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Thursday, May 15, 2008
Diana West :: Townhall.com Columnist
Israel is Not a Freedom Franchise, Mr. President
by Diana West
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Don't know why I bother. The man is leaving office in eight months; his presidency noticeably marked by the uneven tread of the lame duck. But so long as George W. Bush is commander in chief, there remains something mesmerizing about the way he seems to experience his momentous tenure virtually unscratched, even ungrazed, by his many brushes (collisions) with history.

I'm not suggesting callousness on his part regarding American casualties in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan; or regarding American civilian casualties due to Islamic terrorism. I think he feels such losses very deeply. In fact, I think he feels everything very deeply. Whether the subject is his feelings about Mexican illegal aliens, the war in Iraq or on-off Supreme Court nominee Harriet Miers, I think Bush's presidency, at its base, has been an emotional presidency, more gut-driven and temporal than attuned to anything like that sweep of history you hear about.

I point this out on reading the president's remarks in Israel to mark the 60th anniversary of the nation's statehood.

"I suspect," Bush said, "if you looked back 60 years ago and tried to guess where Israel would be at that time, it would be hard to be able to project such a prosperous, hopeful land. No question people would have said, well, we'd be surrounded by hostile forces -- but I doubt people would have been able to see the modern Israel, which is one reason I bring such optimism to the Middle East, because what happened here is possible everywhere."

Let's run that last bit by again. The president says the singular experience of "modern Israel" is one reason for optimism in the Middle East "because what happened here (Israel) is possible everywhere."

The jaw drops. On recovery, I suppose the most direct response to this statement, better suited to a beauty-pageant Pollyanna than a war-scarred president, is: No, Mr. President. What happened in Israel is not possible everywhere. Just for starters, what happened in Israel happened to a people whose monotheism and ethics, as Martin Gilbert writes in "Churchill and the Jews," was, in Churchill's view, "a central factor in the evolution and maintenance of modern civilization" -- a central factor in liberty and democracy as the West still knows it.

This is not, to understate the case, something that may be said about the Islamic rest of the Middle East. Besides, what happened in Israel -- the modern incarnation of the ancient Jewish nation that today enshrines freedom of conscience, freedom of speech, rule of law, women's rights, etc. -- is also anathema (anti-Islamic) to the Islamic Middle East, which to this day seeks or plots Israel's annihilation, not in a what has become a sham territorial dispute, but rather to deny infidels (former dhimmis, to boot) a foothold in what Muslims regard as once-Muslim land.

To President Bush, though, the un-Islamic conditions culminating in an anti-Islamic event -- 60 years of infidel liberty -- constitute a pre-fab democracy franchise that might just as easily have opened up in Riyadh or Baghdad as in Tel Aviv. I think he sees it this way because, emotionally, he wants to see it this way.

So, why aren't we now celebrating 60 years of infidel-style liberty in Saudi Arabia or Iraq?

This must be an enduring puzzle to Bush, for just as he seems blind to the singular qualities of Judaism that root Israel within the Western tradition, he seems blind to the equally singular (but not overlapping) qualities of Islam that leave it outside. Distinguishing between the two traditions is the height of political incorrectness, let alone shattering to the multicultural vision of the Middle East that the Bush administration has made the basis of its democratization policy. All we need, the president will say just as he told Politico this week, is "the advance of freedom throughout the Middle East ... it's the best way to keep us secure."

Since the overthrow of Saddam Hussein in 2003, that "advance of freedom" has mainly empowered Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood -- not my idea of "secure." Of course, not my idea of "freedom," either. But we're supposed to forget the fact that Western-style freedom is actually antithetical to Islamic law. In fact, we're supposed to forget about Islamic law. Given the administration's new lexicon that quashes most official references to Islam, we're supposed to forget about Islam, too.

The president sure has. What happened here is possible everywhere. What happened everywhere is possible here. What's the difference when seeing what you want to see is believing?

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About The Author
Diana West is a contributing columnist for Townhall.com and author of the new book, The Death of the Grown-up: How America's Arrested Development Is Bringing Down Western Civilization.
 
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Two paragraphs say it all.
From Diana West's article:

"To President Bush, though, the un-Islamic conditions culminating in an anti-Islamic event -- 60 years of infidel liberty -- constitute a pre-fab democracy franchise that might just as easily have opened up in Riyadh or Baghdad as in Tel Aviv. I think he sees it this way because, emotionally, he wants to see it this way".

"Since the overthrow of Saddam Hussein in 2003, that 'advance of freedom' has mainly empowered Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood -- not my idea of 'secure.' Of course, not my idea of 'freedom,' either. But we're supposed to forget the fact that Western-style freedom is actually antithetical to Islamic law. In fact, we're supposed to forget about Islamic law. Given the administration's new lexicon that quashes most official references to Islam, we're supposed to forget about Islam, too".

I could not have stated it any better.


Bush's optimism is a good thing.
Bush doesn't say anything about expecting democracy to be possible in Islamic countries without those countries accepting Western values of freedom.

I hope, as does president Bush, that these countries accept a more secular government and a more Christian religion. I am not saying I expect that, just that it is possible and that optimism is good.

I agree the Mideast has bigger problems
It seems it has always has been
difficult for the world to call a
spade a spade when it comes to
Islam. Its outward appearances looks
good, with religious-laden talk and gestures everywhere, so maybe outsiders are always asking "What could be wrong with that?"

What is wrong is stratefied societies of first and second class citizens, often with slaves down at the bottom somehwere; polygamy; taking over much of the world by the sword; still having endless conflicts with almost all nonIslamic neighbors; the slow and intentionally imposed degradation and extinction of most non-Islamic peoples over time under their control; slave trade still operating, and is regulated by the Koran; and the whole Islamic world just an array of big ugly slums except where ample oil revenues can sometimes create an appearance of prosperity. That's all.

And 60 years from now it will all be the same unless a couple of things change: Moslems 1) disown a book written for bandits, and 2) start practicing a real religion suitable
for civilzed people.

Boutte Will Soon Be Posting ....
Yet another "I hate the Jews" rant .... Just remember big fella you guys lost in 1945 fair & square.

Reading too much in
Disclaimer: I did not hear or read the Pres's entire speech. I only know what Ms. West has recorded:

One of the keys to understanding what someone has said is to consider the context in which he said it and what he hopes to accomplish by his words. I agree with the above poster's statement that there is no hope of a society like Israel's anywhere else in ME unless the Arab and other Isalmic countries take on some "western" values."

But that is the hope, politically speaking; that a nation of decent people living in prosperity and freedom will serve as an enticement to others to emulate them. If you take faith out of the picture, the Jews were once as ruthless as the Islamics. Of course, believers of both Jewish and Christian faith believe the Jews had a warrant for their brutality against infidels in their land by virtue of God's command. But the Muslims would claim the same thing. Of course, to my knowledge, the Jews never tried to spread their coercive religion outside their country.

But let it be acknowledged, that if ANY society can learn to live free, then any OTHER society can also learn it. But it takes time (generations), and sometimes force. It will likely be 100 years before it will be known if the Bush policy helped or hindered the problems of the ME.


Diana
Would you have liked it better if Bush said something like this: "This sort of prosperity is possible...but not in muslim states." Yes that would have been very diplomatic.

Of course the success of Israel is possible everywhere. And of course, such success depends greatly on the desires of the people in those countries. It is called a message of hope. A REAL message of hope, where you tell other nations that, "Even YOU can reach the same greatness as Israel." Rather than saying, "You muslim countries can never have this...You are too backwards."

West has it about Right.
To be frank, it would have been more relevant to have said this sort of prosperity is not possible in Muslim states unless they first accept a secular government, and separate the Koran from the civil law and economic life of the country. The practical fact is that Islam is the antithesis of Western Democracy. You cannot have Islam, and have a Western Democracy. Not even in Turkey. It works only if you have a secular state - which is not the case in Iraq, for example. This also ignores the fact that no-one in the Middle East has any interest in being like Israel. They stand almost universally opposed to Israel - as does Iraq. Bush should have talked about Israel, and ignored the rest, as it has no relevance. Israel is the enemy, and you don't emulate your enemies - you destroy them.

The President, sorry to say
http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/ramadan/islam.html

Is wrong
Peace to a muslim does not even hold the same definition it holds in Western Civilization.
How can he not know this much?

Peace in islam has one meaning and one only, accepting mohammed as the only prophet from God.

I cannot do that when I know he was a emissary of the devil himself.

The muslims do not even know the Name of the Lord, let alone worship Him.

As individuals, I recognize they have the same rights under the law as all men.
But as to recognizing their god is my God?
Not a chance in he**


Hmmm
I also think she's reading way too much into what Bush said during Israel's celebration.

He's being diplomatic and toasting Israel.

He can't win, he can't lose no matter what he says to most people. Get over it, he'll soon be gone.

Agent Crawish
My Spidey Senses tell me you are correct...

I can feel the Earth tremble...he soon approaches...

Shells
...he will soon be gone!
That's the good news for the world and the USA!

Agent Crawfish, Reply #7
10/10- Game, Set, and Match

Sorry Agent Crawfish,
I ment post #9, not 7. Good one.

TalentScout and the rest of the ignorant
Did you know that Islam teaches that Jesus is the Messiah and will return? Did you know that there are more stories in the Qu'ran of Moses, Abraham, Noah and Jesus than Muhammed?

"Don't know the name of the Lord"?? Gimme a break. The only difference is we Muslims don't consider Jesus to be God incarnate. We believe in worshipping the Creator instead of Creation. Jesus himself never told his follower to worship him. He always spoke of "my father", "your father" and always in the 3rd person when referencing God. If he was to be worshipped instead, why didn't he ever say it? Don't give me that "through me" argument. Even Muslims believe that you come Jesus as well as the rest of the messengers.

Why do you think that you have a monopoly on truth?

wrightsrong52 writes
Subject: Shells
...he will soon be gone!
That's the good news for the world and the USA!
______________

The bad news is If a FAR LEFT SOCIALIST MARXIST LIKE OBOMA(AND HIS WIFE ) get in Office He will be Worst for TERRORISM, Tax Payers , World and the USA ! He is a spoiled 9 th grader wanting to be President since he has the experience of a child in the real world Not the Elite Life he has lived .When Oboma was questioned about Economics he was lost in space .
At least Bush is not a Phony .Oboma is a complete PHONY !



Jesus is the Son of God


Sir:

Whatever your own beliefs, keep them to yourself. Christians have not risen in world history 2,000 years to be lectured by a Muslim; follower of a false prophet.

Jesus being mentioned in your Quran is irrelevant. There is no spiritual significance about that. You are free to espouse it as truth; just as I'm able and eager to call Jesus Christ the only-begotten Son of Almighty God. That being the revealed truth according to God.

The Quran narrative is not the true story of Jesus; and Islam is not privileged in the west to claim power over Christian souls. Even if by God's will we were an oppressed, conquered people of Christ in this world; as once before in the days of the Caesar's; true believers would prefer death rather than deny the divinity and infinite holiness of Jesus Christ.

We do not honor Muhammad; but we choose to respect his followers when they show they're people of good will. We give away NOTHING; we simply treat others justly. Calling us ignorant is a sign that you feel malice, not love. Christians are commanded by God to LOVE one another and forgive our enemy. You are encouraged to hate or scorn whoever you see as "ignorant." That's the sign of the devil. He hates all mankind; most of all your prophet whom he deceived, IMHO. The devil hates us and deceives us; to destroy us. He has led you into a false religion, Sir.

Please don't belittle George W. Bush


Bush may not be brilliant, or correct about what he sincerely believes. But he is a man of good will and a trustworthy one.

R.A.M.
Do you believe you have a monopoly on that truth?

How many here believe in the devil?


We must ask ourselves every day; who is the devil?

Diana West should ask herself: Is there really a devil? My guess is she has no clue. Her insights are all temporal, politically correct, academic and bana.

Bush as simpleton is at least humble and self-effacing. He appears cocky on occasion but actually is a loving man. He never places himself first in any company; he is a hristian soul. There are many Jews who laugh at him merely because they are the Chosen People. And they are.

But he is the President of the greatest nation ever--on earth. Though many have ridiculed him and many more hate him, Bush will always be exactly as he appears; a good man. He's as good a man as any other in America, IMHO.

Dreadnaught
I liked your post that was indirectly to RAM, in fact, 71 out of 72 virgins liked it too.

I also agree with you on Bush as well. What's bothersome and apparent to me, is that 15 years from now, my leftist mother will stub her toe, and find a way to blame Bush for it.


Dear Shells,
You posted a very sweet note; thanks.

I pray for those who can't live without hurting another, especially Americans, who ought to be better than that.

One mother I believe; upon leaving this ungrateful world forever, BARBARA BUSH;

In the instant she meets her Lord & Savior; immediately will offer Him thanks. To have been George W's mother on earth. I know how deeply she must love him.

Hey; if you can go to YouTube search for

"Bush rescues his own Secret Service bodyguard in Chile" a video of that news clip. It makes you want to laugh; then you want to cry. He is such a joy to watch; unflappable.

The koran is an evil book
R.A.M.- 5:04 PM EST
Subject: TalentScout and the rest of the ignorant
Did you know that Islam teaches that Jesus is the Messiah and will return? Did you know that there are more stories in the Qu'ran of Moses, Abraham, Noah and Jesus than Muhammed?
--------
ts:
Did you know the World that then was had already been told Jesus Christ was/is the Messiah long before the false prophet mohammed was ever born?
600 years before the false prophet of islam came along.
Nor does the koran recognize Jesus as Messiah.
The book calls Him a prophet.
Denys He is the Son of God.
The koran is a made up religion by an insane old arab.
mohammed.

When you really want to see an ignorant man, go stand in front of any mirror


I will give what I want to give
R.A.M. writes:

"Don't know the name of the Lord"?? Gimme a break. The only difference is we Muslims don't consider Jesus to be God incarnate. We believe in worshipping the Creator instead of Creation. Jesus himself never told his follower to worship him. He always spoke of "my father", "your father" and always in the 3rd person when referencing God. If he was to be worshipped instead, why didn't he ever say it? Don't give me that "through me" argument. Even Muslims believe that you come Jesus as well as the rest of the messengers.
-----
ts:
His Name is not allah
allah is the name of an ancient false god of the devil worshipping arabs.
-----
R.A.M. writes:
Why do you think that you have a monopoly on truth?
-------
ts:
Knowing Jesus Christ is the Lord, is not close to a monopoly.
Its been known all over the world for 2000 years.

Billions know this truth, hardly a monopoly

.....
----There are many Jews who laugh at him merely because they are the Chosen People. And they are.----

Dreadnaught, I enjoyed your posts. "Jews" are not laughing at Bush, liberal degenerates are, some of whom are Jewish. There are quite a few of us Conservative Jews in America. Most foreign born Jews like myself who immigrated here are overwhelmingly Conservative, it's the American born silver-spoon Jews who are predominantly delusional liberals.

Monopoly? Absolutely Not Pt 1
I am not arrogant enough to believe that I know it all. I seek to learn as much as I can and clearly know that I do not have an exclusive on the truth. Who am I to think that I have it all figured out when Jesus himself asked questions to his Creator at the time of his death.

However it looks like you think you know it all. Got it all figured out don't you? Similiar to many people like yourself, you believe that you've found all of the answers. Nothing else to learn. God only speaks and/or have spoken to you and your people. It also seems that many like you think that you have an exclusive on having a relationship with the One and Only Creator (again, not "creation").

Okay. Let's play the name game. Is the "Creator's" name "God"? Where did you get that from? Jesus surely didn't use the English version of His name. Better yet, Jesus' name wasn't even "Jesus", he didn't even us "Jehovah". Surely he didn't use "God". There are no "J"s in Hebrew/Aramaic, the languages that he spoke. It's more similar to what the Muslims call him, "Iaissa". "God" was probably pronounced "Yahweh" if they spoke the name at all.


Monopoly? Absolutely Not Pt 2
Let's play the "false god" game as well. Surely you sound like a pagan worshipping creation and identifying "other" gods. Jesus himself would say that there is only one God. There are no "false gods" even there to worship.

Believe it or not, you don't have an exclusive on the Truth. God has spoken to His creation since He created them, in their language, through their people to make the message clear.

As far as Jesus as the Messiah there is plenty of mention of his virgin birth (didn't know that either did ya?) and him being he Messiah in the Qu'ran. This is just one verse of many. You can read it if you choose. Don't think you will. You already know it all.
[3.45] When the angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).

I can give you many others.

You and your arrogant counterparts believe that just because you have found some truth, God only gave it to you. Arrogant.

realamericanmuslim.blogspot.com

R.A.M.
The story book tale of the birth of Jesus Christ mentioned in the koran, is a fairy tale.



But you can believe what you wish to, I am going to , and I believe the Holy Bible and its recording of the Birth of Jesus Christ.
Nothing close to how the koran said it happened 600 years after the fact.

The koran denies Jesus is the Son of God.
The Bible says all who deny this truth are anti-Christs and liars.

1Jo 2:22 -
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

mohammed denies Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and his book the koran.
You believe what you wish to believe, I do not need to prove anything to you.

I will not waste any more time arguing with you about this as it is not the subject of this thread.



I guess...
... Dubya didn't fly on to tour Dubai. Too bad.. he would have found it enlightening.

BTW, Shells... don't you find it a bit odd that you and Agent Crawfish pop up immediately on Israel-related threads... to complain about other posters popping up immediately on Israel-related threads?

Western style democracy was also
anathema to Japan in the 1940s. It was an isolated, xenophobic, militarist, theocracy ruled by a divine emporer.
It took ten years to change Japan, but it is now a pacifist, capitalist, democracy, and close ally.
I think there is a little prejudice in allocating subservience and religious totalitarianism to Moslems: THOSE PEOPLE don't deserve democracy because they really are just fractious barbarians.
In *Lawrence of Arabia,* the character Lawrence says something like that to Omar Sharif's Ali, so it has been around a long time.
People of Iraq have written a constitution and ratified it, have voted in elections under threat of violence and voted in greater percentages than we normally turn out to elect a president, and surely deserve a chance at liberation as well as any Western nation.
What they make out of their country eventually will be Iraq's decision. Now, it has really been a near miracle that approx. 150,000 troops freed 24,000,000 Iraqis, have secured almost all provinces and cities--even though our own leaders in the Middle East made many idiot decisions after the invasion was won--and the country has a 6% GNP (ours is 2.2%--the slowdown), oil production is steady, and the central gov't is beginning to function more equitably--I don't think that so bad for a country cobbled together after WW I and forced into a kingship with a Saudi prince, seized in 1980 by the military, and forced into total subjugation by Saddam Hussein and his Sunni Baathists for 30 years.
All the doom and gloom is produced mostly by the liberal MSM just to propagandize for Dems. and liberals who cannot win elections without depression or military losses.

We're all son's/daughters of God......
...according to Jesus who again said "your/our 'father' who art in heaven"

He just never said HE was God. Messiah, yes. God, no.

Agreed. Not the point of the thread. But, you started it. Just throwing BS out there. Had to call you on it.

Israel
It doesn't matter what anyone's opinion is. The bible predicts there would be a Jewish nation again. All things are working to accomplish the will of God.

The church age is ending and the promises of God to Israel will be fulfilled. (They will go through the Tribulation before they recognize their Messiah)

No one is going to be able to wipe them off the map. Read Ez 38/39. Russia leads the attack and it is not nuclear. I expect to see those events. The only ME country that does not take part in the attack is Babylon (Iraq). Will that set the stage for the peace pact the anti-christ makes with Israel?


Jesus proved he was the son of God by having the power to lay down his life and to take it up again of his own will. No one comes to the father except by him. All the others are in the grave. When they can raise themselves from the dead I will listen to them.


In my opinion Bush is insane. How can a "Christian" say we all pray to the same God? How can he call Islam a religion of peace? Worst of all, how can he carry water for the forces of evil who want one world gov. He has been working overtime for the destruction of this country and the creation of North American Union. I guess he never read the part of the bible that tells how one world gov turns out.


Israel becoming a nation was the supersign of the times. I believe when the US goes down we will take the world with us.

We are to recognize the season. We don't have a lot of time left.

We have all eternity to celebrate our victories, but only a few hours before sunset to win them.
Amy Carmichael



He walked through walls
What you do RAM, is argue without knowing the subject, neither the Bible or the koran
You called, I answered, and now its over.
Bye

John 20:
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

John 20:28 -
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God

RAM
He did say he was one with the father. He proved it by getting out of that grave.

All men are not children of God
Joh 8:44 -
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it

anna come to your senses
Please Anna. Cease & desist from acting as an oracle. Christ told us "No one knows the day; not angels nor even the Son." No one can say what form the end comes in.

We are to watch and pray. There is NO END to the "Church age."

Christ told His Church, "I am with you all days, even to the end of the world." He spoke to the Apostles & disciples who started off His kingdom on earth, the Catholic Church.

She is not coming to an end. The Jews are to be converted to Jesus and act as one people again, within the Mystical Body of Christ, His Church.

She is His holy Bride; He is her Bridegroom;
as Yahweh prophesied in the Old Testament. He purifies the impure woman and loves her. He promised to make her holy and then KNOW Her, -- in mystical marriage. WE are His Church; and the children of Abraham in Jesus Christ.

Nobody else except Jesus will save mankind; they who do not believe in Him ONLY, will go to damnation.

God alone knows the end of time;

But YES-- Israel will come to Jesus as one nation; Christ is soon to be known, the Holy One of Israel; Jews everywhere will know God the Son at last. We all realize that for a time, Israel is kept blind by the Father, only until the fulness of the Gentiles should enter. Because God is merciful.

We were not worthy; but salvation comes by the Jews. Jesus is Israel; Son of God. He is the LAMB. Ask the Jew what the Paschal Lamb is. He knows. Christ loves the Jews and will not forget them; not a single one.


dreadnaught
I am not an oracle.

Jesus said we are to recognize the season, like when the leaves change on the tree. Not the exact time, but the SEASON.

"No one can say what form the end comes in."

There is a lot we know about the end. Read Revelation with a good study guide.


Believe what you want. I will be very surprised if the next president does not preside over the end of this country as we know it and the creation of the NAU. Bush has been working over time on this.

Jerome Corsi is a Christian and he has been tracking what is going on and writing on it extensively. You are deluded if you think it is a conspiracy theory. The bible predicts there will be one world gov. It is in the works.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId= 57228 (go to his archives and start reading)

“The ten horns of the beast are ten kings who have not yet risen to power. They will be appointed to their kingdoms for one brief moment to reign with the beast. They will all agree to give him their power and authority. Together they will go to war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will defeat them because he is Lord of all lords and King of all kings. And his called and chosen and faithful ones will be with him.” Rev 17 12-14

(EU, NAU, SAU, etc?)


Whatever it will take to bring us down will be ugly. I do believe when we go down we will take the world with us. One world gov will not be stable. I will be surprised if things do not happen quickly after that.

Have you read EZ 38/39? Read "Epicenter" by Joel Rosenberg.

I was shocked when I found out about the NAU a few years ago. It won't matter who wins. They are all for it.


Christians should not be caught unawares. WE ARE TO RECOGNIZE THE SEASON!



Sicilians and the Ashkenazi...
--
...have gotten along quite well in the New World.

They handle the accounting while we go down to the waterfront from time to time to make sure that the bubbles have stopped coming up.

So on a very businesslike basis, those of us who trace our ancestry to il Mezzogiorno have no trouble whatsoever with the children of Abraham. Heck, we've even been intermarrying over the past couple of generations.

But the anniversary of Israeli independence (like we didn't know that Jews could handle guns?) is a time for Americans to reflect upon the degree to which we *CAN'T* do business with the Islamic world.

President Bush, being a "Good Old Boy" from the Oil Patch, knows the ragheads by way of ARAMCO.

He's got a picture of World Wide Woggery through Saudi sunglasses, which focus only upon the people who control the oil fields.

He doesn't see the fellahin, the down-and-dirty "true beleivers" recruited in Wahhabist madrassas and fired up with selected quotations from the Qur'an before being given their airline tickets.

*HIS* good buddies in the House of Saud wouldn't strap on suicide vests and catch one-way bus rides through downtown Haifa.

And so he's about as mentally prepared to wrap his "Rockefeller Republican" excuse for a mind around jihadi terrorism as he is to perform neurosurgery.

When you see the Mafia cutting deals with the wogs, *THEN* you can figure that they've gotten civilized.

Until then, be prepared to go to the mattresses.

--

Georgie Boy !
After president Bush assured the Israel that he would never sit down with the Terrorists he then left to visit his close friends in Saudi Arabia and we know how anti terrorists they are.

SJ
Have you read "Secrets of the Kingdom"?


Goats were eating the garbage and the mullahs thought refrigerators were evil.


Bush is a moron.

I'm also thinking Olmerts days are numbered.

WHAT 'IF'...
The world stops giving the term PALESTINIAN any coverage whatsoever? Because when one thinks about it, the Pretend Pals are the world's least effected refugee issue - they have more options and facilities than any other refugees. They are not Palestinians, but if they like this name, they can keep it - it smells of 2000 years of Jews. Israel is not *OCCUPYING 12%* of the land allocated to her in the Baflour, yet the Muslime are calling a demand for a few miles of barren land as their catastrophy - because the world has allowed it. This conflict is really a non-entity, and should be flicked off by a camel's tail. Already, muslims mention Jews, Israel and Zionists even more than they do Mohammed and Allah. Who they're kidding! There were far more jewish refugees from Arab lands, and if anything, the Dwarf in Jordan should be sent back to where he came from by the British Judas - all for 30 barrels of oil. Who you kidding!

IamJoseph

SJ
This may interest you. The nutjob has been a busy boy.


"Earlier in the week Chavez announced he had purchased military planes from China, expanding both its arms and its relationship with Beijing. "We continue working on the issue of military equipment, even though they accuse me of launching an arms race," he said. "I'm not launching an arms race. Military expenditures are necessary for the country's defense."

The purchase coincided with a visit to Caracas by the Chinese to discuss the construction of an oil refinery in China to process Venezuelan oil. The meeting was held within days of a cultural confab between Iran and China in Tehran."


"In a budding relationship that has alarmed the Bush Administration, Iran has promised to help finance a new $350 million ocean port and build 10,000 houses for the leftist Nicaraguan govern­ment. Ortega met recently with Iranian Deputy Energy Minister Hamid Chitchian to urge Iran to help build several hydroelectric plants in Nicaragua to help end the power crisis. Iran has committed to just one plant for now. Chitchian pledged to select a site for a $120 million hydroelectric project. Nicara­guans have to cope with blackouts nearly every day. According to some reports, Iran is construct­ing one of its largest embassies in the world in Man­agua--much larger than Nicaragua's size would dictate. Some observers suspect that Iran intends to use its big new embassy as a base for intelligence operations against the United States."


It's a good thing our border is closed.




some more
For those of us who have been tracking the relationship between Iran's Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and various leaders in Latin America for the better part of two years now, it was encouraging to read recent comments by Admiral James Stavridis, head of the U.S. Southern Command. Speaking at a conference on Latin America sponsored by the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) , Adm. Stavridis had this to say:

"I fear greatly that the connectivity between narcoterrorism and Islamic radical terrorism could be disastrous in this region. What I worry about in this region with outside actors coming into it is the potential for those streams to cross, if you will, for the fuel of narcoterrorism to become engaged in Islamic radicalism here in the Americas, here in our home."

As the AFP reported , Stavridis brought photographs of the Iranian leaders and others, including Venezuela's Hugo Chavez, Bolivia's Evo Morales, and Ecuador's Rafael Correa.

"This gentleman is Mahmud Ahmadinejad, president of Iran, a state that sponsors terrorism. He is a very dangerous man and he is in this area of the world," he said, adding that, "President Ahmadinejad says he wants to have an embassy in every country in this region." He already has ten.



History speaks for itself
Listen closely all of you pundits and you as well Diana: SIMPLY REMEMBER THE HISTORY OF ISLAM SINCE DAY ONE...DRIVEN TO CONVERT OR KILL ALL INFIDELS. THERE WILL BE NO CONVERSION OR CHANGE--ONLY DEFENSE IS OFFENSE OR CAPITULATION BY WESTERN SOCIETIES. Need we say more about all this nonsensical discussion?

renny writes
Western style democracy was also
anathema to Japan in the 1940s. It was an isolated, xenophobic, militarist, theocracy ruled by a divine emporer.

You left out after its military was destroyed and two atomic weapons were dropped on its cities. If you really believe Islam is compatable with democracy take a look at Europe. Even when muslims are given freedom they reject it. We are never going to be able to get along with those people so long as they adhere to their backward so called religion. The average Iraqi may have been willing to vote but the radicals who control the mosques preach against it in Iraq, western Europe, and here as well. The only thing these people respond to if force which is why they dont mess with China or Russia any more. The Russians and Chinese just don't tolerate it and answer force with force terror with terror. It's the liberal metrosexual west which is under the illusion it can make nice with these savages. If this country makes the mistake of electing Obama it will only get worse for they will see that as just one more victory. Have a nice weekend and remember the troops on Armed Forces Day May 17. Thanks and God Bless America.

Get a real job Diana
"Since the overthrow of Saddam Hussein in 2003, that 'advance of freedom' has mainly empowered Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood -- not my idea of 'secure.' >>

How? You say it with the certainty of a lunatic and with nothing but an ugly bias to back it up. What is Hamas, Hez, Iran or the brotherhood doing now that they weren't doing before the war in Iraq. Answer: almost nothing. Oh, wait, Hamas is fighting Palestinians, Hez is fighting the Lebanease government. The Iranian government is hated by it's own people. Election are happening in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Kuwait you know, the slow turn toward democracy that all began after the war in Iraq began.


We have a president that is actually fighting our enemies and press that couldn't find it's mind with both hands and a flashlight. All you drones do is pick up the liberal unamerican line and run with it. Shut up!

RW Trying To Nail Me Again
"BTW, Shells... don't you find it a bit odd that you and Agent Crawfish pop up immediately on Israel-related threads... to complain about other posters popping up immediately on Israel-related threads? "

-One thing you're going to learn, is that you can't win an argument with me.

I read articles about Israel and Jews because I am a Jew, and a republican at that. TH provides to me a conservative take on Israel and the Jews, and the posters provide to me feedback on their opinions as well.

I've been a poster here for two years, and I believe I have a better idea of the nonsense we all have endured from trolls more than you.

It has come to all our expectations that for every article written about this type of subject matter, Boutte will arrive and slim us all with his rant and hatred towards Jews and Israel.

And (notice this is the second example so as not to confuse you) when a Jewish columnist writes an article regarding anything other than Israel or Jews, Boutte will personally attack them.

He draws away from the subject matter with his insanity and when we call him out on it before he has a chance to respond--he doesn't respond and move on, like a vampire who senses garlic hanging in the window pane.

Does this answer satiate you?


No Polls For Bush
Why is President Bush's approval rating so low?? A true Politician (like the one who wants to change Washington)polls everthing before doing anything. They can't make a decision with a clear vision of what their decision will result a few years down the road.
I don't agree with Bush on every issue-But I have respect for him in that regards. He is called everthing in the book--Hitler, Lone Cowboy, you name it---Honestly people- do you really want someone answering the Poll Phone who beleives weeds have rights and should never be pulled???

Israel is Not a Freedom Franchise, Mr. P
Whether Mr. Bush planned it or not, I think he set the stage for the standard on how to regard terrorism. Don't negotiate! Stand up to them with unclinching courage!

Mr. Obama'a cowardice and lack of patriotism was insulted. Look at him bleed, along with his far left friends that don't have a clue as to what this nation is about nor what it should stand for. God help us if they take the Whitehouse and gain a majority in Congress that gives them runaway authority.

Thats it just pile on
What a crock. I guess only the "promised people" are capable!

Shells
I guess Boutte didn't get the memo... 51 posts and not a peep.

"One thing you're going to learn, is that you can't win an argument with me"

I've found people who say that aren't really arguing. Btw, I strongly doubt there is a unifed "conservative take on Israel," as the variety of poster views here (yes even the ones you "always win" against) proves.

"Still trying to nail me"

*sigh* ...now when you talk like that, how will I get any work done this afternoon, wondering if you look like Julia Louis Dreyfus?

Rw
"I guess Boutte didn't get the memo... 51 posts and not a peep."

I guess you didn't read my entire memo, here's the important snippet you missed:


"He draws away from the subject matter with his insanity and when we call him out on it before he has a chance to respond--he doesn't respond and move on, like a vampire who senses garlic hanging in the window pane. "

I'll interpret that again in case you miss the meaning: If people write their expectation of Boutte writing his rants before he ever gets a chance to, he will not come. So you're right and wrong...51 posts and we still haven't heard from him.

I never was the type to pat myself on the back in looks, but people tell me I "remind" them of Julia Louis back in the Seinfeld hey days. But I straighten my hair now. I dance worse than she does. Worse.

it's about evolving
The Jewish forefathers had multiple wives, and I believe the old testament favored capital punishment for sinners. My point is, both Judaism and Christianity have biblical textbooks that are considered uncivilized in modern times. The main difference is that Christianity and Judaism have evolved while the Muslim religion in most of the world is still living in the stone age. They just haven't evolved.

renny
renny writes: "It took ten years to change Japan, but it is now a pacifist, capitalist, democracy, and close ally."

Know why?

Because Truman and General MacArthur instituted a policy to abolish Shintoism as the official state religion of Japan. That began the separation of religion and state that is key to Western social progress.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Japan

Now, if the U.S. occupation army in Iraq had instituted a policy in Iraq to abolish Islam as the official state religion, you would have an equivalent situation.

But we couldn't do that, without inviting the entire worldwide Muslim "umma" to come down on us.

In Japan, we got away with it because that's basically the only place that Shintoism and Bushido was practiced.

But to do that sort of thing with Islam and jihad today, we would have to nuke half the world.

Ms. West
This is an exceptionally uncharitable interpretation of some very gracious remarks, made on an important ceremonial occasion, by a man who deeply respects and supports Israel.

The President lost my support some time ago, for a host of reasons, but even so I was left speechless by the gracelessness and bile of your remarks.

I'm not prone to hyperbole, but you really should be ashamed of yourself.

Talent Scout, Dreadnaught, Anna
and others whose posts I may have skipped through.

Get off your pulpit. You are making Hagee look
like a sweetheart, and that is not a compliment.
I had another term "p...cat" but I was told that
I used an objectionable word!!! That is a laugh. Every third post on TH is objectionable. Don't need bad language to be objectionable.


I see a whole lot of glomping everyone into
one pile. You speak as though all "muslims"
are alike - with the same intentions, the same
dreams, the same personalities. That is like
saying that you and I are Americans and
Christians so one description will do for the
both of us. Nothing could be farther from
the truth. I feel almost no sense of identification with you.

I think what best describes you is "narrow-minded" in the extreme.


It is in the hands of God!

16 In that day shall Egypt be like unto women: and it shall be afraid and fear because of the shaking of the hand of the Lord of hosts, which he shaketh over it.
17 And the land of Judah shall be a terror unto Egypt, every one that maketh mention thereof shall be afraid in himself, because of the counsel of the Lord of hosts, which he hath determined against it.
22 And the Lord shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the Lord, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them.
23 ¶ In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
25 Whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance

dear virruhd
I don't speak for Hagee, anna or talent scout; nor for myself.

I tell you what the Catholic Church teaches about Christ; and what Christ means to me.

What if it clashes with your sense of propriety? I don't interfere with your tenets or feelings. Think what you please; I'm merely admonishing somebody (Muslim) who feels entitled to mislead me, mislead other Christians, and absolve himself & Islam of error; which is patently impossible.

His prophet is no prophet. His faith, though a scrupulous one, has brought calamity upon millions. It's been called a major religion; a misnomer at best. We don't see any possibility of dialogue with believers in hatred, injustice and terror. NO DIALOGUE because Islam will never accept us as equals.

I recommend some reading; quite beautiful and instructive, about Islam. Antoine Saint Exupery's book; Sand, Wind and Stars. You'll see everything that's admirable and all that is unholy about Muslim faith. It's a treat to read. Look for yourself.

It is in the hands of God!
Sorry, I cut out part of my message.

This thread has devolved into a religious dialogue; would any one of you provide an interpretation of the followig from Isaiah 19:

16 In that day shall Egypt be like unto women: and it shall be afraid and fear because of the shaking of the hand of the Lord of hosts, which he shaketh over it.
17 And the land of Judah shall be a terror unto Egypt, every one that maketh mention thereof shall be afraid in himself, because of the counsel of the Lord of hosts, which he hath determined against it.
22 And the Lord shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the Lord, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them.
23 ¶ In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
25 Whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.
*****
I'm sure you all know that Assyria is known today as Iraq! Interesting?

Maybe there's more to the Mideast crisis than we mere mortals know.

I welcome any dialogue about this or any other Biblical/Mormon (anti or pro) topics; as long as it is done with respect.

adams_dean@sbcglobal.net

Blind Eye
Presidential optimism: Good.
Presidential realism: Better.
Presidential naivety: Bad. Very bad.

Oh Please
Give me a break!

for viruddh
viruddh writes: "You speak as though all muslims are alike - with the same intentions, the same dreams, the same personalities."

No.
I've seen public opinion polls taken of Muslim attitudes worldwide.

So I have a pretty good idea what they think.

Some 5-10% of them think the 9-11 attack on America was fully justified.

That's a small minority of Muslims.

But when there are 1.3 billion Muslims in the world, that works out to some 80 million people. That's a big pool from which al-Qaeda can draw recruits.

for anna's information:
The present-day situation is certainly alarming. You should try not to dissolve into Cassandra-like stress, wailing here for the whole western world. That's why I suggested you aren't an oracle. Because you keep pasting morbid news as if you can predict the end, and in fact you can't.

In our Church and the scripture only God is aware of what's to come; we are to watch and pray. Everything's normal today, nearing the last days: Wars and rumors of wars.

The words of Christ are clear: "If you would be my disciple, deny yourself; pick up your cross and follow me." Nothing about shades of meaning in the Bible, or prognostications.

In another less morose passage; "To enter the kingdom of heaven, you must become as one of these little ones" -- trusting babes. A child-like trust in God is most appropriate to him who truly cares;

Since this world is passing away. Give up the dire warnings. Bad news is always around. One day Our Lord shall return in glory. That's all we really need to know.

Last words of Scripture: Maranatha; Come, Lord Jesus.

-



Israel's 60th Anniversary at US taxpayer
President Bush was in Israel, with obeisance and homage, for the 60th Anniversary of the Founding of Israel by UN decree. (A decree most of the Marxist and Muslim ambassadors in the UN wish they could rescind). With due deference, I suppose our nation once again pledged to give an astronomical amount of arms, aid and tribute to our ostensible "ally". But I would ask our politicians what symbiotic benefits do we really derive from Israel? Friends and allies offer mutual aid and benefits; a good alliance is synergistic. We give billions of dollars and agree to hazard our armed forces to preserve, protect and defend one nation. Meanwhile, we sit back with ambivalent aplomb at the suffering, bloodshed, persecution and genocide that occurs in other countries beset my Muslim or Marxist warlords. The savage slaughter of Africans or Asians (like those in Dar fur or Tibet) seems to elicit no sympathy from our State Department or Congress. Yet, we are told we must protect a particular nation based upon their purported claim to racial and/or religious superiority to the rest of the world. Isn't this contrary to the democratic principles we espouse in our Bill of Rights and 14th through 16th Amendments?

I would recommend a policy of benign indifference and the same level of involvement we give Africa or Asia, that is involvement only when our national interest are involved. If we have no dog in the fight, if we have nothing to gain, then let let the combatants sort it out without our interference. What makes one race, one religion or one nation so much more valuable than the others that inhabit our planet? What justifies our discrimination? Why billions to one and miserly indifference to others, if "all men are created equal"? And to the obvious critics that may respond to this opinion, I would remind them that not being "pro" is not synonymous with being "anti".

dear conservative cassandra:
Israel is the sole ally America can count on in the Middle East. That's why our help is worthwhile; but we really don't GIVE it away, We invest it.

Bush didn't offer "obeisance" to Israel; that's an insult from you to oour elcted President. If you can't respect the office-holder at least desist from insulting the office.

You have a right under our Constitution to fulminate. But I suggest instead you support our President in his trials. Put yourself in his place, that's what good citizens must do. Have faith in our great country, don't bring it down with these grayuitous slaps. In Bushes place you'd be doing NO better.

OLMERT IS UNDER INVESTIGATION !!
He has already stated that he will step down if he is indicted. I once met Olmert while he was Mayor of Jerusalem and he was very nice and cordial and even invited me to come visit his city sometime. It was an interesting contrast because just months before I met Olmert I met Netanyahu who was surrounded by body guards with uzzis. Interestingly enough,I met them at the same place. There was one person with Olmert but otherwise he was alone. Of course this was before he was tapped to be second in command with Sharon. Netanyahu was cordial too but spent most of his time on his cell phone.

If Netanyahu replaces Olmert I would predict that Israel will strike Iran like they did Syria in about (6) months.

Bush Lauds Israel's 60th Anniversary
To be brief, some people see the glass half full and some see it half empty. President Bush is an optimist who sees opportunity. In turn, you are the fly in the ointment pessimist that inhibits change due to your fear of failing. With friends like you and your gratuitous remarks, one does not need enemies. And you were right, you shouldn't bother.
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