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Thursday, April 02, 2009
Diana West :: Townhall.com Columnist
What Do You Mean 'If We Ever Want to Leave' Afghanistan?
by Diana West
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Beware, America. You are about to be duped by an alliance of Obama-niks and Bush-ites who, together, are laying the groundwork for nation-building in Afghanistan -- nation-building in Iraq having worked out so well (insert acid shot of sarcasm here). Only they are not going to call it "nation-building."

Worse, they are forging ahead without heeding the remedial lesson of Iraq: No matter how many American dollars spent, no matter how many American lives lost, it's not possible to transform an Islamic republic that enshrines Islamic law (Sharia) into an ally against Islamic jihad, even if Islamic jihad is euphemized as "extremism," "man-caused disasters" or "overseas contingency operations." That's because Islamic jihad is ultimately waged to extend Sharia. See the disconnect? Good. That's more than our experts can do, which is why it now looks as if we're going to give this flawed strategy another multi-trillion dollar try in Afghanistan.

This is what I heard at what you might call a "war is the answer" teach-in, Washington-style, at the Mayflower Hotel this week. There, a conference sponsored by the newly formed neoconservative think tank, the Foreign Policy Initiative, brought an audience of media and policy types up to war-in-Afghanistan speed. And, as usual in Washington, they did it without ever once mentioning "Islam" (until I asked a quick question at the end).

This was neither a secret session of the so-called "neocon cabal" -- although some charter members were present -- nor an Obama White House war room presentation. Still, I caught the faintest whiff of backroom smoke in talk of just how "clever," as Carnegie's Ashley Tellis put it, the Obama team was for packaging a nation-building agenda in the terminology of fighting Al Qaeda, a far narrower and presumably more popular objective. Robert Kagan noted that President Obama may not be talking about democratization, but his goals are similar. Hence, the warm enthusiasm for the Obama Afghan policy from such Iraq War proponents as Kagan, his brother and Iraq "surge" co-author Frederick Kagan, the Weekly Standard's William Kristol, and by John Nagl, a co-author of the U.S. Army's counterinsurgency manual and fellow of the Center for a New American Security, a left-leaning think tank associated with Obama defense policy circles.

And what are Obama's goals? Below the headline news of targeting Al Qaeda, and expanding Afghan police and army (but not enough, speakers agreed), the president spoke last week of advancing "security, opportunity and justice, not just in Kabul but from the bottom up in the provinces." That's a lot of security, opportunity and justice to advance even for Kabul, where the supreme court there recently upheld Pervez Kambakhsh's 20-year prison term for "blasphemy," and Afghan President Hamid Karzai recently signed a Sharia-influenced law that legalizes Shiite marital rape, among other anti-women measures, to curry favor with Shiite clerics. (One opponent said the law was "worse than during the Taliban.")

President Obama also discussed the importance of "not (turning) a blind eye to the corruption that causes Afghans to lose faith in their own leaders." The fact that Afghan corruption -- an endemic, culture-based, veritable Afghan national pastime -- is now considered a U.S. problem is testament to the utopian lure of nation-building.

Question is, will the American people support this wild mongoose chase after six extremely mixed -- no, failed -- years of nation-building in Iraq? There, despite post-surge security gains, the nation we have built remains "fragile" and "uneven," according to the most recent Pentagon report, even as the United States prepares its exit. Had the State Department not granted Iraq a waiver, it would also be designated a Country of Particular Concern (CPC), the worst rating for religious freedom violations. Meanwhile, U.S.-liberated Iraq remains an enthusiastic participant in the Arab boycott of Israel, and an OPEC member that never even let a U.S. humvee fill up for free. And Iraq consistently votes with the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) against the United States at the United Nations. Never mind -- what's a few trillion dollars among non-allies?

Onto Afghanistan, where we are told U.S. national security depends on denying sanctuary to Al Qaeda and related jihadists. Meanwhile, the world is riddled with jihadism in the form of active agents, sleeper cells, propagandists and sympathizers from the Bekaa Valley to Belgium, from Iran to London, from Saudi Arabia to South Florida. Nearly eight years after 9/11, the United States still has unsecured borders, but it is Afghanistan where we must establish security and clean government -- for our own good.

Why? Frederick Kagan said "we have to establish the legitimacy of the Afghan government (because) that's how you end an insurgency." John Nagl was more emphatic still, stating, "If we ever want to leave, we have to build an Afghan government that can accomplish those goals (of good government) on its own."

If we ever want to leave?

During a coffee break, I asked military historian Frederick Kagan whether there was any successful historical model for this strategy. Ticking off a few non-matches including the Boer War in South Africa, Malaya, and civil war in El Salvador, he, a little sheepishly, offered Iraq.

Iraq?

Heaven help the United States.

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About The Author
Diana West is a contributing columnist for Townhall.com and author of the new book, The Death of the Grown-up: How America's Arrested Development Is Bringing Down Western Civilization.
 
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OK Dumbo, tell us
Why are you going in?

What is your exit strategy?

What are you going to use for money?

What are you going to use for military assets?

I don't necessarily disagree
as I think nation building like Germany and Japan after WW II, S. Korea, and the Philippines are fine.

The problem is when we don't put enough people on the ground and don't spend the money it needs.

But for O to somehow think Afghanistan is a better deal than Iraq, which he castigated endlessly, is a little like the pot calling the kettle black. Excuse any untoward imagery.

Iraq is at least an educated nation with great natural wealth in oil. Afghanistan is a mountainous anomaly with only two major highways: one north-south, one east-west and that aren't even open all the time.

When Alexander the Great went thrugh there, it was ruled by bandits and outlaws. The various warlords and drug dealers are little diffrerent, today.

The nation building will be esp. difficult as the best marketable crop is poppy for opium and heroin, and since the Big O doesn't want to legalize drugs, a really rational policy and one that would allow peasants in Columbia and Afghanistan to really support themselves, pretty soon we'll be hearing *quagmire* et. al. and whiny lib. analogies to Vietnam ad infinitum.

I doubt O has the fortiude or noral fibre of Bush to withstand any cricisim. O, as pres. of the US, got into a tiff with a radio host, for Goadssake.

O is very thin skinned and has an enormous intolerance for open and democratic disagreement. His Afghanistan policy is prob. doomed before anyone gets off the plane.

To plan
is to have a coherent thought process, which is not possible in this scatterbrained administration. They can't stay focused long enough to think past the end of their collective noses!

A little too pesimistic
Before I buy into any of the claims regarding the total farse in Iraq as described by Ms. West, I would need to get an off the record opinion from someone in the military.

As for why the situations are as they are in both Iraq and Afghanistan, it can be summed up in one word, "politics."

If the @#%!!$ politicians would have let our military fight a war instead of playing "good cop," we would have secured victory in both Iraq and Afghanistan by now.

Afghanistan is the last place
we need to be a democracy. They just aren't important enough, when freedom is under dire threat in places like Colombia, Cuba, and Congress.

We need to kill Osama bin Laden in his hiding place and get out. It should be extremely easy, as he's probably a guest of the Whitehouse now, laughing.




And for the record, I am NOT using Osama as a metaphor for our alleged president Hussein. President Hussein is his own metaphor.

renny, I disagree with you
Afghanistan was never much of anything. It is foolish to build them up when, even given thousands of years of continuous human habitation, that land hasn't sustained crap. The country's only purpose is to serve as a buffer to keep extremely powerful interests all over the planet at peace with each other.

Other than the above, Afghanistan never merited American attention until Islam began using it as a base to attack and murder those who will never submit to their heathen god. Once we kill all those people, or they are forced to submit to us in surrender, we should leave and never return.

That land and its people will never be able to sustain even the simplest of our advanced wonders that you would have us build there. And God forbid you somehow actually achieve your goal of industrializing and westernizing that state, because only a complex system of alliances has kept them independent for the last few centuries, and that would undoubtedly tip the scale towards their neighbors choosing invasion over humiliation.

From a Tactical Perspective
Afghanistan is a totally different problem tactically than Iraq. The mountainous terrain makes logistical operations very difficult, and air power means very little, since it is nearly suicidal to fly helicopters into valleys. To clear and hold ground will require many more ground troops than we used in Iraq, and causalities will be much higher. ‘Hearts and minds’ operations will help, but it will be very difficult to provide security for the areas that align themselves with us. If we were to try to get Afghanistan to the point Iraq is today, it would likely take a decade or more and the cost in lives and money would be high. I don’t see any good chances of that happening. I doubt that this administration has the determination to see this through, especially when the public grows tired of it.

This is why...
... we should not fight undeclared wars. These "police actions" allow congress to abdicate it's responsibility. It is the same mentality that has evolved with charity. Just give money and forget about it. It is always wise, when deciding what power the president and executive branch should be allowed to wield, to remember that the next election could put somebody in office that you cannot stand. This is why we need to get back to enforcing a constitutionally limited government. Those who liked Bill Clinton as president and thought he should have more power, soon regretted any excessive presidential powers when G W Bush became president. Those who thought Bush should have more power now suffer under the realm of Obama.

Too snarky
Lets see. Someone who's contribution to life on earth is scribbling wants to pick at those who sacrifice to help the poorest country. Very unbecoming, if I do say so.

THE VIETNAM DUET
Obama is the supra-LBJ about to give us Vietnam in double doses.

who exactly....
is sacrificing? CDertainly not the politiicans that lead us all into these misadventures. They not only retain their domestic perks, but have an excuse to go fact-finding abroad or meet in swanky soires like the recent G20 summit. The ones sacrificing are of course the soldiers at the point of the sword and the taxpayers who ultimately pay for this one way or the other.

If you or anybody else wants to sacrifice to help some deserving individual or country, you are free to do so. We don't need government to coerce us into helping anybody, some of whom don't want to be helped and others who won't change their ways even with help.

yes, but
If the Kagan's are ultimately happy with Obama's approach to Afghanistan then Afghanistan is likely to be a failure. West is right that Afghanistan is not going to be the kind of ally that the neo-cons want in any short term horizen. The same is true of Iraq.

It is hard to know whether some stability can be gained by raising troop levels now as part of a plan to eventually pull out leaving something acceptable behind. Given that Obama inherited a bad situation I am willing to give him some time to make the best of it. Although it is the area that I most worry about him going off the tracks. that this is Obama's Vietnam is certainly not yet established. But it is a real possibility.

West's idea of the muslims under sharia law as a coherent system that is going to grow to threaten those of us in the west is actually rather undercut by the actual problems in Afghanistan, which is that the various muslim groups aren't even able to work together well enough to bring peace at home. It is a bit silly to think they are going to be able to skip that and move on to world domination.

?
"Question is, will the American people support this wild mongoose chase after six extremely mixed -- no, failed -- years of nation-building in Iraq?"

Comparing the neocon experiment in Iraq to the operation, mastermind of Petraeus, in Afghanistan, speaks volumes to the ignorance of this sentence. Afghanistan is a nation, with an elected head, however corrupt, and we are not nation building but helping give their fledgling democracy a chance to survive from a truly disgusting enemy, the Taliban. I think Petraeus can do some good there and has the right strategy, except this drone war part.

IT MAY ALREADY BE TOO LATE!
http://wehavenotime.blogtownhall.com

the problem with drive-by war
is that it just infuriates the local population, and accomplishes nothing else. the u.s. should either get out of afghanistan entirely, or deliver them an ultimatum: produce bin ladens head, or we kill every afghan. if we arent willing to do that, we should not be there. probably the latter. war is serious business, and our political establishment does not have the capability to take it seriously. the rule in this country should be that we are not willing to commit even one bullet, let alone a soldier, unless we are enraged enough to kill everyone in the offending country. if we stuck to that rule, we would have fewer wars, and we would also lose fewer wars.

Blind? or dumb?
Watch. Iraq will be having free elections in 10 years. Afghanistan with be split between the taliban and the russians ( invited in to cover our departure)

Dang, curmudgeon
" produce bin ladens head, or we kill every afghan"

Heavy! We shouldn't make any threats we won't fulfill, imho, and contemplating genocide is D-U-M-B.

In both Iraq & Afghanistan, we've made the mistake of using overwhelming force backed with underwhelming aid.

We ought to literally split our resources in half - one half for military might and the other half for rebuilding infrastructure and creating jobs for Afghans (not for the no-bid contractors of the US).

One truth about people is they will do what's in their self-interest. Jihad will subside when it makes more sense to take a job at the new hospital, school, power plant, road crew.

Afghanistan
After receiving massive aid, they’ll do what all previous countries have done when we stepped in to “aid”, they’ll turn on us like ungrateful curs and tell us to get out of Dodge pronto. The Afghans, however, are more prone to use the weaponry we gave them against us. Nice one, AGAIN, America!

Two problems with ANY concessions to islam are that: 1) The religion has numerous directives to extreme violence against non-believers (so called infidels). There is no compromise of any kind. Intolerance rules. And 2) Too often radical clerics are allowed to manipulate their congregation with dire consequences. The sheep (mostly uneducated) that are the congregation do not reign-in the radical elements and, in fact, condone and support the violence with their silence and near complete lack of condemnation.

My Simple View
My opinions about warfare started to coalesce after the Korean War ended. And you could say the final nail was laid when the Vietnam War ended. My belief is don't go to war, if you do not have the stomach to achieve success. The reason I say this has nothing to do with how important the goal is, but what the effects are, when you do not have the stomach to achieve success. Whenver, you go to war, and you do not have the stomach to achieve success, you tell every future adversary how to defeat the United States. That is what Ho Chi Minh believed and he was right. We demonstrate that whenever we start a fight and are not willing to achieve success. "If" we are not willing to achieve success, we should not even try. It sends the wrong message to any future adversary, becaus it tells them that all they have to do is inflict enough pain for a long enough period of time and they will succeed and the United States will have failed.

Dear Ms West
Have you ever been to Iraq? Have you ever talked to the GI? Have you ever done anything but scribble? Have you been to Afganastan? The people you talk about in this column have all spent time in both countrys. I have read thire books, and watched thire work succeed. I have family that have been there, and fight there, have you? The next time we go to war, should we just nuke it, kill everyone, or just destroy it and leave the place to its own devices? What people like you call nation building, is nothing more then finishingwhat you start. We can ether kill them all, become a empire and anex them, or help them set up something they control. Ms. West at least be honest about our opptions.
Kirk

Kirk, paranoidmystic et al...
Everybody agrees war is bad. The loony left seems to think it is the worst thing. The rest of us think there are things worse, but certainly not many. I think I can safely say that nobody around here, including Ms West, would question the valor and capability of America's troops. But many of us question the wisdom of entering into something as totally awful as war without a clear intent to win as decisively and as quickly as possible. Letting politicians lead us into a war and then turn it into a political hot potato is bad for the country and bad for the troops in harm's way. There is a cavalier attitude in Washington and throughout the land, that we have so much military capability, that we can go in somewhere and do anything we want anytime we want with no significant consequences. When it inevitably doesn't work out like that, politicians scramble to protect their political careers.

If we had a declaration of war, as called for in the constitution, the whole country would get behind the war or elect new congressmen to get us out. The liberal whiners and MSM could be rightfully prosecuted for sedition and treason. Generals would have the leeway to fight the war to win and if they were not capable, they would be replaced. Politics is a part of everything, but one hopes that this would minimize the politics and minimize the chances of getting into a war in the first place and allowing it to linger on in the second.

Again with the arrogance
The United Nations was left to lead in Afganistan. Now President Obama thinks it is only with the Americans in the lead that Afganistan can be saved.

Take a chill pill "O". The United Nations is fully capable for doing what is necessary. You send the money let them lead. You were the one who said America needs to change. Well allow the U.N. to do the job. Back off and listen instead of throwing rockets and bombs.
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