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Tuesday, February 17, 2009
Dennis Prager :: Townhall.com Columnist
The Madoff Bill
by Dennis Prager
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I write this column without any illusion that it will reverse America’s current movement toward socialism. Rather I am writing it primarily so that future generations will not be able to say that the radical and destructive nature of the Obama/Democratic Party’s so-called stimulus plan was unknown at the time. I am writing this so that my children will know that their father vigorously opposed it and why.

How radical -- in fact, revolutionary -- is the $789 billion stimulus plan? It is, in the words of House Appropriations Committee Chairman David Obey, D-Wis., “the largest change in domestic policy since the 1930s.”

It is, as Robert Rector, identified by the Times of London as “one of the architects of Clinton's 1996 reform bill,” “a welfare spendathon that would amount to the largest one-year increase in government handouts in American history.”

It is the reason the Obama-supporting Newsweek headlined on its cover page, “We are all socialists now.”

It is why, in the words of The Times of London, “Republicans are not alone in fearing that Obama’s hastily concocted package is the first step towards the creation of a quasi-socialist welfare state.”

President Obama and the Democrats have put America into nearly $1 trillion dollars more debt by using the cover of America’s current economic crisis to spend hundreds of billions of dollars on welfare programs, green projects, and on schools.

In a nutshell, the stimulus plan is not a stimulus plan. It is the largest spending program in U.S. history. In the words of the Austin (Texas) American-Statesman editorial that supports the bill, “The essence of the bill is to spend money …”

Almost everything about it is dishonest.

Its name is dishonest. It is a spending bill, not a stimulus bill.

Its announced aim is dishonest. It purports to stimulate the economy. But its real aim is to push America toward becoming a Western European socialist welfare state.

The way it was enacted -- the speed, the lack of transparency -- was dishonest. As the Wall Street Journal wrote, “Democrats rushed the bill to the floor before Members could even read it, much less have time to broadcast the details so the public could offer its verdict.”

Even the spending is dishonest. The bulk of the spending will take place over years, not now, which is the whole point of a stimulus.

For these reasons, the bill could be renamed the Madoff Bill. Not because there are any parallels between characters of its authors and the character of Bernard Madoff. There aren’t. But there are parallels between the methods. Madoff took people’s money, promised to give them benefits, while in fact squandering their money -- to the tune of tens of billions of dollars. So, too, the president and the Democrats are taking Americans’ money, squandering most of it -- to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars, while promising to give them a benefit, a stimulus, when in fact they are spending the money. As Harvard economist Robert Barro told the Atlantic, “It's wasting a tremendous amount of money … I don't think it will expand the economy. … I think it's garbage.”

Even its defenders, now that the bill is passed, do not defend it as a stimulus bill. Typical was New York Times columnist Frank Rich, who devoted his essay to the stimulus plan but only attacked Republicans. He did not devote one of his 1,500 words to defending the bill as a stimulus package.

Even Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., described the bill with words having nothing to do with stimulus: “By investing in new jobs, in science and innovation, in energy, in education ... we are investing in the American people, which is the best guarantee of the success of our nation.”

No one should be surprised. Americans voted for a man who said time and time again that he wanted to “transform” America. He and his party are trying to do precisely that.

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About The Author
Dennis Prager is a radio show host, contributing columnist for Townhall.com, and author of 4 books including Happiness Is a Serious Problem: A Human Nature Repair Manual.
 
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Trickle Down Economics
Everywhere you look people are being layed off. This will continue as companies are now facing real prospects of not being able to grow and expand.

So for those of you that still don't believe in 'trickle down economics' just sit back and watch as unemployment skyrockets due to the tanking economy. Companies as well as government (State of California) do not have the revenue streams they once had and they are now reaching the breaking point.

Companies are in survivor mode and are hunkering down until the dust settles. Government doesn't know what to do because they just don't have money coming in like they used to. So now the very people that have been demonizing big corporations, wall street, pharmaceuticals, etc. are now going to see what life is like without them.

This is really going to get ugly.

Nothing New
Congress has always been the culprit in running up our debt and wasting money. People have blamed presidents and the 2 major parties, but the power of spending has always lied with Congress. And they have constantly overspent every year and now the national debt will be 12 trillion. This year the President was the catalyst, but Congress went right along with the spending after a few ceremonial cuts to make it look good. Prager is right, this is just another massive spending bill.
Congres is the most fiscally irresponsible entity in the land. This massive debt will have to be paid by some future generation, probably one of the next two. I pity them.

As to Will
There was a quote on another thread that sums your post up quite nicely.

"We are all born ignorant, it takes a lot of work to remain stupid".- Ben Franklin.

Withour a doubt you have put in the time and effort to validate the point made by Franklin. And from what I have seen of your posts have a terminal case of it.

Thanks Will.

even hate filled will
gets something right. bush did rob us. he gave away our country to illegal invaders, and he refused to veto the pork persistently budgeted by democrats and rinos. but tell me, hateful will, if a robber came along and took your wallet, why would you search untill you found an entire crime family, and offer them your car, house, and clothes? wasnt it enough to lose your wallet? yes, you are right. you "won" the right to lose everything.

Pessimistic optomism
I have been mainly an up-beat sort of guy but not concerning the zillions being 'appropriated' by the Gov't. I actually hope this fiscal chicanery termed 'bail-outs' fails stupendously. I'm not afraid to stand in a bread-line. Nothing would be too high a price to pay to see this sort of governing policy go belly-up. What else is going to purge dithering Americans of the false hopes of 'hand-out prosperity'?

Bush was Bad, but this is *much* worse

To those who complain that conservatives have not complained about the Bush spending, please get real. Here is an article I wrote in 2004 about the ballooning spending:

The Growing Federal Deficit is Bush's Fault
http://www.emarotta.com/article.php?ID=55

The fact that Bush spent too much doesn't change the fact that this Congress and this President made the entire Bush administration seem frugal by passing their first piece of legislation.

Let's curb government spending by curbing government.

A danger to Seniors
There is a rumor circulating that Obama has drafted an executive order for the confiscation of firearms owned by citizens over 60.
The NRA debunks the rumor!

Please spread this link as far as you can.
It is not good for old people to become very angry.

http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=4404

Who Read It?
Did anybody read this thing, this stimulus plan? Did Prager? Doesn't sound like he did.

I don't like anything I've "heard" is in this deal, but I would like specifics.

When my Pentagon friends arrest Congress, send the White House folk back to their own home, and suspend the Supreme Court, I will feel OK with all that, if I can get some specifics, or read a commentator, who reads the whole thing, before commenting.

Then we can pin some of those specifics to the rabble (Congress), as we parade them through the streets, my crowd chanting, "Never Again."

WE HAVE BEEN FINANCIALLY DISARMED
The headline for this section on Pamela Geller's Atlas Shrugs site says it all.

'WE HAVE BEEN FINANCIALLY DISARMED'

She says: "Much commentary on the trillion-plus "stimulus package" has noted its wastefulness and expansion of government power into every crevice of an individual citizen's life. But no one has caught what should be blindingly obvious: We have unilaterally disarmed ourselves of the financial power to wage war. The cost of this bill surpasses the total outlay of the combined wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and will serve as the irrefutable excuse for Obama's previously-expressed desire to de-weaponize our military. As the bill's costs mount - in welfare payments, health expenses, union kickbacks and more - we will simply be unable to summon the financial strength to answer attacks on our country."

But then, we shouldn't be surprised. The evidence was there that Barack Obama doesn't have the best interests of our nation at heart, before the election. Read my compilation A Vet Looks at Barack Obama at
http://BillLong.BlogTownhall.com

Stockholders: Revolt!
Let's face it: we voters are all responsible for the national hangover we're in now. We thought we could spend, spend, and spend and there would be no day of reckoning. The balloon has collapsed and our toys are disappearing. President Bush thought it would go on forever and President Obama is not a builder, but the supervisor of the wrecking crew, who will complete the destruction of an affluent America.

It futile to blame Bush and Obama, however, because we Americans are the stockholders and we voted in the wrong CEOs. Dark days are ahead unless we have a real stockholder revolt.

We should remember the great advice of President Calvin Coolidge: the business of America is business. It's not trying to solve every problem in the world by throwing money at it. It's about creating real businesses that hire able people to produce real products.

It's not about lawyers who are leeches on a productive society. They are sucking the blood out of our country and that rampage probably will continue for four years.

It's time we citizens woke up and demanded good government and if our pleas are rejected to grab the torches and besiege the castle.

Jerseyvet
I blame not only the scummy lawyers but the stupid fools on the juries who AWARD these prizes.

There should be no surprise that the DNC is made up of 100% lawyers!

ALSO ALL....

Swing by the Anti Liberal Zone (click on my name) for a great new food item from the Left as well as a searing video of liberalism in action!

Give Jorge Bush Proper Acknowledgment
Prager has it correct but lets be fair and balanced and start the discussion while Jorge Bush was still in the driver's seat. The first "stimulus" was all Bush and the stupid Paulson. If government stimulus is bad, that is among the worst -- and the recipients of the first $350 will not even disclose what they did with the money. Why? They were not required to do so, just take the money. Any Republicans vote for the $700b? You bet, they were told that the world would end if they didn't. Well, it didn't and the fear that our financial process would go under. Guess what? It is under, and Obamamama and the libs are making sure there is nothing left of the original US. Who's to blame? I choose Jorge Bush and the Republican politicians. They made the choice to continue the globalism, open borders, free trade -- follow the CFR ideology. Bush could have stopped the run on the mortgage market by exposing the truth and could have stopped the run on the financial markets by exposing the speculators. His people were no doubt fully aware of what was going on. Just look at what he allowed to go on about the two border cops who were protecting me and others. He has several loose bolts. I voted for him twice but look at the choice of him versus a lib Dem. Now look what has transpired - open border Republican establishment. One can blame the Demos and libs for creating the possibilities but during 8 years of Jorge, it could have been stifled.

The Cyclist
"So now the very people that have been demonizing big corporations, wall street, pharmaceuticals, etc. are now going to see what life is like without them."

EXACTLY!

Sweets to the sweet and I for one, hope they enjoy it.

TeeHall
Bush 43 was not a Conservative and never was one. Also, don't forget that the guy advising him, Paulson, IS A LIB!

Another mistake Bush made. Allowing libs into his administration.

To Dennis Pragers Kids #2
Kids, don't pay attention to will of ca's ridiculous rants. You were smarter than will when you emerged from the womb, and will has 1 1/2 feet in the grave now. Your dad is right. Your dad is telling the truth, and now you are responsible to take that truth, and do something good with it. God Bless you and Good Luck.

Appropriate name...Madoff...Madeoff
Isn't it ironic that one of, if not the biggest {stimulus bill still in the running} swindlers in world history is named "madoff...made-off"...perhaps we could add "ripoff" as we ponder the new welfare state envisioned and pursured by the Democrats. Why can't they just admit what they are doing and let the American people see its conclusion and then judge the benefits. Why must they distort reality? They know precisely what the Bill is doing...many Democrats openly admit that Obama isn't going far enough with his welfare spending; they remain very concerned he hasn't gone far enough to achieve that socialistic-european goal; more tax money is needed! What other proof is needed? Come on liberals, openly admit to your ideas/philosophies and let the "good times" roll if they are so good and a "stimuli"...or could it be just a "sting"...what does Redford think??

The Pendulum
The pendulum is swinging so far this time - and it will likely swing just as far the other way. But Republicans won't be there to guide the swing after there's hyperinflation, to keep it from swinging too far. We saw this in Europe, in the 1930s.

Wonder who'll be the scapegoats this time?

Cut to the Chase
Read Laura Hollis' column today.

Joel NV
Joel, I can understand where you are coming from, but we are all anonymous here. I know you don't know who I know -- for instance. But you go on believing what you believe, most folks do believe the same.

That's why, when the time comes, it is so easy for my friends to do what their duty will call for.

The military is the force by which our Constitution exists. This piece of paper is more important than anything else, when it is abided by, and the remedies are in it, when it is not.

IS OBAMA STUPID?
No he is not stupid.

He fully understands that the spending bill will reverse all the gains made under Ronald Reagan and institute all the entitlement programs the liberals have been longing to establish.

Dependency creates votes, Democrats see this and are quick to act with the spending bill. Power not freedom is what the Democrats are after. Democrats now get to pick the market winners and losers, will the investors feel confident in the artificially governmental propped up businesses?

In the short run Obama is a brilliant man able to charm and teleprompter his message to the people. He will sign many spending bills popular with Americans hungry for government entitlements. There are far too many ignorant Americans still enamored with Obama, the anti-Bush, to let him fail.

In the long run Obamanomics will lead to almost irrevocable damage to the economy, exponentially increase the debt and deficit, and will reduce America's strength in the world.

Who would want to invest in America with its' weak dollar, falling markets, and prohibitive tax laws?

Obama believes in peace through weakness and appeasement to our enemies.

Great Depression II here we come, sooner than you think.

HORRAY FOR HAZEL (AKA-barry)
The middle class (including non-taxpayers, illegal aliens and probably soon to be released prisoners and terrorists) are getting a raise!
If it's $8.00 a week, that's a $1.60 a day, if it's $13.00 a week, that's $2.56 a day (surely enough to buy government mandated 'fuel efficient' cars). Anyhow, what percentage increase will this be? 1% or maybe 2%?
Now then, what will be the pecentage rate increase in middle class taxes (for those of us who actually do pay our taxes, unlike gueithner, rangle, daschle etc.) when Bushs' tax cuts expire in 2010? If you think it'll be only 1% or 2%, you've just bought and 'billed' to your kids that 'Bridge to Socialism' that barry and his liberal left sold you with sweet talking lies.

H.D.
Sickened by a half-naked blonde? You're kidding right? Women are the most beautiful creation God created.

Bye the way G.W. Bush was no conservative Republican, he erred by going along in a bi-partisan manner with the spending the congress sent to him. Do not fool yourself into thinking that all Republicans blindly followed Bush just like not all liberals blindly follow Obama.

As far as Obama leading us into socialism, you're correct we're already there and Obama is deeply committed to keeping us there.

just a thought !
My wife & I have decided to not spend one cent anywhere on presidents day while our present president is in office.This is not much but it's our way of showing nonsupport for the president & his stimulus package.Now I only wish another 5 million people felt the same way we do! would you please join us?

Leftist are so blind ...
Cyclist, you are absolutely correct. When business does well, employment remains high and tax revenues stream in to fund government. When you tax and limit the ability of business to make money, employment shrinks and tax revenues shrink. All the government entitlements cannot be funded. All of you socialist out there are about to get your just desserts. We are heading for Jimmy Carter unemployment and inflation levels. You leftist are too blinded by ideology to understand real economics. You are too blind to realize you are socialist which is one step away from communism. It won't work any better here than it has anywhere else and it has NEVER worked anywhere, despite what Michael Moore would have you believe.
Will, you are so stupid or sick with Bush Derangement Syndrome that your argument difies itself. Congress just authorized spending in more in one year, than Congress under Bush spent in 8 years. What Obama in spending money on is not UNDOING anything other than undoing some of the freedoms that were restored under Bush. Obama and the Democrats are paying off their political supporters and assuring rules changes are made that will keep them in power. It is all being done under the lie of a stimulus. The only stimulus is for leftist agenda agents.
Dave RIP USA, I agree with you too. Obama is not stupid and the people pulling the strings are not stupid. They are making sure that a majority of the people are dependent on government so they can buy votes. They will control the press and spread their propoganda and silence those who oppose them. Until We the People wake up, it will continue. Unfortunately, because leftist control education, we the people are now mostly too uneducated to be able to understand what is going on.

Spending is stimulus!
This is the dumbest column I think I've ever read on townhall, and that's saying a lot.

What does Dennis think is the difference between a stimulus bill and a spending bill. Spending IS stimulus. Spending money is what stimulates the economy. Does Prager think you stimulate the economy by slashing the federal budget and laying off workers?

Most estimates are that this bill will create or save 3.5 million jobs. That's not stimulus?

I suppose he would be all for the Republican plan, which was to enact four trillion dollars in tax cuts. It's a recipe for certain bankruptcy for the country.

And Dennis should really apologize to his kids for supporting an administration that added 5 trillion dollars to our national debt and didn't add any new jobs! He was all for spending a trillion dollars to help the Iraqis; but he's dead set against spending the money here at home to help his fellow Americans!

The Republican Party is currently going insane. Dennis Prager is insane. The things he says have no connection with reality. He said yesterday on his show that he doesn't have an agenda. Is there anyone out there who believes that? Anyone?

The frightening thing is that I think he sincerely believes that he doesn't have an agenda.

Hey, Prager, a suggestion: hire a professional, unbiased ombudsman and ask them to go over your old shows and make a determination as to whether or not you tend to favor Republicans over Democrats in your reporting and your commentary.

Phylo out.

The perfect storm
Monthly unemployment figures in the half million range allowed the fear factor to prevail in passing this bill.

It's not unlike the fear factor Bush/Cheney/Powell used in passing the resolution that allowed for the invasion of Iraq.

It's distressing that a spending bill has been passed when a stimulus bill is needed for economic recovery.

Still, just as the Iraq war hasn't spelled the destruction of this country, neither will this current spending bill. It's possible some provisions might stimulate certain sectors and even create or save some jobs.

For the doomsday crowd who rant that this bill will end the USA as we know it, all I can say is "Get a grip."

Obama is God!
Dennis Prager is a total loser.

Phylo
You cant be as dumb as you seem in that post. I pray to God you arent! Oh course spending is stimulus. The problem is WHERE does the money you want to spend come from! Hussein will borrow it (borrowing is debt) or he will print it (a devalued dollar). Debt doesnt stimulate anything and if printed money made countries rich no country would be poor.

Tax cuts on the other hand leave money in the hands of those who earn it. Having more money in your pocket would be stimulative. Tax rebates or one time checks dont have the same effect because they are isolated but permenant tax cuts result in money people can count on.

eddie
you are hilarious

Some other quotes
"The disconnect between their past actions and the requirements of the present crisis lend credibility to the charge that Republicans are just being petulant and partisan." –– Jonah Goldberg, conservative columnist.

socialism
I wouldn't blame it just on one person - Obama. If Mccain was elected he would be doing exactly the same. He even suspended the campaign to get stimulus going - no oversight, no accountability, no brain. Bush put us into this crisis and Obama will not get us out. Why? because Americans are now socialists. Look what's happaening in th States. They are deeply in debt. Silly - to conclude that Dems are to be blamed. American public, educational sysytem and the media are to be blamed.

Phylo
"I suppose he would be all for the Republican plan, which was to enact four trillion dollars in tax cuts."

What is wrong with that plan?

Give me your reasons for why you think that your personal wealth should go to programs that support Henrietta the House Grifter.

Explain to me how government spending is better than individuals in the free markets.

I'll wait.

2010
Take back the House.

Phylo
Whats the citation for that Jonah Goldberg "quote"?

I really can't figure this out...
Why is our current president, members of congress, MSM, and the liberal bloggers blaming EIGHT years of the previous administration for our current financial woes when it is so EASILY determined that NONE of this crapola started until the democrats took over congress? (Sure, congress under the republicans was not what any of the masses were expecting. That is a given.)

Are the abovementioned people just idiots, or do they think we are just sheep being led to the sheering corrals?

I predict that within the next 2 years, there will be so many people that will take what little money they have left and tuck it under the mattress, and the rich tucking it in offshore properties, that Obama and his minions will be completely unable to spend anything and be forced to raise our taxes to a level not seen in 50 years.

Hopefully, there will be a sea change in congress.

Daniel

PHYLO IS DELUSIONAL:
Obama's "spread the wealth" economic philosophy takes economic power from the sector of society that produces wealth and transfers the wealth to the non producers, the federal goverment.

The confiscated wealth will wind up in the hands of the politicians first and then maybe trickle down to the people it was intended to help. Rest assured most of the pork will be consumed by the politicians before it gets to the slobs it is supposed to help.

Once the first round of spending is over, another round will be necessary to keep the new Washington D.C. bureaucracies alive. Endless cycles of government taxes and spending to feed the omnivorous beast of socialism.

The spending bill relies on government to artificially control the market and weakens the capitalist system that is responsible for the wealth and standard of living our nation enjoys.

Phylo you need to realize Obama is not a free market capitalist, he is a community organizing radical socialist with a charming demeanor and you have been duped by the master.

n
The problem is a drop in demand. The drop in demand is the result of fear about people losing their jobs and their investments; not because their taxes are too high.

And because people are tightening their purse strings, companies aren't making as much profit, which puts downward pressure on their stock price and puts companies that were running on low margins at risk of going out of business, which puts more people out of work, which continues the downward spiral.

If you put more money in the pockets of the well-off right now, they will use it to by t-bills. That does nothing for the economy. Nothing. It doesn't create or save one single job. It doesn't enrich one single company. You are literally better off giving someone food stamps. At least that goes back into the economy.

The only way to stop the downward spiral is to create and save jobs. When people feel more confident that they will have a steady paycheck coming in, they will feel more confident about spending money again. And when they start spending, companies will start to see their profits rise, and their employees won't feel so nervous about losing their jobs. And when investors see signs that profits are going up, they will get back into the market which makes the stock market go up. And when people will see their investments doing better, and they will feel free to spend more money, etc.

There is a time for trickle down, and a time for trickle up. This is the time for the latter.


Dave
No, you've been duped into believing he's a radical socialist. Wait until you see what he plans to do with the entitlement programs. That's coming soon. He is fully aware that SS and Medicare are currently unsustainable and is prepared to make adjustments.He talked about this with Republicans and they were impressed by his level of commitment. We'll see how radical he is then, okay?

How bad was the Republicans?
All those demoncrats that come here to write against the FIRST SIX years of republican control of congress of the last EIGHT YEARS, what can you prove beyond a doubt, what the republican party did to cause this financial problem? I can look up facts and figures from non party sites and reports, and the fall started after the demoncrats took control of congress in 2006. The demoncrats took donations from almost every bank and institution that has failed or is likely to fail. Some republicans reached across the row to help the demoncrats ruin this country so that they could blame President Bush and win any and all elections. Obama has yet to stop campaigning and settle down in the White House to do the people's business. Has he done anything that can be directly shown that something was started by him, pushed by him, and passed into law by him? It's been 30 days and nothing has shown up that has his personal touch to it.

Phylo
The problem with your analysis is that governement cannot create wealth, becuase it has to take wealth (money) from the economy in taxes and recycle it back in through programs. This is not wealth creation, especially one that is "putting back" 800 billion dollars, which is a drop in the bucket. Microsoft puts that much into the economy by itself. People create wealth and jobs. Companies and businesses create jobs with their excess profits they use to expand their business. If government takes part of the profit in taxes, this money cannot be used to expand the economy.

Americean
See my response to n.

I know you think that tax cuts would mean more revenue to the treasury. But that's a lie in the current situation. It would mean far less, at a time when we are already at trillion dollar deficits. If anything, we are currently on the left side of the Laffer curve.

And tax cuts for the well-off would most likely go into t-bills which would do zero to stimulate the economy.

Phylo
The government "creating" and saving jobs is moronic. The problem that I highlighted in my last post still remains. The problem is where does the money come from to stimulate the economy? The government should be in the business of creating NOT jobs but an business environment that encourages job creation in the PRIVATE sector. And you need to get away from your class warfare stance. Doesnt EVERYONE who pays taxes entitled to keep more of their own money? Why are you oppsed to tax cuts for everyone?

Hey Phylo:
Your economic thought is akin to someone saying "I have invented a better wheel".

Free market capitalism works, you can not create jobs by taxing people and corporations to death.

If your reasoning is followed people will spend regardless of how much they're taxed as long as they do not fear losing their jobs. And your solution to job creation is to allow the federal government to handle it, not the free market! You aimlessly ramble we can not give the wealthy buinessman more money in his pocket because he will not spend it on his business ressulting in higher wages and job growth.

Phylo, with geniuses like you in Minnesota I'm now beginning to understand how you could elect a buffoon like Al Franken to represent you and champion your economic stupidity.

That's easy
>Explain to me how government spending is better than individuals in the free markets.<

Part of the problem was that individuals have been spending money that didn't exist, i.e. on credit cards and home equity based on bubble housing prices. Much of this consumer-driven spending ended up overseas as our manufacturing base dissolved.

If government spends on construction, manufacturing and research projects which employ people in the private sector, there is certainly a "trickle down" effect.

The most obvious government spending that is better than money to individuals is in the defense industry, which is primarily spent internally.

The most obvious misuse of government spending is an increase in food stamps so people can upgrade from generic bon bons to brand name bon bons while sitting on the couch watching reruns of "Cops."

Luck dog
There can be a symbiotic relationship between government and private industry. Government can create the soil in which private industry can thrive. Private industry cannot survive without government. There would be no courts to enforce contracts, for example.

Right now the private sector is frozen up with fear. The government can temporarily step in and unfreeze the private sector by giving it a little stimulus. Without that stimulus, things could continue to spiral out of control.

I agree that we can't rely on government to create all jobs, but no one is claiming that. No one.

Don't get stuck in an ideological rut. You have to be flexible enough to do things differently when the situation calls for it. The problem with the GOP right now is that their solutions are inappropriate for the circumstances. Taxes are not too high right now. Demand is too low. And tax cuts for the well-off will not increase demand.

The sheep don't care about truth or
facts, all they care about is the check and the handouts, that is how the fakeacrats have them programmed. pelosi who is worth at least $65 millions and her buddies, will add to that wealth and that power, while their moron electoral, better known as the "sheep," will get more handouts, section 8, food stamps, afavorite action ....all the "blue" government dependant leach states will get more money for their leach hand out failed socialist programs and the sheep will continue to follow.
when a nation has so many lazy, ignorant voters and the opposition is not strong, bold and aggressive enough, these are the results. Money and Power to the fakeacrats manipulators and handouts to the sheep, while hard working honest people suffer.....but for how long ?
the fakeacrats sheep only read the headlines and follow in line, that is why they are so easily manipulated, why a "spending and handout" bill can be called "stimulus," that is why pelosi can call anything "investement," why a move to shut down the free speech of the opposition can be manipulated to be in the name of "fairness," ignoring the free market and using the government to impose it's will, when the fakeacrats are in power. the fakeacrats sheep don't think, maybe in the future, hopefully very soon, they will start to wake up, till then we better be heard while we still have that "right."

Socialism
is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gosple of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
-Winston Churchill

some false assumptions
You people seem to think that I believe that government should create all jobs and that there should be no private industry. I have never said that, or even thought it. I don't personally know anyone who thinks that. I doubt that there is anyone in America who thinks that. Barack Obama certainly doesn't.

I believe that government is best at creating and maintaining "the commons" (i.e., roads, bridges, education, national security, healthcare, the courts, regulatory functions, law enforcement, fire, etc.) I believe that a country with a strong commons is good soil in which private industry can thrive. I generally like lower taxes, but I believe that the wealthy should pay a higher percentage of taxes than the working class because I think it's bad for society when there is too much of a spread between the wealthy and the working class. I am opposed to plutocracies. I believe full-on communism, and full-on free-market capitalism are opposite extremes, and that we need to find a healthy balance between the two.

Now stop throwing around wild accusations about what I believe. Okay?



"More Simpler"
People here are making complex arguments for and against tax cuts. They will stimulate this and that. Tax increases will provide this and that, etc..

How about

IT'S NOT GOVERNMENT'S MONEY!
IT'S NOT PEOPLE ON WELFARE'S MONEY!
IT'S NOT THE FARMER'S MONEY!
IT'S NOT THE REST OF THE WORLD'S MONEY!

It's the taxpayer's money.

The average taxpayer has a total tax burden of 40%. Take a married couple where one makes 60K and the other making 40K. The one making 40K works ENTIRELY FOR THE GOVERNMENT!

Wake up people.




n
n writes: Doesnt EVERYONE who pays taxes entitled to keep more of their own money? Why are you oppsed to tax cuts for everyone?

Phylo: Why don't we just have zero taxes then? Since EVERYONE is ENTITLED to keep MORE of their own money.



Phylo:
I have seen what Obama plans to do with entitlements and entitlement spending. How do you think he got elected? By promising capital gains, corporate, and personal income tax cuts and reducing the size of government? No! Obama was elected because of the promise of free healthcare, free education, housing subsidies, free childcare, and cradle to grave nanny state socialism.

Americans love a handout, we are the spoiled generation.

The bottom line is government has no business feeding, housing, clothing, educating, or providing healthcare for those of us with strong minds and bodies capable of doing it ourselves.

The level of people expecting government to save us from ourselves has reach unmanageable numbers. America is collapsing under its' own weight of government entitlements and meddling in the private sector.

It is entitlement grubbing sponges like yourself that want America to fail as a free market society.

Phylo
Do you know WHY the "private sector is frozen up with fear"? because the government is making it more expensive to do business in America. Just like individuals businesses' should keep more of the money they earn. Make it cheaper for them to run a business and you will see enormous growth.

Phylo 2
"The problem is a drop in demand. The drop in demand is the result of fear about people losing their jobs and their investments; not because their taxes are too high."

I have a book: it is entitled, "The General Theory of Employment, Interest, and Money". It was written by John Maynard Keynes.

I have read this book cover-to-cover many times, and that is how I know that you quote above is straight out of that line of thinking.

You are not new to these forums. You have participated in many threads here in the past, and therefore, it is without reservation that I can state clearly to you the following...

Keynesian economic theory has been tried repeatedly. It has failed repeatedly.

You know this. It has been pointed out to you with historical facts and data, bolstered by Treasury Secretaries quotes like Morgenthau, and yet, you continue to believe in its effectiveness.

It failed under Hoover, FDR, and Ford. It failed with the Japanese. It is not a partisan failure; its failure is ubiquitous.

I asked you why you think that giving the tax cuts the Republicans were pushing for was a bad idea; and, you responded with Keynes.

I shall refine the question so that you may have no doubt about its import, and I shall use your own words in effect...

You state that the well-off will put money into T-Bills, which will be used to pay off this massive debt.

The question is, how do you expect taxpayers to pay for investments, pay for staples, create demand for goods and services, companies to hire and generate more goods and services, and the like, when...

You put government at the head of the line for all of the above?


Phylo
Government's role is to protect businesses and customers from corruption and to make sure companies follow the law. That part of your response is correct. But tax raises have never been shown to stimulate an economy. The opposite is true. The Bush tax revenues were higher than any of the Clinton years and he cut taxes. The economy is receding now as it did in 1913, 1929, 1950, 1979, 1998 and now. We recovered from all of those and the 30s was the only one the government tried to "help" and it took 12 years and a major war to correct. All the others recovered in 1 to 2 years without government intervention, and the 1950 recession was still worse than the one we are in now. It is a nromal cycle correction. No economy has ever constantly increased in wealth. We the peoeple will correct this recession not the government.


Generic ranting
That's about all anyone can say about ProudtobeanAmerican's #49.

You're just as much of a sheep as the people you accuse, except your myopia is coming from the opposite extreme.

It used to be that if one was proud to be an American they at least attempted to embrace the nation as a whole as opposed to disintegrating into a purely partisan position that offers no positive contribution.

Proud to be a whiner would be more accurate.

Luckydog1
You are correct.

It is a harbinger of the misguided myopic thinking that everything is a "right".

A right to healthcare; a right to have a house (even if you can't afford it); a right to vote; a right to choose; a right to live with no recessionary cycles in an economy.

Government has been at the heart of this social thinking, and it has strayed so far from what the founders intended.

They were right.

Phylo
I apologize for reading what you wrote then.

So lets move on to taxing the "wealthy". Where does 'wealthy" start? What do you think the consequence is of taxing the "wealthy" at a higher rate? Do you believe a higher tax on the wealthy will encourage or discourage people from making money? I believe an environment where EVERYONE has the possiblity of becoming wealthy is better then keeping an artifical ceiling on success. You REALLY need to contemplate the unintended consequences of a higher tax rate on the "wealthy"

Misconception
One must not confuse "wealth" with "worth".

Barack's Balloon
Phylo, the so-called "Stimulus" package is going to stimulate a record increase in taxes by the Democrats, which, like drug addicts, they can't resist raising every time they have a majority.

When you visualize America in a couple of years, think Japan in the Eighties and Zimbabwe right now--runaway inflation.

The only thing liberals can run--but not well--is their mouths.

We can recover...
from this stimulus debacle, it ain't over yet. I couldn't stand his supporters but, I'll vote for Ron Paul if he runs again. At least his rhetoric is that of someone who seriously hates big government and would never cross party lines over this piece of ....

PANCHO IN UTAH:
Point out one thing in ProudtobranAmerican's reply #49 that was not dead on. You can not.

One of Obama's goals is to keep the proletariat wanting entitlements and expecting government to provide what people should provide for themselves. He's been very successful because of the collective political IQ of the voters is so low. This is the basis of his and Democratic power.

Obama wants America under Democratic control. The Fairness Doctrine, the control of the census, the speed at which the spending bill was rammed through, and the billions for ACORN are all proof of that power grab.

The majority of voters want Obama to wipe their butts and provide cradle to grave security because their too lazy to do it for themselves.

We have been dumbed down. Obama is living proof.

n
At a certain point, taxes become so burdensome that it decreases economic activity. It's called the Laffer curve. But it's not easy to tell where that point is. (See the neo-Laffer curve.) I believe that we are at, or near the top of the Laffer curve. Which means that it's about optimal. Though I think that, until we balance the budget, we need to increase revenues to the treasury by way of a small (4%) increase in the top rates. I don't think such a small increase will effect the economics of the well-off enough to alter their behavior.

I also think it's unfair that wealthy people who live off of capital gains and dividends have a top rate of 15%, while the well-off working class has to pay 35%. I could go for a small (5%) increase in the capital gains tax until we shore up our deficit.

I would also like to see significant cuts in the military. We spend more than the rest of the planet combined on military. That, too, is a huge burden on our economy, and a large reason why we have tax rates as high as we do.

As far as corporate tax rate: as a percentage, companies operating in the US pay the second lowest rate as a percentage of GDP of all the industrialized nations. We don;t need to lower that any more.



Ramos Released 47 Minutes Ago

Off topic, but the matter has been of considerable importance to many.

Now, that there is an open prison bed, who in our corrupt Gooberment will be first in line to occupy it?

Watching infomercials
>I believe an environment where EVERYONE has the possiblity of becoming wealthy is better then keeping an artifical ceiling on success.<

That rush to get wealthy was a large contributor to the housing bubble which is a key component of this recession.

Too many informercials, too many seminars and too many people believing that for no money down and virtually no personal investment, wealth could be created through real estate.

When toxic assets are estimated in the trillions, you have to realize that what was considered wealth was actually false wealth.


RIP
At least you're honest with your name, indicating that you hate America and are cheering for its demise.

PHYLO, CORPORATE TAX RATES:
Japan 39.54
United States 39.27
Germany 38.9
Canada 36.1
France 34.43
Belgium 33.99
Italy 33.0
New Zealand 33
Spain 32.5
Luxembourg 30.38
Australia 30.0
United Kingdom 30.0
Mexico 28.0

Your wish to keep screwing the top earners in our society will lead to even greater divestment in America. Who would want to invest in us? Our dollar will weaken significantly after the spending bill gets signed, America's credit rating will go lower the more we borrow, and inflation will skyrocket from the worthless money being printed to pay for this era of Obama entitlement.

You are seriously misguided.

LAURA HOLLIS

.....A MUST READ - FIVE GOLD STARS .....COLOSSUS

Good article, Dennis
True statement: No one should be surprised. Americans voted for a man who said time and time again that he wanted to transform America. He and his party are trying to do precisely that.
Dangle the carrot and most will lurch for it, what ever it causes in the future. Those who voted for Obama and the Democrat dominated Congress, heard however failed to hear. Now, beginning to 'through a dark veil' see just what they voted for. Well, it gets worse. If people had truly cared enough for their freedom and the very existence of this last bastion of freedom, Obama may have gotten 10% of the vote. However here we are. Many are saying, Vat Now Komraden?
This 'stimulus package' is a destroyer, with no hope of ever being repaid.

Phylo
You are so off base about the tax rates is unbelieveable. The 1st line of your last post was: "At a certain point, taxes become so burdensome that it decreases economic activity" so you and I agree taxes are burdensome but you still want more taxes?

Why not just tax everyone at the same rate? 15% is 15% for everybody. You earn more you pay more. That sounds fair to me.

Cut military? What is it with you libs and the "rest of the world"? WHO CARES!!!!! Its the governments #1 job to protect us! Thats what the military is there! What we dont need is depts of education, transportation, agriculture, homeland security, Icould go on and on.

It's all an Illusion
Today is a sad day in America. Signing this bill into law with fanfare... it's a wonder how so many seemingly rational people can't see the disaster this will surely cause.

http://aselinm.blogspot.com/2009/02/illusion-of-stimulus.ht ml

Ramos Released


Off topic, but the matter has been of considerable importance to many.

Ramos released an hour ago.

Now, that there is an empty prision bed, which corrupt politician will be the first in line to occupy it?

Jim SC
I'll surely join you here in Ar.
Will only buy what is basic necessity for the Obama years, how long that may be.
For years I and my wife look at the manufacturing tag of anything we buy. If not made in this country, we will not purchase it unless we can't find one made in this country. We have found that you sometimes can't tell, but we decided if the tag says distributed by ---, it's from another country.
Hand in there and if you can, grow much of your food. Better for you anyway, has no preservatives.

PANCHO:
I do not hate my country, RIP USA is the statement I choose to make because of the 180 degree turn our country has taken away from the original intent if the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

Opressive taxes.

Obama's socialism.

Porous borders allowing illegal immigration to infect our country.

Weakness in the fight against Islamic Terrorists.

Reliance on government handouts.

Centralized economic planning.

The Fairness Doctrine.

Liberalism.

Intervention in foreign entaglements.

In summary Pancho, America has turned from a capitalistic, free market, self-reliant, small government society to socialism in less than 250 years.

We need a revolution
All I know is this...we were losing about 80,000 jobs a month until November, since, at least 230,000 month. Coincidence?

"The inherant virtue of capitolism in the unequal sharing of blessings. The inherant vice of socialism is the unequal sharing of miseries." Churchill

This is a watershed moment in our history. We will look back at this at the beginning of our demise UNLESS WE DO SOMETHING!!!!

This could have at least have been significantly delayed if three Republicans did the right thing. They must suffer the consequence as a result to contributing to our demise. Let's get them voted out!!!

2nd Amendment
It's in the Constitution specifically to acknowledge the RIGHT of the American people to have at their disposal the means by which to overthrow a corrupt, unresponsive, entrenched government.

It's time for another armed revolution.

Madoff
Thank you

Jeff, Read Heller


SCOTUS ruled last summer that there is an individual right to own a firearm and no militia membership is required.

re: Mike - we need a revolution.

Generally agree with you ..

Let me help you a bit with that Churchill quote:

""The inherent virtue of capitalism in the unequal sharing of blessings. The inherant virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries." -- Winston Churchill

What you are seeing before you are the weaknesses inherent in "warm body" democracies. The most dangerous weapon in a representative government is a ballot, and the uninformed bearer often points that weapon at his/her own head.

v/r,

-- Bud

March Toward Totalitarianism
Prager says the characters of those who penned this bill are unlike Madoff; I disagree. I believe they are exactly like Madoff. Every last one of them are criminals and the perpetrators are pulling this con for exactly the same reasons as Madoff with one exception: they desire personal wealth and power. And they desire all others to be poverty-ridden. The dullards who keep defending this spending orgy are apparently too stupid to see what has happened in the socialist state of California that has bankrupted herself paying for illegal aliens, miscellaneous frivolous nonsense, medical bills, housing, and food for an underclass that cannot maintain itself. It is past time to cut these people loose and stop paying their bills. My opinion is that they either make it on their own or they do not make it at all; this is the customary way of nature. The unfit are removed from the gene pool. Unfortunately the voting laws permit corrupt politicians to secure office through the efforts of those who, frankly, have not earned the right to vote and those who pay the bills are screwed. Clinton and GWB advanced the socialistic cause and Obama will ratchet this up another step, I believe, into a march toward totalitarianism. The misery of this nation will, in my opinion, shortly be profound and perhaps then citizens will begin to see the circumstances foisted upon them by conniving Alinsky disciples and an undeserving welfare class. Earlier generations fought wars against people promoting these concepts.

Civil war
Jeff you are right . They are already intoducing bills to disarm us . But americans true to the constitution and the republic need to organize now. Our form of goverment is not the problem but the people who run it. It is time to rise up and if it means bloodshed, then so be it. Liberty is not free.I call on all vetrans who are of the same beliefs to organize. It is your duty under the constitution. That all able body men be part of a well formed militia.The seeds of war are being sewn.

Brother O'Bama...
Obama's dream/objectives and that of the power-hungry liberal socialist, such as Pelosi, are not necessarily the same but the mechanisms they have put forward will work for the mutual benefit. If you want to know what O'Bama's objectives/dreams are, think about the people who shaped his views/principles...Ayers, Wright...need I say more?

Pelosi, on the other hand, is interested only in gaining more control of voter's lives, thus having the position to give and take as is needed to control their vote...She and those like her are extremely selfish and self-serving. She worships at the alter of the Liberals...

O'Bama's change of tone is self-serving and is purposefully to paint the outlook as grim and him to be the only person capable (arrogance?) of saving our country...

My 85 year old uncle, whose judgement and observations have been so accurate over the years, our families are indebted to him for advising us last March to liquidate holdings of investments (stocks/properties) before November...and he predicts O'Bama will basically have a free reign for 4 to 5 months tops...and if he is not able to demonstrate a significant improvement of the country's outlook, one of two things will happen: 1.) Federal influence will take on a new meaning as he redefines those who begin to speak out against him as unpatriotic and they will feel the force of the gov't in a most unpleasant way, or 2.) a revolution from the ground up will begin and we will witness the rapid manner (similar to how the "stimulus" bill was passed) in which gun control will expand beyond H.R. 45's parameters and done so as a matter of national security...does this sound familiar?

here's a thought
if democrats crave the European model so much, why don't they move there. Their declining society seems to be a direction Obama is taking us. Maybe they want to destroy the incentive of the American dream, working your way up to success. They want a society where we are told to make x amount of product today, resulting in laziness and expecting the government to give us everything we want. Maybe they hate all the immigrants that come here,expecting a different world than their own, whose dream is to live in freedom. Whatever their dreams of "changing" America is, it certainly strays away from our founders' views.

No loyalty owed to a government...
...that breaks its own laws.I am happy beyond measure to read so many posts from people who advocate the 2nd amendment and all that implies. There has been a run on guns and ammo since Nov, and we all know why. I just pray the Joint Chiefs are ready to step in and take over. They've got more weapons than anything else in the world - no one can stop them, and I believe they all understand the Founders Original intent for our nation. We don't have to say,'bring it on' anymore. IT is here. Thanks, Dennis, for such clear insight. It just makes us all the more sure that this 'government' of the pork, by the cheat, and for the liars will not stand.

1 Day Per Week

Goobermint is spending borrowed and printed money, which will lead to eventual inflation, while the rest of us are cutting back.

For the last several months, I have gotten as much of my own financial house in order as possible and stopped spending money on anything at least one day each week.

Don't buy anything. Make your own lunch. Don't buy coffee or soft drinks.

Use that money to pay down your debt and save your money.

Obama is going to release the news next week that the current budget deficit will be $1.5T this year. This doesn't take into account future bailouts, spending to prevent foreclosures, on unfunded obligations like SS, Medicare, etc.

Start with 1 day a week.

Civil war is the only answer
It is time for Americans to defend the constitution.The time has come to exercise that right. It was given to us by the founding fathers for just this reason. They are trying to disarm us as we speak. America wake up the communist are at your doorstep. I call on all vetrans with the same ideals, to organize. the time is near when we will have to make a choice.

Vetrans
You are the best hope for America. You know what needs to be done. You are the group with the knowlege and the expeirence to organize quickly.I believe the leaders of the military will side with the people.They have no respect for the marxist that would give them orders. All in the civil goverment need to be purged. The media should be the first on the list.These traitors to the republic need to be tried for treason and executed.

Compean Released, As Well


Both Ramos & Compean were released this morning.

Look at CA
See your future, America. Runaway spending, looney enviro ideas, soak the "rich", kiss up to illegals. CA leads the nation, but Obama is going to catch the rest of you up real soon.

Heather
I think someone is knocking on your door. Better go check.

John Maynard Keynes, anyone?
Phylo said:
"n
The problem is a drop in demand. ..."

And then the entire run-down of Keynesian demand-side economic theory, the implementation of which failed during the Great Depression, and failed during the 1970s. Hopefully, I'll have time later today to go into this point by point, but I'm sure someone else will have covered it again. I can hardly believe my eyes when I see Keynesianism being promoted again.

Government pressure to make high-risk loans and government guarantees of security for making high-risk loans were what got us to this present state. That needs to be said and explained over and over again because it is being lost in the vague nonsense of Wall Street greed and "8 years of Bush economic policies."

Ruse
This economic crises is ruse. Hitler used the same tactics to transform germany so quickly and they paid the price.But if America goes to the communist then there is no savoir in the world. The carter economy was much worse than this. I beleive that this has all been by design to install a socalist goverment. Nakita Kruchev told us this is how it would happen, from within.

Jon
Jon my name is Ray I just comment on my wifes board. I am a marine vetran. So if they knock on the door I am well prepared.And if they don't bring the army they will be very suprised.I am not afraid to die for my beliefs as so many other people have done before. It is time for this asuault on democracy to be put down.

Flat Taxes
N said:

Why not just tax everyone at the same rate? 15% is 15% for everybody. You earn more you pay more. That sounds fair to me.

My reply:

Taxing everyone at the same rate will not punish "rich" people. That is the reason for so called "progressive" taxation. It has absolutely nothing to do with revenue.

PS jon
There a millions who think like I do. Not to mention the founding fathers.

the European model
That's an interesting phrase, but not very definitive, as there are vast differences between European countries.

When you claim the European model extols

>make x amount of product today, resulting in laziness and expecting the government to give us everything we want<

you can apply that to a segment of our own population as well as to most any European nation.

There are countries in Europe, Germany for instance, where the work ethic is currently much higher than ours. Their productivity per worker is higher, and their products generally superior to those manufactured here, especially in union heavy industries like autos.

The same can be said for most of Scandanavia, where production per worker is also high.

That's why socialism, as a definition, is harder to pinpoint than may initially seem.

Rather than point to a European model, it would make more sense to specify French, British, German, Romanian, Swiss or Swedish, since they are diverse in their economic and social structure.

Why from the left?
I keep seeing comments from those who support the left saying that Bush spent money like crazy and they were upset about that but its fine for Obammy to spend like crazy? What? Thats like being robbed at gunpoint and having to hand over your wallet and then a year later being robbed at gunpoint again only this time you tell the robber to follow you home and you give him your checkbook too! Thats crazy!

Heather, Or Ray actually!
Heather Location: NM
Reply # 9
Date: Feb 17, 2009 - 12:12 PM EST
Vetrans
"You are the best hope for America. You know what needs to be done. You are the group with the knowlege and the expeirence to organize quickly.I believe the leaders of the military will side with the people.They have no respect for the marxist that would give them orders. All in the civil goverment need to be purged. The media should be the first on the list.These traitors to the republic need to be tried for treason and executed."

I read your later posts and am wondering where did you serve? I also would like to thank you for your service, as I do to every veteran. I also believe you are right. I think our military service fight for freedom, of not only other countries, but ours as well. It seems a majority of the military voted republican anyways. You are EXACTLY right in the effect that this bill has nothing to do with the economy, but the changing into a socialist model. It seems the democrats idolize the failing societies of Europe. It's amazing, Europe has been around for so long, and yet America shot up to be the greatest country in the world in a short amount of time. Looks like Obama wants to reverse that trend.

The "Stimulus" Bill
Although I agree with most the article it comes too late to mobilize citizens' ire. We need more early warning articles that will light the fires of dissent so politicians cannot get away with their usual thievery.

Content AND timeliness is everyhting. I posted this two months ago:
The “recovery plan” (aka, bailout) and the “stimulus package” (aka, mega load of garbage) is nothing less than an advanced taxing scheme without representation.

The world’s economy is in contraction and, therefore, the production of goods and services must realistically decrease as demand decreases. Productivity plunges and, most important, fewer tax dollars are collected. Common sense says that it is time for all to tighten their belts, most of all government. Let the primary orchestrators of this financial/economic disaster feel the wrath of citizens and the judicial system must punish appropriately. But in the long term, the commercial sector must rescue itself with minimal government intervention. Government initially created this mess with misguided policy and the financial sector created the unsustainable Ponzi scheme to the demise of all. So government is definitely NOT the answer to “rescue” the economy with future, unearned, tax dollars. Government must minimize interference and let the economy self-correct. The only worthwhile role for government at this time is to prevent outright fraud and theft (they are experts at perpetrating these two criminal acts) and punish serious wrong doing, especially amongst their own. This is the quickest remedy but it’s foolish to think it won’t be temporarily an uncomfortable, even painful ride. This is the reason wrong doing must be ferreted out and punished so this kind of national, now world, crisis does not repeat itself.

stimulus
Anyone who thinks Bush or Obama have Americas best interests at heart is sadly mistaken. They all want the North American Union which leads to the New World Order. Right now Bill Gates is laying off American workers and keeping the lower paid Visa workers. So is Hewlett-Packard and Pfiser, etc. They don't want Americans because Americans want the fair wages and safe working conditions that we fought and sometimes died for. They want Dems and Reps fighting each other. They want illegals and Americans fighting each other. This will make it easier to establish the New World Order.

Take That, NY Slimes

One share of stock is worth around $3.50, which is less than a single Sunday issue.

The stock is down 79% in the past year.

And, the editors believe that it only because of the economy and not a result of their biased stance.

Obama is delusional:
Obama seems to be equating the entire country with some low income community he helped get government funding to in Chicago.

He believes in "spreading the wealth". The only problem is the country is much bigger and more complex than a low income community in Chicago.

Obama has gone from the little leagues to the pros with support from Soros, the MSM, and liberals easily duped by Obama's smooth act.

We are in the hands of Obama, the Great Socialist, the welfare state will grow out of control, entitlements will be impossible to roll back once they are established, and taxpayers will have their backs broken paying for Obama's socialism. Liberals everywhere will celebrate the demise of the free market and the silencing of those opposed to Obama's socialist agenda.

But after all it is what the majority of Americans voted for in 2008.

Stimulus
Doesn't the Kennedy/Bush amnesty plan give you the hint that it is not one party that is trying to kill America? McCain and Obama want the same thing. McCain was not there to win. He was there to stop anyone who had the chance to beat Obama.The mainstream media fixed it to where they were our two choices. Anyone who was against amnesty were quickly weeded out.Palin upset the apple cart. McCain was afraid she was going to get him elected.

illegals
What the illegals don't understand is when amnesty is passed they will be worse off than they are now. Millions more illegals will cross the border. The few jobs that are there now will be even less.
Since our health plan now covers illegals every sick person in every third world country who can get here will come here.
Diseases we eradicated yrs ago are back.

Notice to Dennis
Well, you can be sure of this: NO ONE will waste their time reading this in the future, so you can drop the nonsense at the beginning of this article. Nothing new. Nothing revelatory. Nothing worth reading.

stimulus
That $13 tax rebate is a slap in the face. I can see Pelosi and Reid and the others sitting around a table saying "We promised a tax break. We have to give them something." Pelosi says "the hell with it. Give them $13." and they all fall out laughing. Recovering from the laughing jab Reid says "Wait. We can actualy do that. We won. We can do anything we want.". Altho, I would like to thank them for my $13, it will probably change my life style, they can keep my $13 and try to buy some patriotism and integrity.

and again
Why do you think Bush is the hero/god of right-wingers?

We've spent more than $789 billion on Iraqi infrastructure? In one fiscal year? Show me the figures.

Bush nearly made it an oligarchy run by whom? How did he lose it?

What have we advocated that is like "invest[ing] with the Madoffs of the world?"

and again:
The cost to rebuild Iraq's infrastucture, even by liberal accounts, does not come close to the amount of spending in the pork bill Obama is about to sign.

In fact the total entire cost of both the Iraq and Afghanistan wars is roughly equivalent to the amout of spending Obama and Geithner propose to spend in just the first few months of the Obama administration!

Also you would be hard pressed to find any Republican or conservative happy with the way Bush spent taxpayers' money during his two terms. Bush, unlike Obama, is not revered in hero/Godlike terms.

illegals
Mexico is a wealthy country. They could have well afforded to create decent paying jobs for their people. Instead they force them to cross the border to feed their children. Big Business exploits them, giving them slaves wages. Obama and McCain profess compassion for these people. Oh yes that is the only reason they want amnesty. Where was their compassion when big business paid pickers by how much they picked, causing people to die in the fields from heat related illnesses. Whose fault is this besides big business? Mexican leaders who did not provide jobs.

President hussein
Has every intention of driving this country into the ground with this bill. he seeks to centralize the government and make the fed even bigger then it is right now. President Bush was fiscally irresponsible BUT to continue digging while up to our head sin a hole is stupid but its exactly what hussein is doing.

Myke, $13 on the 13th

"stimulus
That $13 tax rebate is a slap in the face. I can see Pelosi and Reid and the others sitting around a table saying "We promised a tax break. We have to give them something." Pelosi says "the hell with it. Give them $13." and they all fall out laughing. Recovering from the laughing jab Reid says "Wait. We can actualy do that. We won. We can do anything we want.". Altho, I would like to thank them for my $13, it will probably change my life style, they can keep my $13 and try to buy some patriotism and integrity."

REMEMBER, THEY PASSED THIS CR@PPER ON FRIDAY, THE 13TH.

THE JOKE WAS ON US AND ON THE UNLUCKIEST DAY OF THE CALENDAR YEAR, TOO.

Why Keynes' Theories are Inadequate
There are many reasons why this revamped stimulus bill will not work. In my opinion, these are a few of those reasons...

First; the bill is reactionary instead of proactive spending. The time to head off this economic downturn has passed. The warning signs were prevalent in 2005, and indeed, the banking commission was warned about such.

Like the unsophisticated investor who sees a mutual fund, or stock, that has generated a good return, and then goes into that fund or stock purchase will soon find that any effective growth has already occurred and will not match expectations.

Instead of crapping on Wall Street, we should be learning one of its biggest maxims: When the little guy gets in, it's time to get out.

Second, short-term spending does not equate to long-term growth.

Third, the myth that politicians will put the money in sectors of the economy that will create long-term growth.

They won't. This bill is proof of that.

So, there you have it. Just some reasons why Keynesian economic theory should not only be put out to pasture, it should have been fertilizing it from below.

Just a few facts
From the website NoStimulus.com:

Only 3.6% of the stimulus bill's $825 billion price tag would actually go to real, practical infrastructure projects--roads and bridges.

Most of the other 96.4% would go to special interest pet projects, and to cramming years’ worth of radical policy changes into the single largest spending and debt scheme in history.

Under the auspices of a “Comparative Effectiveness Review,” the package heavily funds the first steps towards the socialization and government-mandated rationing of health care. And this is just one of many government power grabs being shoehorned into the so-called “Stimulus Package.”

And just what sort of special interest giveaways and wasteful government spending are included in the so-called “Stimulus Package”? To name just a few...

- $4.19 billion in slush funds for ACORN, the left-wing advocacy group best known for allegations of voter fraud during the 2008 presidential campaign
- $600 million to buy brand new cars for government bureaucrats
- $335 million for adult sex workshops (one of the few line items which could conceivably deliver "stimulus" )
- $150 million for honeybee insurance
- $2.8 billion for the US Department of Agriculture in a misdirected program more likely be spent to build unnecessary broadband internet services in urban areas than in the rural areas that lack service.

stimulus
Andagain

I have friends that are Dems. We can discuss matters without name calling and insults. So why don't you stop giving Dems a bad name and write about the subject instead on insulting people. By what you wrote I am not sure what you are complaining about. But it is infantile to just call names. Were you the bully on the playground until someone kicked your rear?

Lipstick on a Pig
You can put lipstick on a pig but it will still be loaded with pork.

Bud
You are correct. I've always felt that each voter should have to answer a few simple questions before being allowed to vote, such as "Name one important policy your politician wants to enact." If they can't, they can't vote. Too many of Obama's supporters would never have been able to have voted for him if that had been the case.

"Titanic" Bill: Speed versus Heed
The "stimulus" bill became the "recovery" bill, but since Mr. Obama and Mrs. Pelosi are into politically correct words: This is a "deceit" bill.
Mr. Obama violates one of his own stump speeches about a transparent government that would guarantee a minimum of 5 days of public discussion or review (including internet publication) before legislation on his watch would get a vote. This bill got to a vote before Congress got to READ the versions pounded together by Mrs. Pelosi and the hard left Democrats in midnight, closed-door sessions.
Of course, it had to pass before Mrs. Pelosi--at taxpayers expense--flew to Florence, Italy to meet with "colleagues" at her level in the socialist government, which surrounds the Vatican.
Many of the elements of this bill would not START to take effect until after 2010. With stimulus that quick, a snail could win the Kentucky Derby.
In CA, we are living what the Federal Government is trying to accomplish: shrinking services, higher taxes and "fees", unions (especially teacher's unions) that negotiate from a place of exception, not excellence; and leadership that has bankrupted the Golden State with a Ponsi scheme with all the earmarks of Madoff and magic beans.
This is not sad, it is a sin.
Thank you, Mr. Prager, for your efforts to educate those vocal, starry-eyed folks who are likely to put more thought in their vote on "American Idol" than to distill the lies in this bill.

a question to all
These threads have been full of folks inquiring "what do we do to stop this?" and other folks advocating full out revolt. Before we go down a road we may live to regret, I have a question for everyone here; if there were a massive protest on the Capital Mall, say on July 4, 2009 would you come? A few friends and I have been brainstorming ideas, and this morning I sent out a few inquiries as to how to go about getting permits etc. What we have in mind, is very simple; a reminder to all of the elected officials in DC just who it is they work for, with a conservative, "we the people" slant. This event would be open to anyone who'd like to attend, and although I'm totally broke, like millions of other working people, I'd be willing to live in my van for the time it took to get this protest done. People it is obvious, no matter all the pretty, flowery words from the coward-in-chief and his minions (how else does one explain the whole "do-as-I-say-and-not-as-I-do attitude of San Fran Nan and her buds who just flew off to Italy for a grand vacation, and a president who stands before the nation decrying the "catastrophe" about to occur, but then jets off to Chicago for a night on the town with the missus and then puts off his "urgent" fix for four days while he sets up his propaganda laden signing infomercial!) they do not care, nor are they concerned with the will of the people. This is one idea I think has the potential of a "million man march" to let those crooks in DC know we are taking names and will hold them accountable for the destruction of our nation. What do you all think? If you want to send me an email, send it to:
tya2549@yahoo.com
THANK YOU TO All the conscientious objectors!

Today, the SEC has charged
Stanford Financial Group, and owner, Robert Stanford with fraud. Mr. Stanford has done nothing that the federal government has not been doing since the 1930s. Mr. Stanford's circumstance is only different because he can't print money. Their total obligations, social security and medicare, are $65.6 trillion. And they ain't got it now, and they got NO chance to get it the future, either. NONE!! There never was a "lock box" and there never will be one! If this ain't fraud, then what in the hell, is fraud? At some point in time, you would think that the American public would wake up to this immutable fact, that their federal government is dead, flat broke. How much longer will the few who still pay taxes, continue to do so? Why should the capitalists, prop up the fascists? That time is coming soon!

It is very simple
When you have a society that is living off barrowed money you are a collapse waiting to happen. Notice I said living off borrowed money. Not just spending or using borrowed money but living off of it. When a guy who works on a job and makes $24,000. a year and lives in a $150,000-$200,000 home and purchases Starbucks coffee on his way to work with a credit card that he is only making the minimum monthly payment, then you are looking for a financial disaster to happen. The credit ran out on so many and they could no longer purchase all the over-priced toys (that most could not afford or needed in the first place). With less purchases happening, then business will slow down. This is the "natural" correction of that kind of spending. Business will go back down to the size needed to match the demand for products and services.

Basically the ONLY way to get things back to where they were before would be to have banks lend to anyone who has a pulse and let the whole thing build up again. Of course this will only lead to another collapse. Let’s face it. Its time to get back to a cash and carry society who also has savings. It’s better for the consumer and business. Less loss on both ends!

its a bird its a plane !
no its just barry with a huge jumbo size pen and a gallon of ink!he signs the papers to bring home the bacon,the new white house pet porkzilla!

TO NANETTE,THAT WAS A SICK COMMENT!
WE HAVE FUN ON TOWN HALL,BUT WE DONT GO FOR THAT KIND OF SICK COMMENT!I HAVE NEVER HERD REPUBLICANS TALK LIKE THAT !YOU BRING A BAD NAME TO TOWNHALL!GOD BLESS AMERICA AND WE PRAY FOR BARRY!

And Again
"nannette
i flagged you as offensive. i also saved this screen and will be sending it to the secret service and the fbi."

"nannette
the tallahassee, fl branch of the secret service was interested in your post. took me about 15 seconds to talk with someone on the phone who had the page in front of them. i bet they can find you"

I have taken screen shots of your postings and forwarded them to the Bedlam Lunatic Asylum. Two large men dressed in white, one carrying a strait-jacket the meds- will be at your place shortly. If I were you I would turn off you iMac, get out of your Mom's basement and RUN!


Hope
Hope is a good thing!

And Again
Nanette is deranged. Please don't feed the trolls and watch your step as you exit the room. Oh, BTW thank you for your service.

The O is
about to sign the "biggest hot check" in the history of the Republic. When it "bounces", and it surely will, it will make California's financial fiasco look like a flea on an elephant's behind.
Grubby posted the following on an earlier thread:
"I hope all you senior citizens, rewarded as you are for all your years of loyal Democrat party support, will accept your role as economic 'stimulators' by not burdening society with any unnecessary medical expenses or undue, unproductive and less than quality years while doing your socially conscious duty by contributing ALL your lifetime savings under the 100% Death Tax to the Obamanation which will surely put it to a more socially just use than you ever would have.

And have a nice death..."

This should also apply to those senior citizens who are in poor health now and to those misguided souls with elderly parents in poor health who voted for the Big O.

Read it and weep AARP!!

Prager the whiner
I've listend to Prager on the radio. dude is the biggest whiner and victim you have ever heard. That statement is not debateable.

What is debateable however is something that has been bothering me for a few years now. I know Prager is not dumb, but I can't figure out if Dennis Prager is a compulsive serial liar, or if he is brilliant enough to dupe the radical righties that listen to him.

Maybe some of you could answer this question for me:
A) Prager has a serious lying problem
B) Prager is brilliant and is purposely fooling his far right, radical extremists into believing that he really believes the hate-filled rhetoric he preaches daily.

Discuss amongst yourselves please.

Did Chloe-the-Clueness Move To NY?

Chloe/Happy Holidays must have moved to NY and become Nanette.

Let's Not Forget
In 2008 Congress voted Ay for Farm Bill, big breaks for Oil Companies, 600 and 1200 dollars stimulus checks, 1st bank bailout. The Farm Bill was the tipping point for my desdain for all politicians. No mom and pops own farms anymore, you have members of Congress getting 5000 check rebates, Hollywood gazillionaires who own wineries and Fortune 500 companies getting free cash from the Gov. This whole place smell like a rotting corpse and Canada and even France are looking pretty good nowadays. Oh Canada and Vive Le France!!!!

Heather
Heather and the alleged Marine Ray are the truly scary people in this country. You two have some serious issues. Too bad you two can't get deported. Sounds like the two of you radical extremists would fit in just perfectly in a place like Iran.


Socialist Question
Now that we a Socialist nation, does that mean we have to wear red? I hate red. Also for the person who suggested we go down to Washington for a massive protest I'm with you and we should all wear Red even thoug I hate the color.

William
Here's your answer. You offer lots of claims but no proof. In the adult world you make your claim and then offer some kind of evidence so the people you are trying to convince can weight your information agaisnt the information they have been able to gather oh their own so they can then make a decision about the veracity of your claim. You spouting off your opinion, while wonderful and encouraged, amounts to nothing more then childish foor stomping.

Heather/Ray
I feel your pain but remember this is a Democracy and the majority rules, that is 50 percent plus 1. You and I and millions of people might not like what's going on in our beloved country but we must respect the will of the majority and when the next election comes, we might not be able to get rid of Prime Minister Obama but we can get rid of the real dangerous people, like Pelosi, Reid and the Lecherous Barney Franck and of course Chucky. These bums are the real power, the President is powerless, gutless, spineless and has no testicular fortitude to deal with Pelosi, who is the real Man in the White House. These people are a bunch of "crack" dealears, giving away the crack of the day in the form of entitlements, wellfare, to a bunch of crackheads to keep them addicted so they can continue to vote them into office. When the time comes let's all go down to Washington in a massive protest and show the world we will not go gently into that goodnight.

Re: Madoff Bill # 2!!!
This bill allows anyone who was ripped off from this guy gets to beat the hell out of him for 5' with a hammer!!!

Nanette
Now, Now Dear. No need for that. If something happens to Pres. Obama, guess who will be President, you got it Biden. If something happens to Biden, guess who will be President, Nancy Pelosi. Also why emulate what third countries do when they don't like their leaders? If we don't like the President, we will vote him out of office, besides I agree with the notion that if McCain were President he would've done the same thing or worse as he doesn't have a clue about the Economy. So my dear there's no need for hate mongering, we got that from the MSM for eight years already and we are better than that.

Have you forgotten.....
I can not believe all of you.....Have you forgotten President Carter and President Clinton....giving away our lumber and shipping our JOBS out of the country....BUT maybe Geo. Bush wsa behind then telling them to do that...so keep on blaming BUSH....it has to help somehow !!!!Pray for our NOW PRESIDENT OBAMA....he needs God's hep desperately!!

Bernice

Irony
I was a Cold War era soldier. I spent almost 20 years in uniform, helping to keep socialism/communism at bay, only to have my fellow citizens vote it in.

I guess the joke is on me...

"and again" and "diamond z" cut
all the feigned disgust at her comment. Your self righteousness is far MORE disgusting. And please send this on to the "secret service" too. Hells bells, we don't know, for sure, if this fool is even a natural born citizen of the US. But one thing IS for sure, is that this fool fits the definition of what Mussolini called the "third way". "Well whats that"? Glad ya' axed, he called it the best of the other two ways, that is capitalism and communism. Of course, old Benito was referring to fascism. The methods used to bring this "bill" to fruition, certainly had him smiling ear to ear, too. It is, but the first step, toward nationalization of all private industry, in the fine keeping of all 1930s fascists. If ya' want ta' be disgusted with something be disgusted with the fascists that have ceased controlled of your country. Nanette, and what she may or may not say, should be the least of your disgusts. Ya' folla'?

NEW GUN MEASURE INTRODUCED..SCARY
Blair Holt Firearm Licensing
& Record of Sale Act
2-16-9

Very Important for you to be aware of a new bill HR 45 introduced into the House.

This is the Blair Holt Firearm Licensing & Record of Sale Act of 2009.

We just learned yesterday about this on the Peter Boyles radio program.

Even gun shop owners didn't know about this because it is flying under the radar.

To find out about this - go to any government website and type in HR 45 or Google HR 45 Blair Holt Firearm Licensing & Record of Sales Act o f 2009. You will get all the information.

Basically this would make it illegal to own a firearm - any rifle with a clip or ANY pistol unless:

·It is registered

·You are fingerprinted

·You supply a current Driver's License

·You supply your Social Security #

·You will submit to a physical & mental evaluation at any time of their choosing

·Each update - change or ownership through private or public sale must be reported and costs $25 - Failure to do so you automatically lose the right to own a firearm and are subject up to a year in jail.

·There is a ch ild provision clause on page 16 section 305 stating a child-access provision. Gun must be locked and inaccessible to any child under 18.

They would have the right to come and inspect that you are storing your gun safely away from accessibility to children and fine is punishable for up to 5 yrs. in prison..

CALL YOUR STATE REPS NOW

NEW GUN MEASURE INTRODUCED..SCARY
Blair Holt Firearm Licensing
& Record of Sale Act
2-16-9

Very Important for you to be aware of a new bill HR 45 introduced into the House.

This is the Blair Holt Firearm Licensing & Record of Sale Act of 2009.

We just learned yesterday about this on the Peter Boyles radio program.

Even gun shop owners didn't know about this because it is flying under the radar.

To find out about this - go to any government website and type in HR 45 or Google HR 45 Blair Holt Firearm Licensing & Record of Sales Act o f 2009. You will get all the information.

Basically this would make it illegal to own a firearm - any rifle with a clip or ANY pistol unless:

·It is registered

·You are fingerprinted

·You supply a current Driver's License

·You supply your Social Security #

·You will submit to a physical & mental evaluation at any time of their choosing

·Each update - change or ownership through private or public sale must be reported and costs $25 - Failure to do so you automatically lose the right to own a firearm and are subject up to a year in jail.

·There is a ch ild provision clause on page 16 section 305 stating a child-access provision. Gun must be locked and inaccessible to any child under 18.

They would have the right to come and inspect that you are storing your gun safely away from accessibility to children and fine is punishable for up to 5 yrs. in prison..

CALL YOUR STATE REPS NOW

Of wolves and lambs
Kenny writes:
" Heather/Ray
I feel your pain but remember this is a Democracy and the majority rules, that is 50 percent plus 1. You and I and millions of people might not like what's going on in our beloved country but we must respect the will of the majority"


Ignoring for the moment that ACORN might be meddling with that 50% +1, I would like to remind you that Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.

We have a Constitutionally LIMITED Republic not a Democracy.

I was taught the concept of Tyranny of the Majority with the simple example that in a Democracy a majority of the people could vote that all blue eyed blonds were bad people and had to be put away (that ment put in jail in those days).

Just because a majority wants something bad does NOT mean we have to or should respect it.



I have the cards----
I can get 250K in cash advances on my credit cards(print money).
THAT would sure "stimulate" me!
If I spend that money on non-revenue generating, personal items (pork), I'll be in a world of hurt once the bill comes due
(bankruptcy).
Now I need a bailout. When VISA says, "you owe us this money" I simply say, "charge it"!
This is cycle in which we spin..........!!!!!

and again
Provide your figures and submit your links for support and elaboration. Don't just throw up a link and say "There, that proves everything!" I'm not going to research your own argument for you.

HR 45

For those talking about gun control, please read the Heller decision, in which SCOTUS held that the 2nd Amendment allows for an individual to own firearms, without undue burdens such as those in HR 45. Also, did you know that part of this unconstitutional law also makes a gun owner forfeit his 4th Amendment rights, i.e., search and seizure constitutional protections?

A Rememberance Of Bush
If nothing else, Bush may be remembered as the President that spawned two of the world's most notorious demagogues: Madoff and Obama.

America has lost its mind!!!

Nous Somme Tout Les Socialistes,
maintenant!

Those "functioning socialist countries" in Europe spend 47+% of GDP on social programs. The USSA, will now spend 39+% in GDP.

You say, the UK and France?

Having lived in both countries, I can offer a little respective:

The UK is nearly bankrupt because of social programmes.

France has 70% tax rates, socialized medicine (which even my sister in France spurns and comes home for medical treatment), strike every other week over EVERYTHING, but get 5 weeks of paid vacations each year. The horrendous nature of this occurred 4 years ago, when the children went off to the South of France while their parents died in non-air conditioned apartments. 15K died.

Most European countries hold 76% of the credit in the Eastern bloc countries, which are on the verge of default and, perhaps, worse.

None EVER cut social programs, so they cut defense and have puny militaries. This, of course, will cause Obama to have trouble in getting them onboard for his "correct war" in Afghanistan.

Obama ordered another 17K troops to Afghanistan, so will this "correct war" become O's quagmire?

KENNY, NY: RED IS FOR COMMUNISM. CHANEL IS FOR THOSE SOCIALISTES THAT HAVE ANY EUROS. THE REST WEAR WHAT THEY PALTRY UNION SALARIES ALLOW.

Sorry, A Correction

Nous sommes les socialistes, maintenant.

Ran out of room on the title.

Welcome to a Brave New World.
We're doomed.
The Demoncrats led by Pelosi the &*^%$ and Reid the &^%%)$# led by "The One" amd all his minions have put us on the road to Socialism and the leftists and those who supported these theives should be glad. I can't believe the arrogance of Osama and his minions. But wait untill they get their first tax bill. Perhaps their tune will change.
We're ruined unless this big spending program can be stopped.

Welfare Bill
The people who voted for the dumb Democrats are going to pay now!! The sad thing about this whole mess is that the ones who didn't vote for Obama have to pay also..Obama said he was going to redistribute the wealth..Well now he is doing it by starting at the bottom with this massive spending bill..The worst is yet to come.Hang on tight, we are all in big trouble.The liars and cheats are in the White House now..

Prager's article
As usual, Dennis Prager is dead on. The way this bill was passed was indeed dishonest. I slogged through the first version of H.R.1 and never even got a chance to peek at the final version. The House and the Senate neither one got to read it.

The version I read could have been cut by 75% but I guess the Dems are about making their dreams come true no matter what the cost, and no matter what the majority of the American people want.

I guess this is just one example of the "transparency" to come.

The only consolation in this ...
... is that the mental children who voted in such large numbers for Obozo are going to be the ones to pay for the "stimulus" bill for the rest of their natural lives. Schadenfreude, however, is not much fun when it's our beloved country that's going to suffer.

Thank you, Nancy...
My take, exactly. Thanks to DP and you...

Obama is America's Choice
America opted not to insist on unambivilant answers from candidate Obama. Shame on us for being fooled even one time. This bill is an atrocity with far reaching consequences. Socialism, Western style or otherwise sounds the knell for the beginning of the end of American grandeur. A dieu the dollar. Next will be signing the bill for accsses to social security for ill-legal aliens. With the debt we carry how much more can we squander?

Obama is America's Choice
America opted not to insist on unambivilant answers from candidate Obama. Shame on us for being fooled even one time. This bill is an atrocity with far reaching consequences. Socialism, Western style or otherwise sounds the knell for the beginning of the end of American grandeur. A dieu the dollar. Next will be signing the bill for accsses to social security for ill-legal aliens. With the debt we carry how much more can we squander?
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