Townhall.com, Where Your Opinion Counts
Talk Radio:   Bill Bennett   Mike Gallagher   Dennis Prager   Michael Medved   Hugh Hewitt   
BREAKING NEWS  LeftArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican   RightArrow - Townhall.com : Conservative, Political, Republican  
Columns, funnies & more in your inbox!
  • Check the boxes and send us your email address to receveive your free newsletter
  • Your daily must-read of conservative columns, cartoons and news. Coulter, Sowell, Krauthammer and more.
  • Townhall.com’s weekly inside scoop on what’s happening behind the scenes in the world of politics. When news breaks, we report.
  • Signup to receive the latest daily Townhall cartoons
Monday, November 05, 2007
Dinesh D'Souza :: Townhall.com Columnist
Was Hitler a Christian?
by Dinesh D'Souza
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
[+] Text [-]
 
Poll
Do you feel the leaked information from a global warming alarmist organization is meaningful?



Embarrassed at the murderous legacy of atheist Communist regimes in the twentieth century, leading atheists seek to even the score with believers by portraying Adolf Hitler and his Nazi regime as theist and specifically Christian. Atheist websites routinely claim that Hitler was a Christian because he was born Catholic, he never publicly renounced his Catholicism, and he wrote in Mein Kampf, “By defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” Atheist writer Sam Harris writes that since “the Holocaust marked the culmination of…two hundred years of Christian fulminating against the Jews,” therefore “knowingly or not, the Nazis were agents of religion.”

How persuasive are these claims? Hitler was born Catholic just as Stalin was born into the Russian Orthodox Church and Mao was raised as a Buddhist. These facts prove nothing as many people reject their religious upbringing, as these three men did. From an early age, historian Allan Bullock writes, Hitler “had no time at all for Catholic teaching, regarding it as a religion fit only for slaves and detesting its ethics.”

How then do we account for Hitler’s claim that in carrying out his anti-Semitic program he was an instrument of divine providence? During his ascent to power, Hitler needed the support of the German people—both the Bavarian Catholics and the Prussian Lutherans—and to secure this he occasionally used rhetoric such as “I am doing the Lord’s work.” To claim that this rhetoric makes Hitler a Christian is to confuse political opportunism with personal conviction. Hitler himself says in Mein Kampf that his public statements should be understood as propaganda that bears no relation to the truth but is designed to sway the masses.

The Nazi idea of an Aryan Christ who uses the sword to cleanse the earth of the Jews—what historians call “Aryan Christianity”—was obviously a radical departure from the traditional Christian understanding and was condemned as such by Pope Pius XI at the time. Moreover, Hitler’s anti-Semitism was not religious, it was racial. Jews were targeted not because of their religion—indeed many German Jews were completely secular in their way of life—but because of their racial identity. This was an ethnic and not a religious designation. Hitler’s anti-Semitism was secular.

Hitler’s Table Talk, a revealing collection of the Fuhrer’s private opinions, assembled by a close aide during the war years, shows Hitler to be rabidly anti-religious. He called Christianity one of the great “scourges” of history, and said of the Germans, “Let’s be the only people who are immunized against this disease.” He promised that “through the peasantry we shall be able to destroy Christianity.” In fact, he blamed the Jews for inventing Christianity. He also condemned Christianity for its opposition to evolution.

Hitler reserved special scorn for the Christian values of equality and compassion, which he identified with weakness. Hitler’s leading advisers like Goebbels, Himmler, Heydrich and Bormann were atheists who hated religion and sought to eradicate its influence in Germany.

In his multi-volume history of the Third Reich, historian Richard Evans writes that “the Nazis regarded the churches as the strongest and toughest reservoirs of ideological opposition to the principles they believed in.” Once Hitler and the Nazis came to power, they launched a ruthless drive to subdue and weaken the Christian churches in Germany. Evans points out that after 1937 the policies of Hitler’s government became increasingly anti-religious.

The Nazis stopped celebrating Christmas, and the Hitler Youth recited a prayer thanking the Fuhrer rather than God for their blessings. Clergy regarded as “troublemakers” were ordered not to preach, hundreds of them were imprisoned, and many were simply murdered. Churches were under constant Gestapo surveillance. The Nazis closed religious schools, forced Christian organizations to disband, dismissed civil servants who were practicing Christians, confiscated church property, and censored religious newspapers. Poor Sam Harris cannot explain how an ideology that Hitler and his associates perceived as a repudiation of Christianity can be portrayed as a “culmination” of Christianity.

If Nazism represented the culmination of anything, it was that of the nineteenth-century and early-twentieth century ideology of social Darwinism. As historian Richard Weikart documents, both Hitler and Himmler were admirers of Darwin and often spoke of their role as enacting a “law of nature” that guaranteed the “elimination of the unfit.” Weikart argues that Hitler himself “drew upon a bountiful fund of social Darwinist thought to construct his own racist philosophy” and concludes that while Darwinism is not a “sufficient” intellectual explanation for Nazism, it is a “necessary” one. Without Darwinism, there might not have been Nazism.

The Nazis also drew on the philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche, adapting his atheist philosophy to their crude purposes. Nietzsche’s vision of the ubermensch and his elevation of a new ethic “beyond good and evil” were avidly embraced by Nazi propagandists. Nietzsche’s “will to power” almost became a Nazi recruitment slogan. I am not for a moment suggesting that Darwin or Nietzsche would have approved of Hitler’s ideas. But Hitler and his henchmen approved of Darwin’s and Nietzsche’s ideas. Harris simply ignores the evidence of the Nazis’ sympathies for Darwin, Nietzsche, and atheism. So what sense can we make of his claim that the leading Nazis were “knowingly or unknowingly” agents of religion? Clearly, it is nonsense.

So in addition to the mountain of corpses that the God-hating regimes of Stalin, Mao, Pot Pot and others have produced, we must add the body count of the God-hating Nazi regime. The Nazis, like the Communists, deliberately targeted the churches and the believers because they wanted to create a new man and a new utopia freed from the shackles of traditional religion and traditional morality. In an earlier blog, I asked what is atheism’s contribution to civilization? One answer to that question: Genocide.

Share:
Vote on It:
Average Vote:
 
About The Author
Dinesh D'Souza's new book Life After Death: The Evidence is published by Regnery.
 
TOWNHALL DAILY: Sign up today and receive Townhall.com daily lineup delivered each morning to your inbox.
Simple math
Hitler = atheism

Tallil2long
Doing fine, hope you are too.

Looks like this topic went down in flames.

Belated response to lonestarblues
Hi yourself, neighbor! I hope you've been well.
No, discussion of logical fallacies doesnt' really get me excited, but since so many people have appealed to the Scotsman fallacy on this topic in the past, I thought it worthwhile.

Turn the other cheek
In reading the entire Bible for over 40 years I have found every answer I long to find from my deepest desire to understand how to find and walk uprightly with the Lord.

I have found Him to be so loving and kind and have heard His voice, matters not who will believe me, I have anyway.
On the other hand, I also found Him to be ready to rebuke me when I step over a line, and also have heard His rebuke, more than a few times.

I have learned from this as to why David himself said BOTH "Thy rod and thy staff comfort me"
I have found as much blessing is in rebuke when I am wrong as I have in a the oil of gladness when I have been right with the Lord.

A rebuke from God is a blessing, not a curse, His Judgments are more valuable than Gold.

So, this brings me to my present situation and the question of when a person like pharoah comes along, am I to turn the other cheek when he attacks me, or do I rebuke him as I did?

Here is the concern for what is right?
He did not slap me, so no need to turn the other cheek.
What he did was come on board filled with attitude dressing down Christians with rebuke to them, not the atheists or unbelievers.
He attacked Christians, using the bible to do that, as if none had ever read those very scriptures he came and fired away with at me.

It is not the scriptures he used that is wrong, its how he applied those scriptures in the wrong attitude, using them to pronouce judgment on me for being here on this thread defending what I believe in.

I believe he mis-handled the Word of God in doing that and deserved a strong rebuke.

I am open for the judgment from any believers comments as to my method in posting back to pharoah.

I just ask you to weigh out his attitude he came to this thread with, and my response to it.
Unbelievers, atheists and scorners need not say a word, it will not be listened to.
Unless your comments are in the right attitude, using just and righteous judgment.

Due to
My concern for not only believing in the Gospel, I have a deep desire to Do as Commanded of the Lord, and walk in the right Spirit in my use of words learned from biblical teaching.
(this due to a comment in an email I received [about pharoah] that made a point all Christians try and observe)
"Turn the other cheek"

This commandment is one I have struggled with in my desire to walk in the Spirit of God and have been tested more times than I can remember.

I was a fighter before I came to the Lord, and like some other men who sought God, as David, I am ready for warfare if and when its called for me to join in.

The time to turn the other cheek seems very clear to me in certain times.
But then there are times it is not at all clear, due to other teachings about rebuke, warnings, admonitions, and defending the Gospel.

I know full well that when I am defending my Faith in Jesus Christ, and an angry man slaps me, I am not to knock the chump out, but am to turn the other cheek. I willingly will suffer for the Gospels sake.
But am I to turn the other cheek when I am slugged by a thug attempting to rob me?
I do not think so and I will knock him out, if I can.

Continued...

Lions Tigers and Bears
Nostradamus style symbolism is less prophetic than scriptures. Ishmael by Daniel Quinn is more prophetic than anything I've read in the Bible.

Leopard, Bear and Dragon
The false religion produced initially horrors from Europe, as it is said:
(“And I saw a beast coming out of the sea.” “The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion.” “The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies.”)
Europe, by etymology and geography, is much related to oceans and seas. The national emblem of Germany is the leopard, that of Russia the bear, and that of most of the other European nations the lion. Also the lion is known for its mighty roar hence it may symbolize that the false religion uttered by the beast would reach very far.
......
Socialism, or Marxism, which roots in materialism and dictatorship, is the ultimate idolatry, the Antichrist system; it defies God and claims itself as the ultimate savior for mankind. It originated in Europe and created monsters like the German Nazis (National Socialist) and the Russian Soviets (Communist). Swiftness, strength, and arrogance notwithstanding, they were visible and could be defeated. They have been defeated, except that Russia maintains its military power.
Now a more vicious beast (hereafter called “the Regime”) was unleashed to effect the capitulation of mankind to the worship of Antichrist secular power:
(“Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth.” “He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast.”)”

Above is a quote from the article “Behold, 666 is here”. Details are available at
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/chow051007.htm

Synthesizer, hiya
Always great to see you posting links to other people's opinions. Have you started actually reading them?

liberal theologians helped Hitler
[ElizabethBennet on November 5, 2007]"a book by Gene Edward Veith called 'Modern Facism'....
Judeo-Christian tradition got in the way. Chritianity was acceptable as long as it was purged of the Bible. German liberal theologians paved the way by weakening the authority of Scripture."

theological disputes among German Protestants
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1129228612.1765 48.107730%40z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com

liberal spiritual folks
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1153496674.3810 20.211060%40p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com

the Nazi SS rejected Christianity
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=1175341802.025602.28 9620%40n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com

Multi-Pronged Role of Darwinian Thought in Shoah's Arrival
http://groups.google.com/group/talk.origins/msg/10ac5d963df a0eba?hl=en&

the gods of atheist fascists
[ElizabethBennet on November 5, 2007]"I have read a book by Gene Edward Veith called 'Modern Facism'.... The facsists, contends Veith, actually rejected the idea of a transcendent God and moral law replacing it with nature and community (the land, the people, the blood and the will)."

atheist Hitler preached a secular religion w/ race as 1 of its gods
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=1178805476.971439.53 680%40n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com

atheism-adherent Mussolini science experiment disproved existence of God of theism
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=1177901807.528939.16 0150%40n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com

exercise #2: parallels between Hitler and [Darwin]"fertile land capable of supporting numerous happy homes"?
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1137172777.8201 69.233390%40z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com

a claim: Hitler was a Christian
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=1131389424.486586.51840%4 0g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com

atheist Hitler and an Ethical Culture i.e. atheist individual on 'God'
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1136317045.7834 26.125490%40g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com

worship of one's self
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1155401734.7146 56.220870%40m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com

become like famous mass-killer atheists, and have others worship you
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1152629227.5819 32.229990%40s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com

Adolf fooled evangelicals Hillary trying
[heresyarch on November 5, 2007]"how easily the sheep can be duped into following a candidate that uses Christian phrases and language to garner support"

atheist Hitler fooled German Evangelical Church
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.abortion/msg/14a73c6f20d e1ad8?hl=en&

Mrs. Clinton's cross
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1167791215.036777.1310 20%40s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
http://tammybruce.com/2006/10/hillary_and_the_cros.php

atheist Hitler greatly admired Nietzsche
[drivebyposting on November 5, 2007]"Atheists do not all use Nietzsche and atheists do not all believe in evolution."

Meaning of "evolution"?
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-386md9F5lsv5cU1 %40individual.net

atheist Hitler greatly admired his fellow atheism-adherent Nietzsche
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1167247411.8286 87.13380%4073g2000cwn.googlegroups.com

Darwin: lower races eliminated by higher
Darwin to W. Graham
http://pages.britishlibrary.net/charles.darwin/texts/letter s/letters1_08.html
Down, July 3rd, 1881.
==
Remember what risk the nations of Europe ran, not
so many centuries ago of being overwhelmed by the
Turks, and how ridiculous such an idea now is! The
more civilised so-called Caucasian races have
beaten the Turkish hollow in the struggle for
existence. Looking to the world at no very distant
date, what an endless number of the lower races
will have been eliminated by the higher civilized
races throughout the world. But I will write no more,
and not even mention the many points in your work
which have much interested me. I have indeed
cause to apologise for troubling you with my
impressions, and my sole excuse is the excitement
in my mind which your book has aroused.
I beg leave to remain,
Dear Sir,
Yours faithfully and obliged,
CHARLES DARWIN.

1883 Darwin: "When two races, both low in the scale, are crossed the progeny seems to be eminently bad."
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1136399794.0770 73.47030%40z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com

Darwinists on killing off aborigines
[Critical Bill on November 5, 2007]"the colonial past of my own country, Britain, has more than its fair share of dark moments. Tasmanian aborigines were wiped out by people who considered themselves enlightened Christians"

1871 Darwin: [CD]"the civilised races of man"-- e.g. [CD]"the Caucasian"-- [CD]"will almost certainly exterminate and replace throughout the world the savage races"-- e.g. [CD]"the negro or Australian," as in Australian aborigine-- with the end result being [CD]"man in a more civilised state, as we may hope, than the Caucasian"
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407060404.71 1490be%40posting.google.com

Darwin: "the New Zealander... compares his future fate with that of the native rat now almost exterminated by the European rat"
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1135178729.7880 16.144250%40o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com

Trotha, in
Darwin, T.H. Huxley, Haeckel, Trotha, Goebbels, Hitler, Marx, O'Hair
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1133186735.6130 68.108090%40g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com

atheist Hitler on clergymen's drivel
[svirk on November 5, 2007]"Hitler was brought up Catholic and he expressed his Christianity throughout adulthood and increasingly so throughout his reign. Mein Kampf makes his Biblical beliefs clear and his book was widely read by the German people."

"Hitler was brought up Catholic"

Hitler encounters the T0E as a child: A Victory for Atheism
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1118403178.8608 54.170600%40g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
Stalin encounters the T0E in seminary: A Victory for Atheism
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1118511187.4895 82.241590%40g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com

"he expressed his Christianity throughout adulthood and increasingly so throughout his reign"

gullible believe atheist liar Hitler's lie that he a Xtian; 1934 Feuchtwanger
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.abortion/msg/a270a8a3545 ad0cb?dmode=source&hl=en
atheist Hitler fooled German Evangelical Church
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.abortion/msg/14a73c6f20d e1ad8?hl=en&

"Mein Kampf makes his Biblical beliefs clear"

atheist Hitler on the arrogant drivel of opinionated sky pilots/ clergymen
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1178220883.051154.1906 60%40n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com

Hitler: "our two Christian denominations...bother the negroes with
their preaching.... It would be better if they left this work alone"
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=1178805476.971439.53 680%40n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com

Hitler: "the Pan-German movement and its struggle against Rome....had not been led with the necessary cold ruthlessness"
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=1178279262.539263.21 0710%40u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com

"his book was widely read by the German people"

I recall reading in a book review that:
before Hitler assumed power, _MK_ sold poorly;
after Hitler assumed power, people were forced to buy the book.

Lumberjack7392
"BTW, you still do NOT have a modicum of intelligence."

Your assertion carries as much weight as mine: you are a pedophile.

The shrieking of The Happy Clappers is truly amusing. I guess it's because at some place in the murky waters of your delusion, you recognise that your god is being squeezed in to ever smaller gaps by science and rational thought. That must be why you're squeaking so loudly nowadays?

Get used to it folks, there's a new zeitgeist and you're going to be ever more marginalised with your bronze age superstitions.

Tallil2long, hiya!
Agreed on your rejection of the no true Scotsman fallacy in the case of Hitler's not a true Christian. That fallacy applies only, far as I know, to attempts to define some group in terms of what it is, not what it is not, and in terms too narrow to adequately cover all instances. If I say a true Christian is saved by faith and not works, that would be a fallacy since some define it as faith and works, and so on. Saying Hitler is not a true Christian leaves open-ended a myriad of ways in which he was not and Christians are.

(Discussing logical fallacies is never very exciting, is it. :-P )

familiar
So Hitler went around telling people what they wanted to hear to get elected.Hmmm? Hillary goes around telling people what they want to hear to get elected.Hmmm? Hitler was a socialist,Hillary is a socialist.Take the mustache off of Hitler and paste it on Hillarys picture.

A message for Motley Crue
Having posted on Townhall threads for three years or so, I think I can say that I've got on OK with most people here. Despite disagreeing on principle with the vast majority, I would even say that I like most people here, even though I have had plenty of cross words and fall outs. I even like Gunny, although you might not be able to tell that from our exchanges - but I enjoy sparring with him, and I'm sure he enjoys sparring with me too. As you can see from the earlier discussion with Inkling_Revival on this thread, polite disagreement is possible without resorting to the lowest common denominator, something that you seem utterly incapable of doing. If you think that your posts about me are going to put me off contributing, you are mistaken. However,having given it a bit of thought yesterday afternoon, I am now comfortable with you calling me "Sir". In fact, given that I am clearly your superior socially, intellectually, morally and in music taste, it is only right that you call me "Sir". Catch you soon I'm sure...

On "No True Scotsman"
Was Hitler a Christian, or is it the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy to say that he wasn't?

Well, not all people are Scotsmen. If one doesn't meet the definition of a Scotsman, then one is in fact NOT a true Scotsman. How does one define a Scotsman? By his claim to be one? No, rather by observation of his characteristics.

Did Hitler reflect the characteristics of a Christian? If you can't recall them, go back to the New Testament and see what Christ taught.

I can't help but wonder....
...when 'talent' scout writes: "Ec 5:3 - For a dream cometh through the multitude of business; and a fool's voice is known by multitude of words," whether he or pharoah have posted more words on this thread.

Or on this site, for that matter....

I will get right to the point pharoah
Ec 5:3 -
For a dream cometh through the multitude of business; and a fool's voice is known by multitude of words.

This part is written expressly for you.

"a fool's voice is known by multitude of words."

You have diarrhea of the mouth and is best emptied outside into the wind, and just talk yourself more silly than you are.

What you got next?
Pasting the entire bible here on TH?
Your arguing with the imaginations of your own mind silly man, as you address your posts to me anyway.
I read none of it and will not waste a second more with you.

silly topic.
Dinesh tilting at windmills and
wrting books trying to convert atheists with logic. And bleivers need such convincing anyway!!

Frankly its a boring and usless article and the discussion is much ado about nothing.

1. Hitler was not a Christian and few think so So, why bother arguing with those cranks who do?.

2. The word of God is spiritually discerned; it is foolishness to the world's "wisdom.(read: logic) And most importantly the worlds wisdom is foolishness to God.
(see 1st Corinthians chapter 3:11)


You cant convince fools of the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ with mans "logic" which has been depraved since the fall of man in the garden.

Moreover, Spiritual truths are spiritually discerned-not arrived at through "I gotcha" type "debates" between people who are both firmly fixed in their belief or unbelief.

"Faith cometh by hearing; and hearing by the Word of God! Nothing else! =

So, It really irritates me to see Christians squandering their precious and very limited time and energy arguing with, and writing books aimed at refuting fools and atheists.

Dinesh: get a hobby; get a wife, or better yet, do something meaningful with your life for goodness sakes.


part 3 for ts
"Yes, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But EVIL MEN AND SEDUCERS [Gk: ‘imposters’] SHALL WAX [grow] WORSE AND WORSE, deceiving, and being deceived" (II Tim. 3:13).

And just who is it that grows "worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived?" The men and women of the world? The pagans and heathens? Is this what Paul means? Of course not. These are the leaders of the Church.

"Preach the word; [the WHOLE Word of God]; be instant in season, out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine [Who? The world? The pagans? The atheist? Why they have never had sound doctrine in the first place] but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (II Tim. 4:2-4).

lesson for ts continued
"Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the LATTER TIMES some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking LIES IN HYPOCRISY; having their conscience seared with a hot iron" (I Tim. 4:1).

And this:

"This, know also, that IN THE LAST DAYS, perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent [without self-control], fierce [brutal], despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady [reckless], high-minded [haughty], lovers of pleasures more than [rather than] lovers of God; having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away… EVER learning, and NEVER able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (II Tim. 3:1-7).

Some christians naively believe paul and all these prophecies are speaking of the whole world, of mankind in general. Oh no: It is not the atheistic heathen world which has "departed from the faith," who "blaspheme God," who have a "form of godliness," or who have "turned away from such." Oh no. It is the HOUSE OF GOD which has done these things and continues to do them.

cont...

Another lesson TS
Listen carefully, for these prophecies are not directed toward the world of unbelievers, but to the Church of God:

"But in A GREAT HOUSE there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth and some to honor, and some to dishonor" (II Tim. 2:20).

Just what is this "great house" of which Paul speaks?

"But if I tarry long, that you may know how you ought to behave yourself in the House of God which is The Church of the Living God, the pillar and ground of the truth" (I Tim. 3:15).

The Apostle Peter tells us that this House of God definitely needs judging:

"For the time is come that JUDGMENT must begin at The House of God…" (I Pet. 4:17).

If the "House of God" needed judgment in the days of the Apostles, how much more judgment does it need today? And what did Paul prophesy would happen in this "GREAT House" in our day, "in the LATTER TIMES?"

cont....

get under your skin talent scout?
your faux-christianity and maturity in biblical matters has been exposed and this is EXACTLY why agnostics and atheists find christianity repulsive.

truth is, you have no beef with me - it is the scripture and Gods Word that offends you. it is your pagan traditions and sacred idols of your heart that i challenge that you are not equipped to defend.

Jesus Christ left the gentiles and samaritans alone - it was people like you, the "christians of the day" He upbraided. I think some athiests and agnostics can relate to Christ more so than they think...here are some quotes from Matt 23 alone:

"But WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES… FOR YOU SHUT UP THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN AGAINST MEN…

…THEY BIND HEAVY BURDENS and GRIEVOUS to be born, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but will not move them with ONE OF THEIR FINGERS

WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES… you DEVOUR WIDOW’S HOUSES… you shall receive the greater damnation.

WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES…

WOE unto you, ye BLIND GUIDES…

You FOOLS AND BLIND…

You FOOLS AND BLIND…

WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES! You… have omitted… JUDGMENT, MERCY, and FAITH…

You BLIND GUIDES, which strain out a gnat, and SWALLOW A CAMEL.

WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES… within they are full of EXTORTION AND EXCESS.

You BLIND PHARISEES…

WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES! You are FULL OF DEAD MEN’S BONES, and ALL UNCLEANESS… and HYPOCRISY and INIQUITY…

WOE unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, HYPOCRITES!… you are the children of them which KILLED the prophets. FILL YOU UP then the measure of your fathers.

You SERPENTS, you GENERATION OF SNAKES… you KILL AND CRUCIFY… you SCOURGE in your synagogues… Behold your house is left unto you DESOLATE"!!


Last days, full of mockers
The ridicule by fools means nothing to God or His Children when it comes to the things of the Lord.

It does not take being wrong about anything to get mocked by idiots, it just takes standing up for Jesus Christ.
Anyone more concerned about what some atheist thinks is a hypocrite anyway if he calls himself a Christian.
To be afraid of the mocking of a fool is the most cowardly and despicable attitude you have shown yet "pharoah" some name for a "Christian".

Get out of my face with your ignorance and for God's sake, leave off with trying to teach the bible.
You are a miserable teacher and need taught.

Don't have to be wrong to get mocked by fools.(atheists or agnostics or such)

Mt 27:29 -
And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!

Mt 27:31 -
And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.

Mr 15:20 -
And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple from him, and put his own clothes on him, and led him out to crucify him.

Lu 18:32 -
For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:

Lu 22:63 -
And the men that held Jesus mocked him, and smote him.

Lu 23:11 -
And Herod with his men of war set him at nought, and mocked him, and arrayed him in a gorgeous robe, and sent him again to Pilate.

You came with a bad attitude
Is your problem son, you came here looking for a fight.
And not to defend the faith, but to attack Christians

----------------------------
pharoah writes: 11:32 PM
talent scout
You reject the words of God and continue to cling to the traditions of men. I give you scripture and you come back with...
---------
ts:
You give me nothing son.
I been reading the scriptures since 1965, before you were born no doubt.
Now you are just here to make silly allegations and is not from God's Spirit.
------------


"Its been known for 2000 years Jesus Christ laid down His life by His own decision to do so."


pharoah writes:
As if what I give you from scripture contradicts or is a lie. People like you are why atheists and agnostics continue to ridicule christians - you give them nothing but square circles and contradictions.
----------
ts:
You are so mis-informed, and will leave you with it.
And Jesus Christ was ridiculed ...why?
You are full of a bad attitude sonny boy.
Nothing you got to say is worth reading.
---------
pharoah writes:
- I Tim. 1:9] TO BE DONE" (Acts 4:27 & 28).

---------

Go pray
You need it badly
You bring nothing but the very attitude of the enemy of all that is good and holy, so far.

The scriptures are right, but your attitude is wrong.
And you are not close to any authority with me sonny boy.
You sound like about 30 years old and think if you learned something, no one else in the world has ever known what you do.
You deceive yourself with such an attitude

Christians Schmishstians
God did not invent belief in itself. It's creations invented belief, whether it be in God, themselves, or others.
Take Mother Teresa for example. She expressed doubt in the existance of God much to the behest of the Vatican(organized religion). Yet, she lived one of the most pious lives imaginable. If any modern figure walked in the shoes of Jesus it was her, and even she has her critics. She was by no means an atheist, but she privately wrote of her doubts and who could blame her. I'll tell you who could, rich priests that did charitable things for people who kissed their holy butts. Mother Teresa was a true Saint. She didn't do any magic tricks, but her existance is a miracle and a testament to the kindness of Christianity. I don't doubt her faith, nor did she doubt anyone elses but her own.
Of all the people in this century that made a difference- Hitler,Mussolini,Stalin,Churchill,Roosevelt...etc, Mother Teresa is more powerful and decisive than a B-29 pilot that passed away recently(Gen. Paul Warfield Tibbets((pilot of the Enola Gay)). Two doubtful Christians with entirely different interpretations of doing what god would do. Both have my respect.
An Atheist might ask what the devil would do. So as to pass the info to a deist(hardy har har).
Observation of Religion is necessary. The things people do in its name are extra-ordinary, even super-natural. The atheists never shoulder the burden for what "God" decides. They just blame God for their burden and pray to be nuked or saved.
The Atheist moral code is a a simple one, the only thing that feeds it is hate. They are a very skilled people that realize the government can't be lobbied to do God's work. If the government tax money is trying to do the work of God through faith based initiatives and all of it's pious bureaucracy, then the Devil is winning.
Your weapon was built by the lowest bidder.

talent scout
You reject the words of God and continue to cling to the traditions of men. I give you scripture and you come back with...

"Its been known for 2000 years Jesus Christ laid down His life by His own decision to do so."

As if what I give you from scripture contradicts or is a lie. People like you are why atheists and agnostics continue to ridicule christians - you give them nothing but square circles and contradictions.

"Against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together, FOR TO DO WHATSOEVER [crucify Christ] THY HAND AND THY COUNSEL DETERMINED BEFORE [the world began - I Tim. 1:9] TO BE DONE" (Acts 4:27 & 28).

Like the jews in Pauls day, "you have a zeal for God but have no knowledge..." Unless and until you can resolve the scripture I gave you clearly indicating that God Himself WILLED, DELIVERED and DETERMINED Christ was to be crucified with your man-made doctrines then you should leave the heavy lifting to those who are a little more mature.

People are not to be hated
The bible teaches Christians do not war against Flesh and Blood.
But spiritual wickedness.

Eph 6:12 -
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

It does teach to HATE sin and unrighteousness, but understanding the cause of it is not arrived at by the intent of mankind, as an allotment.

He is born into a world not of his making, but is subject to higher powers even he does not understand himself.

And his nature makes him subject to it, thus the New Birth in Jesus Christ is NECESSARY to escape our very nature.



Hitler, or any evil man was not this worlds true enemy, he was a chosen vessel of the wicked one himself, and is the real enemy of all men.

Lu 14:26 -
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Now unless one is willing to pray and study to understand the meaning of the word used here in the above, in its context, he will be convinced its ok to hate ones own family members.
But then he must LOVE his enemies.

HIGHLY confusing ideas, if one does not pray and seek understanding of the words in context, just as the Scripture teaches to "love thy enemy"

Not taking about becoming emotionally attached as a man will to his children or his wife and family, or God.

No he was not.
Even if hitler claimed to be catholic that does not mean that he was Christian. Just because you say something does not mean that you are. Hilter used a lot of religion and most of it was of the atheist, evolutionist sort, and he also promoted a whole lot of pagan occultic type beliefs. Most of the ideas that he promoted such as eugenics, has no real place in a Christian worldview, but it is still heavy defended by atheistists and evolutionists today. Just do some research on Francis Galton. The idea of eugenics is theirs and is something that you will find that they actually will defend if stuck between a position of either defending it or rejecting it. Acceptance of ideas like eugenics would come pretty natural for someone who does not have a Christian worldview or even a worldview that honors all life. I saw some kind of documentary a while back that told about how hilter tried to take these people who had dwarfism and send them to the consentration camps to die. It was very sad. And that is just an example of just one type of person who was effected by the eugenics in Germany.

Adolf...

Was like Jim Jones... A warped, sexually frustrated, drug addicted, looney toon, with a psycho childhood to fall back on.

Christian? No

Liberal? Yes

Devout Agnostic
It is NOT true wisdom I seek...nor of which I speak!
It is much MORE I would dare...of which you say no care
I have seen "WISDOM" here when first appeared
and volleys exchanged and egos speared
No riddle is this for one who knows ...
Thyself...and in whos heart an ember glows.

My 15 yo daughter loves when I riddle with her and even she GET THIS! We are both eagerly awaiting your enlightenment.

Mack
No problem, it was a good question. If Christ said that, how can anyone even conceive of Hitler as Christian?

To be frank, and this is why I posted old Godwin's Law, I think the whole subject is moot, but it generates lots of sound and fury.

pharoah
You bring no lesson son,only an arrogant attitude is all.

Its been known for 2000 years Jesus Christ laid down His life by His own decision to do so.
And fulfilled the Will of God.

Why don't you climb down off your soapbox before the Lord smacks you off it.

lonestarblues
lonestarblues, "It's not. Never said it was."

You're right. I should have addressed it to all.

The word Love
pharoah writes: 10:17 PM
talent scout
judas, hitler, manson, osama, saddam, stalin, dr. evil....pick your favorite villain then find me scripture that says "love your enemies EXCEPT...."
----------------

Has many inflections in its meaning.
When the bible teaches to love God with everything in us, does anyone think Jesus means to show that same dedication and love to Judas? Or any you mention?


I love lots of things, none is on equal basis to the same degree of that emotion.

Is Jesus suggesting we have an emotional attachment to our enemies?
Hardly
He is speaking to not allow hatred in your heart for even an enemy.
Not to show any emotional attachment to such as Judas or Hitler.

Only a social or moral love to ward off being overtaken with hate is the admonition of the Lord for all enemies.
Do not allow them to own any part of your person, which giving them the hate they want, grants them a small power and ownership of a mans soul.



Catholics & Protestants resisted Hitler
"Dietrick Bonhoeffer - unlike many others inside Nazi Germany - did not remain silent; but instead, spoke from every pulpit possible resisting Hitler and the Nazi tyrany before the outbreak of war until his murder in 1945."

Churches resisted Hitler
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1128561942.4121 67.145530%40g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com

resistance to Hitler
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1146158953.1420 22.188680%40u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com

theological disputes among German Protestants; Nazi concentration camps for Catholics and Protestants
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1129228612.1765 48.107730%40z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com

talent
Mark 14:21, right, but the point you made was "You can rest assured God does not require anyone to love Judas" and that is answered by John 13:26-35.

In fact Mark 14:21 makes John 13:26-35 all the more powerful.

Like I said, I, lacking faith, what do I know?

How do you put them together into a whole message?

talent - another lesson for you...
Was Judas responsible for the death of Christ? He felt so guilty that he hanged himself shortly after the death of Christ (Matt. 27:5). But Judas could never have carried through with this deed if Satan himself had not been sent to "enter...into Judas" (Luke 22:3), hardening him to carry through with the task that Christ Himself had told Judas "that thou do, do quickly" (John 13:27). Christ in no way discouraged Judas. It took both Christ and Satan to get Judas to commit this dastardly act.

Who then was responsible for the greatest crime and evil of all time? Peter tells us who was really responsible for the death of Christ. We are told twice, so we cannot possibly misunderstand, even though the whole world is blinded: ".....Him [Christ] BEING DELIVERED BY THE DETERMINATE COUNSEL AND FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD ye have taken and by wicked hands have crucified and slain" (Acts 2:23). Was Christ slain by the Jews? NO! He was "delivered [to death] BY THE DETERMINATE COUNSEL AND FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD."

Did the other disciples see it this way? "Against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together, FOR TO DO WHATSOEVER [crucify Christ] THY HAND AND THY COUNSEL DETERMINED BEFORE [the world began - I Tim. 1:9] TO BE DONE" (Acts 4:27 & 28).

Put that in your theological pipe....

Cornwall's bogus picture of future Pope
"Recommended reading: Hitler's Pope by John Cornwell"

Cornwall's bogus picture of future Pope
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1178676902.218022.4971 0%40p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com

Mack
"How on earth is Hitlers life consistent with Jesus' words?"

It's not. Never said it was. Not sure where you got that idea. My view on Hitler was he claimed Christianity only to use it for his own egotistical thirst for power, as I said in agreement with JAMES just above. Just as Stalin used antitheism, just as Bin Laden and other Islamofascists use Islam. Religion is not evil, atheism (lack of faith) is nothing, people are evil.

sophia-- think hypocrisy is immoral?
[sophia on November, 05, 2007]"Sounds a bit like a certain gay bashing element of the Republican party!"

Do you think hypocrisy is immoral?

What are 4 actions you consider immoral?

In your view, has Bill Clinton done anything immoral?
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1164286059.6945 53.136640%40h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com

lonestarblues
lonestarblues"
Your quote from Jesus was:
"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

How on earth is Hitlers life consistent with Jesus' words?

Read on lonestar
Mark 14:21
The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

talent scout
judas, hitler, manson, osama, saddam, stalin, dr. evil....pick your favorite villain then find me scripture that says "love your enemies EXCEPT...."

do you believe the words in your bible? do you think that judas had a free will NOT to betray Christ and render Gods plan for salvation and thousands of years of prophesy useless? is god bbqing judas in hells oven now?

do you believe Christ hated or loved those who were buffeting Him, spitting on Him, flogging and scourging Him when He looked over them and prayed "father forgive them for they know not what they do?" do you believe God didn't honor Christs prayer and is bbqing them now over spits in hell?

where are the jews that hitler threw in ovens - are they going through even more fire that burns perpetual flesh and melts perpetual eyeballs now because they died a terrible horrifying and painful death not believing in christ or saying the 15 second sinners prayer? is hitler there with them now?

square circles my friend. your faith is nothing but contradictions and quite ineffective. you despise the word of God (Love thine enemies, resist ye not evil, turn the other cheek, etc., etc. etc.)


pharoah
pharoah says, "there is nothing new under the sun. if you cannot see the similarities between then and now well, you are destined to repeat them."

I assume you are comparing the Nazi's slaughter of six million jews to the slaughter of the millions in the womb in our country. I agree abortion is an atrocity.

talent
"You can rest assured God does not require anyone to love Judas"

Seems to me Jesus, who chose him, did--of course, what do I, a mere atheist, know...

John 13:26-35:

Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I will give this morsel of bread when I have dipped it.” So when he had dipped the morsel, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. Then after he had taken the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, “What you are going to do, do quickly.” Now no one at the table knew why he said this to him. ...When he had gone out, Jesus said, “Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in him. If God is glorified in him, God will also glorify him in himself, and glorify him at once. Little children, yet a little while I am with you. You will seek me, and just as I said to the Jews, so now I also say to you, ‘Where I am going you cannot come.’ A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”