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Monday, September 24, 2007
Donald Lambro :: Townhall.com Columnist
Hillary's health-care nightmare
by Donald Lambro
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WASHINGTON -- No sooner had Hillary Clinton unveiled her latest plan for universal health-care coverage last week than the Club for Growth was denouncing it as another attempt at socialized medicine.

The title over the economic-growth advocacy group's statement said it all: "It's Baaaaack: HillaryCare Redux."

The New York senator and clear front-runner for the 2008 Democratic presidential nomination is known for many things. But in the recent annals of federal-reform plans, she is best known as the architect of a fiendishly complicated, government-run health-care insurance system that was so unpopular the Democratic-run Congress refused to bring it up for a vote.

In her second try at wholesale reform, Clinton says she's learned from her past mistakes. But for all her centrist-sounding makeovers and political camouflage, she remains a big-government liberal to the core. Her latest plan would put the all-powerful federal bureaucracy in charge of our private health-care system, lock, stock and barrel.

The elements of an expanding government regulatory nightmare are all here: massive government subsidies, higher income taxes and employer mandates to provide employee health-care coverage no matter what the costs, a sweeping mandate that requires all Americans to buy insurance and a regulatory takeover of the health-care system from the states by the feds.

"With each passing day, the collectivist nightmare that is a Hillary Clinton presidency is crystallizing with frightening clarity," said Club for Growth president Pat Toomey.

The plan she has proposed provides scant details, preferring to paint her campaign proposal with a broad brush. The details, she said, would be worked out by Democratic legislators that rule over health-care policy, people like Sen. Ted Kennedy of Massachusetts and New York Rep. Charlie Rangel.

But even at this early stage, her plan is riddled with ominous signs that HillaryCare II could be just as bad as the ill-fated plan of 1994 that many in her party could not stomach.

How much would it cost taxpayers? Clinton's price tag is $110 billion a year, but analysts say her plan will cost a lot more than that. A similar plan offered by Sen. John Kerry in his 2004 presidential campaign would have cost about $1.5 trillion over 10 years at a minimum.

Then there are the employer mandates in her plan with the heavy hand of the government forcing businesses to provide health-insurance plans for their workers. But forcing all small businesses to provide health-care insurance benefits for their employees would be a disaster for most of them.

Most small businesses operate precariously on the profit margin and government-mandated costs would bankrupt them.

One of the least noticed but biggest policymaking changes in her plan would transfer health-care regulatory authority from states to the federal government. "I think it ultimately leads to more government-run health care. There is no way around that," said Charles Kahn, president of the Federation of American Hospitals.

Then there is the specter of price controls in her plan, which would invariably lead to health-care shortages, longer waiting periods and poorer service. "In her explanation of the federal rules, Mrs. Clinton says that national rules would help insure universal coverage, preventing persons from being charged 'excessive' premiums, while preventing 'excessive' profits on the part of insurance companies," said Robert Moffit, director of the Center for Health Policy Studies at the Heritage Foundation.

"There are no explicit price controls, but obviously federal officials will be charged with making sure these objectives are met," Moffit said in an analysis of the Clinton plan.

Clinton insists she would let people keep the private plans they have now, but part of her plan would allow Americans to buy into federal health-care plans -- putting the feds into direct competition with private-sector health insurance, which is the backbone of the health-care industry.

"If there is a public alternative to the private market, the public market is going to have a hard time competing," Kahn told me.

This isn't the direction that health-care reform should be taking. "Instead of socialized medicine," Club for Growth's Toomey said, "we should be deregulating the health-insurance industry and opening it up to innovative reform that increases competition and lowers prices, making health care more affordable for everyone."

For example: Arizona Rep. John Shadegg's Healthcare Choice Act, which would allow insurance companies to comply with any state's regulatory rules and let them to sell plans in all 50 states, is a needed reform.

Another solution to help bring down premium prices is to eliminate the costly web of government health-care mandates that have driven up prices beyond the pocketbook of many Americans. Let insurance companies offer a broader choice of plans under a larger range of prices.

In the meantime, Hillary Clinton's second stab at health-care reform has led to many of the same complaints heard in 1994. Maybe she didn't learn from her mistakes after all.

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About The Author

Donald Lambro is chief political correspondent for The Washington Times.

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In one brushstroke
Hillary showed us her marxist leanings. "You can't get a job without insurance???" SHe might have cost herself the election with this latest SNAFU.

Health-care Comparison
Could you help me out here? What is the health care initiative being offered in this election by the Republican candidates, for comparison?

stormrunner:
Why should the federal government be involved in health care at all? Are you a ward of the state?

The federal government could improve health care by becomming less involved, not more.

Stan: What Specifically Do You Propose?
Stan writes:

“Why should the federal government be involved in health care at all?”

Or, for that matter, why should state or local government be involved?

Initially, I ask Stan what his position is on government involvement in health care for the indigent, for children, for elderly, for veterans?

Then I would ask Stan what his position is on government involvement in drug regulation, infectious disease control, regulation and licensing of health care practitioners and health care facilities?

Then I would ask Stan is there no level of health care that, in the common good, might be considered mandated by government? What about emergency care at an emergency room, or due to an accident or disaster? Should the government be involved? What about a life threatening accident or illness to someone who cannot afford medical care? Should these people just be allowed to die with no involvement of the government?

And past these situations of crisis – when is in the common good of the community that its citizens have reasonable heath care that is preventive in nature, such that worker productivity is not reduced?

I don’t pretend to have the answer, nor do I want a nanny state. I believe in personal responsibility. But I also believe in balance, and think there are situations where, in the common good, the government is appropriate in mandating or providing these services.

I did live abroad for over nine years in two countries. The health care was excellent. There was no paper work or red tape – ever. My doctors had time for me and treated me holistically. I could pick my doctors. We are arrogant not to learn some lessons from the rest of the world.

Stupid, stupid, stupid!
If you call "mandated insurance" socialized medicine then I'd be for it. But it isn't and I'm not. What we need is Medicare-for-all, and we needs blogs that look at issue resolutions rather than the party that submitted them.

Stormrunner
If you would be kind enough to eliminate Medicaid and medicare, and remove the tax deduction for business to provide health insurance as non taxed compensation; we would see a radical, and positive, change in our health care. The other night I heard a list of estimated projected costs for medicare, etc. etc. and what Congress proposed compared to the actual cost was at minimum a factor of 10. Catastrophic care was budgeted for $5 billion and cost $11.8 billion the first year, so bad that Congress actually shut down the program. The list given was scary at how gov't programs (especially give aways) grow like horny rabbits! And do we really want the same people in charge of Walter Reed Hospital in charge of our Health Care??

Medicare-for-all
The American healthcare system is fraught with profit-taking, with the two most egregious being the for-profit insurance bureaucracy and the pharmaceutical industry.

The first is dispensable and must be eliminated from the system, as it drains 31% of health care resources without ever providing direct patient care.

That’s the free market system conservatives have been calling for. We have it now and it is eating us alive. Obviously socialized medicine (like our VA and armed forces healthcare systems) would fix it, but a Medicare-for-all system would do just fine and leave hospitals and physicians private. Call it socialized insurance, if you will, but it would cut the waste and provide the right patient care.

stormrunner
As I have said before, clear out the illegals and the County Hospitals and ER's would magically have room for REAL Americas, like they used to.

I came from a poor family and as a youngster, was often treated at the County Hospital for stuff like a broken wrist, etc. We paid what we could and we were NEVER refused.

Now, with 12 MILLION illegals crowding ER's and County Hospitals nationwide, with some folding up shop due to the costs, it gets harder and harder to treat REAL Americans.

Want lower health-care costs? Deport the illegals and STOP STUPID health-care torts by ambulance chasers like The Breck Girl!

Innovation versus Bureaucracy
There are inherent problems with centralizing health care and placing it under the control of the Federal Government. For one thing, states are more apt to be in touch with particular health care needs within a given region of the country. What’s needed, and what works in Miami, FL may differ from Barrow, AK. The problem with the Federal Government is that it operates under a one-size-fits-all mentality. A Federal Bureaucrat, who stays largely within the confines of Washington, DC, is hardly knowledgeable about health care needs and solutions 3,000 miles away.

Centralizing health care would also depersonalize services in that the bureaucrats that would be running the system would be out-of-reach and out-of-tune with the end user. Have you ever gotten a clear and timely answer to a straight question, or an inkling of human compassion, from any of the existing Federal Bureaucracies (IRS, Social Security, etc.)?

The Federal Government has never, and probably never will, operate with efficiency or cost-effectiveness. This is why the Federal Government has contracted-out many services that it used to perform. Someone finally wised up and realized that good old American competition and innovation in the private sector is much more apt to result in ingenuity and cost-effectiveness. Nationalizing health care would be a step back in the wrong direction.

Should there be some Federal Government oversight of health care? I believe this is necessary to some extent; however, the states should retain the flexibility they require to oversee the health care needs of their citizens and the private sector should not be regulated to the point of killing innovation.

stormrunner
For answers to all of your questions, refer to the U.S. Constitution. I realize that most liberals are completely unfamiliar with that particular document, and as a result the country is drifting toward socialism. But still, it really is quite informative, and studying it gives you an appreciation of just how much wiser the men of that day were in comparison with the blathering idiots of today, such as Hillary. Hillary is just the latest in a long line of Marxists who think they have the perfect solution to all our problems. Never mind that past experience has proven again and again that this tripe doesn't work, has never worked, and will never work. The only problem is that all of the past failures lacked Hillary's genius.

I know that you bleeding-heart types think that the federal government is the solution to all problems, but consider this: there was no health-care crisis in this country before the feds got involved with tax deductions for employer-provided insurance, Medicare, and Medicaid. Simple fact that no one wants to acknowledge. Coincidence? Maybe, but the federal government in this country has a well-deserved reputation for taking any problem and making it worse.

ALL
Überprüfen Sie mein blog auf heutiges hartes schlagendes erstes Teil einer Reihe mit drei Teilen auf liberalem Huhn wenig in der neuen Geschichte.

Or in English:

Check my blog for today's hard hitting first part of a three part series on Liberal chicken little's in recent history.

Hint: Liberals been whining since the 1800's!

Thoughts!
I am neither brilliant nor mentally challanged! I am just a mostly average American who has been her a while (65 now and still going!). I try to read, listen, discuss, and keep informed on our country's economics, politics, etc., but especially what guides our country and provides our freedoms - which are our Constitution and Bill of Rights. And as an average, reasonably well informed American, I say Hillary Clinton and many like minded, or is that acting, people are full of descriptive hyperbole! And last, I would like to state you cannot Agrue with Ignorance nor Debate with Stupidity. Some one I know and respect calls this - people with the dreaded "AIDS Syndrome"!

HAND!

The leopard still has the same spots
So far it seems everyone has forgotten the attempts to make the second ammendment a health issue.
It doesn't matter to the Anti Constitutionalists it health insurance bankrupts us all.
The real target is the Bill of Rights.

Thet say, They mean
When libs say they want to provide everyone access to health care, they really mean they want access to your money to pay their doctor bills.

Hillary's Health Care Plans
Folks, I'm going to throw this idea/notion into our debate this morning. There are a whole host of reasons why we don't want socialized medicine in this country. But perhaps, one of the most ignored reasons has to do with the concept of ever increasing government obligations equalling ever diminishing purchasing power of the dollar. The more deficits we run, the more the dollar's purchasing power is abased. To anyone out there familiar with trading FOREX, they know this is true. Just look at a daily, weekly or monthly chart of the dollar at futuresource.com and you'll see this. The dollar is down. We don't need to make this situation worse.This is not to say we do not have compassion for the 44 million uninsured. But Emotionalism/ socialized medicine is not the answer.It does no one any good to be provided socialized health care and then discover that there cost of living has still gone up. That's what will happen with an ever lower dollar.

Let's make this clear
Whenever the government gets involved, if they hold the purse they get to make the decisions!

Regardless whether or not the plan is "socialized medicine" or "socialized insurance", look at Canada, the UK or Cuba for indication as to how those programs are flawed and failed, and how the government limits access to necessary, life-saving and even basic treatments.

Why else would many Canadians cross the US border to receive health care? Why did Castro fly in a doctor from Spain?

It's not because they're living in a health care utopia. It's because they can't get what they need because the government sets quotas and limits.

My favorite story (if you can call it a "favorite", since it's disturbing), is about a woman who LOST HER BLADDER because Canada limited the simply procedure she needed to 12/year - putting her on a 2 1/2 year wait list. Yet this is what Hillary thinks is great.

The only thing that's "fair" about socialized medicine is that EVERYONE has crap-tacular health care! Yay, equality!











When someone,
regardless of political persuasion, can name one federal bureaucracy that operates efficiently, cost-effectively, earmarks adequate funds for research and development, establishes a user friendly process for goods and services, and provides an incentive for its employees to provide superior customer service, I may view utopian socialism as a possible solution.

I will not hold my breath looking for the proverbial goose that laid the golden egg.

Deregulation leads to innovation and lower costs; socialism leads to stagnation and higher costs (or a steady decline in quality).

There are many things that can be done

to "fix" our health care system, NONE of which involves Socialized medicine.

How about hospitals limiting their mark ups on, oh say... EVERYTHING?

Ever notice that the hospital will charge $5-$8 for A TYLENOL? The same pill they probably pay $.002 for?????

And, here's another favorite of mine. Ever notice the difference between what a hospital charges and what they'll ACCEPT from an insurance carrier? It's a very small percentage...

So, why won't the hospitals ACCEPT the same very small percentage from someone who is not insured?

A few years ago I had emergency hernia surgery. Fortunately, I had exceptionally great insurance, and didn't even have to pay a deductable.

The interesting thing was, if I had to pay the bill out of my own pocket, I'd be bankrupt, But if they ACCEPTED from me the same payment they ACCEPTED from the insurance carrier, I'd have had the bill paid off in a month or two.


Doctors?
What do the majority of doctors have to say about this? Has anyone asked? If Hillary does get her way--how many doctors will stop practice all together? Will we have to import less-educated doctors from other countries? How many new students will go into health care when they are gauranteed to work for a HUGE government program--with all its pitfalls and underpay? What about the science wing of medicine? How many advancements do you think they will undertake at huge costs to themselves and a gauranteed NO PROFIT margin? When will we see a poll about this? A lot of questions--I'm still waiting fot he answers.

beyond the pale: You WON'T get any

answers because you're right on target!





beyond the pale
has a good point about importing doctors from other countries. I haven't been to England so am no authority, but I understand that many of their doctors are from some pretty backward countries. Not a knock on those doctors, but if their health care system has truly brought this about, it is something worth considering. Never, ever forget; government is the problem far more often than it is the solution.

Hillary Is A Genius!
In the mid-nineties there were twenty seven companies producing vaccine in this country and plenty of vaccine available whenever it was needed. Public health agencies immunized, for free, anyone not able to pay. But Hillary, sensing that America's children were at risk created a 'Central Vaccine Warehouse' and 'reformed' the regulations governing the manufacture of vaccines. The warehouse they obtained was not refrigerated and the giant stockpile of vaccines spoiled. There are now three companies producing vaccines and many vital vaccines are produced by only one company. Supplies are much less available. Now this genius wants to apply this same level of expertise to the entire medical care industry. Yelling the word "FREE" will probably make the swing-voter lemmings go made with extasy and take us all over the cliff.

skep41: Who was the idiot who called

HELLary the "smartest women in the world?"

Man, are we in big, huge trouble!

No where in the world is socialized medicine working... much less better than what we have in the US.

ONLY the less than intelligent and ill informed could possibly buy into HELLary's socialized medicine sham.



And here's my question, for the 8th time

How is it that the lemming liberals go ballistic over the notion of a Nat'l. ID Card (to protect our identities from being stolen) and a Voters Card (to ensure that only those eligible to vote actually vote) because they say it's too intrusive in our private lives....

YET, they have no problem with the government having access to, and control over, what is truly the most private thing in our lives... our health and health care.


conservative david brooks says
The plan she unveiled Monday is much simpler than the one she came up with 14 years ago. Back then, she and her staff were like technocratic engineers, one of her advisers told me, trying to patch every last gap in their edifice. This time they were content to leave the details of the plan to Congress.
Last time, they threatened people who were satisfied with their health coverage. This time they reassure them that nothing will change. Last time, they were out of touch with the American values of choice and individual freedom. This time they emphasize those values every chance they get, never seriously considering a Canadian-style single-payer system.
This time the change is evolutionary, not revolutionary. The private insurance/employer-based system will still remain the heart and soul of the social contract — it's just that more people will be given tax credits so they can afford to buy in.
The Clinton plan makes life politically difficult for Mitt Romney. Clinton relies on an individual insurance mandate. So does Romney's plan in Massachusetts. The Clinton plan also takes the brave step of taxing the wealthy for gold-plated health-care benefits — a reform that almost every Republican health expert endorses. Meanwhile, the plan seems to have driven John Edwards around the bend. The statement he issued Monday qualifies as the shrillest statement issued by a major presidential candidate this year.


by the way just what is the republican plan to fix the health care system?

lol they have none

HC
I actually went to her website and read her plan. I think it was written by a gopher because I haven't seen so many holes in a long time.

We don't have a free market
"That’s the free market system conservatives have been calling for. We have it now and it is eating us alive. Obviously socialized medicine (like our VA and armed forces healthcare systems) would fix it, but a Medicare-for-all system would do just fine and leave hospitals and physicians private. Call it socialized insurance, if you will, but it would cut the waste and provide the right patient care."

What we have now is fsctist healthcare. A system in which the government spends almost $3k per person can hardly be called "free-marketet."

religiouslibidiot: The only thing

different is that HELLary is going about this in increments... That means, a little at a time.

THIS time she's saying that those who have private health insurance can keep it... no questions asked (now THAT'S mighty big of her!)

IF, heaven forbid, she gets elected (shoot me!) how many months does one suppose it will take before that will change and lots of questions will be asked about private health insurance?

Of course, you didn't read the previous posts because there were a couple of suggestions about how to "fix" what is the best health care system in the country..

How about you answer my 10:32AM post?



What the market would do (1)
A week ago I had my cat spayed. The whole job included blood work, a major surgery, and a couple of vaccinations. They threw in trimming her claws.

The cost? $165. That's all.

Let's just say that for a human, the cost would have been a lot more -- maybe 100X that $165.

Why? A DVM is as educated as a basic MD (although most MD's specialize, and so they do in fact go to school more than the standard DVM).

I realize that this is not an apples-to-apples comparison; the same operation on a human would have at least one more Dr. involved (anesthesiologist) and several nurses that are more educated than the assistants at the pet clinic. And the pet clinic is not amortizing the multimillion dollar cost of new CAT scanners, MRI machines, etc. So no, you will never be able to get major surgery on a human for $165.

But also: cat surgeries are paid for out-of-pocket, so all the expensive paperwork connected to insurance is eliminated; and people shop for better costs, because it's coming out of their own wallets. DVM's in general work under a lot less regulations than do MD's, which saves money. And the DVM knows that if anything goes wrong with his surgery, he will not get a quick visit from the Firm of Shyster & Shylock -- no malpractice penalty with the cat!

TO BE CONTINUED...

What the market would do (2)
(Continued from previous post)

To get human health care to run more like cat health care (which works well and costs a fraction as much):

(1) The first thing to do, before any other reform, is to cut the lawyers out of the loop. Simply redefining malpractice from from ordinary negligence to gross negligence to gross negligence would be a big help. An MD shouldn't have any more to fear from Shyster & Shylock than a DVM has.

(2) Regulations should be simplified -- this always lowers costs. For example, many drugs and devices that are available only as prescriptions should be available OTC. Some drugs still would need prescriptions -- narcotics, antibiotics, and things like heart and blood pressure drugs that have to be carefully regulated. But in general, the more people are able to take care of their own health care (or anything else), the less it costs.

(3) Most medical care should be paid for out-of-pocket, just as veterinary care is, so people shop for care. This could be accomplished by health savings accounts.

Hillary Care won't fix anything, and will make a whole lot more trouble, because it doesn't address the real issues. If you want to see what health care should look like, take you cat to the veterinarian.

anne
thanks for the insult of my nickname. glad to know you respect other opihions than your own.

to anwer your question-you should become more informed .

the national id card controversy is bipartisan
http://www.conservatives.com/tile.do?def=campaigns.display.page&obj_id=134894

and if you read david brooks article what you say is simply untrue.
of course as everyone knows many conservatives don't base their decisicons on facts just their emotions.

religiouslibidiot: Just because david
brooks wrote it, doesn't mean that it's fact or that he right.

All it means is that he wrote it.

What HELLary is proposing, and will force on us should she be elected, is SOCIALIZED HEALTH CARE.

"... become more informed..." does NOT answer my question. But, it's a typical liberal response...


Republican Health Care Plan
People keep asking for it so here it is IMO..

Step One: Remove Gov from the evolution. I saw someone ask about the indigent, poor, and Veterans.
Being Active in the Navy I can tell you the Veterans are taken care of.. Dont think so go to any Military hospital and see how many retirees are waiting for perscriptions. Then think about the fact that Gov runs that.. Avg wait here is about 2-3 hrs. Sorry not looking for that.
Now lets actually define indigent and poor. Of the 44 mil that dont have health insurance, how many illegals were counted in that. How many people in there are 18-35 and CHOOSE not to have health insurance but make enough to actually afford it should they choose to.

Step Two: Remove Gov from the evolution.
Under Hellary we would force employers to provide health care.. Great idea now of those small businesses that basically run our economy how many would disappear tomm from the cost. Now bring into the fact that once those business disappear all the people that worked there are now unemployed. Yep that really solved their health care problems. Now they have to do what Hellary really wants rely on the gov to provide health care through like medicare and medicade. Basically all of us that managed to keep our jobs now have to pay for them too.. Thanks Hellary just what i wanted.

Step Three: Remove Gov from the evolution.
How about we allow insurance companies to compete with one another for our business. Package plans the way that the conusmer feels is right for them and that will then cause the prices to come down because the market will not pay over inflated prices for long.


Republican Health Care plan (Cont)
Step Four: Remove Gov from the evolution
Lets bring back the pharmacutical companies that did testing and devolping of new drugs and vaccines.. stop regulating them or getting pissed when they make money.. Once that happens health care costs will go down because medicine costs will go down.

Look at things like plastic surgery while still expensive the costs have fallen signicantly because most insurances wont pay for that. What happens well in order to stay in business the surgery had to become affordable enough for people to pay with their own dime.

Now if we just let the capitalist market take care of insurance im quite positive the same effects would take place.

Always remember the market will always correct itself. Consumers will not freely allow themselves to be ripped off without there being consequences for the merchant.

reganite
you are uninformed, hillary care is an exact duplicate of romneys system in mass.

the individual would be required to have health insurance not business just like in mass and just like you have to have insurance to get your drivers liscence.

sheesh


Hillary's Healthcare
First, EVERYONE and EVERYONE has access to healthcare. Insurance is a different matter -- not everyone has health insurance, for a number of reasons. But being uninsured does not, repeat NOT equate with no access or healthcare.

Secondly, listen to Hillary's own words when she says she envisions the day when you would have to show proof of healthcare insurance to get a job. What a communist -- and she is. This is nothing more than the government TELLING us what to do.

I believe in liberty. Liberty requires personal responsibility. Now, I don't mind helping the truley indigent. But I'll be damned if I'll allow the government to tell me what to do with my own health. Not to mention the will raise taxes when they don't need to.

Seriously, whey universal healthcare? Why? No one has answered the question as to why I should allow the government to run my healthcare. Why not simply provide healthcare to those who truly need it? Oh wait, we do, it's called Medicare/medicade -- not to mention the fact that one cannot be turned away for inability to pay.

nick in austin
you can't get a drivers license without insurance either.

is that marxist or common sense?


by the way that is the same plan romney has in mass. is he a marxist too.

religious lib
I may be mistaken but i have never been asked to show proof if insurance to get a DL .. to buy a car or when stopped while driving yes.. but if i dont own a car but want a DL what exactly am i suppose to be insuring?

anne i answered your question
with a link which you obviously did not click on.

i repeat hillarys healthcare plan is almost exactly what romney put in place in mass.

he did not call it socialized then.

it is up to the individual how to handle their health insurance not the government.

of course you don't want to believe that because you don't want to have to change your pre-concieved ideas.

religiouslib
Romney's health coverage plan is going to be a sticking point with some conservative voters precisely because it is a big government plan. So, no, this is not the *Republican* solution to health care; it's Romney's. Just because it comes out or Romney's mouth and Romney is a Republican does not mean that it is automatically the Republican approach to healthcare. A position does not automatically become a conservative one just because one individual with an (R) behind his name endorses it.

As far as our solution, we're bristling with ideas, whether or not we have a candidate right now endorsing them (and I don't know that we haven't, I haven't looked on their stands on the issue.) However, there's nothing wrong with preferring the status quo to a "fix" that will make things significantly worse. If your suggested treatment for cancer is a grenade and I have no alternative suggestion, that does not automatically make your idea superior to doing nothing.

ahenobarbus
i agree generally, that is the same way i feel about social security.
i am not really advocating for hillary just pointing out it is not what many conservatives think of when they refer to socialized healthcare.

OK, let's see if we can kill
this specious comparison to auto insurance once & for all. When you expect the following from you auto insurance:

To purchase it tax-free, with pre-tax earnings, with your employer picking up half (or more) of the cost;

For your auto plan to pay for 50% of your operating expenses (fuel, oil, tires, wiper blades, and washer fluid) and 80% of your routine maintenance (brakes, tune-ups) and repairs;

And to pay 100% of repairs & maintenance after the first 12,000 miles each year;

THEN you can make the comparison between auto insurance & a health "insurance" plan. most of which have become, in actual practice, discount plans.


Healthcare
When all the Senators and Congressmen give up their current plans to opt for hers, I'll think she may be on to something. Until then, it's just 'Clintonspeak' translated to 'vote for me'

the dims on any issue
no matter how many plans the dims offer they assume everything will otherwise remain the same. Increase taxes and people will still have the same amount of money to spend. Remove all choices and people will still be satified with no choice other than the govt mandated options. The dims decide to longer protect the country and world peace will break out. But other than their lust for power there is nothing to dim proposals. That the missus clinton plans to include illegals in her new health nirvana shows she is not thinking of americans but is trolling for a larger dim constituency. Exactly how this no nothing empty accomplishment witch can come up with anything of value is beyond the pale. She has lived off the govt teat for so long that she can only visualize more govt as her solution to everything. Exactly when has she ever championed capitolism to solve problems. She is so blinded by her socialist leanings she knows nothing else.

Not incidentally,
put those conditions on auto insurance & watch the costs of auto repair escalate astronomically, too.

refusal to read and debate
have any of you actually read her health care proposal.
do you understand that if you have private health insurance you can keep it.
do you understand that it is very similar to mitt romneys plan for mass.

there are no panceas but at least she is proposing something.

what are the doom and gloom conservatives proposing .

why nothing of course.

Say it isn't so......
....that the American people would even consider to allow those two Clinton Bandits back into the White House! Perhaps another chance at the furniture,the china and flatware?

Health care? No. Hey Hillary,I want something useful like a lesson on how can I can take a $1,000 and turn it into $100,000 in the Commodity Market?

Over to you .....

Touj and Slummer
Where are those CARING Americans? Where is the caring American who cares enough for me and my family (the way I am to care about them) enough to say --

"Hey, ya know, you have kids, a morgage and your own life to worry about--I'm not going to engage in dangerous behaviors so that you will not have to pay for my health care, I care about you that much."

That is how I live my life--where is everybody else at? I do not engage in recless driving, dangerous sexual liasons, drugs, smoking, alcohol, simply because I cannot pay for it--and God forbid-- if I get a long term illness-- cancer or MS-- we have an investment/savings account to help pay for expenses (plus the payment to health insurance every month). I don't believe someone else should have to be responsible for me and mine. That is how much I care about my fellow American--How about you? Do you care about your fellow American enough to say "I will not take food from your child's mouth to pay for my health care."

Because for me and many others--any more taxes and it will LITTERALLY be taking food from our dinner table. Do you care about me and my children enough to NOT advocate for this kind of socialized health care? Or is it going to be "Tough luck, do your social duty! If you don't have enough money for food you should stand in line for FREE health care!"

religiouslib
What happened to fixing social security, medicare, medicaid & the cost of sending 2 & 3 & 4 year old Babies to school?
Those things are going to cost close to a TRILION dollars.
Why were these things dropoed from the discussion?

religiouslib
What happened to fixing social security, medicare, medicaid & the cost of sending 2 & 3 & 4 year old Babies to school?
Those things are going to cost close to a TRILION dollars.
Why were these things dropoed from the discussion?

EQUAL HEALTH CARE FOR ALL
How about a health care system in which: there are no insurance companies, employers no longer provide health care insurance, and a single payer simply pays the bill without interfering with actual health care, the doctor---patient relationship? Sounds like Medicare, which works well for many.
Transferring health-care regulatory authority from states to the federal government does not ultimately lead to more government-run health care. The government does not run the doctor---patient relationship. Regarding transfer from state to federal, that would mean fifty less governments involved and fifty less sets of political shenanigans involved.
Price control, if properly handled, will not lead to health care shortages, longer waiting periods and poorer service.
"Putting the feds into direct competition with private-sector health insurance, which is the backbone of the health-care industry" This phrase from Mr. Lambro's article defines one of the major problems: everyone talks about industry, costs, dollars, political regulation, and very few people talk about health care, the doctor---patient relationship. Making health care a commodity lies at the heart of our flawed system.
To believe that competition among health insurance companies is a solution is foolish. The degree of complexity of choosing which health care coverage is right for you, your spouse, your children and then negotiating with a company whose guiding ethos is the dollar bill is just not going to lead to equal health care for all.
Senator Clinton's plan is nonsense because she panders to the health insurance industry and keeps them in charge. But the republicans are no better. None of the major politicians offer real change to benefit everyone because that would interrupt BUSINESS AS USUAL. We can't have that can we? We need to keep that going and continue to place health care as a lesser agenda than the dollar bill.
R. Garth Kirkwood M.D.
http://www.equalhealthcareforall.com

pandm
i am not sure what you are talking about but the iraq war is costing us that same amount so maybe we could have two solutions in one.

What You Don't Know
The Concept of Insurance is for everyone to offset the costs to the individual. However, with Insurance Companies being allowed to Close Insurance Policies and reopen new ones, they are in fact violating this basic concept. The closed policy hence will receive no new healthy policy owners and those still in as they age will experience more health issues, driving the costs up within the Policy, forcing other healthy to change Insurance companies, again forcing cost to skyrocket even further. Eventually all those that remain in this policy will either be forced to cancel and are no longer insurable or their monthly premiums will be out of this world. Congress allowed this to happen being bought off by Insurance Companies in the Past. All Insurance Companies violate the people by closing policies and they violate the basic concept of insurance when they do it. We need to address this issue with our present Congress, but as long as Insurance Companies continue to buy their votes, don't expect much too happen in Congress.

ok, enough of the heartless....
conservative crap. I am not wealthy, and I am a conservative. My husband has worked 2 jobs when money was tight, has gotten 2 degrees while working a full time job. How much of my money am I supposed to fork over to the imperial federal goverment to help the less fortunate (gag) in our society. Will someone please give me a percentage. When is enough going to be enough. I take care of my own, and expect others to do the same. Alot of peoples health issues are based on their lifestyle (not all, but most). I have several family members that have had cancer more than once and came out ok after treatment. But, one of them is still puffing away on cigarettes and the other one is still 100 pounds over weight. They take no responsibility for their own health, but they sure do want it fixed when something happends

Learning about insurance
Anyone who can remember back to the days when health insurance was called "major medical" and didn't cover half of what it covers today probably knows that the concept of commercial insurance has morphed and mutated considerably since its inception.

I am horribly concerned about the possible mandate, nationwide, by the Democrats that all Americans must have health insurance. I continue to ask myself -- HOW can a government, whether it be local, state or federal -- demand that people buy health insurance? How can this happen? And to those ignorant readers who don't equate this mandate with the advent of socialized medicine, they are probably just too young to have any historical perspective.

Doctors and insurers have the game well tied up. The last thing they want is interference by patients. Anne brought up an issue this morning: The hospital might charge $4,000 for a particular procedure, but when the bill gets paid by the insurer, that hospital will "accept" $1,000 for the procedure because that is the amount they negotiated with the insurance company. They write off the rest. It's routine; it's done every day for literally thousands of procedures and tests. It is called operating within the insurance contract.

Learning about insurance, part 2
Here's the rest of it. For anyone who has health insurance, when was the last time you asked a doctor, an X-ray facility, a lab technician or ANYONE at all involved in your health care what a procedure or test would cost? The vast majority of patients don't. Even if they did ask, 90% of the time no one will tell them. They will hear something like, "Oh, your insurance will pay for almost all of it."

In fact, even if you aggressively ask the cost of something, if your insurance is involved, you cannot GET the answer. The reason is -- no one really KNOWS the what cost is. Hospitals and physicians know what they bill to the insurance companies, and they know what insurance companies will pay them. Insurance companies know the amounts contracted for all procedures and tests. But just about no one actually knows that the ABCDEFG lab test actually COSTS $58. What they do know is -- the lab will bill for $108 for it and the insurer will pay $19 for it. You, the patient, will never be able to find out what it actually costs.

And -- let's see, we now need for everyone to go out and get health insurance, right? Save us from the Democrats -- and maybe some Republicans too. What we SHOULD be eliminating is insurance companies.

Finally, in answer to Anne's question this morning, patients SHOULD, absolutely, make an effort to find out exactly what insurance companies pay for this or that procedure; and patients without insurance should ALWAYS negotiate and bargain with hospitals and physicians to reach a fair price up front. ALWAYS. Never presume you can't afford it. BARGAIN for it aggressively and you will be surprised.

EQUAL HEALTH CARE FOR ALL
Medicare-for-all was the subject of an earlier commentary today from Mr. J. Lohman, and I believe it outlines one of the major problems with our health care system: egregious profit taking. In addition to the for-profit insurance industry and the pharmaceutical industry, the not-for-profit hospital system in this country engages in mega profit making that greatly contributes to the escalating cost of health care each year. (www.wherethemoneygoes.com) The business mechanisms in place in our health care economic market place cause this and allow it to happen.
Another person, Anne, has suggested that the fixes for our health care system do not have to involve Socialized medicine. She suggested that hospitals limit their mark ups. I happen to agree with that idea but it will never happen in our current for-profit, multi-payer system because it would be disadvantageous for their bottom line. It and similar ideas can only occur in a single payer system that actually places fair controlled prices on services and product designed to maintain necessary profitabiltiy but not greed. I view this as socialized insurance and not socialized medicine. I do not believe that such a thing as socialized medicine actually exists because I believe the definition of medical care is the doctor---patient relationship. These are individual relationships formed by two people joining mutual trust. I think the concept of socialized doctor---patient relationships is off the mark. I also believe that in America it is a whole lot less likely that the government will try to interfere with these relationships than the health insurance industry, which for so many years has greatly interfered with the working of that relationship.
To fsudenny's comment from 9:09 AM, I respond that I have developed a single payer system that will deliver his utopian dream.
R. Garth Kirkwood M.D.
http://www.equalhealthcareforall.com
doctork@equalhealthcareforall.com

religiouslib/I don't know that HELLary's

plan is exactly like Romney's, but it's close enough, which is one of the reasons why (in my opinion) Romney will NOT get the nod.

In PA we have CHiP which is an insurance plan for children whose parents don't have insurance and/or can't afford it. I'm not sure what the maximum age for children to qualify, but there is NOTHING mandatory about it.




The only impending health care crisis
in the USA is additional government intrusion.

The analogy between auto and health insurance as a prerequiste to societal privleges is inaccurate. My driving behavior may affect the life, limb and property of another person called a victim. My health affects noone except myself (excluding the transmission of infectious diseases).

If my tamper proof health insurance ID card serves the purpose of ridding society of the illegal immigrant invasion and puts me in a VIP security line at the airport, sign me up.

Separation of State & Federal Government
"When all government, domestic and foreign, in little as in great things, shall be drawn to Washington as the center of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated." --Thomas Jefferson to Charles Hammond, 1821. ME 15:332

Hmmm...

Coercian contrary to human nature
Hmm, repeated calls for "the Republican heathcare plan" as if Hillary's bad, coercive plan is better than just continuing on as we are right now.

Generally speaking, when people have to be coerced into complying with something, that means it is generally contrary to human nature. For example, if I could have every dollar that I ever paid into Social Security back RIGHT NOW (for I was never asked if I wanted to contribute) and never had to pay into it again, I would leap at the chance. Even putting into a simple CD or money market account would be better for me than Social Security.

Why would I favor a coercive government program that is contrary to human nature?

Anyone's Plan
None of the plans, Republican or Democratic, suggested are without mandates and costs. The vested interests, physicians, hospitals, HMOs, insurers and pharmacueticals are all making record profits under the current healthcare system. We need some freedom from government mandates that are basically mandated by state insurance requirements. Large employers self insure and do not need to follow costly mandates. Nonetheless, none of the plans will make it through Congress. We need some incremental change that breaks the back of central financial control. See the Healthcare Access Card suggested at http://www.healthcaresoundoff.com.

missus clinton
yesterday, when questioned about opposition to her health plans how many times did the missus clinton laugh rather than answer the questions. This is an obvious sign she is uncomfortable with both the question and her proposed program. We are told these are serious issues but when questioned missus clinton laughs them off as though they are inconsequential. The dims/libs/socialist continue to give the fraud clinton cover, aided by their willing surrogates in the msm. Guided by no more than hatred of president bush and their lust for power, the left offers nothing but empty promises that will never be kept or impossible to impliment without large tax increases that will always fall short of what the dims project their nirvana will actually cost but never actually solve the problem

SCHIP
Anne,

If im not mistaken the deocrats are actually trying to expand the SCHIP.. they think that it needs more funding.. I believe to the tune of 5bil.. but im not 100% on that.. Well i think thats one of the programs wasting money.. Think about it on that program a person 23 years old making 30,000 a year still qualifies for medical coverage through this program.. I may be wrong but i believe any single person making that much money can afford their own insurance if they were to choose to.

anne
Nothing mandatory YET is what you should say. After all it is the Government!

The premise that physicians
are making big bucks -- especially general practitioners -- is far from the truth. Most family physicians and general practitioners make a six-figure income -- but one that is in the lower 100s, not the upper 200s.

Easy for everyone to say that doctors make too much. But it's not the doctors, for the most part, who are making a huge profit here. Who do you want operating on you, removing that tumor -- a physician working in a socialized system who makes $70,000 a year or a physician in a free market system who makes $230,000? Me, give me the free market anyday.

The real profits in today's current health care system go to 2 entities: commercial insurers and large drug companies. And in case no one wants to address it, we have an ENORMOUS and burgeoning problem with uncompensated care in this country, including the care given to illegal aliens. To say nothing of fraud.

Sorry, Dr. Kirkwood, but a single payer system such as Medicare is clearly not the answer. If it were, it might already be working. And clearly, it's not.

religiouslib
The things i mentioned were a HUGH crises during the last election.
The war(though sad) is paid in part by production increases in the products used in the war. Meaning jobs Not a good reason for war though.

reaganite & pandm: CHiP not mandatory!

YET! Good point! But I believe Romney's plan in Mass was mandatory if someone did not have insurance...

We know that HELLary's SOCIALIZED Health Care plan WILL be mandatory in time.

That's exactly what she had in mind when she thought she and bill had been elected co-pres.

HELLary is a socialist and ruthless, among other things, but stupid she is not.. Make no mistake about that.

She knew she couldn't get her SOCIALIZED Health Care plan passed before, so she's simply attempting to do it one step and a time.

Remember the "YET!"

Remember the "Frog in the Pot?"





Touj
You didn't answer the question--so I will phrase it another way--If you care so much about others why do you want to take food from my table to pay for a third party that niether you or I know?


Catch
I don't know about the rest of you but I find one very big problem with Hellary care that was brought up in this column. I definatly DO NOT want a drunk in charge of my health care! Putting Kennedy in charge of any government program is akin to putting the libs in charge of the war!!!

Reading this is driving me crazy!!

Why isn't anybody talking about the responsibility of the poor? If they don't have insurance, then WHAT CAN THEY DO TO GET IT??? If we truly want to help them, stealing money from other people to pay is NOT the answer.

Liberal policies, like this Hillarycare II, make poor people dependent...for life...on the government, and while it sounds great, it isn't a great life for the always poor dependents and it sure isn't right for the rest of us that pay, and worst of all, it continues to spiral...more and more people dependent and fewer and fewer productive people...and the next thing you know, we are just like that rotten to the core USSR that went under a few years ago. Hmm...seems to me that they too were leftists.

Gee, that's pretty obvious to see, yet Americans keep voting for these liberal theives. Oh, that's right, poor America is taught by government schools to perpetuate this death spiral.

touj
like all libs you conveniently forget or overlook there are consequences to making poor decisions about your life. When you fail to take the steps that allow you to take care of yourself your have doomed yourself to the status of loser. Failure to gain a basic education, failure to help prepare for your future are typical excuses the losers use to help themselves to the public trough. Perhaps if you libs sent out a message about personal responsibilty there would less claiming a right to the unfaired taxes paid by the producers. There is a difference between those truly in need and those who didn't prepare to take care of themselves. Why do I have to put up some 40% of my income to support the govt and all their programs to underwrite programs I will never be eligible to collect from. My sin, I have been a producer all my life. But you libs have told the losers in life you will always save them and there is no consequence to be paid for there lack of responsibility and accountability.

wrong, wrong, wrong
Touj,

The liberals are trying to GIVE insurance to tens of millions (with the rest of us fitting the bill). Are you telling me that all of these people are disabled and sick?

Look, for the very severe cases, I am with you. We should be compassionate. Of course, I think PRIVATE charities could do a much better job of helping than the inefficient government.

Also, I want you to know that one of the reasons that so many older people are ill-equipped to handle their expenses is because of LIBERAL policies and liberal promises. IF we had taught these people how to take care of themselves instead of depending on the government, then we would be in the situation we are in now.

Of course, you are right, let's throw more money at the problem. Let's add tens of millions of more poor people...tell them that everything to them is free because they are poor...and then everything will magically fix itself.

Lastly, I teach POOR kids every single day. Some have terrific character. Some do not. I never said that being poor was "bad character."

Of course, being poor doesn't absolve someone of responsibility...which is what liberals do.

No, you feel so bad for them that you lower the bar of expectation...and guess what...they meet you there. Don't believe me? Go visit a public school in any big city.

Poor people will stay poor until they stop doing the things that make them poor...but will liberals teach them that?? No way!!


HillaryCare2
The only comment I can think of on this subject is a quote I read somewhere. "A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which he proposes to pay off with your money."

That may not be an exact quote but is's close.

Kastle
Two things that liberals excel at:

1. Raising taxes.

2. Spending on the lazy and stupid.

It seems that the left took the words, "pursuit of happiness" to mean "pursuit of more welfare and an easier life," that someone ELSE pays for.

The first words out of liberal larva is quite obviously, "other people's money."

ALL
Swing by my blog for part two of liberal hysteria throughout recent history as well as two on liberal's lack of understanding of the First Amendment.

Touj
I should be getting help from other tax payers!
LMAO What a classic line. How about the gov. lets me keep what I earn! And not have to 17%--30% tax on what my husband and I earn? (He has a regular nine to five job--and I do sewing from home and my income is taxed at 30%!)

I don't take from others because they earned it! It doesn't belong to me. What you consider "help" I consider stealing. I wouldn't steal from a fellow American--why would you advocate that I should? Becasue you have dubbed it "help"?

And as far as you statement "they used to be called fellow Americans" again I have to laugh. Never before in the history of this country have we had the juggernaut of welfare and proposed medical socialism we have today. It used to be up to your family and local church to help. Which MANY of us still do, in addition to our tax burden. I am more than happy to help the people I know and who I come in contact with through my volunteering. I prefer being able to take an ederly person from my church to the pharmacy and just writing a check for their co-pay. I would do this more than once a month for one person, but we have all that money going to taxes. I have a big problem 'helping' someone who may or may not need my help (can we say fraud anyone) and I certainly have a HUGE problem with the government placing values on who is worthy and who is not worthy to recieve care and prescriptions.

Just because Hillary said this is the "nice" face of the government doesn't make it so--it will become a huge juggernaut of red tape in which children and elderly will fall through the cracks, and your health care quality will be determined by the same kind of employee that you encounter at the DMV.

wildwest
Amen--How long do the liberals think it will take for us producers to stop producing when we are continually punished through higher and higher taxes for our productivity?

Setting up the straw men
Touj wrote:

"If this method of helping others were the law of the land, it would exclude: 1., anybody who doesn't attend church regularly, 2., anybody who is housebound and doesn't come in contact with people like you; 3.,anybody who is mentally ill and either drops out to the streets or remains exctremely reclusive; 4., anybody who isn't likeable or appealing to charity givers, 5., anyboyd who feels demeaned and degraded by well-meaning but selective charity-givers."

First of all, it was never the "law of the land," it was people fulfilling their individual responsiblity for private charity.

Secondly, all of your scenarios are assumed from pure ether. 1. Not all private charity comes from the church. Is there any reason why the non-religious cannot provide private charity? 2. Churches routinely minister to "shut-ins." Any interested party can make it their business to seek out the housebound, just as government does. 3. Same answer as #2 4. Absolute nonsense. We routinely help out people who are unpleasant and/or ungrateful. Recipients are found based on need, not charm. 5. Is this last class of people different from those who will refuse charity of any kind, regardless of the source? Or are you suggesting that there is a class of people who are embarassed to receive private charity but have no problem taking money extracted from their neighbors without their consent?

further
I'm getting a strong sense from this argument that if we had to rely on private giving then it would all come from the church. Are you really meaning to suggest that only the religious care enough to provide charity out of their own pockets? Aren't there non-religious based charities out there? If your argument is that the non-religious and misanthropic will get no help, you're showing concern for a segment of society that you suggest no one will have any concern for. The fact that you yourself are concerned suggests to me that there are likeminded others who could come together, pool their resources, and help these folks. Why would you rather take away the earnings of your neighbors than commit your own time and resources to this problem?

And I can't help but pondering...
A major factor in the story you related is the Great Depression, a terrific example of human misery created, extended, and exacerbated as a result of government policies. Is the irony here not apparent?

Touj
You are right, there is a very small percentage that truly need help. The problem is that there are so many able bodied out there that are faking their need that everybody groups them in with the truly needy. Get rid of the fakers and then maybe I'll agree to help support the ones that need it.
Because of a condition I have I have been told by 3 different Drs to go on total disability but I won't do it because my wife and I make it just fine. Could I use another 1000 to 1500 a month? He!! yes, I don't know too many that couldn't, but I also can look at myself in the mirror without a twinge of guilt.

Socialism Is a Pagan Religion
It doesn't work, never has and never will. It destroys economies, individual initiative and creativity, completion and the pursuit of excellence, individual liberties and freedom in general. It is incompatible with freedom and the founding principles of this country in the same way that Islam is incompatible with any other religion and freedom.

These issues aren't debatable they are facts, which are documented and which anyone can find, should they actually care about facts or truth. But socialists and closet communists otherwise known as "progressives" don't care about facts or truth they care about what they want and wish to impose upon others. When facts and truth don't succeed in winning the argument, they lie, usually several lies at once, and continuously. They do believe in monopolizing any debate or argument with extraneous, numerous, unsupportable lies. This is done because it is hard to recognize the truth when it is shrouded in a blanket of lies.

The first indication of a problem with the arguments of socialists, is that they have to lie at all.
That their arguments cannot stand upon their own merits.

None of this matters at all to a socialist. Like witch doctors, they shake their rattles, jump up and down and dance around and generally scare the h*ll out of the patient. The one thing that differentiates them from other witch doctors is that the "medicine" they give their patients is always damaging and in fact systemically, fatal. In fact it kill many more than the original patients. Socialism kills until the killing can no longer be denied or covered up. Then and only then can any other remedy be pursued. It's happened time after time.

And still they shake their rattles, beat their drums and deliberately scare the h*ll out of people.

Touj
So from your post I can gather--
1. My church giving and support of my family, is not enough--someone somewhere needs more help.
2. That because I am a responsible person who helps others freely with money and time, I am careful with my own health and life, then I should also be responsible for EVERYONE, and I should be happy about it.

I guess my next question would be--What gives you the right (and the government for that matter) to decide all these ethical questions? By what standard are we to be judged? At what point have I given enough--when am I caring enough? Will I be caring enough at a 40% tax, or a 50% tax? How about a 75% tax? Will I care enough when I am working to support a government system for everything--oh wait--we have just stepped over into communism. All people earning nothing--producing solely for the government's benefit, so in its benevolence it can redistribute all goods and monies.

Please don't come back with "that won't happen" Just look at the tax rates from after the depression (when most of these programs got their start) to today--The increase is enormous, most of it going to support a vast government infrastructure and less and less going to actual living, breathing people.

Sorry Touj communism in small increments is still communism.

At least when I give support EVERY single dollar goes to help an actual person--in the government program how many actual dollars will go to those in need? I haven't seen a number. My guess is not very much. What percentage of this enormous bill will be gobbled up to support the juggernaut of government workers needed to impliment this plan--75%--80%--90%? Leaving how much actual cash to pay for doctors and medicines?

Touj
I'm not angry, just irritated (with anger comes armed revolt--haven't gotten to that point yet)--I believe firmly in rendering unto Ceasar--I do pay my taxes--and yet still manage to conform to my religious belief, of service and help. What irritates me is that Ceasar is never satified, and soon I will no longer be able to conform to religeous beliefs because Ceasar has removed my ability to do so. And as a added bonus I get to listen to Ceasars minions screaming at me that I don't "care about people".

You made a comment about no money from conservatives going to drug addicts and single mothers--wrong--the rehab program that has the best success rate is the Salvation Army--a Christian organization. I volunteer with the Crisis Pregnancy Center a majority (if not all) of our funds come from Christian churches and individuals who attend some form of church regularly. We provide monitary support, formula, baby-clothes, free certified counseling services, job training, and parenting classes, all going to (gasp) single mothers. So the two examples you picked out don't hold water. A conservative wants to see real results from their money. A life turned around--not just a check handed out and the same drug addict back in rehab 3 years down the road.

But I think your reply to eastlake says it all "At worst one of my neighbors might have to give up one of their boats or cars." As long as it's not yours--right Touj.

Still waiting for the answers to my questions. Also, I am fully aware of the definition of Communism, so I don't see why it should be out-of-bounds in this sort of discussion--except maybe that it hits a little too close to home?

Touj
I worked for the post office for almost two years and we were constantly stamping damaged or misdirected mail. And as far as bridges, I guess you were out of the country a few weeks ago. Huh? A friend of mine Who is very much alive was last year listed with social security and both credit listings as deceaced. I myself while in the service at Ft. Knox in 68 recieved a draft notice. Please don't tell me the government doesn't screw things up.

Touj
I have an idea--how about you start to pay eastlake joe $500-$1500, whatever you can afford a month. Think of it as just cutting out the government middle man. Then you can also have the definate warm fuzzy knowledge that you have fullfilled you social contract with him.

touj

First of all, touj, I think you have been treated quite fairly. Nobody (that I know of) has attacked you personally. Nobody has been crude or abusive.

I promise you that if a liberal takes a stand on a liberal website, he usually fares far worse.

Now, let me try to express a thought to you that I don't think you understand. Most conservatives I know WANT to help other people. They want people to be successful.

For that reason, they REJECT liberal policies that enslave poor people to the government check. Honestly, there has been NOTHING worse in America than welfare. It has doomed generation after generation of black Americans.

Are there blacks who have escaped this cycle of poverty? Sure there have...but most of these people TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for their actions. They don't expect or want anything except a chance to succeed. (That is, they act like conservatives...even if they don't know it!)




continued
On another issue, you started to defend big government institions. Honestly, have you been to a post office lately? They are soooooo slow. To buy some stamps, they have to go through ten screens on their computer...taking like 90 seconds...the people move like they are in honey. Why? Well, they don't have to worry about profits. That's why they aren't really worried about your service. Oh sure, they may talk about improving service, but their jobs don't depend on it. Do you know how hard it is to fire a post office worker????

Let me give you another example. This summer, there was a Quick Trip convenience store that lost a pump to a car fire. It was a mess. Within TWO weeks, the pump, the signage, everything was repaired. At my public school, however, a broken ice machine in the gym takes about 8 months to fix.

Oh, I could go on and on, but let me just leave you with this fact. Over HALF of the money that is spent on teaching students in public schools is spent on administration costs. Wasted money...but it makes for a good jobs program.

Anyway, I wish you luck, and honestly, if you are that concerned about the poor, then help them make more money. Try to avoid STEALING from others to make yourself feel better. Giving them your neighbor's money is not helping...it's hurting.

one last thing, Touj

I just wanted to add that I am glad that Touj has defended his position. He has done so sincerely with the best of intentions.

Trust me, Touj, I read your words and I try to see things from your perspective.

I agree with you about helping people, but I think you REALLY help people when you help them help themselves.

Others may have taken a harsh tone with you, myself included, because we are passionate about our beliefs. We just feel like we are being robbed. Worse, we feel like our money isn't helping...we feel like the money is making things worse as more poor people learn to DEPEND on our money.

Touj
Still didn't answer the questions I've already asked and here's a few more. . .

How is taking my money, under threat of arrest, to give to someone else, not stealing?

Whose moral code will the government use to make ethical descision about health care?

How will they manage that philosophical treading on peoples right to practice religion?

What is the percentage limit on the taxes? At what point does the government promise to stop?

What is the cap on funds a person is able to use over a lifetime of government health care?

Will a person with AIDS recieve more than a person with MS because the AIDS lobby is stronger than the MS lobby?

What government system works as well as they say this will?

What will happen when we finally look like Sweden and have a 50% unemployment rate and a 50% tax?

And finally the eastlake joe comment wasn't a joke--you clearly have stated you think it sad that Americans have lost their sense of cohesion--well sounds like it would be a good social experiment--"I made a friend on the opposite side of the political spectrum and now I help him live" You could put it on the web and call it teaching a conservative kindness. It would be thought-provoking.

It is too bad you gave up before you answered any questions.

Gee, let me try!!
Beyond the Pale:

Apparently, we have lost our liberal friend for a while, but let me try to answer the question as and honest and sincere liberal.

1) When YOU take money from the poor, it is stealing. When I take money from the rich, it is called compassion for the poor. You see, poor people can not be held responsible for their actions because they are poor, stupid, and they can't really learn to handle their own money.

2) Honestly, some of us believe what we are doing is the right thing to do. Others of us simply do what will buy us more votes. We already have the Black vote locked up by giving welfare, free and reduced lunch, subsidized housing, etc. Now we want to give scholarships and citizenship to illegal aliens who have broken our laws. Why? Some want to help poor people...others want the new votes.


3) I honestly don't have an answer here. Most of us liberals don't like religion much because it teaches values like responsibility. Values such as these devalue the drug dealers and prostitutes among us. Evil conservatives such as you try to judge such people. Liberals believe that we should tolerate just about anything, even sex with a horse. Of course, we have our limits. We do not tolerate the free speech of conservatives or a conservative lifesyle.

2centsworth in the midwest
"government obligations equalling ever diminishing purchasing power of the dollar. The more deficits we run, the more the dollar's purchasing power is abased. ... we do not need to make this situation worse. "

******

There is one little problem with this observation. Every country in which our dollar
has dropped dramatically (and I am very much
aware of it because I buy from abroad on nearly
a monthly basis), has some form of what is called
socialized medicine.

I think maybe it is the war, 2centsworth. Let's
get rid of that and then perhaps our $ will be
worth what it was (roughly $1.20 to the euro)
when it started.

continued

4) Well, taxes are collected to provide revenue for the government and since lower taxes actually encourages economic growth, and thus, higher tax revenue, liberals are commited to lower taxes. WAIT A MINUTE!!! I forgot...I am using logic and truth...hmmm...we will raise the taxes on the rich who have exploited the poor. For that reason, we will tax the rich up to 110%. Oh, you can't have more than 100%?? The last ten percent will come from their own sweat and blood that we will bottle and sell.

Got to run...but Sweden is paradise...like France!!

Got to love those liberals!!

Religiouslib and Touj
You are a breath of fresh around here. Maybe
some others too. I haven't had time to read
all the postings, but I do recognize the two
of you from past posts.

And Anne, you keep showing up. I could make
comment about your oh so clever nicknames, but
conversation with you is the very last thing
I want.

Pointguard
Collecting taxes is not stealing, no matter how
much you don't like it.

Pointguard II
Sweden is paradise...like France!!

Ever been to either place?

I wanted to go to France, but...

The answer to your question is no. I wanted to go to France, but the burning cars last summer dimmed my enthusiasm. Besides, I didn't have the money. I had to pay for more liberal voters, you know, with ENTITLEMENT programs.


???

The green tights comment eludes me at the moment, but I find it very hard for you guys not to understand why people get frustrated about the "stealing."

By the way, liberal are always complaining about things not being fair. Well, answer this one for me. What is fair about a man building a business...the business does well and serves thousands of people a day...it also EMPLOYS hundreds of people a day...allowing those employees to pay for their families...allowing those employees to pay taxes themselves...and the reward for this person is MORE TAXES.

Even if the rate were a flat 20%, if this business man earns 1,000,000 dollars a year, he would pay $200,000. That is much more than me. I earn $50,000 a year so I would pay only $10,000 a year in taxes.

The rich guy provides a service to thousands, provides jobs to hundreds, and pays MUCH MORE in taxes at a flat rate...YET liberals want more!!!! They want the rich guy to be taxed at 40 or 50% or more.

I really don't make much compared to many, but I don't want the rich guy's money. He gives more than most of us.

Besides, taking more of his money will undercut his ability to build more businesses to help more people.

Pointguard
It was a fractured attempt at humor by using Robin Hood. Of course I could be wrong and he just likes green tights? I don't know!!!!

Beyond the Pale
Hey guy, thanks for thinking of me I guess I did say I could use the 1500 extra a month. Nah, I couldn't take it from Touj, I'd loose my conservative lable. I'd probably have to sneak up on the mirror then.

Ahh, yes, the liberal hero!!

In general, liberals don't believe in heroes...you know, if you elevate one man that means he isn't equal to everyone else, but in this case, they would make an exeption. They LOVE the Robin Hood story. (And many more...go get a high school literature book...it is filled with mostly liberal stories.)

Anyway, Robin Hood stole from the rich, but today's liberals want EVERYBODY's money!

Hello, communism calling??

RE: Collecting taxes is not stealing
viruddh wrote:

"Pointguard
Collecting taxes is not stealing, no matter how
much you don't like it. "

You're confusing the legitimate functions of government (hint: equal protection) with wealth transfer from one citizen to another. At the point where taxation is simply wealth transfer it is theft.

Imagine a tax rate of 100%. What would you categorize such a rate? Would you call that legitimate? Would you not call it theft? If not, what would you call it? If you don't consider a 100% rate legitimate, how about 99%, 98%, etc.? At what point does it become legitimate? At what point do you cease to call it whatever term you would prefer to use (in place of the suggested word "stealing")? What are your criteria for deciding where this point is? Are you choosing an arbitrary number? Are you choosing a condition? If the latter, how are you defining and measuring that condition? Do you draw any distinction between the public use of the people's money and the transfer of funds from one class of citizen to another?

Ahenobarbus
I have heard this 100% tax rate theory before.
Were you the one that wrote it and just pasted it
back on whenever you get the opportunity.

You ask - what is the criteria for deciding where
this point is? Ask a congressperson. They are
the ones who make the tax laws, see that it gets
collected, sees that it gets spent, etc. etc.
And presumably they are following the wishes of
their constituents back home.

I could tell you that in comparison to other
western countries, we are in no way overtaxed.
But making actual comparisons can be a very
lengthy process, because some countries such as
France have virtually no equivalent to a city or
state tax, while others do. Here in the US many
cities have no income tax and I believe a state or two collects no tax. We don't have VAT where
as most of Europe does. In our state we have
reduced sales tax on food. I don't think this
is true across the board.

There are organizations that actually do make these studies including Intl Living Abroad,
and if you want to know how much certain countries tax and what those taxes buy, and how
much spendable income you will have left over
(as in, some will have to buy their own insurance and others will not, etc), subscribe to their
newsletter. It is very informative - and non
political.

For your other point - stealing from the rich to
pay the poor (wealth distribution), not everything that comes out of your paycheck is a
tax, even though it is required. MY definition of a tax is that which is thrown into the kitty
and congress decides how it will be spent. The
rest of the stuff - social security, etc. - If you don't put in, you don't take out.

Lemonade
Lemonade wrote:

"Ahenobarbus
I have heard this 100% tax rate theory before.
Were you the one that wrote it and just pasted it
back on whenever you get the opportunity.

You ask - what is the criteria for deciding where
this point is? Ask a congressperson. ..."

Let me stop you right there. That is a complete intellectual and moral dodge. I was asking for a defense of virrudh's position - and an explanation of the thinking that underpins it. What is HIS criteria for judging where this point is? I assume that each of us is fully capable of offering an opinion here; this is not the special purview of our representatives in Congress, precisely because they are supposed to answer to their constituents. Follow your own logic and your suggested answer is ultimately to ask a constituent. We are all constituents here, so this odd attempt to make a vague reference to a collective other seems to me an attempt to send the issue into Never-Never Land where no one can be expected to provide an answer.

This is a moral and intellectual issue, and I was asking for an opinion. I am not asking what other nations do; I am asking for the reasoning behind it. Another country may be taxed more and/or have a VAT. That is a fact, not an argument. Bringing it up does nothing to say whether it is good, bad, foolish, or defensible.

As far as your definition of a tax, are you aware that "the rest" to which you're referring is "thrown into the kitty" along with the income tax? FICA and Medicare revenue is not kept off-budget. It is spent right along with general revenue. It is a straight transfer of wealth, and there is no guarantee either that you will ever receive anything back from these programs after decades of paying in to them.
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