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Monday, February 12, 2007
Dinesh D'Souza :: Townhall.com Columnist
Letting the left off the hook
by Dinesh D'Souza
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Why are some conservatives so determined to let liberals off the hook for 9/11? For the past five years, leading pundits on the left have blamed American foreign policy for the blowback of Muslim rage that produced 9/11. In my book The Enemy at Home I turn the tables and say that it is liberal foreign policy and liberal values projected abroad that are largely responsible for this blowback.

In a recent column, Victor Davis Hanson charges that my argument puts me in the category of leftist author Susan Sontag and fundamentalist preacher Jerry Falwell. Sontag blamed 9/11 on “specific American alliances and actions.” Falwell said 9/11 was God’s punishment for America’s sins. Both seemed to imply that America deserved it.

But this is not what I say at all. My book asks a completely secular question: why did the guys who did 9/11 do it? Five years after this event, it’s not an unreasonable question. To ask it is not to “justify” the attacks any more than to ask whether British appeasement of Hitler prior to his invasion of Poland “justified” that invasion. Explanation is not the same as justification.

Of course Bin Laden and his co-conspirators bombed the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. But what put them in a position to do it? What gave them the courage to attack the world’s sole superpower? How has radical Islam been so successful in recruiting Muslims to its cause? Hanson offers no explanation, merely proclaiming Al Qaeda’s ideology “rambling” and “incoherent.” But consider three key questions.

First, without the Khomeini regime coming to power in Iran in 1979, would 9/11 have occurred? Radical Islam has been around since the 1920s, but for decades it was on the margins of power. Then in 1979 it captured a major state. Khomeini is the first Muslim leader to call America the Great Satan and to call for a worldwide revolution of Muslims committing martyrdom and jihad against the U.S. The Khomeini revolution paved the road to 9/11.

So how did we get Khomeini? When Jimmy Carter was elected in 1979 his liberal advisors told him that he could not consistently uphold human rights and support the Shah of Iran. Carter pulled the Persian rug out from under the Shah, and in trying to get rid of the bad guy, he got the worse guy. So here is a concrete way in which liberal foreign policy handed radical Islam control of its first major state.

Here’s a second question: Without the weakness and inaction of the Clinton administration during the mid-to-late 1990s, would 9/11 have happened? Recall that after the cold war the Islamic radicals went back to their home countries. They were fighting to overthrow their local governments, what they called the “near enemy.” Then they made a fateful decision to shift course and attack the “far enemy,” the United States.

Why? If you can’t defeat Mubarak in Egypt or the royal family in Saudi Arabia, what makes you think you can take on the world’s sole superpower? Bin Laden says he got the idea that America was weak and cowardly and could be attacked with impunity. So the radical Muslims launched a whole series of test strikes—from Khobar Towers to the bombing of U.S. embassies in East Africa to the suicide attack on the U.S.S. Cole—to test their theory of American weakness. And when in each case the Clinton administration failed to respond, or responded with pathetic ineffectiveness, this confirmed Bin Laden in his suspicion of American pusillanimity. By his own account Bin Laden says the radical Muslims were emboldened to conceive a grander strike, the one that we suffered on 9/11.

Third, without the charge that “Islam is under attack” and that America is an atheist, immoral society, would radical Islam win so many recruits to its cause? These charges suffuse the rhetoric of Bin Laden and the leading thinkers of radical Islam. Sayyid Qutb, who has been called “the brains behind Bin Laden,” argues that America is the global leader of the unbelievers, seeking to install secular leaders in the Muslim world and impose its godless, corrupting values on Muslim society. While Hanson seems completely unaware of this extensive literature, it has an enormous resonance throughout the Middle East.

Moreover, if you think about it, what would cause an ordinary Muslim in Islamabad or Riyadh to go to his death in order to strike out against America? Because the Palestinians don’t have a state? I don’t think so. Because of Al Qaeda’s “incoherent rambling”? Not likely. On the other hand, tell a pious Muslim that the Great Satan seeking to destroy his faith and undermine the Muslim family and corrupt the innocence of his children, and now you have a plausible motive for why Muslims would feel a call to jihad.

Why then would an intelligent guy like Hanson react so petulantly to a book that shows how liberal policy and liberal values have strengthened the appeal of the Islamic radicals and emboldened them to strike out at us? Why would a conservative work so hard to cover up the left’s responsibility for 9/11?

The reason is that for the past five years Hanson and some other conservatives have been invested in a strategy to attack Islam an intolerant and illiberal, and in this way to recruit liberals over to the conservative side. It’s the old clash of civilizations thesis. The only problem is that this strategy has failed miserably. How many liberals have responded positively to conservative articles showing that Muslims are all a bunch of socially repressive, women-hating, gay-stoning fanatics? How many from the left have jumped aboard the Bush bandwagon? I count not a single convert to our cause.

Meanwhile, America is paying a high price for conservative attempts to depict the Muslim world—a world that includes 1 billion people most of whom live in democratic countries like Indonesia, Malaysia, Bangladesh and Turkey—as religiously bigoted and politically fanatical. These attacks on Islam and Muhammad and Muslim culture are having the predictable effect of alienating traditional Muslims and pushing them toward the radical camp. No wonder the moderate Muslims are reluctant to take the side of people who are always blasting their prophet and their religion.

Yet as their strategy continues to fail, Hanson and others become more desperate and are now trying to enforce conservative political correctness against independent voices like me who are calling for a new understanding and a new approach. Why else would a guy who knows me and is a colleague of mine at the Hoover Institution make the absurd accusation that I am justifying the 9/11 attacks and blaming “millions of Americans” for those attacks?

It’s time for conservatives to reject such attempts to cling to a collapsing orthodoxy. My book shows that there are two clashes of civilizations, one within the West and the other within the Muslim world. While the left in America is working in tandem with the radical Muslims to defeat Bush in Iraq, the right should ally with the traditional Muslims to thwart this “war against the war on terror.” The traditional Muslims are the one group that can help us defeat radical Islam, and we would see this if we stopped looking for allies in all the wrong places.

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About The Author
Dinesh D'Souza's new book Life After Death: The Evidence is published by Regnery.
 
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Sorry, but this sounds like a squabble..
..between two conservative columnists, that can only help sell books!

I'm a fan of both VDH and D'Souza - so, I'll step lightly ..

D'Souza is right on the historical point that events in Iran (circa 1979) led to the emboldening of the Islamists. I haven't read his new book yet, but many of D'Souza's historical points (e.g. the chronology with Sayyid Qutb) are also echoed in 'The Looming Tower' and other books. I suspect that there is a misunderstanding in the statement that D'Souza is blaming America. In fact, I watched him (DD'S)on CNN, ably defending himself against that charge.

That said, I'm not so sure if D'Souza is correct in questioning VDH's motives. Maybe I missed it, but I have not seen VDH express some great hope for a kum-ba-yah ceremony with leftists.

The specific commment in VDH's piece was "But despite the differences between red- and blue-state America, we find more in common with each other than with conservative Muslims in a gender-segregated Saudi Arabia or a religiously intolerant Iran."

That is factually true, and does not evoke any "letting the leftists off scot-free" image. VDH has been critical of treasonous behavior on the part of the leftists in other articles.

PS: on the larger point ..
..that there are TWO cultural clashes taking place, one in America and one within Islam - DD'S is right!

The clash of cultures within America is a relatively new phenomenon. Although there have always been differences, it has never gotten to the point that one party was all-but-hoping for American defeat in order to score political gains.

But, in a sense, the entire political spectrum in America has 'slouched leftwards'. Except for social issues, the Republican party appears to be where the JFK Democrats were some 40+ yrs ago! Is it any surprise then, that the current Democrats have lurched all the way to Socialism in their economic policy and Internationalism in the foreign policy.

http://voice.townhall.com

Putting the blame
where it belongs might be a good start. Let's put the blame on the jihadist terrorists. Smack down on them.

Why go around in circles trying to place blame on anyone when we know that doesn't get us anywhere, only fighting among ourselves and divided.

If we are going to save ourselves from the radical jihadists we need to pull together as a nation and recognize what is facing us.

While D'Souza is right that any weakness emboldens these radicals to attack us, we need to come together in a show of strength.

Unfortunately with both political parties being only interested in power, money, and corruption, the American people are left to defend themselves, instead of a government which is supposed to be protecting us from invasion.

Is Islam to blame for 9/11 ?
Simply put, until Islam can stay the hand of aspiring Ayatollahs, Muftis, Mullahs and Imams who use their religion to issue Fatwas in furtherance of their lust for power, Islam is to blame.

How can you curb the murderous hatred often incited by these "leaders" of peace in the name of "protecting" their religion?

From the quo'ran, "Where Islam is weak, argue for conversion, where Islam is strong, demand conversion."

DD and VDH are missing the bigger picture, neither the Left, nor the Right are to blame, only the Leaders of Islam are. And only they can stop the supposed radical fringe amongst them.

Pappy Michael
What you said is what I was trying to say, only you put it better.

It's a matter of personal responsibility
I think VDH only wants the responsibility to fall upon those who have done the actions. He does not exempt the Left or the Clinton's--Carter--etc. for the problems in the middle east. But he rightly puts the locus of control into the hands of those committing the terrorist acts. OUR behavior does not 'cause' theirs; they are not merely 'reacting' to us. The muslims have their own agenda and goals and motivations and are not simply reacting. Thus, they are ultimately reponsible for what they do.

What to do?
Our chickens are coming home to roost. "If it feels good, just do it.." was the motto of the 60's and 70's when I was growing up. We didn't "just do it" for fear of getting caught, ridiculed and punished. Now, the things we only dreamed of doing (or got stoned enough to try) are being done in the open, fully supported by the media and hollywood powers that be. Alternate lifestyles are not hidden in the back rooms anymore; they're being shoved into our faces and demanding our stamp of approval. And this phenomena has actually been in force for less than 25 years (but growing exponentially)
What to do? Have an old fashion revival? Does the moral muslim man see our decadence as the ultimate threat?

Tanabear
Congatulations on finally admitting it was radical Muslims, whatever their financial source, who were responsible for 9/11... not some U.S. government conspiracy planned and executed by the "dreaded Neo-Cons"!

Perhaps there is hope for you yet! :-)

Letting the Left Off The Hook
RIght on Dinesh!!!
For those who might have missed it when we put it out. Here is an op-ed that former Georgia Congressman Mac Collins did a few years ago on terrorism....

Military Strength and American Determination Needed to Win This War
By Rep. Mac Collins
May 07, 2004

For 22 years -- until Sept. 11, 2001 -- the lack of a U.S. response to terrorist actions built up the terrorists' strength and landed the United States in the mess it confronts today.

Weakness and appeasement in foreign policy brings nothing but trouble and anguish, not only to Americans, but to freedom-loving people everywhere in the world. Terrorists take advantage of those who are weak. Let's look at the record:

In 1979, the Shah of Iran, a good friend of the United States, was overthrown by Islamic fanatics led by Ayatollah Khomeini. Their battle cry was and remains, "Death to America."

In November of that year, a militant Islamic mob took over our embassy in Tehran and held Americans hostage for 444 days. Those hostages were released on January 20, 1981.

In April1983, 17 Americans died when a suicide bomber in a pickup truck loaded with explosives rammed into the U.S. Embassy in Beirut, Lebanon. Reagan administration officials at the time said the attack was carried out by Hezbollah operatives, an anti-American militant Islamic group. Our government took no military response.

In October 1983, a suicide bomber detonated a truck full of explosives at the U.S. Marine barracks at Beirut's International Airport. 242 Marines were killed in that attack and more than 100 others were wounded. Those Marines were part of a multinational force that was sent to Lebanon to separate the warring factions there. Our government, again, took no military action.

In December 1983, the American embassy in Kuwait was bombed. Five Americans were killed. Our government, again, took no military action.

On September 20, 1984, a truck bomb exploded at the U.S. Embassy Annex in Aukar, Lebanon, northeast of Beirut. Twenty-four people were killed, two of whom were American military personnel. Again, our government took no military action.

In October, 1985, an Italian cruise ship, the "Achille Lauro," was seized by four gunmen off the coast of Egypt. The terrorists demanded the release of Palestinian prisoners in Egypt, Italy and other parts of the world. When their demands were not met, they threw 69-year-old Leon Klinghoffer, a disabled American tourist, overboard, killing him.

This time, our government did take action. After the hijackers escaped the Achille Lauro and left Egypt by air, U.S. Navy fighter jets intercepted their plane and forced them to land in Italy where they were captured and later tried by an Italian court and imprisoned. One of the hijackers confessed to killing Klinghoffer.

Then on December 17, 1985, airports in Rome and Vienna were bombed. U.S. officials linked Libya to those bombings. The following January, America responded by sending the Navy and its warplanes to patrol the Gulf of Sidra.

Libyan leader Moammar Qadaffi decided to push the envelope further. U.S. Intelligence forces discovered that Libya was behind the bombing of a West Berlin discotheque, popular with off-duty American soldiers. That attack killed one American serviceman and a Turkish woman and injured 200 others.

Retaliatory air strikes were ordered on Tripoli and Benghazi. One of Qadaffi's residences was bombed. The French would not allow America to use its airspace for these air strikes.

A short time later, the bodies of three American University of Beirut employees were discovered near Beirut after authorities determined they had been shot to death. The Arab Revolutionary Cells, a pro-Libyan group of Palestinians affiliated with terrorist "Abu Nadal," claimed credit for the executions.

In December1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by Muslim extremists over Lockerbie, Scotland. Our government did nothing.

On the morning of August 2, 1990, Iraq's Saddam Hussein and units of the Iraqi Republican Guard invaded Kuwait and seized control of that country. That invasion triggered a United States response by our armed forces that became known as "Operation Desert Storm."

Iraq agreed to cease-fire terms in March 1991, and Kuwait's legitimate government was restored.

In February 1993, the World Trade Center in New York City was bombed by Muslim fanatics. Five people were killed and hundreds were injured. Our government did nothing.

In October 1993, 18 American GI's were killed in a firefight in Somalia. The body of one American was dragged through the streets of Mogadishu for the whole world to see. Somalians cheered.

The U.S. responded by calling off the hunt for Mohammed Farrah Aidid, the leader of the forces challenging both the United States and United Nations presence in that country. Our troops were also withdrawn from Somalia.

The terrorists' actions continued.........In November 1995, five Americans were killed and several wounded when a car bomb set by Muslim extremists exploded in Saudi Arabia.

In June 1996, a U.S. Air Force housing complex in Saudi Arabia was bombed. Our government did not take action. Later that same year, Saddam attacked Erbil, a Kurdish controlled city.

On August 7, 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by Muslim extremists. At least 252 people died, including 12 Americans, and more than 5,000 were injured.

On August 20, 1998, the United States launched missile strikes against training bases in Afghanistan used by groups allegedly affiliated with Osama bin Laden.

However, in 1999, a terrorist plot was foiled when a terrorist attempted to enter the United States from Canada armed with explosives at the British Columbia and Washington state border.

In October 2000, the USS Cole was attacked by Muslim extremists and our government did nothing.

Before September 10, 2001, an estimated 800 Americans lost their lives in various terror attacks, but the government response up to that point was either nonexistent or ineffective.

On September 11, 3,000 Americans lost their lives because in the terror attacks on New York and Washington. And that's when the government, led by President George W. Bush, finally took the war on terror straight to the terrorists.

President Bush has taken decisive action. He struck Afghanistan, where the Taliban had given home base to al Qaeda for many years. Because the Taliban chose defiance, the Americans and the coalition acted there to remove the terrorists.

Now Afghanistan is our partner in the war against terror.

The record is there. It shows that the mistake began when Iranians assaulted the U.S. embassy in Iran and met with no resistance. If we had responded then, it would have let the terrorists know early on that the United States meant business.

It took a strong leader like President Bush to face up to the world as it really is and commit our nation to destroying these terrorist organizations.

President Bush is determined to continue this fight. I support him. His critics should realize that when it comes to foreign policy, partisan politics should stop at the waters' edge.





Al Qaeda planned a second wave of attacks on the heels of September 11, targeting the west coast. Those plans were aborted, because of President Bush's decisive crackdown on terrorist threats. The President declared his intent to snuff out those terrorist organizations that had declared war on us. His bold and decisive response demonstrated that America would not unwillingly stand by and wait for another attack.

Terrorists are being rounded up, regimes that harbor and sponsor them have been defeated, and states pursuing weapons of mass destruction are getting the message.

Now that we have a base of operations in Iraq, we can convincingly offer the leaders of the Middle East a representative government.

(Rep. Mac Collins, a Republican, represents the Eighth Congressional District in Georgia. He serves on the House Select Committee on Intelligence and the House Ways and Means Committee.)

-30-

Strategy?
D'Souza declares that Hanson and other conservatives are using a certain strategy to get the left on board. I don't know that I'd call it a strategy, since I don't think it was chosen over other strategies. It was just what seemed sensible. The left (with the exception of a few mavericks like Christopher Hitchens) is determined to see the terrorists as on the left, while everyone else sees them as on the far, far right.

The plain fact is that the left is behaving irrationally. It made sense for leftists to be fellow travelers with the Soviet Union, because they were always known to have been interested in progressiveness. But to be fellow travelers with people who are so anti-progressive makes no sense at all.

Tanabear, Kimberly, anyone, how about explaining it? Why are you so willing to defend people who want to destroy feminism?

no one gets off the hook.
I agree with Dinish that Khomeini assumed power in Iran and became an inspiration for radical Islam for all eternity, partially as a result of Carter's meddling and attempts to foster "democracy" in that Persian nation.

By the way, is Bush's meddling to foster a "democratic" Iraq that much different IN CONCEPT than what Carter was attempting to do with Iran? They both seem fixated on the notion of democracy curing the ills of the muslim world.

Regarding 9/11, Dinesh is correct in asserting Bin Laden did factor in Clinton's feeble responses to numerous Al Qaida provocations during the 1990s.

But Reagan's lack of response on Lebanese barracks bombing did not go unnoticed by Bin Laden either.

Bin Laden is convinced mujahideen fighters in Afghanistan destroyed the USSR. Mujahideen forced the Soviets out, and soon thereafter the USSR dissolved. He believes Muslim fighters destroyed the superpower USSR.

So why could they not destroy the remaining superpower, USA?

I can't agree with Dinesh that the great majority of Muslims live peacefully in democracies. Indonesia has until recently been ruled by military(Sukarno, Suharto), and during the last decade clashes between Muslims and Christians have taken thousands of lives. The real power in the "republic of Turkey" is its military. Its human rights record is such that the Europeans won't permit it to join the European Union.

I agree with Dinesh that what fuels Islamic rage against the west are our values and culture, which undermine and "corrupt" what most Muslims hold as sacred. It is not just the Palestinian issue.

Have to take issue with Dinesh on supposed "hostility" of the west toward Islam. Americans did not death threats against Salmon Rushdie or the creators of the Danish cartoons.

Given all the terrorism committed by Islamists, western societies as been extremely restrained in retaliation. Indeed, Europe is paralyzed by the virus of multiculturalism from even defending its traditions from the onslaught of Muslim immigrants demanding Sharia law and accommodation to Islamic practices, dress, etc.

typo corrections of final 2 paragraphs.
"Americans did not issue death threats.." and "Western societies have been extremely restrained.."

the moral corruption/stupidity/ lies
Ann Coulter and others on the right have spent the last few years saying that liberals are a fifth column consciously working on the side of the terrorists. She wrote a book called "Treason" on just that subject. Michele Malkin and her little friends went completely nuts over those Danish cartoons, screeching to high heaven about free speech and the inalienable right to criticize religion to matter how offensive the believers found it. It has been an article of faith that the left is in cahoots with the terrorists from the beginning.

Now, they've decided that the terrorists attacked America because it hates the American left --- its alleged supporters for lo these many years. And the finest minds of the right seem to be saying that America should appease these terrorists by succumbing to their demands that America stop tolerating liberalism at all.

When in the company of conservatives these days, be sure to carry an umbrella. You can never be sure when one of their heads is going to explode.

Minor point...
..."When Jimmy Carter was elected in 1979..."


Carter,of course,was elected in 1976 and sworn in in 1977.

No Hope for Tanabear
No, there is no hope for Tanabear, not after stating that the Clinton Adminstration's actions in the mid to late 1990s had little to do with 9/11. That is ridiculous. Remember Clinton withdrawing us from Somolia after the Battle of Magadishu? Bin Laden sure did. Remember the bombings of our African Embassies and the US Navby ship Cole during the Clinton Administration and the lack of any significant respense? Again, Bin Laden paid attention. The weakness of the Clinton Administration was one of the reasons that 9/11 happened.

Ye, There Is A Huge Difference
Yes, there is a huge difference -- like between a bright day and a dark night -- between, on the one hand, Jimmy Carter allowing the radical Shiite Islamist Khomeini to overthrow the modernizing but autocratic Shah and take power in Iran and establishing a theocratic regime firmly in the hands of the Islamic mullahs there and, on the other hand, George Bush leading a coalition of nations to remove a murderous tyrant in Saddam from power at a time that Saddam was in violation of 17 UN arms resolutions and thereafter propelling the Iraqi people to vote three times in the process of adopting a written Constitution and their own political leadership.

Oops.
Phil Byler, you are right. I forgot.

The Iraqi people elected a government that openly sided with the terrorist group Hezbollah in the recent flare-up in Lebanon, and where some Iraqi ministers of government owe their positions to radical Shia militias.

And don't forget what elections did for Hamas in the Palestinian territory, Hezbollah in Lebanon, and Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.

Regrettably, there is more to democracy, and pluralistic societies living in harmony, than merely holding elections.

sashal
It only seems contradictory if you assume that our own progressives, and the Islamists, are behaving logically, i.e. on the principle of "If A=B, and B=C, then A=C".

Unfortunately, this is simply not the case.

American progressives, like their European counterparts, are filled with a reflexive hatred of Western civilization. Their "logic" runs, "I know how the world should be. The world is not in line with my vision. The only possible reason is a deliberate refusal to recognize my superiority, and obey me. Therefore, the world must be punished, to make it see the light."

The Islamists see the world in precisely the same terms. Never mind that their definition of "perfection" is very different from that of the progressives.

As a result, the progressives see the Islamists exactly as they saw the Communists a generation ago; as their natural allies in demolishing the present "imperfect" civilization, and then building a new, "perfect" one on its ruins. The fact that the Islamists view the progressives as part of the problem, rather than part of the solution, is lost on the progressives. The fact that the Islamists see the progressives as "useful idiots", at least for the present, doesn't help any either.

On the progressives' part, there's also a good deal of unconscious (or even conscious) arrogance involved, as well. Like Charles Manson with his "Helter Skelter" delusion (see the book by Vincent Bugliosi and Curt Gentry), the progressives believe that, once the Islamists have succeeded in destroying the West and creating the New Caliphate, they will just be too stupid to run the world. So, they will need the brilliant, enlightened progressives to do it for them. (And they'll get to live like sultans out of the Arabian Nights, into the bargain.)

This is not to say that conservatives don't have to shoulder their share of the blame, as well. The Reagan Administration piled up a forebodingly impressive track record of missteps, screwups, and out-and-out FUBARs in the MidEast, ranging from their boneheaded policies in Lebanon (culminating in the loss of over 200 Marines in the barracks bombing), to their support of Arafat as an "honest broker" in the Israel/Palestinian debate (fat chance), to the entire Iran/Contra hanky-pank. The sum total of their misperceptions of the situation on the ground convinced the radicals (like bin Laden) that we could be conned, played, and ultimately rolled like a drunk in an alley. The policies of the next two adminstrations (Bush 41 and Clinton MK 1) only exacerbated the situation. (TIA; I voted for Reagan both times, and Bush 41 twice. The Democrats really gave me no choice. If their candidate, at any time, had been the likes of Sam Nunn, they'd have had my vote on the spot.) As for the Bush 43 crowd, they were barely out of the starting gate when the roof fell in- on 9/11. To give them credit, they recovered nicely at the start, but then fell victim to the wishful thinking so characteristic of theuir predecessors. Like James Baker III and lee Hamilton, to name only two. (I belive the President was entierly correct in rejecting their Commission's "recoomendations", which boiled down to "keep doing what we told your father to do". He was entirely incorrect to taking their advice at any point in the exercise, as he did prior to the invasion of Iraq. As he should have said that time, "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.")

The point is, there is more than enough blame to go around. But the conservatives can, at best, be accused of a combination of ignorance and co*k-eyed optimism. The progressives, by comparison, are at best cynical, and at worst totally disconnected from objective reality. Which, considering their constant cries that they, and only they, are "reality-based", can only be seen as evidence that they shouldn't have taken all those "consciousness-expanding" substances in the 1960s.

They need to contract their consciousness a bit. To focus on the objective conditions, as Marshal Zhukov used to say.

cheers

eon

oops
Yes, my spelling is off this morning.

Coffee, first, next time. I promise.

cheers

eon

Like the witches
D'Sousa makes the same ommissions week after week. The Reagan "redeployment" from Lebanon was Bin Laden's reason for thinking Americans are weak. But Bin Laden wasn't primarily trying to impress Americans with his attack on 9/11, he was trying to impress his base, potential nutjobs who might be motivated to join Al Qaeda if they could "blow stuff up" (Demi Moore's line). This is similar to Bush, Jr. invading Iraq to broaden his base at home.

Understanding Bin Laden's motives is more than just a blame game. Saying he was responding to specific real injustices does not make him a good guy. Shakespeare (Macbeth) tells us exactly what made the witches hate the world. It's a dramatic technique that makes them more real as characters, but not less bad.

sashal
There's nothing new about a leftist hurling insults at conservatives in response to a cogently-argued point. It seems to be all your side is capable of.

You might be a bit more convincing if you made even a small attempt at explaining why you disagree with Coulter, DiSouza, et al. Without that, you're just noise.

lib"good"man
For once, a cogent point; yes, I get it, understanding the human motives behind the actions of the wicked does, indeed, help us understand what makes them act, and therefore how best to respond.

Now if only the Left would respond intelligently, instead of reciting the underlying causes and couseling inaction or ineffective jawing...

Perhaps you can explain to me why it is the the Left never seems to get the fact that bad people don't stop doing bad things until you slap them really, really hard... regardless of the complex reasons they chose to be bad people in the first place?

The Shah
was overthrown in a popular revolution that was later coopted by radical Islamists.
To suggest that Carter could've done anything about it is specious at best.

Here's why.
Finger-pointing about the Carter and Clinton administrations will only spawn anger, not any sort of thought as to what we do now. "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

liberalgoodman
Let's get our facts straight. The "redeployment" of troops out of Lebanon by Reagan was not THE reason for OBLs belief we were weak, but one of many, beginning with our withdrawal from Viet Nam, our weakness in dealing with the hostage taking in Iran, Lebanon, WTC #1 bombing, the Khobar tower bombing, the retreat from Somalia (it was here that OBL was quoted that America was a "paper tiger", the bombing of our embassies in Africa, and the USS Cole. Our lack of response (which in the view of OBL and his ilk should have been on the order of Sherman's march to the sea) was instead viewed as weak and led him to believe he could pull 9/11 off without serious reprisal.

Schizophrenic Western civilization
I wrote an essay about why the Left in the West seems intent on aiding the West's enemies. It's on my blog site. The permalink is http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-RINX3_c4da3K6.XuPEpfs.ht2uVL2xI-?cq=1&p=106.

An excerpt:

"The stepchildren of Rationalism form an anti-Western West. They recognize they're Westerners, but they want desperately to dissolve the Christian moorings of the culture. They argue instead for the West to join a whole-world, Rationalism-based agglomeration, in which some central, world government enforces the value structures of Rationalism...

"Yes, Islam is a religion, rife with the sorts of inequalities that proto-Rationalists hate; but modern, Radical Islam objects to the same things about the Christianized West that the anti-Western West objects to, and common enemies create strange alliances."

Worth a read, and please comment.

Kim's Access
At the risk of embarrassing you how did you get access to these classified documents you mention, let alone get authorization to release the information into the blogosphere?

hard to take claims like yours seriously -- kind of a conflict; Reagan and Bush did this but the proof is locked up and I've never viewed it, therefore it must be true???


OK Dinesh, But is it Too Late?
I agree with the Dinesh theory, but it may be too late to turn things around, both in the Muslim world and in the U.S.

I am a conservative, but an unhappy Republican. Color me typical.

Already I am at the point of not trusting Muslims, period. I look at Britain, Denmark, Germany, France and what do I see? Well, I see so-called moderate IMAMs preaching Sharia law in Mosques. I see countries who didn't protect their culture and now they're losing it. I don't want that to happen in this country. I don't see the moderate Muslim community reaching out to America. I see the flying IMAM's deliberate attempt to try to get attention by screaming discrimination. I see the cabbies in Minneapolis refusing to give a ride to anyone who has liquor with them and I see a Muslim swear an oath on the Koran even though no biblical book is required and I see this as the tip of the iceburg.

I agree that the radical left is hell bent on changing the culture in this country but cozying up to Muslims isn't going to change the far left agenda, with or without the Iraq war. That battle has to be fought on the political front.




Jabelson- DD is not trying to be helpful
Jabelson writes: Monday, February, 12, 2007 9:58 AM
Is this really helpful?
What is Dinesh DeSousa really up to? There's enough blame to go around, i.e., if you're gonna blame Clinton for supposed weakness, how do you let his extremely vocal Republican congress off the hook? After all, they had both majorities for seven years before 9/11.
=============================================

He is not trying to be helpful. His purpose to keep republican power. To do that, any lie will or twisted fact is acceptable. If liberals are the enemy, then no one will listen to them, so there is nothing they can do or say to convince- so all those on this board are sure votes.

It really is that simple- keep them filled with hate. It is a beautiful strategy if your only purpose is power.

No one could have this twisted version of our history. The sheer number of events he is ignoring to draw these conclusion is breath taking. No one could be that daft without an overall purpose…

Maybe he is just selling his book… or its two birds with one stone. Make money off the book while ensuring a solid base of ill-informed voters.

Here's why DD
DD: "Why then would an intelligent guy like Hanson react so petulantly to a book that shows how liberal policy and liberal values have strengthened the appeal of the Islamic radicals and emboldened them to strike out at us? Why would a conservative work so hard to cover up the left’s responsibility for 9/11?

Phylo: Because even people like Hanson and Hewitt can see that your selective view of history is so far-fetched and agenda driven that they are embarrassed to be associated with it.

First, you want to start the problem of radical Islam in 1979, while totally ignoring the CIA organized coup in 1953 which, understandably, led to enormous resentment of the US and the West. (By the way Iranians from the Khomeini regime didn't attack us. Saudis did. It's the Wahabists who are the real source of Islamic terrorism.)

And then you want to blame Clinton for not responding to terrorist attacks but you let Reagan and Bush totally off the hook. You seem to be intentionally ignoring the fact that it was Bush who had the responsiblity to respond to the USS Cole, not Clinton. And it was Reagan who ran away from Lebenon.

And then you want to blame radical Islam on our liberal social values (which, I admit, might be part of the reason), but you seem to totally ignore the fact that our military presence in the Middle East and our support for secular dictators are foremost among the reasons that Bin Laden cited for wanting to attack the US.

The fact is: our military presence and support for secular dictators gives the radical Islamists all the tools they need to say that the US is planning to take over the Middle East, destroy Islam, and steal all of their oil. All they have to do is point to American warships in the Gulf, and the building of what seem to be permanent bases in Iraq to "prove" that we're out to destroy them.

Finally, the premise of your book seems to suggest that the US needs to heal it's liberal ways, when most people in the West are hoping that our liberal ways will find their way into the Muslim world and spur a reformation among the younger generations of Arabs and Persians (which has worked fairly well in Iran by the way). In other words, you seem to want America to be more religiously pious like them, when most people here would prefer it if they become more socially liberal like us.

So that's your problem in a nutshell DD: Your view of history is so selective and one-sided that your agenda is too obvious for even a propagandist like Hugh Hewitt to endorse. Unlike you, Hewitt and Hanson understand that propaganda, in order to be effective, must at least have the appearance of objectivity.

Better luck with your next book DD: How liberals were responsible for the Great Depression.

Phylo out.


jerabaub is correct
in his assessment that the US response has been extremely restrained. We could have turned Kabul, Tehran, Baghdad, Mecca, and Medina (amongst others) into radioactive slag within hours of the Towers falling on 9/11. We did not, opting instead for the relatively safe approach of invasion and removal of the Governments in question.

Has it been costly? Of course it has, war is never cheap nor easy. FREEDOM IS NEVER FREE.

Kimberly - up to your old tricks AGAIN! Atempting to lay the blame for our problems with radical islam at the feet of the Bush family. Can you not accept the FACT that they do not like our way of life, with all of its industry and liberty, and want to impose their own? Is it too hard for you to see that it is convert or die for the extremists?

Or do you still (rather naively) believe that we can get along with them if we 'understand their point of view?'

I don't agree with your opinions on most matters, but I do respect your right to voice them. The leaders of al-Qaeda and their fellow extremists will cut out your tongue or stone you to death for the incredibly heinous crime of being a woman who dares speak out.

Moderate Hick- You actually trust Bush?
Moderate Hick writes: Monday, February, 12, 2007 10:05 AM
Kim's Access
At the risk of embarrassing you how did you get access to these classified documents you mention, let alone get authorization to release the information into the blogosphere?

hard to take claims like yours seriously -- kind of a conflict; Reagan and Bush did this but the proof is locked up and I've never viewed it, therefore it must be true???
=================================

In February of 2001- six months prior to 9-11, bush signed an executive order that we will never be able to see the inner working of this administration. It changed the rule form 12 years after getting out of office the papers start to become declassified to allowing the past president or the current to prevent them indefinitely- effectively undermining any ability of us to over-see our government’s actions.

We still do not know the members of Cheney’s “Energy Task Force” meeting. He took that to the S.C. to prevent our ability of oversight as part of his “Unitary President” theory.

Cheney is the first V.P. in Our History that the Governmental Accountability Office had to sue in order to disclose information from his office.

Bush lied multiple times about the Wiretapping. First in denial of it, then in the scope of it, and finally it came out that he was spying on Americans – claiming that it was for our protection, but never providing a reason of how that is.

The intelligence leading up to this war in Iraq has all but been shattered. It is now coming out that this administration knowingly used information that was NOT supported by this war.

These are just a few of the actions of this administration that prevents “We the People” from performing our duties as citizens. Because of changes this Administration has made our Government a secret- we cannot provide the oversight necessary to ensure our government is acting on our behalf.

Even now, after the electorate sent a strong message of change for Iraq, Bush continues down the same path of failure.

Sir, it is hard to take you seriously. Do you even know about any of these events- or do you just emphatically trust the government? Can you reconcile a secret government with democracy?

Why must an energy policy be so secrete we cannot even know who attended the meetings? I am sorry, this sounds filled with corruption to me. To assume that the Bush Administration is acting in good faith is absolutely a flawed act.

The evidence is mounting that this just may be the most corrupt administration we have ever endured.

inkling revival
You’re right. There is nothing new about a leftist hurling insults at conservatives in response to a cogently-argued point. Who does sashal think he is? Doesn’t he know that only the right is allowed to do that?


A Harmful Misstatement
I am very disturbed by this article because it helps to spread an idea that is not at all correct, and is in fact harmful. D'Souza says: "America is paying a high price for (conservative) attempts to depict the Muslim world—a world that includes 1 billion people most of whom live in democratic countries like Indonesia, Malaysia, Bangladesh and Turkey—as religiously bigoted and politically fanatical. These attacks on Islam and Muhammad and Muslim culture are having the predictable effect of alienating traditional Muslims and pushing them toward the radical camp. No wonder the moderate Muslims are reluctant to take the side of people who are always blasting their prophet and their religion". On the contrary, I find that most publicity in the US and the Western world has always depicted the Muslim world as consisting of mostly peaceful people. This publicity far outweighs that which say otherwise. For example, only days after 9/11, President Bush and high government officials made it a highly publicized point to attend a "service" in a Washington mosque. And how often have we heard spokespersons publicly say that "most Muslims are not terrorists, but instead are peaceful"? How often have we heard that "this is a war on terror; this is not a war on religion or a clash of civilizations". Yes, most Muslims do think that the Western world is attacking their religion, but that is almost entirely due to the propaganda that is being spread among Muslims by THEIR newspapers, by THEIR radio and television and by THEIR religious leaders in their mosques and schools. (Only the US invasion of Iraq can share a little bit of the blame for this.) Off the top of my head, I can only think of one person who publicly told the truth, that most of the Muslim world was either ignorant or else religiously and politically bigoted, and this person was the late Orianna Fallaci. By failing to see Islam for what it currently is, and instead putting blame on us by saying that "moderate Muslims are reluctant to take the side of people who are always blasting their prophet and their religion", is a terrible misstatement of the facts. It is harmful. Yes, you had better get ready for the future, a future in which your grandchildren or great-grandchildren will be praying in mosques. We must recognize the truth. This is a clash of civilizations !!












Ben is clairvoyant
So because you think this it makes it true. One set of documents that will never be declassified are the ones that Sandy Berger (Clinton's former NSA advisor) took from the archives and destroyed.

Impress me with facts not a lot of speculation.

Trying to make Hitler look like a child?
Dash42 writes: Monday, February, 12, 2007 10:31 AM
jerabaub is correct
in his assessment that the US response has been extremely restrained. We could have turned Kabul, Tehran, Baghdad, Mecca, and Medina (amongst others) into radioactive slag within hours of the Towers falling on 9/11. We did not, opting instead for the relatively safe approach of invasion and removal of the Governments in question.
=========================================
What would this accomplish besides turning us into the newest monster?

Really. What the hell would this do?

Try reading a little about a different thought from your own side:
http://www.townhall.com/Columnists/FrankPastore/2007/02/11/islam_is_not_the_enemy!

Or, and I do realize I am dreaming, but try reading this: Noble Laureate Muhammed Yunus vs. Osama Bin Laden:

http://www.freedomszone.com/archives/2006/10/noble_laureate_muhammed_yunus.php

Charlie
Charlie writes: Monday, February, 12, 2007 10:46 AM

Yes, most Muslims do think that the Western world is attacking their religion, but that is almost entirely due to the propaganda that is being spread among Muslims by THEIR newspapers, by THEIR radio and television and by THEIR religious leaders in their mosques and schools.

==================================

Do you read the articles on this site much?
How about the comments?

The people in the Middle East have access to the internet- if they had only this site to determine what America really thinks about them- they would believe we were calling for a religious war.

Moderate Hick
Moderate Hick writes: Monday, February, 12, 2007 10:46 AM
Ben is clairvoyant
So because you think this it makes it true. One set of documents that will never be declassified are the ones that Sandy Berger (Clinton's former NSA advisor) took from the archives and destroyed.

Impress me with facts not a lot of speculation.
===================================
If you’re not going to regard facts as facts- why should I waste my time?

Are you suggesting Bush did not sign that executive order?

Are you saying there never was a secret energy meeting?

Where have you been?

Bens Dementia
Well it is you that made the claim that this may turn out to be the most corrupt administration in history.

BTW I note that you ignored the reference to Berger - the one public fact that even the network news covered. It would seem to indicate you only care about truth if it suits your political beliefs.

Quit dancing around the fire and howling at the moon with conspiracy theories. Again impress me with verifiable FACTS, not talking points hot off the Kos or DU webpages

MikeR
You're a hypocrite. Almost invariably, when some rightward columnist or blogger (like me) puts a label on a leftist, it's because there's a specific act we can point to that exhibits that behavior. That's true in this case, as I'm calling you a hypocrite for using the "everybody does the same thing defense" in an instance where the left's behavior is clearly FAR more egregious than anything the right does.

This stands in clear contradistinction to the left's near-universal behavior, in which the arguer can barely write three sentences or speak for a minute before resorting to ad hominems, without the slightest support for them. My personal record is the fellow -- actually a friend of mine, but a liberal -- who asked me "Why Iraq?" and then allowed me FOUR WORDS before he started sneering.

I really wish it were possible for every liberal to live for just 10 minutes in a conservative's shoes, and see themselves as they're seen. Any of them that have even the smallest amount of human decency left in them would react with an astonished "Do we really sound like that? ALL the TIME????"

Ben and Michelle fraternal twins?
It just dawned on me that you and Ms. Malkin seem to process facts in exactly the same way: You take one fact and extrapolate it to mean a bunch of other stuff that you have no hard evidence of.

For example:
Fact: Bush signed an executive order

Speculation: this covered up lying about about wiretaps, this administration knowingly used information that was NOT supported by this war, and The evidence is mounting that this just may be the most corrupt administration we have ever endured.

Ben
I was NOT advocating that response, merely pointing out that we COULD have done it.

By comparisson with that (and NO I do not EVER want those missiles to fly) our response HAS been moderate and restrained. It still is considering that we could have carpet bombed Bagdhad or Kabul at the outset, turned the cities into rubble, and created far more civilian misery than we have. We could still do that, mind you. It would neither be pretty nor cheap (in terms of casualties), but we HAVE NOT YET DONE SO. Does that not also argue for continued restraint?

As a former AF member, I know full well how ghastly the destruction from a nuclear warhead would be; stating a possible response after 9/11 is not the same as advocating it.

To answer your rhetorical question specifically: Not very much and nothing good in the short or long term. As I said, I was stating an option we have; I am most certainly NOT advocating it.

D'Souza
writes that, "moderate Muslims are reluctant to take the side of people who are always blasting their prophet and their religion."


Are they that sensitive? Do "moderate" muslims think that anyone who criticizes Islam should be killed? According to D'Souza, muslims are law-abiding and peaceful, but will become suicide bombers at the hint of religious criticism.

O.K., Dinesh, for the record: I, DavidMac, think that the religion of Islam is a sham and merely an excuse for homocidal maniacs to practice their bloody fantasies. Allah and Mohammad were puking cowards who slaughtered women and children because they're easier targets than soldiers. "Moderate muslims" is an oxymoron.

There. Are you converting to terrorism yet, Dinesh? Are you busy dialing Osama bin Laden's cell phone to beg him to allow you to join the martyrs?







lol everything is the liberals fault
when will conservatives start being adults and start taking responsiblity for their own actions.

once again the conservatives had 12 years of rule and now all they can do is blame liberals.

disgusting and shameful.

Ben the liar
How many times do we have to hear the same, tired lies over and over and over from these grotesquely dishonest leftists? It's truly astonishing that you guys are actually unphased by the repeated exposure of your dishonestly, and continue to recite the mindless tag lines, in a clear attempt to exercise the strategy first outlined by Goebbels to make people believe what's clearly false.

Lie 1) "We still do not know the members of Cheney’s “Energy Task Force” meeting. He took that to the S.C. to prevent our ability of oversight as part of his “Unitary President” theory."

Cleverly leaving out the fact -- and it is a fact -- that the Supreme Court, even before the appointments of Roberts and Alito, agreed with the Vice President that the claim was an unconstitutional incursion into the Executive's constitutional prerogatives.

Lie 2) "Cheney is the first V.P. in Our History that the Governmental Accountability Office had to sue in order to disclose information from his office."

Cheney was the first VP in our history who had to defend against this unconstitutional incursion. And you know it.

Lie 3) "Bush lied multiple times about the Wiretapping."

This is not the first time that a Republican is charged with "lying" for refusing to reveal classified information. Of course, if he DOES reveal classified information, it's against the law.

Lie 4) "claiming that it was for our protection, but never providing a reason of how that is."

We know EXACTLY how it is. The suspected terrorist uses a consistent, satellite phone & number; the contact within the US uses a disposable, prepaid cell phone to contact it. You can't get a warrant for the phone number in the US because it's only used once, then thrown away. You can't get a warrant for the other number because it's outside any US jurisdiction. So if you want to surveil the conversation, you MUST trace the satelite phone call to its destination inside the US without a warrant. Get it?

Lie 5) "The intelligence leading up to this war in Iraq has all but been shattered."

Quite the contrary. There isn't a single claim made by the Bush administration during the run-up to the war that is not provably correct, except for two: a) the volume of WMDs is not verified (but was probably pretty close), and b) the aluminum tubes were not for nuclear devices (they were for medium-range missiles, also banned by the UN agreement).

But the lies just go on and on, because Democrats don't know how to acquit themselves any other way.

tanabear
tanabear writes: Monday, February, 12, 2007 9:56 AM
No way
Phil states, "Remember Clinton withdrawing us from Somolia after the Battle of Magadishu?"

Clinton bombed Afghanistan after the embassy bombings and almost got bin Laden. What did Bush do after he became President? nothing
=======================================
According to the last security report- he has made us less safe and fueled the fires of terrorism.

No way!
Now we are really getting stupid. What a lame attempt to sell a book. Look, we can't do anything about the Carter Administration (which started in 1977 and he certainly wasn't elected in 1979. If you can't get that right, how sloppy is this book?) Conservatives were not focused on terrorism in the 90's any more than liberals. The main goal of conservatism in the 90's was to overturn the 1996 election. That's it. That was the point. Nothing more.

This country is not going to alter its behavior because of a bunch of nuts. Yes, American conservatives have a natural alliance with radical Islam in the shared social goals, but the rest of us want no part of it. Bomb us if you like, but we're not giving in to the Christian Right just to appease radical Islam.

D'Souza, you'd better start thinking about another topic, because this one is a non-starter. Protest to your hearts content, but you are in fact blaming America and that is no more attractive coming from the right as it is from the left.

Moderate Hick
Moderate Hick writes: Monday, February, 12, 2007 11:13 AM
Bens Dementia
Well it is you that made the claim that this may turn out to be the most corrupt administration in history.

BTW I note that you ignored the reference to Berger - the one public fact that even the network news covered. It would seem to indicate you only care about truth if it suits your political beliefs.

Quit dancing around the fire and howling at the moon with conspiracy theories. Again impress me with verifiable FACTS, not talking points hot off the Kos or DU webpages
====================================

No, string him. If he went in for what ever reasons and took classified information- string his a.s.s. up.


A little late to the party.
You have to ask yourself with all the conservative victimhood of the last six years, isn't DD a little late to the party?

I don't understand this victimhood, pin-the-blame-tail on the donkey game?

I just do not understand all this boviating about being liberal victims.

Where were YOU in the last 30 years. It's not like conservatives have had 0, zip, nada political power in the last 50 years. It's not like liberals literally used guns to keep conservatives out of Hollywood or the MSM.

Until conservatives step up to the plate and state, "yup, liberals beat us at the war of words all the while we sat on our hands," nothing will changed.

For all the negative, anti-liberal bashing talk on AM Radio, Fox News and web sites like this, liberals still WON the 2006 elections simply by not being Republicans.

HOw sad is that. Republicans had 6 years, from 2000-2006 of complete control of the Federal Government? Were those years squandered or were they effective? It is obvious to anyone that Republicans could not switch from mud-slinging to effective action once in power. Rush Limbaugh did not change his daily message.

Bashing liberals is not building a country. It is not taking effective action. Republicans like to claim they are the only party with the ideas. Yeah, well were are the results?

No where to be found. You know why? Because people like Hugh Hewitt are too busy hiring people like DD to be liberal victims rather than hiring conservative champions.

Conservatives have to admit they were present and accounted for the last fifty years and admit some of the blame lies with them, if for no other reason than being complacent.

DD is a fraud. We are all Americans. Just blaming liberals for 9/11 is a stupid, childish, weak, victimhood, err liberal, tactic.

Be rugged individual. Be responsible. Be an American and take charge.

Enough of the whining.




Moderate Hick
Moderate Hick writes: Monday, February, 12, 2007 11:22 AM
Ben and Michelle fraternal twins?
It just dawned on me that you and Ms. Malkin seem to process facts in exactly the same way: You take one fact and extrapolate it to mean a bunch of other stuff that you have no hard evidence of.

For example:
Fact: Bush signed an executive order

Speculation: this covered up lying about about wiretaps, this administration knowingly used information that was NOT supported by this war, and The evidence is mounting that this just may be the most corrupt administration we have ever endured.

===========================


Bush signing an executive order is speculation?
Are you serious? Your not being serious.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/11/11/ED81976.DTL

I will note: I had my dates wrong. But the fact that we no longer have access remains the same..

Dash42
Dash42 writes: Monday, February, 12, 2007 11:23 AM
Ben
I was NOT advocating that response, merely pointing out that we COULD have done it.

By comparisson with that (and NO I do not EVER want those missiles to fly) our response HAS been moderate and restrained. It still is considering that we could have carpet bombed Bagdhad or Kabul at the outset, turned the cities into rubble, and created far more civilian misery than we have. We could still do that, mind you. It would neither be pretty nor cheap (in terms of casualties), but we HAVE NOT YET DONE SO. Does that not also argue for continued restraint?

As a former AF member, I know full well how ghastly the destruction from a nuclear warhead would be; stating a possible response after 9/11 is not the same as advocating it.

To answer your rhetorical question specifically: Not very much and nothing good in the short or long term. As I said, I was stating an option we have; I am most certainly NOT advocating it.

============================================

Okay, I must have misread- sorry. And, I am glad to hear it.. But, all too often on this site, that is exactly what is propagated. I agree, we could do those things, but they would not benefit us.

The last security reports stated that directly. This war is creating terrorist, not stopping it. And articles like the one above will bring us no closer to security.

The way we respond in our foreign policy does matter. The methods of the Bush administration are beneath us. And they do not bring us closer to success.

Carter Sold Out Iran 1977-1978
by Chuck Morse

As if a light were switched off, the Shah of Iran, Mohammad Reza Pahlevi, portrayed for 20 years as a progressive modern ruler by Islamic standards, was suddenly, in 1977-1978, turned into this foaming at the mouth monster by the international left media. Soon after becoming President in 1977, Jimmy Carter launched a deliberate campaign to undermine the Shah. The Soviets and their left-wing apparatchiks would coordinate with Carter by smearing the Shah in a campaign of lies meant to topple his throne. The result would be the establishment of a Marxist/Islamic state in Iran headed by the tyrannical Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini. The Iranian revolution, besides enthroning one of the world's most oppressive regimes, would greatly contribute to the creation of the Marxist/Islamic terror network challenging the free world today.

At the time, a senior Iranian diplomat in Washington observed, "President Carter betrayed the Shah and helped create the vacuum that will soon be filled by Soviet-trained agents and religious fanatics who hate America." Under the guise of promoting" human rights," Carter made demands on the Shah while blackmailing him with the threat that if the demands weren't fulfilled, vital military aid and training would be withheld. This strange policy, carried out against a staunch, 20 year Middle East ally, was a repeat of similar policies applied in the past by US governments to other allies such as pre Mao China and pre Castro Cuba.

Carter started by pressuring the Shah to release "political prisoners" including known terrorists and to put an end to military tribunals. The newly released terrorists would be tried under civil jurisdiction with the Marxist/Islamists using these trials as a platform for agitation and propaganda. This is a standard tactic of the left then and now. The free world operates at a distinct dis-advantage to Marxist and Islamic nations in this regard as in those countries, trials are staged to "show" the political faith of the ruling elite. Fair trials, an independent judiciary, and a search for justice is considered to be a western bourgeois prejudice.

Carter pressured Iran to allow for "free assembly" which meant that groups would be able to meet and agitate for the overthrow of the government. It goes without saying that such rights didn't exist in any Marxist or Islamic nation. The planned and predictable result of these policies was an escalation of opposition to the Shah, which would be viewed by his enemies as a weakness. A well-situated internal apparatus in Iran receiving its marching orders from the Kremlin egged on this growing opposition.

By the fall of 1977, university students, working in tandem with a Shi'ite clergy that had long opposed the Shah's modernizing policies, began a well coordinated and financed series of street demonstrations supported by a media campaign reminiscent of the 1947-1948 campaign against China's Chiang Ki Shek in favor of the "agrarian reformer" Mao tse Tung. At this point the Shah was unable to check the demonstrators, who were instigating violence as a means of inflaming the situation and providing their media stooges with atrocity propaganda. Rumors were circulating amongst Iranians that the CIA under the orders of President Carter organized these demonstrations.

In November 1977, the Shah and his Empress, Farah Diba, visited the White House where they were met with hostility. They were greeted by nearly 4,000 Marxist-led Iranian students, many wearing masks, waving clubs, and carrying banners festooned with the names of Iranian terrorist organizations. The rioters were allowed within 100 feet of the White House where they attacked other Iranians and Americans gathered to welcome the Shah. Only 15 were arrested and quickly released. Inside the White House, Carter pressured the Shah to implement even more radical changes. Meanwhile, the Soviets were mobilizing a campaign of propaganda, espionage, sabotage, and terror in Iran. The Shah was being squeezed on two sides.

In April 1978, Moscow would instigate a bloody coup in Afghanistan and install the communist puppet Nur Mohammad Taraki. Taraki would proceed to call for a "jihad" against the "Ikhwanu Shayateen" which translates into "brothers of devils," a label applied to opponents of the new red regime in Kabul and to the Iranian government. Subversives and Soviet-trained agents swarmed across the long Afghanistan/Iran border to infiltrate Shi'ite mosques and other Iranian institutions. By November 1978, there was an estimated 500,000 Soviet backed Afghanis in Iran where, among other activities, they set up training camps for terrorists.

Khomeini, a 78-year-old Shi'ite cleric whose brother had been imprisoned as a result of activities relating to his Iranian Communist party affiliations, and who had spent 15 years in exile in Ba'th Socialist Iraq, was poised to return. In exile, Khomeini spoke of the creation of a revolutionary Islamic republic, which would be anti-Western, socialist, and with total power in the hands of an ayatollah. In his efforts to violently overthrow the government of Iran, Khomeini received the full support of the Soviets.

Nureddin Klanuri, head of the Iranian Communist Tudeh Party, in exile in East Berlin, stated, "The Tudeh Party approves Ayatollah Khomeini's initiative in creating the Islamic Revolutionary Council. The ayatollah's program coincides with that of the Tudeh Party." Khomeini's closest advisor, Sadegh Ghothzadeh, was well known as a revolutionary with close links to communist intelligence. In January 1978, Pravda, the official Soviet organ, officially endorsed the Khomeini revolution.

American leaders were also supporting Khomeini. After the Pravda endorsement, Ramsey Clark, who served as Attorney General under President Lyndon B. Johnson, held a press conference where he reported on a trip to Iran and a Paris visit with Khomeini. He urged the US government to take no action to help the Shah so that Iran "could determine it's own fate." Clark played a behind the scenes role influencing members of Congress to not get involved in the crisis. Perhaps UN Ambassador Andrew Young best expressed the thinking of the left at the time when he stated that, if successful, Khomeini would "eventually be hailed as a saint."

Khomeini was allowed to seize power in Iran and, as a result, we are now reaping the harvest of anti-American fanaticism and extremism. Khomeini unleashed the hybrid of Islam and Marxism that has spawned suicide bombers and hijackers. President Jimmy Carter, and the extremists in his administration are to blame and should be held accountable.

Source: http://www.iranianvoice.org/article774.html

inkling_revival
inkling_revival writes: Monday, February, 12, 2007 11:29 AM
Ben the liar
How many times do we have to hear the same, tired lies over and over and over from these grotesquely dishonest leftists?
============================================
inkling_revival writes:Monday, February, 12, 2007 9:08 AM
sashal
There's nothing new about a leftist hurling insults at conservatives in response to a cogently-argued point. It seems to be all your side is capable of.
================================================

Wow, in just under 2 hours and 20 minutes- you proved this statment to be about your self-

good job.

Ben's confusion
you said:
"Bush signing an executive order is speculation?
Are you serious? Your not being serious. "

If you look closely you will see that a word precedes that statement - Fact. Speculation precedes all the garbage you tried to infer from the EO.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste -- read the whole post.

inkling_revival
inkling_revival writes: Monday, February, 12, 2007 11:29 AM

Lie 3) "Bush lied multiple times about the Wiretapping."

This is not the first time that a Republican is charged with "lying" for refusing to reveal classified information. Of course, if he DOES reveal classified information, it's against the law.
=======================================

It was against the law period. Not to mention unnecessary.

Ben
Thanks -

I also read both articles you linked and I have to disagree with the first as dangerously naive due to a point in the second: Moderate Imams/Mullahs/Islamic teachers keep their mouths shut. All too often out of fear of the extremists.

Too bad.

inkling_revival
inkling_revival writes: Monday, February, 12, 2007 11:29 AM
Lie 2) "Cheney is the first V.P. in Our History that the Governmental Accountability Office had to sue in order to disclose information from his office."

Cheney was the first VP in our history who had to defend against this unconstitutional incursion. And you know it.
====================================================
Dated Nov. 2005. And, no I don’t know those things you say. The last I heard, the S.C. did not say anything about this. What did they say? Who was in the meetings? What was the policy discussed in the meetings?

This is some investigative journalism that answered a few of those questions, but nothing that I can find suggest we know what went on those meetings.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/15/AR2005111501842.html

So, if I’m lying, show me the S.C. case you speak of. There should be the opinions on Findlaw- I’m sure you already have it though – right? After all, your sure I’m lying.

inkling_revival
inkling_revival writes: Monday, February, 12, 2007 11:29 AM

Lie 1) "We still do not know the members of Cheney’s “Energy Task Force” meeting. He took that to the S.C. to prevent our ability of oversight as part of his “Unitary President” theory."

Cleverly leaving out the fact -- and it is a fact -- that the Supreme Court, even before the appointments of Roberts and Alito, agreed with the Vice President that the claim was an unconstitutional incursion into the Executive's constitutional prerogatives.

Sorry, I used the wrong accusation in that last post:
========================================================
Dated Nov. 2005. And, no I don’t know those things you say. The last I heard, the S.C. did not say anything about this. What did they say? Who was in the meetings? What was the policy discussed in the meetings?

This is some investigative journalism that answered a few of those questions, but nothing that I can find suggest we know what went on those meetings.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/15/AR2005111501842.html

So, if I’m lying, show me the S.C. case you speak of. There should be the opinions on Findlaw- I’m sure you already have it though – right? After all, your sure I’m lying.

Moderate Hick
Moderate Hick writes: Monday, February, 12, 2007 11:56 AM
Ben's confusion
you said:
"Bush signing an executive order is speculation?
Are you serious? Your not being serious. "

If you look closely you will see that a word precedes that statement - Fact. Speculation precedes all the garbage you tried to infer from the EO.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste -- read the whole post.
========================================
Hey, do you ever watch David Letterman? He has this little episode where he will run a speech of someone, anyone, usually bush, when what they are saying makes no sense. But that is not that point here.

It is titled, “What.”

That is what I thought after reading this post.

Moderate Hick
So, where was my speculation?
That he signed it or that it gave Presidents the power to prevent us from ever hearing their tapes, or seeing their internal documents?

Because that is fact.

Where was the speculation?

thank you drive by posting
what conservatives want to do is blame everything on their fellow americans who disagree with them.

we are in this together.

Ben's reading comprehension
You may want to start with hooked on phonics - can't dumb it down much further for you but i'll try once more

when someone places a word with a colon following it such as

Fact:

you can assume that the person is stating an established fact

after that sentence a word with a colon following it such as

Speculation:

you can assume that anything after that colon is unsubstantiated and without proof, such as your statements were.

I know your head probably hurts now but read it a couple of times and think about the hooked on phonics suggestion.

Dash42
Dash42 writes: Monday, February, 12, 2007 11:59 AM
Ben
Thanks -

I also read both articles you linked and I have to disagree with the first as dangerously naive due to a point in the second: Moderate Imams/Mullahs/Islamic teachers keep their mouths shut. All too often out of fear of the extremists.

Too bad.
========================================
Well, the first was really used because it originated from here. I am just glad to see someone firmly stating that not all Arabs are our enemy. (Even if all us liberals and progressives are- joking)

The distinction between the terrorist like Bin Laden and the rest of the people there is refreshing to see. Should we trust- absolutely not, but we must engage them. Even the ones we don’t like, if for no other reason, than to show the moderates there that we are tying to use methods that will benefit them.

Some one earlier mentioned the people of Iran wanting to be with us. That is true. Iran has a young population. There has been for the last 2 decades a movement to a more moderate democratic way- but they still have the hardliners to deal with.

Positive change is slow. What we are doing now will only ensure more aggression and more terrorist.

Well, the first was really used because it originated from here.

Moderate Hick
Moderate Hick writes: Monday, February, 12, 2007 12:17 PM
Ben's reading comprehension
You may want to start with hooked on phonics - can't dumb it down much further for you but i'll try once more

when someone places a word with a colon following it such as

Fact:

you can assume that the person is stating an established fact

after that sentence a word with a colon following it such as

Speculation:

you can assume that anything after that colon is unsubstantiated and without proof, such as your statements were.

I know your head probably hurts now but read it a couple of times and think about the hooked on phonics suggestion.
======================================
I guess your tired of seeing the facts- so start the bashing..

Cool. I am fine with that.

It is very telling of you...

Allah = God
DavidMac writes:
Allah and Mohammad were puking cowards who slaughtered women and children because they're easier targets than soldiers.
==============================================
Allah is Arabic for God, and refers to the same God as worshipped by Christians and Jews. Abraham (the patriarch of Jews/Christians/Muslims) had a child (Ishamael) with his wife's slave Hagar. Some Muslim believe that they are decendents of Ishmael while others say it is Shem, the grandson of Noah.

inkling revival
Oh inkling, you kidder you. Turn your thought back to Mike Adam’s column of 2/8. Blue Bustard was insulting me instead of refuting me. You sided with BB instead of calling him out on his behavior. In light of this, you choose to call me a hypocrite. I’m not using the ‘everybody does the same defense’. I was actually pointing out your own hypocrisy but trying to be a gentleman about it.

Yes, it would be nice if it were possible for every liberal to live for just 10 minutes in a conservative's shoes, and see themselves as they're seen. It would be nice if conservatives could do like wise. It would be even nicer if you could possessed the qualities you wish others had and realized that yes, you too sound like that all the time

Ben's 12 Step Denial Program
you said:
"I guess your tired of seeing the facts- so start the bashing.."

That would be appropriate if you had presented any facts other than the fact he signed an executive order.

re: religiouslib
Well, what I would say is what our culture wants to do is blame everything on somebody.

To me that is a liberal mind set.

I believe in competition. Competition by mud-slinging the other guy is weak and never produces anything..

It is better to build the better car and let people *want* the better car rather than to *rely soley* on saying how bad the other guy's car is.

Conservatives need to compete and lead by example and deeds ultimately. The strategic leadership failure of conservatives since 2000 has been to transition from a negative campaign against liberals to building a better political car.

All the corruption has made the Republican indistinguishable from their Democratic predecessors. Newt Gingrich said it in 1994, that Republicans needed to set a higher standard, but Republicans couldn't live it. Who's fault is that? Democrats?

The Democrats are going to hammer on Republicans for all the billions of dollars unaccounted for in Iraq.

What is the Republican clarion call to the main stream American? Fiscal responsibility and military responsibility. Well, Republicans have given Democrats a big fat Christmast present called Iraq that allows Democrats enough *facts* to dispel those notions.

How will Republicans respound? By admitting failures and taking responsibility? Or by being liberal victims.

We are about to find out.

Arms for hostages
Kimberly writes:
George H.W. Bush participated in negotiations with Iran’s radical regime in 1980, behind President Jimmy Carter’s back, with the goal of arranging for 52 American hostages to be released after Bush and Ronald Reagan were sworn in as Vice President and President, respectively.

In exchange, the Republicans agreed to let Iran obtain U.S.-manufactured military supplies through Israel. The Iranians kept their word, releasing the hostages immediately upon Reagan’s swearing-in on Jan. 20, 1981.

Over the next few years, the Republican-Israel-Iran weapons pipeline operated mostly in secret...
===================================================
The Algiers Accords were signed on 1/19/1981 by Warren Christopher, CARTER’S Deputy Secretary of State; hence it was not Reagan making a back-room deal behind Carter’s back. Carter agreed to leave Iran alone and give them the money that was frozen. That is why the hostages were released.

Arms sales to Iran began in 1983 in a stupid attempt to get Iranian help in releasing 6 American hostages taken by Hezbollah. There were no arms sales to Iran before then.

"Traditional Muslims"?
You mean "Moderate"? As we have seen, there are about as many "Moderate" muslims as white hairs on a black dog.

Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
tanabear writes:

The better question to ask is if the Soviets did not invade Afghanistan in 1979 would 911 still have happened? We helped fund the mujahedeen, by giving money to Pakistan and helping to create their ISI.
=======================================
Carter’s backstab of the Shah, and wimpy response to the hostage taking is probably why the Soviets felt they could invade Afghanistan with impunity (at least from the US). Since WWII Communism mostly advanced during Democrat administrations. South Vietnam happened under a Republican because the Democrats in Congress refused to authorize support (as had been promised) when the North invaded. As a result 3 million people were slaughtered in Vietnam and Cambodia.

Yo Ben
You must have been asleep during the Clinton years.

inkling_revival
inkling_revival writes: Monday, February, 12, 2007 11:29 AM

Lie 2) "Cheney is the first V.P. in Our History that the Governmental Accountability Office had to sue in order to disclose information from his office."

Cheney was the first VP in our history who had to defend against this unconstitutional incursion. And you know it.

===========================================
Inkling- get an inkling...

GAO- From the Comptroller General- http://www.gao.gov/cghome/2001/

Chronology of the GAO’s Attempts to Obtain Information from the National
Energy Policy Development Group
http://www.gao.gov/cghome/2001/aug18chron.pdf


http://www.gao.gov/cghome/2001/aug17let.pdf
If GAO is not given an opportunity to inspect the record during this time period, the Comptroller General may file a report to the President, the Congress, and other executive branch officials. Twenty days after filing the report, the Comptroller General may bring a civil action in the district court of the
United States for the District of Columbia to require the official involved to produce the withheld records.
Page 4 B-287944

As this letter makes clear, as Comptroller General of the United States, I have broad discretion to conduct audits, investigations, and examinations of executive branch activities either at the request of Congress or on my own authority. Furthermore, we do not agree that disclosure of the limited factual and non-deliberative information we are seeking, such as the names of participants at meetings, would .unconstitutionally interfere with the functioning of the executive branch.. In support of this proposition, the Vice President.s August 2 letter
states that .preservation of the ability of the executive branch to function effectively requires respecting the confidentiality of communications among a President, a Vice President, the President.s other senior advisers and others.. However, as we have made clear in several discussions with the Vice President.s representatives, we are not asking for any communications involving the President, the Vice President, or the President.s senior advisers. We are simply asking for facts that the Vice President, as Chair of the NEPDG, or
others representing the group, would be in a position to provide to GAO. These include the names of attendees, dates and locations, and the subjects of the meetings….

The information we are seeking is of the type that has been commonly provided to GAO for many years spanning several administrations. Furthermore, in prior GAO reviews of working groups established by the President, we have received information on participation by outside parties. Most recently, GAO reviewed activities of the White House China Trade Relations Working Group, which was established at the request of President Clinton in the exercise of his Constitutional powers.

Kaos Klerik
Well said. Talk about an "inconvenient truth"!

Ralph
Ralph writes: Monday, February, 12, 2007 12:59 PM
Yo Ben
You must have been asleep during the Clinton years.
============================

Nope, I watched that witch hunt closely. After four investigations, it was a tabloid affair about consensual sex. Even the lies they claim he made were so obscure that you can’t tell what the actual lie is suppose to be.

Unlike any court proceedings in the country, the Impeachment had the defendant defending himself before the prosecution made their case. This was a great disservice to our legal system, but a great way to spin.

Talk about a waste of time and money- but the Neo-conservatives had to build a case, no matter how flimsy it was.

rightviewpoint
Nice recounting of events in Iran and Afghanistan.

Informative, accurate.

I urge all to read it...might even learn something.


Moderate Hick
Moderate Hick writes: Monday, February, 12, 2007 12:33 PM
Ben's 12 Step Denial Program
you said:
"I guess your tired of seeing the facts- so start the bashing.."

That would be appropriate if you had presented any facts other than the fact he signed an executive order.

==========================

Ever thought about changing your name to fanatic Hick. It would fit you better.
I guess news articles describing the events are not good enough..
What would you like; we meet at the White House and look at the original? I would bet you would still not believe.

You have preconceived notions and you don’t want your bubble burst.
Its okay- I understand.

I guess those GAO reports are not FACTS either. Those are mere figments of my imaginations. The GAO is just a liberal conspiracy to hold down the conservatives.

Phylo
Your willingness to (in the words of my favorite historical figure)"strain out a gnat and swallow a camel" when dealing with historical facts is breathtaking. Your remembrance of history is on a par with those who deny the holocaust. If you want to assign blame for current events, then have the intellectual integrity to look at the historical roots causes without viewing the events through the prism of political prejudice, so obvious in your posts. Do you even have that capability?

9/11 was an an act of war
The libs are hopelessly stupid, or stupidly ignorant. They do not or do not want to realize that we are at war.

The enemy's modus operandi for waging it is clever:
the transnational organization..be it Al Queda, Hezzbollah, or whatever name you want to give it.

They are given refuge by countries that favor their cause. These countries are frankly using these organizations as their proxies. So Syria, Iraq and
any other country have a alter ego to wage war, and
deny responsibility.

Bush was right to go to Iraq, and to me the Weapns of Mass Destruction was not with out some
basis (ask the millions of Iranians that he gassed druing the late eighties).

You think that Iraq wants nuclear power for electricy, for that matter, North Korea is in the
same category.

The libs should not be let off the hook. They
just refuse to admit that they are on the hook!

Hey inkling_revival
Kaos Klerik writes: Monday, February, 12, 2007 12:53 PM
Soviet invasion of Afghanistan
tanabear writes:

The better question to ask is if the Soviets did not invade Afghanistan in 1979 would 911 still have happened? We helped fund the mujahedeen, by giving money to Pakistan and helping to create their ISI.
=======================================
Carter’s backstab of the Shah, and wimpy response to the hostage taking is probably why the Soviets felt they could invade Afghanistan with impunity (at least from the US). Since WWII Communism mostly advanced during Democrat administrations. South Vietnam happened under a Republican because the Democrats in Congress refused to authorize support (as had been promised) when the North invaded. As a result 3 million people were slaughtered in Vietnam and Cambodia.

=======================================


While I know you didn't write this, I was wondering- do you consider this fact?

The USSR- PROBABLY INVADED.... fact?

Communism spread under Democrats? Fact?
Wasn't it Truman that stopped them in Korea after the Russians sided with the N. Korea? Kind of shots a whole in that fact. Does it not?

Ralph
Ralph writes: Monday, February, 12, 2007 1:14 PM
Phylo
Your willingness to (in the words of my favorite historical figure)"strain out a gnat and swallow a camel" when dealing with historical facts is breathtaking. Your remembrance of history is on a par with those who deny the holocaust. If you want to assign blame for current events, then have the intellectual integrity to look at the historical roots causes without viewing the events through the prism of political prejudice, so obvious in your posts. Do you even have that capability?

===================================

So, should we or should we not look at things like Iran Contra?

The United States arming both sides in the Middle East, does that play a role in what is happening today?

I wonder why DD never talks about that. I mean, certainly arming both sides of a war brought about hatred for us more than, say, Hollywood.

Or, are the only Pertinent facts the ones that help the Republican Party?

Ben
See that's the problem. It was not about sex. It was what he said to the grand jury. It's called perjury. His own appointed judge removed his law license for it. Do I have to remind you about the selling of our missile high tech to the Chi-Coms authorized by Clinton, Charley Tree, the admitted broker of donations to the candidacy of Clinton and the Chi-coms. Unlike the left, I am suspicious of any government (especially one who calls us an enemy) donating money to anyone running for the highest office in the land. Forget everything else this slimeball did, how do you guys just blow by that one?

spitfire9447
spitfire9447 writes: Monday, February, 12, 2007 1:16 PM
9/11 was an an act of war
The libs are hopelessly stupid, or stupidly ignorant. They do not or do not want to realize that we are at war.

The enemy's modus operandi for waging it is clever:
the transnational organization..be it Al Queda, Hezzbollah, or whatever name you want to give it.

They are given refuge by countries that favor their cause. These countries are frankly using these organizations as their proxies. So Syria, Iraq and
any other country have a alter ego to wage war, and
deny responsibility.

Bush was right to go to Iraq, and to me the Weapns of Mass Destruction was not with out some
basis (ask the millions of Iranians that he gassed druing the late eighties).
=============================================

We could have asked them while we were allied with them, meaning Iraq, while Saddam was using chemical weapons on the Iranians.

Why didn't it bother us then?

temporal powers
D'Souza appears to be on the campaign trail. In professing that liberals are responsible for 9/11 (which was the result of foreign decades of intervention in the affairs of other countries, and a symbol of the rejection of Western Culture)he is only increasing the rift in american society by defining the left and the right as opposing forces. In fact, the poles of the political spectrum are temporal in nature. They balance one another. Conservatives left alone would continue to cling to exploitive imperialism in order to sell Liberals their consumer dreams. Liberals would force us all to believe that we need a gay, female President and that we should all be single and promiscuous in new york. Right is not right and the left has not left. In other words, as Americans we have a duty to "strive for understanding; more than being understood."

Blame game
You can argue all day (and you do)about who is to blame for what is going on.
I am more concerned with the future.
What decisions will all these "moderate Muslims" make when the time comes to choose?
If, as some believe, Muslims have the ambition to take over Western Civilization in the next couple of decades, will all these "moderates" suddenly go against what their religion preaches?
They can claim "peaceful" all they want, and maybe they feel that way now, but if they lead their lives by the Koran, how will they decide when it comes to a choice between their religion and Western values?

P.S.
If I were a Muslim in America today (I am not!) I would be quietly looking forward to the day when "my values" win out over "their values".

Ben
It's unfortunate to have to ask the question, but in view of the leaks from national security agencies for political reasons, is the GAO officer a republican or dem? He can say that Cheney went against generally accepted policy, but how do we know for sure? If the GAO feels Cheney violated the law, then take him to court. Heck Scooter Libby is being crucified by a special prosecutor for nothing, surely they can get Cheney for doing "something" so egregious as your charges.

driveby
you are a voice of reason on this board.

i will concede that at times liberals are just as guilty of this as conservatives.

i guess my basic reaction to this board is the hatred i see towards liberals. its like rather than direct energy towards real enemies some conservatives want to hate other americans. this i will never understand.

i know someone on this board will say "well what about the bush haters on the left" and my response is that they are wrong also but i believe that most liberals don't hate bush just his policies.

Burnso
Well said. You did a far better job of recalling the events leading OBL to believe he could get away with 9/11 attack than I. My over ten year conversations with an honest to goodness muhjahidin fighter who resided here in the U.S, confirms what you and D/D say about how Islamo Nazis view us.

Ben, learn to do your own damn research
I have a freakin' job, mook, and can't do your damn homework for you.

The actual case was decided by the US District Court of DC in the spring of 2005; the Supreme Court decision in 2004 remanded the case to that court. The court ruled unanimously -- UNANIMOUSLY, jerk -- in favor of the Vice President.

Here's a citation for you to start doing your own homework, IDIOT.

http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/may2005/2005-05-10-10.asp

Ralph
Ralph writes: Monday, February, 12, 2007 1:24 PM
Ben
See that's the problem. It was not about sex. It was what he said to the grand jury. It's called perjury. His own appointed judge removed his law license for it. Do I have to remind you about the selling of our missile high tech to the Chi-Coms authorized by Clinton, Charley Tree, the admitted broker of donations to the candidacy of Clinton and the Chi-coms. Unlike the left, I am suspicious of any government (especially one who calls us an enemy) donating money to anyone running for the highest office in the land. Forget everything else this slimeball did, how do you guys just blow by that one?

================================================

Yea, I know, Clinton lied about sex and people died. I won’t defend Clinton’s trying to keep his personal life personal, but I will quibble over the definition of perjury.

Perjury is a legal term that means lying about an important part of the case at hand. So, yes, while Clinton lied- it was not perjury.

Starr investigated four cased- Whitewater, Travelgate, FBI Files, Vincent Foster:

Not one of these investigations is mentioned in the Starr Report:
Starr Report Table of Contents: http://icreport.access.gpo.gov/report/2toc.htm


It was a witch hunt. They were determined to get their man. And they did, in a sordid affair. But nothing offered by Starr lived up to the intentions of the framers when they debated the impeachment clause.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
And you say: [Do I have to remind you about the selling of our missile high tech to the Chi-Coms authorized by Clinton]

My answer is yes. Remind me of this with special attention to how and why the Republican held congress and senate approved it.

Also, I would like you to research back to when Bush Sr. also started sales of technology to China. While doing this, look up the history of Neil Bush being the special economic emissary to China during all this time- meaning while both Bush Sr and Clinton were in office.

Then, if you have time, maybe a thesis on why and how it is better foreign policy to isolate nations that don’t agree with us on every issue is better than a policy of engagement. The use of Reagan’s policy towards Russia at the end of the Cold War would be a good example of how engagement works.

Thaks in advance

Ralph
Ralph writes: Monday, February, 12, 2007 1:37 PM
Ben
It's unfortunate to have to ask the question, but in view of the leaks from national security agencies for political reasons, is the GAO officer a republican or dem? He can say that Cheney went against generally accepted policy, but how do we know for sure? If the GAO feels Cheney violated the law, then take him to court. Heck Scooter Libby is being crucified by a special prosecutor for nothing, surely they can get Cheney for doing "something" so egregious as your charges.
=========================

I think that day is approaching.

inkling_revival
inkling_revival writes: Monday, February, 12, 2007 1:56 PM
Ben, learn to do your own damn research
I have a freakin' job, mook, and can't do your damn homework for you.

The actual case was decided by the US District Court of DC in the spring of 2005; the Supreme Court decision in 2004 remanded the case to that court. The court ruled unanimously -- UNANIMOUSLY, jerk -- in favor of the Vice President.

Here's a citation for you to start doing your own homework, IDIOT.

http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/may2005/2005-05-10-10.asp
=====================


I'm sorry, but you are the one that made the claim- why shouldn't you show it?

Jerk- are you having a bad day?

Now, answer my question- what is there to be secret about an energy policy.

And oh, p.i.s.s t.a.r.d. (see how easy name calling is) 7-2 is not unanimously.

AND- this is not the case we were talking about. This is a case brought on by environmental groups- not the GAO.

inkling_revival
A better article to read:
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20040702.html


[The high Court is, in fact, remarkably unsophisticated in the workings of the modern presidency. As in Cheney v. District Court (and countless other rulings), the Court talks of "afford[ing] Presidential confidentiality the greatest protection." But in the end, the Court's decisions have merely been license for presidents so disposed to maintain the shroud of secrecy -- at the expense of the accountability that is so essential to democracy.

The Chief Executive (and the Executive Branch) often assert that forcing openness on them would have a negative impact on their ability to carry out their responsibilities under Article II of the Constitution. But in fact, the reverse is true. Openness would merely encourage conscientious governance. And closed doors encourage just the opposite.]



inkling_revival
Secret government and Democracy cannot be reconciled.

inkling_revival
More readings on the topic:


Part 1
SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT ENRON'S CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTIONS:
Did Enron Successfully Buy Influence With The Money It Spent?
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20020118.html

Part 2
GAO V. CHENEY IS BIG-TIME STALLING:
The Vice President Can Win Only If We Have Another Bush v. Gore -like Ruling
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20020201.html


The Main Point
Let's get back to D'Souza's conclusion that we have to side with moderate Muslims. I assume that "traditional" Muslim is the same as "moderate" Muslim.

I doubt that you can find enough Muslims willing to stand up and form a moderate Muslim organization.

Even if you could, radical Muslim imams will brand a new moderate Muslim sect and Muslim individuals supporting the US as heretical, which is punishable by death under Sharia law. It is yet another talking point for the radical's rhetoric that the US is a threat to the Islamic world. Wouldn't that be another reason to attack us?

Some Conservatives have been programmed
How many Conservatives do you hear calling the left unpatriotic. How many on the left do you hear calling the Conservatives Hitler, Nazi's, terrorist, and unpatriotic. Get the picture. It's OK for the left to call the Conservatives whatever they like and get away with it, but don't let one Conservatives call anyone on the left anything or it's time to resign. You have to get into the minds of your enemy to know how they think, in order to know the extremes they will go to kill you. We know your not saying the American people caused 9/11. We know exactly what your saying. We have been fighting this propaganda war from the viewpoint of the Democrats and the media. Forget the facts. Whatever claims the Democrats make, the Conservatives take it from there and run with it as if it were the facts. The polls are perfect examples of this. Polls from Newsweek, MSNBC, CNN, New York Times, USAToday, ABC, NBC,CBS, are polls taken from voters on the left, and Conservatives handle these polls, as if they speak for the Republicans, Conservatives, and Christian Right. It's been the left who's been trying to put a gay in every pot in American. It's been the left who has been trying to wipe God of the minds of every American. It's the left of takes up for sex offenders when caught, and adds the victim stayed there with their kidnapper, because they were treated better there then with the parents. With the left, their always against law and order. Their always for felons in jail. To them patriotism is bashing your country, President Bush, and the troops. Don't ask anyone on the left whats the terrorist going to do after Iraq. After our troops leave what are the terrorist going to do. Will they take up playing baseball, basketball, or football. Instead the left comes up with hate Bush rhetoric, because thats all they know about this war against terrorism. The left has taught their supporters it's more important to hate Bush, remove our troops, and it's better to kneel and live, instead of standing and protecting this country. The left never acknowledged their complaints, rhetoric, and propaganda were influencing the enemy, to educate them on how to kill more to demoralize the American people for a quick withdrawal from Iraq. The left worldwide has always made that grave mistake in thinking their constant complainin