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Saturday, September 23, 2006
Doug Giles :: Townhall.com Columnist
Imprecatory Prayer: The Intercessor’s Elephant Gun
by Doug Giles
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I hate to ruin your light summer beach reading, but America and much of the world are still in deep yogurt when it comes to the war on terror. As much as post-moderns want everyone to sing, We are the World, in some all-religion-encompassing global hand-hold and just move on, I’m afraid radical Islam is not going to be a part of pomo’s desired altruistic music video.

Radical Islam is incorrigible, period. So, face it and embrace it. We are not going to convert or appease these cats. We have nothing they want. There is nothing to negotiate. They want us exterminated. Capisce?

That said, what do we, Christians in particular, do when faced with an implacable radical enemy? Just sit around sing, Kum Ba Yah, and hope these bad guys will leave us alone? That’s what a lot of five-watt light bulb, spiritually neutered believers are doing. Just sittin around, hopin and wishin or worse yet, ignoring the viable millennial threat of militant Islam. I, for one, will not take a passive stance against this aggressive enemy.

You cannot be lame and win this game with these guys. So, as a Christian, I suggest the following:

One: Back President Bush and his aggressive armed attitude against terrorists and terror supporting nations. Make that the main focal point for your vote during the next election. Picture this when you step into the voting booth this November: some fluctuating, wait-on-the-U.N. type of guy in the Senate while one of Osama’s droogies is arming a nuclear suitcase in your back yard. Take that image with you to the polls.

Two: Push for cinching our borders tighter than a fat guy's belt after an All-You-Can-Eat beef rib blow out at Tony Roma’s.

Three: Aggressively support the rooting out of the multitudinous terrorist cells that are concocting their villainous crap in our very own cul de sacs.

Four: Make it ridiculously impossible for a pro-radical Islamic professor to pee in one of our university’s bathrooms, much less teach in one of our classrooms. And finally, most importantly,

Five: As people of faith, dust off and use what’s afforded to the believer within the Old and New Testaments, namely the imprecatory prayers.

What is an imprecatory prayer?

It is a prayer asking God to crush a clear enemy of His, an enemy which is an aggressive adversary of freedom and peace loving people. Yes, Mr. and Mrs. Precious Moments Figurine Collector, the Bible is filled with maledictions prayed by saints and speedily answered by God against violently impenitent enemies of liberty and righteousness. Here are a couple examples:

“Break the teeth in their mouths, O God; tear out, O Lord, the fangs of the lions! Let them vanish like water that flows away; when they draw the bow, let their arrows be blunted. Like a slug melting away as it moves along, like a still born child, may they not see the sun. The righteous will be glad when they bathe their feet in the blood of the wicked.” Psalm 58.6-10.

“Pour out your wrath on them; let your fierce anger overtake them. May their place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in their tents. For they persecute those you wound and talk about the pain of those you hurt. Charge them with crime upon crime; do not let them share in your salvation. May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.” Psalm 69.24-28.

Given the soft-focused, effeminate condition of evangelicalism, I’ll bet the great majority of Christians have never even heard of an imprecatory prayer, much less prayed one. More than likely, the above God-inspired texts aren’t on their refrigerator scripture magnets either. I’ll go a step further and venture to guess that the majority of evangelical and Catholic clergy don’t even know what an imprecatory prayer is and have probably never taught on them or prayed them from the pulpit (Please investigate and report back to me.)

If my assumption regarding your typical congregation and clergy is true, then this is sad, unbiblical and a prime reason why militant Islam continues to march on. We are not using the spiritual big guns of imprecatory prayer against the beast of militant Islam.

My ClashPoint is this: Most religious people are familiar with Christ telling us to “bless our enemies” in prayer and to “love our enemies”. We should do both. But seldom to never, do we hear about “the other” prayers for our enemies, prayers to be prayed when our enemies become gun-, bomb- and airplane- wielding idiots. Yes, there comes a time when the intercessors gloves must come off and enough is enough and we pray the not so nice prayers. It's simple: when our enemies move from being foes who have personally wronged us, or have made fun of our bad combover, or have flamed us in a TBN chat room, to becoming jihadic death jockeys wanting to eradicate our memory from the earth, then it is time to stop praying the “Now I Lay Me Down To Sleep” stuff and start asking God to thwart and stamp out these bug eyed terrorists who want to hijack the planet and make it conform to their jacked up view of life.

So, start tossing imprecatory prayers heavenward and watch what God does to militant implacable Islam. The celestial spanking of terrorists is no big deal for God. And our prayers could save thousands of our soldiers’ lives, our citizens’ lives and the lives of innocent, moderate Muslims and others who get caught in the freak boys’ villainous crossfire.

Let us pray.

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About The Author
Doug Giles’ new book “If You're Going Through Hell, Keep Going!" is now available. Ann Coulter says "Doug Giles is a substantive and funny tour de force for traditional values.” Doug’s talk show and video blog can be seen and heard at www.ClashRadio.com.
 
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Anti
Let's face it, war between the West and the Middle East is eschatological fate. As long as the muslims want to participate, we shouldn't be ashamed of participating as well.

Imprecatory Prayers
I have one correction. We shouldn't pray for our enemies in the flesh to damned, but saved. Abel's blood cried out for vengeance, but this was not as good as the blood of Christ which gave forgiveness.

I do agree, and practice, imprecatory prayer. For example, "God, crush all our enemies and give us victory, protect our troops and bring them back safely and uninjured. Also for Israel I pray this."

God, show us how to go get 'em
I would only add "God, I am Your instrument; instruct me to use the weapons You have given me to take these [censored] down."

Just like the fat man who prays "God make me thin", the imprecatory prayer will not work nearly so well if all we do is sit on our butts and whine for Daddy to do something. (During the 9/11 remembrance, it was said that if terrorists flew an airplane through a Toronto high-rise, most people would be on the phone to some government official demanding that he or she "Do Something" until the minute their underwear caught fire.)

Another thing to do:
Beseech all Minnesotans to ensure Keith Ellison (Keith X. Ellison, Keith Ellison-Muhammad) DOES NOT go to congress! Talk about an enemy within…

Off Base Doug
I am a member of the clergy and a minister of faith. Yes, I know what an imprecatory prayer is. I also know why it doesnt get used. Our Saviour taught us to love our enemies: "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you....."(Matthew 5:44. This doesnot mean we dont have a moral right or obligation to protect ourselves, but we must do it in the framework outlined in the Bible.
The question that begs to be asked is this: If we Christians pray to God for the destruction of our enemies, are we any better than our enemies which pray for our destruction??? Instead, maybe our best path would be to be vigilant against our enemies, pray for peace, and change our sinful ways to present ourselves a holy vessel to God. Then He will protect us and keep us safe. We have His word on it.

I Admire Your Faith ...
... but I have to confess that I don't see the value in an imprecatory prayer.

Nor do I believe that God was responding to the imprecatory prayers of the 9-11 attackers (or even using their evil asses to punish us for abortion, filth on t.v. or even our unspeakable stupidity in electing Slick Willie president).

Whatever God's plan for us, I am certain that he can and will achieve it without the assistance of our sideline coaching. If it makes you feel better, go ahead and pray for the disembowelment of every Achmed and Ismael. Just don't lose focus on our own need to act. If it truly is God's will, we are sure to prevail.

"God, in all Your wisdom, power and glory, please grant your blessings on our great and good nation."

There's a prayer that I believe is about the most we have any right to ask for. The rest is up to us, God willing.


Some Christian
Mr Giles,

You say you are a Christian, but are you a Christian? What Christian would promote violence as a solution? What Christian would mix Guns and Jesus? You may remember the Garden of Gaethsemane where Jesus told discples to put down the sword and healed the ear of a Roman.

have you perverted the concept of Do Unto others, just as Fringe Peole of wat you call 'Radical Islams" have?

I respect your choice... ONLY IF you choose a Spartan Life or a Christian Life. You acn not have both. Going to Church Once a week does not make one a Christian. That is too easy.

If you want war. Fine. Than declare yourself one who has chosen the path of the sword. If you choose to be Christian, fine, but then you need to abandon many of your most precious practices which define you.

You want to back the President in a chosen war.
That decisions yields a decision for a way of life over Christian beliefs.

Which means, we as a country still are conflicted and do not even realize it. This confliction in confusion of our own beliefs paves way for policies in all kinds of turbulent ways. This country will never win anythng when such inner conflict rules over all.

Strong in faith? Perhaps. Christian Faith? Not even close.

all the best
jerry h

Thank you.
Strong words indeed.

I needed to hear this today, especially as I had to deal with yet another person comparing Christianity to Islam, as if they're the same in any way.

As for Mr. Tree Hugger, all I can say is, 'Oh, please.' As was said in the article, sitting around hoping these savages will be nice to us if we ignore them is ridiculous. These murderers continue to plot our deaths and we're just supposed to sit here? Please.

Sep12Rep
I think you've got it. We have no need to pray for death and pain for our enemies. We need only give thanks for our blessings, ask for the power and wisdom to play our part in the continuation of the Creator's plans for us all, and express our confidence that things will work out, however slowly and incomprehensively for the greatest good. My vision of the greatest good includes peace on earth, good will towards all men. For those opposed, i remember the words of a pacifist quaker who caught a burglar stealing the silver: "I would not harm thee for the world my friend, but thee are standing where i am about to shoot".

Thank You Mr Tree Hugger
I might add the comments of Stephen while he was being stoned.

Also consider the prayer of the early Christians after Peter and John were threatened by the Sanhedrin. What did they pray? Did they pray that God would destroy their persecutors? No, they prayed that they would continue to preach with boldness. And what was their reaction after they were flogged? They rejoiced. At no point did they ask God to destroy their persecutors.

The difference is this: the apostles stored their treasures in heaven. Whan happened to them on earth would not affect that, and they trusted God to accomplish his will. The western prosperity health and wealth Christians have their treasures on earth. They struggle to preserve this even to the point of wishing destruction on anyone who threatens it.

Treehugger, Lobo1776...CONTEXT!!
Gents,

Context is key! When Christ is speaking in the Sermon on the Mount, He speaks to individuals, not National Israel. When I am individually persecuted, I am to turn the other cheek and pray for those who persecute me...when they are within the law. When they step outside the bounds of their community's law, then it is my responsibility as a citizen of that community to ensure that loser doesn't do the same thing to someone else. I must report him to the authorities.

Were I to walk into my home after finding the door broken in and find my wife being raped, I believe I would fail in my responsibilities as her husband and as a man if I encouraged her to "Turn the other cheek, honey!"

The same Christ took a whip to the temple merchants for prostituting that holy site. The same Christ who condemned the disciples sword-work in Gethsemane had just told them to acquire a couple of long blades. The same Christ inspired Paul to clarify that government holds the sword for those who violate the law.

Contextually, our nation is being assaulted by wicked, demonic forces. No where in God's word does it encourage the believer to stick his head in the sand. We will NOT bring in the millenial reign of Christ. That's His timing. We must defend our freedoms as our godly founders did against tyrannical England.

Let's hear it for a man who understands the full counsel of God's word AND it's context.

Truly , No Disrespect Intended ...
... but I feel a whole lot more comfortable hanging with Pistol and Mo than I would with the likes of Mr. Tree Hugger and Dave.

I congratulate you both for the wealth you are accumulating in Heaven, but I don't feel a bit unChristian in my worldly concerns for my country, my family and myself.

Islam is a blessing to Christianity
In the Old Testament, God used the heathens to punish Israel and Judah. He did that to remind them whom they served. So it is today. God is using a wicked people to remind us.

I am thankful. If Europe and America turn from secularism and wickedness and embrace a God-centered life because of the Islamic threat, then once again the wicked have served God's purposes.

Pond Scum Gets My Vote Also
Although I'd come up with a more pleasant nickname.

Lobo and tree hugger
During the American Civil War, President Lincoln was commenting how both the Union and Confederate Armies had faith in the Almighty and were convinced that G_d was on their side; and President Lincoln quipped that it was possible that G_d was on neither side, but impossible that each side found equal favor.

During the Battle of the Bulge, General Patton requested a weather prayer to beseech the Almighty for good weather to engage in battle. General Pattons directive indicated that he didn't want to have to fight the Germans as well as G_d. Patton got his prayer, the weather cleared, the tide of battle turned and the rest is history.

I can agree that our first impulse should be to pray for your adversaries and enemies. However, our enemies are convinced that they are doing G_ds work, and we must be prepared to answer them. Pope Benedict XVI has clearly identified the problem. How can anybody be supportive of the Islamist response?

Defending yourself
While the quote from Matthey 5:44 may say "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you..." it says nothing about not protecting yourself in front of those who would kill you. We are also told to turn the other cheek, but not how many times.

So, following the directions as given, we have already turned the other cheek a few times. In fact, we are out of cheeks to turn. After we eliminate the threat against us we can once again do good to those who hate us and try to change their hearts and minds.

Being a pacifist is great if the person you disagree with is also a pacifist. When the person you disagree with is a barbarian you're in deep doo-doo. And to those watching and waiting for the outcome, unless God interviens on your side, the barbarians god will appear to be stronger than yours and people follow strength.

John-O-G
The way i heard it was a dowager at a White House dinner gushed to Abe that"we can't lose, G*d is on our side" Supposedly Abe replied "Madam, i only pray that the future will confirm that i have been on G*d's side". Actually, with a bit of elevation, one can believe the Creator WAS on both sides in our war, using both to move forward his plans, with malice toward neither. He has no hands here on earth except our hands, so it can get pretty messy bringing about any advance.

Imprecatory Prayers
Thank you Dave for yet another insightful article, Christianity today is in heap-big trouble. The islamofascists are certainly at the forefront with the irradiation of Israel and Christianity as their goal. However, there are other insidious forces at work here, Secularism and Progressive Christianity.

Of the three, Progressive Christianity is by far the worse. It has crept into the pews and is diluting the faith. With islamofascists and secularists it is easy to identify the enemy. Progressive Christians are harder to deal with because they are masquerading as Christians while destroying the faith. Some imprecatory prayers are surely in order.

Good words, but
The article was really good as were the five remedies. But we are feeding the fire in these nuts with our lifestyle and mores. Just watch TV programs where they screw eachother in the operating rooms of hospitals, sleep with anyone that happens to be available, etc. all with smiles and rounds of approval from their friends - heck, "we all do it". See the partners one on another "making out" right on screen. As a Christian these upset me so I can imagine how upset these fanatical islamofacists must be.

We should pray those prayers as you suggest, (sp) come to mind.

Why do some of you write G*d instead of God. Are you ashamed?

Ed

Understanding the Threat
Neither president Bush most other politicians nor the news media have been forthcomging to the American public about the threat that we face. Any Americans who have become aware have had to ignore what the news media and the politicians say and do their own research on the actions of Radical Islam and the source in their religion that inspire them to their actions. I am tired of hearing the excuses from blathering Muslims who claim that exhortions to kill the infidel do not apply modern times but to the battles fought by Mohammed. Those cowards should go change the mind of the Zarqawi types of the world who are defining Islam through actions and not meaningless words that are whispered and not shouted for all the world to hear. Because the ones making the headlines for Islam are the bombers and the murderers in the name of Allah. There are no headlines for Muslims who claim the verses of hate and death do not apply to this day because they whisper it. The do not shout it in the streets for all to hear. The only taking to the streets are the ones who protest cartoons or statements by the Pope.

Lambs to the Slaughter? Not!
As Atilla the Hun was "The Scourge of God," so to may radical Islam be to Western Christianity. However, I am not God, and cannot say for certain. What I do know, is that we ARE at war. What I also know is that we have been instructed to pray for our enemies. As such, this has been MY prayer throughout this conflict: "Lord, I pray for those who fight us, that they may see Your light and seek salvation. I also pray, my Lord, that we may be victorious in our endeavours in defending ourselves and our families. Keep us safe in time of danger and grant us what Thou will. Above all things, Thy will be done." There is no contradiction in being a Christian and praying for victory, for the safety of one's self and one's family. Begging God to send all heathens to a fiery H*ll, well, that is perhaps a little dicey. I can love my enemy and turn the other cheek, but I don't recall God asking us to offer up our necks for the slaughter. True Christianity has ever asked only for the ability to worship without persecution. It is the only religion truly founded on love and has a way of converting the world when unfettered. Radical Islam would have us in chains at best, but preferrably in the grave. WE are the instruments of God's will (humans, I mean), and it is through us that His plan is carried out. As we pray for our enemies, we must also pray to be His instruments; if it is His will that our enemies' spears shall break (or guns jam), so shall it be and we shall be the victor. As a Christian, I cannot but believe that this is so and pray for it with all my heart. But I still pray for my enemies. If they were to lay down their arms tomorrow, I would put up mine and wage war solely with what tools God has given every Christian: the Shield of Faith and Sword of the Spirit. Until that day comes, though, both my arms and my prayers will remain sharpened.

The Greatest Prayer
is to pray that our enemies become our friends by introducing them to Jesus Christ. The greatest sin of our nation is that so many people are prevented from hearing about Jesus Christ. The best thing President Bush did is to send our people over to Iraq, so muslims could see Christian people firsthand, instead of hearing the lies of their leaders. It is Jesus Christ who brings freedom and change to any nation. That is why missionaries go to foreign lands. But now we need missionaries on American soil to teach our children about Jesus. Leftists hate Christ and do not want people to hear about him because they know they cannot control believers in Christ like they control non-believers.

Profgene
I agree with you. The Muslims in this country are not standing for the country, they are standing for themselves and the garbage of their own groups. What should be done is to deport all of them back to the Muslim world they came from. Why our President keeps saying that not all muslims are no good, only a few and that their religion is peaceful,BULLS**T. I think that it is time for this country to wake up and realize that if they get their way we will(most of us) all die. There will be some that will convert, hopefully not many. Prayers will help but mostly the upriseing of the people will be the main stopper. God willing we will win.

Pacifists
A PS: look to Clement Attlee ( spelling) of Great Britain, in that he tried to talk Hitler into being a nice guy, Hitler laughed at him.

It's right there in the book of Hezikia!
Doesn't it say somewhere that some will eat herbs, and some will hug trees...?

IMPRECATORY: Prayers to the invoking or calling down of some curse or calamity...

-Standard College Dictionary

Once I was told by a very humble, quite man what he would do if his family were the victims of a home invasion. He said: I would get my 12 gauge pump, and, if possible, after getting the drop on the perpetrators, I'd order them to their knees, and with earnest felt composure say,

"Gentlemen, I am a Christian. I am going to pray for you now, and if the Lord does not intercede, I'm going to blow your heads off."

Hey Doug. I know of many Catholics and Evangelicals that utilize imprecatories every weekend. ie. Notre Dame, De Paul, Ohio Dominican, Liberty College, O.R.U., Viloa, etc.

I know we Buckeyes do.


Imprecatory Prayer- MIxing OT & NT
Mr. Giles has done a good thing in bring this topic to light. In reading the comments it becomes clear that there are many Christians out there that are misapplying scripture.

The New Testament scriptures are solely personal, and are to bring redemption- to our souls and to bring us into fellowship with our Father. All of the New Testament are meant to be used to bring us into maturity in Faith, instructing us how to behave within our selves, and with others. None of the New Testament scriptures are directed toward governing a nation.

When scripture given to direct an individuals behavior, attitude and direction are misapplied and used as a method of governance- what was meant to be a blessing becomes a tyranny.

One small example: to help the poor- when done in faith at the leading of the Holy Spirit - it is a blessing for the one helping or giving to the poor and it is received with gratefulness and is a blessing for the recipient too. But when this is misapplied and used as a government program - and the money/time/resources are taken from one person and given to another it breeds resentment from in the 'donor' and rather than gratefulness from the donee- it is received at best as 'owed' and at worst instills and attitude that will demand more. Rather than a 'help' to getting someone back on their feet it can just as easily breed a sense of entitlement and allows that person to sink into dependency.

For insight into methods and attitudes about 'governing' you must look to the Old Testament. Here you find guidance into how a nation is governed- and how a nation acts and reacts in God's plan.

It is easy to see that there is a big difference between how an individual behaves in the course of their life and how a nation behaves toward it's citizens and other nations.

We do a grave disservice when we mix these two testament scriptures and apply or don't apply them in the proper scenario.

A Higher Standard
I don't mean to sound sarcastic in saying this, but it does seem that Mr. Giles learned a new word, and felt the need to write a column about it (rather arrogantly, it seemed to me-- assuming that the rest of us couldn't possibly have heard of it.) I know the meaning of imprecatory, and also the context of imprecatory prayers. As Christians, we should understand that the New Testament calls us to a higher ethic. The imprecatory Psalms (where most imprecatory prayer can be found) belong to a time when people lived by "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" mentality. But Jesus went beyond that kind of action in His New Testament revelation. He declared, "But say unto you, love your enemies, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them that despitefully use you and persecute you." While some on this site have stated that the Sermon on the Mount" was only for personal use, I would reply that personal piety is (or can be-- or should be) transferred to the world at large.
It is important not to bypass what Jesus taught in his fuller and more complete revelation.

Of course, we can defend ourselves against the evil of the terrorists -- but it would also be helpful for our nation to refrain from policies which cause and have caused hatred to fester. No, that is not "blaming America first," -- it's merely holding us up to the higher ideal, a higher standard -- that our constitution (and our faith) stands for.

And a note to "loveliberty" who wrote
"Leftists hate Christ and do not want people to hear about him..."
Please think and pray before you write such an inflammatory statement. I am an Independent who leans to the left, and a committed Christian who loves Christ with all my heart. I wish people who post on Townhall would not paint with such a broad brush.

Doc - G*d
It is traditionally written G*d by the Hebrews/Jews, as it is considered improper/sacreligious to write or even speak the actualy name of G*d (in the actual Hebrew, it is YHWH - "I am" or sometimes translated Adonai).

Laura Root
(Messianic Gentile)
La Shana Tova!

Militant Bibliophile
I have thoughts similar to yours each Sunday, when prayers are offered for the "safe return" of our troops. Safe return means nothing, if it is happens in abject defeat.So why not also ask Almighty God for the victory of our troops in this monumental battle of good vs. evil?

I'm also reminded of Pres. Lincoln's remark to the obstinate, slow "Virginia Creeper" George McClellan, "If you do not intend to use the army, I should like to borrow it." Why develop a superb military, if we're afraid to use it?

Less known, perhaps, than the Lincoln stories, is the fact that Confederate President Jefferson Davis, as well as Union President Lincoln, declared days of national prayer and fasting. The Confederacy also turned to God in its need--and Union states weren't the ones whose civilians were being ravaged and murdered by invading armies.

Verizon DSL service is LOUSY!!!!!!!
It cuts me off for no reason all the time. It did so while I was trying to post a comment here. Let me try again, at less length.

OKJoyce: "Left" and "right" are partly a matter of semantics; but much of what is called "the left" does hate Christ, because much of what is called "the left" wants a green light to have meaningless sex without any restraint, and to murder the babies produced by this.

This leads to another point: although America is guilty of letting such degeneracy go on, this is NOT what the Islamists hate us for. They would hate us just as much, or even more, if all of us were as sinless as the unfallen Adam. They hate us for not conforming to them, period.

I do pray for terrorists to be saved; but I also pray that, while they take their sweet time coming to repentance, they should NOT be allowed to succeed in their evil plans. We are to love our enemies, but NOT prefer our enemies OVER our friends and families.

Joseph Ravitts, USN Ret.

http://empowered-anti-nonsense.blogspot.com

"Some" does not equal "much"

There you go again -- that broad brush!
You cannot state with any degree of certainty that "much" of the left hates Christ, anymore than I can say that "much" of the right are hypocritical Christians, though I do find some of that in the right wing. "Some" does not equal "much" -- on either side. There are sincere folks who disagree on important issues. If you are honest, you would have to admit that there are people on both sides who embarrass us with their venomous rhetoric. I am an Independent because I find some good in both liberal and conservative ideas. I would probably identify myself as a Republican again (which is what I used to be) if the party had not abandoned true conservative ideals such as: small government, fiscal responsibility, balanced government -- and taken up such ill-conceived policies as nation-building, pre-emptive war, and relinquishment of high American standards. Colin Powell couldn't have been more right when he spoke of losing our moral authority abroad. I just wish he would have spoken out sooner, when it really mattered.

I will state once more -- I believe we have to defend ourselves against terrorists and evil of all kinds -- hopefully getting it right in who actually attacked us.

P.S. I have Cox Broadband and have not had any problems -- it's super fast.
Also, thank you for your service to our country. I always support our military, but resent the non-military types who think they know better than those who have had bullets whizzing by their heads.

Prayer
seems like a good idea at this time. It is true that Jesus does say to love your enemy, yet I highly doubt he was recommending his followers to lay themselves before the lions.

It is as that anecdote my pastor once told me:

A man fell off a tall building, and cried out to God, "Please God, save me!" And then he fell into the canopy of a nearby tree. "Nevermind."

Have you ever thought maybe our country has developed the greatest military forces on Earth to protect us from these people?

Although every night, my prayer is the same: Please God, protect him from those vile creatures; we are supposed to grow old together.

Turning the cheek . . . .
only gets you so far. Enemies need to die, and God isn't going to come riding to your rescue on a white charger, shooting a SAW from the hip (Rambo-ing it).

A bullet kills the enemy a lot better than faith in a deity does. A bullet from a magazine of cartridges loaded by people, not a deity.

Quote scripture all day long, if that's your thing, but when the enemy shows up you better drop the bible and grab a weapon.

New and Old Testament
As a Catholic, each day at Mass I hear a verse from both the New and Old Teastament. In three years, the entire Bible is read. So yes, the Psalms are heard and the ones that Doug cites are most important. So is Matt 5:44, when Jesus tells us to "Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you."
The way I have always understood my Catholic teaching is that we must always pray for the conversion of our enemies because God is capable of anything. However, as one who lives in a fallen world, sometimes asking to give our enemies a stong dose of their own medicine is called God's discipline, and praying for it is just fine. Sometimes this calls for learning the art of war, even admiring the likes of Sgt. York, an evangelical who did not want to fight for his country, but became WWI's most decorated soldier. Everyone Christian should read his biography.
To me, there is no conflict. In fact, I'm called to pray for all persons even as I once joined the military to defend this greatest country ever.

Jesus said to turn the other cheek...
...and if all the extremists wanted to do were slap my cheek, I'd be all for it. Since, however, they wish to kill me and my children, it's a different story.

Jesus said to love our enemies, not to let them destroy us. Christian does _not_ mean "doormat."


Doc
Some of my Jewish friends get a bit uncomfortabe with God spelled out. Just force of habit. Aesop and Ricky Nelson are quite right, might as well please yourself because you can't please everybody else.

context pondscum??
If you wish to talk about context pondscum then lets. The context I was talking about was the use of imprecatory prayers against our enemies. The exhortation to the Almighty to be an avenging angel to crush those who have wronged us.

Yes Christ teachings on the Sermon of the Mount dealt with individuals. But what are governments, what are nations but a collection of individuals While individuals have no control over what course other nations and governments have, they do have control of their own nations and governments.

Yes while it is true that Christ cast out the money-changers defiling the temple of God, there is no mention in the Gospels of Him using a whip. The only record we have of the incident is in Mark 11:15, where it says:"...and (He) began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;". But no where in the Scriptures does it mention Christ exhorting the Almighty to crush those desecrating the temple.

Yes it is true that Christ told his followers to buy a sword, but for a specific purpose. Luke 22:36-37 states:"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, AND HE WAS COUNTED AMONG THE TRANSGRESSORS: for the things concerning me have an end." IN face Christ only told His followers to buy a sword to fulfill a prophecy He knew needed to be fulfilled. So if in fact Christ wanted His followers to take up the sword why then, in the Garden Of Gethsemane, when Peter cut off the ear of the servant of the high priest, did Christ heal the servant and tell Peter:"Put up again thy sword in its place: for all they that take up the sword shall perish with the sword".

It is interesting to note that when Mr. Giles talks about imprecatory prayers he talks of them in both the Old and New Testaments, yet cites only two Old Testament passages as proof. The simple reason is that there are NO imprecatory prayers in the New Testament. On the cross, Christ prayed about His enemies;"Father forgive them, for they know not what they do".

While it is true that no where in the Bible does God tell Christians to stick our heads in the sand, it is also true that nowhere in the New Testament does Christ tell us to pray for vengenance, or for God to crush our enemies. Indeed there is no record of early persecuted Christians using imprecatory prayers as they faced death at the hands of the Romans. Instead, they emulated the ways of the Savior by forgiving their enemies and refusing to deny their faith. The end result was that pagan Rome converted to Christianity.

Imprecatory prayers are prayers designed to give religious support and creedance to one of man's basic instinct: The desire for revenge. The self-satisfying idea that for every action there should be an opposite and just as nasty over-reaction. We justify these actions through the use of imprecatory prayers. We use Bibical passages such as:"...an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth", and, "vegenance is mine saith the Lord" to show the world that we are right in our revenge, because God is on our side.

Our defence of our homeland from the assaults of terrorism is man's answer to another man's violent attack on him. Indeed our response violates every teaching of Christ, however, we are in this man's struggle and for the sake of all of us we must succede. Instead of praying to God to crush our enemies, for be it better to pray for our enemies, that God will forgive them and change their hearts and ways. Pray for the safe-keeping of our troops and those that have lost loved ones. Let our prayers and compassion be a light to all those who desire belief in the Truth and the Light.

Lets also not forget that our enemies also have their own imprecatory prayers which they have used to justify their attacks on us. To respond in kind to them makes us no better than they are.

Peace be upon you, always.


Ah, moral relativism
"Lets also not forget that our enemies also have their own imprecatory prayers which they have used to justify their attacks on us. To respond in kind to them makes us no better than they are."

Of course, there's no moral difference between their praying to God to help them murder women and children and our praying to God to help our soldiers defeat those trying to murder women and children. It's all the same, isn't it? Riiiiiiight.

Sorry, but for those of us not living in la-la land there's a huge difference between picking up a gun to murder and picking up a gun to stop the murderer. It most certainly does not make us "just the same" that we're picking up a gun, and praying to God to help the man trying to stop the murder is not at all the same as praying to God to help the murderer. It's just not the same thing.


What fraudulence
Yet another sophomoric column about how we must fight, with the usual girlie-man shrieks of fear.

OK, we must fight, got it . . .

But then, of course, not one word, not one CLUE, about what the plan should be from here, or how this band of Bozos we've elected should be accountable for their astonishing (and inarguable) incompetence.

It's just, Oh, let's support the president because he wants to fight, no matter how much his staggering ineptitude in the strategy of that fight continues to weaken us unnecessarily.

It's, Let's just continue to be an ever more disrespected laughingstock who stupidly help boost the Iranians.

If you follow the inanity of this war, then read the Christians cheering this losing status quo, you might conclude Christians just aren't suited for policy decisions. Heads too much in the clouds? Could be.

Oddly enough, when we get into a fight, I'd like to see us win it.

Unlike this ninny and those who support him here, I'm more concerned with winning the fight than with covering my backside for past misjudgments with faux-tough talk more suited for a sewing circle.

Cliffhanger I have a problem with
Cliffhanger I have a problem with your very prejudiced view of Muslims. I am not one either. I do know that many have felt freer here to worship than they did where they immigrated from.

As long at they accept tolerance as spelled out by Justice Blackmun ["When the government puts its imprimatur on a particular religion it conveys a message of exclusion to all those who do not adhere to the favored beliefs. A government cannot be premised on the belief that all persons are created equal when it asserts that God prefers some." Supreme Court Justice Harry A. Blackmun in the Lee v. Weisman ruling, 1992.] and our Constitution, I have no problem with them.

Let's face it, we aren't going to infiltrate them with blue-eyed born-again Christains.

imprecatory context
Lobo,

A key note in the context of the imprecatory Psalm is that the psalmist always leaves ultimate judgment to God whatever that judgment might be. In light of what the psalmist knew of God's righteousness, He was pleading that the righteous Judge would act in that righteousness.

Ultimately, though, the psalmist submitted to the will of his Lord.

Nehemiah's another great work for noting fervent prayer and fervent action.

By the way, simply because Christ does not mention imprecatory prayers does not mean they are no longer viable. Otherwise, what would their purpose serve in the Psalms? Ummm...

Imprecatory Prayers
Amen brother Amen, I have a journal filled with imprecatory prayers starting back in 2000. That God would shut the mouths of lying democrats, as well as against the false religion of Islam, whose god requires forced submission. It is good to know someone else is praying the same. So many people misjudge Christ, who, when He returns will do so with a sword in His mouth, a sword of judgment that will spare no evil doer. I agree we must support the President, and go to that voting booth with this in mind, electing liberals will not only sink us into a deeper cess pool than we are already in, but will get us killed as well

Jacqueline Owens
Los Angeles, CA

pondscum
You mention the Old Testament and the Psalms. In Psalm 109, David exhorts God to punish those who falsely accused him. He does so by putting extremely harsh curses on his enemies. There are others that are listed as the Imprecatory Psalms that are not as harsh, but still invoke what amounts to curses on the psalmist's enemies.

Do imprecatory prayers exist today? Yes. Are they viable? Maybe. Do they adhere to the true teachings of Christ? No. It is very difficult for Christians to justify praying for God to destroy our enemies when Christ Himself prayed for forgiveness for those who crucified Him, and a nun who shot in the back in Somalia asked for forgiveness for her enemies right before she died.

It is very easy to find anything you want in the Scriptures to justify anything you want to do. It is much more difficult to live by the teachings of Christ because they run so contrary to our base human nature.

We need to regroup and remember that terrorist attacks are a matter of National Security, not a religious matter. Yes, I know that our enemies are engaged in what they call a "jihad" against us and Israel. But let them call it what they will. Let us not forget what we have defined it as. Because if we begin to talk about praying to God to crush our enemies, then we move to killing in the name of God.

Again, doesnt that lower us to the same level as our enemies?

Peace be unto you always

One final thought
Maybe instead of praying for God to destroy our enemies, we should instead, pray for God to help us elect the right leaders in November.

Right now I am more frightened by the damage Nancy Pelosi and the Democratic party can do to our nation, than I am about what the terrorists can do.

Peace be upon you, always.

I don't quite understand
How can some of you place blame for our situation on the execrable qualities of popular entertainment?

Your television sets all have "off" switches and channel-changers. You choose whether or not to pay money to see a movie, concert or theatrical performance.

I don't believe that your shocked reactions, and your demands that the government "do something" will change the entertainment industry.

Your refusal to view their product might.

In the meantime, YOU choose whether or not to wallow in this particular trough. Let the others make their own decision.

To be *compelled* to do "good" does not work. It must be a matter of free will.

Does much of the left hate God?
OKJoyce writes: Saturday, September, 23, 2006 6:23 PM
"Some" does not equal "much"

"There you go again -- that broad brush!
You cannot state with any degree of certainty that "much" of the left hates Christ, anymore than I can say that "much" of the right are hypocritical Christians"

Tim comments-One can indeed be certain that the majority of the left in the US and Canada hate God. Have you never read "All who hate me love death" Prov.8:36b?
Given that the "majority of the left" support it, abortion remains legal; which makes it certain, therefore, that a majority of the US (and Canadian) left both love death and hate God.
Tim
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