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Wednesday, May 28, 2008
Dennis Prager :: Townhall.com Columnist
God, the Holocaust and a Pastor
by Dennis Prager
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Comments about God and the Holocaust made in a sermon 10 years ago by a leading evangelical pastor, John Hagee, have received a great deal of attention. They have led to Sen. John McCain severing ties with the pastor, whose support the presumptive Republican presidential nominee had originally solicited.

Pastor Hagee, a major supporter of the Jewish people and Israel, citing verses from Jeremiah, said: "How did it [the Holocaust] happen? Because God allowed it to happen. Why did it happen? Because God said 'my top priority for the Jewish people is to get them to come back to the land of Israel.'"

I am a God-believing, Torah-believing, religious (though not Orthodox) Jew, author of a book on Judaism and a book on anti-Semitism who does not agree with this theological explanation of the Holocaust.

But the notion that God willed the Holocaust is neither anti-Jewish nor even un-Jewish. There are, after all, only two possible explanations regarding God and the Holocaust:

1. God allowed it but did not will it.

2. God willed it.

This is simple logic.

Like most other people, I find neither explanation religiously or morally, let alone emotionally, satisfying. But both are Jewishly acceptable. There is a long tradition in Judaism that collective Jewish suffering is often God-willed. On the Jewish holy days, the central prayer (the Amidah) of the Jewish service contains a paragraph beginning: "Because of our sins we were exiled from our land."

The author of the biblical book Lamentations wrote, upon seeing the first destruction of Jerusalem and the accompanying mass slaughter of Jews: "The Lord is like an enemy; He has swallowed up Israel… He has multiplied mourning and lamentation" (Lam 2.5). And the Talmud, the holiest Jewish work after the Bible, says that that horrific event occurred because of "gratuitous hatred," i.e., Jews hated one another for no good reason.

As Rabbi Jakob Petuchowski, one of the greatest Jewish scholars of the 20th century, wrote: "Much of the national suffering of the people of Israel was explained by the biblical Prophets in terms of punishment meted out by God to a sinful people."

Regarding the Holocaust specifically, Ignaz Maybaum was a major 20th century Jewish theologian who identified "the Holocaust victims as vicarious sacrificial offerings for the redemption of humanity…"

We recoil at the thought of a just, good and loving God willing the mass murder of so many innocent people. But that belief is not necessarily anti-Semitic.

Moreover, the alternate view that God simply lets all this evil and cruelty go on isn't satisfying either. Whether God directed the Holocaust or just allowed it to happen, in either case, many Jews are angry with Him for that. Anger toward God (as well as love toward Him) has a long history even among devout Jews. Petuchowski cites a medieval prayer by 12th century Jewish poet Isaac bar Shalom, who, after a pogrom, changed one word in a Jewish prayer (from "elim" to "ilmim'). As a result, "Who is like you among the gods, oh Lord" became "Who is like you among the silent, oh Lord."

I have written my own beliefs about the reasons for the Holocaust and all of anti-Semitism in the book I co-authored with Rabbi Joseph Telushkin, "Why the Jews? The Reason for Antisemitism" (Simon & Schuster, paper, 2003). They are, in short, that the Holocaust, like all Jew-hatred, is an inevitable result of the hatred by the evil of the world of God's Chosen People, who introduced to humanity a morally demanding God who judges the behavior of every individual.

Whatever one's views, however, what Hagee once said in a sermon is completely unworthy of the condemnation that it has received from critics who are obviously motivated by politics rather than by truth. Forcing the man to deny he is an anti-Semite is like forcing a kind and decent man to deny he is a bank robber.

Hagee is one of the most pro-Jewish Christians alive. No living Christian has devoted more of his life to combating anti-Semitism. He has received death threats from anti-Semites, and they have attacked his home. To accuse such a man of anything anti-Jewish renders both truth and anti-Semitism meaningless. Calling people who help Jews anti-Semitic is a gift to real anti-Semites. With no exception I am aware of, those who imply some anti-Jewish animus in Hagee do so in order to undermine an evangelical conservative and to manufacture a right-wing equivalence to the America-cursing, race-based Rev. Jeremiah Wright.

But as Bill Donohue, the head of the Catholic League, who had been very critical of Hagee for his strong criticisms of the Catholic Church -- for its historical treatment of Jews, no less -- said of Hagee: "I found him to be the strongest Christian defender of Israel I have ever met, and that is why attempts to portray him as anything but a genuine friend to the Jews -- one for whom the Holocaust is the horror of horrors -- is despicable."

Why God allowed the Holocaust and other evils is a mystery. What is not a mystery is why some people on the left, including some Jews who care far more about the left than about Jews, smear a courageous and good Christian pastor.

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About The Author
Dennis Prager is a radio show host, contributing columnist for Townhall.com, and author of 4 books including Happiness Is a Serious Problem: A Human Nature Repair Manual.
 
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Caligula comments
Caligula, it takes eyes to see and ears to hear brother and obviously you have neither!

Looks like you are the one with his head
stubob: "WATCH THE ATHEISTS SCRAMBLE!
I just love it when we get one of these articles on religion to comment on.
We all get to sit back and watch all of these atheists scramble like roaches with the lights on. It's comical to read postings by will, caligula, stuart, mrbmrb and all the rest."

Stubob, you seem to have confused abhorrence of religious intolerance and down-right racism (against the Jews) with being an atheist. Or,is this just because you are another retarded born-again who thinks anyone of a different faith must be an atheist?


WATCH THE ATHEISTS SCRAMBLE!
I just love it when we get one of these articles on religion to comment on.

We all get to sit back and watch all of these atheists scramble like roaches with the lights on.

It's comical to read postings by will, caligula, stuart, mrbmrb and all the rest.

WOW! Too bad self-importance and bloviation can't be substitutes for IQ points.

A Covenant People
The House of Israel was made the Chosen People not because they were innately better than all others, but because they received God's law and covenanted to obey it.

My own faith, Mormonism, has not been subject to a holocaust, its people also were the object of the buffetings of Satan.

It seems that the forces of evil loosed on earth save their worst for those who have received much from God and haven't lived up to every letter. However, the other side of this covenant is, as explained in the Prophets, that God may withdraw his protection from his people when they stray, his hand is stretched out still in mercy if they will repent and return to the terms of the covenant.

Did Hagee say God caused the Holocaust?
I haven't heard or read the entire sermon, but I'm not aware that Hagee said that God caused the Holocaust, but that He used it. I see no problem with that attitude at all. The little I have seen of Hagee has shown him to be extremely pro-Israel and pro-Jew. I can only view this attack on him as an attempt to give McCain his own "Rev. Wright", and there is no genuine comparison here.

Gestell
Blah...blah...blah,such overt hatred from you and others like you.Why? Perhaps the psalmist is right it is really a hatred of God.Oh well that is above my pay grade.I find it hard to believe there are still so many people commenting on how stupid many Jews are.At best you and others here believe that many Jews must have their heads stuck where the sun dont shine.After all John Hagee has been honored by many heads of state of Isreal.As a matter of fact the possible next head of state of Isreal,is a personal friend of HAGEE.I wont say his name as i am afraid to even speak the name of a nazi lover.Did you know that HAGEE has a direct line to the defence minister of Isreal and can normally reach him at any time? Gee the big wigs in the media cant even do that.Boy,this man has really duped me,course thats easy, I only have a high school education.It is truly a shock to learn that 7,000,000 or so Jews are really nazi lovers.Well,as for me and my house,we shall follow the God of Abraham,Issac and Jacob.....

Misplaced loyalty
Mr. Prager is unable to recognize in the vile utterances of Rev. Hagee an anti-Jewish animus that rivals that of the Nazis. I've read a great deal of the anti-Jewish ranting of the Nazi era, but Rev. Hagee's comments stand out even among the utterances of Joseph Goebbels, Julius Streicher, and many others. I note that many TH readers agree with Hagee that God allowed the Jews to be murdered in order to force them to return to Israel. Why Prager can tolerate such an obscenity from Hagee is beyond me. I guess that from now on any time you see pictures of the piles of bodies in the death camps and read about the Holocaust, you'll just say a prayer to thank God for those deaths. Of course, we all know just how mysterious God's ways are, but that doesn't stop conservatives from finding something good to say about the Holocaust. I guess you guys know God a whole lot better than I do. Given your idea of what God does, I'm not sure I want to make His acquaintance.

evils
God allows evil because he gave us free will.when adam & eve ate from the tree God told them not to they brought evil into this world by disobedients.it was mans choice not God`s.God allows it because of free will to choose otherwise we would all be robots doing whatever we are told.we are free to choose to live w/ God or apart from God.

trughes
"And I want all the nutcases, murdering warmongers and medievalists declared dangerous."

Ah, liberal "tolerance"! As Ronald Reagan said, "Liberals will defend to the death your right to agree with them."

"the only country that does not have universal health care"

You liberals complain about our health care system. So you think the solution is to put it all in the nice, safe, efficient hands of -- the GOVERNMENT?????? Talk about being out of touch with reality!

If your mind is your church, it must be a very small congregation.

BLINDED BY CHOICE
AMEN

THE FACT IS THAT WITHOUT HITLER, THE HOLOCAUST AND GODS WILL AND PROTECTION, A JEWISH STATE MIGHT NEVER HAVE BEEN CREATED AND /OR EVEN EXIST TODAY. NO ONE CAN EXPLAIN GODS WORKINGS.

This is such BS
The neo-cons formed an alliance with the religious wing-nuts. Both of you Anti-american, hate-sucking, blood-spilling, a-human coalescences of evil and ignorance wanted to go to war in Iraq. The Jews (neo-cons) so America would now take full responsibility for their security and their imperialism, and the Religious nut-cases because they think it will hasten the end of the World.

Does anyone think those two ideas are consistant with the goals of the founding of this "once" great nation. I don't. And I want all the nutcases, murdering warmongers and medievalists declared dangerous.

Just look how out of touch with the civilized rest of the world America is right now, the only country that does not have universal health care, the only country that does not provide public transportation among the modern western countries. You wackos, starting with Raygun set back the course of civilization by 100 years.

And we are getting a little impatient with your arguments about Jesus. Just watch Zeitgeist. It explains Jesus.

Do you know that we wouldn't even have a country and most of the western world would probably still be ruled by Kings and Queens if it hadn't been for Thomas Paine, a Deist, who said, "My own mind is my own church."

Go check yourselves into a Zoo. And throw the keys outside. You're that valuable to the advancement of humanity.

Clarification
When I said "Biblically accurate" I meant that God knew full well what the Jews would go through, went through, and will go through.

He knows this for everyone and every nation, ahead of time.

This does not mean I agree with Hagee's teachings, or his view of history.

McCain is still a quisling for his treatment of Pastor Hagee.

God and the Holocaust
The Old Testament (including the Books of Moses) repeatedly cite examples of God's anger at His chosen people for their stiff-necked resistance to His laws, His love. History corroborates the numerous times Israel, the people, have been persecuted, enslaved and defeated in battle...the Bible merely states why. While those among us with latter-day sensitivities and a post-modern rejection of His authority recoil at a JUST God who chastises, we must also remember that He uses such "fire" to purify His beloved ones.

Monique
do you think you are not reading the scripture from Romans 11 in a wooden way of reading it?

"all Israel shall be saved"?

Tell me is not Israel here not all the redeemed of the Lord? And who makes up all the redeemed? What did Paul say who are the Jews back in the beginning of the first chapters of Romans?

Atheists dumber than ANIMALS, FISH,BIRDS
The bible says that human beings that don't believe in God are actually in need of SCHOOLING FROM ANIMALS, BIRDS, AND FISH!

"Ask the animals, and they will teach you. Ask the birds of the sky, and they will tell you.

Speak to the earth, and it will instruct you. Let the fish of the sea speak to you.

They all know that the Lord has done this.

For the life of every living thing is in his hand, and the breath of all humanity.

Just as the mouth tastes good food, so the ear tests the words it hears.

Wisdom belongs to the aged, and understanding to those who have lived many years.

"But true wisdom and power are with God; counsel and understanding are his.

What he destroys cannot be rebuilt. When he closes in on someone, there is no escape.

If he holds back the rain, the earth becomes a desert. If he releases the waters, they flood the earth.

"Yes, strength and wisdom are with him; deceivers and deceived are both in his power.

He leads counselors away stripped of good judgment; he drives judges to madness.

He removes the royal robe of kings. With ropes around their waist, they are led away.

He leads priests away stripped of status; he overthrows the mighty.

He silences the trusted adviser, and he removes the insight of the elders.

He pours disgrace upon princes and confiscates weapons from the strong.

"He floods the darkness with light; he brings light to the deepest gloom.

He raises up nations, and he destroys them. He makes nations expand, and he abandons them.

He takes away the understanding of kings, and he leaves them wandering in a wasteland without a path.

They grope in the darkness without a light. He makes them stagger like drunkards.

Job 12:7-25


Hagee believes Isaiah 62 & rightly so
Isa 62:6-7
O Jerusalem, I have posted watchmen on your walls; they will pray to the Lord day and night for the fulfillment of his promises. Take no rest, all you who pray.

Give the Lord no rest until he makes Jerusalem the object of praise throughout the earth.

********************************************


Right on Dennis!
As a Zionist, I feel Dennis is RIGHT and he knows his stuff. I've known John Hagee for 5 years and he is the BEST FRIEND OF ISRAEL to the chagrin of many non-Zionist Chistians. And most all Zionists know this. For McCain to come out and slam Hagee, just shows how ill-informed McCain is, and frankly made McCain look silly.

Another thing Hagee believes: EMPHASIS ON "ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED" not because of any armegeddon thing, but BECAUSE THEY ARE THE CHOSEN PEOPLE OF GOD, PERIOD!

Rom 11:25
I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters,so that you will not feel proud and start bragging. Some of the Jews have hard hearts, but this will last only until the complete number of Gentiles comes to Christ.

Rom 11:26
And so all Israel will be saved. Do you remember what the prophets said about this? "A Deliverer will come from Jerusalem,and he will turn Israel from all ungodliness.

AND

Rom 11:28
...Yet the Jews are still his chosen people because of his promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
******************************

The Jews are the chosen people of God, if you don't like it, take that up with God!


Thanks, Dennis.
I really appreciated this post and the fairness with which you handled the subject.

garryg24 and other atheists
DP: “There are, after all, only two possible explanations regarding God and the Holocaust:”

garryg24: “Number 3 - God had nothing to do with the Holocaust because He's not there to have anything to do with anything. You're just not thinking clearly Dennis!”


Garry you write in a witty yet smugly condescending style. But where you, and other atheistic posters here, really fall short is in reading comprehension. The 2 possible explanations concerned the relationship between two entities, God and the Holocaust. Your explanation Number 3 has only one entity as you have made God a non-entity.

Personally I think this error happens because of your, and other atheistic posters, zeal and haste to declare God is dead. The saddest point is that you missed the real issue of Dennis’ article… No, I’m wrong. You don’t miss it. But you can not acknowledge it. That is why you instead declare God is dead while ignoring the truth of the matter, which is:

“… to manufacture a right-wing equivalence to the America-cursing, race-based Rev. Jeremiah Wright.”

Obvious to all!

Disparaging God…

To say that the physical descendants of Abraham are the chosen people of God in the New Covenant Age is to disparage God. What does God say to His covenant people…

You shall be named the priests of the LORD,
They shall call you the servants of our God…
Instead of your shame you shall have double honor…Everlasting joy shall be theirs.

“For I, the LORD…will make with them an everlasting covenant.
Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles,
And their offspring among the people.
All who see them shall acknowledge them,
That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed.”

And what do the covenant people say to their God…

I will greatly rejoice in the LORD,
My soul shall be joyful in my God;
For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
He has covered me with the robe of righteousness…
For as the earth brings forth its bud,
As the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth,
So the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations. [from Isaiah 61]


Now those who know the New Covenant revelation should recognize this language. In some of the kingdom parables Jesus Christ used the same metaphor to describe the progress of His kingdom, a kingdom made up of men from every nation, believing Jews and Gentiles.

Response to 'Caligula'
'Caligula' wrote: "Funny, since by entering into this jolly little war of George II, we have caused hundreds of thousands of murders."
---

To correct, the highest, most biased estimate of Iraqi deaths following the U.S. led overthrow of Saddam's govt. can be found at iraqbodycount.org. They estimate 84,051 - 91,714 civilian deaths. Several items not readily available - the number of these deaths from al qaeda, the number of deaths that were not truly 'civilian' (that is, deaths caused bu armed Sunni or Shia insurgents), or any comparison to the numbers of deaths caused by Hussein in comparable stretches of pre-war time (some estimates are 600,000 Iraqi civilian deaths attributed to Husseins' orders alone). When folks lik 'Caligul' throw out inaccurate unsupported numbers empty of meaning (and empty of nuance) it is clear they are idealogically driven, factually compromised, and therefore completely untrustworthy.

mrb
writes, "most germans in the second world war were christians."

changing history makes it easier to make a point doesn't it.

writes, "suppose...suppose...suppose...suppose..."

why sir, you are a great man of faith, founding so many of your opinions on so many suppositions.

I pray you could see and know the love of God...Jesus is the most demonstration of God's love for mankind. Don't let a violent, seemingly unfair world rob you of the reality of God's clear revelations of His goodness and compassion for you and I.

Caligula
I didn't bother to respond to your nonthinking throw away mud throwing line but a friend is angry at me for not, so for the sake of my friend:
1) Go look up the word "murder". You use words without knowing what they mean.
2) What do you mean by hundreds of thousands of murders? There is a difference between death and kill and murder.There are different laws that apply to war than to peace.
3) There was one point when there were more murders taking place in Washington DC than in Baghdad.
4) Error by omission: that you fail to mention that Pres Bush liberated something like 50 million people.
5) Who is doing the killing? The majority of deaths are Al Quaeda killing Iraquis.

But you are used to talking to fellow Leftists who buy the kind of excrement statements you are used to throwing, summarized as "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore", overlook the facts, use words as if they are meaningless, a feeling based non thinking insubstantial statement, backed up by nothing. But you made a big noise, like a rooster, or like people who run loud motorboats and think they are bigger because they are making a big noise, so you are happy with yourself.





praeger


you are sttill the most intellectually dishonest person i have ever heard. you are not as crazy as DoC Savage, but that doesnt mitigate against the fact that the above is true. Can forgive Doc a little because hes nuts but not you, unless you are clever enough to hide it ver well. HMMMMMM i have to consider that

Why did God allow the Holocaust?
This is admittedly a very difficult question to wrestle with, but my take is that God's allowing the Holocaust to happen has to do with one of His attributes:omniscience. He knew it would happen, but allowed it as He has allowed all forms of evil to have taken place. However, I believe that in His omniscience, He knew that man's hatred of the Jews would reach to such depths as to resulting in a desire to completely annihilate the Jews, but He would bring bring good out of it, namely the state of Israel. I'm not saying that He needed the Holocaust to do that, only that He would ultimately not allow the Jews to be completely destroyed and also bring about a good from it.
As to questioning why God allows such evils, I think He does so because if God is to stop one evil, then He would have to stop all evils immediately, God being holy and just. That would mean stopping evil in each and every one of us and facing His justice. He has instead decided to hold ultimate justice for after we pass on from this life onto next.

The problem is not Hagee's theology.
What he said isn't antisemitic, but it is grossly inaccurate historically and politically. The assumption Hagee makes is that Israel wouldn't exist except for the Holocaust. Not only is that false, it feeds into a major myth of the hate Israel crowd: that Israel is the West's recompense to the Jews because of Holocaust guilt, leading to the argument that the Palestinians shouldn't have to pay for the crimes of Europe. There's a big enough reality gap out there without Hagee feeding it, even if inadvertently. There's a problem if McCain buys into Hagee's political history.

McCain the Quisling

What is most important to us, today, is that McCain--in his classic, ruthless, McCain fashion--smeared Hagee based on the ignorant protests of Jews who were offended by Hagee's accurate Biblical remarks about the Jews.

McCain is a ruthless monster who will stop at nothing to acquire ultimate power. Hagee is another person McCain stepped on to get it.

Prager and Hagee
I'm not exactly a fan of John Hagee. I find him a loud, obnoxious preacher who doesn't seem to expect his congregation to ask questions or demand answers. He's not alone in that; some people like those sorts of pastors. I have my own pastor and, more importantly, my Bible which I can study for myself, so I don't spend a lot of time listening to John Hagee's sermons.

What I do know about John Hagee and what I've recognized about Dennis Prager is these men, though they represent two seperate faith-traditions, are willing to listen to one another. They don't always agree and that's not wrong. They are often looking at things from different perspectives. When John Hagee talks about Israel, you can tell he's studied Israel. He knows what he's talking about. Whatever his motives for doing so, he has actually taken the time to base his support of Israel on facts. Similarly, Dennis Prager speaks with respect for Christian beliefs and our faith foundations. He doesn't just assume that he knows what we believe. He's taken the time to find out what we believe.

Sadly, many people don't bother to do that and then turn around and make disparaging remarks about Hagee and Prager, sometimes in the same post, when they themselves haven't even bothered to find out what these men stand for.

I love the assumptions!
I pointed this out yesterday on Doug Giles' article, but it bears repeating. Many non-Christians are extremely ignorant of what Christians believe and hold dear, yet they seem very confident of their assertions that -- among other things -- we want a theocracy in US, we want all the Jews to move to Israel to usher in the Rapture of the Christian Church, we hate Jews because they killed Jesus, we love Jews only because we see them as the door to the end times, ... I could go on, but I think I make my point.

Fact is, most of you haven't got a clue what evangelical Christians believe. You likely never will because you get your take on what we believe from the MSM, questionable websites, the Huffington Post, and Richard Dawkins. I am absolutely amazed at what many non-Christians believe about my beliefs, yet when I pin them down, I find out I'm the only Christian they know. They hear sound-bites of John Hagee's sermons or an off-the-cuff remark by some Christian leader who got pounced on as he was picking up the morning paper at the curb. They catch a story about the pastor of "I formed my own church by buying the land and preaching to my inbred relatives" doing something un-Christlike and assume that's the rest of us. And, for the most part, you folks are uninterested in the truth. If we correct you and say, hey, that's not what we believe at all, you launch into a diatribe of far-ranging subjects, demanding answers for side issues like why God allowed the Israelites to "wipe out" the Amalekites back in David's day. It's not that the question isn't pertinent, but it's not central and while we're wasting time on side issues, you never do really find out what we really believe.

They say ignorance is bliss! Making assumptions does allow you to be assured of your information for want to verifying it, I suppose.

p.r. really
Nostrodomus and Darwin, do people still believe them, I thought the world is waiting for an Alien to tell us the meaning of all this.

Is. 59:14 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.

JimP
don't be ridiculous...we would rather look to the likes of Nostrodamus who has a success rate of around 4% in predicting the future.

I know that over 90% of Daniel's prophecies have been fulfilled so far, but that is just a coincidence and should be eternally ignored...and for that book of Revelation, now, in light of the reliability of the OT prophecies should we really read that book which speaks of so many things yet to come?

And, while we are on the subject, there are approx. 300 OT prophecies about the person and work of Jesus Christ that happened and are happening just as they were said hundreds of years prior to His coming--we should ignore those too though, but thanks for your input.

I'll stick with Nostrodamus and Darwin, they seem to make more sense--huh???

1 Cor. 1:15 "for the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stonger than man's strength."


Just a smidgen,
of knowledge of Prophecy, re: Daniel & Revalation can give a first grader more understanding about what God does and is doing that all the godless intellectuals on this site put together. How so? God has told everyone. Gee whiz.

Read the Bible. It's a good thing to do. In fact, God, Himself, promises a blessing to who reads and heeds the book of Revalation.

another truly good Jew said,
"I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me iwll never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." --Jesus (John 8:12)

will
since one of the primary tenents of post-modern thought is that we cannot be certain of anything, are you certain that post was foolish?

king writes
"without a belief in God, a person can't have wisdom."

I know you disagree with this statement but you aren't considering the context at all. Dennis believes in God, as I do. The Bible itself declares that there is no wisdom apart from the knowledge of God...also, that "the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom."

Dennis is merely explaining a truth passed down to us through God Himself. In light of the reality of God's person, how could any wisdom be accredited to the life of a person who spends their days denying His reality...there is none. The Proverbs implore us to pursue wisdom...but belief in the revealed God of the Bible is the starting point...always. It is a perspective set in eternity and with eternal value. Don't understand it as a cut-down or devaluing of you as a person. I believe Dennis explains this truth with great compassion and love for his fellow man...as would I.

p.r.
That is the most foolish post. There is no such thing as "postmodern rhetoric".


Hagee is being defended by a good Jew
That, alone, should shut up those who are accusing a fine man of anti-semitism. It won't, but it should.

great article Dennis
Thank you for standing up for truth and exposing the anti-intellectual arguments of so many in our nation.

Those who call Haggee an anti-Semite prove themselves to be religious nuts--and, they hang themselves on the noose of postmodern rhetoric.

Holocaust
MAN HAS A FREE WILL. GOD DOES NOT FORCE HIS WAYS ON US. WE ARE NOT ROBOTS. THE QUESTION IS NOT IF GOD WILLED, OR 'ALLOWED' IT, BUT THAT IT HAPPENED AS A RESULT OF MAN'S SINFUL CHOICES. (I GUESS YOU COULD SAY GOD 'ALLOWED' IT BY GIVING MAN FREE WILL.)GOD IS A GOOD, LOVING GOD. THE AUTHOR OF LIFE, NOT DEATH.

It seems
That God holds Israelis to a HIGHER STANDARD because hey are his CHOSEN PEOPLE! On numerous occasions in The Bible, Gods tells Jews what WILL happen if they go against his instructions. Throughout the Old Testament the Redemption of The Jews is a recurring theme.

Prager's
...take in the first half of his essay was refreshing. Rather than the reflexive shouting of "jooohater!" he and others usually enjoy, he examines the theological basis for Hagee's remarks (though he left out two other possibilities -- God was on coffee break for a decade or so mid-century, or he just doesn't exist).
As for antisemitism being "hatred of God himself," the pretentiousness of such an idea is truly offensive. And support of Israel is no more a conservative virtue than support of Sweden or Swaziland. I'd prefer more Jews in America, and fewer in Israel.

The third possibility
Hagee is unimportant is all this. He's nothing more than a self-righteous nut-case.

What is important is that you, Dennis, missed the most obvious and most likely possibility in the "God allowed/God willed" the Holocaust argument.

Number 3 - God had nothing to do with the Holocaust because He's not there to have anything to do with anything.

You're just not thinking clearly Dennis!

The third possibility
Hagee is unimportant is all this. He's nothing more than a self-righteous nut-case.

What is important is that you, Dennis, missed the most obvious and most likely possibility in the "God allowed/God willed" the Holocaust argument.

Number 3 - God had nothing to do with the Holocaust because He's not there to have anything to do with anything.

You're just not thinking clearly Dennis!

Doctrine,
Mr. Prager has it right about the root of Anti-semitism. It is hatred of God. He needs to take this truth 2,000 years upto date. It is hatred of Christ. Christ's words are, "They hated me without cause, ' said to the Jews.

God had come in the flesh.

Just this truth generates hatred across all racial and ethnic lines.

But Pastor Hagee has taken Prophecy beyond its interpretive boundries, hence his troubles.

The promises made to Israel will be fulfilled by God's own hand regardless of Israel's 'friends.' The greatest favor for the Jewish people or any people for that matter is to hear the simple gospel.

'God so loved the world, that He gave His only unique son, that who so ever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.'

It's time for backing down ...
I am neither Jewish or Protestant, but as a Catholic, I share a linear historical/theological kinship with both Prager and Hagee.

Additionally, I also have done my share of Hagee bashing mostly because of what I believe to be his mistaken views about Israel and of course, and certainly not least, his expressed views towards (Roman) Catholicism. I've yet to hear of any statements attributed to him concerning any of the Eastern-Rite Catholic Churches especially the Greek and Russian Orthodox branches. (When the old "whore of Babylon" is trotted out, you can always count on the Vatican as the "usual suspect.")

I forgive the Rev. Hagee for his mistake with regard to my Church. But I'd prefer to leave it to Dennis Prager and his Jewish brethern, plus history, to forgive the Texas pastor for his remarks about the Holocaust and its relationship to Israel's founding. (And, though from a theological and moral imperative, I have to forgive Sen. McCain for his role in the Hagee-McCain endorsement dust-up in the wake of Rev. Hagee's comments about Catholicism, I hope others will forgive me for being a little slow in my inability to understand why McCain was so slow to more forcefully condemn the reverend's remarks about Catholicism and cut his ties; which was inevitably done in gentlemanly fashion--but still too slowly.

But in fairness to Rev. Hagee, I think his enthusiasm for Israel, which is commendable, sometimes gets in the way of his abilities to express this in a clearer way.

Well, in respects to any of us who feel passionately about something close to our hearts -- haven't we all something to confess about in this respect? ( Now let's see if I can find a very patient priest with a week to spend listening to just my literary sins!)

GDS
Obviously, mrbmrb has GDS (G-d derangement syndrome).
It's useless to debate anything about G-d or the Scriptures with anyone that has GDS, because their hate blinds them.

Excellent column today, Mr. Prager!
Wether one agrees explicitely with Pastor Hagee is irrelevant, because it's apparent that he isn't an anti-Semite.
And for commenters to claim he only loves Israel because he believes Armaggedon will happen there is the height of ignorance.

Kudos to Prager
Frankly, I don't give a hoot about John Hagee. I'm a traditional Calvinist who sees "Israel", the focus of God's covenantal love, as the Christian Church (whether Jew or Gentile--see Paul's letters for explanations). I do not hold to a view that the Middle East is the eschatological focus of the divine purposes, even though I am pro-Israel.

However, Dennis Prager is to be congratulated on calling attention to some of the things the Bible actually says. One of the big differences between Judaism and Christianity on the one hand and Islam on the other is that the first two have the Lamentations of Jeremiah in their sacred canons and really shouldn't engage in the "who did this to us?" conspiracy theorizing so prevalent in Islam (although, alas, too many Christians engage in it, too).
God can be and sometimes is severe with His church--and we sometimes deserve it.

As for the Shoah, it happened, it was a great evil, and the survivors should have been and should be treated with compassion. It was right and proper that many of the perps got hanged. But if God is the providential governor of history, it should stand as a reminder to all of us that unless we repent, we may likewise perish.

god and the holocaust
One other possibility Dennis or two really.

3. god neither willed it nor did he just allow it to happen. perhaps he enjoyed it. after all he is the god who said what =he said in Deuteronony 15 1-10 and the instigator of the slaughter of more people perhaps than any human dictator. literally millions have been slain either directly by him (he seems to get off on first born sons for some reason---any thoughts Dennis---you seeen to know the Bible so well) or by his command or by sitting by wathing with his finger in his--well i dont even know if hes got one. if he does he uses it to dump on his people.
the final possibility if the he doesnt exist and therefore humans are to blame for what humans did. what a very novel idea.

A Matter of Trust?
Dennis Prager's explanations are probably as good as explanations get. However, if one reads the seriously written histories of the Jewish experience, one wonders how any Jew can trust anything from the mouth of a Christian -- concerning the welfare of the Jewish people.

But then, In Prager's explanation of John Hagee's position, it is not a matter of trust. It is a matter of finding Hagee's position on on the Jew's situation at the "Last Day" a worthy one -- at least for anyone Jewish.

When challenged on the worthiness of this particular position, Prager often says, "Well, that's his belief."

Quite mysterious, indeed.



Hmmm
Dennis should really go really go dig into what Pastor Hagee has wrote and said. He wants all the Jewish people to move back to Israel so in his view of Revelation then there is the rapture of the church and then a big blood bath will happen. The guy is a nut case.

The Holocaust
Here's a couple of essays I had written about the Holocaust and some of the heroes who had stood against the Nazis, risking their lives to help the Jewish people escape and/or survive the horror that Hitler unleashed.

If you would like to read them, just copy and paste the following links.

Enjoy!

http://fountainabbey.blogtownhall.com/2008/04/28/remember_t he_holocaust__part_two_-_heroes.thtml

http://fountainabbey.blogtownhall.com/2008/05/12/remember_t he_holocaust_part_4__death_of_a_hero.thtml

Will #3 and Caligula #9-11
Well said both.

Stuart

Why the Holocaust?
To answer this question, I choose to use the answers by Rabbi Harold Kushner, who wrote "Why Bad Things Happen to Good People". The question was asked of Kushner "Where was God in Auschwitz? How could He have permitted the Nazis to kill so many innocent men, women and children?" Kushner's reply was "It was not God who caused this, it was caused by human beings choosing to be cruel to their fellow men." He further says in his book "To try to explain the Holocaust as God's will is to side with the executioner rather than with his victim and to claim that God does the same." Later in his book he says "Why didn't God intervene to stop it?" His answer is "He was with the victims, and not with the murderers, but He does not control man's choosing between good and evil."

By the Ocean
"Now they are pushing for the US to get out of Iraq which will result in hundreds of thousands of murders. What will be their response?"

Funny, since by entering into this jolly little war of George II, we have caused hundreds of thousands of murders.

What I forgot to add...
...is that the area's Muslims will be automatically dead meat (sub-humans to the born agains), as well as Bill Donohue's Catholics. We won't even discuss their opinion on Buddhists, Hindus, Pagans, Wiccans, Orthodox Christians, mainstream Protestants, etc.

Friend of the Jews?
These so called friends only defend Israel because they expect the End Times to happen there, and when their ten foot tall Jesus returns to fight the Antichrist, they believe you will all either convert to whacko envangelical Christian thinking, or be killed. You really ought to do some research about who you get into bed with.

Part of the Problem
I have listened many times to the sermons of John Hagee. Part of the problem when listening to him is that he ventures into the "story" rhelm when talking. When he does this he enhances scripture with his own words rather than letting the scriptures do their own telling. I have disagreed with many of the things he says because the story he has added isn't in the Bible and he wasn't there when the particular scriptures were given. It is a dangerous practice and people tend to remember the "story" and quote it as scripture instead of Pastor Hagee's own words. This is really confusing in a world where truth is in short supply anyway.

the scene as a whole
Every time the Left finds itself in a mess, they take the words that could be used to describe that mess and fling them at Republicans. First it was that since Clinton was found to be a liar, they came up with the slogan that Bush lied. Now that Rev Wright has been shown to be hate- filled, they turn around and fling the accusation at Hagee. So predictable. Now they are pushing for the US to get out of Iraq which will result in hundreds of thousands of murders. What will be their response? To turn to Republicans and call them murderers, or course.


PS
Also, did people see in the news that Jewish Israelis cam out in support of Hagee and objected to the attacks on him and the depiction of him as an antiSemite? probably not. Our US media is such a disappointment.



talent scout
If you are interested in what Prager has to say, why don't you go to his Online Store and click on Bible Courses and order Deuteronomy or call the number listed there 1.800.225.8584 and order, which I find easier. Regarding Paul and the Apostles, as far as I know from what Prager has stated, he does not comment on other people's theology.
However you did choose interesting passages.





Let's shed light not heat...
Dennis,

Thanks for your important and powerful defense of Pastor Hagee. The good Pastor is a philo-Semite of the top rank - a righteous Gentile.

Hagee detractors, please inform yourselves by reading, "Standing With Israel - Why Christians Support The Jewish State", by David Brog with a foreward by John Hagee.

You will learn the difference between the old anti-Semitic Christian "Replacement" theology and the newer philo-Semitic Christian "Dispensationalist" theology.

Simply put, in the old view, Christians replaced the Jews as the covenantal people while in the newer view G-d covenants with the Jews as well as the Christians.

Now go and study...

Hagee is a dangerous zealot.
Hagee is a Christian Zionist who views Israel as a giant staging ground for Armaggedon, as foretold in the christian Book of Revelations.

See, folks, this is what happens when these biblical parables & mythologies are taken literally. Freaks start dictating foreign policy based on ancient religious material.

Dennis writes:
Why God allowed the Holocaust and other evils is a mystery.
----

I have always wondered why it seems to remain a mystery.

Gives me fear just reading the 28th Chapter of Deuteronomy beginning with the 15th verse through verse 68.

I would like to hear Dennis Prager's opinion on some of the Apostles Pauls writings.
Especially Romans 11th Chapter.
I wonder if he would consider writing something about this chapter from his perspective.




Mean-Spirited Attacks!
How very sad that such a good man is being smeared. Calling John Hagee, who is a friend to the Jews, an "anti-Semite" is a complete lie! I am familiar with his work to help the Jewish people and the events called "A Night To Honor Israel" that he has held to raise money to help Jewish people.

A special thank you to Dennis for defending his good name!
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