)of the 84 fatal attacks reported, 25 of them (30%) were attributable to Rottweiler or Rottweiler mixes while 14 of them (18%)were attributable to Pit Bulls or Pit Bull mixes. Only 1 attack was attributable to a Lab.

The following is taken from dogbitelaw.com (http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html#Thedogsmostlikelytobite):

"Studies indicate that pit bull-type dogs were involved in approximately a third of human DBRF (i.e., dog bite related fatalities) reported during the 12-year period from 1981 through1992, and Rottweilers were responsible for about half of human DBRF reported during the 4 years from 1993 through 1996....[T]he data indicate that Rottweilers and pit bull-type dogs accounted for 67% of human DBRF in the United States between 1997 and 1998.

It is extremely unlikely that they accounted for anywhere near 60% of dogs in the United States during that same period and, thus, there appears to be a breed-specific problem with fatalities." (Sacks JJ, Sinclair L, Gilchrist J, Golab GC, Lockwood R. Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998. JAVMA 2000;217:836-840.)

The Clifton study of attacks from 1982 through 2006 produced similar results. According to Clifton study, pit bulls, Rottweilers, Presa Canarios and their mixes were responsible for 65% of the canine homicides that occurred during a period of 24 years in the USA. (Clifton, Dog attack deaths and maimings, U.S. & Canada, September 1982 to November 13, 2006; click here to read it.)

Other breeds were also responsible for homicides, but to a much lesser extent. A 1997 study of dog bite fatalities in the years 1979 through 1996 revealed that the following breeds had killed one or more persons: pit bulls, Rottweilers, German shepherds, huskies, Alaskan malamutes, Doberman pinschers, chows, Great Danes, St. Bernards and Akitas. (Dog Bite Related Fatalities," Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, May 30, 1997, Vol. 46, No. 21, pp. 463 et. seq.) Since 1975, fatal attacks have been attributed to dogs from at least 30 breeds.

Sorry Sekhmet, but your assertion just doesn't fly. Or, as my friends in the South would say: that dog won't hunt.

Not a great column
Sorry I disagree--this is not a great column. I don't like the idea that Douggie's daughters treated a potentially vicious animal as a four legged Barbie doll or some make believe pony they could play ride 'em cowboy on. What kills me is Douggie's flippant attitude, although by now I shouldn't find this at all surprising. A pit bull is not a toy, period! Douggie should be on his knees thanking Jesus that his precious daughters weren't hurt.

Great Column
Although I don't have any now, my wife and I owned, showed and bred Rottweilers for nearly 25 years. Given the name I use here, it isn't surprising to realize that I have friends who have Am. Staffs, Dobes, Rotts, and just about every other breed. I've also taught obedience for 30+ years. Our dogs were on TV numerous times, used as therapy dogs, and asked to do numerous searches by local law enforcement agencies.

Just as with guns, you're not going to control what type of dog some moron owns with breed specific legislation. These morons will get whatever type of dog they want. Why? Because many people are more afraid of aggressive dogs than they are of guns.

Although I praise the author for his column, I don't know if the general public is really going to make a pit bull association here. My guess is that most people are just going to make the association of some moron who was fighting dogs.

I do praise the column.

Treat the dogs with respect, please
I'm not a huge fan of pit bulls because of their reputation as a snarling vicious creature who can rip off your arm even if you're not threatening anyone. I've read too many sad stories about little kids being mauled and even killed by these dogs even though they weren't doing anything aggressive to provoke an attack. Having said that, the dogs should be treated with respect.The idea that Douggie's daughters dressing up pit bulls in cutsey outfits and then having them pull his babies around in wagons is just as sadistic as putting them in the arena to fight other dogs. Ugh! It isn't really funny and it's just plain wrong.

Pits
I own 3 pits. They are great dogs and I've never felt threatened by them, but they do their job very well...Protect the yard. That's why I bought them. Nothing, I mean nothing comes inside my fenced area if I don't want it there. This is a good thing. I like it that way. I have never been robbed, threatened, had property vandalized, or suffered unwanted solititation. Home defense is spelled D.O.G. and G.U.N. Life is peaceful and good.

Pit Bulls
The "Stupid Fool" is any bonehead who defends the breed as loving and gentle!
Chechk the attack records on people of these vicious animals.

Seems humans
... will go to almost any length to shift the blame for their shortcomings.

But blaming dogs is way over the top. There's no dog who can't be a good dog if raised and trained properly.

Some dogs are wrong for some people: a sweet, dithering person who can't take charge of a dog will be mismatched with a lot of breeds -- not just pit bulls.

Whether through this kind of mismatch, through negligence, or outright vicious cruelty, the rule stands: a bad dog is a case of "owner error."

Guys like Vick ought to be chained outside 24/7, kicked frequently, and have water bowls set just outside the reach of the chain so jackasses can stand around and laugh at them.

PIT BULLS
Too many instances of pit bulls maiming and/or killing people to ignore the fact that they are bred to be vicious. A young man came in to my office with his entire lower lip ripped off by his friend's pit bull pet.

My solution: Get a Yorkie. Sweetest doggies on the planet.

IMO, guys have big mean pit bulls to compensate for their "shortcomings." If you get my drift.

man and the woman with bandages
Marsha writes:
These dogs are vicious only when they are owned by sadistic people who train them to be vicious.
=====
Not always true, 65 years ago I rented a room in the basement in the home of a very gentle elderly couple who had one of these dogs since it was a pup. On at least three occasions I saw the man and the woman with bandages, because the vicious dog bit them.

We had a most wonderful Chow dog and later a Pomeranian for many years, and they have fuzzy coats. When my Beautiful Lady was under the control of Alzheimer's we didn’t have those dogs any more, but My Sweetie knew a dog was a fuzzy thing. She would be petting my daughters short-haired hound, and ask me, "Where is the dog?"

Good dog, bad human
One could argue until the end of time on the 'nurture vs nature' aspect of dogs.
Yes, some dogs of every breed are dangerous. Mainly because some dogs are large enough to seriously harm people.
In most cases, it's human stupidity for every kind of accident that happens. Starting with idiots who shouldn't be allowed to handle sharp or pointy objects, much less own an animal of any kind.
Another thing that bugs me are lazy bums who keep a dog on a chain rather than get up off their rears and build a fence around the house.
My main point is that this bum whose only possible redeeming quality is that he's good at football willingly participated in a barbaric sport that allowed him to stay clean and healthy while poor dogs (whatever their temperament or breed) died for his amusement. This disgusts me.
Personally, I think that he should serve jail time, be banned from professional football for life, and if not flogged then at least spend some time in the stocks.
The liberal mindset of 'being stewards of the Earth' resonates here along with the religious view of 'God granting us dominion over the Earth'. We all view ourselves to be responsible for the care of the world in which we live.
People who abuse animals such as this pimple which Doug reviles, are committing crimes against nature. This is a cowardly, despicable act of self aggrandizement and should be punished by taking away the means for this pond scum to afford his pleasures.
Ban him from football for life.
Bad human...bad, bad human.

Ms Kutzko - it is misleading to say that
any dog can be aggressive ... of course, hey, when I was kid, I owned several hamsters that I could only describe as vicious little killers - the breeding female had a habit of severing the throats of adult males and several of her own young in her cage during the night .. and then she sometimes partially ate her own young. And more than once she bit me in the finger, drawing blood. But, hey, it's not like, with this little bi*ch, I was in fear for my life, you know! So yes, virtually any animal can be vicious, including pomeranians and pekingese and shihtzus, even. Not to mention a lot of cats too!

But the key difference between other animals and pit bulls is that pit bulls are specifically bred to be capable, aggressive, and efficient slashers and killers. An angry chihuahua might, in the worst case, bite your ankle and possibly draw blood. In a worst case scenario, an angry lab might even take a small piece out of your hand. But a run-of-the-mill adult male pit bull, on the other hand, can easily - and I mean that with no exaggeration or hyperbole whatsoever - can EASILY rip an adult male human's throat right out of his neck; or slash a 12-year old girl's thigh down to the white of the bone; and rip the face off a 71-year old woman. The latter two injuries, by the way, were perpetrated on my neighbors within 1,000 feet of my house within the last six months.

So, again, sure, any animal can be or be made vicious. But few domesticated animals have the sheet power, capacity, and temperament for dealing out vicious, ripping, slashing death like your typical adult male pit bull. Denying that is denying reality. Any owner of such an animal who lets it loose on his neighbors or the general public is (or should be deemed) a vicious criminal.

Overgeneralization gets one in trouble
I think your article was a good one, and I agree with you that pit bulls can be fine animals. That said, you are wrong in that you overgeneralized and assumed that all pit bulls are just like your pit bulls.

In my town, we have had 20-30 unprovoked attacks, including the ones where the dogs ambush unsuspected victims. They also travel in packs and ambush people in their own yards, minding their own business.

They were bred killers of anything they don't like, and that happens to be anybody or anything who are not members of their own immediate pack. So if you live in the country, they are just great. If you live in town, they are always on the defensive. I personally don't care much for a nervous, defensive pit bull.

this case
is very complicated as for me i am going to wait and see what evidence they actually have on michael vick before i cast my judgment. just remmeber nifong indited the three duke lacross players with a rush to judge and little evidence.

all i know so far is that the stuff occure in a house vick owned

Dogs and People
My brother had pit bulls and his kids were raised with them. He has one now, along with another dog. He loves pit bulls, and defends them much like Doug Giles does. I have also seen very aggressive labs that I would not approach, not to mention very aggressive small dogs. People have to know, first of all that they own a dog- not a furry person. The dog must be given the correct amount and kind of exercise, the correct discipline, and love it requires. Then you'll have a good, happy dog. As for people who abuse any animal by training it to fight and kill, these people should be banned.

Cliff - to quote Louis L'Amour ...
... "A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do". That's why I said you're right to a point. Do what you have to do in terms of immediate protection with specific unrestrained dogs in your community .... be prepared to defend yourself and your family with deadly force if necessary (however, poison is bad because anybody can get a dose of it, including wildlife or even young children).

But at the same time, make sure you file the appropriate complaint with law enforcement. If they don't react aggressively, or if law enforcement agency says their hands are tied because your State of County does not have a strict liability law on the books for the owners of vicious dogs, then by all means, put the heat on your legislators or County Commissioners, as I have been doing of late, and organize your neighborhood or do what you can to make the law responsive and protective.


athingortwo ...
got a valid point. But if your kid is being chewed up or there is a threat that they will be chewed up ... I sure don't want to wait on a bunch of politicos; and the cops can only respond after the fact.
I have a friend who is a retired detective ...
he emptied a clip into a Pit Bull and the damn thing was still attacking a child. Finally, his partener got a clear head shot. So much for the effective ness of .38's and 9's. Guess what ... the dog was chewing up his owners child. The only thing the owner wanted to know was why they had to shoot his dog. That really says something about a lot of things ... why cops develop really rotten attitudes toward the rest of humanity for starters and why so many shots are fired in criminal forays.
Best defense is agressive self defense ... there isn't one good reason in the world for the nonsense you described to occur. At least, I can't think of a good reason why it should be tolerated.

Mr. Giles
The beloved Jack from the Little House on the Prairie books was believed to be an American Staffordshire Terrier, or Pit Bull. I don't recall Laura Ingalls mentioning that Jack ate baby Carrie . . .

Strict Liability for Dog Owners
athingortwo writes: "The only practical and effective solution is apply "strict liability" for ALL dog owners. If your dog injures or kills a neighbor, or a neighbor's animal, then you the human are liable, and you will pay a proportional penalty. If you own a dog that is unrestrained and then maims a 12-year old neighbor girl, like one dog did in my neighborhood, then you get the same penalty as for aggravated assault."

A sensible solution. Hear, hear!

Cliff - you're right to a point, but ...
taking out the dog does nothing to make the negligent owner pay an appropriate price for their malfeasance. I don't defend the dog per se, but a dog is just a dumb animal, a product of its breeding and its handling. That's why an aggressive legal system that applies strict liability to the owners of dogs is the best long term solution. Otherwise, your solution would inevitably lead to other forms of vigilante justice ... i.e., you'd have to apply your "pipe solution" to the owner of the dog, or he/she'll just go out and get another dumb animal and let it loose too.

All dogs are aggressive?
Saradog writes: "Dog aggression occurs in ALL breeds and types of dogs."

Yes it does, to a greater or lesser extent, depending upon the breed. Don't lose sight of the fact that all breeds of dogs today represent a departure from the wild genotype.

"Dog aggression can be created and manipulated by training and abuse."

Yes it can, but that does not belie the fact that some breeds of dog have aggression and viciousness literally hardwired into them while other breeds are hardwired with a docile and friendly disposition. This does not mean that a Pit Bull will always be vicious or a Golden Retriver always friendly. But it does mean that a vicious Goldie, much like a friendly Pit Bull, is the exception, not the rule.

"If I hear one more person proclaiming their Lab is so sweet, I'm going to throw up. Labs bite, just like any other dog. I have several friends with scars from Labs. These pronoucements make me think, "Thou dost protest too much".

Fact is that Labs and Goldies do have a sweet disposition. Perhaps if your friends took better care of their Labs they would not have been bitten. Perhaps if you got rid of your high-maintenance Pit Bull and got a Lab or a Goldie, you would not be so envious of your friends, who usually do not have to worry if their pooches will tear the face off a toddler.

"Breed specific legislation makes responsible, law abiding dog owners into second-class citizens, and kills unoffending dogs solely because of their shape. If you do not protest laws that make people into second-class citizens solely on the basis of the property they own (their dogs), do not be surprised when YOUR rights are abrogated."


Talk about protesting too much. Spare us the hyperbole, Sara. By your logic I could claim that restictions of gun ownereship or bans on certain types of weapons like rocket launchers and bazookas somehow make me a second class citizen. Pish posh.

Saradog - you're full of it!
If I hear one more pit bull apologist claim that there is no difference in temperament or physical capability based upon specific breeding, between pit bulls and obviously non-lethal breeds ... i.e, that there's no difference between the average pit bull and the average lab or retriever ... then I've just heard another idiot spew forth.

Laws that restrict breeds do not make their owners into second class citizens. Any more than laws that restrict the possession of hallucinogenic or addictive drugs make their "owners" into second class citizens. That's a really stupid and ridiculous argument.

On the other hand, I agree with you that laws restricting breeds are not effective, because any breed can be manipulated to fall outside whatever legal machinations are required to "define" a breed.

The only practical and effective solution is apply "strict liability" for ALL dog owners. If your dog injures or kills a neighbor, or a neighbor's animal, then you the human are liable, and you will pay a proportional penalty. If you own a dog that is unrestrained and then maims a 12-year old neighbor girl, like one dog did in my neighborhood, then you get the same penalty as for aggravated assault. If your dog mauls and kills a neighbor walking on a public road in front of her house, as another dog or dogs recently did in my neighborhood (the dog's handiwork was so vicious, the poor woman's face was virtually ripped from her skull, requiring the use of dental records and DNA for identification), then you get the same penalty as for manslaughter.

When all those owners of lovable pit bulls and rottweilers, as well as mixed breeds or any kind of vicious dog, begin to realize that they will have to do hard time if they let their adorable pets run loose and hurt or kill someone, then I expect we'll see a lot less of that negligence going on.

Bully breed
Pit bulls are bred to be killers. They are guard and attack dogs. It's ridiculous to pretend that they are just like any other dog. Then these morons use AmStaffs as pets and wonder why their killer dogs attack neighbors. If a moron wants to own an AmStaff and it attacks or kills him, fine. Just don't allow these dogs out in public to terrorize other dogs and people.

athingortwo
this is why ordinarily law-a-biding folks poison and shoot these animals. I had one neighbor who ran one through with a pipe, this takes an inordinate amount of strength.
Anyway, it's that simple ... you can't stand idly by while bad guys do bad things and anticipate good results.

Good points abound...

But, it always comes down to immoral Democrats ruining a good thing... Lets face it, only immoral people would fight animals in this day. And, who ruins a good thing (breed) for everyone... Lefties!

My neighbor's Pit Bull isn't mean, it's cute. But, they are living off taxpayer's welfare and are able to buy "Pit Bull Bling".

We must protect these damn lefties from themselves.

Animals kill because of sin?
Stew writes: "dogs (or any other animal for that matter, including humans) are not born to kill. They kill as a result of man's fall from grace, because of SIN. There was no death prior to Cain killing Abel. So anything created prior to that didn't have a natural instinct to kill."

Interesting. So what, precisely, did carnivores such as lions eat BEFORE the Fall of Man, Dr. Bible Zoologist? Grass? Berries? Not bloody likely...their teeth are designed for ripping and chewing flesh. Their digestive and excretory systems are designed to process flesh, blood and bone - not vegetation.

Or are you proposing a kind of Divinely-directed punctuated equilibrium wherein the Almighty created lions and tigers with cows' teeth and herbivorous digestive systems BEFORE the Fall then, presto! instantly mutated the creatures into fully functional carnivores?

If so, then the change is not the natural result of sin entering the world but rather the result of direct Divine intervention. However, I don't recall any passage in Genesis wherein the Almighty mutates herbivores into carnbivores after the expulsion from Eden.

Please refrain from posting such foolishness. You only serve to give conservative Christians a bad name and add fuel to the fires of the likes of Michael Moore and the DailyKos crowd.


Doug Giles' article
People have so much incorrect information. Media hysteria and political misinformation abounds.

The average "pit bull" is a cross- or mixed-breed dog. It is not a breed. This type was bred to be a farmer's helper, herding and controlling livestock. The dog had to be very human-friendly, since it lived with the farmer and family. It was not created for fighting.

There are "pit bull" therapy dogs, "pit bull" service dogs, "pit bull" search and rescue dogs and "pit bull" police K9s. These dogs are intelligent, focused and take very well to positive training.

Dog aggression occurs in ALL breeds and types of dogs. Dog aggression can be created and manipulated by training and abuse. Other breeds of dogs were stolen from Katrina kennels and fought by low-lifes.

Why do you think dog fighters kill dogs, as Vick is accused of doing? Because they won't fight.

Dog fighters are COWARDS. They won't get into the pit and fight to the death themselves. They make their dogs take the pain and death for the sake of their own egos, and money. They are sick examples of one of the lowest levels of human behaviour.

Dog fighting is a culture of money and violence that needs to be wiped out. It's a culture of psychopathy.

If I hear one more person proclaiming their Lab is so sweet, I'm going to throw up. Labs bite, just like any other dog. I have several friends with scars from Labs. These pronoucements make me think, "Thou dost protest too much".

Human aggression has nothing to do with breed. It is entirely the responsibility of the dog owner, how the owner trains, controls and socializes the dog.

Breed specific legislation such as that in Dade County, FL is ineffective, unworkable and fiscally irresponsible. It has been a failure everywhere it has been tried.

Breed specific legislation makes responsible, law abiding dog owners into second-class citizens, and kills unoffending dogs solely because of their shape.

If you do not protest laws that make people into second-class citizens solely on the basis of the property they own (their dogs), do not be surprised when YOUR rights are abrogated.




Re: Uwcharlie
uwcharlie writes: "will the posters who always are attacking Doug Giles go to another site?"

Why would anyone do that when Giles'articles are on Townhall.com? Honestly now, you sound like a whiney, thin-skinned liberal, Chuck. Doug's a tough guy...he can take it.

"Doug may go over the top on using metaphors but his Christianity and outlook is without doubt sincere and he has the right idea about the wrongdoers."

I'm sure no one here doubts the sincerity of his Christianity, Chuck. It's his style that's annoying.

"Those who are always complaining about Doug's methods must have doubts about themselves."

Another classic liberal tactic: those who disagree me have a psychological problem.



Pit bulls and their owners
"Pit bulls" (or "American Pit Bull Terriers") - uhhh, where do you think the name "pit bull" came from, Mr. Giles?

The name "pit bull" came from the fact that this breed and its ancestors were bred, beginning in ancient Roman times, specifically to fight to the death in pits ... against bulls (bovines, that is), bears, horses, etc. ... and eventually the English successors to the Romans refined the breed specifically for fighting each other in pits. And then they brought their pit bulls to America where they morphed into American Pit Bulls, and several other mongrel and related breeds.

Therefore, no matter how sweet your dog may seem to you - although, I note that you also state that this fine sweet animal will send you straight to your maker if it perceives any threat ... so I'm wondering, exactly how do you control the dog's perception of threat? - this dog was bred for one purpose and one purpose only - to kill other dogs and large animals, including humans.

I agree with Mr. Giles that it is the breeders and owners who are at fault, not the dogs, for their vicious behavior. But that does not excuse any owner of a pit bull - including you, Mr. Giles - from responsibility for the fact that the entire reason the breed exists is to viciously rip and kill other animals.

The physical traits of the breed - extreme brick-like square jaws with heavy teeth, well muscled throughout the body, low stance, forward-weighted ... these are all the characteristics of a dog bred to attack and kill other animals. This dog was not bred to retrieve, or to hunt, or to sit on your lap. This dog was bred to rip flesh and kill.

Can any other dog revert to the same aggressive behavior exhibited by pit bulls? Well, yes and no. If other breeds or mongrels are abused by their owners, or are specifically trained to fight and kill, or if they collect into free-running packs and exhibit the "pack mentality", many other dogs can in the right circumstances be vicious. But excepting a handful of other breeds, such as rottweilers or dobermans, most breeds of dogs were not developed for the special purpose of shredding flesh, aggressively attacking, and killing other animals.

So, all these pit bull lovers - including Mr. Giles - need to stop their whining about "breed persecution". If you can't stand the attention and criticism that goes with a pit bull, buy a lab or a retriever that'll gladly lick you into submission. If you insist on owning a breed that was purpose-bred to kill animals and humans, then live with the negative attention, and for gosh sakes, control your dog. If you let that animal loose on your neighbors (as so many do around my neighborhood), then be prepared for more than criticism, because you're likely breaking the law.

Oh, and by the way - in the last year, I and my leashed golden retriever were attacked on a public road by an unrestrained male pit bull, which prompted me to file a complaint with the local animal control agency. That very same pit bull, a few months later, attacked a neighbor girl, all of 12 years old, ripping her leg open with his teeth down to white bone, putting her into a hospital for 10 days. Then a couple of months ago, another neighbor of mine - a 71-year old woman - was mauled and killed by an unidentified dog or dogs (according to the official autopsy report). Witnesses say that her next door neighbor had owned a pair of dogs - a pit bull and a boxer mix - that had free roam of the neighborhood (I'd seen them on my property several times), but that both dogs mysteriously disappeared from the neighborhood about the time the elderly woman was mauled to death. The owner of said dogs told the investigating sheriff's deputies that she does not know what happened to her dogs, or where they went.

Yeah, right.

So, this business about vicious dogs and negligent owners is of more than academic interest to me and my neighbors.

I don't believe the answer to this problem is to outlaw the breed (as they apparently did in England). Rather, the best approach is aggressive law enforcement based upon a standard of strict liability for dog owners (i.e., if you own a dog, and it maims or kills your neighbor because you did not control it, then you go to prison for a long time, period).

If the pit bull breed were outlawed, smart breeders would simply create a new, even more vicious breed to replace the pit bull.

Nevertheless, enough with the feigned surprise and dismay that people mistrust your dangerous dog, Mr. Giles. You know better.


Right Cliff...

Pit Bulls are a ghetto status symbol... my neighbor with small children have one. It's like "Gangsta bling". These are morons... believe me I see it first hand.

And, right again, the breeders are pumping these dogs out like a Ford assembly line. I'm not for banning them... but they should be limited, since they're now bling. These dogs are peppered across the Detroit area... and in some areas, the Post Office will not even delivery mail.

When the Democrats denounce morals, they end up needing to protect their immoral constituents with regulations.

I don't want a dog that is ..
going to bite anyone. I don't need the protection and I don't trust an animal that is bred to mean. I can defend myself and as I say to my wife .. buy a weapon and learn to point and shoot. Most gun owners don't point and shoot at innocents, there isnt the possibility of error.
Sorry Doug, lots of folks who buy these animals are anti-social morons and the breeders are following the money trail. Folks being mauled by animals is really bad news.

It Amazing....
the level of ignorance some people have and don't know it. Blackthorne dogs (or any other animal for that matter, including humans) are not born to kill. They kill as a result of man's fall from grace, because of SIN. There was no death prior to Cain killing Abel. So anything created prior to that didn't have a natural instinct to kill.

Pit Bulls
I keep hearing what wonderful pets these dogs can be but our across the street neighbor had one, treated it well,and yet when this dog got loose he came charging after our Sheltie and he wasn't coming just to sniff. The owner, fortunately was able to grab him before he hurt our dog and you would never convince me to have a pit bull especially around children. I too believe they will eventually injure someone. Does that mean that breeding them for dog fighting is right,not by any stretch if the imagination. I just don't want them anywhere near me or those I love.

A couple of points
#1, will the posters who always are attacking Doug Giles (jesus c, this time, though there is always someone else whenever Doug writes on Sundays) go to another site? Doug may go over the top on using metaphors but his Christianity and outlook is without doubt sincere and he has the right idea about the wrongdoers. Those who are always complaining about Doug's methods must have doubts about themselves.

#2 However, as much as I support Doug, his reference to Life magazine having pit bulls on magazine covers during WWI has to be a misprint. Life magazine didn't come into being until at least 1936 or 1937, not sure of the first one, but certainly it wasn't WWI. For sure, he must have meant WWII.

Delenda Est
Ah, Doug Giles...the poor man's Dennis Miller. He of the trite and goofy analogous phrases ("schlepped this pebble"? Gimme a break, Doug). In perfect cadence with an ongoing and tiresome crusade to promote his weight-room version of Christianity on testosterone, Giles stumbles over himself in an effort to prove his manly-man bona fides by defending the indefensible.

Blackthorne astutely observes that which Giles blithely ignores: Pit Bulls were BRED for fighting to the death. They are physically and temperamentally hard-wired for aggression and vicious combat in precisely the same way a Golden Retriever is hard-wired for patience, an affectionate temperament and a powerful urge to retrieve things.

Can a Pit Bull be a gentle, tolerant and affectionate family pet? Absolutely, for the same reason a Golden Retriever can be turned into a vicious killer. However, in both cases the behavior in question is the exception, not the rule, and Pit Bull lovers understandably lose sight of this fact.

Golden Retrievers and many other breeds of dogs are affectionate and non-aggressive BECAUSE of their nature; pit bulls that display a similar loving and peaceable temperament do so IN SPITE of their nature. Therein lies the difference.

Perhaps this analogy will help: Christianity and Judaism are inherently peaceful and non-violent religions that inculcate in their followers a temperament that is generally tolerant and peaceful. Islam, on the other hand, is a violent and barbarous belief system that preaches world conquest and conversion at the blade of sword or the barrel of a gun. Christians and Jews who wantonly injure or kill the innocent do so IN SPITE of and in direct opposition to, the tenets of the Judeo-Christian belief system. On the other hand, Muslims who wantonly injure or kill the innocent do so precisely BECAUSE their belief systems tells them to do so.

Are there violent, wicked people who openly profess the Christian or Jewish faith? Perhaps, but their numbers are very few and far between, as it is nearly impossible to reconcile death and destruction of innocents with either the New Testament or the Torah. Moreover, Christians and Jews in general simply will not tolerate such aberrant behavior.

Are there violent, wicked people who openly profess Islam? Absolutely. Their numbers are terrifyingly large and understandably so, since the Koran itself preaches jihad against all unbelievers. Moreover, Muslims in general often express support for such behavior. To deny this is to deny reality.

What about the “good” and “moderate” Muslims? Like affectionate and well-behaved Pit Bulls, they do exist. However, they are few and far between and represent the exception rather than the rule. Moreover, while many of these so-called "moderates" openly profess to reject the present global jihad, a great many of them have often expressed, in private, their own personal support, or at least tolerance of, such activities.

Much like Islam, Pit Bulls serve no peaceful purpose but instead are dangerous, vicious creatures whose instincts tell them to attack and kill.

Much like Islam, the Pit Bull must be destroyed.

My experience with Pit Bulls
is that they are very smart and depending on how well they're trained, can be a very loyal family pet, OR a vicious, out of control weapon.

My two adjacent neighbors have Pits and Rots, and they serve their purpose in this area by keeping those who don't belong, outside their fences. With kindness, and treats, I've trained these dogs not to bark or be aggressive to me and my family. They used to carry on ferociously if they detected me moving or talking in my backyard, but once they got to know me, they know they only "threat" posed by me is if I run short of treats.

These breeds are just like children. If you don't teach them manners and respect, they'll run wild and have the ability to cause fearsome damage, just like an out of control child. One neighbor is even slightly jealous, because when I go over for a visit, his Pit, Bruiser, and Rottie, Daisy, receive me into their yard like a long lost friend and eagerly obey my commands while ignoring his.

Bruiser gets out occasionally and during one adventure last year was set upon by a pack of javelinas, which ripped him up almost 300 stitches worth. Where did he drag himself back to for aid and comfort? My back gate, knowing his ole buddy would be home and ready to care for him.

In the case of any of these dogs, it's been my experience that when trained with love, they're great, but when taught to hate, they're a loaded gun with a hair trigger. You can always teach a dog, it's the people that can't be trained.

I hope Michael Vick gets 3-4 years in a dog run sized prison cell.


Turning Good Into Evil
Mankind has a habit of turning good things into evil.Romans 2:25 "who changed the truth of God into a lie.. " 26: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections." 29: "Being filled with unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, debate, deceit. malognity, whisperers,"

Those dogs are the ......
...sweetest, most loyal, affectionate, intelligent creatures that the Creator put on this Earth for man's pleasure. It disturbs me to know that someone would go to such geat lengths to destroy this animal's basic good nature.
These are dogs that will let you know you've hurt their feelings.
This is a dog that will co habit the same house with a cat for two years, until the cat went out for it's nightly prowl and never returned, the dogs were blameless, asleep inside that night. After losing two other cats previously, I decided to stop providing anymore fox or coyote food after the third.
This is a dog that will tolerate life inside the same house with two Jack Russell terriers nippings at its ears and flanks, with hardly a complaint.
This is a dog that craves human affection, letting you know continuously that it is there and in need of some.
Yes, this breed is strong. Yes, this breed is agile. Yes, this breed has a tenacity rarely ever seen in other dog breeds, but they are incredibly gentle and delicate. I'm more apprehensive handing a morsel of food to my son's Chocolate Lab than I am extending a chunk of grilled steak to my pit. I know I'll still have my fingers after the pit swallows her food, I'm not so certain about my fingers after the Lab.

this time I mean it
With the reps pits and rotties and dobies have it is an open invitation for backyard breeders to do their thing and so you have increased INbreeding, in some cases brother to sister, mother to son, father to daughter, the result being dogs who are unstable at birth.

1 more thing
Where I used to live there was a couple down the street who had a rottie they kept on a thick chain all the time. The dog had obviously been brutalized by its owner - "Look at this dog. He'll tear the s... out of you but he's scared of me. Ergo I'm BAAADDD."

An old, familiar and pathetic story.

BTW - The couple had a baby and (I was gone by then) the day they brought the baby home the dog growled at it and (Grace a Dieu) the dog was gone before the sun set.

I've had labs for the last 29 years.

SSS dogs - Sweet, Silly and Sappy.

my 2 cents
Certain breeds are bred to have certain characteristics. Pit Bulls, Rotties and Dobies are bred to be aggressive. If they are raised properly by intelligent people (and NOT back-yard breeders) in most cases they are fine. I don't question those who have described their pits, dobies and rotties as good and gentle dogs, but in the WRONG hands they can be ruined, and in the process the reputation of the breed is ruined.

It has been my experience that you can tell a lot about a person by observing his dog(s).

Evidently
Mr Giles has forgotten [or choses to ignore] the how and why the breed was created...for fighting -- and killing -- in the dogfight pit.

These dogs and others such as the Rottweiler serve no legitimate purpose on this earth, in MHO, and should be scoured away along with those who promote, bet on, organize, contribute to, and/or provide the animals for the despicable "sport" of dogfighting.

These dogs are born and bred killers. Over and over again they are featured in news stories of vicious, unprovoked attacks on children and adults alike.

Yes, I too had a Pit "protecting" me from birth to a couple years of age. Mom destroyed her when she turned vicious and started attacking anything, everything -- and, more importantly, EVERYONE -- who entered or approached our yard. Owners have little to do with a dog turning bad; they just do it on their own.

The question is, exactly when will they turn? Usually, some neighborhood child is the one who finds out...

Any dog CAN be sweet OR MEAN.
Just takes a different owner/set of circumstances

For every GOOD dog/there is a BAD dog of that breed.

It's almost like they say about guns. To paraphrase: Dogs don't just bite people, their owners LET THEM BITE PEOPLE.

It's a shame about the ban, but the dogs MOST likely to be involved in any human bite are: pit bulls, rottweilers, dobermans and shepherds. Which NOT coinsidentally are also the ones mostly commonly found in pit fighting.

Until we get rid of the BAD people, we can't bring back the GOOD dogs.

Pit Bull
Using the Pit Bull, or any animal, to fight is not a sport. It is just cruel!

HMMM
So the Pitbull will protect you "with it's life if I am threatened"...

Great,,, I'm sure the dog (may) protect you from your (attention sucking) new child, an annoying neighbor, or that dangerous stray cat..
These dogs are not only BRED for fighting but they have amazing skills of discerning when "your life is threatened"..
Not my LAB,, he just licks everybody.. me, the wife, kids, postman, neighborhood busybody, even those threatening me.... Funny thing they end up not threatening me and they really like the dog....

Pit Bulls
Unfortunatly, just being in their presence with their owners is enough to sometime set them off! They are a dangerous breed and their blood line needs to be restricted.

Loving dogs
I feel the same way about my Rottweilers. Beautiful, loving, lovable, friendly dogs who are only dangerous if you mean me harm.

Vick makes me sick. I agree with Marsha.

Pit Bulls
I totally agree with you. I volunteered at an animal shelter in New Orleans after Katrina, and I handled several pitbulls there They were the sweetest dogs ever, and none were vicious. One in particular, a female, that I could tell had been abused, her legs had been broken and not healed back properly. She would roll over on her back for me to rub her belly every time I came around.

These dogs are vicious only when they are owned by sadistic people who train them to be vicious.
I wish everyone could read your article. I am arguing on several websites right now about this, because everybody thinks they KNOW that these dogs are predisposed to be vicious.

I hope Michael Vick pays dearly for what he has done to HIS pitbulls, he shouldn't be allowed to ever own a dog again, and definately should serve some prison time.
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