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Tuesday, February 24, 2009
Dennis Prager :: Townhall.com Columnist
From California to the Boy Scouts, It Destroys More Than It Builds
by Dennis Prager
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Virtually throughout its history, and certainly in the 20th century, California has been known as the place to go for dynamism and growth. It did not become the richest, most populous, and most productive state solely because of its weather and natural resources.

So it takes a lot to turn California around from growth to contraction, from people moving into the state to a net exodus from the state, from business moving into California to businesses leaving California.

It takes some doing.

And the left has done it.

California’s Democratic legislature has been more or less able to do whatever it wants with California. The Wall Street Journal has described the result:

“The Golden State -- which a decade ago was the booming technology capital of the world -- has been done in by two decades of chronic overspending, overregulating and a hyperprogressive tax code …”

One might argue that’s this is a politically biased assessment. So here are some facts, not assessments:

-- California’s state expenditures grew from $104 billion in 2003 to $145 billion in 2008.

-- California has the worst credit rating in the nation.

-- California has the fourth highest unemployment rate in the nation, 9.3 percent -- higher even than the car manufacturing state of Michigan.

-- California has the second highest home foreclosure rate.

-- California’s tax-paying middle class is leaving the state. California’s net loss last year in state-to-state migration exceeded every other state's. New York, another left-run state, was second.

-- Since 2000, California’s job growth rate -- which in the late 1970s was many times higher than the national average -- has lagged behind the national average by almost 20 percent.

-- California has lost 25 percent of its industrial work force since 2001.

Joel Kotkin, one of the leading observers of urban America, the presidential fellow in urban futures at Chapman University, recently wrote an essay on California, “Sundown for California.” He begins with these words:

“Twenty-five years ago, along with another young journalist, I co-authored a book called “California, Inc.” about our adopted home state. The book described ‘California’s rise to economic, political, and cultural ascendancy.’ … But today our Golden State appears headed, if not for imminent disaster, then toward an unanticipated, maddening, and largely unnecessary mediocrity.”

That is what left-wing policies have done to California. In Kotkin’s words, “the state legislature decided to spend its money on public employees and impose ever more regulatory burdens on business.”

Last week, Intel, the world’s largest maker of computer chips, announced that it would invest $7 billion to expand its facilities. Where? In Arizona, Oregon, and New Mexico. But not in California, the state in which Intel is headquartered.

The left is bringing the greatest state to its knees.

What generations created, the left destroys. There are few productive and noble institutions in America that the left has not hurt or attempted to hurt. But while the left destroys a great deal, it constructs almost nothing (outside of government agencies, laws, and lawsuits).

Take the Boy Scouts. For generations, the Boy Scouts, founded and preserved by Americans of all political as well as ethnic backgrounds, has helped millions of American boys become good, productive men. The left throughout America -- its politicians, its media, its stars, its academics -- have ganged up to deprive the Boy Scouts of oxygen. Everywhere possible, the Boy Scouts are vilified and deprived of places to meet.

But while the left works to destroy the Boy Scouts -- unless the Boy Scouts adopt the left’s views on openly gay scouts and scout leaders -- the left has created nothing comparable to the Boy Scouts. The left tries to destroy one of the greatest institutions ever made for boys, but it has built nothing for boys. There is no ACLU version of the Boy Scouts; there is only the ACLU versus the Boy Scouts.

The same holds true for the greatest character-building institution in American life: Judeo-Christian religions. Once again, the left knows how to destroy. Everywhere possible the left works to inhibit religious institutions and values -- from substituting “Happy Holidays” for “Merry Christmas” to removing the tiny cross from the Los Angeles County Seal to arguing that religious people must not bring their values into the political arena.

And, then there is education. Until the left took over American public education in the second half of the 20th century, it was generally excellent -- look at the high level of eighth-grade exams from early in the 20th century and you will weep. The more money the left has gotten for education -- America now spends more per student than any country in the world -- the worse the academic results. And the left has removed God and dress codes from schools -- with socially disastrous results.

Of course, it is not entirely accurate to say that the left builds nothing. It has built vast government bureaucracies, MTV, and post-1960s Hollywood, for example. But these are, to say the least, not positive achievements.

In his column this week, Thomas Friedman describes General Motors Corp., as “a giant wealth-destruction machine.” That perfectly describes the left many times over. It is both a wealth-destruction machine and an ennobling-institution destruction machine.

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About The Author
Dennis Prager is a radio show host, contributing columnist for Townhall.com, and author of 4 books including Happiness Is a Serious Problem: A Human Nature Repair Manual.
 
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Everything the Left Did
in California is being done to America.

They are aware of the failure of liberal policies so failure to obtain permanent power is obviously their goal.

Hey Obama

California is proof deficit spending does not bring prosperity.

DUH
Taxpayers have been leaving for years, being
replaced by legions of tax consumers. These
people are the same scum that ruined Detroit
from a great city to worse than third world.

R.I.P.
The late, great state of California has slid into the ocean. We all have been awaiting the predicted "big one" that would shake everything to the left of the San Andreas Fault into the sea. Instead, the death of a thousand taxes has eroded everything good has caused the entire state to slide leftward and become as effete as gay "marriage." Intel is merely another rat leaving the foundering California Pequod. It's a terrible but predictable moment to behold.

Very Sad
It's very sad, but with the Democrats controlling everything we will soon have California coast to coast.

Dennis:
One of the most straight-forward, erudite observations regarding the destruction of all that this nation once was. Amen.

And so what are we all to do? Move?
What has taken over CA seems to be taking over the entire US -- that's how we have Obama, Reid, Pelosi, Clinton, Biden, etc. all from different states. Our elected officials are ruining things everywhere, but we can't seem to vote them out of office.

I Reluctantly Thank God I Moved . . .
from the ONCE beautiful and FREE state that I was born in. If I were a ten year old again . . . in the small mill town in northern California where I was raised between the ocean shore and lots of woods . . . I would probably no longer be allowed BY THE STATE to romp as I wished in the woods next to my family's house. Such freedom would likely now be considered "environmentally destructive" to the squirrels and the snakes.

Conservatives gave up on public ed
Speaking as a Conservative teacher in a California public school system, I place the full responsibility directly on the conservatives

Conservatives gave up on public education over twenty years ago, the ones who could afford it put their kids in private schools, and chased a shiny bauble called voucher systems

Even if conservative WERE successful in making vouchers a reality, the vast majority of lower socioeconomic children would still be in public education, being brainwashed into Democrat voters. That is a STUPID plan, and hands victory to the Left on a silver platter

Public Education must be religion and party neutral, as it was when I attended california schools in the sixties. About that time, left-liberal baby boomers began to enter and dominate public education, and the Republicans stupidly withdrew, leaving the education of the next generations to the left.

What's More,
is that with all they've done with it, Waxman, Pelosi, Boxer, that angry black gal/Congresswomen -- I forget her name, the one Larry Elder dislikes -- all of the rest of 'em, ain't done yet. No, I see they plan much more, much more.

I was in Quito, Ecuador, back in the mid-90s. The banks there, the grocery stores, the department stores, had uniformed guys standing around, each one of them sporting a rapid fire weapon. That, I believe, is California's future.

And the other 49 States pretty much follow California's lead. The "right turn on red," was its last good contribution.

I dont understand
I dont understand why these people want to destroy what has made this country what it is and what gave them their jobs,wealth etc??

Moving away from California
One problem with people moving away from California (and New York for that matter) is they bring with them the same ideas, attitudes amd voting patterns that are destroying California.

They figured out the that there are better opportunities for their families elsewhere but they have not figured out why.

Early 20th century tests
Can poster provide a link to these tests?

Left's Boy Scouts and Religion?
Mr. Prager mentions that the left has created nothing analogous to the Boy Scouts or to Judeo-Christian religion. That would be Obama's civilian corps (a campaign "promise" he'll get around to) and the Obamessiah himself.

Michael (reply #10)
. . . That would be Maxine Waters.

Steven Born CA Feb 24, 2009 - 4:00 AM ES

You can't blame conservatives for California's problems any more than you can blame the multinational businesses for leaving the U.S. and going to the countries that have the least regulations, lowest taxes, lowest cost of labor, and lowest cost of resources.

The blame for California's downfall and for America's downfall is clearly and squarely placed in the hands of the socialists (today's Democrats). It's the loser's religion.

America got where is was in the 20th century by hard work, good clear headed principals and morals, and individual responsibility.

There are no free lunches, and anyone that promises you one is a crook. What you are seeing in California today is Atlas shrugging. That's what happens. Those that can, do. Or they move to places where they have the freedom to get their jobs done.

With your blame game mentality, you're part of the problem. You need to get back in the game of helping your community and your state grow and stop complaining about how the other guy isn't doing what you want him to do.

Doesn't work that way. Darwin was right - the strongest do survive.

The answer to California's problems is in your hands. And your neighbor's hands. Become strong again. Throw the socialists out.

And close the dam borders! The state isn't big enough to support itself and all of Mexico at the same time.

One more thing...

Get government the hell out of the school systems - it's a disaster as it is right now.

Nobody's learning what is needed when the PC government regulations guide what is learned.

You're a teacher, for crying out loud - teach what you know is right! Open your own charter school. Teach English communication skills, American history and government, finances, law, and those other tools our children can use to be successful adults.

Skip the years of teaching about the missions in California - it's a huge distraction and only part of American history. There's a lot more to American history than California history.

But you know all of this already.

Act now - act as though the country's future depended on your own contribution, because it does.

I have many fond memories of my 25 years living in California, and it sickens me to see what is happening there today. A jewel is being destroyed.

Why are they doing it?
louiebasset:
You don't understand.
Simple. One word.
POWER.

Judeo-Christian Character Building?
There's a lot I agree with in this article, but the point about Judeo-Christian religions being a big builder of character isn't one of them. I am a non-believer and I am definitely not a liberal by the standards espoused in this article. Judeo-Christian religions don't make people any more moral than any other faith. Religion is not a cause it's an effect. Good people come from good environments and good nature. They don't have to be religious. They just have to be good.

the plague looking for another host
Unfortunately, as these folks leave their failed states, they come down here and infect us with their leftist attitudes and liberal voting habits. NC is very purple now, and GA is seeing some unhealthy purple in what was once vibrantly healthy red counties.

Republican hypocrisy
First of all, I'd be happy to compare the quality of life in liberal states like Minnesota, Wisconsin, New Hampshire, etc, with the likes of conservative states like Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Alabama, West Virginia, etc.

Did you folks know that conservative states tend to get more federal money then they send to the federal government, while the liberals states send more money to the federal government than they get back?

Liberals states are funding conservative states.

I just saw a poll today that explains a lot. Today, 74% of Republicans are very concerned about the budget deficit. One month ago, when Bush was in charge, only 44% were concerned about it.

Same thing with the Iraq war. No problem spending a trillion dollars blowing up and rebuilding a foreign country, but when it comes to spending money on our own infrastructure you people throw a hissy fit.

You people only look at the labels. If a Republican is in charge, things are going well. If a Democrat is in charge everything sucks.

Phylo out.

Phylo out.

Is there any chance in this lifetime you can think like an American rather than as a partisan?


Ignore Phylo, he's so depressing
Phylo is always looking backwards. Blaming isn't a solution.

The fact is that liberal California loves all kinds of projects and give aways but can't afford them. All of us have wants but we know we have to ignore some of those wants in the name of fiscal responsibility. Why can't a state do the same thing?

you sure covered all the bases there
from california to boy-scouts. never leave a stone unturned, right?
california will rise again. always has and always will.
dude, if you feel so left out in lefty california you can always move to alabama or Mississippi. am sure you will find like minded people over there.

tiresome
It is sad what the religious right has done to the boy scouts. For most of its history it was primarily concerned with building character, and most of the local branches still do. But it is now controlled primarily by the mormons and the Catholic church and so we have the new focus on keeping out the wrong people, which embarasses more tolerant local chapters and violates government non-discrimination policies.

Not surprisingly the girl scouts have managed to fulfill their purpose without discrimination and so without losing access to government services. It is odd to blame this on the liberals though. But then that is what Prager does.

After all, Intel is leaving California for Oregon and Washington because of some flaw in liberalism. After all it isn't like Oregon and Washington are generally more liberal places. OK it is, but they lack the anti-tax measures from the '70s which have hobbled California's budgets. And after all those measures are the fault of liberals. Oh wait, they aren't.

Liberals do have one institution that conservatives have been trying in vain to copy for a while, and that is science. Scientists operating on humanistic principles have revolutionized our worlds. We couldn't even be having this discussion in this format without science. So far global warming denialism, intelligent design theory, and hoping that embryonic stem cells can't save lives has not been so productive.

a

Freedom requires individual choice and individual responsibility. If you like living in a government mandated life style, then you deserve what you get. And you're there now, so stop your complaining.

Some of us remember freedom and remember it fondly. We like choice, including whether we send our children to a religious school or a non-sectarian school. That's the choice I had as a child.

Let's face it, with the exception of declaring war, fighting wars, and declaring peace, government fails at just about every other task it embraces. Education is no exception, because government (aside from the military) just doesn't know how to pursue excellence. It doesn't know how to make people better - it only knows how to breed mediocrity because someone would 'feel' offended if there were better people around them in school. Bull crap!

This is NOT a religious issue - this is a freedom of choice issue.

BTW, you will never be able to fix the problems in the government schools except by closing them down.

IMHO.

Lon,

I have no clear idea of what you are talking about except that 1) you are liberal, 2) don't like the Boy Scouts of America, 3) don't like the Catholic Church or the Mormon Church.

Question for you. How many former Boy Scouts are national leaders? How many former Girl Scouts are national leaders?

If you had been a Boy Scout you would clearly understand what makes the BSA youth training so great. And it doesn't matter who sponsors the BSA troops - churches or schools.

Unlike you, I thank the churches for picking up the honor of supporting scouting. This is a good thing for the churches to do to help the community.

Phylo
Hey, you guys are all for sending money to the feds so why complain about where it's sent? Besides, a lot of that which ends up in conservative states is the democrats buying votes. Left to the conservatives, that money would not be spent at all and so you would not need to send it.

As far as the deficit, sure conservatives are more worried now-- it's about to explode under the dems. It's quite telling that the huge increase doesn't seem to register at all with the dems.

Phyllo, conservatives have no problem spending on defense because that is what the federal govt is supposed to do. We have different priorities on spending from libs, not antipathy to spending per se. No hypocisy there.

Plenty of conservatives griped long and loud about Bush and the GOP congress on spending. The hypocrisy is that the left griped long and loud about spending under Bush, but it's all OK now that it's really about to explode under O.

Scout Law
For those of you who have not been Boy Scouts, this is the Scout Law.

Scout Law

TRUSTWORTHY
A Scout tells the truth. He keeps his promises. Honesty is part of his code of conduct. People can depend on him.

LOYAL
A Scout is true to his family, Scout leaders, friends, school, and nation.

HELPFUL
A Scout is concerned about other people. He does things willingly for others without pay or reward.

FRIENDLY
A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He seeks to understand others. He respects those with ideas and customs other than his own.

COURTEOUS
A Scout is polite to everyone regardless of age or position. He knows good manners make it easier for people to get along together.

KIND
A Scout understands there is strength in being gentle. He treats others as he wants to be treated. He does not hurt or kill harmless things without reason.

OBEDIENT
A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobey them.

CHEERFUL
A Scout looks for the bright side of things. He cheerfully does tasks that come his way. He tries to make others happy.

THRIFTY
A Scout works to pay his way and to help others. He saves for unforeseen needs. He protects and conserves natural resources. He carefully uses time and property.

BRAVE
A Scout can face danger even if he is afraid. He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at or threaten him.

CLEAN
A Scout keeps his body and mind fit and clean. He goes around with those who believe in living by these same ideals. He helps keep his home and community clean.

REVERENT
A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

It would seem to me that our country needs more Boy Scouts to help solve today's problems.

Lon
"Liberals do have one institution that conservatives have been trying in vain to copy for a while, and that is science. Scientists operating on humanistic principles have revolutionized our worlds. "

Sorry, but real science doesn't have anything to do with any particular philosophy, whether it be humanism or liberalism or religion or atheism. It is neither above it or below it. It is nothing but a tool. When it ceases to be a tool to learn, verify, discover, and explore, then it ceases to be science.

Show me those a group of people that try to shut out religion under the guise of science or who claim humanism as science's governing philosophy, and I will show you a propaganda machine manipulated by the few who decide where funding goes.

Science is limited by where we explore. People who extol the virtues of science should be humble enough to know of its limitations.

An 8th grade education...
The U.S. went from nothing in 1776 to a world power in 1913 WITHOUT AN INCOME TAX!

This is the type of 8th grade education you received in this country before the U.S. ever had an income tax:

http://maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom.com/archives/2333-American -Education,-1895.html

This country has a major case of Dumb*ss and I don't know if there's a cure!




Steven Born
As someone who lived in Southern California for 15 years until the dawn of the new millennium, I saw the leftist drift of the public-school system - such as L.A. Unified School District's "Project 10" in 1987.

What you are advocating is that conservative parents, in effect, let their kids become guinea pigs for the liberal educational elite that runs our public schools today. And although I have no children myself, I say to such a notion, "NUTS!"

Liberal-run schools do not EDUCATE anymore, they INDOCTRINATE. And the liberal educational aristocracy does not welcome the input of parents into their activities, and very definitely not that of conservative/religious parents, whom they openly treat as the ENEMY (some of their published literature in the last 20 years makes THAT very clear).

In a column Cal Thomas wrote a week-and-a-half after Bill Clinton's initial election to the presidency in 1992, he urged religious conservative parents to separate their children from our public school system. I felt he was right on the money then, and I've seen nothing since in the public-school arena to tell me that religious parents should re-think such an approach. As Thomas wrote back then, if conservatives educate their children in their own institutions and aim for an intellectually and morally superior school system, public schools will then be forced to change - or close.

Liberal-run schools are programming our children for failure. As I've related on this site before, a former pastor of mine in Southern California watched his daughter, who was in a public school for the first few years of her education, starting to slide down the slippery slope of destructive attitudes - until he pulled her out of the public school system and started home-schooling her, and her destructive attitudes disappeared, and she never went back to public schools.

Reply to Lon
Indeed, "science" has done much. You might thank -- among others Descartes, Pascal, Leibnitz, Copernicus, Newton and Pasteur, believers all.

However, "science" also has much to answer for. It was the high priests of "science" that created Auschwitz, not Christianity.

Of course, give your worship of science -- not to mention your discomfort with Catholics and your comfort with non-consensual human experimentation -- you might have been fine with Auschwitz.

The Left as a whole was, in fact, totally cozy with Nazism from 1939-1941. Then Hitler broke the Nazi-Soviet pact and attacked the true god of the left, and all bets were off, of course.

California Uber Alles... (Incidentally, I'd be interested in how Oregon & Washington became "more liberal" than California.)

Reply to Phylo
I've seen the claim about "blue states funding red states" and I'm curious:

Does this funding include all Federal dollars, including military? There is somewhat of an edge in military installations for the red states.

And does it figure in the percentage of states that the government owns outright?

Actually, Phylo doubtless doesn't know, but anyone who does, I'd like to see the figures...

Reply to "a"
"I can't think of anything that would make us less competative internationally than a generation lost in junk "science" and religious dogma."

Haven't looked at the international test scores for US public high school students compared to the rest of the world lately, have you?

I have great difficulty

believing that Obama is ignorant of what his plans will do to the American economy.

It is more believable that Obama is deliberately trying to reduce American power and prestige by destroying its economy.

Why he would do this is anyone's guess. I can think of at least a couple of reasons for his determination to destroy America's economy. None of them include that he is ignorant of what his plan will do to America.

Some possibilities, 1) he is going to get even with whitey who insulted and demeaned him because of his color as he grew up; 2) he has a mental illness called narcicisstic personality disorder (NPD), causing him to see the world only as it relates to his own self-aggrandizement; 3) he is working for powerful individuals who have their own ideas about how to change the world to their advantage.

The only thing we know for certain is that he is intent on bringing America to its knees.


eddie too

Excellent points.

eddie too

Excellent points.

boy scouts
Boy Scouts is a great program. I should know; I am an eagle scout, and have served as a volunteer. But the world is changing and organizations which cling to old and misbegotten prejudices against gay people are going to suffer because of it. It is not the fault of "leftists". Boy Scouts could adjust without doing harm to its principles. It has the right to choose not to. But if it does, the consequences are its responsibility.

My son won't be a scout. Our family believes in equality and doesn't belong to or support discriminatory organizations.

Half truths and distortions
For those of you not from Ca, we are in a mess. Who is responsible is the question. Gray Davis will be at the top of the list. Some of his actions bordered on insanity.

Believe it or not, part of the problem in CA can be laid at the feet of GWB. Back when Enron was flying high and raping CA, GWB refused to intercede on philosophical grounds. When it turned out Enron had manipulated the market, the damage was done. We have areas of the state that are paying 3+ times what my city owned utility charges. Those areas have had retrograde business growth since Enron.

We are at our current level of insolvency because of a republican minority in the Legislature that has stalled budgetary planning for years based on GWB philosophy.

And of course, the mom and pie institution of the Boy Scouts. They cannot be subsidized with tax payer dollars when they discriminate. Their position is no gays in the boy scouts. Fine. You may have your free association. If you want to use a church fine. Private home?, Fine. School? find someplace else. Any city, county, state facility? Find someplace else.

Allen
So you mean to tell me you dont ever discriminate? You dont ever decide between two sensible options before making a decision? Refusing to let your son be a scout because the scouts disagree with you is discriminatory, isnt it? Is it true or not true that people have a right to associate with whomever they please? The scouts take no money from the federal government so should they not be free to decide whats best for their organization?

Bleeding heart liberal
I stopped reading after, "Believe it or not, part of the problem in CA can be laid at the feet of GWB" You are too funny. let me ask yout his, what is President Bush NOT responsible for?

Bleeding heart liberal
I forced myself to read the rest of your post. It wasnt fair to you for me to not read it all but the rest of it was absurd as teh first line of the second paragraph.

Please explain how the republican MINORITY stalled budgetary planning for years. The republican minority in the house and senate could not stall this "stimulus" plan but somehow in CA minority parties have more power? WOW! We should have debated the issue in CA

And also could you please offer a rational argument for how the government can suspend my civil rights just because they give me money? Now I KNOW that happens what I think is missing is a logicial argument for WHY it happens. How does the government legitimately limit my rights, which they should be defending, because they give me money?

Prejudice & Discrimination

It is my humble opinion that it is exactly our competency at prejudging and discriminating that keeps us alive and helps us prosper.

Those that advocate no prejudice or discrimination are fighting the laws of nature, and will cause individual failure.

We seem to have changed the definitions of some terms to the negative. Bad thing to do.

Think about it.

Come yee conservatives to Town Hall
to get your daily dosage of pathological lies.

This leftist is an Eagle Scout and Scoutmaster. It's hard for me to imagine how anyone could go through the Scouting program and not be liberal. Taking care of the environment? Being thrifty? Those aren't conservative strong points. My Scout Handbook taught me that it was my responsibility as an American citizen to pay my taxes. What in conservatism conforms with that concept?

California has a mostly liberal population stuck with a conservative constitution. California began its nosedive with Prop. 13. That made it far easier to borrow than actually pay for government services. We need a 2/3 vote to pass a budget or approve tax increases. That puts the minority of Republicans largely in control.

Prager shows typical conservative slight of hand by condemning California schools but citing US per pupil spending rates. California ranks near the bottom in per pupil spending. Money doesn't help education? Why does every living soul in this country do everything they can to get into the best funded schools?

Hopefully after this last budget debacle, Californians will get rid of the 2/3 vote nonesense and bring real democracy to the state.

Is Allen lying?
"But the world is changing and organizations which cling to old and misbegotten prejudices against gay people are going to suffer because of it. It is not the fault of "leftists"."

Allen, I think you are fibbing. If you understand the gay priest issue, you should understand the boy scouts. Putting the most sexually destructive, irresponsible in charge of young boys is foolish and dangerous. If it's Big gay Al from South Park, fine, but even playing the percentages, if you'd put your own child at risk to take a moral highground then I suggest putting your kid up for adoption so your son has a real father looking out for his safety and best interests, not feeling better about yourself.

reply to a in FLA
"I can't think of anything that would make us less compet[a]etive internationally than a generation lost in junk "science" and religious dogma."

Wake up, smell the coffee. America is easily competitive vs. the int'l community; countries where we see disasters on every street corner.

With a few small reservations I agree; give us a religious country and wholesome Christian values. The alternative is already here in America to see. I suppose you think:

Drug trafficking and addiction, Girls gone wild, sex shops and porn,

Teachers who lay the student body multiple times in middle schools,

Boys who are scared of enlistment in the Marines because you get yelled at,

Sky-rocketing prices on rentals, groceries,

Homosexual soliciters after dark in public parks and bathrooms; child prostitutes outside every sex shop,

Everybody wants to get "ripped" with a thousand dollar gym machine; nobody wants to raise children,

You think this is a country we'll be proud of in the next twenty years?

MORALS or SELF-DESTRUCTION-- take your pick, a--




THE MOVIES MIRROR OUR TIMES

.....In 2008 Sean Penn wins best actor for portraying a Gay activist in San Francisco ...

.....His character represents the Gay agenda that intends to destroy the Boy Scouts unless they allow Gay Scout Master to take pubescent boys on overnight camping trips ...Penn then makes a speech condemning traditional family advocates as haters and bigots and is applauded ...

.....In 1940 Glark Gable and Spencer Tracey played in a movie called Boom Town ...they played oil wildcatters in California ...those were the days before the Eco-Wackos and Enviro-Terrorists put an end to Oil and Gas development in favor of wind turbines and solar panels ...

.....California's Boom Town days are over ...today the good life means putting a wind turbine in your back yard and solar panels on your roof and tending your organic garden and sharing vegetables with your neighbor and his partner .....COLOSSUS

.....From 1940 to 2008 ...68 years ...is this the kind of change OBAMBI is talking about? .....COLOSSUS

Hollywood
Even Hollywood is starting to pack it up. Our liberal governor Jenny did a conservative thing and gave a tax break to Hollywood studios and now they have decided to build a couple studios here. This is great for Michigan, but what I don't understand is that Jenny cannot realize that if you cut taxes for our current businesses, they will want to grow too. Instead, she drives them off with even higher taxes and then blames our republican governor from 6 years ago. It's just like nationally, when Obama taxes the crap out of our big businesses and they all pack it in, they will still blame Bush.

Alex 1
You are right that there is nothing inherently liberal about science. And there have been conservative scientists. But then there is nothing inherently conservative about religion. And there are as many liberal religious people as conservative scientists. And that did not stop Prager from claiming religion as an anti-liberal phenomenon.

So I was being a bit tongue in cheek there. But it is certainly true that while it is primarily on the left that one finds a rejection of religion (excepting the Objectivists) it is primarily on the right that one finds a rejection of science (excepting some new age medicine issues).

I am not sure why you think the limitations of science are any more necessary for acknowledging than with other institutions. Religion has proven a poor source of science, which does not make it a poor source of religion. And I would not fault Prager for not pointing out that limitation in his article.

eddie too
I vote for a combination of both 2 & 3.

JR- On Allen in MT
Allen neglects to mention that on past threads he claims to be a married homosexual. Stated that he was married in Canada a few years ago.

He takes particular offense to anyone who does not whole heartedly accept, condone, and pomote his life style.

Amen Dennis. Even the LA slimes
seems to be just alittle afraid of what the lefty loons have created in LA county. Their Sunday page 1 had a long article about the fact that 20% of the county is on public assistance.

One in five one the dole!!!! I guess the other 80% are government employees who are in charge of who gets on the welfare rolls! Look out USA this is our future under our new messiah!

listen to cam in CA


A leftist scoutmaster!

"Prop. 13. That made it far easier to borrow than actually pay for government services,"

Yeah! PAY for the Nanny state! Save the spotted hoot-owl; abortion on demand and forced gay swinger indoctrination in grade schools. We MUST have those "government services, so-- abolish all the tax breaks;

While we're at it-- stop drilling for oil and crush California once and for all.

Fallacious statement by Cam in Ca
The best science is that there is no genetic link to homosexuality, period. Not a single case has yet to be found where homosexuality was passed down.

That is a fact that comes from homosexual activists themselves. hHomosexuality may be several things but stating science says it is genetic is the one statement that is false.

Cam CA Feb 24, 2009 - 11:17 AM EST

That's really funny. From your post, it would seem that the whole state of California is a bunch of Boy Scouts.

I don't think so.

Also note that California is a Republic (as I recall) and is not a democracy. Mob rule is very destructive, as I'm sure you are learning.

You might enjoy this video about the beginning of our republic form of government:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyX8pFgH83E

Having said all of this, I disagree with your assessment that the Boy Scouts are of any political orientation. To do good for others is not a political philosophy - it is more often thought of as a religious philosophy, and in our country, this thought has been taught by, and supported by, our Judeo/Christian religions.

It would seem the liberals are the ones who are all about 'me' to the exclusion of others.

Seems to be a common denominator
Several of the leftist brethern here all claim to be affiliated with the boy scouts. Yet some are married homosexuals.

On threads involving science, these leftist types are all scientists and expound in Darwin.

On threads cncerning faith, they refer to Christians as bigoted, bible thumpers, ignorant, etc.

It seems whatever thread they are on, they claim to be the subject of the thread in an anti- conservative fashion.


Highlander Juan
1) I do consider myself a liberal.

2) I like a lot about the boy scouts. I do not like the recent emphasis on excluding children based on beliefs and orientation.

3) I like some things about the Catholic church and Mormon church and dislike others. That they have taken a proud organization like the boy scouts and put an emphasis on the exclusion of people who are different that has not historically been part of the organization clearly is among the things I don't like.

America has a history of fine organizations which do good work except that they excluded people due to race. One can admire the good work they do while objecting to the exclusionary nature. In fact morally one seems obliged to object. Most people no longer think it is ok to exclude minorities from a group on the rationale that the group does good work.

I did not have in mind the sponsoring aspect of the church. The catholic church and mormon church together hold controlling interest in the boyscouts as a national business. That has put a lot of local troops on the spot in which they are forced to at least pay lip service to discriminatory practices against their neighbors that they do not like. That is what Allen is reflecting in his post above. That is a shame.

The boy scout question
The Boy Scouts are an organization that has endured for decades where membership was encouraged by parents, teachers etc.

Why if it is out of touch with Americans, and society has it endured?

Seems to me that boy scouting has been identified as an activity not compatible with the far left ideology so it is mercilessly attacked.

What would boy scouting be replaced with, that is a better option for young boys?

anderson659 AZ Feb 24, 2009 - 11:45 AM E

The whole left wing, socialist movement is very immature, co-dependent, and destructive in every aspect of its thought process.

If you want to build something, you certainly don't invite the socialists onto your team because they have no idea how to build anything. You look for the mature adults in society, which is invariably the conservatives (note I did not say Republicans).

Now, because we have elected our first openly socialist president, Obama, we will see our society and our culture struggle mightily to overcome the damage he is doing.

Somebody fed us stupid at some time in the past, and now we're going to reap the rewards of choosing the wrong path in life.

Go Dennis Go!!!
a thoughtful, well-written piece...you hit the nail on the head from start to finish.

for Lon, on the issue of science...count your blessings that faithful, intelligent and curious christians through the ages have pursued the sciences and have forged great discoveries that you and i benefit from today. we stand on their shoulders, my friend. it is the left that has hijacked the sciences as a religion all its own...you're behind the times, lefties.

I wonder who founded the earliest universities, colleges and schools in this country...could it have been christians? yep...it most certainly was! many "conservatives" are weary of the left destroying the honesty of american history...which proves the left to be uninformed, mendacious and negligent.

...dare i borrow from a bumper sticker: if you can read this...thank the christian-conservative heritage of this land.

Lon PA Feb 24, 2009 - 11:50 AM EST

I think it is your liberal thought process with which I most disagree.

You claim that bias in the Boy Scouts is wrong, and yet you think it is quite alright to impose your philosophy on them or they are not 'right.'

In a free culture, you are free to believe what you want to believe, and I am free to believe what I want to believe.

If you don't like the Boy Scouts, just don't associate with them, or, alternatively, and if you are not too dogmatic in your own beliefs, you associate with them on your own terms.

But the Boy Scouts do have an inalienable right to run their private organization on whatever belief structure they choose as long as they don't mandate your personal involvement in their organization.

Leave them alone. What they do is a whole lot better for our country than the skinheads or the Young Communists.

Lon pls stop embarassing yourself ...
and try to pick up a bit of knowledge about the Nazi Party. Just Google it. Nazi' roots are Socialism and the Neo-Communist in this country were only aginst Nazism when their hero Stalin was attacked by Hitler's forces. The main thing I notice about the Library Socialist Obots that post indiscriminately, is they never seem to actually know anything other than the leftist buzz words about any subject.

Highlander Juan
Then your view is that the boy scouts should do what they want, but gain no funding from the government, because then they would be mandating everyone's personal involvement through taxes? If so we are in agreement.

I thought you were one of the people objecting to the fact that the government was no longer using its properties to give the boy scouts an advantage.

I am not sure in what sense you thing I think it is alright to impose my philosophy on them. Do you really not see a difference between criticizing their biases and imposing my philosophy on them?

In fact, except for the silly idea that I am imposing my beliefs on them, I don't disagree with anything you said in your post, nor does it disagree with anything I said above.

And when my son is old enough for scouting I will see what the local organization is like, and if they do not reflect the biases of the national group I will encourage him to join.

Still not clear where you think the imposing is coming in.

y
christian scientists (as well as the polytheist scientists of ancient greece, and some muslim scientists during the west's dark ages) certainly contributed to our current knowledge.

But the rapid advances we have seen in scientific knowledge in the last few centuries has come about only since the advent of humanism, which was originally a religious worldview, but for various reasons has become more associated with secularism.

I can see the admonistion to hug a christian, but not why you think it should be a conservative christian. The worldview that advanced science is much closer to liberal christianity than conservative christianity. No doubt that is why jewish and atheist scientists have had such success in the endeavour.

Lon PA Feb 24, 2009 - 12:26 PM EST

"Then your view is that the boy scouts should do what they want, but gain no funding from the government, because then they would be mandating everyone's personal involvement through taxes? If so we are in agreement."

We are in agreement in this statement.

"And when my son is old enough for scouting I will see what the local organization is like, and if they do not reflect the biases of the national group I will encourage him to join."

And you will do well to join also. That way you can support your son and also influence what and how he learns. In America, parents have the ultimate responsibility for their children's growth and education.

Joel
"the DMV is religion and party neutral. Do you find it to be efficient?"

I am in my mid-30's and have probably been to the DMV 10-12 times. With the exception of one visit, I have always received efficient, if not always super friendly, service. I don't think I've ever waited more than 10 minutes at the DMV.

The exodus
Our family left California in 1996 for the reasons cited in this article plus one additional reason, the increasing burden on California residents to support illegal aliens. When children are forced into an over-crowded classroom so that the one next door can have half the students in a Spanish-only classroom, it tends to make one jaded. Two years later when the situation had not improved and the opportunity came, we left California and never looked back.

Adding insult to injury ... we watched in disbelief as the Boy Scouts were driven from a patch of public land in Balboa Park that they had maintained for 60 years in exchange for camping rights. The left targeted them, pressed lawsuits, and the long-standing agreement was terminated. That stretch of land is now a haven for junkies, drug-dealers, and crime.

As is said in the article .... the left destroys a lot and builds essentially nothing positive.

Highlander Juan
In what sense do parents join the boy scouts? Do you just mean to be active with the troop? Is there actually a way that adults officially join the boy scouts?

interestingly
Just as a note on the choice that the Boy Scouts of America made to exclude some potential scouts, I noticed that the british equivalent, from which our scouts descend, have chosen to go the otherway adapting their pledge for different children's beliefs.

But then I found out that they have their own problems. There is a story about a catholic boy from scotland who was not allowed in because he refused to pledge allegiance to the queen. (Oddly immigrants appear to be allowed to pledge allegiance to the country, but native catholics need to pledge allegiance to the queen). So apparently everyone has their one political agendas.

Lon-More fallacious statements
The statements you make concerning Hitler chasing all the best minds here in the 30s is laughable to the extreme. American universities had achieved a status long ago as the place to be educated if you wanted an education.

The architect of pearl harbor(and others) studied here. Forget that Lon?

There has never been a political agenda with the Boy Scouts until people like you made one.

Now here you criticize the boy scout belief system as biased. Sorry Lon, omosexual behavior has never been tolerated in the boy scouts and never will.

Either accept that as a fact, live with it and participate or stay away. Quit trying to force your belief system on a private organization.

anderson659
I am not sure if you are making the likely true statement that our universities were better than those of Japan, or the silly statement that they were better than those of Germany.

Just for examples I was looking for how many of the Manhattan Project scientists were educated in the US and I did not get past Oppenheimer before stumbling on the line that "After graduating from Harvard, Oppenheimer was encouraged to go to Europe for future study as a world-class education in modern physics was not then available in the United States."

After Hitler chased out the leftist and jewish and socialist German scientists, it was no longer true that a world-class education in modern physics was not available in the United States.

Turns out you were even more wrong than I thought you were. And I thought you were pretty wrong.

I would hope that the boy scouts would not tolerate any sexual behavior within the scouts. The focus on purging scouts who happened to be gay is a more recent phenomenon, as is the reaction to it. Obviously there have always been gay scouts. The change is how much intolerance they have felt from the organization as such.

with all due respect
Prager's whining about the Boy Scouts was that they could no longer use public facilities because they discriminate. As a private organization, the BSA can do what it wishes. But as a discriminatory organization, it doesn't get to use public facilities.

Most of the bigoted old coots posting in so-called support of the BSA here exhibit behavior so at odds with the Scout code and law that itteh BSA ought to be embarrassed by their support. Baden-Powell certainly would be.

I devoted a substanital portion of my youth and young adulthood to that organization, and I still think it offers great lessons to young men and a way to develop an independent personal integrity that is desperately needed by growing youths. But as long as it discriminates, it will degenerate into a church group and nothing more.

For anderson659
The last time Lon did anything right, he managed to put a circular peg in a circular hole of similar size--so it is a waste of time to respond to him.

Alllen and Lon
Lon...your point is fairly pointless about whose universities were better and when...we are a young nation of immigrants...of course we great influence from German, Jewish, etc...scholarship in our schools. And, to pick physics out of the hat for an example doesn't strengthen the argument either. I was actually glad to see you implied your knowledge of the Judeo-Christian heritage of American colleges and universities (if only briefly). Yes, 106 of the first 108 universities in the US were founded by Judeo/Christian leaders with Judeo/Christian values written into their constitutions. Sadly, most of these have wandered from the faith...I do believe liberals had something to do with this too!

Allen...you argued that the boy scouts cannot use public facilities because they discriminate...would you also cease to allow the liberal groups who discriminate to use public facilities? fair is fair, right? (that might shut down public schools in California altogether so forget I mentioned it). Also, it seems what one person argues to be "values" you redefine as "discrimination." Shouldn't private organizations be able to have private values and also be empowered to uphold those private values?

Lon PA Feb 24, 2009 - 1:16 PM EST

You would join BSA as an adult scout leader or as a committee member (maybe other roles - it's been 30 years since I was involved in scouting). I've done both, and learned a lot in the process. Mostly from the scouts. Lots of good father-son time. If you like camping, this is for you.

svapalla
Roger that on Lon. The man is enamored with himself, and is a legend in his own mind. His intellectual laziness is however compelling in its entirety.

Lon
Your logic is so whacked

Allen MT Feb 24, 2009 - 2:32 PM EST

It looks like you don't practice much of the Scout Law with your comments about 'bigoted old coots.'

Reverence for older folks is clearly not one of your failings.

Lon
my point about our universities is that they have regressed...

take Harvard for instance, since it is the school you keep referring to. It was the first of many here, founded in 1636. According to the new student handbook, new students were required to have a working knowledge of Greek and Latin to begin their studies (quite a high standard don't you think). Of course, this standard was required primarily because students would be studying the biblical texts, but still, a high standard. Today I could get in with a good test score and a few good references.

btw, Rule #1 in the original student handbook read: "Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well the main end of his life and studies is to know God and Jesus Christ which is eternal life, and therefore to lay Jesus Christ as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and learning." Again, quite a bit has changed since then. I wonder if you could locate this anywhere on campus today???

Lon: One comment ...
... and that is it.

The Boy Scouts of America, like the U.S. Military, have a single purpose. The BS purpose is to encourage boys to learn and have fun. The military purpose is to defend our country.

In neither purpose does sex become involved.

Yet the homosexual leaders believe that sex SHOULD be involved. The boys don't care if another boy is gay and probably will never learn it IF the boy doesn't bring sex into what they are supposed to be doing. The military is the same; they don't care if a man (or woman) is homosexual as long as they don't bring sex into the military. But the real problem is that the gays involved want to encourage the boy scouts to become gay and the military gays want to be able to proposition and try to encourage (perhaps I should say "force") all others without being disciplined about it.

Sex has its place - behind closed doors. It should remain there. A male in the military who harrasses a woman is as likely to get kicked out as a gay who does the same thing. As long as some gays insist it shouldn't remain behind closed doors they should be kicked out. I don't like harrassment any better than the next person. Why should I be forced to accept harrassment from a gay because he/she demands the right to do it?

Dear Allen in MT
Why say "With all due respect" to the columnist and immediately accuse him of WHINING?

That's disrespect. This is a free country, but you'd like to censor Mr. Prager for daring to defend the innocence of Boy Scouts, who would be under the authority of practicing homosexuals. A gay scoutmaster might be understanding of their religious convictions. He might remain discreet;

Or, likely by weasel words, subtly indoctrinate at least some of the boys. Of course ! this is unacceptable to anybody who, for religious convictions won't tolerate it. What's the matter with your powers of cognizance, Allen? You don't care about boys, at an impressionable stage in their lives? Let me inform you: Dennis Prager and others here CARE!

dreadnought
I care about all youth, not just boys. I also care about justice and equality.

Fir your information, I care enough about children to devote a substantial amount of my law practice advocating for abused and neglected ones. I have served as President of the Board of Directors for the local Children's Receiving Home, and currently am the volunteer program attorney and a Board Member of CASACAN. I served as a volunteer Big Brother in the big Brothers and Sisters program, and in fact, received an award for outstanding Big Brother. And yes, after I became an EAgle Scout and went to College, I served as an volunteer assistant Scoutmaster for my old troop, as a way to make sure my little brother from big brothers and sisters had the best scouting experience possible.

So save your bigoted and arrogant and totally wrong assumptions about what I do and do not care about. I am sick of people like you who think that I am a sexual pervert or predator when I am not only a man like any other, but a good man who makes many positive contributions to my community. More and more good Americans are joining me in being sick of prejudiced scum like you.

And yeah, I am quite resentful that my kid and I won't be able to share the experience of Scouting that I shared first with my father, and later with my little brother.


Help me understand
I can hear the arguments now. Having gay scout masters doesnt promote a homosexual lifestyle. Isnt that what the pro gay rights agenda folks would say? Ok then IF thats true then its also true that reciting prayer in school does not promote a religion or religious lifestyle. Isnt that correct also?

n
You don't want to understand. But here goes:

A scoutmaster's job is to promote scouting. To run a scout troop.

Does having a black scoutmaster promote a black lifestyle? Does having a fat scoutmaster promote a fat lifestyle? Does having a poor scoutmaster promote a poor lifestyle?

I had several scoutmasters who ran quite a gamut: older, younger fat, thin, white, native american, married, single, some with college degrees, some without, poor, rich, religious and nonreligious, some with kids int he troop, some without. These things, like their sexuality, were irrelevant to how good of a scoutmaster they were. What was relevant was their interest, their dedication, their hard work, and their willingness to try their best to provide the best scouting experience possible for the boys.

You cannot reason with leftists.


Sodomy is always and everywhere evil.

Practicing sodomites

have no business being trying to lead young men and women.

Allen
I commend you for your work with Big Brothers. That is a great program.

I don't completely understand your unwillingness to partner with the Boy Scouts since all they are doing is being true to values which have always been a part of the organization. You imply that is an injustice, and through your argument of the need for "equality" in the Boy Scouts you rule out supporting any of the good they do and offer.

But, it is a free country still (Praise the Lord) and we have the freedom (still) to support the organizations we choose to support. These freedoms are being undermined more and more each year in the name of "equality" or "tolerance."

Everyone is equal. Not everyone is right.

There are some good liberal scout troops out there too you know. The Boy Scouts aren't immune to syncretism either.

Allen
You said,

"Does having a black scoutmaster promote a black lifestyle? Does having a fat scoutmaster promote a fat lifestyle? Does having a poor scoutmaster promote a poor lifestyle?"

No. Unless those scoutmasters have conversations about their lifestyles with the boys (I assume playing the mentor role that sometimes scoutmasters stray off scouting subject matter and genuinely relate to boys by answering their questions and concerns).

If the fat guy says, "hey, being fat is great and there is nothing unhealthy about it," then he's lying to the kids and he is a poor influence. If the poor guys says, "hey, being poor is great and you should work as little as possible and enjoy your free time," then he's a bad influence and shouldn't be allowed to lead. And, if the gay guy says, "there is nothing wrong, unhealthy, or problematic with the gay lifestyle," then, according to the value system of the Boy Scouts, he should be disallowed from leading as well.

This is the heart of the argument Allen. It's not about "equality" or "injustice." It's about a private organizations values and they should not be forced by anyone to change their values. I respect you if you now, in your adulthood, disagree with their values and withdraw your support. However, you shouldn't whine about their values. Start your own scouting troup with your own set of values. You have great experience and credentials...I'm sure you could get a group together for your son and his friends in the area. Design a logo, come up with a catchy name, plan some trips, and off you go.

Highlander Juan
Thank you for your nice comments. I am a few years away from when scouting will be relevant, but I will certainly be interested in what involvement is available.

Maybe the shoe fits Allen?


Allen is furious because
1.) I stand up for Prager's rights.

2.) I think boys should be protected from sleaze and decadence.

3.) I truly believe Boy Scouts stands for wholesome and dignified conduct in American youth; as it always did.

4.) I find Allen to be an ENABLER, not a good influence. He proves it by the vehemence of his attack on Judeo-Christian teaching concerns. And open disdain for responsibility of adults in the lives of children.

Enabling an attack on values right here; in accusing others of bigotry because they want boys shielded, not pent up in a tent; with a vaginaphobe Scoutmaster.

That's rough, Allen. --But you made me aware, Sir; that you're pushing the gay agenda. That means I'll speak out against you.

I congratulate you for what contributions you make; or your devotion to pet causes. Yes; but you're still in the same class as Sean Penn, who hates everybody on the right.

WHY? His lax view of homosexuality is just as tainted with liberalism. (Which is why he won an Oscar!) He didn't like for California voters to defend our institution of TRUE marriage between man and woman. So, what about it? WE care about true marriage.

We care about clean and decent adolescent boys who won't have to HIDE when they grow up to fall in love someday. Boys who will MARRY women! So you can eat your heart out, Sir!

Boy scouts
I'm surprised we got this far w/o hearing that most child molesters are straight. Of course a man that has sex with a boy would be... straight?

i give gays a lot of credit for pedaling that line of b.s

are all gays child molesters? No
but a certain % are, just like a % of straights. But if a straight man was known to like little girls I wouldnt put him in charge of a troop of girl scouts.

PR
Yes to a point the fact that our Universities became world leaders primarily because of immigrants chased out of Eurpoe by the Nazis is not a deeply important issue. But it comes up to counteract the also unimportant if true, but not true, idea that it was the religious element of their founding that made them religious.

In the early days of Western Universities, the church was largely the only group with the money and time to subsidize universities. And scholars had to become priests to become educated, not because they had a calling or because Christianity had some advantage for the church, but because those were the rules. John Locke became a doctor because by his day it was the only way to become a scholar without becoming a priest, and he didn't want to.

Through much of its history, the primary requirement for getting into Harvard was being rich. Harvard only began to turn around that reputation early last century, and it was probably with that influx of foreign scholarships that education, rather than wealth, was the hallmark of the university.

Speaking multiple languages can be impressive, although it is certainly not the greatest determinant of intelligence. Every generation thinks the next has fallen from the last. But there is no actual evidence this is true.

And it is worthwhile being aware that something special happened in our universities in the middle of the 20th century. The image of a great system in steady decline is a false one. And a bad sense of history is never a good thing.

45caliber
If what you said was true, then there wouldn't be much of a debate on homosexuals in the boy scouts since noone would care. The problem is that the boy scouts, at least when they either agree with or feel prodded by the national organization does care.

One of the cases that got these issues going was an eagle scout from New Jersey who had his picture taken with his boyfriend in a non-scouting situation. He did not try to mix boy scouts and sexuality. He lived his life. The boy scouts desided that despite being an otherwise exemplary scout that he could not stay because of non-scout related behavior.

The idea that it is not scouting that is introducing the sexuality aspect is false.

Golden Has Lost It's Glitter...
I was born in the Golden State 60 years ago in San Diego. Wonderful place to be from and still to visit! However, all my years in the LA area witnessed a slow erosion from anything virtuous to anything goes. As the Mr Natural cartoon used to say: " If it feels good, do it".

Too many people began to subscribe to that mantra to the point where schools began teaching young girls to gratify themselves or with other girls since boys can impregnate.
Another by-product was the disrespect of teachers, parents, or anyone in authority.

Beyond this 'progressive' approach is the curse of absentee fathers which has spread it's tentacles nationwide and beyond. Illegals defiantly fly the Mexican flag on Independence Day. Homosexuals proclaim they're against hate, and yet attack churches when they don't get their way.

As much as I often miss the scent of Jasmine and Citrus blossoms, or the beauty of Bouganvilla and Oleander, I would never want to return to my native state. 30 years ago I helped a friend move to Portland. Once across the border there were bumper stickers saying "Do Not Californicate Oregon". I'm afraid it's too late for that now.

Lon
Generally, I don't disagree with your argument here. Also, I don't believe that every generation is worse than the one before it. On the contrary, when I study history I see its cyclical nature. Thus, from a Christian's perspective, some generations are better than others not because of their intelligence scores but because of their faithfulness to God.

There is a part of me that is saddened at the demise of Christianity's influence on university campuses...but again, this is a cyclical phenomena present throughout history. Christianity is thriving in the world, but Christendom in America is nearly dead. When I say Christendom I speak of a time when the Church and the State were supportive of one another. For example, John Quincy Adam's, our 6th President (btw...president of the U.S. and the American Bible Society at the same time) said of the American Revolution: "The highest good of the American Revolution was it connected in one dissoluble bond the principles of civil government and the principles of Christianity." Christendom is dying in America because Christian Principles no longer serve as the Chaplain to the American Value System. They once did. I wish that Adam's prophecy were not failing.

So, I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiments; however, as you can see from my perspective, there is a noticeable decline in the 20th century that relates to the subject of our dialogue. "Bad sense of history," NO. Different sense of history...maybe.

Scouting
Scouting is great stuff for the young ones growing up! The grownups controlling the important institutions of our country would do well to remember values transmitted in Scouting like integrity, honesty, truth, and loyalty. The ACLU is a major cancer destroying the moral fiber of society. Eradicate the ACLU and terminate, forever, the employment of every single low-life lawyer working there!!! The "gay", homosexiual perverts, types better stay away from one of the few sane organizations around for our boys!!!

PR
I appreciate the reasonable and polite replies. It'll be a few years before my little guy is old enough to join. If national policy changes, I'll reconsider in a heartbeat, or if there is a local troop which doesn't feel bound by national policy on this, which wouldn't surprise me.

After all, in spite of the national Republican platform on gay issues, the local Republican party has encouraged me to run for office. They know me, like me, and think I would represent Republican conservative political values well. Why? Because they know that I share the same philosophy of governance that they do.

I lived at the beach until
our first son turned 2 years old in 1987. At that point my husband and I had taken a good look around us and decided we didn't think it would be good to raise our children in So. Cal. Leaving was the smartest thing we ever did. Oh, we had our fun before kids, had great jobs, and all the "perks" of living at the beach. Heck, we used to sing along with "I Love L.A."! But we saw it starting to crumble and knew the party wasn't going to last (no pun intended). I did not return to visit until the mid to late 90's and I was appalled at what I saw. The roads were in horrid condition, the roadsides nothing but trash heaps and graffiti jungles, the air so bad it burned your sinuses, ganstas roaming the highways and neighborhoods, one fast food joint after the next, clogged freeways, razorwire installed on freeway signs to keep the rifraff off of them, some of the best businesses shuttered, entire neighborhoods in shambles, and on and on it goes. At least when I lived there I saw my tax dollars at work even if I still thought them to be too high. That this once vibrant and beautiful state deteriorated to such a degree is nothing short of a sin. A sin of the resident's ignorance and those they elected. It will never be a great state when the only business is one group of people serve burgers to those who serve hot dogs. RIP California.

Collie-fawnia
California is a micro-cosm of the United States. What happened to it is happening to the rest of the country.

How did it happen? It was the dream of the left. They were patient. It took a lot longer than they expected ,but by George,I think they've done it!

Republicans didn't do much to slow it. In fact some in the party probably welcome the change.It is sad but true.




Allen
I wish you luck. There is room in the Republican party for differences of opinion...even on values issues. It would certainly make it harder to run in southern states, but still there is room.

We need leaders who speak from their hearts and not from the party lines on the teleprompters. Even if I disagreed with a leader on a couple values issues...if they speak from their heart and have a record of honesty, good-principles, and quality service, then I would be honored to lend my support. I might draw the line with the abortion issue, but there is a lot of room for new leadership within the party.

Nice chatting with you today!

and on the East Coast...
Your article is sad to read as it is so true. I've lived in New England for a half-century now. There was a time when there WAS a New England self-reliance, thriftiness and other hardy types of virtues. (Before my time)

Now, the last great hope - NH - is being poisoned by the exodus of MA folks who, having destroyed one state, choose to escape to the north bringing the taint of mediocrity north.

My husband and I had hoped to escape MA one day for the north. Now, I'm thinking Alaska.

Sad.

Lon PA Feb 24, 2009 - 4:24 PM EST

You're welcome.

Nancy MA Feb 24, 2009 - 5:32 PM EST

How odd. This is my same tale, only I left for California and Europe, and came back after 25 years to find the People's Republic of New England. What happened to the seat of the American revolution? What happened to the patriots? They're all socialists now.

On an aside, I asked my CPA, and his dad told him he thinks the change started with the introduction of the income tax in Maine and the subsequent intrusion of government into private lives.

The income tax isn't New Hampshire's problem, but it is clearly why many folks from Massachusetts move to NH. And you're right, they take their culture with them. Too bad. I liked the 'Live Free or Die' state when I lived there.

Hey, My birthday is Patriot's Day. Anybody know when that is?

Are there any patriots left?

exlpulsion
How do we begin the process for expelling this state from the union?

Lenard MD Feb 24, 2009 - 6:11 PM EST

There is a pretty strong effort in about 20 states right now to re-assert state's rights over federal control. Look up 'state sovereignty' or 'Tenth Amendment' on Google. Look at http://www.resistnet.com/ and some of the sub-chapters.

Watch Glenn Beck on Fox News.

There's a lot going on, and it seems to be about escaping the onerous power of the federal government.

It's going to be a hot summer.


Lenard
California is an example of what can happen to the rest of the country.

Is it part of a bigger plan?
Could it be a larger plot of ridding the country of capitalism? The left being so obsessed with equality perhaps the bigger plan is to grow government and dependance on such. Liberalism is the feel good political philosophy that isn't concerned with outcome or results, except the equal dispersement of misery, the demise of our military and the removal of Christianity from public. Poor economic results are a reason to increase government. Profit another reason to tax. Inequality being the reason to regulate.

Ca.'s No. 1 Crop
Tom Ammiano, D-Calif., is thinking about introducing legislation to make marijuana legal in California as it is the largest crop grown there. He says the taxes would help California in its economic short-fall.

California will not drill off-shore. After all, it would take a year or two to have producing wells and we will have no need for Saudi, Russian or Venezuelan oil by then. Smart people out there in California.

How About a Third Party?
Here is the way it would work:

Republican Party.
Democrat Party.
Incumbant Party.

There would be a preliminary election. The winner of the Prelim would go on the ballot of the general election against the incumbant.

The incumbant could not campaign. He would have to rely solely on his record.

Maybe then we could get a reasonable budget. Maybe we could get a budget on time. And maybe, just maybe, when our representatives foul up we could boot them out of office.

Fed up in California.

Re: Reply 26
“… Once seperated from the state, those wholesome Christian values can be permitted in school. Along with creationism.

I can't think of anything that would make us less competative internationally than a generation lost in junk "science" and religious dogma. "

It is a myth that public schools are neutral in educating students on morality and ethics. The teaching and atmosphere are dominated by values of the Left -
e.g.
Equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity or liberty;

Moral relativism rather than basic ‘rights and wrongs’;

Being activists instead of developing character;

America as a fog of white racism with a rotten past consisting of an amorphous land filled with separate cultures rather than an ideal of individuals born with rights establishing government to protect and not violate them.


Allen
I could not agree more sooooooooooo you should then have no problem with prayer in school since that should not promote a religious lifestyle. If it cant promote a religious lifestyle then by definition it can NOT be government establishment of religion.

Prager
you are a liar.

BSA is alive and well all over CA. In LA County alone, hundreds of kids are scouts. Maybe if you stayed married long enough to provide a stable home for your kids, you'd be involved with the scouts, eh? Check out http://www.boyscoutsla.org/

Why don't you just move, Prager? Whine, whine, whine. You drive a big car, live large, your temple in the Valley is huge and rich, you are a complete liar. And you make people think that CA is a problem when it is not.

chloe
I've missed you chloe.. the insane voice of illogic. You make me laugh

Chloe
I have missed you....the insane voice of illogic. You make me laugh

Leaving the U.S.
Now that all of America has taken a drastic turn to the left, where can good, honest and decent Americans go to escape the loonie Dems?

It boggles the mind that this recession was caused by Democrats, via the Community re-investment act, and now they have succeeded in taking both houses and the presidency the DEMOs are attempting to solve the problem by the very methods (more socialism) which caused this problem in the first place?

Unless Americans get their nerve up and throw the left out of office, I'm afraid that the world is headed for some dark times.

FDR turned a recession into a major depression which lasted 10 years and Obama is well on the way to doing the same.

With terrorist states close to getting nuclear weapons, why did the Americans have to elect a do nothing whack job to the office of president????

great article Dennis
This thread was pretty civil considering the topics involved. Lon, I know you are a liberal, but you debated without attacking to much. Thank you. I wish that would happen more, even if we do not agree with politics or the belief of a certain religion. Allen, you debated nicely and I'd recommend you going to scouts with your son. A father son bond is a great thing, especially on fun outings such as camping trips.

California is a great tourist destination, and the redwoods are simply breathtaking! I'll be visiting San Diego on my honeymoon at the end of July, before departing on a cruise, but I'd like to know of any places from the Airport to the harbor that we could visit for a couple hours. And I also would like to know where the zoo is located. Any replies would be welcome. Thanks.

Where can you avoid USA liberals?
My brother is seriously considering moving to a Central American Country.
Over the past several years he's been traveling there and scoping out the possibilities.

Typical Prager Nonsense
Blame the Left for everything.

To talk about California's problems and ignore Prop 13 shows a complete lack of judgment.


Hong Kong a great example
The reason Hong Kong became the economic powerhouse of the far East is that beaurocracy steps out of the way free enterprise.
It used to be that with a one page application and a small processing fee, one could start a business in Hong Kong.
Under the Chinese things may have changed for the worse.

California
Great article Dennis. Living in California, just in the past 10 years, has changed dramatically. There are so many rules. There is no freedom. Everything is difficult - nothing is simple or easy anymore. The left has destroyed California. I would like to secede from northern california - minus L.A. I don't know if that would help. Because I think there are too many Richards and Chloes in California now - afraid of freedom and needing so many rules. They feel the need to impose all of this on us, because they want to control others or they need to feel controlled.

Richard, it is the lefts fault. It is people like you and Chloe that have destroyed California. Nice work. Why don't you two move to Russia, Sweden or England. Stop trying to change our country to meet your pathological needs.

We can NEVER again win...
Conservatives, at bottom, offer responsibilty.
Liberals offer rights. We can't compete, no one will vote for a offer of the former over the latter, and liberals have it made.
Good-bye country.

Robert
I think it's interesting that you think that liberals offer rights. To whom? They usually take away the rights of the majority to serve a smaller minority. They want a larger government which takes away everyone's freedom and rights.

Libs OFFER not DELIVER "rights"
Wagner, don't you hear the never-ending pleas for the "right" to free sex, free abortion, gay marriage, medical care, bus fare, mortgage bailouts, etc., etc.?
Well, which party panders to those demanding "rights"? Liberals!
Not that liberals ultimately DELIVER the "rights" (if they are even rights at all), but liberals do OFFER them, just as all the tin-horn dictators promise "land reform," etc. to the uninformed, credulous masses.
Of course, rights - real rights - are more and more limited over time with liberal policies.
My point was that the OFFER of rights today is more appealing than the OFFER of responsibilty, work, etc. with delayed gratification.
Which offer is more appealing to the majority of people? Does that explain why liberals have it easier in elections? Just promise goodies!

Prager looniness
More wingnut bluster. Gee, look at what a great job conservatives and their “Christian” allies have done in such lovely destinations as Alabama and Mississippi LOL. People voted with their feet and moved to California. The vast majority won’t leave, and give up the nice weather, progressive attitudes (can you imagine a Californian moving to South Carolina??) and job opportunities.

Forty-eight states are in budget crisis right now…replace “California” in this article with the name of any other state and the article, silly as it is, wouldn’t have to change much.

And maybe if Christians would open up their hearts and wallets in Alabama, it wouldn’t be consistently at the bottom in terms of health metrics, education, etc.

From Harper’s Magazine, 2005:

“Had the new law [sponsored by Republican Governor Bob Riley] raising taxes in Alabama passed, the owner of a $250,000 home in Montgomery would have paid $1,432 in property taxes—we're not talking Sweden here. But it didn't pass. It was crushed by a factor of two to one. Sixty-eight percent of the state voted against it—meaning, of course, something like 68 percent of the Christians who voted. The opposition was led, in fact, not just by the state's wealthiest interests but also by the Christian Coalition of Alabama. “You'll find most Alabamians have got a charitable heart,” said John Giles, the group's president. “They just don't want it coming out of their pockets.” On its website, the group argued that taxing the rich at a higher rate than the poor “results in punishing success” and that “when an individual works for their income, that money belongs to the individual.” You might as well just cite chapter and verse from Poor Richard's Almanack. And whatever the ideology, the results are clear. “I'm tired of Alabama being first in things that are bad,” said Governor Riley, “and last in things that are good.”

Go Christians! 90% of Alabamans consider themselves Christians. Very sad.

Brilliant Assessment of the Left
Dennis' comments are succintly germaine to the socio-economic problems we're facing. I'm glad he's syndicated hoping a few on the left will have an epiphany during this Lenten season.


Escape from NY
As soon as my youngest graduates from High School I'm out of here. At least California is warm. The Democratic controlled state government is turning upstate NY into a ghost town.

As Davy Crocket once said, "You can all go to He--, I'm going to Texas".

Who likes rules? I just like the truth.
Dennis is a liar. I've lived in this state since 1975. It is better in some ways, worse in others, the same in many ways. No freedom? What kind of nutter are you? What exactly has the 'left done'? You're the one who should leave...I've been here most of my life, and I adore it.

nutters.

opps, correction
I've lived in CA since 1972, LA since 1975. Husband and kids born in CA. Greatest place on earth. People who criticize it and leave are generally those who cannot make it here. Cut and run, quitters.

Blame the illegals. Blame the libs. But the decline in jobs is from companies who choose to make bigger profits elsewhere. It costs more to live here, meaning people need higher salaries. Corporations prefer to keep the extra money for themselves and run out of the state and out of the country. Funniest thing is in the central and imperial valleys, GOP type growers loves them some illegal workers!

And it costs more to live here because we actually care about our environment and don't run our beach towns into crap like they do on the east coast.

RE: Repl;y 124
Prager writes an article blaming the Left for all of California's problems. I think that Prop 13 is a major source of our problems. The famous Left Wing Radical Warren Buffet agrees with me.

Prager's column has no insight or evaluative content. Just his preaching to the choir.

California has problems that do not stem from the Left. Prop. 13 is one example. The 2/3rds vote requirement for a budget is another.

I am not trying to change the world. Just trying to make it more rational.


Stop giving them money to continue
Move out of the state. The taxes you pay enable them to continue to do what they do.
Vote with your feet.. MOVE

Chloe
Wow... Dennis Prager is anything but a liar. Pull your head out.

Anyone that votes for the Left...
should leave this country. Dennis is right - CA is a liberal mess. They don't know the value of a dollar, cannot balance a budget, have never met a tax they didn't like, and they hate anyone who is self-supporting, self-sustaining, self-sufficient, and wouldn't take a dime from the government if their children were starving.

That was me a few decades ago. Instead of going on welfare, I got a second job. And so did millions of other people who understand that accepting government money when you are able-bodied and not lazy is pure evil.

The Left...spirit-killers, every stupid program they fund with my money.

The difference between the Right and the Left is this:

The Right thinks the Left and Islamic terrorists are the US's greatest threats.

The Left believes the Right is the greatest threat to the United States. They like terrorists. You can tell by the $900 MILLION Hillary just gave Hamas.


Dennis has solved it!
I agree with Dennis Prager and if anyone has listened to his radio show good for you and those who haven't you should start. Even if you dont agree with everything he says he is very articulate and factual.

With respect to the burdensome tax code on businesses I have experienced it first hand. My family has an electronic connector company that produces military spec connectors for planes, trains, and tanks etc. They used to be in a small warehouse in a not so nice part of Inglewood in California. Do to such high taxes in the early 2000s they decided to relocate to Las Vegas which had tax benefits to both the employees and the company itself. Since there move business has expanded and now employees twice as many people than it did in California.

Second, the attack of the left on religion has been disgraceful. I am a cradle Catholic and have recently started attending church services after a long absence from the church. I am amazed at all of the false information that the lefts public announcement agency (Mainstream Media) has spewed across America. My girlfriend of five years now fiance is now taking classes through the church to become Catholic. We recently went up to San Fransisco to see our old friends, when they found out of my fiances decision they were seriously shocked. They thought we were strange for doing this and made a joke out of the situation. When we told them we wanted to get married in the church one of our friends expressed hesitation about having to enter the church for the wedding. Everyone we have told since have responded with, WHAT, WHY or SORRY. Might I add that all of these people are, yes, liberals.

excellent post, christian
It's refresing to see; the faith is never going to die. Not even in this state; where no truth is tolerated.

The Catholic marriage you're about to celebrate will make the rest of your lives spiritually rewarding. Your love will be holy in the sight of God and His people.

Never worry when the world can't understand you. I congratulate both of you!
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