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Monday, May 07, 2007
Dinesh D'Souza :: Townhall.com Columnist
Taking aim at God, and missing
by Dinesh D'Souza
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When the French scientist Pierre Laplace first explained his nebular theories to Napoleon, the emperor posed to him a single question. “Where is there room in all this for God?” To which Laplace famously replied, “I have no need for that hypothesis.”

Christopher Hitchens invokes Laplace’s reply in his new book God Is Not Great. In a sense, Laplace supplies the central argument for the kind of naturalism that Hitchens espouses. The world can be entirely understood on the basis of natural laws and events. Why call upon God when he is entirely superfluous in order to make sense of the world?

As Hitchens’ title suggests, his argument goes further than this. God is not merely unnecessary, he is “not great.” The subtitle is even harsher, “How Religion Poisons Everything.” Everything? Yes, Hitchens would have us believe that whatever religion touches it corrupts and inflames.

Hitchens is an iconoclast, as is indicated by one of his earlier books, a harshly critical biography of Mother Teresa called The Missionary Position. While I found that book quite foolish and distasteful, I found myself applauding some of Hitchens’ pungent rhetoric in this one. There is plenty of room for even Christians to be outraged by some of the things going on in the churches—the blatant money-grubbing, the jaw-dropping hypocrisy, the sex scandals that would make even Hugh Hefner blush—and Hitchens is unsparing in his expose of these offenses.

When Hitchens turns to larger political conflicts, however, his arguments droop. He strains to show that the clash between the Catholics and the Protestants in Northern Ireland is motivated by religion, without answering the objection that the two groups seem to be fighting not about doctrine but about land and political autonomy. He baptizes the warfare in the Balkans as “religious” rather than “ethnic” cleansing, even though these feuds are rooted in tribe and blood. Religious differences are only incidental.

Hitchens implausibly suggests that if messianic rabbis and mullahs could be kept out of the Palestinian conflict, the issue would have been settled “decades ago.” As a mater of fact, both Zionism and Palestinian nationalism are largely secular movements and the conflict has always been based on a simple, non-religious question: who owns this land? Hitchens even seeks to portray the Shia-Sunni conflict in Iraq as a clear strike against religion. In reality the theological differences between Shia and Sunni are non-existent and the real basis of the sectarian warfare is entirely political and power-driven.

The title of Hitchens’ book is derived from the Muslims. It is a negation of the Arabic slogan “Allahu Akbar” which means “God is great.” Hitchens is, of course, right about the pernicious way in which the radical Muslims use religion to justify their murderous acts of terrorism. But Hitchens never shows that Islam itself is the problem. Most of his anti-religious polemic is in any case directed at Christianity, and here Hitchens is equally ineffective. He doesn’t even ponder the central question raised by his title. If he’s right that all religions are false and God is a figment of the human imagination, why should imaginary things cause so many problems? Dreams and unicorns don’t “poison everything” so why should deities?

Hitchens seeks to place himself squarely in the scientific tradition, arguing that the operations of the universe can be worked out using the theories of Darwin and Einstein and “no divine plan, let alone angelic intervention, is required. Everything works without that assumption.” This is a serious point, which gave Napoleon pause and it should us as well. But here too Hitchens does not even begin to sustain Laplace’s proposition.

Modern science has discovered that the universe, far from existing eternally, had a beginning. Not only matter but space and time itself came into existence around 15 billion years ago in the fiery burst that scientists term the Big Bang. The laws of physics themselves originated at that point, and those laws were inoperative “before” the founding moment. So what is the secular explanation for how the universe and its laws came into existence? Is there a natural explanation for nature’s own origin? If so, what is the evidence for it? Hitchens supplies no such theory and no supporting evidence. His rejection of the God hypothesis seems nothing more than an assertion of atheist dogma.

In recent decades, scientists have found innumerable ways in which our universe—not just our planet but the entire universe—is narrowly tailored to permit life. Change the variables of nature by an infinitesimal amount and this would be a very different universe without observers to perceive and study it. As physicist Freeman Dyson puts it, with an intended mystical touch, the universe behaves as though it knew we were coming! So why are the laws constructed in such a way that we are here to discover them? It’s possible that there is a convincing natural explanation, but Hitchens certainly does not produce one. Once again the God hypothesis seems unavoidable.

Now consider man, undoubtedly a product of natural selection, but also possessing qualities such as the ability to tell right from wrong that are unexplained by Darwin and his followers. Neo-Darwinists have labored hard to offer an evolutionary basis for altruism, explaining parental love and loyalty to one’s own tribe in terms of Richard Dawkins’ “selfish gene.” It’s an ingenious attempt, but it doesn’t account for purely unselfish acts, as when a fellow gives up his seat in the bus to a perfect stranger, or when Mother Teresa devotes herself to improving the lives of the destitute in India. In what way do those actions benefit the selfish genes?

Further, altruism is only one aspect of morality. There is within us all a moral law that speaks to us gently but firmly, urging though not compelling us to do what is right, even when such a course conflicts with our self-interest. If natural selection cannot account for this moral law, where does it come from? I am not saying that science will never explain this, I am saying that science cannot explain it now. It seems much more reasonable, based on existing evidence, to believe that moral laws derive from a divine legislator than to embrace Hitchens’ promissory atheism: one day we’ll figure out a natural way to account for all this.

Thanks to the astounding discoveries of modern science, I think the God hypothesis has a lot more going for it today than it did in the eighteenth century, when Laplace presented his theories to Napoleon. The appeal of Hitchens is not his scientific rationalism (he is utterly out of his element here) but rather his witty truculence. Hitchens, like Mencken, seems to despise religion, although Mencken was at least candid enough to title one of his books “Prejudices.” I like Hitchens, whom I’ve known for more than two decades, and I wish we had him in the camp of the believers. His latest tract is, well, let’s just say it’s “not great.”

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About The Author
Dinesh D'Souza's new book Life After Death: The Evidence is published by Regnery.
 
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Perhaps we should all pray
for Mr. Christopher Hitchens?

What?
"In reality the theological differences between Shia and Sunni are non-existent and the real basis of the sectarian warfare is entirely political and power-driven."

How does this quack get away with commenting about Islam so much? He obviously knows nothing about it to make such a stupid statement. Shia and Sunni consider each other heretics. I guess he's never heard of the Hadiths.

He also needs to look up the word "sectarian" in the dictonary. He doesn't seem to know what that means, either.





The God that hinders science...
...at times, keeps those scientists safe to argue their case again next year. And what besides God's example of love gives any of us the peace and safety to even do science? There's no life of the mind if you're always looking over your shoulder.

To the question
Where is there room for God?

God makes him own room. No need to worry about that one.

Pseudo sectarian intellectuals
Whether its the agnostics or the atheists, they always 'know' what the truth is. And their first thought is to blame all the religions of the world. In their warped 'natural' morality, they see 'man' as alright and 'religion' as all wrong.

A careful study of history doesn't necessarily see religion producing the world conflicts, whether between tribes or races - with one exception: Islam.

Fights for land, plunder, slaves, power etc. have been with us for tens of thousands of years. Religions, pagan or otherwise, have been utilized in cases to galvanize the forces by accentuating the differences, but 'religion' per se was hardly the motivation for the moves to conquer.

But then came Islam, a fairly recent arrival in the panoply of the world's religions (liberalism is an even more recent arrival). Islam was founded by an illiterate opportunist who gained an 'education' one could acquire through widespread travel and human exposure. He could see the value of cobbling together selective beliefs of existing creeds that might be useful in uniting other diparate and hostile tribal peoples.

With a modest base of supporters and limited initial successes, these in turn produced momentum that produced more successes. Soon it was able to sweep all resistence before it in the name of its god: Allah. It even adopted clever tactics: an enemy killed is not useful: allow them to convert, pay a tax, become a slave or else be killed. Fight and die for its spread and you are guaranteed heaven - and the virgins.

An aside: I wonder what good virgins are in a non-corporial existence; or, for that matter, where do all the virgins come from? Hey, don't start asking questions - just kill and die.

Islam is the only religion that was invented for the sole purpose of conquering, plundering and enslaving - it is written right in their Koran.

Every other religion, in and of themselves, have never been the problems of human conflict with the exception of Islam. Every other religion simply fought to defend itself, is believers lives and its civilization.

And the amazing thing is that most of these pseudo intellectual, agnotic/atheists are the first to dump on Christians, who have spread the word, for the most part, non-violently, while they give Islam a clean pass (religion of peace, indeed!). I guess their main problem is that every other religion and civil society didn't simply surrender to it.

"...all organized religions have promised such things in the past, and they have been the prime movers of human suffering here on Earth." Handy

Considering the tempering that the moral restraints of religion, primarily the Judeo/Christian, have added to human behavior, I shudder to think where man would be without religion. I ask you, Handy: whose credibility is really at issue?

Reliigion and Conflict/irresponsibility
While I remain a Christian [Reformed/Presbyterian] and tend to dismiss people like Hitchens, I believe D'Souza errs in trying to take the religion out of the Irish conflict. We need to admit that we Christians do indeed fight over religious matters--and certainly at times, if not always, displease God in doing so. We are sinners on whom God is still at work; not finished saints.

But the arguments about the Thirty Years' War and continuing Irish troubles hold no water. In one short century, Hitchens' own naturalist brethren managed to wrack up more people killed for the wrong belief, exiled, or otherwise ruined than suffered for the wrong kind of Christianity or none at all in the 15 centurie between the conversion of Constantine and Ruggles v. New York (1811--when the NY Supreme court upheld imprisonment for blasphemy against Jesus Christ). A political scientist formerly at U of Hawaii neamed Rudy Rummel actually did the math on the 20th centuryy's bloodletting.

A large problem with naturalism is that it is morally irresponsible. Did you ever notice that whenever the evils of a secular age are exposed, the naturalists blame it on the Christian past? Why was Hitler Anti-Semitic? Blame it on Martin Luther, and never mind the crowing of people like GB Shaw before about how 19th century science had routed religious obscurantism. Why were American Souutherners racist? Blame it on the Curse on Canaan in Genesis 9; and never mind Wilberforce or that contless theologians from Ephrem Syrus to Calvin had read the curse and saw only the destruction of the Canaanites by Joshua without reference to Blacks--or that the first use of evolutionary thought in America was to scientifically "prove" the inferiority of non-whites. Why did the Soviet experiment fail? The poor, stupid, Slavic Uentermensch remained haunted by the Eastern Orthodox Church (an,d by the way, all you who never bowed to Staln's whiskers, you're all racists). This moral irresponsibility runs all the way through every anti-religious polemic I have ever seen.




A Man without a God or an Ideology
Poor Hitchens! He's looking for a god that will not fail him, like Communism did. Why would anyone put any credence to his rants about one of the great religions that, in effect, built the modern world when he was so totally bamboozled by murderous charlatans like Lenin and Stalin?

Handy
You know, you are quite the cynic. Faith in itself has nothing to do with religion. One can have faith and not have religion, so get over yourself. I know that tomorrow you will still be trolling here and hope that one day you will just go away...I have faith! See, it had nothing to do with religion...just a wish and a determination that if I believe, maybe it will happen.

Ever been to a county fair
and watched a demonstration of sheepdogs at work?

Isn't it interesting how the shepherd uses his dogs to keep the sheep focused on him instead of wandering off to be injured or eaten by predators?

question
I have one question for the religionists. Explain the non-natural purpose for the Onchocerciasis parasite.

Faith is rooted in personal experience
As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. That is what Joshua said and that is what I say today. I have plenty of personal experience of the goodness of God, and so do all the members of my family, and none of them can be explained by science and anybody who sneers "coincidence" can ... think again.

When I was driving back from Le Mans with an agnostic friend, we had lots of time to discuss the important things in life as people do once they have finished discussing whether anybody will ever beat the Audis (Run with the Bulls, Swim with the Sharks, Race with the Germans). We had a discussion about whether or not God intervenes in human lives individually and instead of meandering into abstracts, I challenged him to come up with a few examples of times when he'd experienced a miracle he could not explain. After denying he'd ever had such an experience, he came up reluctantly with several examples. The chief one was a time when they were about to have their house forclosed on, and there was no recourse they could turn to. The Saturday before the axe was going to fall, they won just exactly the amount of money they needed to keep their home. And they have never won a single cent since that day. Other events that indicated to him that someone was watching over him were similar to my own. While he was not converted to a belief that God does intervene in individual lives by this discussion, he was now givene the opportunity to reflect on whether it's useful to blame God for all the bad things and never reflect on any of the times He has saved our individual tuchis without our even having to ask Him. (My personal experiences are too many to explain, but three separate times He has prevented me from being run over by racing cars, and once by such a slim margin that I can still grow faint when I think of it.)

Because Mr. Hitchins would rather jeer at God than consider Him on a personal level, he's a hopeless case to me but not to God. Someone will get through to him someday and I pray it will be soon.

Political atheism?
The following is an excerpt from http://voice.townhall.com/ on which the concept of political atheism is discussed.
---
Consider that America is 80% Christian but a 50/50 country based on political affiliation. Even assuming that the entire 20% of America that is non-Christian leans leftwards (a questionable assumption) that means that 30% of those who lean to the left are likely to be Christians. Another way of stating this is "At least 30% of our voters are religious-leftists".

Of course, a good follow-on question would be "But are they leftists because of their social or economic views?"

Since Christian principles are usually at odds with the Leftist social viewpoint, does this mean that religious leftists in America lead with their redistributionist economic views?

Unless there is a flaw in the above reasoning, conservative economists (e.g. Dr. Thomas Sowell) should be given a lot more air time by Republicans seeking to 'convert' religious leftists to the conservative cause. It would seem that conservative economists would have a much larger 'addressable market' for new voters than conservative spokesmen of the Jerry Falwell variety?

I mean, with 30% of the electorate up-for-grabs, talk about a vote rich environment! Also, from a sheer entertainment point-of-view, wouldn't you like to see Dr. Sowell wipe the floor with Paul Krugman in a debate on economics?

Narrow-minded Atheists

Why do atheists proclaim that anyone who believes in Jesus Christ is a rube, mentally deficient, or some other label implying that the atheist has superior intelligence because they don’t believe in God?

Atheists – What have you personally discovered or verified scientifically? Does your knowledge not come from a book or teaching based on someone else’s work? In truth, your experiential knowledge is very limited. Therefore, your personal “religion” of atheism or scientific enlightenment is almost entirely based on FAITH.

Most of the body of scientific knowledge is accepted by Christians. And we, as you, accept it on faith. What is not accepted by Christians are those ideas that conflict with what God has revealed to us.

The God of the universe chose to reveal himself in certain ways. Since it is by faith, there will be no scientific proof forthcoming because there isn’t one. When you create your own universe you can reveal yourself through logic if that’s how you want it.

Having been an atheist for 40 years before God saved me, I can definitely say looking back that that was the ignorant period of my life. Living solely by faith is only required for a short time. As you experience God he will reveal more of himself to you. A positive feedback system allowing you to grow in Jesus Christ.

Finally, it is not a Christian’s job to try and convert you. Only God can do that.

So, who has the narrow mind?

Another article ..
An article with the title:

If "Jesus was no leftist" why are so many of his followers seduced by Socialism?

may be found at:
http://voice.townhall.com/g/a68d177a-9aa6-4dd2-88da-b7d3053c4ccd

Why we need Political Atheism
An article with the above title may be found at:

http://voice.townhall.com/g/85d7133b-8b08-4bd9-9466-e5466265066a

Opiate of the masses
A conservative political web site tirelessly promoting religion makes you think Marx had a point. In America it's a strategy prefected by Nixon and Reagan. Pretend Republicans are the party of Christianity and you get lots of votes.

handy
Mr. Hitchens did say that there is no Creator. I've heard several of his interviews on the subject of his book. He is an atheist.
Liberalgoodman-sometimes it's better to keep your mouth shut. You just took all the doubt away.

DA the answer is: The fall of man.
The following is just one of the answers to your supposed riddle posted at 6:58a.m. Onchocerciasis (river blindnees caused by parasites) and all the other diseases and problems of man. The result of our sinful and fallen nature.

I suppose, we could have been made to live our lives as robotized creatures, instead of having free will. Free will to do good, or bad.

I'm sure with time, or insight from another reader, that more reasons will be exposed.


D'Souza says,
"Hitchens is an iconoclast."

Is that the same thing as a pompous jerk, because in all of his TV appearances he comes across that way?

liberalgoodman, the GOP is the party ...
of political power as are the Democrats.

Anyone who imputes other motives to our political parties is due for a rude awakening. While the Christian right licks its wounds from dealing with the Bush Administration and a Republican Congress, the Democrats are preparing a similar disappointment for the secular left.

My daddy told me that anyone who believes a campaign promise is a fool. My 67 years have proven him to be a wise man.

Handy--get your facts correct
"There is no credibility in faith, although faith's adherents say that they are always infallible. God's spokesmen took an awfully long time to admit Gallileo was right afterall, didn't they?"

Galileo was not right though...at least not completely right. While he was correct to propose that the earth orbited the sun, his technical description was way off. In his arrogance, he proposed his theory as fact, which, without proper proof, no self-repecting scientist would do. He was "condemned" because he (a non-religious Protestant) was telling the Church that they were interpretting the Bible wrong. A panel of his peers (Jesuit astronomers and other scientists) rejected his hypothesis based on his lack of evidence.

There is a reason why Nicolas Copernicus and Johannes Kepler, who believed the same exact things (and published their work for peer-review among Jesuit circles) were not "tried": their ideas were mere proposals, and they understood that until the positions of the stars can be shown to change, their ideas were to remain as such. Galileo never proved that the stars changed position, thus his theory was unproven. It wasn't until the stars' relative positions (from here on earth) could be shown to change that the scientific community, and the Church, accepted heliocentrism.

A side note: Copernicus, Kepler, and Galileo were not Catholic, yet they submitted all their work to Catholic scholars, because they were open to scientific inquiry. Remember, it was a Catholic monk who discovered genetics (Gregor Mendel with his pea plants). Christianity has been open to science since its begining. Augustine (5th Century) encouraged science to explain God's world, as did Abelard, Aquinas, and numerous others.

Marx and his legacy of 100,000,000+
Liberalgoodman, thanks for taking the covers off, and exposing your acceptance of the mass murders committed by Marx's followers. All in the name of political, economics and theological control.

Your point was well taken.

I'm glad to see there
are posters here who know that religion and science are not necessarily anathema to one another. It is ridiculous to think otherwise.

Equating anything to do with religion and political parties is a joke.

http://peppermintsplace.townhall.com
New article called "Racism and Immigration" on my blog for anyone who would like to comment.

nt250
The original Shia-Sunni dispute was political, over who was to inherit the caliphate. Whether it was to stay in the bloodline of Mohammad (Shia) or go to an elected successor (Sunni). Over the centuries the division has inevitably led to theological differences, as neither respects the authority of the other, but in its origins the debate is a purely political debate. It only assumes the aspect of a theological debate as Islam was a theocratic state, so all political issues became theological issues as well.

Diversion
Look the country is being assaulted, the government has lost the support of the people and the troops are being abandoned in the desert and here we go the neo cons must try and change the subject back to god, guns and/or gays. Hate to tell you folks this - won't work this time

Moral_Majority
It's best to leave sarcastic humor to those that can pull it off. Thank goodness that you laughed at your own attempt, as it's fairly certain others found your post quite lame.

Gee, just to think that we're both related. Shiver me timbers.


Atheism is not good
Hitchens' four “irreducible objections” to religious faith are indeed "reducible".

See http://christianskepticism.blogspot.com/2007/05/atheism-is-not-good_01.html

2 cents
toomuchsense

-DA the answer is: The fall of man.-

This is only true if you except that both the OT and the NT are the literal truth. One cannot, while being honest with themselves, accept this. In the OT, god says that he is loving yet jealous and cruel. A clear contradiction. Also, the OT demonstrates how the judeo-islamo-christian god is blood thirsty and violent. In the OT, god commits multiple atrocities including the genocidal destruction of multiple cities (gideon etc). In the end, god is either cruel and violent or inexistent and we must depend on our fellow man for peace and not on ridiculous superstitious ideology.

audir10
-Because Mr. Hitchins would rather jeer at God than consider Him on a personal level, he's a hopeless case to me but not to God. Someone will get through to him someday and I pray it will be soon.-

You have obviously not read the book. Mr Hitchens does not jeer at 'god' but at the pitifully naive believers of this imaginary entity.

Moral majority
They also had Seth. And Abel didn't marry anyone as he was dead.

I understand the point you are trying to make, but you should get your doctrine straight if you are trying to mock the believers.

Its Magic!
I'm tired of the acertion that atheist don't have a theory of how we (the universe) got here. The fact is, we don't know what we don't know. But to simply say because we don't know, that some magical creator simply created everything is just intellectually immature.
Also, to say that its seems the universe was taylored for us is just stupid. If we were all 4-legged, two-headed creatures breathing nitrogen you could say the same thing.
Hitch is moslty correct in his book. To say that some God spoke to a special person who had someone else write it down (check Hitch's analysis of Mormonism, its devastating)is just so much baloney. I get man's need to have faith but not his unbelievable gullibility.

Quick edit!
You wrote, "There is plenty of room for even Christians to be outraged by some of the things going on in the churches..."

What about odd Christians? You mentioned "even Christians." What about the odd ones? Oh!

Maybe you split the preposition. You meant to say, "even for Christians to be outraged..."

THAT makes more sense.

Adam and Eve
Some of us believe that the story of Adam and Eve is Biblical allegory. In one interpretation (there are several), Adam stands for the body and Eve the mind. In another interpretation, Adam is the Ego and Eve is Emotion. In any case, after encountering Temptation (the serpent), Eve convinces Adam to taste the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, whereupon Man develops self-awareness, including his spiritual side.

Fundamentalist Christians are none too keen on this view, because it tones down or eliminates the concept of Original Sin. No Original Sin, no need for Salvation from it, no need for a Savior. Tough to fill all those pews and collection plates with no fear of a Hell that involves fire and brimstone and how to escape it.

I haven't read Hitchens' new book, yet, but I suspect he's harder on organized religion than spirituality.

Some of us believe we are on a quest for spiritual growth and an awakening that can be achieved without adhering to a particular religion. In fact, it can be argued that organized religion is often an impediment to spiritual growth because it provides overly simplistic pat answers, and arguably incorrect answers, to spiritual queries that we each have to work out for ourselves.

Organized religion would often have one believe that he cannot have direct contact with the Creator unless he attempts to use some intermediary, while some of us would tell you that we are all inseparable from creation and therefore divine. In other words, we are spiritual beings having a human experience.

moral_majority Your Saved

Where did you read that Abel was married or had children? Although the Bible does not say, Cain either married one of his sisters or a female in one of the succeeding generations.

Oh, did you think that maybe he married a monkey or something?

Guess this was the only thing keeping you from becoming a Christian!

moral majority
Must've just taken a philosophy final.
Revolutionary points you've presented, really.

Thanks for the correct history, mrteachersir. Every atheist numbskull shouts about Galileo and the flat earth when attacking religion for inhibiting scienctific advancement. List of great religious scientists: Copernicus, Kepler, Newton, Pascal, Gauss, Kelvin, AND Galileo.

And if these were the Beautiful Minds of their times, think of all the Pretty Minds that were their contemporaries. The hard-working almost-geniuses. For every Beautiful Mind, there are probably 10 Pretty Minds, and for every Pretty Mind, there are probably 100 Cute Minds, and for every Cute Mind, there are probably 1000 Look Good When You're Drunk Minds. I've extended this idiotic analogy far enough, but it makes a point.
As much as some would like to present people like Galileo as radical exceptions, a Dark Ages mentality does not produce world-changing thinkers. Just look at Modern Day Islam.

Galltegfa?
What are you talking about? Original sin is at the heart of Catholic doctrine, but Catholics do not interpret the Bible literally.

Why religion? Are humans evil?
This is the core question, and if Hitchens didn't deal with it, the argument in his book is the weaker for it:

"He doesn’t even ponder the central question raised by his title. If he’s right that all religions are false and God is a figment of the human imagination, why should imaginary things cause so many problems? Dreams and unicorns don’t “poison everything” so why should deities?"

Here is my answer:

I am a philosophical agnostic. I'm not religious at all. I've not read Hitchens' book. From the various comments here, I'm assuming Hitchens is arguing that religion--any and all of them--is inherently evil.

I believe that religious belief and mystical experiences are neurological in nature, that evolutionary pressures have selected for the kinds of brains that can generate such beliefs and feelings--at varying levels of intensity, of course.

The best explanation I've ever read of this is in Stewart Elliot Guthrie's book, "Faces in the Clouds." He argues that we humans are by nature pattern seekers. We seek and find meaningful patterns everywhere, including ones that don't exist.

Why? To survive. He offers the example of the hiker spotting a bear in the woods. If the hiker believes that the pattern he sees in the leaves and branches is a bear and he is wrong, he will merely look skittish and embarrass himself in front of his fellow hikers. If there really is a bear and the hiker fails to see it, he won't live to hike another day.

So, Guthrie argues, that when we seek patterns, we tend to aim high. We really focus in on patterns of humans or human-like beings. Tree spirits, storm spirits, bear spirits, and then as our ancestors developed larger and more powerful societies, they modeled larger and more powerful spirits on them, and named them gods--and then God.

If Guthrie is right, and I believe he is, then we humans are inherently religious. We experience mystical states and think religious thoughts because the pattern-seeking bases for these acts helped all of our successful ancestors survive.

And if Hitchens is right in believing that religious is inherently evil? Well, just add Hitchens and Guthrie together, stir well, bake at 350 degrees for one hour, and you'll get "humans are inherently evil."

Naturally, I don't believe this is true. I reject the recipe. I believe that the bad tendencies within religion can be and have been meliorated by free, democratic, individualistic societies--by America, for example. Even though I'm not religious, I don't believe that the Religious Right is about to impose a theocracy on America (nor could the Religious Left hope to impose their socialistic theocracy on us.)

In Minnesota, religious people go to church, sing praises to God, pray, go home, and then cheer for the Vikings and the Twins.

In short, they're perfectly nice, ordinary folks, not evil at all.

Religion supercharges some evil tendencies in people (and some good tendencies, I'll admit). But it's not the be-all and end-all of life, the universe, and everything, as--and this is surprising and ironic--certain atheists believe.



moral majority
No one likes teenagers.

Iggles
I'm not Catholic, so I have no idea how Catholics interpret the Bible. My point is that any given organized religion most likely has a set of principles that is based on a particular interpretation of the Bible which prevents adherents of that religion from exploring other metaphysical possibilities.

For example Christians often pray "through Jesus," Catholics, through Mary, etc. And to properly approach Jesus, Mary, or whoever, one must practice according to the tenents of that religion, before he has access to the Creator.

So, the keepers of the organized religion make themselves the gatekeepers to something some of us believe we already possess: direct contact with the Creator.

some good some bad
D'Souza is right to make the distinction between disagreements in the name of religion, and religious disagreements. Much fighting in the name of religion seems to be the kind of tribalism which would go on even without the religion.

His use of C.S.Lewis' moral argument fares less well because he seems to have a magical idea of how evolutionary traits work. Because such physically developed traits are not fundamentally rational, it is not surprising that they would be clumsy and so operate according to general rules that have a survival benefit, but in particular cases where they do not. It is hard to see our moral compasses as going beyond what one would expect from evolution. Although the question of what morality is, is a deeper one. The question of why our instincts are as they are seems quite capable of evolutionary explanation.

Atheists and the Kingdom of God...

From the parable of the wheat and tares we know that there are two groups of men: the sons of the kingdom represented as wheat and the sons of the wicked one represented as tares. [Matthew 13] Every human institution including the visible church will be impure; that is, it will include both tares as well as wheat. It is foolish to argue that since the visible church is imperfect, then Christianity is not truth.

No one can hold that there is imperfection in Jesus Christ because His resurrection declares to the world that God has accepted His atoning sacrifice. The world continues because Christ is sowing the good seed through the earthen vessels He raises up to declare the good news that the grace of God has come.

The Bible declares that the fool has said in his heart that there is no God. What then does the atheist know about the kingdom of God? It is foolishness to him; he is unable to understand the spiritual since he is blinded by his own sin. Like blind men leading the blind they speak of what they do not understand. The words of Christ are ignored. Did He not say that men must be born of the Spirit in order to see the kingdom of God?

The only sure guide to the kingdom are the words of Jesus Christ. Do not trust the words of men or the visible church, but test everything by the Scriptures. Hold fast to what is true. It is easy to identify the fools. They openly declare themselves atheists. It is more difficult to identify the tares since they can be mistaken for wheat.

Religious Fanaticism and Fundamentalism
Hitchins is correct that religious fundamentalism and fanaticism are responsible for a lot of the mischief and misery in the world. They undermine democratic values and governments; they put women in the back of the bus; they subvert education; they foster hatred and discrimination toward homosexuals; and they encourage bloody conflicts instead of peace.

On Gallileo
Handy is right as far as he goes. Both Copernicus and Gallileo were catholics, as was Giordano Bruno who was burned at the stake for arguing that the sun was just one of many solar systems.

It is not clear that Copernicus did not publish out of fear of the church since the church had not yet made a clear statement about its views on the subject.

There was a political element to Gallileo's troubles as well as a Theological one. The theological issue was whether the pope's infallibilty stretches to empirically testable matters. Gallileo suggested that the pope should refrain from doing so because it would make him look foolish when the evidence proved him wrong. The Catholic church has since adopted Gallileo's view with its doctrine of non-overlapping magesterium. But it was not a doctrine that was well calculated to make him popular.

On the political side, Gallileo tool advantage of the appointment of someone more sympathetic to him to speak out more forcefully, only to find that sympathy can be pushed too far.

But on a purely scientific level Gallileo was the leading figure of his day. He was the one, via his telescope, who got the heliocentric view accepted in scientific circles. Catholic circles were a little slower to come around.

Moral
You are not knowledgeable to speak on Biblical events. If you were, you would know that God's law regarding marrying within the family came much later. In the early days of man, people lived several hundred years. Many of their ages are given in Genesis. They lived very long lives and had many children. Since everyone began from the same family, they did intermarry and it was permitted by God. Whether one believes your fairy tale or God's word, its the same thing. The Bible addresses it.

So hold off on your half truths and continue to apply them to your version of science. Just give us your facts to support your position without foolishly attempting to bring down ours.


moral_majority
I laughed when I read your post, as I just had this conversation with my 9 year old cousin about 4 months ago. Of course he was genuinely curious and your tone seems to be more challenging and arrogant.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt however, and answer as best I can, assuming you really are curious.

In Genesis chapter 4, Adam and Eve have Cain and Able. They also have Seth later on in Genesis. It NEVER states that these were the ONLY children they had. In fact this is common throughout the Bible.

The only time offspring are named, or even mentioned, is when they are integral to a story. It is easily, and correctly assumed that Adam and Eve, and later Noah and his sons and their wives had many many children. The command of the Lord was to be fruitful and multiply. The Bible lists people of this age as living many hundreds of years, and thus, many hundreds of offspring would not be a stretch, IF the rest of the Story is stipulated as true.

Now having answered you, please note that the law against incest was not given until many hundreds of years later, and so would not be an issue.

Besides, don't people who follow the religion of evolution also have to believe in incest? I don't suppose they believe that several unrelated microorganisms happen to evolve into higher beings and eventually humans (all life for that matter) independently?

As long as we can speak civily, I would be happy to answer any other question I can for you.

Galileo, Copernicus, Whatever
The Pope may have had a problem with their theories, but the Bible doesn't speak to the Earth's, the Sun's, or anything else's position in the universe.

No comment from God on the subject so there isn't anything to contradict.


Interesting Evolutionary problem
Reproduction.

Included in the definition of new species as defined by Darwinists is the inability to breed with the former species. So what does the first of a new species breed with?

Evolution is so wrought with pitfalls and impossibilities that it makes magic underwear seem much more believable.


RealityDweller

I am shocked! Are you telling me that for evolution to work would need a pair, one male and one female, to randomly occur at the same place and time? And to be so developed to be able to reproduce?

What are the odds of that happening?

moral_majority, tell me of your faith! What science book do you read for such revelation?

Moral
I'm sorry, what was your case? Genetic disease?

You were just informed that people lived many hundreds of years in those days and that doesn't suprise you at all, but you have an issue with genetic disease?

Have you considered that things were different then? According to your own belief system, diseases evolved like everything else. When did genetic desease evolve. At what point of genetic diversity is it an issue?

Keep trying.

Change over hundreds of years?
Mankind has been observing animals over hundreds of years already. No evolution observed.

Moral
Inm sorry. What was your rebuttal? That I am ignorant?

That's a brilliant argument you got there.

moral_majority
I cannot speak to God's reasons for instituting any of His commandments.

As to your question: I have no problem believing this whatsoever. I personnaly speculate as to whether or not there was some genetic modification done (by God) to those who proceeded after the flood. The Bible shows a ramp down in human longevity after this point.

Dr, Jack Cuozzo, who was among the first scientists to study Neanderthal fossils, concluded that they (Neanderthals) lived several to many hundreds of years. Here is a link which will allow you to read some of what he has written on the subject: http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/isd/cuozzo.asp
I'm not sayinf pre-deluvians were definitely Neanderthals, but I find his studies quite interesting.

My beliefs are the result of an exhautive search. In my lifetime I have been agnostic, Catholic, and at one point even believed that aliens may have genetically upgraded humans from apes. I am now a Bible believing Christian, and have been so for several years. The Bible is the only book that has been able to answer every question I can raise, and I can feel the prescence of Christ in my life. But for me, logic and reason led me to faith, not the other way around.

Have a great day! - RD

W2
Christianity in itself isn't responsible for "mischief and misery"...however, it has been misused and abused by some. Even so-called "fanatical" Christianity, if kept true to its teachings, will not cause anyone "misery".

Some people also abuse and misuse prescription drugs, but I would never say medicine is responsible for the misery in our world.


Lon
Giordano Bruno who was burned at the stake for arguing that the sun was just one of many solar systems.

Bruno was condemned for preaching hermeticism. He used heliocentrism to support his cosmology. I'm not saying he should have been burned, but don't put him in with the scientific minds of his time.

Moral majority
Is Bill Maher.

unicorns and probability
Many people believe in God. Few, if any, believe in unicorns, and believing in them is unlikely to cause the believer to do things like killing those who do not believe in them or disagree about some characteristic of them.

As to the improbability of Earth existing: Anything with better than a zero probability of happening will eventually happen. The laws of physics do not deny the possibility of a planet like Earth existing.

If you cannot imagine Earth existing without a creator, then you certainly cannot imagine a being able to create it and the universe coming into existence without a creator, etc., etc.

moral majority...
"Evolution happens over hunderds of years; with small adaptive changes each time."

Hundreds? Don't you mean hundreds of thousands or even millions of years? You can't even get that right.


Come on Moral
Take God out of the equation and tell me how people interbreeding didn't get the genetic disease.

You are speculating every bit as much.


Religious Fanaticism and Fundamentalism?
Yes. Atheism in the 20th Century was wonderfully peaceful, was it not?

Please...

moral_majority
The "response" you put in your last post, was indeed something I wrote, but came after my response.

Your question:
"Yet you are comfortable believing that the first humans; who were for the most part genetically defective; lived for hundreds of years? "

My response was:
"As to your question: I have no problem believing this whatsoever. I personnaly speculate as to whether or not there was some genetic modification done (by God) to those who proceeded after the flood. The Bible shows a ramp down in human longevity after this point."

I would remove the middle part of your question, as there is no evidence whatsoever that they were in ANY part genetically defective.

Of course this is speculation. Any attempt by anyone to explain the origins of man, or life, or the universe for that matter is philisophical speculation. That is why we have theories. Since there is no way to scientifically repeat and observe the origins of anything, we have to speculate. The Bible just does a much more believable job of this than Mr. Darwin or Mr. Gould.


Rebel
Award winner for most flawed argument. Congratulations!

"If you cannot imagine Earth existing without a creator, then you certainly cannot imagine a being able to create it and the universe coming into existence without a creator, etc., etc."


So we can't imagine the Creator. He must be real then.

BTW since there is, in evolutionary terms, at least a better than zero chance of the future existence of unicorns; Can I have one? There is also a better than zero chance of you being struck by lightning every time you play the 4th hole (the water hazard).


The religion of evolution...
I've followed the creation/evolution debate for several years, and I've found that evolutionists generally live by the following rules:

1. Evolution is an established fact.
2. Anyone who doubts evolution is stupid.
3. If fossil evidence ever casts doubt on evolution, see rule #1.
4. If anyone with scientific credentials raises questions about evolution, see rule #2.
5. If you or anyone else ever doubts evolution, see rules #1 and #2.

Scientists tell us to question everything, and not to accept anything at face value. Yet when anyone raises the slightest question about evolution, these same "scientists" cover their ears and scream, "Heresy!"


moral_majority
Regarding your Adam and Eve query:

I am the first child my parents had. Does that mean I am the ONLY child they had? It does not; they had four others after me.

Therefore, the fact that Adam and Eve were the FIRST children God created does not mean they were the ONLY children He created.

And why are the others not mentioned? Well, why do I have two baby books, and my youngest sister has 1/3 of a baby book? Or -- why do we know the first men who walked on the Moon and not the tenth or seventeenth or even the third? Because after the first one it becomes routine.

Moral
We are still patiently waiting for your logic to start.

Lets see:

1. The universe came from nothing.

2. Mindless processes caused statistically impossible, unreapeatable, occurances to happen only once over hundreds of millions of years.

3. Can't be anything considered "supernatural".

4. All the symbiotic relationships between animals and plants, including, mimicing appearance, just happened by chance.

5. We should be hung up on genetics if God created the world.

Gee. Your theory is so much better.

You theory really has about as close to zero chance as possible. Why don't you just say flying monkeys built the universe out of an erector set and start manufacturing evidence to support it until we teach it in school? The odds are just as good that that's how it all happened.

Moral Majority
Actually, thne outcome of inbreeding is a higher chance of expresing recessive traits. those can be good as well as bad.

you also assume inbreeding always results in genetic deterioration. Actually, inbreeding increases the risks of bad outcomes, but it is not a forgone conclusion. (It also increases the chances of good recessive traits.)

Just to correct your misapprehension of the genetics of inbreeding.

(Sorry, but if you want to champion the "scientific" atheist position, please get the science right.)

moral majority part 2
By your theory small populations (such as the Galapagos Islands) supposedly settled by small groups of progrenitors who drifted there would all be mutant morons, or would ahve died out altogether due to inbreeding.

Obviously inbreeding reduces genetic diversity and increase the proportion of recessive traits, but these can be good bad or neutral, so it does not follow that an inbred population is inherently degenerate or will die out or breed themselves into idiocy.

Typos
Sorry for all the typos. For once, I am not to blame. My son was "helping" me type. He is also "helping" with work, which is making my day quite interesting.

Newsflash
This is what I wanted so much to be my entire post:

moral_majority answers previously unkown questions of, "Why are we here? and how God works."


Look here:
mm writes:
God did not have a paralell universe of several Adams & Eves going.
---
We should have been coming to you for all our answers about how God works. We just didn't know you were so tight with him. If you are buds with God and don't believe in him, I think I'll just lay down my belongings and follow you.

I really thought about not being sarcastic, but it's just not as fun. Sorry mm. I'm just poking for response. In all seriousness. The more we know scientifically, the less credibility evolution has. The Creation model seems to be picking up steam. I and others here once put stock in evolution. What else was there?

Where did the dinosaur bones come from and why does the Earth show effects from natural processes that would have taken multiple millions of years to complete? These used to be difficult to defend on a rational basis for Creationists. Now reasonable answers are forthcoming and each one takes a chunk out of the theory of Evolution's armor. So many chunks have been removed that there is little left but a slew of remaining adherents that will not leave the faith no matter what evidences they see.

Still, we are entitled to our opinions. Just don't label them as fact when you have none.





It's all denial
I've found that most, if not all athiests are really in denial about the existence of God and Christ. Because to accept otherwise, it usually means a change in their lives, or giving up something secular, temporal, even amoral.

No matter what you explain to an athiest, there is always a rebuttal. Take moral_majority for example - s/he asks the common questions but no matter the response, such as the great posts by Realitydweller, s/he always comes back with more illogical questions. IMHO it is just to push buttons and ire beleivers.

That being said however, if there are any true seekers out there, let me offer up an author who has wrote several books that address your most infamous questions: Lee Strobel. Seek and you shall find.

A question about the Bible...
Could someone tell me where in the Bible it makes it OK to interpret it any way you chose, whether literally or merely symbolically? Seriously.

Why
Is the moon still here? It is measurably drifting away from the Earth at a rate we can calculate. If we know it's age, and we think we do, it would have long ago drifted away into the vast unknown.

Why is the sun the size it is? No matter what we estimate as the age of the sun, when we calculate how much of it is burned off and sent into space, It would have been too large even a few hundred thousand years ago and burned off the Earth's atmosphere.

We believe we can estimate the amount of salt deposited in Earth's oceans annually. Measuring the amount already contained in them, if fairly constant depositing, gives them an age of only a few thousand years.

If the Earth was molten at one time, how did Ayers rock - one of the oldest known rocks and one of increadible size, mass, and weight - rise to the surface against all known physics?

These questions are only the tip of the iceberg that has hit the evolution ship broadside.

How do plants evolve? How did some of them invent their own means of trapping and eating animal life?

moral_majority
I'm not sure your question makes any sense whatsoever. Assuming you're an evolutionist, are you saying that the original speciated beings who could be called human were many, many, non-related beings who just happened to be genetically compatible from a reproductive standpoint?

Whether it's Adam and Eve or two people who speciated from ape-like creatures, there were only two at the outset....right?

This is the strangest line of questioning I've ever heard from an evolutionist......


RD

Julz
I decided literally because because if it were symbolically, it would be open to many interpretations and we couldn/t be sure of anything.

It is safer to assume litterally. Beyond that, why would God not say what he means? Seriously.

Jesus said come to him as little children. Do children read for symbolism or for litteral meaning?

Dinesh
I have to heartily concur with you on Hitchens. There is some truth to what he says, however his lack of religion is apparent and shows in his mistakes. He has substituted pride and arrogance for religion.

P.S.
To all of those on this board who think they intepret the Bible literally I am laughing. You do not or gays for starters would not exist.

How
Did a plant evolve a flower that mimics a bee in appearance to induce the male bee to come land on it when the plant can't see what the bee looks like? How did the plant know to bloom at the time when those specific bees are mating?

fuzz and mm
"a slew of remaining adherents that will not leave the faith OF ATHEISM no matter what evidences they see."

Lolo
Please elaborate?

moral majority
It's been a long time since I have seen such an ignorant interpretation of evolution. You need to go back and re-read Darwin. Then go and read some histories and scientific interpretations of Darwin. You have taken Darwinism way farther than Darwin ever did.

Facts
> Evolution is an established fact.<

There are people here saying that people lived for hundreds of years, and presenting that as fact, as well as numerous other physical impossibilities.

Let's please not spoil this entertaining thread by insisting on facts.



Fuzzy
Elaborate on what specifically?

previous post directed at mm
my previous post was just in response to moral_majority, not Fuzzy. thanks

Julz
Here's a pretty good article (I like the whole site) that does not directly address your question, but it does talk about different approaches to interpreting the bible and reasons for doing so:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_inte.htm


Ingles
In putting Bruno with the scientific minds of the time I was relying on the fact that he was one of the scientific minds of the time. That the charges against him included his beliefs in certain scientific doctrines (although there was no sure split between science and philosophy then the existence of multiple planetary systems would seem to count as a scientific one), the fact that he was apparently ready to bow to the Vatican on the religious doctrines, but not the philosophic/scientific ones, and the fact that the vatican classified his trial as a precursor to Gallileos.

You may have some equally valid reason for thinking that he does not deserve to be counted among the people persecuted for his scientific beliefs. But you did not sya what they are.

Sorry Lolo
I meant regarding gays not existing if taking the Bible literally.

Fuzzy
It's all over the bible what we should do about gays and other things like adultery, murder, sex with animals, war etc. Heck, it even tells us about divorce! While we may punish people for bad behavoir we don't always do it the way the Bible tells us. Deuteronomy is basically handbook to life yet we do not intepret literally do we? Read it! We find things undesirable because our gut instinct tells us and so does a society that is based on Judeo-Christian values. Those values are what civilized the world. Yet we no longer mete out punishment exactly word for word verbatim the way the Bible tells us to. If we did the death penalty would not constantly be debated for starters. Don't ask me if we are right or wrong to soften the blows of the Bible because I don't know. I can only face God for my sins and that is when He will tell me.

Yankette
In a previous post, you accused atheists of being in denial. I agree with most of what you said, but I have a slight disagreement with this statement: "No matter what you explain to an atheist, there is always a rebuttal."

In fact, most atheists do not offer a real rebuttal. If you ask questions they can't answer, they'll usually just evade the questions. They'll try to change the subject, make ad hominem attacks, or they'll make condescending statements like, "You Christians are so stupid." They seldom give substantial answers.

That's why I said that evolution is more of a religion than science. I would go so far to call evolution a cult. If anyone expresses the slightest doubt about evolution, he/she is automatically shunned by the "scientific" community.

One of the best...
...counter arguments D'Souza puts forth is his slamming of all those who say that a reason that God must not exist is because of all the evils committed in the name of religion. First of all, there's the often-overlooked fact that in the 20th Century, when man was supposedly more enlightened than ever before, more people were murdered in the name of secular ideo