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Saturday, January 13, 2007
Donald Lambro :: Townhall.com Columnist
The courage of his convictions
by Donald Lambro
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WASHINGTON -- If President Bush's decision to send 21,500 troops to Iraq tells us anything about him, it is this: He isn't someone who bases his policies on the polls or the results of the last election.

He is acting on his deepest conviction that, as he said in his address to the nation, we are engaged in "the decisive ideological struggle of our time" against Islamic extremists who have declared war against the West and the United States, in particular.

Abraham Lincoln, beset by a series of defeats and setbacks in the Civil War, told the nation "we must think anew so that we may act anew." Bush, facing a long guerrilla war that his new secretary of defense said we are losing, essentially told Americans that failure was not an option and that we must readjust our military strategy so that "We can and we will prevail."

It was a gutsy, sober decision that he knows will hardly make him more popular with the American people. Polls show that nearly two-thirds of all Americans oppose the war and think it was a mistake. His party lost the House and Senate in an election that turned into a referendum on the war. But Bush has long ago made peace with fact that he is not going to win any popularity contests for the remainder of his presidency as long as the war continues and casualties mount.

Sending more troops to secure the Iraqi capital against a stronger and far more lethal insurgency is clearly in the long-term security interests of our country, and he is willing to leave office two years from now with low-approval polls but secure in the knowledge that he fought the terrorists as hard as he could and kept America safer than it was before he came into office. Only now Bush faces two wars, one in Iraq and the other on Capitol Hill, where Democrats were gearing up to challenge him on two fronts: 1) A nonbinding resolution that declares Congress' disapproval of increased combat forces and calls for troop withdrawal by this year. 2) Withholding funding for any additional forces being sent there or other provisions that would further restrict appropriations for the war.

But House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid should be careful about overplaying their hand on both scores. Thus far, as most polls show, a majority of Americans oppose an immediate or precipitous pullout of all forces in Iraq that would result in a bloodbath for the Iraqi people. Indeed, a number of Democrats would not support a speedy withdrawal if it would endanger our remaining forces there.

A congressional funding cutoff, which would have to clear a 60-vote hurdle in the Senate and then overcome a presidential veto, would be a political disaster for the Pelosi Democrats. It would threaten needed funds for our troops in the midst of war. How many Democrats would want to vote for that? Bush explained the stakes in Iraq last week without sugarcoating what the future holds, even if his plan succeeds in pacifying Baghdad and the terrorist-infested Anbar province.

"Even if our new strategy works exactly as planned, deadly acts of violence will continue -- and we must expect more Iraqi and American casualties," he said. The question, he added, "is whether our new strategy will bring us closer to success. I believe it will."

I think we will see a change for the better on the streets of Baghdad with increased troop levels. But if there is one change I would make in the new strategy, it would be a much sharper increase in the number of U.S. forces to train more Iraqi fighters. The bipartisan Iraq Study Group proposed a massive increase in the number of U.S. military trainers by 10,000 to 20,000 to quickly escalate the size and skill of the Iraqi army. Bush's plan would just expand the number of advisers embedded in existing Iraqi forces.

The key to longer-term success and to an eventual drawdown of U.S. forces is a larger, better-trained Iraqi security force that can bear the brunt of the fighting and kill more of the enemy. That side of the military equation must be ramped up beyond anything that is now being contemplated.

Meantime, Bush is fully committed to his new strategy. He has received new promises from Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki to commit additional brigades to the war and to get a lot tougher combating sectarian violence. He is bringing new generals into Iraq and the region, and a new ambassador into Baghdad, to carry out the plan.

He is embarked on this course because all of the other options, such as a phased withdrawal this year, were nonstarters in his mind -- signaling to the terrorists that they had won, that we would back down in the face of their threats and that would make us and the free world more vulnerable to their attacks.

It was perhaps the toughest and loneliest decision of his presidency but one that was made solely to keep our country safe.

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About The Author

Donald Lambro is chief political correspondent for The Washington Times.

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riiiight
Right on - Bush the brave, the noble, the far-seeing, the independet thinker.

Unfortunately, this picture is worse than a mirage. Only a half-brained idiot or an idealogue (or both) could believe it. For the rest of us who live in the reality-based community, Bush seems intent on intensifying the destructive consequences of what one former general has called "the greatest strategic disaster in our nation's history."

The man is betting other people's lives and the future of this country on his "legacy." He has nothing to lose by doubling-up his bet yet again. Surrounded by a chorus traitorous Neoconservative (read ex-leftist) advisors and egged on by his adoring enablers in the media (see above), seemingly nothing can stop this machine of destruction from pulling our beloved country ever further into the Iraq quagmire and likely into the next disaster in Iran and beyond.

What the United States needs is about 50,000 Cindy Sheehans to descend upon and occupy Washington until this administration relents and brings the troops home. But instead, what we have are disgusting enablers such as Mr. Lambro and the sundry nutbag chorus who are the majority of this web-site's readership.

People, our country is in big trouble, and it is *your* fault. But go ahead, deny, evade, deny. At least it's other people who are paying the price, right?

Polls are the people
What worries me is that if the president is not paying any attention to the polls, he is not listening to the people, and making PERSONAL decisions.

He sure isn't listening when it comes to the illegal immigration disaster. Most Americans don't want amnesty. Most Americans want the border secured. Most Americans want something done about the millions of illegals here who will eventually, with their incoming family members, make the republican party a thing of the past. It will be voted out of existence.

Crunch time now.
The shameless shilling by Lambro toward Bush has become embarrassing. Just incredible.

Still, as one who now opposes the invasion, I say let the troop surge happen. Let us see if it succeeds. We already are there, committed...we have come this far...made such a huge investment and sacrifice, that we ought to give it one last chance.

Please don't misunderstand. In my humble opinion, the only way it will succeed is if Maliki wants it to. It is not up to Bush. It is not even up to our troops. It is up to Maliki.

Bush's entire presidency and legacy now rests upon a shia muslim.

For it is he, as head of the government, that must permit our forces, and his army, to target shia militias, something he previously refused to do.

Personally, I don't think Maliki is interested a democratic government where the rights of sunnis and kurds are respected.

But he was elected. And he is Bush's man in Iraq.

Let us see if he delivers..for once.


When you lose big, lie bigger
"If President Bush's decision to send 21,500 troops to Iraq tells us anything about him, it is this: He isn't someone who bases his policies on the polls or the results of the last election."

That's a very generous intepretation of president Bush's latest policy to send more troops to Iraq. I think a more accurate interpretation, though, is that Bush doesn't base his decisions on reason, reality, or national intererst.

It is apparent that whatever "plan" we had -- if we had any -- to deal with Iraq after we overthrew Saddam was a failure because it failed to take into account Iraq's sectarian divisions. Sending more troops to Iraq may temporarily help keep the violence down, but how will it heal the rift between Iraq's warring factions? If it doesn't, then this is just a very short term solution, to an irresolvable long term problem. And what is Bush's solution to squelching the violence? Got me, it seems he doesn't have one, or is keeping it under wraps for now.

"He is acting on his deepest conviction that, as he said in his address to the nation, we are engaged in 'the decisive ideological struggle of our time' against Islamic extremists who have declared war against the West and the United States, in particular."

If Mr Bush really believes this he is out to lunch. There is no ideological war waging in Iraq between the West and Islam. The problem in Iraq is that Iraq is largely at war with itself -- the violence between the Sunni and Shia and now the intra conflict among the Shia. This is tribal, not ideological. Muktada al Sadr's Madhi Army had no designs to attack the United States and only wants us to leave Iraq. If there is a larger (ideological) conflict it is between those who believe in national sovereignty and globalists, like president Bush and the Neocon henchmen, who think national borders are a thing of the past. I guess it should be no surprise that those the Neocons are also adamant supporters of open immigration as well. They don't think Iraq is entitled to its sovereignty; ditto for us.

Now, president Bush's latest folly might accomplish killing more Americans or maybe it might start a new regional war with Iran, but regardless of what happens, Americans are going to be the losers.

Bush - I hope he is listening to God
I know he is not popular, but he was alot better than Kerry or more Clinton.

I do agree with CC above about the illegal immigration disaster, but as far as this war, I would hate to see what other attacks would have succeeded against this nation without it and Afghanistan before it.

If he actually is still praying, and seeking God's help, and if all the believers out there are still praying for his guidance, then it will be alright in the long run, no matter what the left wing contingency says.

I worry what the new Democratic congress and Senate, as well as a possible future Democratic President, would do to us.

Come in, end times, if we vote that way.

Not Lincoln but Custer
Courage of your convictions means nothing if those convictions are flat wrong. This President's "new" policy isn't new and has been tried repeatedly. It might have worked with 200,000 new troops but we don't have them. What we do have is a tired and worn Army and Marine Corp which is streched to the breaking point.

Following the President's speech it is clear to me that we can support the commander in chief OR the troops. We cannot support both

Failure Is Not An Option
The Iraqi people deserve a chance. They know Americans are out of patience thanks to the MSM constant criticism. Look what Kennedy and Kerry did to decrease support in Vietnam. Thank God we have a president who does not quit and troops that function bravely. Out government took years to develop and we expect a fully functional government in Iraq?

Pat
It's nice that you admire Bush's tenacity. However, the bottom line is that this administration has blundered and continues to blunder when it comes to the objective, which is a stable and relatively peaceful Iraq.

The idea of Iraqi unity is a fraud. These people were forced to accept the borders that we call Iraq by foreigners. Any casual examination of the Iraqi elections shows that there was no cross-over voting on a regional, cultural or religious basis. What would Americans think if Bush would have received 1% of the vote in California and Kerry 1% of the vote in Texas?
Please don't attempt to equate our government, which was developed by its citizens and still devolved into a bloody civil war, with that of Iraq, which has been formed under the auspices of a foreign country, and is under military occupation of foreigners.

utahnotmorman

In answer to your question, I'm one American who
thinks it would have shown how DUMB California
is and how SMART Texas is.

Smart Texan
I stand with President Bush in his decision not to cut and run. Doing so in the past has not proven very helpful in this war that we did not choose on terror. I know people who think it is a black mark on the very soul of America that we ever became involved in WWII. They are people for whom nothing is worth fighting for. I am a veteran, though of no war, but I know our fighting veterans gladly and willingly serve everyone, including those who disagree with their mission, even their service.

May the freedom each human being is endowed with hold strong and may we all live in peace.

Bush is certainly no Lincoln
when it comes to communication or wit. And the jury is still out on whether he can focus this nation and the Iraqii people on the importance of democracy in Iraq. Nevertheless, Lambro is right; Bush is driven by a vision for the world that equals that of Lincoln.

His vision of democracy in the Iraq runs much deeper than the latest poll numbers. It is called conviction; a quality sorely missing in his political opponents. Dems have proven that their hatred of Bush is the only excuse they need to abandon the best interests of a nation at war. It is an absolute disgrace that they offer no constructive alternatives other than surrender.

It can be argued whether Bush's plan or vision will be successful. What cannot be questioned is his character. This is perhaps the single most aggravation for an opposing party with none.

IN THE SPRING
of 1967, during Operation Junction City, my unit was on the Cambodian border north of Tay Nihn. I asked my OIC why we didn't pursue the VC/NVA into Cambodia. He said the US couldn't operate in Cambodia without the president's (Johnson's) approval. I told him I thought this op was a waste of time. I was told to shut up.

In 1970, in the spring, I was on my second tour of duty. This time we did go into Cambodia (but only a short way). Then we left Cambodia without hitting the VC/NVA a knockout punch.

I see the current "surge" as a replay of Vietnam. Three years too late and not enough
"punch" behind the op.

The media harps on "not enough troops". It's not the size of the military force, it's the application. How many battles have the coalition forces lost? None.

It's not that we are outnumbered by the enemy, either. The media loves to remind us how many muslims there are in the world, but not all of them carry weapons. We are in no danger of being over run by any force (except maybe the Socialist-Democrats in congress).

The Democrats have politicized this war to the point that 2/3 of Americans believe the war is "lost". Wrong. Like Vietnam, the only thing "lost" is the will to win.


acceptreality
>His vision of democracy in the Iraq runs much deeper than the latest poll numbers.<

Bush has no vision of democracy in Iraq as I have attenpted to explain numerous times in this forum.

If he did, he would be commending the Kurds for their determination that established an autonomous Kurdistan region 15 years ago.

Do you know how many times Bush mentioned Kurdistan in his address the other night?

Answer - Zero.

I can only think you must be joking.

Courage of his convictions?
Is he really displaying the courage of his convictions? Or is he displaying a deep and disturbing psycho pathology?

Maureen Dowd had this to say:

W. always acts like he’s upping the ante in a board game where you roll the dice and bet your plastic army divisions on the outcome. This doesn’t surprise some of his old classmates at Yale, who remember Junior as the riskiest Risk player of them all, known for dropping by the rooms of friends, especially when they were trying to study for exams, for extended bouts of “The Game of Global Domination.”

Junior was known as an extremely aggressive player in the venerable Parker Brothers board game, a brutal contest that requires bluster and bluffing as you invade countries, all the while betraying alliances. Notably, it’s almost impossible to win Risk and conquer the world if you start the game in the Middle East, because you’re surrounded by enemies.

His gamesmanship extended to sports — he loved going into overtime and demanding that points be played over because he wasn’t quite ready.

As Graydon Carter recollects in the new Vanity Fair, Gail Sheehy wrote an article for the magazine about W. that made this point: “Even if he loses, his friends say, he doesn’t lose. He’ll just change the score, or change the rules, or make his opponent play until he can beat him.”

W.’s best friend when he was a teenager in Houston, Doug Hannah, told Ms. Sheehy: “If you were playing basketball and you were playing to 11 and he was down, you went to 15.”

Even if it was clear who was winning, W. wanted to go further to see what would happen. It was a technique that worked well in Tallahassee in 2000, but not so well in Tikrit."

George Bush might've made a really good football coach, but he makes a lousy president.


Phylo out.

Regime change in Iraq
What has changed? Back then, his words were cheered by the Dems--ALL the Dems:

"The president asks the nation to consider this question: What if Saddam Hussein 'fails to comply, and we fail to act, or we take some ambiguous third route which gives him yet more opportunities to develop his program of weapons of mass destruction and continue to press for the release of the sanctions and continue to ignore the solemn commitments that he made? Well, he will conclude that the international community has lost its will. He will then conclude that he can go right on and do more to rebuild an arsenal of devastating destruction.'

"The president's warnings are firm. 'If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow.' The stakes, he says, could not be higher. 'Some day, some way, I guarantee you, he'll use the arsenal.'

These are the words not of President George W. Bush in September 2002 but of President Bill Clinton on February 18, 1998. Clinton was speaking at the Pentagon, after the Joint Chiefs and other top national security advisers had briefed him on U.S. military readiness. The televised speech followed a month-long build-up of U.S. troops and equipment in the Persian Gulf. And it won applause from leading Democrats on CapitolHill." (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/607rkunu.asp)

Yes, it was Bill Clinton asserting, IN 1998, that our policy henceforth would be regime change in Iraq. What in the world did he mean? Why did he not follow through? And what has changed? Well, of course, things got worse.

Because Bill Clinton so loathed the military (which he and his minions displayed every day in every way), he was unwilling to use them; perhaps that was his version of "the courage of his convictions." As Saddam continued to violate the cease-fire negotiated at the end of the Gulf War, as he thumbed his nose at the U.S. and the U.N., as he abused the oil-for-food program and corrupted the highly corruptible U.N. officials, Clinton tsk-tsked and fretted, complained a little, bombed a little--and Osama began planning yet another attack on U.S. soil, this time a second attack on the World Trade Center, secure in the knowledge that the U.S. now speaks loudly but is careful not to carry any stick at all.

A few short years ago, all agreed that Saddam had and/or was developing WMDs and would use them sooner or later. Whether or not Saddam planned 9/11, he was the symbol of U.S. weakness and our unwillingness to follow up words with action. But the new president, George Bush, respects and admires the military and the soldiers; he is NOT unwilling to deploy them in order to protect the U.S.

If Clinton HAD acted, what would he have done differently? Bombed from 15,000 feet to assure that we would suffer no casualties? Or continued to stomp his feet, this time really HARD, to show how mad he was? And if al Qaida had any reason at all to believe we might defend ourselves, would they still have murdered 3,000 people on 9/11?

The main difference between now and February 18, 1998, is that the president is a Republican and he's hated by all of the Left. And regime change has occurred in Iraq.

Geez, Phylo
Be sure to quote that noted military expert, Maureen Dowd, in order to prove your point! Good gracious! Now I'm convinced.

Ahem... Polly,
Clinton hasn't been president for over 6 years. Deal with that fact.

Polly:
"A few short years ago, all agreed that Saddam had and/or was developing WMDs and would use them sooner or later."

No. Not "all agreed." There were large numbers of reasonable thinking Americans who thought it might be prudent to let Kay finish his inspections job in Iraq, before the scare-dy cats flipped their war lid. The scare-dy cats were dead wrong of course.

Polly:
"Whether or not Saddam planned 9/11..."

He wasn't. Get used to that fact as well.

Polly:
"And if al Qaida had any reason at all to believe we might defend ourselves, would they still have murdered 3,000 people on 9/11?"

Well yeah, of course, Al Qaeda, hates us. The irony in this situation is that Saddam hated Al Qaeda, but we stupidly went after Saddam instead of Bin Laden. What's wrong with that picture?

Put down the kool-aide.

umm, yeah...
Polly:
"Whether or not Saddam planned 9/11..."

He *didn't*. Get used to that fact as well.

DavidMac....
A true American hero with the right philosophy of both conflicts. If we're going to do something, let's get it done right with the right amount of operational fortitude to make it happen in our favor. Let's stop this senseless, gutless, frivolous bickering and get it over with. Lets go over there with 100,000 more troops. All of our forces if needed and get the job done. Make a glass sand box of that place and let's get our boys/girls home. But until we get the intestinal fortitude to stick it out and place the emphasis where it needs to be placed, we will not win anything at all and will be embarrassed.......again.

a question for Wolfy
I am just wondering, are you saying that Saddam was not a threat to US interests? No links to terrorism at all for Saddam? Do you think if Clinton (and yes presidents before him--Republican and Democrat) had acted with force and conviction when terrorists hit at America, things might not have escalated to 9/11? Or are you convinced that the law enforcement approach actually works? Are you saying it is perfectly permissable for a dictator to torture and kill the people of his nation with impunity? I am just curious as to what you think. What is your suggestion for combatting terrorism?

Also, let us remember why bin Laden was able to plot 9/11, and was not in US custody. We can probably agree that the US should have gotten serious about terrorism a long time ago (US embassy/Iran should have been a wake up call), but we didn't. The question is, what do we do about it now?



A different perspective
First, I think that the author of the article interprets Bush's speech in a way which fails to note the ways in which the course has changed. Bush's plan is not a "stay the course" plan but a preparation to withdraw. Bush's tone said quite simply that things were over, but imploring Americans to fight one last battle. This war is lost in terms of any prior schemes involving US basing rights in Iraq to be used to threaten Iran and Syria are concerned. It has been lost by the American People, by the Iraqi Government, and most of all by our President who has been unwilling to face the Iraqi government and do what is necessary for the Iraqi people (i.e. not listen to Maliki and attack the Badr Brigades and the Madhi Army instead of taking sides of one of the armed groups in the civil war-- we should have been on the side of the Iraqi people and not the Shiite militias).

This war has lasted longer than either World Wars. It has lasted longer than Korea. Time has run out and it is now too late to correct the mistakes of the past.

However, all this being said, I support the President's last call for battle. We all know from looking at the past that we won't be allowed to go after the Iranians or the Shiite militias. We all know that Bush's plan won't be followed through by the Iraqi government. But I would raise the point that withdrawal is imminant anyway and:

1) It is best to give the Iraqi government one last chance so that it is clear to everyone (including others in the region) that we were defeated by their unwillingness to do the right thing rather than by the insurgents.

2) If the legal reforms get passed that Bush has mentioned, it will be worth the surge. These legal reforms would allow many Sunnis who were excluded from the political dialog and the government to join in the political process and would thus create a framework for a negotiated end to this civil war. This represents a *huge* turnabout for Bush and also shows that he knows the time to fight is nearing an end.

We took upon ourselves certain responsibilities by going to war. I for one said it was a mistake then and I say it was a mistake now. But I do not support running from those obligations that we have, however foolishly, taken upon ourselves. There are aspects to Bush's "new" old direction that are troubling and I hope Congress has a responsible dialog about how to send a message to the Bush Administration that threatening countries we can't do much to is counter productive at best. But if 20000 troops is what it takes to encourage the Iraqi government to make these legal reforms it will have been worth it.

Dottie
Are you saying we should invade the Republic of Ireland? After all, there are some concerns that there might be some aid that has been going to the PIRA and that the weapons that the PIRA has designed have been passed along to the FARC, and then to Hizbullah, and so forth.

The Republic of Ireland (and, heck, the City of Boston) have larger links to international terrorism than Saddam's Iraq.

President Bush and the Polls
We, the people, have been bombarded for over 6 years with nothing but how bad President Bush is, how bad the war in Iraq is going, President Bush supposedly lying about WMD,how everything the President did or touched turned out wrong and we wonder why his poll numbers are down! In the past 6 years, have you heard from any of the MSM anything that he has done right. If this were a democrat in the White House it would be a completely different story and we all know it. I am 76 years old and I doubt that I will live long enough, but mark my words, this country will live to regret that we were not more supportive of this presidents goals and were less gullible when it came to beliving the MSM. Why some of these reporters have not been charged with treason is beyond me!

wolfy
Yep, but al Qaida still hates us. And have you noticed that they've stopped hitting our embassies? Those embassies are considered "our soil." Nor have they hit us inside the U.S. Nor even our ships in port. They thought for a minute there that they had again awakened the sleeping giant; luckily, it was just a short-term eyelid flutter and the giant is sleeping again. But why risk it again? (It's called "deterrence.")

I actually don't think anyone has ever claimed that Saddam "planned" 9/11. He supported terrorists, for sure. Evidence suggests that he was able to set aside his "hatred" for al Qaida and forged some bonds with those bad boys. But I don't even care about any of that. He violated the cease-fire over and over and over, and suffered not for it. He shot at our planes protecting the no-fly zone, no punishment. And he corrupted the U.N. and others with the oil-for-food gambit, while loudly lamenting the fact that the sanctions were injuring the children of Iraq. And, of course, he murdered hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. Clinton announced regime change. The various U.N. resolutions gave any member permission to act if Saddam violated the conditions of the cease fire. He's gone. I'm glad.

I guess you don't acknowledge that anything Clinton did or didn't do while he was Commander-in-Chief affected anything that happened after he left office. Guess that 6 years after Bush is out of office you'll again say "Bush is not president. Nothing's his fault. Deal with it."

(Of course, if we're successful in Iraq, you won't want Bush to have any part of the credit--perhaps you can credit it to the new Democratic Congress and all their fresh, constructive ideas.)

Polly
I have been consistant in my opposition to America-lead regime change by people in either party with a very few exceptions. I don't care whether it is Saddam, Allende, Arbenz, Mossadeq, etc. Afghanistan was justified because the lawlessness and civil war has offered and continues to offer ideal training grounds for international terrorists. But I cannot think of another one that I have supported.

Heck, I was even deeply ambivolent over Kosovo.

And you are right-- Bush isn't that different from Clinton on these matters.

But the fact is, we did topple Saddam, and so we have responsibilities to Iraq which we need to fill. This has been badly botched since the beginning and we cannot hope to have any real victory now. But if 20000 more troops is what it takes (even if they have a higher casualty rate as is expected) to get the Iraqi government to implement reforms that will allow a political solution to the civil war, then we have no moral choice but to do it.

Polly
8 years passed between the last two al-Qa'eda attacks on our contiguous territory. Even once you include the Cole and the Embassy Bombings, the casualties are still around 3000.

If one buys the idea that we have to fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here, then I would point out that they are killing us twice as fast over there, and we are spending much more to let them do it too.

We need to recognize that we have to be smart and more politically savvy than the terrorists. Iraq was a huge set back by every reasonable benchmark. And while we never should have gone in, I think we need to do something to try to minimize the damage to our position later.

The enemies of the terrorists are the rule of law and of governments. We should be focusing on lawless areas (like Afghanistan, parts of Pakistan, parts of Yemen, parts of Mexico, and all of Columbia). We should be trying to bring ends to civil wars that afford terrorists ample opportunities to hone their skills, and fighting organized crime, from drug and human trafficking to funding of terror.

Once these things are dealt with then we can start talking about what regimes need to be changed. Otherwise we are just adding fuel to a deadly fire.

One last chance?
>It is best to give the Iraqi government one last chance so that it is clear to everyone (including others in the region) that we were defeated by their unwillingness to do the right thing rather than by the insurgents.<

Why is it that there is this fantasy that there is an Iraqi government? There are Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds that meet in Baghdad with completely divergent agendas, very little of which has anything to do with Iraq as a unified nation.

It is best to recognize this reality and work from that basis rather than hope for a miracle, that Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds will suddenly want to sing kumbaya and a sense of Iraqi natioanlism will descend from the heavens. Currently, thousands of Shiites are fleeing Sunni-dominated areas and the same for Sunnis in Shiite areas. Kurds are being ethnically cleansed from Mosul, while Kirkuk remains one of the most potentially volatile, yet least mentioned cities in Iraq. Kurds fear that their interests in having resolution 140, the de-Arabization of Kirkuk, has been abandoned by the Shiite majority with US approval.

And those who suggest the murder of millions of innocent people by making a glass sand box out of the place should know that genocide is not a value consistent with American patriotism or heroism.


Scribe
If you listen closely to the President's last speech, he is planning a withdrawal. Make no mistake about it. All of the bluster is aimed at making it easier on Iraq when we withdraw in the near future.

I even question with Bush will go back for more funding to continue operations or whether he will use the funds he has and then ask for funding for a withdrawal.

This is a new direction but it isn't the new direction that many people think. I think this is about his idea of a responsible redeployment. Why else would he insist on the de-Baathification laws be repealed if not to try to allow a political resolution to the civil war? This is not about military victory. This is about letting the Iraqis negotiate a peace.

Convictions
Is is about convictions or is it about ego, profits, and abuse of power?
Sharon Dupree

Right vs Popular
The war in Iraq is unquestionably unpopular, but often the difficult and proper thing to do is so. It's like disciplining your children, they may chafe and complain about having to do things they don't want to, but as a parent you know that it's in their best long term interest. When the President announced the GWOT he warned us that it would be a decades long struggle, not an episode of CSI where the bad guys commit some crime, get hunted, caught & convicted in an hour.
utahmoron, you say "please don't attempt to equate our government, which was developed by its citizens and still devolved into a bloody civil war, with that of Iraq, which has been formed under the auspices of a foreign country, and is under military occupation of foreigners"
do you really not know what "four score and seven years ago" means?
Phylo, remove your head from its oxygen deprived confines, Maureen Dowd wouldn't know objectivity if it wore a f**king name tag.
The nature of war is that the enemy does everything within his/her power to defeat us. It's not a video game. Real people are killed and wounded, which is tragic but remember that freedom is never free.

Utahnotmormon
BTW, I used to live in Richfield as a Quaker (before I became a Norse Pagan). Utah is an interesting place....

As for the Iraqi government, there is a legislative assembly, an executive branch with a President, Prime Minister, and Cabinet. But there isn't really a functioning judiciary yet. I am not saying that it is a good thing that you have this government because the coalition is such that we can't attack many of the groups that are fomenting the sectarian violence. Just that it exists.

One of the very interesting points about Bush's last speech is that he seems to have given up on the current structure of the Iraqi government as being able to work. The idea that they need to adopt a fair way to amment the Constitution is another area where it looks like he is trying to bring those same people he is calling "terrorists" into the government or at least providing a means for this to happen after we get out.

Bush's new strategy is to make last minute preparations for an American withdrawal. This is abundantly clear from is last speech.

Postponing the inevitable
Why does Bush stay in? Why defy the will of the American people? The moment he pulls out, the number of Americans who think he's a failure will go from 65% to 95%, leapfrogging him over Nixon, Hoover, Carter, Wilson, Buchannan, and Grant in the worst President ever competition. If he crawls out of office with the US still in Iraq, the Republican noise machine will blame President Obama for the mess.

Moonbat
How long did the Constitutional process take in this country? It took some time to get it right. In fact we threw out our first attempt and started over. We did unfortunately rush that process in both Iraq and Afghanistan and the result both places are governments with serious structural problems. In fact I don;t think the Afghan government will ever be able to survive without us unless the constitution is substantially rewritten. It is, after all, the most centralized government in the world.

We ought not to be fanboys of military action as that is what largely got us into this mess.

But now that we are involved, we have responsibilities to those affected by the conflict. Shirking those responsibilities would be a mistake. And while I have serious questions about Bush's ability to deliver, I think that his plan is thus far the best and if he can't withdraw according to his own plan responsibly, we have no hope for any others.

History lesson
Why did we invade North Africa in 1942(Operation Torch)? Morocco never attacked us (nor did Germany for that matter)and was a French (allied?) colony. Answer: that's where the enemy was and North Africa proved to be a vital "jumping off" point in the larger Global war--on to Sicily, Italy, France and then the defeat of Nazi Germany.
Our invasion and occupation of Iraq seems to be a very similar circumstance. We have put thousands of well-armed and trained and dedicated soldiers right in the heartland of islamo-nazism knowing that it is better to go on the offensive and bring the fight to them than to go on the defensive (the lib/dem agenda) and let them bring the fight to us. How many attacks have we had here since 9/11? Unfortunately, given the harsh political realities of the country today I'm afraid it will take something much bigger and more devastating than the 9/11 attack to wake this country to the fact that we are in a war for our survival---and it's going to last a very long time. In the 1940's we had the moral and political courage to do what had to be done--not today I'm afraid. Fortunately, The Greatest Generation will no longer be around to see their courage and sacrifice squandered by their heirs.

Rickster
Are you proposing drafting a couple million Americans so we can invade the entire Middle East? Just wondering.

Liberalgoodman
Why would Bush place so much emphasis on creating a mechanism for the Sunni insurgents to get involved in the government if he didn't intend to get out soon?

I feel like a loan voice in the wilderness, but I don't think Bush is doing anything other than a covered retreat.

The Movie
Go to the site obsessionthemovie.com.

einhverfr
I agree that the terrorists are very, very patient. But I believe the biggest reason they have not carried out an even bigger, uglier attack on U.S. soil is that they saw how 9/11 brought Americans together (except for a few demented Leftist professors, of course), so that in virtually one voice we demanded retaliation, maybe even vengeance. Another 9/11 might actually unite us, once again, and perhaps (if we're lucky enough to have a Dem in office) for a more sustained period.

Watching old footage of WWII the other night, I saw what "the good guys" had to do to win the war. It was nothing short of horrific. And I saw no one punished for putting panties on any POW's head. But we don't now speak German.

WWII was slightly before my time (thankfully), but I WILL always remember how I felt on 9/11.

But we have grown so soft. We won't let our soldiers do their best. We're filled with fear of offending someone. Our politicians bicker bicker bicker, demanding a lack of resolve. It's no way to win a war, even a war on terror. But we can't go on declining to respond to attacks on our soil and on our military. Like Hitler, those people aren't kidding. Unlike Hitler, they want us all dead, and they're willing--no, eager--to die to effect that result.

Moonbat Exterminator
Rather than respond to you with a corresponding insult, let me just ask why you think you're statement actually had any meaning? Are you really making some kind of attempt at debate with

>do you really not know what "four score and seven years ago" means?<

because it's quite irrelevant, except that it took longer for the conflict to take place because of issues that were never properly settled or addressed by the founding fathers.

einhverfr -
You're correct in that Iraq has a President. Only Kurds voted for the list headed by Talbani. There is a Prime Minister. No Kurd or Sunni voted for the DAWA list that included Al-Maliki. The cabinet has ministries that are divvied up among the three entities, with little to no mutual cooperation. The Shiites control the Ministry of the Interior charged with managing the police, but mostly what they've managed is putting together semi-legitimate death squads to terrorize Sunnis. For example, there's this from Human Right's Watch:

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/10/29/iraq14473.htm

>The Ministry of Interior is responsible for the country’s security forces, some of which have close ties to the two principal Shi`a militias – the Mahdi Army and the Badr Forces. These security forces are believed to be responsible for numerous sectarian killings, operating in some cases as death squads in Baghdad and other provinces. It is not clear to what extent the ministry controls these security forces or whether they are under the effective control of the militias.<

Currently, this doesn't affect the Kurdish provinces of Dohak, Erbil and Sulimaniya, because they have their own separate security forces, and the "National" Ministry of Interior isn't even allowed to enter these provinces.
Consequently, these provinces are realtively peaceful. This should be the model for all of the Iraqi provinces, localized police representing the local ethnicity.

Instead, Bush has proposed abandoning the Kurdish autonomy, as has the ISG report in favor of national unity,
which, I reiterate, is a fraudulent term.





rickster
I agree with your analogy. Those who complain that we did not go where the terrorists were might want to take a look at what we're fighting in Iraq. Hint: they're terrorists.

Bin Laden hides out, not one to sacrifice his life for the cause or even for the 72 virgins, but the rest go where WE are.

And einhverfr, that's why we don't have to invade the entire Middle East: we're terrorist magnets.

einhverfr
No, I'm responding to those who have questioned the strategy of going into Iraq in the first place. There was no anti-war/anti-draft movement during WWII--today's social/political culture would find some disingenous rason to refuse to serve their country, regardless of the consequence. We are not the US of 60 years ago.

einhverfr
Regarding your question about invading the entire Middle East: If we succeed in Iraq we probably won't need to; if we fail in Iraq we may have to---one country at a time for decades to come.

Isn't it funny that when the country is
so divided, it is always the other side that points a finger at you and says it is YOUR fault the country is divided. No matter which side you are on.

Rickster
Glad someone else picked up on it. I have been arguing by using the N.African campaign to liberals for a long time.

Bush can see the bigger picture
Course change, redeploying the troops, and admitting to mistakes is not the bigger picture here. Nor is getting President Bush to say he was wrong and that there were no WMD's. These are nothing but unpatriotic distractions to continue turning Americans against the war, our troops, and President Bush. If there's one thing Americans are completely ignorant of, is the amount of propaganda the Democrats and the media has poured on them on a 24/7 bases. The Democrats acts as if there is no terrorist threats at all. Instead their state of denial won't allow them to side with the American people against terrorism. They are still using the same language, same tone, same unpatriotic attitude toward this country, and their voters can't tell the difference because of the hatred the Democrats have programmed them to exercise toward President Bush. The only mistake of programming so many hate fill voters is the inability to turn off the hate button. Cindy Sheehan, Michael Moore, George Soros, Chris Matthews and Allan Colms is proof of this. Even the Democrat voters are in a complete state of denial toward the danger and threats of terrorism. Stabilizing Iraq is not the objective here. Terrorism is. President Bush's surge is to attack terrorism, not to see that Iraq has running water and electricity. Why shouldn't President Bush believe in what he is doing. He believes in this country and the American people. Before the elections the Democrats didn't lift a finger to help protect this country or the American people. Why should they, they don't believe in this country or the American people. Polls don't run the Presidency. Bill Clinton is out of office. We have a President who can see the bigger picture of the threats, and dangers of terrorism, and won't let the propaganda by the Democrats and the media interfere with him doing what he was elected to do. Protect this country. Can we say the same thing about Bill Clinton when he was in office. NO WAY!

Rickster
I question our policy of going into Iraq in the first place. It was the wrong thing to do. It has cost more American lives than 9/11 and has given the terrorists a new training ground. By any measure it is an uminitaged disaster.

However, what annoys me most about this mess is that so many of my countrymen would support an unnecessary war in the beginning and then advocate withdrawing without fulfilling those obligations that such a war brings upon ourselves. Heck, even Bush's plan is a mere preparation for withdrawing.

World War 2
Incessant and ridiculous analogies to WW2 remain annoying and usually irrelevant, except rickster, though likely unknowingly, is correct that we are not the country of 60 years ago.
At our entrance to WW2 in 1941, the country had been mired in an economic depression for more than a decade. Jobs were scarce, money was tight and food was never wasted. Men(like my Dad) lied about their age in order to enlist and fight for their country. The war was fought between all the great nations on the planet with armies, navys and air forces. The attack on Pearl Harbor was perfomed by foreign airplanes launched from foreign aircraft carriers, not 19 guys with boxcutters on domestic flights.

America is softer, no one is starving, unemployment is practically nil and our adversaries have no national forces that can effectively threaten our nation, at least militarily. That is, unless you consider Russia and China adversaries, which is a very significant consideration.

Utahnotmormon
You have highlighted why Bush's plan will not succeed in dong what he has promised. And you are correct in your points. BTW, you see the thing about the Kurdish forces having the standoff with the US forces at the airport in Irbul?

However, the Iraqi government may, if we are lucky, be able to take on the role of a political framework for settling this civil war. It is too late for us to do what is necessary (attacking the Badr Brigades even as they "guard" government buildings and officers, and attacking the Madhi Army a well) in order to fully fulfill our obligations and the question is what is the best way to settle out of this moral debt we have gotten ourselves into.

As I say, the only thing worth mentioning about the President's current plans are the political reforms which might allow for the Iraqi government to eventually be a force of peace and stability once they decide to negotiate. If these reforms happen, 20000 more troops even at the expected higher casualty rates will be worth it. I opposed the war in the beginning. I have opposed pretty much every one of the President's plans, but I think that even though there are serious questions about this plan, it is the best chance we have to lessen the difficulties in achieving an end to that civil war which would not have existed if Bush hadn't been in such a rush to invade.

Steve
I really can't believe this article Don. Have you even read a book about Iraq yet?

NONE of the three major groups who are fighting each other in Iraq, (secular Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds) support Al Qaeda.

It also appears that they do NOT want to live together under the same government.

It is not clear to me how a country that believes in "freedom" thinks it ought to be able to force them to do so.

I am getting sick of people claiming that we are fighting "terrorists" in Iraq.

There are some rogue elements there, who say they're part of Al Qaeda and are causing mischief. They claim they are causing almost all of the violence even though they are causing almost none of it.

They will take credit for "booting" us out no matter when we leave and under what circumstances.

It takes a fundamental ignorance about Iraqi society to believe "terrorists" are causing the civil war in Iraq. Of course, that describes Bush to a tee.

The only strategy I can see is that he intends to stall this out and hand it off to the next President.


Polly
They haven't attacked us simply because it takes time to build such attacks. Even in Yemen, we see years pass between large attacks.

We have disrupted at least one bit attack against hardened targets, but we did the same in 1999, so....

The last six years have not been a fluke. We have not been merely lucky. The terrorists are in fact continuing to plan, continuing to plot, and one day, we will wake up to another large attack. It will be a different kind of weapon but probably the same kind of target. It will likely be some sort of explosive device (maybe conventional high explosive, or perhaps thermobaric). And the casualty count may be even higher.

We need to understand that this is going to happen sometime and that when it does our liberty will be under attack by the very people who claim to protect us (our government). Liberty often demands that we are willing to pay with our lives whether against a threat foreign or domestic, but too many citizens are not willing to pay that price and so there is a chance that this experiment in republican liberty may end at that point. But it won't if we are ready now and understand that it will happen.

Steve
The International Crisis Group suggests that al-Qaeda in Iraq is one of the larger insurgent groups. However all the evidence seems to be that this was something that the real al-Qaeda wanted very little to do with. I suspect tht al-Qaeda in Iraq is a wannabe or copycat group with strong Qutbist leanings (more interested in attacking "corrupt" Arab governments than attacking US or Israeli forces for now). This is a reason to try to end the civil war so that they are denied what is essentially an ideal training ground.

Maverick
You are right. Bush can see the bigger picture, which is why the political reforms he has insisted on look like they are a preparation for American withdrawal.

Steve?
'Scuse me, Steve. Those "rogue elements" who are "causing mischief" are NOT terrorists?

Good to finally know. Hopefully the MSM will stop calling them silly things like "insurgents" or just plain "fighters" (they're not so batty as to call them "terrorists") and call them what they really are: mischiefmakers.

Goodness, one really DOES learn much at TH.

Polly
Well now come on Polly.

There are some terrorists in Iraq.

They are not the cause of civil war between secular sunnis, shiites and Kurds. And NONE of these three groups is interested in giving them safe haven as the Taliban did in Afghanastan.

As long as there is a weak central government that is a government in name only, they will continue to cause mischief.

einhverfr
One thing that few people understand is that Moqtada Al-Sadr is an enemy of Iran, and an Iraqi nationalist, at least the Shia part. He probably has more popularity than any other person in Iraq at the moment, all reasons why the US doesn't just take him out, something we could do at any time, since he is not in hiding. If, as you say, the Bush speech is a prelude to withdrawl, it makes sense to have a Shia leader who is not in bed with Iran, like Abdul Aziz Al-Hakim, even if he is anti-American.

The only reason I see a troop surge accomplishing anything is to allow cover for Sunnis and Shiites to retreat to areas of dominance, then allow these areas to be governed and secured by the different entities. Maybe that's Bush's plan, but his continued insistence on Iraqi unity is puzzling in its stubborness and dangerous in its ineffectiveness.

General Odom
It is a surreal experience to hear people who call themselves life-long Republicans spewing doctrine that is right out of Woodrow Wilson's playbook.

I would encourage you to read General Odom's "Six Brutal Truths about Iraq". -- just plug that title into your google search box to pull it up. He is Ronald Reagan's former national security adviser and senior fellow at the Conservative Hudson institute as well as a Yale professor.

"Ask the president if he intends to leave a pro-American liberal regime in place. Because that’s just impossible. Postwar Germany and Japan are NOT models for Iraq. Each had mature (at least a full generation old) constitutional orders by the end of the 19th century. They both endured as constitutional orders until the 1930s. Thus General Clay and General MacArthur were merely reversing a decade and a half totalitarianism -- returning to nearly a century of liberal political change in Japan and a much longer period in Germany." -- General Odom






Utahnotmormon
I don't doubt that al-Sadr is a nationalist. However, note that he is the only major individual in Iraqi politics who has advocated an Iranian-style government-by-Islamic-Jurist according the International Crisis Group (the only group I have found to consistantly have good information about that country both before and after the initial invasion).

My bigger point is that he is involved in the sectarian violence. That is an issue and why we should not have stopped going after the Madhi Army.

Polly, which rogue elements?
The death squads attached to the Interior Ministry or the insurgents?

Sure they are all terrorists, even our allies in the Iraqi government.

einhverfr
I refer only to the "rogue elements" mentioned by Steve, described further only as "some." But they know who they are: they're the ones "causing mischief."

As in, "Rogue elements caused mischief today, blowing up an Iraqi recruitment center and killing 18 Iraqis." I like the gentleness of it.

Interesting Bush quote:
According to Bush, "We have a new strategy with a new mission: Helping secure the population, especially in Baghdad..."

In my view this is the most concise statement of the problem that anyone has yet put together. This should have been our mission from the day Saddam fell.

Polly
As opposed to taking Sunnis aside at roadblocks to guard the Interior Ministry and shooting them?

Is that not mischeif?

Polly
Or is the difference that it is not mischeif if they can hide behind the protection of our troops?

Polly writes:
"Yep, but al Qaida still hates us. And have you noticed that they've stopped hitting our embassies? Those embassies are considered "our soil." Nor have they hit us inside the U.S. Nor even our ships in port. They thought for a minute there that they had again awakened the sleeping giant; luckily, it was just a short-term eyelid flutter and the giant is sleeping again. But why risk it again? (It's called "deterrence.")"

You might want to brush up on your current affairs. Terrorists attacked our Consulate in Karachi in 2002 , our Consulate in Jeddah in 2004, our Embassy in Damascus in 2006, and just the other day our Embassy in Athens.

Since we are counting embassies
The Embassy in Jakarta has also been attacked a few times since 2001.

Now Polly
Well now come on Polly, that isn't the case at all. You constantly imply that "terrorists" are causing the violence in Iraq.

98% of the violence (and probably 99%) is sectarian in nature.

You constantly imply that it is the Iraqi government versus the insurgency. It it components IN the government that are opposing each other that prevents the political consolitdation from taking place.

The "Iraqi" army is a front for a number of different militias that oppose each other. The more you try to train them and equip them with military equipment, the bloodier the sectarian violence becomes.

You have absolutely NO idea who committed the bombing mentioned in your previous post.

You and I can both agree that murderers and thugs need to be taken care of. Your silly insinuation that I claim they are gentle nature lovers is pitiful.

To the extent foreign fighters operate in Iraq, they do so because of the phony unity government set up by Bush.


Steve
The International Crisis Group estimates that at a minimum, 90% of the insurgents are Iraqis, and that none of the groups at present have foreign leaders.

The ICG is the only group I have found that has had good information on Iraq both before and after the initial invasion. Maybe they actually do field research before reaching conclusions?

Steve
Sorry, Steve, but if someone explodes an IED or detonates a "suicide bomb" and kills or maims our soldiers, I think of that person as a terrorist. If someone attacks a recruitment center and kills miscellaneous Iraqis, almost certainly strangers to that murderer, I consider that person a terrorist.

Although you may infer that I think this war is the Iraqi government versus the insurgents, I do not mean to imply that.

I do not mean to insinuate that you claim these terrorists are gentle nature lovers. But I'm afraid "mischief" just seems like an inappropriate description of the activities of thugs who are eager to blow to bits complete strangers. Maybe "murder," "terrorism," or "evil," but not "mischief." Normally I'm all for euphemisms, but....

And it seems to me that these foreign terrorists are fighting there more because WE are there rather than because of the "phony unity government."

camanintx
You are correct, I do need to brush up on my current events.

Okay
In deference to you Polly, I'll stop using the word mischief.

But you seem to be arguing the most of the country (perhaps excepting the Kurds) are terrorists who should not be differentiated from Al Qaeda.

You also seem to be agreeing with me that this Unity government is phony at that this thing was not thought out well.

You also seem to realize that NONE of the groups in Iraq will give "foreign fighter" "Al Qaeda" whatever they are, safe haven.

I also think that the Unity government along with our presence are linked. Both have to go and a stable government must arise before Al Qaeda fighters get booted out of there.

The Shiites and the Kurds HATE Al Aqeda. So for that matter do the secular Sunnis.

As for einhverfr writes:
I was basing my percentages on General Abazaids testimony before Congress along with every other statement by our commanders in the field.

You can't seriously still be arguing that Al Qaeda caused the chaos in Iraq.


Conservative Brownback rips troop surge
http://www.controlcongress.com

Brownback leading conservative candidate for President from the GOP does not support Bush’s new plan to increase troops in Iraq. President Bush has lost support from all sides on his plan. Do you think it is fair to the troops for the President to go forward with very little support? Do you think it is time for everyone in Congress to go on the record if they support the new plan before President Bush sends in more troops?

BAGHDAD – U.S. Senator Sam Brownback today commented on President Bush’s proposal to increase the number of troops deployed to Iraq.

“I do not believe that sending more troops to Iraq is the answer,” said Brownback. “Iraq requires a political rather than a military solution. In the last two days, I have met with Prime Minister Maliki, with two deputy presidents and the president of the Kurdish region. I came away from these meetings convinced that the United States should not increase its involvement until Sunnis and Shi’a are more willing to cooperate with each other instead of shooting at each other.”

During a two day visit to Iraq, Brownback met with several Iraqi and U.S. officials, including U.S. Generals Raymond Odierno and George Casey, Jr., and U.S. Ambassador to Iraq Zalmay Khalilzad.

Brownback continued, “The Kurdish leadership does not wish to get in the middle of a sectarian fight between the Sunni and Shi’a, and the United States should not either. Instead of surging troops, we must press the Iraqi government to reach a political solution. We cannot achieve a political solution while a military solution is imposed. The best way to reach a democratic Iraq is to empower the Iraqis to take responsibility for their own nation building.”


Me? Argue about al-Qa'eda causing chaos
I never said that. al-Qa'eda in Iraq is one of the four major Sunni insurgency groups (according to the ICG report "In Their Own Words: Reading the Iraqi Insurgency") and by some estimates may be the largest, but:

1) They seem to only have a minimum to do with al-Qa'eda leaders in Afghanistan/Pakistan and probably nothing to do with them at all since Zarqawi's death. Even at the best of times, it was probably an arms-length relationshp.

2) Since Zarqawi's death, they seem to only be active in Iraq and not targetting other governments. In other words, despite their involvement in the 2005 Jordanian bombings, I think they have become just another insurgent organization.

I am just pointing out that they are probably fairly active. They are now, however, just another group, though because of their name, they get the most press.

Steve: The real problem
as I am sure you can agree is that many sectarian terrorists are now aligned with the coalition government in Iraq and they are infact sufficiently powerful politically to hide behind that government. Our men and women are thus human shields for these terrorists and that is not right.

It is way too late to try to offer security to ordinary Iraqis. Had we done this at first, we would have been successful by now, but this new mission is way too late.

The real "ideological struggle."
Lambro says, "He is acting on his deepest conviction that...we are engaged in 'the decisive ideological struggle of our time' against Islamic extremists who have declared war against the West and the United States, in particular."

I guess that would make sense if we bought the president's premise that Iraq is the center of the war on terror. Those of us in the reality based community see that our troops are caught in a civil war between religious factions that have hatreds going back many generations. Yes, there are some terrorists there---taking advantage of the turmoil---but the main action is the civil war.

That raises an obvious question: "What purpose is served by our brave men and women being caught in the crossfire of a conflict they didn't start and have nothing to do with?"

To which I would respond, "It's all about the oil." Imagine how much better off we'd be---and how many of troops would still be alive---if we'd just continued stringent sanctions on Iraq and put the money we've wasted on the war into a moon-shot scale renewable energy project aimed at making us independent of Middle East oil.

Bush long ago took his "eye off the ball" when it comes to the real war on terror. Where is Osama? Why are nuclear plants, chemical facilities, and cargo holds still not properly protected?


John Konop
Good for Brownback. He even visited the Kurds and asked for their opinion. I don't even think Bush knows that Kurds exist in Iraq.

PC Warfare?
"President Bush's surge is to attack terrorism, not to see that Iraq has running water and electricity."

Did you actually listen to his speech, or are you just parroting what you were ~told~ was his speech?

The President said the additional 21,000 U.S. troops will have a "well-defined mission: to help Iraqis clear and secure neighborhoods, to help them protect the local population, and to help ensure that the Iraqi forces left behind are capable of providing the security that Baghdad needs."

Baghdad cannot be "secure" until its damaged infrastructure (electricity, water, etc.) is restored, it has an independent, functional police force, and sectarian terrorism is stopped.

Some of the resident TH armchair generals suggest our forces in Iraq are being hampered by "politically correct" rules of engagement. Somehow, if only the military were free to _______ (kill anything that moves, level mosques and hospitals, unleash tactical nuclear weapons, etc.), we would "win".

If you define "victory" as the total devastation of the country, installation of a military government, and ruthless suppression of any opposition, then yes, we could "win". However, that sounds a lot like the regime of Saddam Hussein.

Forget the WWII analogies, please. This isn't the Third Reich's Panzer divisions or Admiral Yamamato's navy. The struggle in Iraq is an insurgency -- and won't be be resolved by military power alone. For documentation, check the December 15, 2006 update to the U.S. Army's Counterinsurgency Field Manual( http://www.leavenworth.army.mil) Here's an excerpt:

"Leaders at all levels must adjust their approach constantly, ensuring that their units are ready each day not just to kill or capture insurgents, but also to be nation builders as well as warriors, to help re-establish institutions and local security forces, to assist in the
rebuilding of infrastructure and basic services, and to facilitate the establishment of local
governance and the rule of law."

Johninoregon
Interestingly I am in Oregon at the moment on business...

I thin the ideological strugle of our time *is* a struggle for freedom. It is a struggle for freedom here in the US. It is a struggle to be free from the proprietary rights that some corporations want to place on everything from computer software to food. It is a struggle for freedom and to preserve the freedoms that we have.

And it really has very little to do with Iraq.

Utahnotmormon
I suspect that Bush thinks the Kurds are what you press and age to make cheese.

einhverfr writes:
I can't really disagree with your earlier post.

But I am extremely sceptical that there was any way to "have done this right."

You could have put 400,000 troops in there for 10 years, and there would have been stability. But once you left, the civil war would have started up.

What's 10 years in a 1,000 plus year dispute?

And what does this dispute have to do with Al Qaeda?

At some point, the break-up of Iraq probably needed to happen. But I doubt that this was the right way.

There are a number of ways to undermine despotic regimes that do not involve createing this kind of chaos.

Again, as a Conservative, it is a surreal experience to hear people from the Republican party stating that stable constitutional democracy can be formed in 5-10 years when it took our own forefathers more than 100 years to do so under far more favorable circumstances.

Steve
We shouldn't have gone in there at all, IMO. However, since we did, I think the idea that we could let our army be used as human shields for Shiite death squad militias is indefensible under any circumstance.

I don't think it would have taken ten years if we had really positioned ourselves as the champions of all Iraqis rather than taking sides in the sectarian killings.

I suspect that if we had waited instead of invading, that after Saddam's death, that we would have eventually found ourselves sucked into a civil war and that we would have done so with the backing of the international community.

Even if the choice is only between a less wrong way and a more wrong way, our current situation resulted from taking as many more wrong turns as we possibly could.

Bush Lied About WMD
You want to know how dumb Bush is? He told every friggin Democrat in Congress and the Senate that Iraq had WMD and 99% of them believed him. And everyone of them admits it. How does it feel to have these fine people representing you? Aren't you absolutely button-poppin' proud of them? This is your cream of the crop and you elect them year after year. And guess what? The MSM was fooled too. They couldn't find one insider to rat on Bush's lies. Don't you realize how utterly stupid it sounds to make the charge that Bush lied? And then expect us to believe that everybody in the country believed him? Grandma Joan has it right - the MSM browbeat the American people day after day. They were on a mission and are jubilant in having destroyed our president and so apparantly are many on this post. This crap was going on long before Bush arrived, and this story goes far beyond Iraq. If Bush had not gone to Iraq, the terrorism would not have stopped. It will not stop now. We would have been in Iraq or somewhere else. You better believe our grandchildren and great-grandchildren will be dealing with this, or will have succumbed to it. Get used to it. How long will you continue to bow to the east hoping to appease these lunatics? I am ashamed of the weak-kneed Republicans who have abandoned Bush on Iraq. America is a disgusting place to be right now. It's disgusting because I'm almost retirement age, retired from the USAF after 20 years in 1980, and now realize that this generation is no different from the generation of the 60's and 70's. You won't fight for anything. When the enemy arrives on our shores you will be there to greet him with a bouquet of flowers. Ahmadinejad is right - they will succeed - and they will destory us because America is weak, and most of us are too ignorant to realize how incredibly weak and cowardly we've become. Everyone writing here is impressed with their unbridled right to write as scathingly as they wish about our leaders (including myself). For the young among you, savor it, for it won't last long. Kerry and Kennedy wouldn't make good pimples on Bush's butt, and with the repulsive NYT and WaPo, represent the sickness in our society.


Vidette
I questioned whether Saddam had WMD's prior to the war, or rather if they were so certain he did have them, why were the weapons inspectors, formerly so successful, unable to find them? And why were those screeming for war unwilling to give time to the investigators?

But I was alone. Even my brothers and sisters, and my parents assumed that since Saddam had previously used these weapons on the Kurds, that he must still have them in the absence of confirmation of their destruction.

I said at the time that war was a mistake, that civil war was likely to result, and that it was a distraction from Afghanistan which could get worse. All my negative predictions have come to pass.

These questions are, however, completely separate from what we do now. I think anyone who actually studies the situation in Iraq and the political makeup of the current government knows that Bush's plan won't succeed as he envisions, not because of military constraints but because of political ones.

That being said, I will repeat my support for the President's doomed plan. At the very least, if he can get the Iraqi government to enact the legal reforms he has proposed, then it will make it easier on everyone when we do finally leave.

The courage of his convictions
...I think much of this article is bunkum..I don't kno where the author got his statistics from, but I don't believe in polls (no one has ever polled me). I don't believe a majority of the people in America are against this war..to be so, one has to have their head stuck in the sand. It would be tragic if it took another 9/11 for the detractors to wake up and see the danger. President Bush is the only president in recent history who has shown the courage to do his duty for the American people. He doesn't watch polls, to my knowledge, and neither do I. What's more, I believe there are a lot of people who should have been charged with treason back when the press and members of the Congress began openly spewing strong criticism of the president's strategy, encouraging the terrorists to continue their mayhem...
musnkatz

The Plan

I believe President Bush said he would give Maliki until November to get it together. Then, he will call for the end of our engagement in Iraq.

What's so difficult to understand about that?

As for the MSM, I would hope those who want to call it quits now would go to a better source for their information.

I have.

Sonny:
Bush didn't actually say that, but if you listened carefully, it seemed that there was a sense that we were not going to be there much longer. I suspect that by November troops will be redeployed regardless of progress by Maliki.

50,000 Cindy Sheehans........
...50,000 poor, demented females who hug brawny pitchmen (Jesse Jackson) and bulky brawny dictators (Hugo Chavez) in order to feel good. Furthest-Reaches, you must be kidding.

I can't wait to see the look of incredulity on your face when, if we leave Iraq too soon, the local Muslims actually want YOUR HEAD. Get a grip.

for Vidette & friends...
...Bush lied? You really ARE out of touch. As it's been pointed out EVEN in the rabid NYT, the intelligence given to everyone - I said everyone - from the Clinton years on, was that Saddam had WMD. Saddam stalled everyone while, in the 4 months that the sleazy U.N. & Congress were catered to by GWB, it was easy as pie to ship all his deadly stuff to Syria and/or hide it in the sand.

That's just one of your misguided opinions. You need to do some heavy-duty research before you post again.

utahnotmormon & friends...
...Y'all like to think GWB is dumb. Yeah, dumb like a fox. The truly dumb but manipulative ones are Pelosi, Reid, Kerry, Kennedy and their pals.
The chickens will come home to roost.

Lambro's column of 13 January 2007
Before we rush to condemn or support President Bush's latest strategy to send more troops, we should all stop to ask ourselves a few questions.

The first question that comes to mind is the one our President asked Senator Kerry in the 2004 campaign for President:

If you knew then (before we went into Iraq) what you know now, would you have gone into Iraq?

President Bush has admitted that he has mishandled the conduct of the war and that this has led to Iraq being the center of a conflagration that threatens to consume the Middle East before it spreads its destruction throughout the world.

Although his admissions are hardly a ringing endorsement to continue to follow him down a path that shows no clear destination, do you believe what he says about what will happen if we abandon Iraq to the Iraqis? Will the Sunni and Shia roles in Iraq be reversed from what they were under Saddam, i.e., will it be Shias murdering Sunnis? What will happen between Turkey and the Kurds?

Other questions to ponder:

Were the French prescient or was it just a lucky guess that we ought to wait before we went to war for the UN inspectors to confirm Saddam was an actual threat in possession of hidden stockpiles of WMDs?

If you think so now, but didn't think so then that the French were right (whether lucky guess or prescience) should we start paying more attention to what the French say and less to what the neocons say?

Do you believe now that Clinton should have started a war with Iraq or that he was wise to do what he did to keep them from developing WMDs (Sanctions, enforce flyovers, occasional bombings, etc.)

Let's say the current POTUS had waited and found no WMDs and found that Saddam was, in fact, Al Qaeda's biggest enemy in Iraq, would you have, unlike the first President Bush or Clinton, supported going into Iraq to liberate the Shias and the Kurds from the brutal rule of the Sunnis?

Would you have supported General Shinseki's recommendation to send in more troops from the beginning to do this liberating, if you knew then what you know now?

How long would you have followed the neocons (Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Krauthammer, Kristol, Cheney, and Perle) if you knew then what you know now?

As a show of contrition to the French for having changed the name of French fries to Freedom fries, should we consider changing the name back to French fries as a first step in repairing our frayed relations with them? Just on the offhand chance they might consider helping as we continue to save Iraq from itself?

Do you believe we should start now, no matter how small the gestures to try to enlist the help of the other countries of the world into the repair of the world that threatens to implode or do you think our 21,500 troops will suffice?

If they don't suffice,would you favor using low yield nuclear weapons to continue our program for saving Iraq? If not nuclear weapons, would you favor reinstituting the draft to get more soldiers to go continue the program?

Tr@ce








The Democracy of Anarchus
A fool has the courage of his convictions, too.

Courage is good, but wisdom is better.

As Anarchus said, "Democracy seems to be a system where the wise speak and the fools decide." It was an astute observation, but experience has shown that democracy can also be a system where the fools speak and the fools decide. People vote for people who share their fears, and fear will never be wisdom.

Attacking Iraq because we feared WMD is still acting on fear. Also, it seems to ignore the reality that Saddam was cooperating with the UN inspectors at the time.

What people fear most is their own mrror. It doesn't lie.

http://www.behappyandfree.com


Tr@ce
Just curious, have you considered the possibility that the good leaders of France just might have been employing a delaying tactic to cover their collective behinds for their participation for the biggest fraud in history, the "Oil for Food" program?

And that while France was slowing down the process in the U.N., Saddam got the time and cover he needed to bury or export his incriminating evidence?

Hey... I like a lot of things French. I enjoy French restaurants; they make great perfumes & colognes, produce great wine, and their language is arguably the best of the "romantic" languages.

Beyond that, France, as a voice in foreign affairs, is an envious nation with a giant chip on its shoulder that it no longer is a power in the real world. It attempts to maintain prominence by behaving like a spoiled brat.

It did not take the present conflict to foster my views on the French. I will NEVER forget when they denied the use of their airspace for the U.S retalitory attack on Libya during President Reagan's term. And I will not forget their shows of ingratitude for pulling their collective chestnuts out of the fire in two world wars, which, incidentally, cost a helluva lot more U.S. lives than the 3,000 brave men and women in Iraq today.

Steve opines:
"...Also, it seems to ignore the reality that Saddam was cooperating with the UN inspectors at the time."

Really? Not even Hans Blix's last report to the U.N. claimed Saddam was "cooperating".

So who claims he was? Maureen Dowd, maybe?

Enemy-Behind-the Enemy
A bad peace is even worse than war.
Tacitus


I have been the loudest critic of this president, but now I think he deserves credit for realizing that the war must be expanded to Iran.
So when all his men desert him, this former enemy will stand by him for total victory.
We have not spent 400 billion dollars, over 3,000 lives, 25,000 injured to hand the Mideast over to our Iranian enemies.
We simply were focusing on the wrong theater, but thanks to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad--who cannot keep his big mouth shut--we now know for certain that it is Iran which is the state sponsor of terrorism we have been seeking all along.
It was Iran which kidnapped both Americans and Israelis, and it is Iran which attacked our nation on Sept 11th, 2001, by Saudi and Yemeni proxy.
It is Iran which is responsible for the IEDs which have mutilated our soldiers, and it is Iran which must pay the price for attacking America.
This Bush-hater wishes the president supreme good fortune in the war on terror, for his interest is the national interest.
Now is not a time for defeatism or doubt.
-----------
Americans love to fight. All real Americans love the sting of battle.
George S. Patton

The test of success is not what you do when you are on top. Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom.
George S. Patton

wmd
"As it's been pointed out EVEN in the rabid NYT, the intelligence given to everyone - I said everyone - from the Clinton years on, was that Saddam had WMD" Vidette

Yes. What has angered me most is the hypocritical RE-WRITE of history vis-a-vis WMD since the 2004 presidential campaign. With few notable exceptions, the Democrats have refused to acknowledge their positions on WMD in the years leading up to the invasion. Instead, since the 2004 campaign, they have done a 180 degree turnaround and invented the "Bush lied" meme to cover their derrieres.

In August of 1998 Congress was so concerned about Iraq and its WMD that it passed (one would hope, based on INTELLIGENCE):

Public law 105-235: After 28 "whereas" Congress concluded that "the President is urged to take appropriate action,in accordance with the Constitution and relevant laws of the United States, to bring Iraq into compliance with its international obligations".

This was followed shortly by Public Law 105-338, the Iraq Liberation Act. It expressed "the sense of Congress that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove from power the current Iraqi regime and promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime."

Both of these LAWS were cited by Congress in the by-partizan authorization to invade Iraq in 2002.

Our newly-elected Speaker of the House summarized the consensus of the majority of our elected and appointed officials during the Clinton administration:

"As a member of the House Intelligence Committee, I am keenly aware that the proliferation of chemical and biological weapons is an issue of grave importance to all nations. Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." Press Release by Nancy Pelosi, December 1998, from her website.

As Vidette said: "This crap was going on long before Bush arrived, and this story goes far beyond Iraq"



Revolutionary: Iran
And where are we going to get the troops necessary to do anything more than unite the Iranian people behind Ahmedinejad?

Would you be in favor of a draft?

Krystalbird: You are gullible
enough to believe that there are any politicians that don't lie routinely. Why do you think Bush is an exception? Heck, Bush even pretends to be dumb and he is a better liar than Kerry (or rather Kerry can't lie as well as Bush).

Yes Bush lied. But that is hardly newsworthy any more than the fact that the sun will rise tomorrow.

Primus 54
Mr. 54,

I have considered that France was delaying to cover for their complicity in the "Oil for Food" program.

However, I'm still puzzled at why we went against the recommendation of the Chief Weapons Inspector, Hans Blix, that he wanted more time to find whether or not Saddam was hiding WMDs. I believe our President warned the inspectors to get out of Iraq about 48 hours before he ordered bombing (Shock and Awe). Wouldn't you think we'd want confirmation from the UN for what we knew for sure but most of the rest of the world was dubious about, i.e., that Saddam was stockpiling WMDs?

When the American inspectors didn't find any WMDs it made me wonder if Clinton hadn't been wise not to go starting a war based on "slam dunk" analyses from his CIA analysts. It also makes me wonder more every day why George Bush chose to keep Tenet (Clinton's handpicked man) as CIA director.

I'm less worried that Saddam was able to export or bury his WMDs than you are. No evidence has turned up anywhere of that. You'd think Kay's team who spent nearly/more than two years there would've come across a shred of evidence to that effect. In any case, by the time we attacked, there were no WMDs. I'll reframe my question: "If you'd known when we went in that there were no longer any WMDs in Iraq, would you have supported or opposed going in?"

If you'd still have supported going in, what would you have wanted to get done?

If President Bush came out tomorrow and said that France (in return for Freedom fries being re-renamed French fries in the House cafeteria) had decided to send 21,500 foreign legionaires into Baghdad to help us "get our chestnuts out of the fire," would you take the help? Even if you knew in your heart of hearts that their true motive was really so that we'd start taking them seriously again instead of thinking of them as "spoiled brats" and that maybe we'd give them a shot at some of the Iraqi rebuilding contracts that American companies are floundering on?

Tr@ce








einhverfr opines:
"Yes Bush lied. But that is hardly newsworthy..."

Proving once again... if a lie is repeated often enough... if becomes the "truth" to those who want to believe it.

Had Bush ever lied? Of course he has. Just as I know I have lied on occasion as has "einhverfr" and every other person who can be honest with themselves.

But... did Bush lie about WMD?

Contrary to his critics and the MSM (redundant, I know), I don't believe he did... and, so far, there hasn't been one credible source who claims factual knowledge otherwise.

I sometimes wonder how any of us would fare if our every thought, word & deed was under the hostile microscope this president has had to endure. Not too well, I imagine.

That he has endured it so far without compromising his core beliefs... as I know others before him have done... speaks volumes of this man's character, agree with him or not.

Those who site "polls" as though they have some power or deep meaning over this or any president need to brush up on their civics lessons.

The very reason we have a representative republic, and don't make all our governmental decisions by referendum was to specifically to avoid the herd mentality and to protect the interests of the minority.

The person who holds the highest office of the land is supposed to govern through leadership. And leadership sometimes means having a vision beyond the next election or the short attention span of the "herd", and acting on said vision even when it is unpopular through the lense of the present.

History (if we still have a future), will judge the effectiveness of this president... not the crticis and pundits of today.

Bianca
The reason history will look at Clinton and the Democrats more favorably than they will at George Bush is because the Clinton and the Democrats had the same intelligence George Bush had and yet they did not recklessly lead us into a war that has now cost us more than 3,000 lives and will, by conservative estimates, cost us over a trillion dollars even if we leave tomorrow.

Had it not been for Democrats resisting going into Iraq until the administration went before the UN, we would have gone to war before we did without getting the UN resolutions to inflict grave consequences on Iraq unless they opened up for inspections. Even on the eve of the bombing of Baghdad, the Democrats and most of the rest of the world were urging us to give inspections a chance.

Instead of allowing the inspectors to continue looking for the WMDs President Bush knew were there, President Bush gave them 48 hours to get out before starting the bombing.

I agree with you that many Democrats believed Saddam had WMDs. My own family believed he had WMDs. We watched the whole thing unfold and we strongly supported the efforts of the President to convince the world that action must finally be taken. I thought George Bush was a genius posing as a Texan because I thought he was bluffing Saddam into opening up for inspections. I wondered why Clinton hadn't sent our troops to gather in Kuwait as a show of force. Once and for all, I thought, we're going to find out.

But, alas, I began to worry when I saw Colin Powell's presentation before the U.N. It seemed like smoke and mirrors to me. And then, the next day when the Washington Post lead editorial came out under the headline IRREFUTABLE I began to be more than a little dubious. To me it was far from irrefutable that Saddam had WMDs. Turns out I was right to be dubious and the President of the United States, all of the vaunted intelligence community, the Washington Post, the pundits, the neocons, the warriors in Congress, were all wrong; horribly, tragically, and irretrievably wrong.

If Iraq had been easy, the reasons President Bush gave for going into the war would still have been wrong. Since we went in, he has looked for other reasons for deposing Saddam, and has found some. Some sound good, some have the ring of righteousness, others the ring of truth, and may have, properly presented, been sufficient to convince Americans to send their sons and daughters and treasure into the jaws of war. But that case was not even attempted until after his WMD and terrorist arguments were disproved.

My question to you remains: If you knew then what you know now, would you still support the actions President Bush has taken?

Tr@ce


No Mention Of Saudi Arabia as the Enemy
No where and I men no where and I mean the Democrats, waffling Republicans, the media and the Military is there anything said about our mortal enemy Saudi Arabia

They, incited. financed & taught their pathetic population in Mosques and Schools whose hatred killed 3000 Americans in 1 hour. Scum!

They are financing the Insurgency in Iraq to protect the Sunni's.

They have lost 3000 men in Iraq killing our 3000 men. SCUM

They are teaching Democracy hate in American and Foreign Countries in their Mosques and Schools.

Prince Bandar and his wife that was implicated in 9/11, waltz in and out of Washington.

Bush is still kissing their behinds.

Oh yeah I voted for Bush for other conservative reasons in hopes I could figure out his rationale which appears treasoness up front.

I'd like a rationale input to his rationale as I have thrown up enough already.

Primus54
I think that it is likely that Bush lied about the motivation for going into Iraq. If it was about WMD concerns, I think they would have given the coercive inspections more time to work.

My own view is that the position articulated by someone from the Heritage Foundation is likely to have been the real reason. The issue is that in order to maintain the stability of our oil supply, we have to have a military presense in the region, and that having large military bases in Saudi Arabia is destabilizing and hence giving propaganda opportunities for bin Ladin. The solution is to redeploy those forces into Iraq with the idea that over time, we can rent bases there. I suspect the issue of the WMD inspections were brushed aside because we didn't know if anything would be found.

Of course it is also possible that our government didn't do any actual field research as to intelligence before making such claims and relied solely on interpretations of sattelite images. So I can't rule out incompetence but I don't think it explains the rush to cut short inspections.

Paul
One of the odd insanities about the current Middle East policy is that we support a Wahhabist regime which holds that all non-Muslims are infadels to be struggled against (Saudi Arabia) while condemning the Shiite regimes in the area which have a more tolerant look on non-Muslims.

Except in Iraq where the situation is almost exactly reversed.

I suspect that the Saudi government sees the US as nothing more than a grand customer of their primary export. I am not a Muslim (I am in fact a pagan) but I will say that no interpretation of the Koran and early Muslim history can support many of Saudi Arabia's laws, such as the ban on women driving (if Mohammed's first wife lead armies into battle on the back of a camel...).

The International Crisis Group put out an extremely important report called "Understanding Islamism" wich I think everyone should read. Their web site is at http://www.crisisweb.org

Bianca & Krystalbird
"As it's been pointed out EVEN in the rabid NYT, the intelligence given to everyone - I said everyone - from the Clinton years on, was that Saddam had WMD" Vidette

I did not make this statement in my post - Krystalbird did.

Krystalbird: if you read my post again, you will realize we're on the same side.

to einhverfr
You did not answer the questions being asked. You simply tried to divert by bringing up the Republic of Ireland. I think we should cut off any and all foreign aid to any country found aiding terrorists, and if there are those in America aiding them, they should be arrested and tried and if found guilty, receive whatever punishment is meted out for treason.

That being said, Saddam was in violation of numerous UN Resolutions, and he was playing a dangerous game with weapons inspectors. He was torturing and killing his own people. Diversion is not a credible debate tactic.

The Real Deal
If you do not understand the following you don't undestand anything of what is going on in the world at the present time:

(1) Geo. Bush is not the leader of this country. The Council on Foreign Relations runs this country. Bush is their errand boy. He has their complete backing, which is why he cares nothing about polls. They only represent the views of the American people, and why should he care what they think?

(2)The only ones who support Bush at the present time are the foolish Evangelical Christians who can't see past the abortion sign on the end of their noses.

(3)Bush and his masters on the CFR are only interested in one thing--creating a one world government a.k.a The New World Order.

(4) This is why they are now intent on creating a North American Union, which then explains why they do not want to secure the Mexican border, so that the USA, Mexico and Canada can be merged into one superstate, just like the European Union.

(5)The war in Iraq is an attemp to bring that country in line with NWO thinking to prepare that area for inclusion. If Americans have to die for this to happen so what? We must think of the wonderful long range results of this action.

(6) The last fellows who thought in this manner were named Marx and Lenin. They also thought they knew more than anyone else, which is why they could kill millions and not lose any sleep over it. Bush and the CFR are in the same league.


einhverfr
I hear you and understand your point, but I still believe the president meant what he said when he spoke of a "gathering threat" to the region AND U.S. interests through the continued existence of the Saddam regime. That there are "side benefits" to this action does not necessarily mean the president made his decision on those alone, and was therefore dishonest with the citizenry.

Put simply, I believe all this talk and spin about Bush's honesty is more a result of projection by his opponents than anything of real substance. There has been so much corruption and negativity about politicians in general that it is impossible for some people to believe a relatively honest politician can exist. And I'm certainly not saying I believe Bush to be 100% lily white in all things political... I too have my issues with some of his policies, border protection being the largest in my view.

As to Iraq, I believe Bush to have been honest mostly because of the real risks he undertook there with real lives... and the entirely forseeable political risks he's taken here at home.

You and I will just have to agree to disagree... which is good by me!

Primus54

Dr. North
I see you watched the program about secret societies and conspiracy groups last night on the History Channel... and obviously were convinced by the kooks on that program.

Are you a real doctor? Or do you just "play one on Townhall"?

Does anyone ever EXAMINE the WOT?
Does ANYONE think screaming "Hate Bush" will win victory?

Has anyone considered our options?
What would happen if Democrats pulled out?
All those who trusted America would be slaughtered just like they were in Vietnam.
Iran would take control of Iraqi oil wealth.
Terrorists would have a new training ground.
WOT would continue with our enemies even stronger. Ahmadinejad would probably get his nuke provoke Israel to turn the whole ME into a glass roller rink with their 225 nukes.

The Democrats reputation for not being trustworthy with National Security would be carved in stone during a DECADES long war and it would end the Democrat Party.
Iraq would eventually need to be retaken at a higher cost in lives and with NO Iraqi Allies.
Giving Iraq to the terrorists would simply prolong the war and cost more lives.

Let's recruit man's best friend
I wonder why the Army doesn't go out to every animal shelter in the country and adopt the dogs that are about to be put to sleep.... match them with one of our solders who is about to go to Iraq, train the dogs for a range of special functions,..... primarily sniff out the detestable IEDs ..... help with the house to house to house searches... etc. ..... and cut in half the number of troops that we need in Iraq.

Since most of these great animals were going to be destroyed anyway, give them a chance at survival...and if they die, let them die with dignity and honor protecting our troops!

Phylo...
...is a genius. Anybody who responds to him is an idiot.

grandma joan
You are old enough to remember how Truman was pummeled in the press and by every comdeian on tv and radio.

I think history has treated him well.

Unacceptable Delays
Who cares if Bush really believes in his convictions? Convictions can be wrong. I want to know why Bush let the troops hanging for months while he worked on a new plan. Why wasn't this plan developed earlier? Do we have a Plan B now? If his "new" plan doesn't work, are we going to have to tell our troops to wait a couple of months for the new plan? This, more than anything else, makes me white-hot mad.

We should demand a Plan B and Plan C. Get it together right now. Don't make our troups have to wait again.

love the W
I

love the W
I truly believe that the W is totally committed to what is "best" for this country! He was elected from all the choices, twice. He has shrugged off the constant critcism of the MSM, and the like, who because of political differences have put aside the protection of the American people in the broad-view, and the long run. People cannot look beyond the end of their noses and look what can happen. I'm glad Bush is a Churchill and not a Chamberlain. God bless Polly, Grndma Joan, and America!

Bush the puppet
Dear Primus 54:
Calling people kooks does not make an argument. If I am wrong, illustrate how? And by the way I did not see the aforementioned program, but I am quite sure it was an exercise in sarcasm, as that is the only defense these people have at the moment. Did they mention they ubiquitous black helicopters that are supposedly spying on us, etc.?

I would like to know your explanation for the coming North American Union, and why the government has no interest in stopping illegal immigration, and why they are making plans for the North American Corridor that will run from Mexico through the heart of America all the way to Canada. Or for that matter--your explanation for anything I mentioned besides the comment that everyone else is a kook because they evidently know more about this subject than youi do.

leaving iraq
All those who trusted America would be slaughtered just like they were in Vietnam.

From "Iraq:Learning the lessons of Vietnam".

"In the days leading up to the U.S. invasion of Iraq, television stations there showed 1975 footage of U.S. embassy support personnel escaping to helicopters from the roof of the U.S. embassy in Saigon. It was Saddam's message to his people that the United States does not keep its commitments and that we are only as good as the word of our current president"

Ole' Saddam judged many of us pretty well, didn't he?

Bianca
I followed closely many sources of information before the war and during the initial invasion. I found our own press to be very uninformative. The BBC and the Israeli press were both better. THe best source of general background information was, however, the International Crisis Group (http://www.crisisweb.org).

Interestingly the bits we were hearing in this country about intelligence reports from Iraq were all so far off that I wonder if the CIA actually had people on the ground at all. A few points:

1) Crisisweb published a series of papers which detailed how Saddam "managed" the tribal opposition by ensuring that they were largely distracted from him by fighting eachother. The BBC covered Saddam's army giving out weapons on street corner to anyone and everyone who walked by.

2) US reports indicated that Iraq eas moving missiles into place to strike Israel. The Israeli press reported that Israeli intelligence said that this was not the case and that some missiles were being moved around to increase their apparent numbers. Guess who was right? The Israelis.

Based on a lot of this information, I concluded that we were likely to find ourselves in an unwinnable civil war after the invasion. Today, I see the war as politically unwillable. To me the question is not if we leave but rather how. So far, the President's plan looks like the best withdrawal scenario yet.

Why Iraq?
Libs have repeatedly bashed Bush for invading Iraq and deposing Saddam.

They claim we have accomplished nothing in the war against terror in Iraq. Some claim we've made it worse by "creating" more terrorists.

Mostly, they claim Saddam had "no WMD" and was not a threat to the US. They use these arguments to justify their recommendation that we should cut and run.

Our failure/refusal to depose Saddam after the 1991 Gulf War resulted in the deaths of thousands of Kurds in the north of Iraq.

Reacting to Saddam's savage mass murder of the Kurds, the UN imposed "No-fly" zones over Iraq, which were enforced by US and British aircraft.

While continuously patrolling these "No-fly" zones in 1994, two US fighters erroneously shot down two US Army helicopters, killing 34 US soldiers.

In November of 1995 terrorists objecting to the assistance Saudi Arabia gave the UN/US during the Gulf War bombed apartments in Riyahd, Saudi Arabia, killing 34 westerners.

On June 25, 1996, terrorists bombed the Khober Towers apartments in Dahrahn, Saudi Arabia, which housed US airmen maintaining our patrols over the "No-fly" zones. Nineteen US airmen died.

Saddam also tried to assassinate former President George H. W. Bush in retaliation for his defeat in the Gulf War.

Over 200 attacks have been launched by ground-based missiles against US and UK planes patrolling the "No-fly" zones.

Osama bin Laden is on record as saying that our military presence on Saudi soil is part of what motivated him to attack American interests, including the above-mentioned attacks, attacks on our embassies in Kenya and Tanzania (several Americans and hundreds of Africans dead), theattack on the USS Cole (17 US sailors dead), and two attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon (over 3,000 Americans dead, nearly all civilians). And that presence was necessary only because of Sadda; only so we could continue to patrol the "NO-fly" zones.

And then of course we have the US and other UN casualties from the Gulf War itself.

The vast majority of all of these deaths are at least indirectly traceable back to Saddam.

Bin Laden has also said that our unwillingness to stand and fight in Somalia is what convinced him that attacks against the US can succeed; that we don't have the courage to win; that we will cut and run. He is counting on it.

On the other hand, since Bush took us to Iraq (and Afghanistan before that) there have been no successful terrorist attacks against us. It is true that we have lost 3,000 servicemen, but that compares to tens of thousands, possibly more than 100,000, terrorists caught or killed.

The cleansing of terrorists from Iraq is a dirty job. But the war against terror will only get dirtier and costlier if we don't finish it.

Saddam was a threat to US military and civilian lives. And the worst thing we can do in war against terrorists is cut and run.

Besides Iraq there is Immigration
Bush wants us to cut the amount of gas we use. The best way to stop using so much gas is to deport 11 million illegal immigrants! That would be 11 million less people using our gas. The price of gas would come down.

Bring some of our troops home from Iraq to guard the border. When they catch an illegal immigrant crossing the border, hand him a canteen, rifle and some ammo and ship him to Iraq . Tell him if he wants to come to America then he must serve a tour in the military. Give him a soldier's pay while he's there and tax him on it!

After his tour, he will be allowed to become a citizen since he defended this country. He will also be registered to be taxed and be a legal patriot. This option will probably deter illegal immigration and provide a solution for the troops in Iraq and the aliens trying to make a better life for themselves.

If they refuse to serve, ship them to Iraq anyway, without the canteen, rifle or ammo. Problem solved!


would I support bush knowing what I know
My question to you remains: If you knew then what you know now, would you still support the actions President Bush has taken? Tr@ce

Trace, your question certainly provides some good food for thought.

When the coalition invaded Iraq, I had no idea of how long it would take to militarily defeat the Iraqis. I assumed our involvement there
would extend beyond any military victory. I assumed that our commitment would be similar to that in Japan and Germany after WW2, that we would remain and assist in the rebuilding of Iraq as Iraqis faced the daunting task of learning how to govern, how to FUNCTION, in the absence of a dictatorship. I did not see that happening quickly. I assumed there would be opposition from members of the Hussein regime and their supporters. I also THOUGHT that our national officials who authorized the invasion were also committed to supporting Iraq in its transition to democracy.

I still firmly believe the invasion of Iraq was just. That belief is based on information found by reading:

1. The cease-fire agreement ending hostilities in the first Gulf war.
2. UNSCOM WMD inspections reports 1991-1998.
3. UN resolutions condeming and threatening Iraq for being in breach of its obligations vis a vis WMD.
4. PL105-235(Iraqi Breach of International Obligations Act) of 1998 in which Congress asked President Clinton to take action against Iraq because of its continued violation of the 1991 cease fire conditions.
5. PL105-338(Iraqi Liberation Act 1998)in which it became US law to support the removal of the Hussein regime and replace it with a democratic form of government.
6. the Joint Congressional Authorization for the Use of Military Force in Iraq and its summary of the case against Iraq dating from the first Gulf war.
7. multiple and continuing statements from our elected and appointed leaders between 1998 and 2003 that repeatedly told us that Iraq posed a threat to US, mid-east and world security.
8. repeated individual statements by many leaders in the international community echoing our concerns about the Hussein regime and the theat it posed to world security.
9. the history of the Hussein regime, its suppression of the Iraqi people and the barbaric methods it used in that suppression.
10.commentary in blogs from outside the US: Australia, Canada, France, Spain, Italy, the UK, Germany, Belgium ...
Added post-invasion
11. the Iraqi Survey Group report.
12. documents seized in Iraq post-invasion.
13. articles from MEMRI
14. Iraq the Model

However, in 2003:

I NEVER anticipated how quickly the many arguments for the invasion would be forgotten, abandoned, swept into oblivion by a chorus of naysayers.

I could not envision the "amnesia" that would, within a YEAR, SILENCE so many of the most pursuasive voices who told us that Iraq was a threat, that the Hussein regime must be removed.

In 2003, I would never have believed that, within a little more than a year, so many of the SAME architects of the Iraqi Liberation Act and the Authorization to Invade would perform hypocritical 180 degree turns on their position on Iraq in the grab for political power. I never dreamed those architects had merely supported the "invasion" but not helping Iraq in the transition to another form of government.

I NEVER imagined that those voices who told us about the savagery of the "Butcher of Bagdad" would barely whisper when Saddam was caught, when elections were held, when the madman received his just due.

I had NO IDEA how angry and disgusted I would become with the hypocrits at the UN who cried "illegal war" and "War for oil" while being bought off by fat payments generated from the OFF program, while selling banned arms to Iraq, while oppposing an invasion so they wouldn't lose lucrative trade agreements with Iraq.

I would not have believed that the fiery rhetoric of so many of our elected officials would soon resemble that of those very same hypocrits at the UN and our worst enemies. (As I hear John Kerry, speaking in Switzerland, calling the US an "international pariah" followed by Jane Fonda droning on in a flashback to the 1970s.)

I would never have believed that the information reported on Iraq in both US and international media would, in great part, ignore the progress and successes achieved by the sacrifice and dedication of coalition troops and the Iraqi people.

And I had no idea how many of our troops we would lose.

In spite of all that, and looking at the circumstances on which the decision to invade was based, I still support President Bush's actions.

Would I wish that some things had been done differently? Yes. I wish there had been a larger invasion force. I wish all the countries that routinely CONDEMNED Iraq with their WORDS had backed up their rhetoric with FORCES. I wish the UN would actually ENFORCE their resolutions and when they warn of "serious consequences" actually ENACT "serious consequences".(Has anyone heard anything about those Israeli soldiers who were supposed to be returned after last summer's cease-fire?)I wish those who supported the invasion had remained steadfast for at LEAST two or three years instead of joining forces with those who wanted us out of Iraq barely a year after the invasion.I wish world leaders were more forthcoming in condemning the terrorists from outside Iraq intent on preventing Iraq from stabelizing.

In the weeks preceding the invasion, Iraqi TV played tapes of the US leaving Vietnam. It was Saddam's message to the Iraqis not to count on the US. With "peace marchers" gathering in Washington, I hope that Saddma Hussein, in death, will not have the last laugh and be proven right.
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