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Thursday, October 04, 2007
Donald Lambro :: Townhall.com Columnist
For GOP, A Paradox in the Polls
by Donald Lambro
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Poll
Will the Dems' health care Christmas Present to America be an improvement or detriment to our health care system?


WASHINGTON -- Two stunning but little-noticed political developments have turned the race for the 2008 Republican presidential nomination into a two-man sprint.

The first is that Rudy Giuliani is leading the GOP pack in South Carolina, a rock-ribbed conservative state where you would think a socially liberal Republican would not be doing that well.

The second is that while Giuliani remains the clear front-runner in all the national Republican voter polls, Mitt Romney, who trails in fourth place in the same surveys, is leading in the first four party-preference contests in January.

Both developments say a lot about the changes going on in the GOP these days and, perhaps, about the weakness of the party's conservative wing in the presidential-selection process.

Conservative-movement activists who cringe at the idea of Giuliani as the GOP's nominee have been unable to unite behind an alternative. They have talked up Fred Thompson. But the word at the grassroots is that the former television and movie actor has been something of a disappointment on the stump -- unprepared on the issues and a bit lazy, to boot.

Arizona Sen. John McCain, whom conservatives have never trusted, especially on social issues or tax policy, has been fading. All the others in the back of the pack are not considered serious candidates.

Two forces are propelling Giuliani's candidacy. First, the former mayor, who led New York City back from the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, has staked out national security as his major issue at a time when terrorism and the war in Iraq overwhelm just about everything else.

He is seen as a tough, take-charge leader who fully understands the stakes in the war on terrorism and looks and sounds like someone who knows how to keep our country safe and win the war at the same time.

That counts for a lot among the party faithful, especially in conservative places like South Carolina.

Second, he is seen as the only Republican who can defeat Sen. Hillary Clinton, perhaps the only political figure who would unite a fractious party in the 2008 general election.

According to the latest national polls, Giuliani was ahead of the pack by an average of 27.8 percent, followed by Thompson at 22.4 percent and McCain at 14.4 percent.

But what are we to make of Mitt Romney, the far-less-well-known former Massachusetts governor who has gone through a conversion of sorts on the party's major social issues -- from abortion rights to gun control?

While pollsters and pundits alike have been focusing on the national horse race, where Romney trails with a mere 9 percent, he is leading in Iowa, Michigan, Nevada and New Hampshire -- the states that will kick off the GOP's nominating process next year.

In Iowa, Romney leads with 26 percent, while Giuliani is at 16.8 percent. In New Hampshire, Romney is ahead with 26.4 percent to Giuliani's 22.4 percent. In Michigan, Romney leads with 26.3 percent, with Giuliani at 18.7 percent. In Nevada, he is way out in front with 28 percent, followed by Giuliani and Thompson at 18 percent each.

How can Romney be leading in four of the six nominating contests in January when he is badly trailing in the national polls?

Part of the answer has to do with his business background and his skill as a venture capitalist who invested in small growing companies and built them into winners. He has plowed much of his campaign war chest into television ads in the four early caucuses and primaries and has reaped a high return on his money. His investment strategy is based on the time-tested belief that the heavy news attention and momentum he will derive from winning these first four contests will help him overtake Giuliani in the remaining primaries where the New York Republican is ahead.

"There are two schools of thought on this," independent pollster John Zogby told me. "One says that if a candidate is leading nationwide, that will help that candidate in the early states. But I'm in the old school. I think Iowa and New Hampshire are still the gatekeepers."

Zogby is skeptical of the national polls. "Sure, Rudy is best known. Why wouldn't the best known lead in the national rankings?"

But can Romney's strategy work in January?

"The political question this really poses is, Can a front-running candidate like Giuliani get pounded in Iowa, lose in Michigan and Nevada, and get beaten in New Hampshire, and not be hurt by that?" Zogby said. "I mean, that would produce some bad stories and headlines for his candidacy."

It's an unfolding scenario that has the Giuliani campaign worried, but one it believes the candidate can overcome by quick back-to-back victories in South Carolina and Florida before the heavyweight primaries on Feb. 5.

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About The Author

Donald Lambro is chief political correspondent for The Washington Times.

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RG or McC
As of today's writing, the GOP's pres race is between McC and RG.

At any rate, as bad as the GOP's victory odds in 2008 elections is right now, as less important it becomes who will be the final GOP's pres candidate. It really doesn't matter much, we will have to rally around the GOP's pres candidate, or just throw the towel and seat HRC as the 1st President of the Socialist Republik of Amerika.

The Bottom Line is that it doesn't help anyone in the GOP with our constant focusing on the negatives of each GOP candidate. That is the reason why right now people feel there is no one good enough in the GOP. This is a total false notion and a loser's attitude. What we should be focusing is on all of the good solutions the GOP has for Winning the Future and to contrast that with all of the bad ideas socialists have that if implemented will doomed all of us: higher taxes, open borders, lax homeland security, raised a white flag on the war on terror, deviants educators teaching deviancy as something normal and natural to our children, and the list goes on in saecula saeculorum.

Is this what you want for America? If not, then let's focus on American Solutions for Winning the Future instead of the self-defeating pessimist attitude prevailing among us Conservatives.

paco,
Good post but don't underestimate conservatives. We will not vote for Hillary.

Conservative Vote
CT writes that consrvatives won't vote for Hillary and that is a given, but will a third party vote or skipping voting altogether hurt the REP party? IF Rudy wins the republican nomination will enough conervatives stay home to give the election to Hillary? On the other hand if Mitt wins will the centrist independents get behind him to stop her?

I agree with Paco that we need to avoid shredding each candidate, focus on the positives and band together behind whom ever wins our nomination.

If Rudy gets the nod...
... many conservatives wwill vote 3rd party. If these RINOS are the best the GOP can do then tey desrve another trip to the woodshed, as they obviously did not learn their lesson in 2006!

The Lazy Media
Will somebody please cite examples of Fred Thompson's laziness during his campaign? I think the media is lazy in this presidential campaign race. The same old tired questions are being asked about the same old tired issues. The media whines that our Republican candidates are boring choices and it infects the public's perception when the truth of the matter is, the media is too lazy to challenge them to address other/more issues to mark their differences.

A time to fight
This is no time to give in to socialism. A Hillary victory would make France look good. We conservatives are understandably upset by the overspending of our own people. The Washington bureaucracy eventually infects all elected and must be sanitized with term limits. But first, not to pull together and fight the socialism of Hillary is unthinkable and unforgivable. Our children's country literally, hangs in the balance. The horror of socialism is here and is real.

Nominate Rudy=Elect Hillary

Republican voters still get to decide who their nominee will be. Money only buys elections when people act like sheep. If 80% of Republicans are indeed seeking a conservative, we can nominate one. We can nominate Duncan Hunter by voting in the primaries. The money players won't like it and are trying to convince us only Rudy McRomneyson can win. Hogwash. 49% of people will never vote for Hillary. Only 60% voted last time and turnout was the difference. My belief is Rudy would push turnout down. There might even be a third party, splitting the vote. Give Americans a chance to vote for a candidate who WILL secure the border and watch what happens to turnout. Americans want their government to fulfill it's most basic responsibility.

The primary responsibility of the U.S. government is to protect the territorial integrity and people of this country. They have completely abdicated this responsibility. Both parties have been complicit in this. We are being told it is not possible to control our borders, enforce our laws, and thereby control our destiny as a nation. Hogwash. We are being sold out by corporations intent on importing workers for jobs that can't be exported with the taxpayers paying the true costs, financial and human. If we act like sheep and don't stop the inundation across our borders, we will lose our country without a bleat.

http://www.gohunter08.com

Worst Case Scenario
In the worst of all possible cases, we would end up with Clinton/Obama v. Giulianni/McCain. At that point you may as well flip a coin because, with the exception of Hilary Clinton's alleged "loathing" (her word, if I'm not mistaken) of the military, you'd be getting essentially the same package in a different colored wrapper.

What the Republican Party doesn't need is a pro-abortion, pro-gay, pro-illegal-imigrant, pro-gun-control candidate for President. People talk about Hilary nominating a bunch of Ruth Bader Ginsburgs when she gets Supreme Court vacancies to fill (never mind the lower courts), what are we going to get if Rudi gets to nominate Justices?

Laimbrain lambro
Could it be that you pundits are actually misrepresenting the polls and the candidates because you want a liberal GOP? The pundits have called Thompson "lazy" since before he started the run, so is it any wonder that you can find people who will say that. As for the polls in S.C., are we being a little disingenuous here? Thompson is leading in 3 out of 4 polls. It is only ONE poll which has RINO Rudy leading by a wide margin that skews it a few points in his favor. I suspect that in that poll there was some tilt going on in the survey.

You people keep harping on RINO Rudy. If he gets it the communists(D) will win in a landslide and they will take the South for the first time since Kennedy was president.

Remember Ross Perot?
Yes, conservative Republicans will vote for another candidate when they are not satisfied with the nominee. How soon we forget or is the point of the article to prompt us to forget.

Republicans are by recent tradition conservatives of one bent or another. They stand firm on their principles and will not vote for a candidate who differs on the majority of their hot issues when there is another choice (3rd party).

Don't punish the USA
because you are not satisfied with the front running Republicans for president. The conservatives and like minded independents must vote for whomever is ultimately the candidate. To vote third party or stay at home to let the Republican leaders know we do not approve of the views in all issues will only guarantee a Dem win and our nation will suffer. Vote and then continue giving input to the president, senators and representatives. As a Christian I cannot punish the USA because all of my issues are not 100% represented by the candidate.

Just remember, folks,
Bad people are elected to office by good people who stay home and don't vote.

I see McCain as
the only candidate capable of cleaning clinton's clock on election day.
We are in a war, presented with a choice between McCain a decorated war hero, Naval Academy grad, war college grad with combat experience as a squadron leader and hillary who hates the military and has no clue as to how utilize it, it's a no brainer.
McCain has a consistantly high rating as a conservative, in the 80% range and he has been the most vocal Senator on pork barrel spending in years.

He might be a little liberal on some issues for me, but he is a pragmitist who knows whose money it is and he sure isn't a socialist and big gov't aficiando.

He's no flip-flopper and you'll never see pictures of him in a dress.


Clinton 2
Many Dem's and Independents will vote for Hillary because they think they are getting Bill back. I have said this many times Bill was the consummate politician, he lived and breathed the polls. As inept as Clinton 1 was, he was at least not dangerous like Clinton 2 will be. Hillary is an ideologue. She has also learned well how to play the political game from Bill. I hate to sound cynical, but the Republican party could run a toad against her and I would vote for the toad because SHE HAS TO BE STOPPED.

Bad people are also
elected when they are the "lesser" of the two evils and there isn't a dime's worth of difference between the evil.

Being a Duncan Hunter Man...............
.................it pains me a little to say:
Between Rudy and Mitt, I'll take Mitt. Smarter, much smarter, more moral, much more moral and a natural leader. Enough said. If you have a problem with his religion you don't have your eye on the ball.



Hold Your Nose And Lose Your Country

Securing the border and enforcing the law is the only way we get to keep our rule of law, our representative Republic, and our Constitution. If citizenship becomes meaningless, this will no longer be the United States of America.

If the GOP thinks they can continue to import cheap labor for their donors at the expense of the citizens, they will. I will not vote for that again. If we continue to play the game of "the other guy is worse", we will lose our country. Sorry, but I will not participate in that game any longer. The GOP power brokers think we will vote for "anybody but a Democrat" so they can continue to ignore securing the borders and enforcing the laws. I'm hoping GOP primary voters give the party elites some surprises in the primaries. The levers of power and the money in the GOP are all in the hands of the cheap labor express. They do not want Duncan Hunter as the candidate. He would enforce the laws and secure the border. We have to make him the nominee by voting in the primaries. We have to talk to our friends and neighbors about him. He is not going to get media coverage. It's going to have to be a grass roots effort. I want to vote for a GOP candidate in Nov.'08, I will not vote for any of the amnesty supporters. If it takes crushing the GOP so a new party representing American citizens can arise, so be it.

http://www.gohunter08.com

Socialism
Claims that if the Democrats elect Hillary we will become a socialist state fly in the face of the fact that we already are. Socialism is based on economics, not moral issues, and the majority of those who vote republican support the welfare system that we have already created. If you vote, you support the system. If you support the system, you are voting for centralized direct representative democracy - not a republic - and medicare, medicaid, social security, drug entitlements, farm programs, transportation pork, federalized education, corporate tax breaks and welfare, a system that transmits more dollars to small states per person than to states with larger populations, and a supreme court that long agro threw out the constitution and decided that it - not what was written on paper - was the constitution.

That's the system. No decision made for any candidate currently running will change that system - because no candidate running is remotely proposing to change it. And they're not proposing to change it because no candidate in either party could get their parties nomination if they proposed such a change.

Hillaryscare Won't Work

The so-called "top tier" will not get out the voters necessary for a GOP win. Increasing turnout is the key. Give people something to vote for. Not just the lesser of two evils. Won't work this time. People are fed up with the inundation of illegal aliens. They would come out in droves for the clear choice of D=amnesty or R=enforcement. They will stay home if they both equal amnesty.

There is a huge majority of American citizens waiting for someone to pledge to uphold the laws and secure the borders, let's ignore them some more.

http://www.gohunter08.com

Banal Column
The GOP race is a three man contest between Rudy Guiliani, Fred Thompson and Mitt Romney. Each man has about a one-third chance to be nominated. Romney must win Iowa and New Hampshire and ride a wave of publicity and inevitability to win the nomination. Guiliani must survive Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina so that he has some momentum for the early February primaries where he is in a strong position. As the most conservative man in the race, Thompson needs to survive Iowa and New Hampshire and win South Carolina.

If Guiliani is nominated, he will have to go south for a running mate. Haley Barbour is probably his best choice. He will have to allow conservatives to run HIS convention. He will be a nominee to the left of ninety percent of his party. Strange indeed.

And what happens if the Republican convention is brokered? There's a pretty decent chance of that happening.

It's not...
"Hillary for President."

It's "Hillary for Punishment."

VA Patriot is right
Rudy will be a disaster for the GOP. He is simply Hillary with a bald head. The conservative base is not demoralized, we are seething mad. The "moderate" Rep's have done nothing but compromise on principle at every turn and have failed to hold two consecutive presidents accountable for securing the borders. But Rudy is the answer? BS! As mayor he created a "sanctuary" for illegals in NYC for crying out load.

Rudy claimed in the SC debate that he had never heard of "blowback" as the reason for the 9/11 attacks. But he's the expert on fighting terror? He didn't even read the 9/11 report (or maybe he just lied to score cheap applause).

Rudy can beat Hillary? How? That warm and fuzzy personality? He ran against her once and pulled out of the race for "personal" reasons once it was too late to compete viably with a replacement. Oh, but Rudy claims his personal life doesn't affect his professional life.

Rudy is a fraud and a creep. I and many other historucally loyal Republicans will not vote for him under any circumstances.

A Choice?-
As has been noted, if you think Rudy and the female incarnation of V.I. Lenin are singing a different tune, they ain't, same tune different key.

Rudy should be judged on his record, devoid of spin, and not the sophistry issuing forth from his pie hole.

First Responders, their colleagues, and family members have gone to a great deal of trouble to inform the public, and to my knowledge, have done so without hope of somehow profiting from their efforts:
http://rudy-urbanlegend.com/ .

It is absolutely one's prerogative to stay home if they feel that neither choice offers any real alternative, and that is their business soley.

The differences here are cosmetic, pun intended.


MvShame LOL
Gil Favor died in South America. Rowdy Yates is in Carmel and doesn’t care. So if the Republican Party wants to round up their "Maverick" for the election they are in trouble. McShame has no chance and the only reason he is still in the race is so he can replenish his war chest and keep hopes for a V.P. slot.

W WallStreet Jounal article recently
told of the rich supporters of the republican party who have withdrawn support and given it to Hillary. I don't know if that is a "business" decision or not, but this is clear in my mind.....under no circumstances WILL I VOTE FOR HILLARY. How many other discouraged republicans feel the same way...half a loaf maybe?

TWO MAN RACE

.....Lambro ...

.....I believe the GOP nomination is a two man race but I see it between Thompson and Romney with the final nod going to Romney because of better organization and more money ...

.....I think McCain is dead meat ...Huckabee is a blip ...and Giulani has hit his peak ...

.....When Giulani supporters see that their man is beginning to slip they will switch to Romney as the next best bet .....COLOSSUS

My choice (currently)
After seeing Fred, wife and 2 children under 5 yrs of age being interviewed on H&C last night, I have determined Fred is too old and too tired to be the President I can trust and respect as a leader. As a NYC area resident and someone who was there when the WTC towers fell, I truly respect RG for his leadership skills but still am against his domestic views. I am now supporting Mitt Romney, a tried and successful leader who embraces most (not all) of my values. I hope that if he gets the nomination, he will choose Duncan Hunter as his VP. This would be a fabulous team.

timcranston
CT writes above, "...Don't underestimate conservatives. We will not vote for Hillary."

That is true. But a non-vote or a vote for a third party candidate, say, someone endorsed by Dobson, Viguerie, etc., is a half vote for Hillary.

Let's not forget
McCain/Feingold/Thompson. Yes Fred Thompson was a co-author on this legislative gem, but he doesn't want you to know that!

Conservative first / Republican second
I'll be voting for either Paul or Brownback in the primary - knowing that neither has a real chance to win. Ultimately in the general election, I'll hold my nose and vote for Mitt, Rudy, Fred or whoever wins the Republican nomination (except McCain. I can't vote for anyone who doesn't believe in the First Amendment.) Anyone but Hillary.

Vic, Eben, marine
We have a choice and we should definitely exercise that option. If the GOP loses, who cares other than die-hard GOPers who cannot see the truth. Both parties are internationalist in their heart of hearts, and power is what they seek, not the best interests of America. Between the two, they have engineered the entire election process to assure themselves a virtual lock on power. With this attitude, they engage in partisanship, not leadership!

The only thing that will turn around this slide into a one world socialist government is to stop the elites dead in their tracks, to not vote the lesser of two evils, to not do the same thing again and then expect a different result. That never has happened and it never will! If we want to reclaim the birthright the elites have stolen from us, we must act in a totally unexpected way. We should deny them the Presidency!! Believe me, THAT will get their attention like nothing else!

I urge you to visit my website, JOEOLIVAFORPRESIDENT.ORG It is the only place you will find a clear explanation of how we have stumbled into this mess that these elites have made of our great nation! You will discover the ONLY CANDIDATE who will stand up to them and give American voters, that "we the people" who are the true owners of this nation, a real stake in the outcome of what we do.

Check it out, why not? These elite hypocrites have stolen our inheritance right out from under our noses, and we should not be shy in taking it back!! I'm not! Thanks, Joe


for cat trapper
cat trapper writes: "If Rudy gets the nod many conservatives will vote 3rd party."

But if Fred Thompson or Huckabee is nominated, 90% of Independent voters will vote for Hillary.

And Independent voters are now a plurality in many parts of the country.

Karl Rove's "turn out the conservative voters" strategy depended on an underlying assumption: that the Independent vote would be more or less evenly divided between the Democrat and the Republican (as happened in 2000 and 2004). But if nearly all the Independent voters break for the Democrats (as happened in 2006), the Democrats win.

Too many Republicans are still living in denial: They don't realize that nearly the entire rest of the country dislikes Bush and is disgusted with the congressional GOP too. Such voters are not going to accept yet another southern social conservative like Thompson or Huckabee--he will remind them of Bush, Vitter, Foley, etc.

for Virginia Patriot: Stop the insanity
Virginia Patriot writes: "We can nominate Duncan Hunter by voting in the primaries."

I've had enough of these fantasies.

If Duncan Hunter became the nominee, WHICH STATES COULD HE WIN in the general election???

Could Duncan Hunter win Ohio, where in 2006 they elected the ultra-liberal Democrat Sherrod Brown to the Senate?

Could Duncan Hunter win ANY Blue States at all???

And if not, then without Ohio and without Blue States, how can Duncan Hunter get a majority of Electoral Votes in the Electoral College???

Do you want a candidate who represents your views EVEN IF that candidate cannot possibly win in the Electoral College???

That's crazy!


Poll paradox
This a very good article, I think reguardless which one of these guys get the nom. they would make a very good 1-2 ticket.

It is a Backward Coalition
The socialists have the support of an incongruent set of factions such as GLTB's, Muslims, far-left, ?liberals, secular progressives, atheists, Blacks, Hispanics, Mainstream Media, activists justices and rich ?people such as George Soros.
?
Therefore, the economic ideology behind socialism is not what is holding together the coalition. It is ?the un-official alliances product of promises, political platform, and activism.
?
Once the socialist are in power, there is going to be a jubilee, a short duration honeymoon period. ?Thereafter, realignment will occur due to power and control struggles.
?
In the short run, who will make the most advances? "Me" believe will be the liberals, pro choices, ?secular progressives and GLTB's. In the long run Islamists and terrorists will be the ones gaining greater ?power and control.
?
A preamble of how things are going to be we have right now in front of our noses where the senate ?passed a cloture motion on Kennedy's S.Amdt. 3035 to H.R. 1585.
?
The net effect will be a total trans-culture-ization, a society with no morals, and a nullification of our ?Constitution. The mess is going to be so chaotic that foolish Americans¹ are going to start ?contemplating Islam as the only alternative to Law and Order and the only solution to clean the ?Sodom-Gomorrah Society of the times. The America of our forefathers is long gone and forgotten, ?because even the historical archives disappeared, school text books have a different account of ?history. It is just as common and sacred as abortion is for the generations born after Roe v. Wade.?

A sea-change at the 2008 convention?
Something that hasn't been discussed much yet on townhall.com:

This campaign, the slates of delegates to the 2008 GOP Convention are being picked by the candidates themselves, rather than being chosen by the state parties as was the case in past decades.

That means that the delegates at the Convention who are pledged to Giuliani are likely to be just as socially moderate and pro-choice as he is.

If Giuliani is the front runner, that means pro-choice delegates could actually be a plurality at the GOP Convention.

In that case, there could well be a push to modify the 2008 GOP platform to be less socially conservative than it was in past campaigns.

In fact, if Giuliani is actually nominated at the convention, the GOP will have no choice but to change the GOP platform to be more socially moderate, so that Giuliani can feel comfortable running on it.
(Giuliani could never have run on the 2004 GOP platform, which actually extended Fourteenth Amendment protections to unborn fetuses.)

Hillary's overrated
Whomever the GOP candidate is will destroy Hillary is the debate process as long as they're asked real questions. Issues like illegal immigration, entitlements and national security will be Shrillary's downfall if the right questions are asked.

for Happy Jake
Happy Jake writes: "People talk about Hilary nominating a bunch of Ruth Bader Ginsburgs when she gets Supreme Court vacancies to fill (never mind the lower courts), what are we going to get if Rudi gets to nominate Justices?"

My guess is that President Rudy will nominate Mukasey to the Supreme Court.

Mukasey, whom Bush just named as his new Attorney General, was on Rudy's legal advice team.

Mukasey is VERY strong on fighting terrorism. He's the guy who helped put away the "blind sheik" into SuperMax. That's what Mukasey cares about--sticking it to criminals and terrorists. He's not that interested in the hot-button social issues like abortion.

Which reflects Giuliani's view.
And mine.

Those 4 jetliners on 9-11 were not hijacked by 19 abortion doctors. They were hijacked by 19 fundamentalist Muslims.
Rudy gets that. Mukasey gets that. And so do I.

GO RUDY!

Huckabee is the real answer to Hillary
I’m curious why you think Giuliani is the only candidate that can beat Hillary. IMO, Giuliani can’t, and won’t. Many social conservatives will be so disillusioned by a Giuliani candidacy that they will end up staying at home instead. It’s apparent to all real conservatives that Giuliani is at least a flip flopper, and most likely a liar and a hypocrite as well. His changing stances on things like gun control and abortion are not believable in the least.

There is only one conservative that can beat Hillary, and that’s Huckabee. No other candidate will be able to fire up the base, and yet simultaneously reach across to pick up independents as well. Stop trying to make Giuliani into the inevitable candidate that he is not. Because real conservatives aren’t buying what you are selling.

It is a Backward Coalition - w/o UTF-8
The socialists have the support of an incongruent set of factions such as GLTB's, Muslims, far-left, liberals, secular progressives, atheists, Blacks, Hispanics, Mainstream Media, activists justices and rich people such as George Soros.

Therefore, the economic ideology behind socialism is not what is holding together the coalition. It is the un-official alliances product of promises, political platform, and activism.

Once the socialist are in power, there is going to be a jubilee, a short duration honeymoon period. Thereafter, realignment will occur due to power and control struggles.

In the short run, who will make the most advances? "Me" believe will be the liberals, pro choices, secular progressives and GLTB's. In the long run, Islamists and terrorists will be the ones gaining greater power and control.

A preamble of how things are going to be we have right now in front of our noses where the senate passed a cloture motion on Kennedy's S.Amdt. 3035 to H.R. 1585.

The net effect will be a total trans-culture-ization, a society with no morals, and a nullification of our Constitution. The mess is going to be so chaotic that foolish Americans¹ are going to start contemplating Islam as the only alternative to Law and Order and the only solution to clean the Sodom-Gomorrah Society of the times. The America of our forefathers is long gone and forgotten, because even the historical archives disappeared, school text books have a different account of history. It is just as common and sacred as abortion is for the generations born after Roe v. Wade.


¹Actually we have evidence of this already happening right here in TH where some posters recently expressed sentiments of Islam being the fix for GLTB's.

SteveL 11:24am
I can't agree with your analysis. If "VA Patriot" wants to vote and support Hunter(during the primaries), what is your problem?

If Rudy is the GOP presidential cadidate, then I can see your problem. But he is not yet.

Don't say that Hunter (or Thompson) can't get any Independant or Moderate votes. As of 10/04/07, NO ONE knows that for sure.

The questions you ask:

"If Duncan Hunter became the nominee, WHICH STATES COULD HE WIN in the general election???

Could Duncan Hunter win Ohio, where in 2006 they elected the ultra-liberal Democrat Sherrod Brown to the Senate?

Could Duncan Hunter win ANY Blue States at all???"

will not be answered for another few months. At this time in the campaign it is all conjecture.

(Personally, I think a debate of Hunter against Hitlery would be a TOTAL loss for the Clintons.)

If you are for Rudy, fine. He is a good man. I too (like "VA Patriot") have problems with some of his past political views. But the primaries are where we decide who the candidate is going to be, and that is not a fantasy.

No 3rd Party
It was a 3rd Party which got Clinton elected. Has anyone taken notice of what this Democrat Controlled Congress has been doing?

We must unite and vote for anyone other than a Democrat. WE must take back the House & Senate and put anyone who isn't Democrat in the POTUS.

McCain whom I hate would be better than Hillary or Democrats.
Ruddy who I feel is more Liberal than conservative would be better than Hillary or Democrats.
Romney and his Religion is a better choice then an agnostic or Muslim who attempts to snooker American into thinking there are Christians and Religious. Romney would be better than Hillary or Democrats.
Thompson, Hunter, even Ron Paul, all would be better for America then Hillary or Democrats.

As long as the issues are involved in the selection process in voters minds, there should be no way that Hillary or any Socialists ever come to power. Unfortunately that is not how it works, with the Sheep who follow their Unions and the MSM, and those looking for Handouts and gimme's.


Jimmy D 11:54am
I agree with you; but I take it a step further. For the last 8 years I have not voted for a single Democrat (local, state, and federal). If the Democrat is running unopposed, I just won't vote in that particular race.

I will vote Republican, Libertarian, or Independent; anything but Democrat.

I am supporting Hunter (and Thompson) in the primaries. But who ever wins the GOP primaries (be it Rudy, Romney, or whoever) will be who I actively support and vote for in the POTUS election.

Mike Huckabee IS the candidate
He has the right stand on the issues. He has a track record of governing. He's a pragmatic conservative - which means he will support tax increases where infrastructure needs an increase but he will cut and veto taxes otherwise. He left a budget surplus in his state when he left office. Look what he did in the Iowa Straw Poll with barely ANY money!

But more than that, he can articulate where he stands in language that anyone can understand. He has a vision of where he wants to lead and he can tell you about it. He doesn't need handlers to tell him what he thinks. He knows the Clintons and he can match her and Bill point for point.

Mike Huckabee is the man with the plan. He's the real deal. Don't waste your vote on a man who cannot be elected.

Rudy Cannot Beat Hillary
Large numbers of pro-life Christians will vote third party if Rudy is the Republican choice. Go ahead GOP, make Hillary's day.

Calling your bluff
In poker, people tend to guess at what cards another person is holding, and in political campaigns, thats the similar tactic. I think very little of 'reporters' and 'analysts' who try to use this ruse, either to force my hand or to make me fold. Here's a bluff for you.

I won't vote for Guiliani. The mob's Republican or thier Democratic choice Hitlary are very good examples of what type of political crap comes from New York. The corruption and outright criminal activity by both parties and thier leaders is obvious and yet we pander to them, turning a blind eye and claiming 'it couldn't happen in America', when in fact that is how they have best operated, right under our noses.

Vote for anyone from New England, and you sell your children down the river. Neither of these two candidates will get even a consideration from me, nor anyone I know, so how is it the claim that they are the front runners? Somebody's polls?

Polling and statistics 101 folks.... any poll or statistic can be influenced to provide the desired outcome. I could create a poll and 'find' 1000 people that would vote for Santa Claus for President. Does that mean he will win?

REGARDLESS
Of who The Conservative Voter favors for The GOP nomination, I urge you to do 3 things:

1. DO NOT LISTEN to The MSM definition of the Candiadtes. Listen, Talk and MAKE YOUR OWN DECISION! REMEMBER, they told us Ronald Reagan was a Lazy, Stupid, Madman!

2. It is UNLIKELY you will agree with The GOP nominee 100%. You don’t agree with your spouse/significant other 100% either, does that mean you file for divorce?

3. In this election, A 3rd Party Vote is like having an affair, its repercussions WILL HAVE A LASTING EFFECT on The Lady WE ALL LOVE, America.

Choose Guiliani
He's a proven leader, a fiscal conservative, and law-and-order icon.

Choose whichever cons. you want for veep. My choice is Fred Thompson for name recognition, but Tom Tancredo or Sam Brownback would be fine.

Giuliani has the guts, perseverence, focus, and vision to defeat Hillary. The Dems. will run Clinton-Obama and then the MSM will attack all Am. with the slogan that a vote against them is racist and sexist.

The Reps. need a candidate who will not be cowed by the Clinton war machine and the favoritism of the press. As mayor of NYC, Giuliani was regularly called a Hitler and the worst the libs. can come up with--a meanie--but he served two terms despite them.

And he turned NYC around from a polity all the experts said was ungovernable to the attractive city it is again today.

The Primaries
When you vote in the primaries, chosse the candidate who most closely mirrors your values. Don't buy the propaganda being pumped out by the MSM. They want Rudy to be the nominee, they know it will split the GOP.
If a cross-dressing, former mayor of a sanctuary city who marches in gay pride parades reflects your values, vote for Rudy. If not, vote for the man you think would make the best President.

"President Hillary" hysteria
That didn't work last year, either, with the "Speaker Pelosi" hysteria.

If the best a candidate can say is "Hey! The other guy's worse!", that campaign's in very deep kimshee.

RINO Rudy the Bald Hillary is virtually indistinguishable ideologically from the Hillary With Hair, and is a total clone to Lieberman, which means he's running in the wrong party. He'd make a pretty good Democrat candidate. As a Repub, he's a sure loser to even a self-defeating candidate like Hillary. He will assure gun owners and other conservatives stay away in droves. In a political world where presidential elections are decided by a few hundred votes in a couple of states, Giuliani loses.

If we're going to have a lib in the WH, better they have a (D) behind their name, so at least the right party gets the blame for the disastrous lib policies that follow.

SteveL
Sherrod Brown was only elected because the voters of Ohio wanted to rid themselves of Mike Dewine (RINO). Amnesty got him defeated.

How Clinton was elected...
Clinton the 1st was elected because of the 3rd party vote.


BrianR
Check my earliest post to Blackwell's column :)!

renny - Focus - Part I
I agree with you about the HRC-Obama slogan.

What can we do to counter that? This:

1. Make English the official Language, because 85% of the Americans support this and HRC-Obama clan opposes.

2. Absolute Border Security, socialists want open borders

3. Small Government => Eliminate the IRS => Eliminate Income Taxes => Replace it with a flat tax (which 80% of Americans favors) or a consumption tax => We need a simple tax law not a complicated law saturated with loopholes that stimulates tax avoidance. => The socialists want to increase taxes, add more loopholes for the rich, to fatten the government and will oppose to a flat tax.

4. 89% of Americans want to have a secret ballot for union representatives before the state of the union, HRC opposes.

5. Hydrogen Economy => Energy Independence => we have great American Solutions on this area, socialist have NOTHING.

(To be Continued)

Come on, Third Party - Nader, that is
One of the problems we conservative Christians have, in addition to being half-wits, Neanderthals (per Kennedy), and suffering from the trisomy 21 chromosome (per Al Gore), is that we won't vote for anyone unless they are "sine macula" (L., without blemish.

We should know by now that third party candidates accomplish. They throw elections to the other side. Unless we can get Nader to run again, drawing votes away from the Libertine Left, starting a third party would be suicidal. Those who vote for such - or stay at home - are handing the election to the other side.

Jesus isn't running in 2008 and I am not sure He could win in this country if He did. So the rest of us can decide whether we want a weevil or the lesser of two weevils. If you wrap your robes of holy, righteous indignation about you and vote third party or don't vote at all, you will get the "worser" not the lesser of the weevils.

renny - Focus - Part II
(Continued)

6. We need to Rediscover God in America, the core values of our forefathers, we need to put back "under God" into the Pledge of Allegiance, we need to Reform our Education System to teach the core values of America, US History (as Thomas Jefferson wrote that the chief value of studying the past is "rendering the people the safe, as they are the ultimate, guardians of their own liberty". History by apprising them of the past will enable them to be a judge of the future."), the notion of one People (instead of the globalism & multiculturalism of the liberals). What socialists offer? More Folsom St parades, no God, rights for the deviants and freaks, more concessions to the Islamists, Habeas Corpus for the terrorists, GLTB's educating our children.

7. And I am just going to pause here to give YOU my fellow American the opportunity to point out more issues where we have solutions proven to work and the socialist have ideas proven to fail.

The Bottom Line is that the way to defeat our enemy is NOT by talking crap about our own and beating each other up; not even talking crap about our enemies, BUT INSTEAD talking about solutions the vast majority of Americans agree to that are in contraposition with the socialists platform.

paco
Love points 1 through 5. Are there more?

paco
I agree -- the message should be about content, ideas, and commitment -- not personalities.

LOL, Georgetwin
Thanks for the heads up and the reference over there. You're right, I have to go there and do some screaming!

HOWEVER, George
I don't know where you got the idea I'd EVER support Giuliani -- a better chance of a meteor landing in my back yard.


BillyBob
Yes there is more ... the problem I am experiencing is that there is a big delay in things being posted. Perhaps TH is getting a huge traffic. They will have to increase their bandwidth.

Enjoy!!!

BrianR
I KNEW you wouldn't. I saw your post here and had to laugh, because you did EXACTLY what I said you would 2 hours earlier :)! I RESPECTFULLY disagree with you, The Stakes are TOO HIGH!

The Stakes are TOO HIGH! - Part I


Georgetwin,

I wrote this last week and I think is in tune whith what you said.

Paco writes: Sunday, September, 30, 2007 2:14 AM
The Spirit of America - Part I
Defeated already?

It is very sad to hear how people are throwing the towel already. The consensus is HRC will be dems candidate and none of GOP's top tier candidates is good enough to fit in Ronald Reagan's shoes. Wimps!

When the road gets tough, the toughest gets on the road. I am a little disappointed NG decided not to run for pres or accept a VP ticket. Nevertheless, I think it is good to stay out for NG. American Solutions is becoming the most influential think tank ever in US History. Any organization administrator will benefit from this huge bank of solutions.

My point is that GOP's candidates need to wise up and nurture themselves with this bank of solutions at their disposition. The key to winning in 2008 Elections is not by constantly regurgitating the flaws and weaknesses of GOP's candidates or even worst to adopt a resignation to suffer 4 to 8 years of socialism in the hopes of recovering from the debacle. That would never happen.

People are not taking into account what 4 years of socialist administration would do to the War on Terror and to America's image. The far-left, liberals and secular progressives will force the socialists to raise a White Flag on terror. It will be too late by then. Only an armed revolution or a 2nd Civil War could turn us back, which I seriously doubt we have the WILL or the SPIRIT to take back the America of our forefathers. We lost the Spirit of America back in 1992 with BC. In 2000, we made a lame attempt to regain it. By 2004, MSM, liberals, the far-left and the SP's started gain terrain by using the same tactics of the late 60's and early 70's that left America in disgrace when South Vietnam was lost to the communists.

(To be Continued)

The Stakes are TOO HIGH! - Part II
(Continuation)

Paco writes: Sunday, September, 30, 2007 2:45 AM
The Spirit of America - Part II
(Continued)

You cannot even start to extrapolate or forecast 4 years of socialism with what happened in the 4 years with Jimmy Carter. It will be worst, it will be too late, there is no turning back, and the Spirit is already gone. The USA will NEVER EVER recover from 4 years of socialism under HRC. GOT IT???

What we need to do is to be constantly talking to our family members, friends, neighbors, co-workers that there will be no turning back possible if the Socialists win in 2008. We need to get militant, create a SENSE OF URGENCY, do some accounting among family and friends, make sure they go out to vote, and help them to vote either by providing transportation or by volunteering to help the handicap to vote. IT IS THE ONLY WAY WE ARE GOING TO DEFEAT THEM.

I applaud the ideas Paco advocates,
The problem is the Republican Party is led by con-artists skilled at telling Conservatives things they like to hear and then DOING NOTHING about them.

If the GOP nominee runs on them I guarantee you not one of them would be fulfilled. NOT ONE.

A 3rd party should form around conservative causes because the Republicans simply aren't accountable.

The Giuliani candidacy is the ultimate culmination of 9/11 Republicans who insist that principles are something we can no longer afford.

The people who are enthusiastic for the GOP today are those who are content with things the way they are and only want to keep Democrats out of office.

Even in a Republic you have to be accountable to your electorate. The performance of the GOP in the last 12 years is simply unsatisfactory.

It's just not enough.

I applaud the ideas that Paco advocates
The problem is you'll never see any of them enacted. NOT ONE. This is because the Republican Party is led by a bunch of con-artists very adept at telling Conservatives things they want to hear, then doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to get them passed and making excuses for why they failed.

A 3rd party SHOULD be created around conservative principles, because the GOP has simply become unnacountable to conservatives.

The Giuliani candidacy is the ultimate culmination of the new GOP 9/11 mentality, which says that principles are something we can no longer afford. It's a mentality of desperation.

Even if Hillary Clinton becomes President (which if you listened to Rush this morning you'd realize is NOT inevitable) she'd face Republicans with the Senate filibuster.

Just as the McCain-Kennedy immigration bill was ultimately strangled there, so will Hillary's socialist ambitions.

Watch the debate on Novak's Column today
Romney is being analyzed (pro and con) and his religion bandied around by some folks knowing very little about his belief system. Newly posted are some doctrinal basics in the form of statements of belief or Articles of Faith. Number 12 on that list is a positive statement of patriotism towards one's native land. That statement alone should take the wind out of people's sails who are bashing Romney on the basis of his being LDS.

Without the distracting, backbiting of people (who have been spoon-feed garbage about supposed LDS beliefs)stirring the political pot with their freaky fear comments about Romney because he's LDS, people are free to look at his record as an executive in several important arenas: business, government, and the Olympics.

Yes, we do need an executive who can manage well during a crises. Any body who seeks the highest office in this land better have more experience than having slept in the White House for a number of years, Ms Clinton. And those who only have Senatorial experience are short on real leadership experiences such as managing and being help accountable for results.

Mitt is a viable candidate. He has my vote.

BrianR and Pistol
were in tight agreement in 06 and still are. If HC gets in she will likely be such a disaster, that the reaction to her may be our only hope to turn things around. Electing Rudy won't do it. He might slow things down, but all that means is that the frog won't jump out of the pot. Take a look at the 11% congress. Refusing to vote for RINOs has given Bush the guts to actually VETO something. Pelosi et al are suddenly being asked whenwould you take the troops out of Iraq. HC is abeing asked what she would do as President. In other words, we have a measureable chance of a real conservative resurgency in 08. It certtainly won't be Rudy or McC who gets my primary vote, and i can hardly see anything they could say to get my vote in the election. Its early times as yet, but I don't see anyone top tier coming out for immigration law enforcement, and winning in Iraq. They had their chance, my eye is on second tier now.

I watched Fred Thompson last night.
He looked more than tired. As much as I hate to say it, he looked weary. I got the impression he would rather be in some men's club sipping fine old brandy, or off somewhere fishing, rather than campaigning for POTUS. I like the guy, but I just don't see him getting traction. I lean toward Romney now, only because I think he could win. Never Guiliani. The man is a poseur. NY may be one thing, but trusting America to his safekeeping is something else. Sorry.

I am conservative gay
I am a gay conservative who shudders at the possible election of Hillary. Evangelicals are expressing dismay over the nomination of Romney or
Rudy. Can someone tell who the evangelicals could get to run in a third party that could attract enough votes? I don''t see that person, yet.

A 3rd Party - Are you crazy?
I do not know, but this smell fishy ... who in the world is coocking such a rotten idea?

Americans, listen up, wise up, beaware of who is proposing catastrophic ideas. A 3rd Party IS NOT a proven to work American solution in the the past. Make no mistake, it is not a solution now nor in our future.

A proposed 3rd Party may be viable 8 to 12 years from now. There is no energy left to divert into such enterprise.

Two thirds of the GOP will leave the party to form the proposed "Conservative Party". Right now, we do not need more divisions, because Democrats have a strong coalition and a weird set of alliances that would not be attracted by a 3rd Party.

Just remember, "Divide et Impera", that is, divide and conquer, it worked for the Romans, it works in math and in computer sciences (D&C Algorith), but it will kill America as we know it today.

To Paco
If you don't remember Bill Clinton was elected in 1992, when Ross Perot entered the race. If Perot had not been in the race Clinton would not have been elected in 1992.

The Primary is where....
Conservatives CAN have differences. Once the candidate is selected, we must support him. And WE MUST, on a local level, ELECT CONSERVATIVES TO THE HOUSE and SENATE!

I disagree with Paco's 4:38pm post that no armed rebellion is possible. In the worst case senario, I believe it is.

Georgtwin

Speaking of affairs. The die-hard republican apologists have been ridiculing Hillary for not leaving Bill after his many betrayals. "Oh she's just sticking with him because it's politically expedient for her." Well, the GOP betrayed their base and most republicans are willing to forgive them because it's convenient. Not me, I divorced those bums and have been happy ever since. Even found myself a new "friend" in the Libertarian Party. She may be a little flakey but man, what a ride! Liberty is quite an aphrodisiac. So stick with your cheating lout if you want, I don't blame you. Some people need security.

Marine writes 9:42 AM

Gyrene. I followed your link. Looks like Rudy is just what i thought he is. A big Fake.

http://rudy-urbanlegend.com/

Among the big three or four Mitt Romney is the only one with real balls and real heart and a real brain along with real morality.

I want Duncan Hunter, and if Thompson could convince me, I would want him. He hasn't. So the choice is getting narrowed. Mitt is looking like a real alternative to the other "can get nominated bums".


Gray Ghost
Few people have any idea of how small a percentage of armed ruthless people can direct the majority. The muslim jihadis are probably no more than 2 percent. What do you hear from the other "moderate,peaceful" muslims? They will go along. The Taliban ran most of Afghanistan with only 40,000 armed men which is about 0.5 percent. If the vets and cops decided to take over, who would stand in the way? Robert? Lilly? TCA? They refuse to even admit there is anything worth defending here. And if they did, what would they defned with? The edops page of the NYC. The ACLU? A teeny percentage of KKKers was a powerful force in this country for 150 years. Why? Because most of those who disagreed with their creed and tactics were too gutless to get involved over something they couldn't see as enough of a danger to fight for. Libs never see anything as really worth putting their butt on the line for. As soon as they lose the protection of the sheepdogs they are the mercy of anything, even sheepdogs turned wolf.

Gray Ghost

I agree with all your comments, including all the possibilities.
=========================
""I disagree with Paco's 4:38pm post that no armed rebellion is possible. In the worst case senario, I believe it is.""
=========================
Paco wasn't born here nor did he have people in the revolutionary war like a lot of us. In my case we're over the 350 year limit. All possibilities are on the table when called for albeit cautiously and with a considerable degree of surreptitiousness.



James Dobson
James Dobson, like Pat Robertson at one time, now thinks he is the king-maker in the Republican Party. Being a gay conservative, I am distressed by this fact. Dobson's hatred of all gays never fails to amaze me. I would suggest that you go to the following website: http://www.gaypatriot.org

To Gray Ghost
You chose a good name for a Republican. John S. Mosby fought for the Confederacy and earned the nickname the Grey Ghost. After "the" War, he practiced law in his state of Virginia but became a Republican, when being a Republican in the south was almost a hanging offense.

The fact is that the War Between the States settled once and for all that any state once in these United States could not leave the Union. Lincoln always referred to the war as "The Rebellion".

The Plunge into Total Delusion
> If the vets and cops decided to take over, who would stand in the way?<

Take over what? You think vets and cops will break into a meeting of the Sierra Club and kill everyone?
Maybe arrest the entire city of San Francisco and force them to study the Bible behind bars?
How about invading every major college campus and lynching the liberal professors?

You think there's even the remotest possibility of that happening, much less that it would be a good thing?

You're not very familiar with America.

Swampfox
Swampfox writes: Thursday, October, 04, 2007 5:55 PM
To Paco
If you don't remember Bill Clinton was elected in 1992, when Ross Perot entered the race. If Perot had not been in the race Clinton would not have been elected in 1992.
=================================================
Thanks, excellent example. A 3rd Party allways eats up the GOP, as Swampfox recalled.

Check it out for those young guys out there, here: http://www.uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/national.php?f=0&year=1992

Rudy Can't Win
The justification for Rudy's nomination is that he can beat Clinton. There is no more justification.

The latest 3 head to head polls show Rudy getting kicked by Clinton.

ABC/WP, Rudy 43 Hillary 51
Fox, Rudy 39 Hillary 46
Rasmussen, Rudy 43 Hillary 48

Those were taken before the Religious Right threatened to form a 3rd party if Rudy got the nomination.

Rasmussen reports today that 27% of Republicans will support a 3rd party candidate if Rudy is the nominee.

With a 3rd party, Hillary gets 46 %, Rudy gets 30 % and the 3rd Party gets 14 %.

Today the Rasmussen tracking poll has Fred at 22, Rudy at 20 and Romney at 17. That is a statistical dead 3 way dead heat.

The justification for a Rudy candidacy is gone. He can't win if the Religious Right do not support him.

Hell, BG
He can't win without us gun nuts, either.

Since 1980 the GOP nominee has won every time, and only when, endorsed by the NRA.

This is an era when presidential elections are determined by a few hundred votes in one or two states.

Alienate a few gun owners if you're the GOP nominee, and you're toast.

NOW throw in the Religious Right, and you're an embarrassment.


James C. Dobson
The funny thing about Dr. James C. Dobson, the self-appointed king-maker of the Republican Party in 2008, is that he is not a Reverend. He is a psychologist who goes against the grain of the findings of the American Psychologist Association on the subject of homosexuality. Yet, today he is the standard bearer of evangelical Christians.

More things concern me about this country than the gay issue. Illegal immigration is illegal immigration, period. Islamic fascism has to be confronted. It is going to be a long war that will continue even if a Democrat is elected president. Islamic fascists make no distinction between Democrats or Republicans. And, no country has ever taxed its way to prosperity. Even Germany and France have realized this with the election of Sarkosy and Merkel.

signed, a gay-Christian Conservative.

onceamarine
Hacedme un favor, decid lo que sepáis con certeza sobre mí. Nací en este país, no soy inmigrante, mis padres tampoco lo fueron y mis abuelos o fueron naturalizados o adquirieron ciudadanía por decreto. Corregid vuestra errónea información sobre mí persona, os lo agradeceré.

To Paco
Paco writes:

onceamarine
Hacedme un favor, decid lo que sepáis con certeza sobre mí. Nací en este país, no soy inmigrante, mis padres tampoco lo fueron y mis abuelos o fueron naturalizados o adquirieron ciudadanía por decreto. Corregid vuestra errónea información sobre mí persona, os lo agradeceré.

Sorry, but I am an American. Remember, Americans only understand and speak English. Is there some button I can press on my computer to get this in English?

Paco
Parece que te debo una disculpa. ¿Vos sos gringo y jue putita como yo? Me pareciera que fueras de origin extranjera. ¿Me disculpes por favor?

Lo bueno es que sos conservador de principios aunque a veces si sos como yo se confundan ciertas condiciones que no son bien definidas de color rojo o azul.

Arriba la bandera de la independencia de pensamiento. Buenas noches.

No me dejaron decir la palabra P.

Que pase buena noche Paco. Y regresemos al inglés por el bien de los demás.





Swamp Fox

As a conservative of a different stripe, surely you can understand that Americans can speak any damm language they happen to have handy.

Press one for English. And learn a second language. It shows intelligence or at least a stab at trying to be educated.



Swampfox
I'm glad to perceive you are in the right side.

As a Conservative, you are aware that we do not want to add terms such as "sexual orientation" and "gender identity" into the USC.

As a Christian, you are aware what the Bible says in Gen 19:1-29; Rom 1:24-27; 1 Cor 6:10; 1 Tim 1:10 and what your church denomination says about homosexuality.

Certainly, you are also aware that as Christians we love and care for the sinner even though we abhor the sin.

Certainly, you are also aware that as Conservatives we respect the right to Privacy. IMO, privacy is two-way.

Therefore, you understand why Conservatives do not want changes to the definitions of marriage and gender, nor want addition of non-immutable traits at a par with other immutable traits in our Civil Rights.

At any rate, let's vote to defeat the socialist in 2008 Elections.

Paco

The reason I believed that you are of foreign origin or at least were educated primarily outside the U.S., is that you commit certain small mistakes in grammar that are normal for someone of "Latin" origin, which of course includes several non Spanish speaking countries, ie,. France Portugal, Italia, etc. Your real name isn't especially Spanish and yet you use "Paco", and write the way in English someone who was not totally conversant would write, but better than a lot of gringos write in any case.

For instance the word "in", ie., you are "in" the right side, should be "on". Whereas in Spanish "en" can be both words so it becomes somewhat confusing or let's say forgetful as to which to use in English.

Your English is really quite good. Probably better than my Spanish, which as I get older, gets a little rustier.



Swampfox
When I was in the Army, I used to go to the Spanish Mass in Fort Belvoir, VA, because those folks had a super cool choir and I loved their hymns, music and definitive their beat. We used to have a Polish Priest, Father Tadeuz Mich, a Scientist, a professor of Anthropology at the Catholic University in Wash. DC, PhD in Anthropology, gave mass in Russian and Polish to Russian and Polish communities in Silver Spring, MD, and knows 8 indigenous Amazon's tribes languages out of 18 that he studied and documented during his Master Degree Research and missionary vocation/duty throughout several Latin-American Countries that have tributary rivers to the Amazon River. Father Tadeuz was a student of late Pope John Paul II in Poland.

He used to joke about Americans. He would ask one of us, how would you call a person that knows two languages? That was easy, someone will quickly say bilingual. Good! Father said. How would you call a person that knows three languages? Someone was not as quick as before, but answered Trilingual, Father. Very Good! Father said. How about a person that knows four languages? Quattro-lingual, someone in the group dared to guess. Not bad, you people are fast learners. How about a person that knows five languages? A long pause, but someone kind shy asked: Penta-lingual, Father? Father reply: not wrong at all, but not quite right, in common usage, a person that knows four or more languages is a polyglot. Ok my Childs, this one is easy: How would you call a person that knows only one Language? Someone faster than a lightning say: I know Father, a unilingual! Nope! Said Father Tadeuz. A monolingual, Father? Nope! Said Father. A single-lingual, then! Nope! A person that only knows one
language is an American!!!? Said Father Tadeuz Mich.

Swampfox, there are several online translators available to you. What I wrote was intended just for onceamarine and no one else. BTW, having a 2nd language proficiency is a plus in the DOD.

Paco

Great story. I have more respect for you every time you open your mouth, or, er, your keyboard. I feel rather short with just two languages plus Southern. Some of us consider Southern to be a language rather than a dialect or an accent. I would tell you a military story from years ago, but TH and Google wouldn't like it.

My father was old school and rather well educated. He spoke English of course, outstanding Spanish, adequate Portuguese, considerable high German and a smattering of Greek, Cantonese Chinese and Italian. (he was a veritable walking dictionary in the English language) Yes, some people have a knack for languages, but as you said, "most" Americans don't even try.



And to all a good night
Buenas noches y buena noche.

I like Hunter
I like Duncan Hunter. Things can still shake out. Remember the dems washing the laundry in public the week before the election that got them the congress back? Who knows what will come out in the wash that I am sure the dems will time to their advantage.

If the fundamentalists go away mad, they can kiss away the Supreme Court because Hillary will put her kind of people on it who will be there for years and years and years. And who knows what will happen with her presidency. While Bush used eavesdropping for national security, I could see her using it to keep tabs on what people are saying about her. She sort of strikes me as an "ends justifies the means" kind of extremist and her ends are anything that makes her more powerful and richer and also her like minded fascist fellow travelers with government control over every breath you take, every bite you eat, every opinion you utter, or hear. The ad showing Hillary as Big Brother were not far off. Time to reread "1984".










onceamarine
You're in!

Well of course, you are very right, that is due to being educated part of my life overseas. I'm ?good at a couple of languages. I "hang around" with many polyglots. Whether you like it or not, consciously or unconsciously, some real "bad" habits start sticking to you. The thing is that it is ?natural to try to blend and instead of being an annoyance by constantly correcting others in proper grammar and pronunciation, you end corrupting (that's kind strong statement) your own language.

¿Comprende amigo?

Is that bad? I don't think so, Roman "Romanized" many Greek words and that enriched their vocabulary.

We have to recognize that there will be communities with a concentration of people from other parts of the World. What we need to concentrate is to make sure our kids learn US History and that they are proficient in English.

You start talking like them. It gets worst ... when I was a child, my grandparents did not speak English, go figure. Even worst, we have 7 Masses in St Isaac Jogues, Orlando, FL, from those 3 are in Spanish and guess what, I am in the Choir of the Saturday Night Spanish Mass. So, what can you expect? The parish is composed about 2/3 Hispanic. About half of the Hispanics go to the English Masses, not me, the English hymns puts me to sleep. I love the Spanish music liturgy. One of our choir members is German, knows very little Spanish but sings beautifully in Spanish and understands enough to be dangerous. Nah ... just kidding! What is amazing is that she learned Spanish on her own, because like me, she likes the Spanish Mass music.

That's the thing! English SHOULD be the official language of our Nation, but we should also learn other languages, it pays to be a polyglot. I learn pretty well to speak Korean in just one year I was stationed in Yongsan, Seoul. I haven't used it in 15 years but I still remember how to greet and ask simple questions.

My apologies ...
I forgot to clean all of the UTF-8 characters and some of them showed up.

I was lazy, forgot to spell-check and to organized my flow of ideas, consequently I jumpted thoughts ... anyways ... probably you will have to read it twice ... at least that is what I did ...

zzzzzzzzzzzz... Thanks God I'm off tomorow Friday ... oops today!

Good night! I mean Buon giorno! ... That's Good Morning in Italian.
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