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Tuesday, December 09, 2008
Dennis Prager :: Townhall.com Columnist
A Response to Marc Shaiman’s Musical Against Prop 8
by Dennis Prager
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Marc Shaiman, the Tony Award-winning composer of the film and stage musical “Hairspray,” has done the country a major, if inadvertent, service. He has composed a brief musical piece against California Proposition 8 that takes only three minutes to reveal the ignorance and hate that pervades so much anti-Proposition 8 activism.

This short musical, viewed more than 2 million times on the Internet, features major Hollywood talents playing (through song) two groups on a beach -- gay men and women in beach clothes and a stuffy formally dressed church group composed of whites and blacks.

Its message begins with a religious man and woman reacting to the cheerful gay group (celebrating the Barack Obama victory) by singing these words:

“Look! Nobody’s watching

It’s time to spread some hate

And put it in the constitution

Now, how? Proposition Hate!

Great!”

Shaiman puts hateful words in the mouths of the religious proponents of the man-woman definition of marriage: “It’s time to spread some hate and put it in the constitution.” But no one put hate in the constitution. The only words Proposition 8 added to the California Constitution were: “Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.” What is hateful about that? It may be wrong, but why is it hateful?

All the hate publicly expressed in the Prop. 8 battle has come from activists like Shaiman. For the record, most gays have not joined these radical activists. It is radical gays and radical straights who have led the movement to smear the Mormon Church and to compile blacklists of those who gave money to the Proposition 8 campaign. As one of many examples of their vindictiveness, Shaiman himself is directly responsible for forcing Scott Eckern, the Mormon artistic director of the California Musical Theater, to resign because he made a personal contribution to Prop 8.

As for ignorance, the first distortion follows immediately, explaining the way religious people will succeed in putting their hatred into the Constitution.

“People, listen to our plea
They’ll teach kids about sodomy!”
And then the gay group responds:
“That wasn’t right, that’s a lie!”
And the church group counters:
“But it worked, so we don’t care!”

No one ever mentioned sodomy being taught in schools. But it is in no way a “lie” to argue that when marriage discussions arise in school classes, children will be taught about princes marrying princes and princesses marrying princesses. It has already begun.

To cite one of many examples, in Massachusetts, whose Supreme Court has legalized same-sex marriage, second graders at the Joseph Estabrook Elementary School in Lexington “used the children's book, ‘King & King’ as part of a lesson about different types of weddings Lexington Superintendent of Schools Paul Ash said Estabrook … has no legal obligation to notify parents about the book … ‘Lexington is committed to teaching children about the world they live in, and in Massachusetts same-sex marriage is legal’” (Boston Globe, April 20, 2006).

Likewise, shortly after the California Supreme Court, in a 4-3 decision, overturned an earlier California proposition defining marriage as man-woman, students in a Northern California elementary school were taken to their female teacher’s wedding to her female partner.

The next distortion Shaiman puts into the mouth of a religious man comes when Jesus Christ shows up between the two groups, and the religious man says to Jesus:

“Jesus, doesn’t the Bible say these people are an abomination?”

And Jesus responds, “Yeah.”

It is quite audacious, to put it mildly, to have Jesus tell a falsehood in a musical seen by millions. Yet, no one seems to care about Mr. Shaiman’s distorted depiction of Jesus and of the Bible.

The fact is that nowhere in the Bible are homosexuals called “an abomination.” And no one, beyond one sick fringe family that has no standing in any religious community, refers to gays as “abominations.” On the contrary, religious opponents of same-sex marriage always speak of “hating the sin, not the sinner.” They speak of love for gays; it is the activists for same-sex marriage who express hate -- for the Mormons, the Orthodox Jews, the evangelical Christians, the traditional Catholics, the African-Americans (whose lopsided vote in favor Prop 8 is widely credited with passing the Proposition) and for all the others who seek to keep marriage defined as man-woman.

This is followed by another distortion of the Bible, again from the mouth of Jesus:

“… but you know it says exact the same thing (“abomination”) about this shrimp cocktail!”

Shaiman, one suspects, has not carefully studied Leviticus. As fate would have it, I am currently teaching the Book of Leviticus at the American Jewish University, the West Coast seminary of Conservative Judaism. And Shaiman tells a half-truth. Yes, Leviticus calls shellfish “an abomination” and uses the same word for sexual acts between men. However, the text states that shellfish is an abomination “for you,” i.e., for Jews alone (Leviticus 11.12). The act of a man “lying with a man as with a woman” is labeled “an abomination” without the qualifying words “for you.” And Jews who do eat shellfish are never called or considered “abominations” any more than men who engage in homosexual acts are.

Jews alone are prohibited from killing and eating pork, shellfish, and the other non-Kosher creatures. These Kosher laws of the Torah prohibited Jews from killing and eating most species of animals thousands of years ago. The reasons for why certain species are permitted and why some are not are far too complex for a column. But Professor Jacob Milgrom, author of the three-volume Anchor Bible commentary on Leviticus, convincingly demonstrates that the Torah’s dietary laws are overwhelmingly concerned with ethics and holiness.

But none of that matters. In an age when most college graduates know little or nothing about the Bible -- which, until the baby boomer generation, was the most widely read, most widely studied, and most widely revered book in America -- they will learn all they think they need to know about the Bible and homosexuality from a three-minute musical on the Internet.

Hatred based on ignorance is known as bigotry. Making the bigotry of much of the anti-Proposition 8 activism apparent is Marc Shaiman’s significant, if inadvertent, contribution.

Why can’t Shaiman and his fellow activists acknowledge that there are good people on both sides of this issue? Those of us who supported Proposition 8 readily acknowledge that many good people differ with us. Neither position is inherently hateful, but this little musical is.

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About The Author
Dennis Prager is a radio show host, contributing columnist for Townhall.com, and author of 4 books including Happiness Is a Serious Problem: A Human Nature Repair Manual.
 
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Wow, dummy
'Got it.'

Misspelling a two-letter word has got to be my record!

By the bye, you wrote:
"The bulk of your arguments are based on phony pronouncements of the "Family" institute"

Yet failed to respond to my post #302 in which I showed that the great majority of the sources quoted in the links were NOT FRI. You failed to respond because dismissing those studies as all FRI is the only thing you have. You cling to your strawman out of hopelessness.

To George
In other words, there are NO statistics showing homosexual orientation to be healthy. I challenged you to bring facts and you brought more empty rhetoric.

Got is. Dismissed.

Second to George, du
Here, I'll make it easy on you.

Find a study (from a reputable source, preferably) that shows ONE nation in which the physical and emotional health of homosexuals is effectively the same as that for heteros. Surely levels of 'homophobia' vary widely between nations; and according to your mantra, in areas of low 'homophobia', gays would be just as healthy as heteros.

So, show me nations that are reasonably gay-affirming, and show me the significantly better health of homosexuals in those nations.

For example, the Netherlands are reputed (even by some gays) to be 'extremely tolerant':

http://www.ziptogaytravel.com/destinations/des_netherlands. php

So the emotional and physical health of homosexuals residing in the Netherlands should be comparable to that of the general population there, right? Look into that and let me know what you find.

Or find any other area to use as an example. This should be easy, since the relative unhealthiness of homosexuals supposedly depends primarily on the relative level of homophobia.

And please don't come back with more dogma and doctrine. You've made assertions; back them with facts.




To George, du
By the way, just how many of the studies to which I posted are from FRI? Are you reducing the issue to a strawman?

http://www.youth-suicide.com doesn't quote from FRI (3 links). They quoted from a U of Calgary study, a U of Essex study, a study published in the 2004 British Journal of Psychiatry, a survey by the London Gay Teenage Group, and several more. Not FRI.

The modern-psychiatry.com link quoted a study by the American Journal of Public Health. Not FRI, is it?

The ajph.org link cited studies and data from U.S. Dep Health & Human Svcs, a book from Columbia U Press, American Journal Community Psych, Am J OrthoPsychiatry, Am J Public Health, as well as books from U of Chicago Press, American Physchiatry Press, etc. Any FRI?

Perhaps the Archives of General Psychiatry are a shill for FRI?

The opinion piece from Malasiakini.com quotes a LOT of people. There are a couple of names from NARTH, but what of Dean Hamer, Simon LeVay, David Finkelhor?

Even the web.utk.edu document quotes far more studies than just the one by Cameron -- to include Am Journal Public Health, Journal of Gay and Lesbian Social Services, Kinsey Institute, etc.

Yet you pretend that "it's all that darn FRI".

Nice try.






To George
"So, my friend, we have statistics directly from an institute, whose mission in life is not just discrimination against gay people, but complete societal rejection of homosexuality."

Everybody has an agenda. Including same-sex marriage activists.

"What you have, in the very articles you have provided, is a minute criticism of genuine satistics, from US, Norwegian Swedish etc sources, where the Institute CRITICIZES, REJECTS, and DENIGRATES these statistics, and offers instead an incomprehensible jumble of corrections, assumptions, "empirical conclusions", results based on "reversal" of statistical conclusions"

Terrific! Finally somebody who looked at the data like I've been asking! Now, please give specifics example of FRI criticizing, rejecting, denigrating and reversing the statistics. You said it, now show it so that we can discuss actual facts, rather than your assertion.

"I tried not to be angry with you"

Don't be angry. Lay out the facts of your findings and let's discuss them.

"the most biased, most blatant and most obviously rigged set of useless garbage"

Excellent; show me how the data was rigged.
I'll be back to check.

To du
"Your information IS wrongly quoting a bit from a few legitimate agencies, but most often they leave out important COMPARATIVE information that shows that all the pathologies you keep bringing up are NON EXCLUSIVE, so therefore inappropriate to use FOR DISCRIMINATION."

So, disprove the statistics or indicate an alternative conclusion. Show me the comparative data. It should not be difficult, since so many researchers have allegedly spoken up on the matter. In fact, point me to sources in which these researchers complained.

"Which, is exactly the purpose that FRI want so use their information."

And gay activists have an agenda of their own. Which is one reason I'd like to see more than your allegations. I posted links, lets see yours.

"What's important is you keep asserting it also as some kind of rationalization for discrimination and FURTHER alienation of gay people."

Yes, we certainly should suppress scientific fact in pursuit of ideological purposes, right? In this line of argument, you are in the same boat as the Catholic Church who wanted scientific facts suppressed lest they call religious doctrine into question. Is not the truth ALWAYS desirable?

"That is the dangerous thing, that you aren't concerned with being skeptical about THEIR motives"

By your own standards, we should be equally skeptical of any data that comes from any sort of activist -- including you.

The bottom line is still this: you haven't offered a single shred of evidence that rebuts a single conclusion from any of the studies that I have referenced. You are still hollow. Nice ideology, but so far you can't find facts to back your assertions.

If the homosexual orientation -- and the practices that go with it -- is healthy as you say, there will be a flood of data to prove it. Show me the data.

con't
Your studies are not to be trusted for the reasons I stated. Gay people are a much maligned and misunderstood minority. And distinctly and uniquely UNIVERSAL minority.
Culture and family structure won't alter the likelihood of homosexuality occuring in one or more children in ANY given family or situation.

The difference is in how WE respond to it that allows success or failure of that gay person.

And as a minority that has had VERY little time and universal opportunity to mainstream among the majority, there is a marked agenda that the status quo be maintained. Disregarding the alienation that is real and compromises gay youth in formative years, disregards a vital part of the discussion.

As you should know myths have surrounded women, blacks and Jews and gay people to KEEP THEM specifically from achieving cohesion and parity with those used to having control and power within of all the structures we talk about.
Including marriage and family.

You dismiss ALL the necessary context in the discussion and insist, as others before, that it's gay peope who are weak somehow, so therefore deserving of their alienation.

Well, if the alienation continues, how will we EVER know otherwise?
How will those stats or trends change for the BETTER?

Who is more afraid that they will and will therefore lose the power they have over gay lives instead of giving gay people the power over their OWN lives?

Why IS there an objection that gay people have that freedom?
Why are people told that such freedom represents chaos for everyone else?

You want proof that gay people can function on the same or similar par with you?
Then interfering with EVERY aspect of them doing so will have to stop, won't it?

con't
Years ago in LA, after the tenth black man had died from a chokehold procedure during an arrest, our then police chief Darryl Gates actually said that perhaps it was some weakness in the black person that made them more susceptible to chokehold fatalities, rather than saying that the use of chokeholds more on black suspects was the reason.

For centuries, the white majority has raised all kinds of false premises that some weakness in black people made them fair game for whatever discipline, violence, discrimination that could be thought of. Jews suffered similar ad hoc defamation in Europe and look how that turned out.

I see this same pattern in your statistics and how you use them. Your assert a weakness in gay people that makes them more susceptible to pathology so therefore the treatment they get is warranted.
Considering the legacy of thinking like that, what does it say about you that you embrace so eagerly and without ANY skepticism, such similar tactics used on VULNERABLE minorities.

And I mean vulnerable to defamation and all it's attendant attacks, direct and indirect.

Christianity will survive this fluff of a musical.
But the marriages that were conducted in CA didn't survive that legal freedom for six months and were under attack from the beginning.

Anyone can take offense at this show. But the greater offense was involutarily divorcing thousands of couples and putting them and their children in serious legal chaos.

tali2
There were at least nine researchers cited by FRI, FOTF and FRC who complained to those orgs and their spokesmen for distorting their research to accomodate their prejudices.

All of them were ignored. Especially after an article that James Dobson did so in TIME magazine, three of the doctors he wrongly quoted contacted him directly and he outright disrespected them for doing so.

Your information IS wrongly quoting a bit from a few legitimate agencies, but most often they leave out important COMPARATIVE information that shows that all the pathologies you keep bringing up are NON EXCLUSIVE, so therefore inappropriate to use FOR DISCRIMINATION.

Which, is exactly the purpose that FRI want so use their information.

What's important is you keep asserting it also as some kind of rationalization for discrimination and FURTHER alienation of gay people.

That is the dangerous thing, that you aren't concerned with being skeptical about THEIR motives.

If gay people don't want to lose their families, children, partners, jobs, lives and ability to function as their ability warrants, THAT is far more legitimate a reason than you denying they should be able to because of the stats you have.

Dear Rudolf
A question RE: "Fortunately, in the Netherlands no one is offended by these things anymore. Americans, especially the lunatics here at TH, have long way to go!" Please explain cogently (as opposed to merely parroting the left's line) why do you consider the fact that no one in the Netherlands in offended by blatant blasphemy fortunate? Is the thought that the secret to human happiness might just consist of sexual self-control that repellent to you and your lefty buddies? Seriously. I await your reply.

The Only Thing ...
...that needs to be said about Marc Shaiman's "musical" is that it is a clear example of ideological art. As the world learned from the days of the "socialist realism" school of "art," to call such efforts even trivial mediocrities would be kind. May Mr. Shaiman and his "art" fade into a well-deserved obscurity, and quickly.

To du
"I have studied the thread and I thought that tali2 would be intelligent and experienced enough to have a healthy skepticism about the statistics he threw out."

I thought that you and others on this thread would be intelligent and open-minded enough to at least look into the studies and identify WHY they are not to be trusted (if in fact they are not) rather than simply dismiss them because they're not in line with how you 'feel'. But apparently I was wrong.

To Fabius Cunctator
I've heard a number of 'internet progressives' express resentment at the system of federal chaplains in the military. Though they themselves have never gone into harm's way, they hate others having spiritual support provided by the government.

Fortunately, the attitude still seems to only exist among the *serious* fringe element. For now.

To George
"It says: "FAMILY RESEARCH INSTITUTE". Do we need to tell you about Family Research Institute, boys and girls?"

First, I posted links to many studies. They weren't all by Family Research Institue. Second, even if a given study WAS by Family Research Insititute, that does not prove the the statistics are wrong. Can you argue the methodology? No, you can't.

Indeed, I often use stats from the Guttmacher Insititute in my arguments against convenience abortions, even though that Institute has a history of affiliation with Planned Parenthood.

Once again, your argument is hollow.

George in NY
The Susuznay family has my prayers and utmost love and respect in my heart for them. I share their pain and sorrow.
I know they are in your heart too. The surviving brother of the attack, Romel, found it in his heart, in his way to speak also for the gay community and defend love between people who DO love.

That is the spirit of giving, of Xmas of peace between men.
That men be tender, respect tenderness between men AS love. As what it IS meant to be.
We are in the season of celebration and giving. That we give warmth through hard winter and be open to give what others do not.

I share the pain of Romel's family because it's all too common for people showing love for each other on a cold street, will be met with violence and hate.
Gay men and women are at special risk for this, but anyone can be who shares the gestures of love towards someone.

Think again Fabious, anderson, tali2...everyone.
You flintiness at those of us who understand the generosity that the smallest of kindness can bear.
Respect for the spirit of love, whether between a man and woman, or two men and two women.
Those of us with love in us, to give and receive recognize it as such.

Romel did, and God...I hope is with him and his grieving family.
And so with us all for the sake of love and how we share it.

Prager's first paragraph
For him to say that this musical does a disservice and more damage to the credibility of the anti Prop. 8 crowd, looks like spinning to blame gay people all over again for just doing ANYTHING.
This show was AFTER the vote. Not before.

Considering the damage done to ACTUAL gay couples, their legal licensing, wills or other forms of paperwork that protected their family situations, when this show wasn't even thought of...is lower than insensitive.

So exactly WHAT would have changed anyone's mind about maintaining legal marriage?
Does he have some advice on how to counter thousands of years of animus against gay people?

Jews are still being blown up and shot all over the world.
I suppose he'd know how to make someone accept who you are regardless of how you try to have peaceful relationships with them and the contributions you make.

And gay people have been around longer than Jews AND the Arabs and Muslims who'd want to kill us all.

So, what about the days after the musical hadn't even come out, and what about the opposing commercials before the vote...eh Dennis?


btw: virtually the ONLY Palestinians and Arabs not on board for terrorizing Jews or not wanting living among them peacefully, have been gay members of those cultures.
If he'd bothered to be around the advocates I'm with all the time, he'd know that.



Karen
please post it again, I might have deleted the other page without seeing your post. Sorry I missed it.

I'd be glad to touch base on that.
And thanks.

tut tut
No anderson, I'm an expert on the corrosiveness of defamation and prejudice.
Experience with it, doncha know.

I'm not expert on homosexuality, but I listen to those who are, people like actual homosexuals.
All of which you don't know or experience and couldn't handle. For sure.
You can't handle gay people finding their own happiness and caring to secure in the best and most legal way.
Have you a clue what that says about you?

I compare notes and it's not hard to conclude that there is little to distinguish a gay person from heterosexuals and what BOTH want respectively and that discrimination and distrust is unnecessary, and dangerous and always has been.

Nothing good has come of it, and rationalizing the practice is extremely impractical at best.

And you layer the libel against me by making claims of things that didn't occur or that I didn't do.

For what USE, anderson?
Well, why?
Why does it matter so much to you?
Who are you trying to IMPRESS?

Who CARES anderson?

You trying to be all intimidating and incite the TH mob?
Your quality of life all ruined for the rest of your days because gay folks don't care how YOU feel sometimes?
Because you haven't figured out that us suspect minorities ALWAYS know how you feel. We can't GET AWAY from it.

We know MORE about you, than the other way around.
Always do, have no choice not to.

You will eventually have to know things that weren't what you believed.
Welcome to the club you've avoided all your life.
Relax, brother. I've been in it for years.
And you might find, if you had the patience and the spine, that it's not what you hoped and better than you dreamed.



as if
anderson, you don't know me and you know little about me. You are committing libel here.

What sacrifices are you so afraid of that gay people might find happiness in their lives?

Your sad tale of your cousins,is common, but for a very different reason you won't admit. I didn't hear that you did anything for them before or after the fact. Did you think about what the rest of your family did to drive them away to find some kind of commune of acceptance elsewhere and therefore into a risky situation NO ONE knew would do what it did?

Still, the point still stands: who here have actually made any sacrifices or cared to walk in the shoes of someone gay for two seconds, just to be more certain of their conclusions? Not the assumptions?

Who here WOULD do it, just to say they tried to consider the other side FULLY?
I know already few think the other side is worth considering. Well, so easy when you haven't REALLY had to be in fear of losing YOUR life, family, marriage, career or your own children or option to raise them at all.

I was raised being taught everything that you believe as well. Few people are.
The difference between you and me anderson is I'm not a lazy coward hiding behind the convenience of my color, gender, religion or orientation.


Being a black part Native american woman educated in other than Christian religious teaching, I can't help feeling empathy. Which you actively ridicule.
And as if YOU'RE more expert on how discrimination feels than I do.

I LEARN from the other side, giving respect to THEIR experience, not the abstraction of my own from MY point of view as you do.

It takes no courage to maintain an order which has already kept a distinct minority isolated that otherwise has the will and capability of doing as much good as anyone else, just not as much opportunity and for as long.


A Great Column on the Whole
However some comments are in order:

First, the portion that reads "What is hateful about that? It may be wrong, but why is it hateful?" should really read what is hateful about that?, period. The phrase by Prager that "it may be wrong" in reference to the Prop 8 amendment could cause someone to question his conservative credentials.

Second, RE:" For the record, most gays have not joined these radical activists. It is radical gays and radical straights who have led the movement to ... compile blacklists of those who gave money to the Proposition 8 campaign:" I think the left needs a dose of its own medicine, to wit, let us conservatives begin compiling a blacklist of those who contributed to the Obama campaign. I'll just bet that such a list would make some pretty darn interesting reading.

The homosexual apologists- you du.
Du- and her/his du-du.

Remember, this was a person( du) who gloated about terrorizing the owner of the Mexican food restaurant in LA that donated to proposition 8 with her/his homosexual militant pals on another thread.

Du-du makes a lot of claims. None are true. Give him/her enough posting rope and watch how the story changes.

Here is what du-du believes in.

http://planetransgender.blogspot.com/2008/11bash-back-radic al-qu**r-agenda.html

To view the link substitute ee for the word before agenda.

A quote: Nothing promotes tolerance like terrorism.

du claims to be a heterosexual,yet it demeans and villifies anyone who holds a different opinion, offers condescending labels to posters such as "self proclaimed expert"

when in fact du knows nothing about anything to do with homosexuality. du is a SHILL, and an APOLOGIST, nothing more.

du is the Tokyo Rose of the homosexual militant movement.

George, on Fabius
See you on the next one, and guess what?

Fabius is right.

If you paid for your education with a credit card, now is the time to ask for your money back.

By the way, articles that you do not agree with are not garbage.

Twit.

TO DU IN CA
Du, Posted something to you about yr work on other page. Please look it up. You need to write about what you do...it's fascinating to me...and would be to many others, I'm sure.

con't
So it's acts of political discrimination that disrupts a gay couples happiness in marriage that does a disservice to trust in the Constitution.
It's violence like this on our streets that puts affectionate men or women in danger that does a disservice to showing care for another human being.

And it's TH that does a disservice to priorities when it complains about a ribald musical like this, instead of the terrible risks to any citizen because of the very fear and distrust of gay people TH foments.

This musical didn't do nearly any damage that such violence that gay people know well, and can't avoid can do in our entire country.

oh STFU!!!
Just a few days ago, two brothers from Ecuador, one a resident of Brooklyn, the other visiting...were walking arm in arm together on the way home from a restaurant.

They were set upon by a carload of thugs, calling them fa**ots who broke a bottle over the head of one of the brothers and cut him badly.
He is now brain dead.

Anti gay sentiment KILLS. Period.
In a statement to the press, the surviving brother said "People should love who they love, it doesn't matter who they love. This is a free place. We come here for that."
How unutterably sad, that even in his pain, he had the grace to speak up for the people he was mistaken for.

And not a ONE of you who agrees with the anti gay sentiment would NEVER be so brave.
This is not an isolated incident.
It never is.

And it shouldn't take extremes of violence to get your attention on it's causes and correlations.
You lose cred as compassionate anything, if even hearing out how such violence occurs with the only provocation being perception of homosexuality.

That's all it took.
Had either of these men or both been actually gay, your answer would have been admonishment for showing it.
If being gay is defined by affection, love...acceptance of tenderness between men, I say YES!!

Anytime, everywhere...that's exactly what the world needs.
Instead of the horrible homophobia that manifests in the violent death of a visitor to our shores.

the exhaustion
Of having to refute such an intense calculation of distortion on the motives and capablities of gay people is endless.
Tali2 didn't understand why I said he might as well believe that blacks have small craniums and extra large sex organs.
Such stereotypes were extended to say that black men were so aggressive sexually, they could not be trusted around white females.

And you should know the results of such information.
Commercials for Prop 8 featured children as the targets of gay people lusting to indoctrinate them.
Children being the fear mongering prop, where white women were for blacks.

And a heavy price was paid for tapping the EMOTIONS of an ignorant populace. Thousands of gay couples were thrown into a legal morass, perhaps irreversibly.
And did the state of marriage and families for heterosexuals see any affect?
No. Have the EVER, even in places where marriage equality has been longer?
Not in ways to justify what happened in CA.

No, the fear campaign is long and deeply entrenched.
I don't use statistics because I KNOW gay people MUCH better apparently than the majority. I have no need to refute THEM, because it is THEY who carry the truth.
Not the heterosexuals committed to maintaining the status quo.

Which, has done absolutely NO good to or for anyone.

Has any asked what families would still be whole, what young person would still be alive and with them, but for families excluding their own gay children out of the fear tactics so often put in play from churches and schools?
There has been more suffering from not accepting homosexuality for what it is.

Acceptance needs more time to and area to show you how wrong you have been.
But you seem to fear being proven wrong as well.

And there is no excuse for that.

con't
Instruction on how such information was constructed, distorted to accomodate stereotype.

There is belief here, I think is that homosexuality is used to get high with, like a drug...so therefore must have the same organic affect to make a person who should otherwise be heterosexual, not be able to function like one.

I can't believe otherwise intelligent people would fall for such a stupid conception.

But we're entering hard times, and that motivates people to turn on one another. Ask a concentration or internment camp survivor, or native american on a reservation.

Gay people have been an easy target, and to see what manner of rationalization for their treatment, then disbelieving they even had any, is a disturbing trend in TH.

You can dismiss me all you want as emotionally invested. Well, being a black, part native american woman, can't help myself.

After all....how would YOU know anything about the corrosiveness of prejudice over a lifetime, and exhaustion from explaining yourself to idiots?

tali2 and others
I have studied the thread and I thought that tali2 would be intelligent and experienced enough to have a healthy skepticism about the statistics he threw out.
In historical context, in our own country, blacks, women, Jews have had to live down centuries of defamation. They had to prove their worth to society over and over again.

Jews are a people constantly under seige and targeted for violence. Homosexuals are universal and indigenous to all human life. In some cultures, accepted as mystical in the male/female dynamic.

The attribute of whatever minority was in the crosshairs, made it easier to create whole myths to make them look weak, incapable of integrating or functioning like whites/men/Christians/heterosexuals..take your pick.

And you buy the statistical information too eagerly, too easily without framing WHY it's out there in a healthy context.
Rationalizing the ill treatment to continue without conceding that the ill treatment has an affect.

Those are all the symptoms of a committed supremacist, not a person as eager to learn more BEYOND convenient statistics from narrow sources and test samples.

tali2 who COULD follow this?
that's why I don't get it, and neither would anyone else with a wealth of FAR more information and experience than you have.
Which is why your statistics are irrelevant to the subject of the affirming properties of marriage itself.

To follow your logic to it's conclusion is to BELIEVE that homosexuality is such a profound issue that keeps gay individuals from being loving, intelligent enough, honest or healthy enough for the institution, then it's fair to write them off as the most depressed and suicidal, with an expiration date.

As you pointed out yourself, there is a part of the black population with a higher rate of pathology, even intraracial violent crime.
But to suggest that black people are immune to the benefits of marriage, family structure and nurturing with respect to their identity BECAUSE of pathology, is rationalizing bad faith.

Supporting a gay person in affirming structures is GOOD for everyone.
Your stats don't refute THAT, nor indicate how doing so has ever been wrong.


so strange
tali2,
You are equating ORGANIC substances, that are addictive and damage cell tissue with sexual orientation.

You're trying to tell us, that homosexuality which has no genetic OR organic component, STILL has risk factors as substances do.

So WITHOUT the essential physiological component, you STILL say that homosexuality is risky and life threatening?!

Even when sexual activity isn't in evidence, gay people are still treated to isolation and discrimination.

Even people with say...lupus (as I have), or the gene for Huntingtons are not banned from marrying or even having children.
Even with generational risks to substance addiction, that demographic isn't banned from marrying.

And you're judging the prevalence of whatever pathologies in societies you think are more affirming. Well for how long, compared to NOT affirming?
You think that only a few decades will erase CENTURIES of damage from the demographic?

So if you don't agree on a genetic component, but agree that homosexuality causes inherent physiological inferiority, or susceptibility to pathology...then you contradict the claims by the most ardent of anti gay people.

You repeat chapter and verse what pathology and why you THINK they are more prevalent and disagree on why.

But regardless of pathology in ANY given group you describe, smokers or not.
Addicts or not.
No one is banned because of the prevalence of problems in their group. Not even divorce.

Unless you're trying to say too, that marriage has ill effects on gay people worse than straight people as well.



Fabius:
"The "harm" or lack of "harm" of one practice or its effect on another does not justify the acceptance of that practice.
Examples: 1) Polygamy is outlawed as an unacceptable practice because Society has determined that it is not consistent with the morals and stability of a Christian civilization."

A lack of harm DOES justify acceptance if people want to do it. That's called "freedom." There are some types of music I don't like, but if other people like them, I have to accect that some people will listen to them.

While Christianity is undeniably a major influence in the culture of America, we are NOT technically a "Christian" nation or civilization. NO WHERE in the Constitution does is mention the Bible as a basis for our laws.

As for polygamy, existing body of marraige law presupposes two people. While it may be assumed this means two people of the opposite sex, it applies well to same sex couples as well. But when you consider applying divorce/division of property/custody issues to plural marraiges, you can think of many situations that are not addressed in the current body of marraige law. You can't make polygamy legal unless you propose a set of rules that satifactorly address situations that can and will arise.

"Certain drugs are outlawed because they destroy the health and the emotional stability of an individual."

And that is a logical justification for the restrictions on certain drugs. What logical justification can you provide for continuing the ban on same sex marraige?

To Fabius Cunctator
I understand one thing: there are no numbers, statistics, or logical arguments based on facts, to be found anywhere in her posts. All she has is a feel-good dogma that she constantly restates in different ways and with different flawed analogies and assertions.

In other words, what she types is immaterial, for her arguments are hollow. She appears unable to recognize this. I wonder if she ever was taught any logical problem-solving abilities whatsoever?

To du
It's hard for me to refrain from responding to silliness.

You wrote:
"Saying that it's the homosexuality that kills, and not homophobia, while reiterating pathologies that ALSO plague heterosexuals or that heterosexuals have no immunity from, is what makes no sense and is dangerously disingenuous."

Everybody is liable to develop lung cancer. Yet smoking greatly increases the risk of lung cancer. Non-smokers are not immune, but this does not negate the fact that smokers are far more at risk. Telling smokers that everything is fine and that their habit is healthy is deceitful.

Everybody is liable to develop emotional and physical pathologies. Yet homosexuality greatly increases the risk. Heteros are not immune, but this does not negate the fact that homosexuals are far more at risk. Telling homosexuals that their ORIENTATION is fine and that their lifestyle is healthy is deceitful.

Get it, yet?

As for your claim that 'homophobia kills', you still refuse to comprehend the significance of identical rates of suicide, emotional pathologies, and greatly reduced life expectancies, which gays experience in multiple dissimilar nations.
The Netherlands are reputedly FAR more 'affirming' of the homosexual ORIENTATION than is the U.S. -- yet that has no effect on the prevalence of emotional pathologies among gays. There are many more examples -- France, Australia, Norway, Denmark, Canada, France, Britain. Therefore it CANNOT be the level of homophobia that causes the pathologies. The only consistent factor among all those cases is that of the homosexual ORIENTATION of the afflicted population. Therefore, whether you wish to admit it or not, no matter how dogmatic you are with your simple counterfactual denials, the cause is the homosexual ORIENTATION. If you refuse to understand this fact, then you are wilfully blind. Which is pretty much what we have come to expect.

So be it. Good day.

con't: it runs so deep
Saying that it's the homosexuality that kills, and not homophobia, while reiterating pathologies that ALSO plague heterosexuals or that heterosexuals have no immunity from, is what makes no sense and is dangerously disingenuous.

And at the same time, continuing to support laws or social constructs that isolate gay people exclusively from the very support systems that WOULD affirm happiness and health.

These are contradictions in terms. So is asserting that exclusion from a loving companion that shares the same attribute is a healthier course, as if failure of this course isn't proven and shown to have as disastrous results as substance addiction.

You don't support what goals that are noble and supportive and the same as that of heterosexuals, but you DO support the goals of heterosexuals to maintain an unworkable and essentially damaging double standard that no one could accomplish, only against gay people.

Right.
The contradictions are insanity inducing. And run SO deep, as to be insurmountable.
This isn't logic that has results worth maintaining, but it's an end unto itself.

To make things so impossible for gay people to surmount, only to make your beliefs, opinions and lack of respect for the other's needs, slightly plausible to other heterosexuals.
But devastating to gay people.
It doesn't take much to make that work.
Supremacists use that tool, not people whose goals are shared moral values, but shared supremacy values.

Shared moral values are about inclusion to what helps most people, not how you can rationalize keeping them away from them.

Considering you don't know the definition of homosexuality, of course what you think should be done would be the wrong approach. You'd to have the right diagnosis, to have the right application.
In this case, you have neither.

Final post to George, du
I've spent as much time here as I can. I will finish by pointing out a curious fact.

Neither of you has even attempted to counter the studies I've referenced, nor presented any figures of your own. You have not tried to draw different logical conclusions out of the data presented. All you have offered in 'rebuttal' are empty platitudes, groundless claims, and baseless denials. That is the classic symptom of an incorrect position -- it cannot be supported by statistics.

In fact, you two are operating exclusively by faith -- you *believe* that the homosexual ORIENTATION is harmless, therefore you scornfully declare it as proven and obvious that the homosexual ORIENTATION *is* harmless.

Your position is hollow, but it is 'doctrinally correct' among progressives. Therefore you will never really be pressured into opening your eyes and truly examining the facts. You will go away from here still convinced that the hateful people are those who refused to chant the mantra with you.

Be wilfully blind all you wish. Who cares if real people are hurting? Only the ideological victory is important.

To du
"I know EXACTLY what sexual abuse does to ALL children. A percentage of them will be gay regardless. A percentage of them will be suffer terrible esteem problems and become promiscuous or end up with partners who abuse them as adults."

Yes, a percentage will be gay regardless. But why do homosexuals report having experienced SO much higher a rate of childhood sexual abuse? By far the most likely reason is that experiencing sexual abuse as a child (especially same-sex abuse) increases the likelihood of the person eventually self-identifying as gay. You can ignore the facts all you want, but they won't go away. Either disprove the figures or come up with a more plausible explanation.

"Pointing to a narrow statistical result that ONLY pertains to homosexuality, will look like only homosexuals affect the population or themselves this way."

Doesn't pertain only to homosexuals. Childhood abuse (sexual and otherwise) also results in increased risk of substance abuse, alcoholism, etc. Google it.

To du
"Promiscuity, substance problems are ALSO problems among heterosexuals, but no one says that being heterosexual causes them...well, WHY?"

Promiscuity is a red herring, and I will tell you why.

If promiscuity is the primary cause of elevated pathology among gays, then gays must be roughly 3-4x more promiscuous than heteros (since that is the pathological differential).

But if gays are more promiscuous, why? It certainly isn't because they aren't allowed same-sex marriage (since promiscuity in hetero marriages is disturbingly high). It would have to be something inherent with the homosexual ORIENTATION. And we're right back to the same idea -- that the homosexual ORIENTATION has harmful effects inherent to it.

In point of fact, however, neither heterosexuality nor homosexuality is the *cause* of high promiscuity. Societal factors are at work, there.

To George
Nice try, but you need to go back and read my posts. Even in societies with extremely low rates of religious observance, the rates are STILL greatly inflated.

For instance, only 10% of France attends church, and fewer than 25% have even read the bible. Yet they are so very religious that they are intolerant of homosexuals?

In Norway, as posted above, average gay lifespan is over 20 years less than the hetero average, yet church attendance in Norway is only 5%. The same is true of Denmark, where the lifespan of homosexuals is equally abyssmal, yet the church attendance rate is also only 5%. Australia has U.S.-style suicide rates among gays, yet only 16% church attendance compared to 44% in the U.S.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/rel_chu_att-religion-chur ch-attendance

The data simply makes utter nonsense of your rebuttal. Go back, check out the facts, and open your mind to *thought* instead of ideological knee-jerk responses.

To du pt 2
By the bye, calling it 'orientation' makes no difference. If an orientation is harmful, then the individual needs to make efforts to re-orient, to the extent of his or her ability. But pretending that the orientation does not have harmful effects is unhelpful and just plain deceitful.

And on that note, if orientation is unchangeable, why is it that 46% of homosexual men reported being molested as a child, a vastly greater percentage than among hetero men? The obvious reason is that childhood molestation (especially same-sex molestation, the most common kind inflicted on boys) increases the likelihood of a man eventually identifying himself as gay. If orientation can be influenced by childhood sexual abuse, then it is CHANGEABLE, regardless of your assertions to the contrary.

To du pt 1
"It's extremely irresponsible to equate homosexuality with a substance problem, when it's the SUSTANCE that causes the result."

NOW you're starting to understand!

I have posted links showing that the rates of suicide, emotional pathology, and reduced lifespan are consistently elevated in the U.S., France, Canada, Britain, Norway, Australia, the Netherlands, and Denmark. Go back through my previous posts for the links.

If these pathologies were primarily the result of bigotry, then the rates should vary greatly between nations, as it is inevitable that the attitude toward homosexuality differs greatly between, say, the U.S. and the Netherlands. Yet the rates are *consistently* high. The only consistent factor is the ORIENTATION of the individuals involved. Therefore, there must be something in the homosexual ORIENTATION that causes the problems. This is exactly the case with substance abuse.

You can ignore the findings, you can castigate the person who quotes them to you, you can 'take it on faith' that the numbers must be nonsense or mean something else. But when you do, you are placing ideology above the welfare of people. THAT is being hateful toward homosexuals.


con't
You say "the most hateful and lazy thing we can to is tell gay people "you're fine..."

No, the most hateful and cowardly thing that's been done, has been just the opposite.

Promiscuity, substance problems are ALSO problems among heterosexuals, but no one says that being heterosexual causes them...well, WHY?

I know EXACTLY what sexual abuse does to ALL children. A percentage of them will be gay regardless. A percentage of them will be suffer terrible esteem problems and become promiscuous or end up with partners who abuse them as adults.

Pointing to a narrow statistical result that ONLY pertains to homosexuality, will look like only homosexuals affect the population or themselves this way.

It's an oft repeated trick to deflect focus and you fall for it, that's all.
And you WANT to, and badly.

So let's talk about what IS relevant.



The way you reiterate this is mostly a way of rationalizing continuing the status quo, not a way to meet halfway at the point of finally supporting gay people towards affirming structure and hope of it.
Hope, makes all kinds of high risk populations turn their lives away from high risk behaviors, like promiscuity and substance abuse.
If heterosexuals respond to hope,

just WHAT excuse to you have assuming gay people won't either?
The way you're talking, you make it seem as if it's impossible for gay people to respond well to making themselves happier by having the hope of marrying and raising children who need love and being included in the structure of a loving, accepting family?

Why does pretending to be heterosexual carry more influence on that for you, despite the fact that high risk heterosexual's orientation isn't blamed for the same risks?

This is what makes your argument worthless that being heterosexual is the hope, rather than being included in what lifts all spirits being the right course.






tali2

It's extremely irresponsible to equate homosexuality with a substance problem, when it's the SUSTANCE that causes the result.
If you don't understand what sexual orientation is, and say, promiscuity...nor that a person who is heterosexual ALSO has those issues, then you're not tracking causation and correlation to make a conclusion on PREVENTION.

We can prevent and reduce promiscuity, by encouraging monogamy and commitment in gay people within marriage (who by and large don't get that encouragement as young people.)
What you're also not mentioning is how hope enables and encourages young people to arrange their lives more positively around it.

Without the hope of marrying, or being accepted within that structure, young people (whether gay or not) will then engage in riskier behavior.
Damage to the self esteem also does this.

Homosexuality, in and of itself isn't dangerous. It's an orientation.

And each and every time you use the the word 'lifestyle' to describe it, you're already showing the most profound and dangerous ignorance.

This has been a terrible mistake to keep ascribing homosexuality that way. It's caused damage to the formative psyche of young gay people and DOESN'T work.

That's like applying leeches to treat diabetes.

An ARCHAIC wrongheaded approach has had bad results, and the proof of it, are the pathologies at the levels they because ONLY gay people are subject more often TO that wrong headed approach.

As acceptance and understanding of what homosexuality is makes a slow, but purposeful way, as it should...the pathology is lessened and happier gay people are at higher levels in the population.

Your information is extremely stale and narrow.
You need to check it again and from the source this most pertains to.

To du
"Do we help, or constantly remind our gay neighbors about how many problems they have"

To tell you the truth, I would prefer to accept everybody's lifestyle as 'okay'. But when there is so much evidence that gays suffer greatly elevated rates of emotional problems and suicide, and when evidence of identical rates from different cultures proves that bigotry cannot be the cause, then we have three possible responses.

1) We can honestly fail to comprehend the data.
2) We can ignore or deny the data, proposing a simplistic, feel-good justification (this is what you are doing).
3) can be compassionate enough to make homosexuals aware of the harm their lifestyle causes, and encourage them to make whatever changes they are able to make.

The absolute most hateful and lazy thing that we could do is to falsely tell homosexuals "You are fine, keep it up, the fault belongs to others".

Picture a man who is drinking himself to death. Which is his true friend: the one who decides to avoid confrontation and say "Everything's okay, keep it up", or the one who says "What you're doing is harming you; you need to change"?

Incidentally, alcoholism reduces the lifespan an average of ten to twelve yuears, which gives a male American alcoholic an average lifespan of roughly 65 years.

http://www.umm.edu/patiented/articles/how_serious_alcoholis m_000056_4.htm

The lifespan of homosexuals in the U.S. averages in the mid-40's. In Denmark and Norway, the low-50's (whether partnered or not)

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007_docs/CameronHomosexual Footprint.pdf


To Anderson
"Homosexuality is a behavior. That is why homosexuals want it taught in schools as legitimate, and equal to heterosexuality. That way homosexuality gains through indoctrination at a young age. Your demand for evidence as to why homosexual marriage hurts heterosexual marriage fails before it leaves the starting blocks."

What do you mean when you say homosexuality is not equal to heterosexuality? Is American Football equal to soccer? No, they are not the same thing. But that does mean than one is letgitimate and one is not.

Yes, heterosexual sex can make babies and homosexual sex cannot, but not all sex creates babies, nor should it. And the existance of same sex marraige does not prevent or interfere with any heterosexual couple from getting married, having kids or raising a family.

So how does my demand for evidence of harm caused by same sex marriage fail? It only fails because no one can demonstrate any harm.

To du
"You're not an expert on being gay, and I doubt if you have enough association with being gay or being discriminated against..."

Are YOU an expert on 'being gay'? If so, how and why? Because you know a couple of gay people and because you trot out the correct party line?

"Case in point, creating an amendment to specifically place married gay couples into legal chaos for themselves and their families."

When was same-sex marriage EVER legal in the U.S.? The burden is on those who want to CHANGE the law.

What really irritates me is the way that folks like you shriek that anyone who doesn't agree must only care about statistics and ideology, but doesn't care about people. The fact is, it is the gay activists who don't care.

Ignoring very disturbing emotional health problems in the gay community, or tritely fobbing them off as the result of discrimination (though other discriminated groups don't suffer NEARLY the same rates) is obviously a case of putting the ideology ahead of any concern for the health and welfare of individuals.

While the activists scream about same-sex marriage, they turn their backs on the horrific rates of emotional pathology in the gay community.
They pretend, with no scientific basis, that it all stems from oppression; they ignore the causative link of childhood sexual abuse and later identification as homosexual; they ignore the fact that gay suicide rates are elevated in EVERY nation, including those far less judgemental than the U.S. is presumed to be.

In short, they turn their backs on the deaths and the misery of others because recognizing the misery's cause would harm their ideology.

Second to du
"You might as well be saying that black people have smaller craniums and big sexual organs..."

???????

"Sure, keep pointing a finger, keep showing how much you know about dry statistics and not actual people."

If the homosexual population is at high risk for various pathologies (and the studies certainly indicate that), then YOU are the hateful, uncaring one for pretending it isn't happening. I care enough about homosexual people as PEOPLE to not play partisan games of pretending that all is well when it is not.

To du
"You put up a statistic on black male suicide, the time frame you reference was about the advent of crack cocaine and it's exponential detriment to the progress of blacks in our society."

Irrelevant. Even at its highest, black male suicide was no higher than the constant rate of homosexual suicide. And the stats DID disprove your allegation about similar pathology between black females and gays. Don't you even remember the claim that I was refuting?

"And you just assumed sexual abuse from men in a household. I wasn't talking about sexual abuse, but mental and physical abuse. Straight men sometimes abuse their children they perceive are gay"

Fine. You'd prefer not to hear about links between homosexuality and sexual abuse. Got it.

"Did your little stats book inform you of how many gay CHILDREN are subject to mental and emotional disruption and risk for it within the most important formative structures?"

The stats suggested to me that children who are sexually abused BEFORE they've identified their sexual preference, are more likely to decide they are gay. I don't know of many six year olds who have identified the fact that they are gay. In fact, I don't know of any.

"But if there is more of it in the gay population, it IS because of how gay youth are treated early in their lives...not because homosexuality itself has any biological input into those pathologies."

You may dogmatically assert this all you like. By the way, in what field is your doctorate?


Dan, dudu
du, you still admonish posters about knowing about homosexuals. You are no expert yourself, in fact all you are is an apologist and a shill for homosexual militant causes. As a shill,

You have no credibility,

you make up what you want and demean anyone who has a contrary opinion. Your outlandish victim agenda posts are nothing more than unsupported, irrelevant psycho babble.

And to Dan,

Homosexuality is a behavior. That is why homosexuals want it taught in schools as legitimate, and equal to heterosexuality. That way homosexuality gains through indoctrination at a young age. Your demand for evidence as to why homosexual marriage hurts heterosexual marriage fails before it leaves the starting blocks.

Homosexual marriage is not comparable to heterosexual marriage, and your purpose is to redefine marriage in a manner you approve of, not what is beneficial to society.

Simple enough Dan?

also Tali2
You're not an expert on being gay, and I doubt if you have enough association with being gay or being discriminated against, to pass judgement on what that feels like or what it does over a long time.

The most constant occupation here is pointing out how flawed and difficult gay lives are...but without EVER dealing directly with life as a minority among people not only hostile to your existence, but who are capable of doing anything they can to make it extremely hard, if not impossible.

Case in point, creating an amendment to specifically place married gay couples into legal chaos for themselves and their families.

I again say that chronically pointing a finger, while not lifting one in support...says something about the real reason it keeps being done. The gay population can benefit and so can everyone at large, the same way ANYONE ELSE DOES.

So why make it all harder than it has to be?

If you're so convinced that homosexuality makes a person impossibly reprobate that marriage or any other affirming structures are lost on them...that is not a moral value.

It's never a moral value to keep someone from being included in the healthiest and most caring structures we have. If THEY reject it, that's different.
I'ts not moral to always criticize, but never help.

And it's not moral to gorge at the feast, while the starved are forced to watch you.

Fabius:
Well, istead of answering my questions you replied with insults.

Next I called you for saying that someone wants to codify some sort of activity as an eqivalent to a legal status between two people.

That's like saying "the governments and courts of the States of the United States of America are being forced by baseball fans to state that what baseball players to on the field should be codified into law as a “lease contract” equivalent to the lease contract between a sports franchise and a sporting venue." That's nonsensical.

You are confusing sexual activity with the legal contructs of marriage. They are not the same at all. Not all heterosexuals who have sex are married those who do have sex are not required to be married. Not all married heterosexuals have sex, nor are they required to by law.

Tali2long


You put up a statistic on black male suicide, the time frame you reference was about the advent of crack cocaine and it's exponential detriment to the progress of blacks in our society.

And you just assumed sexual abuse from men in a household. I wasn't talking about sexual abuse, but mental and physical abuse. Straight men sometimes abuse their children they perceive are gay.

Did your little stats book inform you of how many gay CHILDREN are subject to mental and emotional disruption and risk for it within the most important formative structures?

Heterosexuals suffer from depression, suicide risk and addiction too. Is that grounds for legal denial of getting married in that group?

But if there is more of it in the gay population, it IS because of how gay youth are treated early in their lives...not because homosexuality itself has any biological input into those pathologies.

You might as well be saying that black people have smaller craniums and big sexual organs so that's what makes them sexually aggressive and otherwise unintelligent.

You're buying into the same kind of irresponsible stereotypes that black people have yet to live down in some quarters.

Sure, keep pointing a finger, keep showing how much you know about dry statistics and not actual people.
Try and rationalize why ANY of it, is grounds for discrimination.
Because that's the point, neighbor.

Do we help, or constantly remind our gay neighbors about how many problems they have, instead of lifting the finger pointed at them to help their lives have more depth and meaning.





Who's Nonsensical?
"Now, the governments and courts of the States of the United States of America are being forced by Gay activist homosexuals to state that what homosexuals do in their bedrooms should be codified into law as a “marriage” equivalent to the real marriage of one man and one woman."

Huh????

The fact that you responded with my questions with sophmoric insults and your own nonsensical statements proves you have nothing intelligent to add.


Asked and asked again
Will some PLEASE intelligently expain the following:

Exactly how legalized same sex marriage would harm heterosexual merriages,

Exactly how legalized same sex marriage would cause heterosexuals to not marry people of the opposite sex they fall in love with,

Exactly how legalized same sex marriage would harm children.

Bonus Question: If your concern is to protect children from less-than-ideal family environments, then why would you not support banning heterosexual marriages that include

Alcoholics
Drug users
Convicted felons
Emotionally unstable people
Chronically unemployeed people
People whose careers require a lot of travel or very long hours
Military personal
Anyone else who might not be able to be an ideal parent?



To George
"You confuse two things: the rules and regulations of your religion, and the rules and regulations of the secular civil state we live in."

No problem: the rules and regulations of our religion were promulgated by God through inspired writers of the bible; these rules apply to Christians only.

The ruled and regulations of our secular civil state are promulgated through democratic processes by the voting public; these rules are incumbent upon everyone.

And the last time I checked, the voting public of some 29 states voted AGAINST same-sex marriage:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defense_of_marriage_am endments_to_U.S._state_constitutions_by_type


To du pt 2
Interestingly, whites in the U.S. are 2.5 times more likely to commit suicide than blacks. And let us remember that the suicide rate among black men is higher than among black women. Meanwhile, the rates of depression and suicide among homosexuals are well *above* the average. Therefore, your claim is obvious nonsense.

Further, 'From 1980 to 1995, the suicide rate for black youths... ages 10 to 19 increased 114 percent, from 2.1 to 4.5 percent. By 1998, however, the number of suicides in the black
male population, aged 15 to 24, had dropped and the number of black men who took their own lives returned to what it had been in the early 1980?s.'
Must we then believe that black suicide rose because discrimination and bigotry skyrocketed during this period, then magically diminished in 1998? No; the difference must be due to other factors, which shows how much other factors influence these things.

http://www.nopcas.com/articles/article_details.php?post_id= 8


"Did you know that children with abusive fathers do too?"

I do:
'In studies conducted by Diana Shrier and Robert Johnson in 1985 and 1988, males who had been sexually abused as children were almost seven times as likely as non-molested boys to become homosexuals.'

http://www.malaysiakini.com/letters/33373

'Substantiated sexual abuse was reported for 270 parents: 67 (69%) of 97 mothers and 148 (86%) of 173 fathers sexually abused girls; 30 mothers and 25 fathers sexually abused boys (i.e., 34% homosexually abused their charges).'

http://www.familyresearchinst.org/Default.aspx?tabid=61

To du pt 1
"You don't believe homosexuality is g has a biologically inherent component...but you KNOW homosexuality has genetic or biological implications for more depression..."

Not every choice we make is biologically or genetically based, yet every choice we make has implications for our physical, mental and emotional well-being. Most have neglible impact, of course.


"Did you know that black women share much of the same pathology so often asserted in this blog?"

'Black Americans have a lifetime prevalence rate of attempted suicide of 4.1%, similar to the general population rate of 4.6%... Epidemiological surveys suggest that the rate of mental illness among African- Americans is similar to that of Caucasians.'

statistics per the CDC:
http://www.sprc.org/library/black.am.facts.pdf


du, altighty then?
Your last post was the finest example of meaningless blather ever posted here at TH.

How in the world could you post that nonsense?

You have accomplished one thing. Articulating a response to that is hopeless in this format.

The redefinition of George
George, you redefine yourself, much as you and yours attmpt to do to marriage.

Sorry George, the analogy of alcohol does not cut it. That is historical trivia, and unrelated to the redefinition of marriage propsed by you homosexuals.

Why is it George that you take a portion of history totally unrelated to homosexuals, or marriage and somehow marry the two together and call it the same?

Homosexuals have every right any other citizen does. In no law I have ever found, has homosexuals been excluded from any rights or liberties enjoyed by any other citizen.

To say homosexuals are denied rights is a fabrication.

Marriage is denied to certain heterosexuals as well.

George, some tidbits for you
I fell into no trap. I feel comfortable with repeating study materials, and what I know in my faith. It makes me no self anointed expert.

I make no claims such as du does.

Mary McIntosh? Surely you are familiar with her George.

And as to homosexuals George. Yeah, I am well aware of their fears, pleasures, thoughts, etc. And what difference does it make George?

I had two cousins here in Arizona I grew up with in the 50s, 60s, and early 70s. Both were homosexuals. Both are dead of AIDS. I intervened for them in numerous problems they brought on themselves. And their homosexual friends were no different.

Both were in San Francisco in the mid 70s when the HIV began rolling. both paid the price.Both tried escaping San Fran in the early 80s, but it was too late.

I dont intend to debate trivia George, about what I would or can do. It does not matter.

What does matter is the core issues. Those issues are not about just you, or myself.

The issue is about the redefinition of marriage. The rest of your post is trivia, dedicated to engaging in endless debate. This is what you are after George. The rest is window dressing.

Lastly, stop denigrating Christians. If you do not believe fine, who are you to insult the beliefs of 85% of Americans because you disagree ?.


altighty then anderson
In most strict religious societies, GENDER and the role of it, has had something of an artificial construct. That is to say, that women have been placed in the inferior position in fundamentalist societies. In some cultures, that repression is brutal. Even here, for women to attain a more egalitarian status as taken up until recent decades. Attitudes, expression...even in sexuality that deviate from those ARTIFICIAL gender constructs have been actionable and punishable.

Homosexuality is more closely analogous to gender issues. It's a behavior aspect, to be sure...but gender is artificially construed as a MORAL one, with regard to the fusion of gender expression in sexuality, rather than one of orientation.
You have limited yourself on dealing with how societies deal with gender and expression in sexuality.

And why PUNISHMENT was ever necessary or evolved into another kind of segregation to force gender into a tight definition as ground for discrimination.


du- What???
In my posts,ridicule and derision?

A statement of audacity on your part. Ever read your posts du? Get real. You homosexual militants do not compromise or respect the rights or beliefs of others that disagree with you. You demean and belittle them at every turn.

Multiple links, evidence, and references have been posted to you on dozens of threads, you dismiss them all as biased, or some other label. Not once have you acknowledged any are indeed factual. Talk about derision.

You change gears when confronted. Right now, your suggestions about making life better are stalled for everyone.

Know why? There is a bright line. Cross it and if people feel you are denigrating, demeaning or modifying their beliefs, you will have more than a debate on your hands.

You have a version of what you and your homosexual militants want. You will settle for nothing less. That is something that will not go down very easy.

George on the constitution