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Thursday, April 24, 2008
Donald Lambro :: Townhall.com Columnist
Income Redistribution, Tax Hikes Top Democratic Agenda
by Donald Lambro
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WASHINGTON -- Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton are coming under fire from some rather unusual quarters, and these critics are challenging their plans to hike taxes at a time when the economy needs all the stimulus it can get.

These critics are also raising the r-word -- as in redistribution of incomes -- a political killer in any election cycle but especially in an economic downturn that is squeezing salaries across the board.

The incoming fire isn't just from Republican John McCain, who thinks raising taxes in a sick economy is sort of like the 18th-century practice of bleeding. Criticism is coming from the news media and from academia.

"Why raise taxes at all in an economic slowdown? Isn't that going to put a further strain on people?" CNBC economic reporter Maria Bartiromo asked Obama a few weeks ago. It's a question that could define the rest of the presidential election and boost GOP prospects at a time when the No. 1 issue is the economy, dwarfing the war in Iraq.

Picking up on Bartiromo's pointed question, ABC News anchors Charlie Gibson and George Stephanopoulos also pummeled both candidates last week for their tax policies.

"If the economy is as weak a year from now, as it is today, will you ... persist in your plans to roll back President Bush's tax cuts for wealthier Americans?" Stephanopoulos asked Clinton.

Clinton said, yes, she would raise the top 35 percent marginal tax rate on incomes over $250,000 "to the rates they were paying in the 1990s" under President Clinton, which would lift them to a confiscatory 40 percent.

"Even if the economy is weak?" an incredulous Stephanopoulos asked.

"Yes," she replied without hesitation. "I do not believe it will detrimentally affect the economy by doing that."

But business advocates and economists dispute that claim, saying it isn't just wealthier Americans who pay the top income tax rate, but also 25.8 million small businesses, many of them family-run operations, that create about 75 percent of the jobs, according to the Small Business Administration.

"What Clinton and Obama fail to realize is that small-business entrepreneurs also pay that marginal tax rate and raising it will hurt them and by extension hurt the U.S. economy," said economic policy strategist Cesar Conda, who was one of Mitt Romney's campaign advisers.

Sadly, the Democrats' agenda doesn't include small businesses that earn more than $250,000 but do not consider themselves rich. Many, in fact, are struggling just to keep their heads above water.

Instead, Clinton and Obama are focused on finding more tax revenue from the rich to pay for tax cuts, in Obama's case, for people who make less than $75,000.

In my last column, I discussed Obama's plan to raise the 15 percent capital-gains tax rate, possibly to 25 percent, noting how Charlie Gibson challenged the senator by pointing out that revenues always fall when the tax is raised.

I queried a number of top economists around the country about the freshman senator's tax plan, and here's what Glenn Hubbard, the former chairman of the White House Council of Economic Advisers, and now the dean of Columbia University's Graduate School of Business, had to say about it:

"Raising capital (gains) taxes is bad at any time -- and particularly in a weak economy. The only argument for such a tax increase -- since that argument can be neither economic efficiency nor efficient revenue collection -- would be a policy of (income) redistribution."

And that, of course, is what Obama has in mind. He would pay for his middle-class tax cuts in part by taxing the 100-million-member investor class, 50 percent of whom are the middle class. It is income redistribution by the government, pure and simple.

"They claim they do not want to raise taxes on anyone up to $250,000, but more and more ordinary Americans own stocks through mutual funds, IRAs and 401(k) plans at work. A higher capital-gains tax on stock reduces the value of the stock," said Grover Norquist, president of Americans for Tax Reform.

While Obama promises in one breath that he would not tax anyone below $250,000, with the next breath he says he would raise the $97,000 cap on the Social Security payroll tax to extract money from "millionaires and billionaires" who don't have to pay beyond that rate.

"But that's a tax ... on people under $250,000," Gibson reminded the Harvard graduate. "There's a heck of a lot of people between $97,000 and $250,000." Obama, obviously, hadn't thought of that.

If that's not contradictory enough, former Clinton White House adviser Gene Sperling, Hillary Clinton's chief economic adviser, said that if the United States were still in a recession next year, she would stick to her tax-hike plan, while proposing a temporary economic stimulus.

"Her view would be to add another stimulus through more progressive temporary tax cuts that would have a higher bang for the buck, but she will still revert back to the old top tax rate," he told me.

That begs the question, in macroeconomic terms: Wouldn't each cancel out the other?

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About The Author

Donald Lambro is chief political correspondent for The Washington Times.

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Cut SS Payroll tax
Conservatives have no problem with Bush's redistribution of wealth tax cuts that transfer wealth collected from the bottom and rebate it to the top. They only seem to object to redistribution of wealth from the top to the bottom.

The only taxes in surplus are the SS payroll taxes!
Bush took the Social Security Tax SURPLUS, collected at SS Payroll Tax Rates entirely from wage earners making less than $90,000 and businesses that employ Americans, and redistributed most of that surplus to incomes over $100,000 and Capital Gains Tycoons who are exempt from SS Payroll Taxes, by using Income Tax Rates for the redistribution of the SS payroll tax surplus collected at SS tax rates.

So Tycoons who increased profits by outsourcing American jobs for cheeper foreign labor, got a tax deduction on that profit at the expense of American jobs. Not only that, but to further offset this redistribution of wealth, Bush and the GOP congress raised the threshold on paying SS payroll taxes, making the cost of employing American wage earners even higher to those businesses that employ Americans.

What I would do to stimulate the economy and create jobs is to REPLACE each of Bush's stupid American job killing tax cuts, DOLLAR FOR DOLLAR, with a cut in payroll taxes.

American wage earners will get an immediate and permanent increase in their take home pay without costing their employer a single penny thus providing money to spend and create demand. And those businesses that employ Americans will get an immediate and lasting cut in their cost of labor without cutting or outsourcing a single job as well as saving the extra cost in time and money for all the payroll tax bookkeeping.

There is no other tax cut that is as efficient in applying money directly to the key areas dictated by todays economic problems.

thank you ed
Bush tax cut advocates invariably parse their arguments in terms of the income tax, besides redistributing those surpluses to those that paid the least proportionally it is in fact borrowing on payroll tax revenues that finances a large chunk gov't spending.

Also, I'm waiting for these advocates to explain why the national debt has tripled in a scant 3 years if these tax cuts are such an engine of growth. And please, don't throw out that tired old canard about Congressional spending. First off, politicians will never stop spending, and second, non-defense discretionary spending accounts for barely 17% of the budget.

I see the communists have
got here early and posted their drivel. Both Shrillary and O’Vomit want to try a repeat of the 1930s with a “do-over” of the great depression. After all, FDR got such good press out of it so why not them?

What we should have is a 10% flat tax on everyone from the newspaper boy delivering your paper to the multi-billionaire software king and no exceptions or deductions. If the government runs a deficit with that, then the government then needs to reduce spending. This is the way most people run their finances. You have an income and your spending must be kept within range of that except for “unusually large” purchases which are financed. Those being limited to a percentage of income (except in a few cases of this housing bust).

But no, the Commiecrats can not have a system that provides for a low and fair tax rate for everyone.

"Wealth" redistribution
"But business advocates and economists dispute that claim, saying it isn't just wealthier Americans who pay the top income tax rate, but also 25.8 million small businesses, many of them family-run operations, that create about 75 percent of the jobs, according to the Small Business Administration"

I used to rely heavily on small businesses as work and trade referrals for kids (I am especially mourning particular sheet metal guy who was fabulous). That resource is long gone thanks to confiscatory taxes and preferential tax incentives for foreign owned businesses, who tend to hire only family. Instead, we do have substantial gang options thanks to the generous open borders.

As for wealth redistribution, I see more and more government dependence/dependents and increased sloth as a direct result. There are now simply more people to behave in ways that are conducive to poverty, and impoverishing the jobscape in effort to fortify that which needs to change is astoundingly wrong.

In addition, the way the gov't handles money ios positively criminal and would quickly bankrupt household. Advocates of wealth redistribution and higher taxes are only those who are and will be completely insulated from the results- for now.

What we have to realize is
it is not that these dems are stupid on the economy, it is that they want to grow govt and promote communism with them running the show.

If either are as stupid on basic economics as it appears on the surface, then they are demonstrably unqualified to be POTUS, which I believe to be true in any event.

Anyone with any familiarity with history can see what LBJ's "great society" has wrought. Income re-distribution on a huge scale, useless govt giveaway programs to buy votes and Social Security on the brink of bancrupcy to pay for most of it.

The amount of people coming out to vote for these 2 clowns is scary. How does anyone with a job, a college education or any money in the bank after a life-time of work even consider voting for someone who promises to take their money and give it away to some bum who never took advantage of school, never worked and contributed and always ask for more because he thinks we owe it to him.

Liberals are stooopid! trouble is we all get to pay for their stupidity.

Vic
Either a flat tax or an sales tax would be the way to go. Unfortunately I don't ever see it happening.

It hit close and personal this year. By virtue of selling an old family property (and darn near killing myself in the process, I'm getting too old for all that manual labor), I got pushed into the dreaded Alternative Minimum Tax abyss, AND disqualified myself from the so-called Economic Stimulus package.

As you can tell, I didn't have the wherewithal to hire a fancy tax attorney a la Kennedy or Kerry.

I can console myself with the idea that some clown is at Best Buy picking out his new plasma TV (made in China)with the money that my parents and I earned. Whoever he may be, I know that he wasn't around helping me renovate the property.

Whining? Darn right I am...

Bulldog74
I am not in favor of a sales tax because it punishes the wrong people by taxing money that has already been taxed. A flat 10% tax on ALL income regardless of source is the most fair.

As for the dreaded AMT I know how you feel. I had one year where I had deductions removed because I was "rich" by Clinton's definition. My last year working I would have also fell in that category but I had no deductions to remove. LOL, I was filing the standard.

I am for the flat tax on ALL wage because I believe that everyone should have a stake in the system. If you make money you should pay taxes. In addition, this would remove the EIC which is just another form of welfare from the Communists.

Vic
"everyone should have a stake in the system" -- way to go, you've hit it right on. The fact that this isn't the case is the source of our problems.

I had never known about the EIC until some years back when I filled out a tax form for one of my low-income friends and saw that he was getting a big refund even though he paid very little tax that year. I still can't believe it.

Kind of like the story of the Little Red Hen, except in our case, at the end of the story we end up sharing the bread anyway.

Bulldog74
Yes the EIC was enacted in 1975 by a Lamocrat congress and signed into law by a liberal Gerald Ford.

The AMT was brought about by a Democrat Congress during the LBJ trials and tribulations. if it had been indexed for inflation like it shouldhave been it would not come into play until you had an AGI of 2.1 million dollars.

vic
So where do you stand on the Fair Tax?

I'M KIDDING! Don't get started. I know exactly where you stand.

I could live with a flat tax. I also agree that the EIA and AMT are a joke.

The worst four letter "F" word in the English language is the word "fair" when it gets thrown around election time.

Fair Tax
Don't knock it until you read the books.go to
The "Fair Tax Calculator" to see what your 07
income taxes would have been under the FAIR TAX.
READ THE BOOKS and Rearange your brain cells

Donald's Faulty Math
First off, the cap on SS earnings this year is $102,000 not $97,000. As the SS Trustees report notes, (the largest tax increase in the US,the FICA tax passed under Pres. Reagan)the current tax captures 84% of total US payroll. The intent was to have the tax apply to 90% (Greenspan et al) of the payroll. Raising the cap above 102 is just getting back to what the legislation intended.

As to capital gains taxes:
"As President Reagan noted when he signed the 1986 tax reform, taxing capital gains at a lower rate than other income gives people enormous incentive to game the tax code."
http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/beat_the_press_archive?m onth=04&year=2008&base_name=the_capital_gains_tax_its_even

The unFair Tax
I have read the book which is virtually worthless other than the Q&A in the back, I have read the bill, and I have computed taxes under it as well as the normal income tax. If you throw out all the rosy assumptions made by the hucksters of this scam you will see that it is a major tax increase foer eervyone making less than about 200K per year.

Marie
YOu went ahead and did it. You got Vic started on the Fair Tax. I was only kidding with him. I am in favor of the Fair Tax, but there is nothing that you can do or say to get Vic on board.

I will say this for Vic. From reading all his posts, he left no stone unturned in his research and he is still against it, but he has been about as opened minded as any detractor that I have ever debated about it.

fairtax.org

The latest "Crisis"
If Dems raise taxes and the economy tanks they will still blame it on the Bush economic policies. The news media will run with the story and the government educated voters will buy it hook, line and sinker.

No amount of facts will ever change that mindset. The more you bring up facts the louder they will scream. You need no further proof than the global warming, excuse me, climate change hysteria.

Now the latest crisis is a food shortage. Is this really a bad thing with obesity being such a problem in America ? Hmmm ?? I wonder ??

I predict this will last about a month. Then a new and improved crisis will emerge. Anyone want to predict the next crisis on Townhall ? Let's see who is right in 30 days.

The next time you are out of work go ask a "poor" person for a job.

Tibby

Shrillary Cankleton's Plans
How much did The Pantsuited Princess and Shillary (LOL) pay on the $110,000,000.00 they have earned in the last 8 years?

Social Security Taxes
Let us not ever forget that the FICA income was stored away for future disbursement until Lyndon Baines Johnson asked for and received authority to disburse those monies for other purposes.

As James Madison said: "I cannot endeavor to place my finger on that part of the Constitution that allows the use of Public Monies for Private Charity."

If it was only 17% (it is not, more like 50%) it would still be too much and unconstitutional.

It is your Constitution. Read it. And if you want to change it, go through the process as outlined in the Constitution.

ROFL edthecynic
"Conservatives have no problem with Bush's redistribution of wealth tax cuts that transfer wealth collected from the bottom and rebate it to the top."

Uh huh. So tell me, which of Bush's taxes increased taxes on those on the bottom?

Answer: none. In fact, nearly none of the bottom 45% of tax return filers OWE NOT TAXES AT ALL thanks to the Bush tax cuts. The total share of the tax burden for upper income filers has gone up, while the bottom has gone down. The bottom 50%, in fact, now pays only about 3.5% of the total income taxes.

The only way kooky commies can even argue ANY policy is through outright lies, and you, edthecynic, are proof of that fact.

Yeah a food shortage
WalMar/SAMS is limiting you to 80 pounds of rice at a time. Gee, I can't remember the last time I was forced to buy less than 80 pounds of rice.

Is this a new kind of marketing ploy for rice?

Hard Thought
Awww, I was just starting to settle down after thinking about how I got shafted on the AMT and the "economic stimulus" (read "commie income redistribution"), and then you had to bring up FICA, now I'm all agitated again. :)

Governing by the Constitution, what a novel thought in this day and age.

Rob the rich, cheat the poor...
Such is the usual liberal tax policy. However, let's be fair. Liberals don't rob ALL of the rich. They always build in a few loopholes to benefit their own donors.

re: Seawolf
Actually, neither of the dem candidates are stupid on the economy. In fact both are well aware of what raising taxes on a weak economy will do. When you add in tying up food reserves to convert to fuel you get an economic disaster coupled with food shortages. Just one point about all government, there isn't any form of government that isn't more than 3 missed meals from revolution. You should read some of the communist dialectic discussions about how you collapse a capitalist system into revolution into a communist system. It's quite educational and it illuminates what the two democratic candidates want to attempt.

Re edthecynic
Ok, let's take your post point by point. Tax cuts aren't income redistribution. They are in fact the opposite. Those people who earn income get to keep more of that income. That's called distribution where goods and services are bought and paid for by people living their lives.

Taking tax dollars and spending them on people who aren't working or aren't producing is called income redistribution because those tax dollars come from income earned by the tax payers. So the people paying the taxes are having their income reduced under color of authority in order to redistribute said income to others who aren't earning income and aren't producing.

Everybody who earns income pays Social Security. People who made more than 97,000 last year only paid it on the first 97,000 of their income. This year it's on the first 102,000 of their income. Until Carter got in office it was on the first 405.10 of income only.

I'll take apart the rest of your post in my next post.

re; edthecynic
Ok, let's talk about jobs going off shore. I'm sure you've considered the fact that the minimum wage has driven up the cost of unskilled labor which in turn drives up the cost of skilled labor in this country? You do realize that labor is a commodity that is bought and sold it's bought by the employer and sold by the employee. The government got involved and set a minimum price on labor which has cause labor's cost to become inflated beyond what the market will bear. Now the market which would be the employers are looking for less expensive labor so they go where labor is cheaper. You want jobs back cut the minimum wage to 4 bucks an hour or eliminate the minimum wage completely. Jobs will come back because it's fairly expensive to operate factories and other facilities over seas. It should only be cost effective to operate distribution centers over seas but liberals have insured that it's cheaper to go overseas than to stay at home. Tax incentives had nothing to do with what happened.

And since you apparently missed it Bush's tax cuts were cuts in marginal or payroll taxes. But that's a bit much for a flaming communist to really understand now isn't it.

Win-win, not win-lose
Liberals/socialists think that returning money to the rich is taking it away from the poor. Hardly the case.

On the flip-side, the Dems tax hike does take away money from the rich and return to those who they think it was taken from.

It's obvious who wants the win-win, and who wants the win-lose.

Re-defeat communism!

FairTax is the way to go.
Scenario: Elderly single lady who lives on Social Security

Current Income Tax:
- She collects SSN and pays some taxes.
- She buys the essentials of life that include embedded tax costs/compliance.
- Period.

FairTax:
- She collects her SSN (no taxes taken out).
- She gets a tax prebate up to the poverty level ($199/mo based on 2008 FairTax prebate schedule for a single adult)
- She buys the essentials of life that include 23% tax on consumption vs. 22% tax on production.
- She can also choose to be even more frugal and purchase mainly "used" goods and pay no tax (other than on new goods and services)
- Period

Many know the argument that prices will remain roughly the same post-FairTax as the are currently with payroll and corporate taxes embedded at all levels of production.

A key to the FairTax is that EVERYONE who consumes in our lands will contribute (tax evaders, tax avoiders, even tourists). Currently, only those of us who actually file tax returns contribute.

The other key benefit will be the reversal of exodus of jobs, capital, and opportunity that is currently chased away from our lands. Stripping away productivity taxes invites much needed manufacturing and other jobs such that our ecomony can grow and thrive.

Peace,

YK

AMT
Can anyone tell me why the AMT is not simply just reindexed? All I hear is Libs saying its good as is and conservs saying it needs to be repealed. Why not just reindex it?

Teqsand
The Republican congress passed a bill to eliminate the AMT and Klinton vetoed it. During the Bush admin the Republican congress tried to eliminate it again but the Dems joined forced with 8 or 10 RINOs and hung it up.

So the answer to your question is the Dems who believe in high taxes keep it going. As I said in an earlier post, if it had been indexed for inflation it would not kick in now until 2.1 million.

To top all of that off it has NEVER served the function that it was supposed to serve in assuring that the really rich pukes with lots of deuctions paid taxes. It has too may loopholes.

When the Dems say now that to eliminate it or to index it would cost too much money they are lying through their teeth. Each year a poor temporary index bill is passed to keep it from hitting the middle class so so far the only cost has been in idiot time.

This is the part that worries me
"prices will remain roughly the same post-FairTax as the are currently with payroll and corporate taxes embedded at all levels of production."

Just because expenses drop doesn't mean manufacturers will lower their prices. Granted, they'll need to be competitive, but still: this part worries me.

I'm also quite concerned about ending up with BOTH an income tax and a consumption tax.

Grumpy - valid FairTax concerns...
I actually went off on a tangent (further down) but this (directly below) should address some FairTax concerns:

Manufacturing either will or will not ower their prices. If they don't, competition will force them to over time. In the meantime, keep in mind that people will be able to use their whole income (paychecks, investment income, etc.).

It is important to understand that taxpayers will be able to keep more of their money because we now are joined by tax evaders (underground economy, illegal aliens, etc.) as well as tax avoiders contributing more of their share.


--- tangent alert ---

I gotta think, though, that a competitive generation will be born out of this though. If the U.S. continues to outsource manufacturing (and now pharmaceutical) jobs away from our lands (and really anything that touches U.S. payroll that can possibly go), what decent jobs will there be to afford all of those financial services that we all need in order to avoid U.S. taxation?

Currently, I avoide taxes as much as possible. I have a CPA, a financial planner, and an estate planner to help me avoid. I have a SEP IRA for myself and one for my wife, traditional IRAs for myself and my wife, variable life insurance, a Health Savings Account, and a 529 College plan most of which help me avoid taxation as best I can. I consider myself lucky that I can afford to pay for decent advice but I consider this advice and many of these accounts unnecessary when we have the FairTax.

Without the specialty financial services that have sprung up with their main purpose being to help us jump through the hoops that our tax system requires, many of these folks would have no choice but to either produce something tangible or offer a productive service toward the production of something tangible.

We need people producing in this country... not just offering us financial services to help us comply with the tax system without giving up all of our earnings.

Peace,

YK

YK said all that needs saying:
"We need people producing in this country... not just offering us financial services to help us comply with the tax system without giving up all of our earnings."

End of the story.


SS tax revenues in surplus
beowulfe writes: Thursday, April, 24, 2008 10:56 AM

Uh huh. So tell me, which of Bush's taxes increased taxes on those on the bottom?
---------------

Pay attention!
I didn't say Bush raised taxes on the bottom, I said Bush used a cut in Income Tax rates instead of a cut in SS Payroll Tax rates to rebate the SS surplus collected at Payroll Tax rates. Income tax revenues were NOT in surplus!

Using Income Tax rates to rebate surplus SS tax money collected at SS Payroll Tax rates has the effect of redistributing wealth from incomes under $100,000 to incomes over $100,000.
Get it?

Cons support redistribution of wealth
maldain writes: Thursday, April, 24, 2008 3:16 PM

Tax cuts aren't income redistribution.
---------------

Bush's are! You know it, and I know it.

When you use SS Payroll Tax rates to amass a tax surplus and then turn around and rebate that surplus using Income Tax rates instead of SS Tax rates you are, in practice, redistributing wealth.

And since Conservatives support Bush's tax cuts then Conservatives practice redistribution of wealth, no matter what they might say to the contrary!

REDISTRIBUTION OF WEALTH...Con Style
maldain writes: Thursday, April, 24, 2008 3:16 PM

Everybody who earns income pays Social Security.
-------------

Not true.

All Capital Gains income earned each year is 100% EXEMPT from SS Payroll taxes.

Bush's tax cuts rebated some of the SS tax surplus to Capital Gains Tycoons who didn't contribute one red cent to the SS tax surplus.

That is undeniably REDISTRIBUTION OF WEALTH, Conservative Style!


So...
Sen Clinton would raise taxes, and "doesn't think it would affect the economy".

Sen Obama would raise taxes even if it hurt the economy "because it's fair" for those who make more to pay a greater % of their earnings.

This is the reasoning power the Dem party offers.
Any questions?

Social Security surplus
It seems convoluted to argue that the social security surplus underwrote an income tax cut, especially since one is about 6% and the other is 35%. We would do well to note, however, that the reform of the eighties made everyone pay more than needed for decades. don't fall for that one again,
Obama is promising everybody who earns less than $75K a thousand dollars. They are always so stingy. I think it would be better for workers, if the elites would give up their favorite illegal, so Americans can go back to working on the side for a lot more than $1K/yr,
Overall, I think we should focus on doing good job helping those who cannot take care of themselves rather than sending little checks to people who can. A lot of poverty is in the ranks of Social Security recipients such as elderly women and disabled people. No mention of them,
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